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View Full Version : Here we go again: Right wing nationalism on the rise again in Europe



Angela
10-04-18, 16:37
In Hungarian elections, 70% of the vote went to right wing nationalist parties.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43693663

Well, in their case, their last really "autochthonous" government was a fascist one, so there you go.

exceededminimumso..
11-04-18, 00:02
...But the current appeal of machismo as political style, the wall-building and xenophobia, the mythology and race theory, the fantastical promises of national restoration – these are not cures, but symptoms of what is slowly revealing itself to all: nation states everywhere are in an advanced state of political and moral decay from which they cannot individually extricate themselves...

The demise of the nation state | News | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/05/demise-of-the-nation-state-rana-dasgupta)

Ygorcs
11-04-18, 00:15
This trend seems to be spreading everywhere, even though it seems to be in a much more advanced - and worrisome - state in some Eastern European countries. In the Philippines, they elected a much more violent and radical version of Trump, not a buffoon, but a truly dangerous demagogue. In Brazil, the 2nd candidate for the presidential elections of this year with the largest % of voters according to the pool is a right-wing military politician, Jair Bolsonaro, with ultra-conservative and even in some cases violent opinions on many social issues and an awful background of aggressive language against LGBTs, leftists and women, and support for the 1964-85 military dictatorship and even for infamous torturers of that period. He once said that Brazil needs to "kill 30,000 people or so, including the President (then Fernando Henrique Cardoso)... of course some innocent people will die among those, but that's inevitable, at least after that we'll get rid of what's pulling our country backwards and advance". Comments like this, which are many and regular, are pretty unquestionably fascistic in my opinion (and that of many other people, of course).

So, what I mean is that there is some worldwide trend that is favoring those right-wing demagogues who propose drastic, aggressive and supposedly costly but effective solutions to the growing concerns and structural chronic issues of their countries. We really need to understand what's happening in common among all those different nations and cultures, something that has favored the more radical candidates almost everywhere.

AdeoF
11-04-18, 00:20
This trend seems to be spreading everywhere, even though it seems to be in a much more advanced - and worrisome - state in some Eastern European countries. In the Philippines, they elected a much more violent and radical version of Trump, not a buffoon, but a truly dangerous demagogue. In Brazil, the 2nd candidate for the presidential elections of this year with the largest % of voters according to the pool is a right-wing military politician, Jair Bolsonaro, with ultra-conservative and even in some cases violent opinions on many social issues and an awful background of aggressive language against LGBTs, leftists and women, and support for the 1964-85 military dictatorship and even for infamous torturers of that period. He once said that Brazil needs to "kill 30,000 people or so, including the President (then Fernando Henrique Cardoso)... of course some innocent people will die among those, but that's inevitable, at least after that we'll get rid of what's pulling our country backwards and advance". Comments like this, which are many and regular, are pretty unquestionably fascistic in my opinion (and that of many other people, of course).

So, what I mean is that there is some worldwide trend that is favoring those right-wing demagogues who propose drastic, aggressive and supposedly costly but effective solutions to the growing concerns and structural chronic issues of their countries. We really need to understand what's happening in common among all those different nations and cultures, something that has favored the more radical candidates almost everywhere.
Yep it's like what people say "history repeats it's self" Brazil needs the right government to move on from what happened in the past but sadly it's easier said then done.
In the Philippines if you got weed, you dead!

Anyways congratulations on being a Moderator!!

Ygorcs
11-04-18, 00:56
Yep it's like what people say "history repeats it's self" Brazil needs the right government to move on from what happened in the past but sadly it's easier said then done.
In the Philippines if you got weed, you dead!

Anyways congratulations on being a Moderator!!

Seems like people got tired of awaiting for the realization of the many promises of the democratic regimes and are looking for supposedly "faster", more strong-handed solutions. But oh boy, they did exactly that in the past more than once and they always, unfailingly, got trapped into even worse regimes. The people as a whole don't seem to learn much from their own history.

By the way, thanks very much, man! I hope to make a useful and fair job here. ;-)

davef
11-04-18, 01:05
I still can't believe people want to be sent back to medieval times, would they be happy to have guards barging into peoples homes and sending them off to the dungeon for not praying to the right god or being forced to break rocks or pick peas for the local Baron in his cozy castle? They should really question whether these newly elected power hungry maniacs are "in it" for the nation (and not for themselves).

A. Papadimitriou
11-04-18, 01:34
I really don't understand what makes Orban worse than the typical center-right / center-left EU politicians. He is just more honest.

Johane Derite
11-04-18, 01:38
I really don't understand what makes Orban worse than the typical center-right / center-left EU politicians. He is just more honest.

A madman said this, but it has a ring of truth:


“The conservatives are fools: They whine about the decay of traditional values, yet they enthusiastically support technological progress and economic growth. Apparently it never occurs to them that you can't make rapid, drastic changes in the technology and the economy of a society without causing rapid changes in all other aspects of the society as well, and that such rapid changes inevitably break down traditional values.”

LeBrok
11-04-18, 05:16
This trend seems to be spreading everywhere, even though it seems to be in a much more advanced - and worrisome - state in some Eastern European countries. In the Philippines, they elected a much more violent and radical version of Trump, not a buffoon, but a truly dangerous demagogue. In Brazil, the 2nd candidate for the presidential elections of this year with the largest % of voters according to the pool is a right-wing military politician, Jair Bolsonaro, with ultra-conservative and even in some cases violent opinions on many social issues and an awful background of aggressive language against LGBTs, leftists and women, and support for the 1964-85 military dictatorship and even for infamous torturers of that period. He once said that Brazil needs to "kill 30,000 people or so, including the President (then Fernando Henrique Cardoso)... of course some innocent people will die among those, but that's inevitable, at least after that we'll get rid of what's pulling our country backwards and advance". Comments like this, which are many and regular, are pretty unquestionably fascistic in my opinion (and that of many other people, of course).

So, what I mean is that there is some worldwide trend that is favoring those right-wing demagogues who propose drastic, aggressive and supposedly costly but effective solutions to the growing concerns and structural chronic issues of their countries. We really need to understand what's happening in common among all those different nations and cultures, something that has favored the more radical candidates almost everywhere.
Social behaviour and its influence on politics is like a pendulum that swings from right to left, in political dimensions. Any bigger economic and political crises will scare people into more conservative approach to life and that includes isolation from the bad world, building walls, voting against emigration, and going into economical isolation. We have a big does of economic and financial wows and huge migration and terrorism in last decade. This influenced people into voting right.
In next decade when we have long economic expansion, improved family finances, and less terrorism, this should swing voters into more liberal, tolerant and open position.
Think pendulum.

bicicleur
11-04-18, 09:07
In Hungarian elections, 70% of the vote went to right wing nationalist parties.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43693663

Well, in their case, their last really "autochthonous" government was a fascist one, so there you go.

what's the difference with Trump?

he was elected with the help of Angela Merkels naivity and stupidity
she listened to much to those overpaid UN officials in their ivory towers

both sides are stupid, it's the pendulum swinging the other way
and yes, still a lot of those illegals in Europe still are to be sent back, it's a long and costly procedure

LABERIA
11-04-18, 14:19
An impressive victory. It means that he and his government have worked well and have defended the country, as he himself says.

Angela
11-04-18, 15:03
what's the difference with Trump?

he was elected with the help of Angela Merkels naivity and stupidity
she listened to much to those overpaid UN officials in their ivory towers

both sides are stupid, it's the pendulum swinging the other way
and yes, still a lot of those illegals in Europe still are to be sent back, it's a long and costly procedure

I hold no brief for Donald Trump.

I think he's a buffoon, and he's erratic and temperamentally unsuited for the job, imo. That's why I didn't vote for him. He's not, however, although it may appear so to Europeans, a right wing nationalist of the type taking power in eastern Europe. He's not a fascist, whatever the hysterical voices on the left here might say. Europe has a long history of fascism, and in eastern Europe, in particular, monarchies were succeeded by fascist governments, and then by Communist totalitarianism with only a few decades here and there of democracy. They also have a long history of genocidal anti-semitism which could easily turn into murderous anti-Middle Easterner. What could easily happen there could never happen here.

I know Europeans and I know Americans equally well and the differences are profound.

I'm very worried about how things will go.

bicicleur
11-04-18, 16:11
I hold no brief for Donald Trump.

I think he's a buffoon, and he's erratic and temperamentally unsuited for the job, imo. That's why I didn't vote for him. He's not, however, although it may appear so to Europeans, a right wing nationalist of the type taking power in eastern Europe. He's not a fascist, whatever the hysterical voices on the left here might say. Europe has a long history of fascism, and in eastern Europe, in particular, monarchies were succeeded by fascist governments, and then by Communist totalitarianism with only a few decades here and there of democracy. They also have a long history of genocidal anti-semitism which could easily turn into murderous anti-Middle Easterner. What could easily happen there could never happen here.

I know Europeans and I know Americans equally well and the differences are profound.

I'm very worried about how things will go.

ok, and I'm not a supporter of Orban
but is he a fascist?
what did he do to deserve this title?

Salento
11-04-18, 16:13
A “Reminder” to the Lefty: VP Mike Pence.
IMO Lefty should cheer for Trump.
Think!

Angela
11-04-18, 17:36
ok, and I'm not a supporter of Orban
but is he a fascist?
what did he do to deserve this title?

I don't think you can compare Orban to Trump. There's certainly no comparison between popular attitudes in the U.S. and Hungary.

See:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/08/world/europe/hungary-election-viktor-orban.html

dominique_nuit
11-04-18, 18:25
Thank god for Hungary and Poland. At least they have the good sense to defend the integrity of their nations. Yes, Europe was born from 4 widely divergent populations. But this is no argument for swamping the West with foreign peoples & hostile cultures. A two-thousand year civilization is at stake.

There is nothing "democratic" about mass immigration into Western nations. When did the people ever vote for this? On the contrary, it was imposed from above by globalist elites.

But when Hungary stands up against this, people call them Fascists. As though they were the enemies of democracy. Such utter insanity. As though we are supposed to sit like idle sheep as we are systematically replaced, not by war, not by disease, but by the policies of our ruling elites.

bicicleur
11-04-18, 19:37
I don't think you can compare Orban to Trump. There's certainly no comparison between popular attitudes in the U.S. and Hungary.

See:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/08/world/europe/hungary-election-viktor-orban.html

maybe, but he is labeled a fascist because he was the one with the most common sense during the refugee crisis

he isn't
I don't see the kind of rhetoric Erdogan is using

if the EU leaders did their job properly, they wouldn't have to deal with this kind of popular leaders
look at Brexit

exceededminimumso..
11-04-18, 20:26
I really don't understand what makes Orban worse than the typical center-right / center-left EU politicians. He is just more honest.

What makes you think so?

Ygorcs
11-04-18, 20:29
Social behaviour and its influence on politics is like a pendulum that swings from right to left, in political dimensions. Any bigger economic and political crises will scare people into more conservative approach to life and that includes isolation from the bad world, building walls, voting against emigration, and going into economical isolation. We have a big does of economic and financial wows and huge migration and terrorism in last decade. This influenced people into voting right.
In next decade when we have long economic expansion, improved family finances, and less terrorism, this should swing voters into more liberal, tolerant and open position.
Think pendulum.

That's right, but I also think this stronger and especially louder conservative wave is also at least partly a sign of fear or hatred against the very evident (despite high and low points) trends of at least some countries like Brazil in the last few decades, a tendency toward noticeably more liberal and progressive points of view especially in matters of social and individual behavior. People who were already conservative, even if unconsciously so, weren't that loud and angry, not here anyway, even 15 years ago.

These last 15-20 years were exactly the time when the conservatives became much more dogmatic, well organized and noisy, but also the very same period when the public opinion of the majority of Brazilians shifted decisively to positions that were unthinkable just 2 generations ago and certainly minor enough to be relatively harmless only 1 generation (~25 years) ago. The growth in the support for typically progressive stances was, in historic terms, too rapid, and the fact that we had 4 successive leftist governments that were more or less supportive of most of those progressive aims only made things worse for the conservative part of the population, that started to feel seriously intimidated and even trapped into a slow but continuous "revolution" of social mores that sounds horrifid to them.

So, in a way I think that this conservative wave we're seeing is not just part of that pendulum caused by an alternation between moments of decline and progress, but also quite literally a reactionary wave even more than a conservative one, that is, there is a growing fear among certain parts of the population that the society is changing too fast and is clearly heading to a mindset and way of life that is totally unlike what they were used to and taught that is the right one. The reaction that sounds so loud and even aggressive can be , in some aspects, more of a desperate cry.

Ygorcs
11-04-18, 20:46
Thank god for Hungary and Poland. At least they have the good sense to defend the integrity of their nations. Yes, Europe was born from 4 widely divergent populations. But this is no argument for swamping the West with foreign peoples & hostile cultures. A two-thousand year civilization is at stake.

There is nothing "democratic" about mass immigration into Western nations. When did the people ever vote for this? On the contrary, it was imposed from above by globalist elites.

But when Hungary stands up against this, people call them Fascists. As though they were the enemies of democracy. Such utter insanity. As though we are supposed to sit like idle sheep as we are systematically replaced, not by war, not by disease, but by the policies of our ruling elites.

Oh boy, do you really think people would criticize him so much just because he wants to restrict the present levels of immigration. Never mind that Hungary was NEVER and is not a major destination of legal or illegal non-European immigrants in Europe, so all this anti-immigration panic is even a bit funny in the eyes of foreigners who know all too well that the vast majority of foreign immigrants in Hungary will just use it as bridge towards their preferred destinations like Germany, Switzerland and Sweden. It's also a bit funny, or rather ironic that, as the stats clearly demonstrate, the biggest threat to Eastern European "civilization" is the combination of extremely low birth rates with very high EMIGRATION - no, not immigration - rates driving increasingly negative population growth in most nations. By the way, I didn't know this civilization is apparently so weak that it needs to be transmitted via DNA, not by acculturation of people, regardless of their ancestry... but nobody - neither the left nor the right-wing - wants to discuss the boogeyman that is the urgent need of better cultural integration and [later] assimilation.

So what about little "democratic" changes brougth by the government of Orban like this? Do you really think people would be so wary of his government's democratic credential just because he favors a conservative and more restricted policy of immigration? The problem is way bigger than that little controversy.


The Venice Commission (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venice_Commission) and the Hungarian Helsinki Committee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Helsinki_Committee) expressed concern over the provision on cardinal acts; opposition parties asserted these could bind future governments to Fidesz' actions, but did promise to participate in the debate on the acts.[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Hungary#cite_note-feher-14)[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Hungary#cite_note-cardinal-13) Amnesty International (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesty_International) believes the document "violates international and European human rights standards", citing the clauses on fetal protection (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_protection), marriage and life imprisonment, and sexual orientation not being covered in the anti-discrimination clause. Left-wing and liberal members of the European Parliament (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament) asserted that it fails to protect citizens' rights and reduces legislative checks and balances.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Hungary#cite_note-schmitt-11) Among these was Guy Verhofstadt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Verhofstadt), head of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_of_the_Alliance_of_Liberals_and_Democrats_fo r_Europe), who said the constitution could limit "fundamental human rights" and was adopted without transparency, flexibility, a spirit of compromise and sufficient time for debate.[42] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Hungary#cite_note-42) Werner Hoyer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Hoyer), Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany)'s deputy foreign minister, expressed his country's concern as well,[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Hungary#cite_note-passes-12) prompting the Hungarian Foreign Affairs Ministry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_of_Foreign_Affairs_(Hungary)) to dismiss the remarks as "inexplicable and unacceptable".[43] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Hungary#cite_note-43) Additionally, United Nations Secretary-General (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary-General_of_the_United_Nations) Ban Ki-moon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_Ki-moon) suggested the government should address concerns about the constitution.[44] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Hungary#cite_note-44)

In March 2013, Parliament amended the constitution for the fourth time, on a 265-11 vote, with Fidesz, the Christian Democrats and three independents in favor and the Socialists boycotting the vote; there were also 33 abstentions.[47] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Hungary#cite_note-tobias-47)[48] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Hungary#cite_note-defies-48) Subsequently, President János Áder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1nos_%C3%81der) signed the amendment into law, citing his legal duty and the need to preserve national unity.[49] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Hungary#cite_note-49)[50] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Hungary#cite_note-50) The fifteen-page amendment touches on several aspects. It annuls rulings of the Constitutional Court made before the 2011 constitution went into force, while allowing their legal effects to remain. It endows the president of the Kuria and the chief prosecutor with the power to initiate constitutional review of laws. While giving the Constitutional Court the power to review the constitution itself on procedural grounds, it stipulates that the court cannot annul a law passed by a two-thirds parliamentary majority. Judges and prosecutors are obliged to retire at the general retirement age, although that age is left unstated; the Kuria head and the chief prosecutor are exempt. The amendment enshrines freedom of religion and allows constitutional complaints regarding the church law. It allows civil lawsuits for hate speech (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech) targeting an individual's community, and declares that communism is condemned. The measure requires students whose education is subsidized by the state to work in Hungary for a period after graduation or reimburse their tuition costs to the state. It allows only public media to air political advertising prior to general and European elections (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_the_European_Union). The importance of the traditional family is stressed, and authorities are empowered to ban living in certain public spaces, although homelessness is not outlawed. A prior proposal on requiring voters to register prior to elections was not included after being earlier voided by the Constitutional Court.[51] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Hungary#cite_note-51)

LeBrok
11-04-18, 22:23
The growth in the support for typically progressive stances was, in historic terms, too rapid, and the fact that we had 4 successive leftist governments that were more or less supportive of most of those progressive aims only made things worse for the conservative part of the population, that started to feel seriously intimidated and even trapped into a slow but continuous "revolution" of social mores that sounds horrifid to them.Exactly how I rationalise it too.


So, in a way I think that this conservative wave we're seeing is not just part of that pendulum caused by an alternation between moments of decline and progress, but also quite literally a reactionary wave even more than a conservative one, that is, there is a growing fear among certain parts of the population that the society is changing too fast and is clearly heading to a mindset and way of life that is totally unlike what they were used to and taught that is the right one. The reaction that sounds so loud and even aggressive can be , in some aspects, more of a desperate cry.
I think the morals, social and political views, get reset with every new generation. Everybody's "compas" gets set during childhood and adolescence. The ideas and the world views learned at this time become base, the norm. The new conservatism.
That's why every old generation complains about the bad, worth nothing, new generation, but reminises their perfect world of their youth. "In my days..."
Also, this is why the new generation growing up with mixed races and in multiculturalism will be much more open, inclusive and tolerant, than old generation, which grew up in uniform ethnic group or separatism of some kind.

To tie it to this thread, Eastern European countries are much more uniform culturally and racially, than Western Europe ones, which doesn't help to open them to emigration, or plant in Western ideas of tolerance to "the others". Recent history of hyper nationalism in these countries against Soviet Russia, is not helping the situation either. They are hyper sensitive to their newly recovered independence and national identity.

Tomenable
11-04-18, 23:16
He's not a fascist

Would you mind taking these tests and posting your Fascism Scores, Angela?:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35862-Tests-on-Authoritarian-Personality-and-Fascism

People too often associate fascism with right wing, in fact it is more complex.

bicicleur
12-04-18, 12:51
To tie it to this thread, Eastern European countries are much more uniform culturally and racially, than Western Europe ones, which doesn't help to open them to emigration, or plant in Western ideas of tolerance to "the others". Recent history of hyper nationalism in these countries against Soviet Russia, is not helping the situation either. They are hyper sensitive to their newly recovered independence and national identity.

good point

and seeing that immigration was not beneficial to western Europe won't help either

Europe does not have the right policies to make immigration a succes

paul333
12-04-18, 15:22
The plain fact is the opinion result is what the majority of the people want, that view has to be respected,and accepted.

LeBrok
12-04-18, 16:43
The plain fact is the opinion result is what the majority of the people want, that view has to be respected,and accepted.To a degree, till the will of majority suppress rights of minorities. That's why we have many basic rights guaranteed in every constitution. This is were will of majority must stop.

dominique_nuit
12-04-18, 18:14
the vast majority of foreign immigrants in Hungary will just use it as bridge towards their preferred destinations like Germany, Switzerland and Sweden.

Except that the EU pressures central European countries to accept immigrants under a quota system


the biggest threat to Eastern European "civilization" is the combination of extremely low birth rates with very high EMIGRATION - no, not immigration - rates driving increasingly negative population growth in most nations

Low native birth rates could be reversed with incentives and subsidies. In fact, why not take a lot of the money that goes to help immigrants and use it to help young native couples have and raise children. Stop immigration, raise the native birth rate.


