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Tomenable
05-04-18, 23:17
Finally got my results today, what do you think? Pretty interesting.

Pashtun proves a link between Balto-Slavs and Indo-Iranic people:

https://i.imgur.com/2zL1NR9.png

https://i.imgur.com/vXp6TLi.png

Tomenable
06-04-18, 03:11
Any thoughts/comments?

Salento
06-04-18, 03:58
Any thoughts/comments?

Nice Results, do you mind if I ask you what specific Countries are Part of Pannonia for LivingDNA? Thanks

Tomenable
06-04-18, 04:11
Nice Results, do you mind if I ask you what specific Countries are Part of Pannonia for LivingDNA? Thanks

Dark green in the map below is what they show as Pannonia.

So as you can see this covers Hungary, Slovakia, Eastern Austria and part of Czech Republic:

https://i.imgur.com/4BftzPV.png

Admittedly it is a bit weird to group them together. It crosses many ethno-linguistic etc. lines.

Also it is quite obvious that their British-Irish references are much better than continental European references. Which is probably why they overestimate British-Irish (there is no way I have 18% of actual, real British-Irish ancestry during recent generations, most likely it shows some remote genetic links, for example the Unetice culture, or Iron Age Celts, etc.).

I helped Maciamo with the map of Polish regions and with the description of Historical context:

https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/regional_dna_project_poland.shtml

Since my grandparents were born within 80 km from each other, they will add me to their regional Polish references.

Salento
06-04-18, 04:14
That’s really cool. Thank you very much.

Tomenable
06-04-18, 04:14
Have you seen any Italian results? I wonder how big are North-South differences.

Salento
06-04-18, 04:20
I saw a tweet that the DNA Project should go live by June or early.

Tomenable
06-04-18, 04:23
I saw a tweet that the DNA Project should go live by June or early.

What do you mean? It is already in progress, AFAIK. BTW in Poland there is another project (by our local geneticists) going on, called "The Genetic Map of Poland". Something similar to that POBI study in Britain and Ireland. I can tell you based on my experience (seeing DNA results of Polish people from various regions) that Poles are nowhere near as homogeneous as some studies have indicated. The reason why those studies found Poles to be homogeneous, is because they collected all of their autosomal samples from one region of Poland - Masovia. Generally they are all using samples from Behar 2013.

Tomenable
06-04-18, 04:25
Kuschniarevich 2015 used the same Polish samples as Behar 2013, AFAIK.

Those were 11 ethnic Poles from Estonia and a dozen or so from Masovia.

==============

Yeah, there is a Polish minority in Estonia and Latvia, our former lands:

https://s29.postimg.org/d2a22r0ed/Commonwealth_2.png

http://s7.postimg.org/9gr4bznuz/Figure_properties.png

https://s8.postimg.org/gr05s1i2b/Map_properties.png

http://s11.postimg.org/5fd25jawj/Table_8.png

But most of them are in Southern Latvia (historically Polish Livonia):

https://i.imgur.com/5v1Aqki.jpg

One of Poland's ministers is from there, and no, she is not Russian:

https://i.imgur.com/vQaIhQE.png

Born in Daugavpils: http://www.mf.gov.pl/image/journal/article?img_id=6050997&t=1498636581966

Salento
06-04-18, 04:31
Have you seen any Italian results? I wonder how big are North-South differences.
I get South Italy 27.1 Tuscany 21.7, and Sardinia 2.2. No North Italy, but I get France, GB, and others.

Tomenable
06-04-18, 04:34
I get South Italy 27.1 Tuscany 21.7, and Sardinia 2.2. No North Italy, but I get France, GB, and others.

No Aegean ???

Salento
06-04-18, 04:41
No Aegean ???
8.2 Aegean
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=525291
I was thinking of the One Family One World Project
https://www.livingdna.com/one-family

Gabriele Pashaj
07-04-18, 11:44
Hi Tomenable! I see that you have a very fragmented ancestry... I did not know that a polish could score a high north western ancestry ...

Maciamo
07-04-18, 19:15
Very interesting results, Tomenable. You are really at the crossroads of Europe genetically.

At the moment the British & Irish ancestry for anyone who has no known ancestry from that region should be interpreted as either Germanic or Celtic. In your case I'd say that you have 4.1% relating to continental Celtic ancestry (Cornwall + South Wales) and the rest mostly Germanic (except maybe NW Scotland, which might be mixed Celtic and Norse). Belgian, Dutch and Northwest German people always score very high on South England and East Anglia, so that clearly represents Saxon and Frankish ancestry.

kingjohn
08-04-18, 21:28
Finally got my results today, what do you think? Pretty interesting.