By the way, I didn't know this civilization is apparently so weak that it needs to be transmitted via DNA, not by acculturation of people, regardless of their ancestry

Civilization and culture have a genetic basis. Do you really think that "European civilization" will endure once the population has been substantially replaced by immigration? And even if this were so, isn't it mad to invite the substantial replacement of one's own people on their own ancestral territory? It calls to mind Plutarch's tale of the Ship of Theseus, except with timber from different trees


Do you really think people would be so wary of his government's democratic credential just because he favors a conservative and more restricted policy of immigration? The problem is way bigger than that little controversy.

Immigration is hardly a "little controversy." In fact, it is the only issue that really matters. It is the question of our time.

And as far as Orban seeking to implement certain illiberal measures goes, or somehow violating "fundamental human rights," have you monitored the status of free political speech in Western Europe lately?

exceededminimumso..
12-04-18, 19:51
"These days you can't write racial abuse on someone's car with excrement without politically correct brigade jumping down your throat"

paul333
12-04-18, 20:01
To a degree, till the will of majority suppress rights of minorities. That's why we have many basic rights guaranteed in every constitution. This is were will of majority must stop.


The real situation in Europe is that it has actually been the will of the minorities forcing the suppression of the wills of the majority. The majority has to be respected, this democratic failure over recent decades, is why we are now seeing the consequences, and chaos in Europe today. Metropolitan based urban views mostly suppressing national ( majority )views.

Ygorcs
12-04-18, 20:24
Except that the EU pressures central European countries to accept immigrants under a quota system



Low native birth rates could be reversed with incentives and subsidies. In fact, why not take a lot of the money that goes to help immigrants and use it to help young native couples have and raise children. Stop immigration, raise the native birth rate.



Civilization and culture have a genetic basis. Do you really think that "European civilization" will endure once the population has been substantially replaced by immigration? And even if this were so, isn't it mad to invite the substantial replacement of one's own people on their own ancestral territory? It calls to mind Plutarch's tale of the Ship of Theseus, except with timber from different trees



Immigration is hardly a "little controversy." In fact, it is the only issue that really matters. It is the question of our time.

And as far as Orban seeking to implement certain illiberal measures goes, or somehow violating "fundamental human rights," have you monitored the status of free political speech in Western Europe lately?

Well, lots and lots of unsubstantiated assumptions in your post:
- that, against all, innumerable historical evidences, culture and civilization are embedded in the genes of the local population and can't go on and survive by integrating other people into their sphere (no wonder immigrants don't integrate well in those countries, it must be really hard to convince anyone to do so if they are sure that no matter how culturally assimilated they are they'll always be regarded as "foreign people in our country"... also tell that to Hungarians, who speak Magyar and consider themselves Magyar even though they have a tiny bit of "true" Magyar ancestry in their veins);
- that if Western Europe has some problem with free political speech then somehow Eastern European governments are allowed to violate human rights and democratic clauses (is Western Europe somehow the standard of perfection to you or what? Because that argument doesn't make much sense);
- that immigration is "the only issue that really matters" even in the face of so many other urgent social and economic problems that, by the way, are partly responsible for the aforementioned extremely low birth rates and increase in youth emigration rates (no wonder that demographic bomb, that would happen with or without any immigrants, is not going away any time soon, people refuse to see what's right under their nose because it's much easier to propose magical solutions directed just against "the others", "the foreigners", and not pointing fingers at their own people's drawbacks);
- that you can convince young people to have many more kids by just offering them money, something that was already tested unsuccessfully in several European countries. People don't decide to have kids thinking just on the immediate costs and financial burden of that, but on the entire future perspective that they have for their lives. You're simplifying the problem too much. Increasing birth rates require tackling all those increasing structural problems that you think are unimportant because all that matters is to stop immigration. Meanwhile the constraints caused by the economic sytem and modern lifestyles on the decision to have more kids or even any kid at all continue unchallenged. Very wise move, huh?

dominique_nuit
12-04-18, 21:28
- that, against all, innumerable historical evidences, culture and civilization are embedded in the genes of the local population and can't go on and survive by integrating other people into their sphere (no wonder immigrants don't integrate well in those countries, it must be really hard to convince anyone to do so if they are sure that no matter how culturally assimilated they are they'll always be regarded as "foreign people in our country"... also tell that to Hungarians, who speak Magyar and consider themselves Magyar even though they have a tiny bit of "true" Magyar ancestry in their veins);

Bad example. Magyars were a small military elite that did not substantially replace the native population. What is going on today Europe is not a question of absorbing and assimilating a small number of immigrants. It is a question of the immigrants replacing the native population. If current trends continue, native Europeans will be the minority in many of their own countries. Why must they acquiesce in their own destruction? And, by way of contrary example, why does Japan take so few immigrants? Perhaps the Japanese are not suicidal.



That if Western Europe has some problem with free political speech then somehow Eastern European governments are allowed to violate human rights and democratic clauses (is Western Europe somehow the standard of perfection to you or what? Because that argument doesn't make much sense);

I am very suspicious of groups like Amnesty International, just as I am suspicious of the US government =
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/world-report/articles/2018-01-22/why-is-the-us-interfering-in-hungarys-election

But I must confess, I don't really believe in liberal democracy anymore. Sue me.


That immigration is "the only issue that really matters" even in the face of so many other urgent social and economic problems that, by the way, are partly responsible for the aforementioned extremely low birth rates and increase in youth emigration rates (no wonder that demographic bomb, that would happen with or without any immigrants, is not going away any time soon, people refuse to see what's right under their nose because it's much easier to propose magical solutions directed just against "the others", "the foreigners", and not pointing fingers at their own people's drawbacks)

First, I do not think that ending immigration is a panacea. In fact, I think that opposition to mass immigration must be coupled with a critique of liberal free trade and globa capitalism in general.

See the French thinker Jean-Claude Michea = http://seejps.lumina.org/index.php/volume-ii-number-1-2-populism-and-its-metamorphoses/65-jean-claude-michea-s-populism-or-with-the-left-against-the-left



- that you can convince young people to have many more kids by just offering them money, something that was already tested unsuccessfully in several European countries. People don't decide to have kids thinking just on the immediate costs and financial burden of that, but on the entire future perspective that they have for their lives. You're simplifying the problem too much. Increasing birth rates require tackling all those increasing structural problems that you think are unimportant because all that matters is to stop immigration. Meanwhile the constraints caused by the economic sytem and modern lifestyles on the decision to have more kids or even any kid at all continue unchallenged. Very wise move, huh?

I think that all other problems pale when faced with the prospect of demographic replacement. However, in general I think we would all be better off with a reduced birth rate. But the rates must fall globally, throughout the world. Otherwise, the first step before any other problems can be addressed is to defend our borders, the fundamental duty of any state.

As for the other reasons for a declining birth rate, reasons to do with a degenerate culture and sex role confusion, I am just as guilty in this regard as anyone else. I will most likely not have any children. All I can do is weep.

LABERIA
12-04-18, 22:02
A madman said this, but it has a ring of truth:


“The conservatives are fools: They whine about the decay of traditional values, yet they enthusiastically support technological progress and economic growth. Apparently it never occurs to them that you can't make rapid, drastic changes in the technology and the economy of a society without causing rapid changes in all other aspects of the society as well, and that such rapid changes inevitably break down traditional values.”

It`s not so simple.

In 1989, Orbán received a scholarship from the Soros Foundation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soros_Foundation) to study political science at Pembroke College (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pembroke_College,_Oxford), Oxford (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_University).[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Orb%C3%A1n#cite_note-9) His personal tutor was Hegelian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegelianism) political philosopher Zbigniew Pelczynski (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Pelczynski).[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Orb%C3%A1n#cite_note-10) In January 1990, he left Oxford and returned to Hungary to run for a seat in Hungary's first post-communist parliament.

Hungarian-American business magnate and political activist George Soros (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros) criticized Orbán's handling of the European migrant crisis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_migrant_crisis) in 2015, saying: "His plan treats the protection of national borders as the objective and the refugees as an obstacle. Our plan treats the protection of refugees as the objective and national borders as the obstacle."[98] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Orb%C3%A1n#cite_note-98) The Orbán government began to attack Soros and his NGOs since early 2017, particularly for his support for more open immigration. In July 2017, the Israeli ambassador in Hungary joined Jewish groups and others in denouncing a billboard campaign backed by the government, in which Soros was vilified as an "enemy of the state". The campaign was widely seen as anti-semitic, with critics claiming it "evokes memories of the Nazi posters during the Second World War". The ambassador stated that the campaign "evokes sad memories but also sows hatred and fear", an apparent reference to the Holocaust. Hours later, in an apparent attempt to ally Israel with Hungary, Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Foreign_Affairs_%28Israel%29) issued a "clarification", denouncing Soros, stating that he "continuously undermines Israel's democratically elected governments," and that Soros funded organizations "that defame the Jewish state and seek to deny it the right to defend itself". The Israeli government has sought to ally itself with countries within the EU that might defend it from criticism; the clarification came a few days before an official visit to Hungary by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Netanyahu).[99] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Orb%C3%A1n#cite_note-99) The anti-Soros messages became key elements of the government's communication and campaign since then, which, among others, also targeted the Central European University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_European_University) (CEU).[100] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Orb%C3%A1n#cite_note-100)[101] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Orb%C3%A1n#cite_note-101)[102] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Orb%C3%A1n#cite_note-102)[103] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Orb%C3%A1n#cite_note-103)
Judicial Watch: State Department Records Show Obama Administration Helped Fund George Soros’ Left-Wing Political Activities in Albania (https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/judicial-watch-doj-records-show-obama-administration-helped-fund-george-soros-left-wing-political-activities-albania/)
APRIL 04, 2018



Obama USAID Used U.S. Taxpayers’ Funds to Back Soros Group’s Effort to Give Albania’s Socialist Government ‘Full Control Over Judiciary’
(Washington, DC) — Judicial Watch obtained 32 pages (https://www.judicialwatch.org/document-archive/jw-v-state-soros-albania-01012/) of records showing the Obama administration sent U.S. taxpayers’ funds to a group backed by billionaire George Soros, which used the money to fund left-wing political activities in Albania, including working with the country’s socialist government to push for highly controversial judicial “reform.” The records also detail how the Soros operation helped the State Department review grant applications from other groups for taxpayer funding.
The records were obtained in a May 26, 2017, Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit (https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/judicial-watch-sues-state-department-usaid-records-funding-george-soros-open-society-foundation-albania/) against the U.S. Department of State and the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID (https://www.usaid.gov/)) after both the State Department and USAID failed to respond to March 31, 2017, FOIA requests (Judicial Watch v. U.S. Department of State and the U.S. Agency for International Development (https://www.judicialwatch.org/document-archive/jw-v-state-usaid-soros-albania-complaint-01012/) (No. 1:17-cv-01012)). Judicial Watch agreed to dismiss the lawsuit after it received the documents and payment of attorneys’ fees.
The new documents show USAID funds were funneled through that agency’s Civil Society Project to back Soros’s left-wing Open Society Foundations (https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/about) in Albania, particularly the Soros operation efforts to give the socialist government greater control of the judiciary. USAID reportedly (https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jun/1/judicial-watch-sues-george-soros-funding-records/) gave $9 million in 2016 to the “Justice for All” campaign, which is overseen by Soros’s “East West Management Institute.”
In March 2017, a group of six U.S. Senators led by Sen. Mike Lee (R-UT) sent a letter (https://www.scribd.com/document/341866712/Lee-Inhofe-Letter-to-Secretary-Tillerson#from_embed) to then-Secretary of State Rex Tillerson asking that he investigate charges that the U.S. government was using taxpayer funds to assist Soros in Albania. The letter said, “Foundation Open society-Albania and its experts, with funding from USAID, have created the controversial Strategy Document for Albanian Judicial Reform. Some leaders believe that these ‘reforms’ are ultimately aimed to give the Prime Minister and left-of-center government full control over the judiciary.” In the Albanian parliament, opposition leaders (http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/albanian-opposition-leader-claims-of-being-a-soros-s-target-03-28-2017) have labeled the Strategy “a Soros-sponsored reform.”


2011 Albanian opposition demonstrations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Albanian_opposition_demonstrations)Excuse me but i have not elected George Soros in the Parliament. I don`t like to be governed by his Open Society Foundation and a bunch of NGO. I know that our politicians are a bunch of bastards, but they are the persons elected by people.

LeBrok
12-04-18, 22:04
The real situation in Europe is that it has actually been the will of the minorities forcing the suppression of the wills of the majority. That's fallacy of thinking. Everybody wants to belong to majority, because it feels better and vindicates one's point of view. Trump was sure that majority voted for him, and he was wrong.



The majority has to be respected, this democratic failure over recent decades, is why we are now seeing the consequences, and chaos in Europe today. Wow, the world is burning, run for the hills. I would guess that democracy had a great times in Europe after WW2 in the west and collapse of Soviets in the East. When did democracy worked in Europe for you? IN WW2, or maybe during imperial times before WW1? "Make Europe Great Again!"



Metropolitan based urban views mostly suppressing national ( majority )views.I didn't know that city folks don't belong to the nation!

If you think that there will be ever a political system to make everybody happy, think again. Regardless, basic human rights need to be protected.

exceededminimumso..
12-04-18, 22:09
Judicialwatch: 10001

She looks guilty as hell.What more prove do you need? Wake up sheeple

OkTex
12-04-18, 22:14
Trump wasn’t elected with the help of any foreign power...Merkel or Putin or Rasputin! I was a Trump voter. Clinton was a proven criminal that I did not want to run my country... Trump happened to be the other choice! It has transpired that he is doing what a capable President should do-unlike his divisive and timid predecessor!

LeBrok
12-04-18, 22:27
As for the other reasons for a declining birth rate, reasons to do with a degenerate culture and sex role confusion This is a typical argument of religious person, and it covers all world's problems perfectly. Together with fall of Roman Empire. The true reason for declining birth rate is wide acceptance of birth control methods in last 50 years or so. Even in Bangladesh, poor and very religious country (think, great moral compass), birth rate dropped by half to 4 kids per family just during one generation. This after introducing cheap contraceptives. Otherwise people have sex and kids are popping up like daisies! Simple like this. Sex=Baby People never made kids by choice in the past. They had sex, and vuala. Unlike these days when young families only have kids by choice.

LeBrok
12-04-18, 22:31
Trump wasn’t elected with the help of any foreign power...Merkel or Putin or Rasputin! I was a Trump voter. Clinton was a proven criminal that I did not want to run my country... Trump happened to be the other choice! It has transpired that he is doing what a capable President should do-unlike his divisive and timid predecessor! Didn't we just talk about this psychological phenomenon? You=Majority (think, confirmed right choice=feels good=must be true) elected Trump!

LeBrok
12-04-18, 22:34
Judicialwatch: 10001

She looks guilty as hell.What more prove do you need? Wake up sheeple Exactly, look at her face and majority knew she was:

I was a Trump voter. Clinton was a proven criminal that I did not want to run my country... T!

gyms
12-04-18, 22:44
In Hungarian elections, 70% of the vote went to right wing nationalist parties.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43693663

Well, in their case, their last really "autochthonous" government was a fascist one, so there you go.

Professor of psychology Dr. Jordan B Peterson talks about a current hot topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX6KETs_5xE

LABERIA
12-04-18, 22:54
Judicialwatch: 10001
She looks guilty as hell.What more prove do you need? Wake up sheeple
I can't see the attachment.

exceededminimumso..
12-04-18, 22:59
Exactly, look at her face and majority knew she was:

Let's think logically, would republicans call Clintonas evil for 20 years if they weren't evil?

gyms
12-04-18, 23:06
Viktor Orbán Day of Honor Speech 2018 (with Eng. subs.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmGyDw6_ypo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmGyDw6_ypo)

Jordan Peterson, Canadian clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at the University of Toronto, speaks with The Epoch Times about Postmodernism and Cultural Marxism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLoG9zBvvLQ

Ygorcs
13-04-18, 01:06
This is a typical argument of religious person, and it covers all world's problems perfectly. Together with fall of Roman Empire. The true reason for declining birth rate is wide acceptance of birth control methods in last 50 years or so. Even in Bangladesh, poor and very religious country (think, great moral compass), birth rate dropped by half to 4 kids per family just during one generation. This after introducing cheap contraceptives. Otherwise people have sex and kids are popping up like daisies! Simple like this. Sex=Baby People never made kids by choice in the past. They had sex, and vuala. Unlike these days when young families only have kids by choice.

Even in Saudi Arabia, which could hardly be more officially religious and conservative, the fertility rate dropped in less than 40 years to less than 3 children and is soon going to be slightly below the replacement rate of 2.1! But in my opinion NO country reaches the absurdly low levels of some Eastern and Southern European countries, as well as nations like Japan and South Korea, without some social and economic problems encouraging people to postpone or even avoiding procreation as much as they can - and not for good reasons and completely free choice, but because of narrow opportunities, extreme loss of social and family cohesion, and especially (mostly economic) anxiety about their future. The majority of the world is not experiencing rates as absurdly low as 1.1-1.3 as you can see in some of those nations, and in some nations of Eastern Europe that is coupled by another problem, which is that the extremey low fertility rate is not partly compensated by a very high life expectancy and very good health conditions for elders.

I do think that countries experiencing abnormally insufficient fertility rates are amidst a true demographic crisis and face structural problems that are probably at the background of this demographic consequence, but of course the trend toward low birth rates (low but still at least near to the replacement rate in order to allow a sustainable demographic transition) is unavoidable almost everywhere where modern urban civilization arrived - whether the country is religious or irreligious, conservative or progressive, or whatever.

LeBrok
13-04-18, 01:22
Let's think logically, would republicans call Clintonas evil for 20 years if they weren't evil?

Are you continuing your wicket sarcasm or your comments are that stupidly shallow?

LeBrok
13-04-18, 02:51
Even in Saudi Arabia, which could hardly be more officially religious and conservative, the fertility rate dropped in less than 40 years to less than 3 children and is soon going to be slightly below the replacement rate of 2.1! But in my opinion NO country reaches the absurdly low levels of some Eastern and Southern European countries, as well as nations like Japan and South Korea, without some social and economic problems encouraging people to postpone or even avoiding procreation as much as they can - and not for good reasons and completely free choice, but because of narrow opportunities, extreme loss of social and family cohesion, and especially (mostly economic) anxiety about their future. The majority of the world is not experiencing rates as absurdly low as 1.1-1.3 as you can see in some of those nations, and in some nations of Eastern Europe that is coupled by another problem, which is that the extremey low fertility rate is not partly compensated by a very high life expectancy and very good health conditions for elders.

I do think that countries experiencing abnormally insufficient fertility rates are amidst a true demographic crisis and face structural problems that are probably at the background of this demographic consequence, but of course the trend toward low birth rates (low but still at least near to the replacement rate in order to allow a sustainable demographic transition) is unavoidable almost everywhere where modern urban civilization arrived - whether the country is religious or irreligious, conservative or progressive, or whatever. Yes, it is a problem, at least for a short timescale. This is a new paradigm, and humanity would need to wrestle how to solve it. Our technological revolution brought quite few changes, and some of them turned to be challenges. Choice of having kids, became existential problem of shrinking nations. Oversupply of food made societies obese, which shortens life and lowers its quality. Transportation shrank the world and opened borders, scaring many with multiculturalism and invasion of immigrants, the others, and rise of nationalism. Etc, etc, etc.
I'm not sure what should be done with low birthrate. Should we wait and let evolution bring a solution. There are always people who love to have many kids and will have them more than others. With time they will populate countries with people who love kids and have many. Who knows, in few hundred years we might face again overpopulation problem.
Of course, at least the quick solution should be helping new families with social assistance to encourage having kids. Long and paid maternal/parental leave. Free daycare and education including free university. Free Disneyland maybe. :)
Though, this approach will ruin natural selection option. ;)

Angela
13-04-18, 03:40
As to lower birthrates, I think it's all of the things mentioned, but it's also that children changed from being an economic asset into being an enormous economic drain. The way we believe we should or are taught to raise them nowadays also necessitates an equally enormous investment of time and energy.

Some people just aren't willing to make the sacrifices required. They prefer to spend their money on themselves. I'm not saying they're necessarily more selfish innately than people of prior generations: it's just that they now have options.