Pashtun proves a link between Balto-Slavs and Indo-Iranic people:

https://i.imgur.com/2zL1NR9.png

https://i.imgur.com/vXp6TLi.png

cool results :)
i see you don't score france , iberia , and south italy
other than that you pretty much have all the european regions lol

Tomenable
21-07-18, 19:13
Very interesting results, Tomenable. You are really at the crossroads of Europe genetically.

At the moment the British & Irish ancestry for anyone who has no known ancestry from that region should be interpreted as either Germanic or Celtic. In your case I'd say that you have 4.1% relating to continental Celtic ancestry (Cornwall + South Wales) and the rest mostly Germanic (except maybe NW Scotland, which might be mixed Celtic and Norse). Belgian, Dutch and Northwest German people always score very high on South England and East Anglia, so that clearly represents Saxon and Frankish ancestry.

I'm also waiting for my parents' LivingDNA results, but in their cases I only transferred their raw data files from FTDNA (while for myself, I bought their DNA kit and the results posted in the OP are based on their own raw data).

Lately I bought DNA Tribes for my parents', and it seems that this British-Irish influence in my LivingDNA results must be mostly from my father's side, while Germanic and Ugro-Finnic influence mostly from my mother's side.

Here are my dad's DNA Tribes results:

https://i.imgur.com/VABV7v0.png

^^^ This Celtic-like influence is also visible in his Eurogenes K15:

First 4-Ancestors Oracle, then Mixed Mode from standard Oracle:

https://i.imgur.com/cTPzLnt.png

Irish, Scottish, and Welsh also shows up in his MyHeritage (but a lower percent):

https://i.imgur.com/82myP6a.png

=====

On the other hand, my mom is showing a Scandinavian or Northern Germanic type of admixture (which I kind of expected based on surnames in her family tree), as well as some kind of Baltic or Finnic (Latvia, Estonia, Northern Sweden, Finland) admixture:

https://i.imgur.com/OpzxpTv.png

My mother's Eurogenes K15 results also confirm this type of admixture:

4-Ancestors Oracle gives her 2 x Slavic + 1 x Mordvin + 1 x Scandinavin:

https://i.imgur.com/Kp98zJU.png

And my mom's MyHeritage results below:

https://i.imgur.com/w53Pjvj.png

As a side note - I wonder which part of Ukraine is "Ukrainian" sample in Eurogenes K15 from? Eurogenes K15 has in total 3 Ukrainian samples - one from Belgorod, one from Lviv and one which is labeled just "Ukrainian" without any specific info about its regional origin. What I find strange is that this "Ukrainian" sample is actually the most genetically "western" of the three - even more "western" than the Ukrainian_Lviv sample - which is surprising. You can see this in the K15 Spreadsheet on GEDmatch (compare percentages of North_Sea, Atlantic, West_Med etc. admixtures for Ukrainian_Lviv, Ukrainian_Belgorod and Ukrainian samples - unsurprisingly Belgorod is the most Eastern genetically).

Ukrainians from Lviv are significantly more western-shifted than the ones from Belgorod.

Western Ukrainians are pretty much more similar to Poles and Slovaks than to Russians.

=====

In K15 my dad has notably high Atlantic, my mom notably high North Sea & East Euro:

1. Father:

North_Sea 24.18
Atlantic 19.34
Baltic 24.98
Eastern_Euro 15.86
West_Med 5.16
West_Asian 4.74
East_Med 4.53
Oceanian 0.23
Northeast_African 0.96

2. Mother:

North_Sea 26.77
Atlantic 14.93
Baltic 23.96
Eastern_Euro 19.95
West_Med 5.53
West_Asian 4.42
East_Med 3.32
Red_Sea 0.24
South_Asian 0.17
Amerindian 0.54
Northeast_African 0.17

And a comparison of Eurogenes K36 admixture results (based on FTDNA raw data):

1. Father:

Basque 0.29
Central_African 0.05
Central_Euro 10.15
East_Balkan 8.33
East_Central_Euro 19.23
Eastern_Euro 13.7
Fennoscandian 11.05
French 5.28
Iberian 6.23 ---> more Iberian than Italian (I noticed many Irish also have this pattern)
Italian 3.34
Near_Eastern 1.93 ---> some kind of MENA admixture
North_Atlantic 9.1 ---> this is high for a Polish person
North_Sea 10.51
Volga-Ural 0.36
West_Caucasian 0.24
West_Med 0.17

2. Mother:

Arabian 0.65 ---> some kind of MENA admixture too
Central_Euro 8.82
East_Balkan 5.1
East_Central_Euro 22.14
Eastern_Euro 14.63
Fennoscandian 11.95
French 6.5
Iberian 2.0
Italian 6.62 ---> more Italian than Iberian (I noticed many English have this pattern)
North_Atlantic 6.55
North_Caucasian 4.14 ---> high for a Polish person
North_Sea 10.89

Tomenable
21-07-18, 22:27
In your case I'd say that you have 4.1% relating to continental Celtic ancestry (Cornwall + South Wales) and the rest mostly Germanic (except maybe NW Scotland, which might be mixed Celtic and Norse).