In terms of Southern European countries, this is not a new phenomenon. In my mother's family and many others couples even in the thirties, before artificial birth control, were limiting the size of their families. My father's family, with eleven births, was an anomaly, and my paternal grandfather suffered a lot of criticism for it. After the war, the rule was already one child. My mother was soundly taken to task by her family members for having a second child. The considerations were not just economic either. It was also a feeling that you wanted to do so much for them that you just didn't have the resources of any kind to do it for a lot of children.

In individual cases it's also a function of temperament, and whether both partners want to pursue careers. Given the stresses of raising children in the modern world, and my own personality, I absolutely didn't want more than two or three children. There was also no way that I could see managing a large family with a career of my own: I already made a lot of sacrifices in that regard even with just two.

To circle back to the main topic, the fascists were aware of the problem in the thirties in at least some areas of the country, and were offering incentives to families to have more children.

Ygorcs
13-04-18, 06:09
As to lower birthrates, I think it's all of the things mentioned, but it's also that children changed from being an economic asset into being an enormous economic drain. The way we believe we should or are taught to raise them nowadays also necessitates an equally enormous investment of time and energy.

Some people just aren't willing to make the sacrifices required. They prefer to spend their money on themselves. I'm not saying they're necessarily more selfish innately than people of prior generations: it's just that they now have options.

In terms of Southern European countries, this is not a new phenomenon. In my mother's family and many others couples even in the thirties, before artificial birth control, were limiting the size of their families. My father's family, with eleven births, was an anomaly, and my paternal grandfather suffered a lot of criticism for it. After the war, the rule was already one child. My mother was soundly taken to task by her family members for having a second child. The considerations were not just economic either. It was also a feeling that you wanted to do so much for them that you just didn't have the resources of any kind to do it for a lot of children.

In individual cases it's also a function of temperament, and whether both partners want to pursue careers. Given the stresses of raising children in the modern world, and my own personality, I absolutely didn't want more than two or three children. There was also no way that I could see managing a large family with a career of my own: I already made a lot of sacrifices in that regard even with just two.

To circle back to the main topic, the fascists were aware of the problem in the thirties in at least some areas of the country, and were offering incentives to families to have more children.

Very enlightening comment, Angela. As you say, this is not a sudden challenge that appeared out of nowhere, it's been slowly building more and more until it reached a really worrisome level in some countries (and probably many more are to come in the near future). I also believe that you nailed it when you mentioned that, apart from their being an economic drain, we "believe or were taught" to raise children in a certain way that honestly I think sometimes veers on obsessive perfectionism.

Parents are expected to be and do too much for their children, whereas I know numerous stories from older people who tell me how they, after some age, grew up virtually "on their own" with their parents just supervising them and helping here and there. And, simultaneously, people - including parents - expect way too much from their children nowadays, almost as if they are training them for extreme competition of the modern capitalist world since they. In some way, I also think that the consumerism of the present world has also meant an increasing amount of stress and guilt for the parents, for they are expected to or themselves think that to be good parents they need to give their children the best comforts they can afford. And of course this sacrifice will more often become too much for some people than in the past, when - at least here where I live - you were regarded as a good parent if you just managed to give enough food, clothes, school and a good bed to your children, period.

What's worse, as I have noticed with some of my younger married relatives, is that they were told to give their children everything and 24/7 limitless attention, but at the same time they don't have enough time and resources themselves, and unlike previous generations they have a much smaller and loser social network (cousins, friends, neighbors etc.) that in the past usually were virtually co-participants in the upbringing of a children.

I think all these things have created currently a pretty toxic family environment full of stress, anxiety, guilt, unrealistic ambitions and expectations that they can never meet even for 1 children, let alone for 2 or 3 (for those parents aren't just parents, they are also professionals, husbands and wives, and other social roles, and of course they at some point will be fed up with the idea that they have to make everything they can to guarantee the success of their kids, lest they become future losers in an increasingly competitive society).

dominique_nuit
13-04-18, 06:26
This is a typical argument of religious person

I believe much more in sin than I do in God, let alone Jesus Christ. That said, Dante's Purgatorio is on my list of 20 books to read before the end of the year. The medieval mind had a much better understanding of lust and such related sins as acedia/despondency/sloth than we do today. But since I am anonymous here, I will say that I have suffered from a sexual fetish for as long as I can remember. I think that the Freudian theory of the fetish has a lot to be said for it (with Masud Khan having the most penetrating insights). I believe that the incidence of fetish complexes among men in modern societies is much greater than in traditional societies, and that this is tied to the decline of the father's authority. Men no longer learn how to tend fields or execute a craft from their fathers. They go to school instead to learn abstract skills for an increasingly abstract world. The decline of parental authority can be traced back to Christianity, to the desacralizing of the paterfamilias figure. Modernity has compounded this by depriving the father of his practical authority as well. The result is that young men do not model themselves on their fathers. This is what I mean by sex role confusion. The fetish, once unfurled in whole, is an avoidance of conjugal sex. The fetish is a substitute for sex, the de-virilization of the modern man. This is a major reason for the epidemic of pornography addiction in modern societies. People used to have sex. Now they watch porn. There are of course other reasons. Isolation, atomization, anomie, so on and so forth. But the root cause is the decline of virility and the rise of the fetish complex.


The true reason for declining birth rate is wide acceptance of birth control methods in last 50 years or so. Even in Bangladesh, poor and very religious country (think, great moral compass), birth rate dropped by half to 4 kids per family just during one generation. This after introducing cheap contraceptives. Otherwise people have sex and kids are popping up like daisies! Simple like this. Sex=Baby People never made kids by choice in the past. They had sex, and vuala. Unlike these days when young families only have kids by choice.

I think people are also having a lot less sex than in the past. At least in modern Western societies. Married people have sex. Single adults with lonely lives do not have very much sex. They have the occasional one-night stand.

dominique_nuit
13-04-18, 06:30
I am happy to report that I agree with the comments of Angela in post #45 and Ygorcs in post #46 of this thread.

bicicleur
13-04-18, 08:27
Yes, it is a problem, at least for a short timescale. This is a new paradigm, and humanity would need to wrestle how to solve it. Our technological revolution brought quite few changes, and some of them turned to be challenges. Choice of having kids, became existential problem of shrinking nations. Oversupply of food made societies obese, which shortens life and lowers its quality. Transportation shrank the world and opened borders, scaring many with multiculturalism and invasion of immigrants, the others, and rise of nationalism. Etc, etc, etc.
I'm not sure what should be done with low birthrate. Should we wait and let evolution bring a solution. There are always people who love to have many kids and will have them more than others. With time they will populate countries with people who love kids and have many. Who knows, in few hundred years we might face again overpopulation problem.
Of course, at least the quick solution should be helping new families with social assistance to encourage having kids. Long and paid maternal/parental leave. Free daycare and education including free university. Free Disneyland maybe. :)
Though, this approach will ruin natural selection option. ;)

let's get back to the old system
those who don't have kids should save for their own pension, they don't get one from the state
those who have kids who pay for pension, their parents get a pension from the state
the pension is a return of investment in children

bicicleur
13-04-18, 08:30
In individual cases it's also a function of temperament, and whether both partners want to pursue careers. Given the stresses of raising children in the modern world, and my own personality, I absolutely didn't want more than two or three children. There was also no way that I could see managing a large family with a career of my own: I already made a lot of sacrifices in that regard even with just two.



the fact that women now also have a career is certainly a new factor in low birthrates

bicicleur
13-04-18, 08:36
Very enlightening comment, Angela. As you say, this is not a sudden challenge that appeared out of nowhere, it's been slowly building more and more until it reached a really worrisome level in some countries (and probably many more are to come in the near future). I also believe that you nailed it when you mentioned that, apart from their being an economic drain, we "believe or were taught" to raise children in a certain way that honestly I think sometimes veers on obsessive perfectionism.

Parents are expected to be and do too much for their children, whereas I know numerous stories from older people who tell me how they, after some age, grew up virtually "on their own" with their parents just supervising them and helping here and there. And, simultaneously, people - including parents - expect way too much from their children nowadays, almost as if they are training them for extreme competition of the modern capitalist world since they. In some way, I also think that the consumerism of the present world has also meant an increasing amount of stress and guilt for the parents, for they are expected to or themselves think that to be good parents they need to give their children the best comforts they can afford. And of course this sacrifice will more often become too much for some people than in the past, when - at least here where I live - you were regarded as a good parent if you just managed to give enough food, clothes, school and a good bed to your children, period.

What's worse, as I have noticed with some of my younger married relatives, is that they were told to give their children everything and 24/7 limitless attention, but at the same time they don't have enough time and resources themselves, and unlike previous generations they have a much smaller and loser social network (cousins, friends, neighbors etc.) that in the past usually were virtually co-participants in the upbringing of a children.

I think all these things have created currently a pretty toxic family environment full of stress, anxiety, guilt, unrealistic ambitions and expectations that they can never meet even for 1 children, let alone for 2 or 3 (for those parents aren't just parents, they are also professionals, husbands and wives, and other social roles, and of course they at some point will be fed up with the idea that they have to make everything they can to guarantee the success of their kids, lest they become future losers in an increasingly competitive society).

I think that those who don't have children should abstain from commenting those who raise children.
Furthermore each child is different and needs a different approach.
We should also allow again for older children to grow 'on their own'.

paul333
13-04-18, 13:24
That's fallacy of thinking. Everybody wants to belong to majority, because it feels better and vindicates one's point of view. Trump was sure that majority voted for him, and he was wrong.


Wow, the world is burning, run for the hills. I would guess that democracy had a great times in Europe after WW2 in the west and collapse of Soviets in the East. When did democracy worked in Europe for you? IN WW2, or maybe during imperial times before WW1? "Make Europe Great Again!"


I didn't know that city folks don't belong to the nation!

If you think that there will be ever a political system to make everybody happy, think again. Regardless, basic human rights need to be protected.


Use your eyes today, not your ears, for example look at London, typical of most European cities today.

exceededminimumso..
13-04-18, 14:03
Are you continuing your wicket sarcasm or your comments are that stupidly shallow?

Sarcasm is the highest form of wit, it's not for everyone

LeBrok
13-04-18, 16:37
let's get back to the old system
those who don't have kids should save for their own pension, they don't get one from the state
those who have kids who pay for pension, their parents get a pension from the state
the pension is a return of investment in childrenOh, this is "my way", the independent way. I don't even care if my kids pay for my retirement. I'm that independent. It is working for me, and maybe for you. But you can't run the whole society this way. The solution you porpoising won't work on big scale, unless you are ready to see people dying from poverty in the street every day. Unless you are ready spend your retirement money and bigger taxes to build more prisons, because from poverty of the unfortunate the crime will skyrocket. Then you will ***** about the crime, telling us that we should also "get rid of" the useless scum of society.
And yes, these ways were very popular in Europe in many countries in between wars period.

LeBrok
13-04-18, 17:21
Use your eyes today, not your ears, for example look at London, typical of most European cities today.The booming and successful metropoly of millions of people? Love it. If only we could get rid of the imperialistic relique, the monarchy...

Angela
13-04-18, 17:28
Very enlightening comment, Angela. As you say, this is not a sudden challenge that appeared out of nowhere, it's been slowly building more and more until it reached a really worrisome level in some countries (and probably many more are to come in the near future). I also believe that you nailed it when you mentioned that, apart from their being an economic drain, we "believe or were taught" to raise children in a certain way that honestly I think sometimes veers on obsessive perfectionism.

Parents are expected to be and do too much for their children, whereas I know numerous stories from older people who tell me how they, after some age, grew up virtually "on their own" with their parents just supervising them and helping here and there. And, simultaneously, people - including parents - expect way too much from their children nowadays, almost as if they are training them for extreme competition of the modern capitalist world since they. In some way, I also think that the consumerism of the present world has also meant an increasing amount of stress and guilt for the parents, for they are expected to or themselves think that to be good parents they need to give their children the best comforts they can afford. And of course this sacrifice will more often become too much for some people than in the past, when - at least here where I live - you were regarded as a good parent if you just managed to give enough food, clothes, school and a good bed to your children, period.

What's worse, as I have noticed with some of my younger married relatives, is that they were told to give their children everything and 24/7 limitless attention, but at the same time they don't have enough time and resources themselves, and unlike previous generations they have a much smaller and loser social network (cousins, friends, neighbors etc.) that in the past usually were virtually co-participants in the upbringing of a children.

I think all these things have created currently a pretty toxic family environment full of stress, anxiety, guilt, unrealistic ambitions and expectations that they can never meet even for 1 children, let alone for 2 or 3 (for those parents aren't just parents, they are also professionals, husbands and wives, and other social roles, and of course they at some point will be fed up with the idea that they have to make everything they can to guarantee the success of their kids, lest they become future losers in an increasingly competitive society).

Sorry, Ygorcs. I didn't edit your comment. I wanted to respond.

I agree with all of that. I think that ideally there should be a middle ground between being a "helicopter" parent and a laissez-faire one, the kind about whom my mother used to say that cats were better mothers than some human mothers. It's just that it's a difficult line to maintain. It is indeed a very competitive world, and as you love your children, you want them to be equipped to compete. You're also bombarded with messages about how everything that goes wrong with a child is the mother's fault, and that brings additional pressure. Add to that the fact that nonna and nonno and uncles and aunts are not around to help out.

Economic insecurity, pessimism about the future, mothers who work outside the home etc. etc. are also factors. Let's also not forget that people see all around them the terrible problems among young people due to drugs, sometimes leading to criminality, the young girls getting pregnant and bringing the baby home for the parents to raise and on and on. One of my best friends is childless. Just recently she was saying to me that after years of being anguished by it she is now grateful, because she doubts she would have been able to handle the situations in which some of the people she knows find themselves.

Whether some government subsidies would actually help, I don't know. I doubt it.

Jovialis
13-04-18, 17:47
Just recently, I was reading an article that talked about the neurological changes that happens in parents after having children. It's pretty interesting:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/brain-waves/201804/how-parenting-is-hard-wired

Kohl, Johannes, et. la. "Functional circuit architecture underlying parental behavior." Nature (2018). (link is external) (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0027-0.epdf?author_access_token=2iRxgMc1QUD2ZMJkgB2CEdR gN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0OCwg_t4gDmPeD0aWQSJwh3pG8pzhbjZ Ha-bIge0l4Yd3CkHgGyi6g4sY1zy_YZv5Qvc6GgEqJt-KtBu-Y2IB_RSVGC6Cpjqtq5ExxfnSIMJQ%3D%3D)http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41586-018-0027-0

Angela
13-04-18, 18:11
Just recently, I was reading an article that talked about the neurological changes that happens in parents after having children. It's pretty interesting:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/brain-waves/201804/how-parenting-is-hard-wired

Kohl, Johannes, et. la. "Functional circuit architecture underlying parental behavior." Nature (2018). (link is external) (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0027-0.epdf?author_access_token=2iRxgMc1QUD2ZMJkgB2CEdR gN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0OCwg_t4gDmPeD0aWQSJwh3pG8pzhbjZ Ha-bIge0l4Yd3CkHgGyi6g4sY1zy_YZv5Qvc6GgEqJt-KtBu-Y2IB_RSVGC6Cpjqtq5ExxfnSIMJQ%3D%3D)http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41586-018-0027-0

Something definitely changes, and I do think it's hard-wired. My husband really had no burning desire to have children. He certainly wanted to put it off for a good long time, and would have been perfectly ok with not having them. Yet, once that baby was in his arms, he was hooked for good.

You can't explain to people who have never had children what it feels like at least for some of us. It's a tidal wave of emotion: nothing and no one in the world is as important to you as this tiny, squirming, red faced, screaming little being. You'd give anything, do anything, absolutely anything, to protect them and ensure their happiness.

The thing is, you can only experience it after the fact. Heck, I had baby fever every once in a while for years after my second, and that's what it is: almost a fever.

Hard-wired indeed.

bicicleur
13-04-18, 18:39
Oh, this is "my way", the independent way. I don't even care if my kids pay for my retirement. I'm that independent. It is working for me, and maybe for you. But you can't run the whole society this way. The solution you porpoising won't work on big scale, unless you are ready to see people dying from poverty in the street every day. Unless you are ready spend your retirement money and bigger taxes to build more prisons, because from poverty of the unfortunate the crime will skyrocket. Then you will ***** about the crime, telling us that we should also "get rid of" the useless scum of society.
And yes, these ways were very popular in Europe in many countries in between wars period.

the biggest abuse is that - at least in Belgium - we went from a capitalising system to a repartition system, which means the working generation now works to pay the pensions of the retired generation
the capital is gone, politicians turned the national pension funds into a Ponzi scheme - yet nobody ever went to jail for that
but that is not the point I wanted to make
raising children is an investment, it costs a lot of money and time, you even have to adapt your lifestyle in order to raise them properly
those who don't make those costs should at least be able to save enough to provide for their own pension

LeBrok
13-04-18, 19:49
the biggest abuse is that - at least in Belgium - we went from a capitalising system to a repartition system, which means the working generation now works to pay the pensions of the retired generation
the capital is gone, politicians turned the national pension funds into a Ponzi scheme - yet nobody ever went to jail for thatIt is the same around the world. This problem will pass easily when robots will work for your pension. Robot will stop emigration too (work emigration), when they will make every country prosperous.


but that is not the point I wanted to make
raising children is an investment, it costs a lot of money and time, you even have to adapt your lifestyle in order to raise them properly
Well, we have to invest in new generation, no doubt there, however the end goal is perpetuation of human species, and for me, constant advancement and betterment.

ihype02
15-04-18, 16:08
Hungary was always nationalistic.

gyms
16-04-18, 09:40
Hungary was always nationalistic.

http://www.americanhungarianfederation.org/news_trianon.htm

Dreptul Valah
16-04-18, 10:28
https://www.linkedin.com/in/frchristerhes


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludovic_Orban



Virgil Magureanu(real name Imre Asztalos) has become the chief of SRI on America's proposal,if what I have heard is correct(I assume that Western Europe was fine with that), although he was a well-known Soviet agent.

Dreptul Valah
16-04-18, 10:42
A forth big support for Hungary is the Austro-Hungary's Jewish community, that was very consistent in Transylvania as well,which is the place of origin of Harvey Keitel's mother.


Perspective


Although Western Wallachia has the lowest natality and economical power ever,you just can't rely only on simple mathematics:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lD46_lSluvs

gyms
17-04-18, 10:39
Hungary will continue helping refugees in their native lands, rather than encourage them to colonize other people's countries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTAE7iXTmo0

Fascinating interview on Hungary's stance on Europe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe15_ol6adQ

Hungary on EU dispute: We'll be "unrelenting" | DW English

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IND9xk9E7vQ

Hungary Helps

http://abouthungary.hu/hungary-helps/

Dreptul Valah
17-04-18, 10:57
In adolescence, I have met some people from the Szekelyland on a national geography contest,it was a burden for me these kind of events,however,I usually went,because there were great parties after ,and the professors were quite understanding, they knew that I don't like the extremely repeated way of learning,but they rely on my intelligence.


The campus' rooms were grouped for two counties each,we got the Szeklers.
I remember that they were extremely politely and they look at us,at start,as we were some sort of aliens;10 minutes later,they have learnt the taste of beer,party,while I knew some Hungarian speech,before they have introduced me to their girls from the next door.


As we party,I was trying to keep a high-quality atmosphere ,when I saw a blonde,green-eyed Hungarian girl who just jumps next to me and puts my hand on her hips,I surely didn't liked that so I grabbed her by the hair,Eniko was her name.


After the good-looking Eniko has tempered herself and dressed really nice ,we went together at the campus' party.

Jovialis
17-04-18, 12:27
In adolescence, I have met some people from the Szekelyland on a national geography contest,it was a burden for me these kind of events,however,I usually went,because there were great parties after ,and the professors were quite understanding, they knew that I don't like the extremely repeated way of learning,but they rely on my intelligence.


The campus' rooms were grouped for two counties each,we got the Szeklers.
I remember that they were extremely politely and they look at us,at start,as we were some sort of aliens;10 minutes later,they have learnt the taste of beer,party,while I knew some Hungarian speech,before they have introduced me to their girls from the next door.


As we party,I was trying to keep a high-quality atmosphere ,when I saw a blonde,green-eyed Hungarian girl who just jumps next to me and puts my hand on her hips,I surely didn't liked that so I grabbed her by the hair,Eniko was her name.


After the good-looking Eniko has tempered herself and dressed really nice ,we went together at the campus' party.

This bizarre and nonsensical anecdote for your physical abuse against this woman has earned you an infraction for Disruptive/provocative behavior.

Dreptul Valah
17-04-18, 12:30
You're pushing your luck,I really mean that.

Jovialis
17-04-18, 12:34
You're pushing your luck,I really mean that.