I have a dilemma because I'm not sure if my Celtic ancestry is ancient or recent. There were Celtic tribes and archaeological cultures in prehistoric Poland, but there was more recent Scottish immigration to Poland too. My Y-DNA is also Celtic, a subclade of R1b-DF27. My close Y-DNA matches are from Scotland (but more distant matches also for example from Iberia):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Chisholm

https://i.imgur.com/oFZoEVX.png

^^^
One of reasons why I think that my (and my father's) Celtic ancestry and Y-DNA is rather ancient and not recent, is because there is no evidence that our surname is of Scottish origin. It just seems to be a regular Polish surname of Slavic origin. Here is an article (unfortunately only in Polish) about Scottish immigration to Early Modern Poland:

https://ngoteka.pl/bitstream/handle/item/280/Szkoci-JW.pdf?sequence=9

In 1616 Englishman William Lithgow claimed that there were 30,000 Scottish families in Poland. That was most likely an exaggeration. Historian Anna Biegańska estimated that there were 7,400 Scottish families. There were both Catholic Scots and Protestant Scots in Poland, it is impossible to tell exactly which group was more numerous. But in the 2nd half of the 17th century many Protestant Scots in Poland converted to Catholicism. Around year 1650 there were 119 Scottish settlements in Poland. Mostly in Northern (53) and Western (31) Poland, less numerous in Southern (18) and North-Eastern (17 settlements) Poland.

During the Polish-Swedish Wars there were also some Irish soldiers in Swedish service, who deserted and joined fellow Catholic Poles (I'm sure they later settled in Poland):

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43857871?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

"Irish military involvement in the Swedish army was neither happy nor successful. At the beginning of the Seventeenth Century about 6,000 men were shipped out of Ulster for the security of the plantation and sent to Sweden. They were especially unhappy fighting for a Lutheran power. Some Irish friars disguised themselves as soldiers and moved among the men encouraging them to desert to Catholic powers. The men then left Swedish service and most joined the army of Poland.[22] After this incident Gustavus Adolphus refused to accept any large scale recruitment of Irishmen considering them untrustworthy. However a small number went to serve in the officer corps. The most prominent of these was Hugh Hamilton, 1st Viscount of Glenawly. Two of his nephews also entered Swedish service."

=====

Maybe when I order Big Y test or some other very detailed Y-DNA test, everything will become clear. It will become clear whether my Y-DNA subclade is an ancestral branch to Scottish and Iberian branches, or descended from Scots.

martinmkp
25-07-18, 15:46
Dear Tomenable, I believe that all your UK results with LivingDNA are slightly biased and should be read with caution. They mirror so called Germanic branch, which can be also native in Central Europe. Because we have terribly little atDNA sanples from certain regions of Central Europe, all results with the companies including LivingDNA are not truly accurate. And LivingDNA are mentioning this openly now as well, because they originally focused on the British isles only. As Maciamo writes, they acrually coyld read as nowadays German territories, but maybe they could also mirror older Germanic background in Central Europe, maybe.
The same applies to so called Celtic yDNA in certain regions facing southern (Slovakia) and northern (south Poland) regions of Northern Carpatians plus Moravian plains. Those theoretically coud be pre-celric gael etc popularions or the remnants of actual Celts pushed by Romans Germans etc to the mountains. One such an example does exist in Northern Slovakia - celtic Kotinians were pushed by Germanic tribes to North of Carpatians and surely have survived and mixed with next populations. I am pretty sure that in this region we shall in future find not presumable so called "slavic" R1a vut something very different in significant numbers.
My case is similar to yours - in the past I also matched to many Scots, although there is no direct or logical connections (I dreamed about Irish missionaries in the 8th Century who came to our Moravian basin to teach about the only truth). Now I am with the smile saying - the Scots match to me, not vice versa :) I still remember how many so called Western Europeans were searching their R1b fathers in the Pyrenees caves, not in the east... that woyld be unimaginable. But time is running and people are changing :) Thankfully we all are now very close to agree on our PIE urheimat...

Tomenable
22-08-18, 21:17
Martin, what you are saying is very probable, it can be ancient admixture rather than historical.

However, my dad has some Scottish matches on GEDmatch with 15-20 Total cM of shared DNA.