You've received an infraction for sending me a threat via PM. This has accumulated to a ban.

firetown
17-04-18, 18:08
Sarcasm is the highest form of wit, no, it is not. It might be considered such by those who lack solutions (or the will to find them)

exceededminimumso..
17-04-18, 21:17
no, it is not. It might be considered such by those who lack solutions (or the will to find them)

(My sarcasm triumphs again. This calls for an arch)

Is it solution if it doesn't solve the problem?

maratmilano
18-04-18, 12:33
Hungary's parliamentary elections aren't going to be rocking the boat politically for the world, but it is indeed indicative of a rise in nativism and nationalist anxiety. As a guy living in the US, I find Europe's politics fascinating...I hold out hope that this is indeed a case of pendulum swinging (as somebody mentioned above).

In the grand scheme though, I think that we live in the midst of a period that will have some difficulties and conflict as the world transitions further into globalization. To me, the flares in nationalism are inevitable responses to the brave new world of the last 60 years. Even if the xenophobia is completely invalid and irrelevant, economic anxiety makes people hear out the demagogues and scapegoating that they disregarded when things were going well. Easy to fall for "our economy is bad because immigrants" if you're suffering economically and need self-validation.

Birth rates dropping aren't so much an issue for Europeans as it is a trend that the entire world will eventually go through as more countries develop. With the advent of medicine, increase in women's rights and choice over their bodies, as well as some of the good points Angela mentioned...the entire way we look at having kids/reproducing (as a quantity) has changed in the last century. In the pre-industrial world, having 1 or 2 kids meant a high risk of losing them all. The rate of survival to adulthood was certainly tragic by standards of today. But with medical advancement and improved quality of life, making it to adulthood is no longer a worry, and parents have kids with the expectation that they will grow up, etc. Thus, in such a world, it is more economically prudent to have 1-2 kids and devote your resources towards maximizing their success. The "8 children households" are typically an image of poverty rather than products of economic wealth.

In any case, lower fertility rates are here to stay in developed nations, and so the only way a country will be able to sustain growth is through immigration. Regardless of reactionaries and nationalist outbursts, the trajectory we are on is for increased international connectivity and movement of peoples/cultures, and waning value of "national" borders and isolationist policies. Globalization will be a bumpy ride though, certainly.

gyms
18-04-18, 13:17
Hungary's parliamentary elections aren't going to be rocking the boat politically for the world, but it is indeed indicative of a rise in nativism and nationalist anxiety. As a guy living in the US, I find Europe's politics fascinating...I hold out hope that this is indeed a case of pendulum swinging (as somebody mentioned above).

In the grand scheme though, I think that we live in the midst of a period that will have some difficulties and conflict as the world transitions further into globalization. To me, the flares in nationalism are inevitable responses to the brave new world of the last 60 years. Even if the xenophobia is completely invalid and irrelevant, economic anxiety makes people hear out the demagogues and scapegoating that they disregarded when things were going well. Easy to fall for "our economy is bad because immigrants" if you're suffering economically and need self-validation.

Birth rates dropping aren't so much an issue for Europeans as it is a trend that the entire world will eventually go through as more countries develop. With the advent of medicine, increase in women's rights and choice over their bodies, as well as some of the good points Angela mentioned...the entire way we look at having kids/reproducing (as a quantity) has changed in the last century. In the pre-industrial world, having 1 or 2 kids meant a high risk of losing them all. The rate of survival to adulthood was certainly tragic by standards of today. But with medical advancement and improved quality of life, making it to adulthood is no longer a worry, and parents have kids with the expectation that they will grow up, etc. Thus, in such a world, it is more economically prudent to have 1-2 kids and devote your resources towards maximizing their success. The "8 children households" are typically an image of poverty rather than products of economic wealth.

In any case, lower fertility rates are here to stay in developed nations, and so the only way a country will be able to sustain growth is through immigration. Regardless of reactionaries and nationalist outbursts, the trajectory we are on is for increased international connectivity and movement of peoples/cultures, and waning value of "national" borders and isolationist policies. Globalization will be a bumpy ride though, certainly.

Douglas Murray; Brings America A Very Real Warning "Great Speech"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J75-UsMhKBo

The Strange Death Of Europe - 1 of 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lf6yUS4smg

gyms
18-04-18, 13:42
Hungary's parliamentary elections aren't going to be rocking the boat politically for the world, but it is indeed indicative of a rise in nativism and nationalist anxiety. As a guy living in the US, I find Europe's politics fascinating...I hold out hope that this is indeed a case of pendulum swinging (as somebody mentioned above).
In the grand scheme though, I think that we live in the midst of a period that will have some difficulties and conflict as the world transitions further into globalization. To me, the flares in nationalism are inevitable responses to the brave new world of the last 60 years. Even if the xenophobia is completely invalid and irrelevant, economic anxiety makes people hear out the demagogues and scapegoating that they disregarded when things were going well. Easy to fall for "our economy is bad because immigrants" if you're suffering economically and need self-validation.

Birth rates dropping aren't so much an issue for Europeans as it is a trend that the entire world will eventually go through as more countries develop. With the advent of medicine, increase in women's rights and choice over their bodies, as well as some of the good points Angela mentioned...the entire way we look at having kids/reproducing (as a quantity) has changed in the last century. In the pre-industrial world, having 1 or 2 kids meant a high risk of losing them all. The rate of survival to adulthood was certainly tragic by standards of today. But with medical advancement and improved quality of life, making it to adulthood is no longer a worry, and parents have kids with the expectation that they will grow up, etc. Thus, in such a world, it is more economically prudent to have 1-2 kids and devote your resources towards maximizing their success. The "8 children households" are typically an image of poverty rather than products of economic wealth.

In any case, lower fertility rates are here to stay in developed nations, and so the only way a country will be able to sustain growth is through immigration. Regardless of reactionaries and nationalist outbursts, the trajectory we are on is for increased international connectivity and movement of peoples/cultures, and waning value of "national" borders and isolationist policies. Globalization will be a bumpy ride though, certainly.

https://www.ft.com/content/838d60c2-0961-11e7-97d1-5e720a26771b

https://www.thelocal.se/20170216/employment-increases-among-swedens-foreign-born-population


“We want our politics built on families,” said Prime Minister Orbán. “Make families again the core of European politics. Families and children are really a blessing—not just for the nation, but for the entire European community.”

http://abouthungary.hu/blog/we-want-our-politics-built-on-families-pm-orban-on-the-family-housing-support-program/

LeBrok
18-04-18, 16:19
Hungary's parliamentary elections aren't going to be rocking the boat politically for the world, but it is indeed indicative of a rise in nativism and nationalist anxiety. As a guy living in the US, I find Europe's politics fascinating...I hold out hope that this is indeed a case of pendulum swinging (as somebody mentioned above).

In the grand scheme though, I think that we live in the midst of a period that will have some difficulties and conflict as the world transitions further into globalization. To me, the flares in nationalism are inevitable responses to the brave new world of the last 60 years. Even if the xenophobia is completely invalid and irrelevant, economic anxiety makes people hear out the demagogues and scapegoating that they disregarded when things were going well. Easy to fall for "our economy is bad because immigrants" if you're suffering economically and need self-validation.

Birth rates dropping aren't so much an issue for Europeans as it is a trend that the entire world will eventually go through as more countries develop. With the advent of medicine, increase in women's rights and choice over their bodies, as well as some of the good points Angela mentioned...the entire way we look at having kids/reproducing (as a quantity) has changed in the last century. In the pre-industrial world, having 1 or 2 kids meant a high risk of losing them all. The rate of survival to adulthood was certainly tragic by standards of today. But with medical advancement and improved quality of life, making it to adulthood is no longer a worry, and parents have kids with the expectation that they will grow up, etc. Thus, in such a world, it is more economically prudent to have 1-2 kids and devote your resources towards maximizing their success. The "8 children households" are typically an image of poverty rather than products of economic wealth.

In any case, lower fertility rates are here to stay in developed nations, and so the only way a country will be able to sustain growth is through immigration. Regardless of reactionaries and nationalist outbursts, the trajectory we are on is for increased international connectivity and movement of peoples/cultures, and waning value of "national" borders and isolationist policies. Globalization will be a bumpy ride though, certainly.
Well said, mratmilano.

LeBrok
18-04-18, 16:22
Douglas Murray; Brings America A Very Real Warning "Great Speech"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J75-UsMhKBo

The Strange Death Of Europe - 1 of 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lf6yUS4smgDeficit of vitamin D3 gets people in depression and phobias. At the extreme, experienced drivers can become afraid to drive a car. This affects all aspects of life, and is paralyzing. I've witnessed this phenomenon few times amongst friends here in Canada.
You live so far north and it's been a long winter...

gyms
18-04-18, 18:45
Deficit of vitamin D3 gets people in depression and phobias. At the extreme, experienced drivers can become afraid to drive a car. This affects all aspects of life, and is paralyzing. I've witnessed this phenomenon few times amongst friends here in Canada.
You live so far north and it's been a long winter...

"You are the only doctor who has been able to give me any direction - I can't say what it means when someone with a chronic illness is finally given some hope for relief from such an annoying symptom."
http://www.neurologique.org/thankyou.html

halfalp
18-04-18, 20:47
I still can't believe people want to be sent back to medieval times, would they be happy to have guards barging into peoples homes and sending them off to the dungeon for not praying to the right god or being forced to break rocks or pick peas for the local Baron in his cozy castle? They should really question whether these newly elected power hungry maniacs are "in it" for the nation (and not for themselves).Well... ironically what you just said is the reason of the right wing raise in Europe, Islam.

Ygorcs
18-04-18, 21:12
Well... ironically what you just said is the reason of the right wing raise in Europe, Islam.

The only problem is that that would explain the increasing support to right-wing positions in Western Europe, mainly in countries like France, Germany and Sweden, but in Poland, in Hungary, in Ukraine? Islam is the religion of less than 0.3% of Hungarians, in Poland only 0.1% of the population is Muslim, in Ukraine just 0.6% to 0.9% (and many of them are in fact native European & Ukrainian nationals of steppe Turkic origin). Islam is simply a minor religion in those countries, and there are undoubtedly more people of Poland or Ukraine living outside their country than immigrants "invading" those countries. Hungary, according to its own official statistics, has a mere 151k immigrants, out of which 99.2k (66%) are from Europe, not the feared "others" (source: https://www.ksh.hu/docs/eng/xstadat/xstadat_annual/i_wnvn001b.html)

Who are those people trying to fool as if they were big targets threatened by massive hordes of Muslim foreigners who want to stay there and take their land (especially worrisome when they just happen to be brown-skinned, I must add ironically)?

If they really believe that, then they must be suffering from a political sort of anxiety disorder or panic syndrome. The funny thing is that the scapegoating seems to work even when the Islam bogeyman is far far away. Even in Germany right-wing anti-Islam sentiments are mainly increasing in Eastern Germany, where the percentage of Muslims is tiny and probably most people outside Berlin and other big centers rarely if ever see a Muslim family in their neighborhoods.

Ygorcs
18-04-18, 21:19
Hungary's parliamentary elections aren't going to be rocking the boat politically for the world, but it is indeed indicative of a rise in nativism and nationalist anxiety. As a guy living in the US, I find Europe's politics fascinating...I hold out hope that this is indeed a case of pendulum swinging (as somebody mentioned above).

In the grand scheme though, I think that we live in the midst of a period that will have some difficulties and conflict as the world transitions further into globalization. To me, the flares in nationalism are inevitable responses to the brave new world of the last 60 years. Even if the xenophobia is completely invalid and irrelevant, economic anxiety makes people hear out the demagogues and scapegoating that they disregarded when things were going well. Easy to fall for "our economy is bad because immigrants" if you're suffering economically and need self-validation.

Birth rates dropping aren't so much an issue for Europeans as it is a trend that the entire world will eventually go through as more countries develop. With the advent of medicine, increase in women's rights and choice over their bodies, as well as some of the good points Angela mentioned...the entire way we look at having kids/reproducing (as a quantity) has changed in the last century. In the pre-industrial world, having 1 or 2 kids meant a high risk of losing them all. The rate of survival to adulthood was certainly tragic by standards of today. But with medical advancement and improved quality of life, making it to adulthood is no longer a worry, and parents have kids with the expectation that they will grow up, etc. Thus, in such a world, it is more economically prudent to have 1-2 kids and devote your resources towards maximizing their success. The "8 children households" are typically an image of poverty rather than products of economic wealth.

In any case, lower fertility rates are here to stay in developed nations, and so the only way a country will be able to sustain growth is through immigration. Regardless of reactionaries and nationalist outbursts, the trajectory we are on is for increased international connectivity and movement of peoples/cultures, and waning value of "national" borders and isolationist policies. Globalization will be a bumpy ride though, certainly.

Excellent comment. But the challenge of very low fertility rates is already impacting even non-developed, emerging countries in such a fast pace that it'll probably have those countries even more paralyzed than the developed countries, especially because they have less resources to adapt to this new and still unknown world of aged population and low population of children and teenagers. In many states of Brazil, including the most populous ones like São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro and Rio Grande do Sul, the fertility rates are low even for European standards, around 1.4-1.6 (the national rate is not much higher, 1.8), and in China fertility rates have dropped to similar levels around 1.5. I agree with your points, but I'd just say that this challenge is now a global issue, not just a European one or a "first-world problem". It is just that Europe entered that phase earlier than others, so what we'll see there - the good and the bad consequences - is probably going to happen very soon in other places, even in emerging markets like Brazil, China and Turkey.

halfalp
18-04-18, 21:51
The only problem is that that would explain the increasing support to right-wing positions in Western Europe, mainly in countries like France, Germany and Sweden, but in Poland, in Hungary, in Ukraine? Islam is the religion of less than 0.3% of Hungarians, in Poland only 0.1% of the population is Muslim, in Ukraine just 0.6% to 0.9% (and many of them are in fact native European & Ukrainian nationals of steppe Turkic origin). Islam is simply a minor religion in those countries, and there are undoubtedly more people of Poland or Ukraine living outside their country than immigrants "invading" those countries. Hungary, according to its own official statistics, has a mere 151k immigrants, out of which 99.2k (66%) are from Europe, not the feared "others" (source: https://www.ksh.hu/docs/eng/xstadat/xstadat_annual/i_wnvn001b.html)

Who are those people trying to fool as if they were big targets threatened by massive hordes of Muslim foreigners who want to stay there and take their land (especially worrisome when they just happen to be brown-skinned, I must add ironically)?

If they really believe that, then they must be suffering from a political sort of anxiety disorder or panic syndrome. The funny thing is that the scapegoating seems to work even when the Islam bogeyman is far far away. Even in Germany right-wing anti-Islam sentiments are mainly increasing in Eastern Germany, where the percentage of Muslims is tiny and probably most people outside Berlin and other big centers rarely if ever see a Muslim family in their neighborhoods.The increase in those countries is link by the refus of being threathened by Bruxelles and their quotas. Hungary is in the center where all the migrants coming from the balkans pass. And the reason why those countries dont have actually a lot of muslims is because they have take the problem very seriously at the beginning and i'm actually dont understand your reasoning as " there is no massive immigration in those countries ", if they didn't do anything, they would be, or in the futur.

halfalp
18-04-18, 22:01
I litterally saw a guy like LeBrok says to put all migrants in a village create their own society and constantly harassing christianity like this is the most dangerous cult in the world, and this is an ancient slavery country problem. People are so afraid and coward that they gonna spit on christianity as being retarded and obsolete or conservative and being inclusive with islam even if its the latter who is dangerous. Why pick on dangerous barbarians, when you can pick on conservative and western civilized people hum ? The fear. Hiding behind an progressive and supposedly atheist ( wich is ridiculous because an atheist should litteraly be very conservative and skeptic against religions in general ) shield, some people gonna harass, the weaks, that cant count on the law but avoid the ones who doesn't care about the law.

davef
18-04-18, 23:36
Well... ironically what you just said is the reason of the right wing raise in Europe, Islam.

So you're saying these starving Muslim refugees are going to enslave people (or at least lead up to that) and send Europe back to the dark ages ?

Ygorcs
18-04-18, 23:42
The increase in those countries is link by the refus of being threathened by Bruxelles and their quotas. Hungary is in the center where all the migrants coming from the balkans pass. And the reason why those countries dont have actually a lot of muslims is because they have take the problem very seriously at the beginning and i'm actually dont understand your reasoning as " there is no massive immigration in those countries ", if they didn't do anything, they would be, or in the futur.

Well, if start with too many "if if if if" and we'll never reach any objective conclusion about this or any other subject. Let's go back to the real world for now, the world where there is no reasonable sign at all that they would have millions of Muslims desperately wanting to flock towards Hungary "if" (another if) they didn't do anything.

The real-world fact is that those Eastern European countries actually have NO significant problem with immigration at all, so it is baffling that it is a big electoral and political topic there, mainly as scapegoating was also very good for political profits in times of crisis (of economy, identity, political transition etc.). They all should have much more pressing and - more importantly - REAL, not based on "ifs", problems that they should be very concerned with before even thinking of considering immigration, let alone Muslim immigration, THE issue that decides elections and policies.

It's a secondary problem in their countries (actually, less problematic to the local demography than the extremely low fertility rates and the brain drain with high emigration rates among the youth), no matter how much these right-wing parties and leaders want to make a boogeyman and a big scandal about it to gain the favors of some gullible and faint-hearted voters.

Also, another fact is that, whether people like t admit or not, almost NOBODY dreamed of crossings oceans and continents to arrive in Europe and establish oneself in Hungary, Poland or, worse, Ukraine or Serbia. That's simply not what the immigrants plan, and the best proof for that is that the vast majority of the refugees and immigrants pass through Hungary and willingly leave: their destination is simply NOT there, period. There was, aren't and won't be any massive influx of immigrants who make everything to get to live there as in France, Germany or Sweden. Even in the worst scenario, they'd receive a moderate influx of a few thousands of immigrants per year, even if the EU quotas were established and respected.

Except for desperate war refugees who would accept living in any place free of the burden of war and persecution, the overwhelming majority of immigrants want better job opportunities and public services, and they are willing to risk everything in their nations only if they think they have a lot to gain from that perilous journey. No, most of them don't think Hungary or Poland are worth the risk, and those who reach those territories almost always want to get out of there and move to more developed and multicultural places, with or without Orban, with or without anti-immigration policies.

It baffles me that you and other people can't see that the immigration crisis is real, BUT IT IS NOT AN URGENT ISSUE in the likes of Hungary, Poland or Ukraine at all, and those who keep talking about immigrants and Islam and so on without any big, concrete and imminent risk posed by those things in their countries are just trying to divert people's attention from much more worrisome and direct INTERNAL problems of their countries. "If this, if that" is just not enough to make it such a big issue, especially when the evidences point to the fact that, sorry, but those countries are just not "that" interesting as a major target of economic immigration.

halfalp
19-04-18, 01:10
So you're saying these starving Muslim refugees are going to enslave people (or at least lead up to that) and send Europe back to the dark ages ?There is 5 millions of Muslims in western europe prior the recent afghan-syrian migrations. In one hand you have nationalized muslims that hate western civilization, in the other one the one who starve, primarlly men, that the futur generation gonna come enlarge the first ones mentioned.

halfalp
19-04-18, 01:12
Well, if start with too many "if if if if" and we'll never reach any objective conclusion about this or any other subject. Let's go back to the real world for now, the world where there is no reasonable sign at all that they would have millions of Muslims desperately wanting to flock towards Hungary "if" (another if) they didn't do anything.

The real-world fact is that those Eastern European countries actually have NO significant problem with immigration at all, so it is baffling that it is a big electoral and political topic there, mainly as scapegoating was also very good for political profits in times of crisis (of economy, identity, political transition etc.). They all should have much more pressing and - more importantly - REAL, not based on "ifs", problems that they should be very concerned with before even thinking of considering immigration, let alone Muslim immigration, THE issue that decides elections and policies.

It's a secondary problem in their countries (actually, less problematic to the local demography than the extremely low fertility rates and the brain drain with high emigration rates among the youth), no matter how much these right-wing parties and leaders want to make a boogeyman and a big scandal about it to gain the favors of some gullible and faint-hearted voters.

Also, another fact is that, whether people like t admit or not, almost NOBODY dreamed of crossings oceans and continents to arrive in Europe and establish oneself in Hungary, Poland or, worse, Ukraine or Serbia. That's simply not what the immigrants plan, and the best proof for that is that the vast majority of the refugees and immigrants pass through Hungary and willingly leave: their destination is simply NOT there, period. There was, aren't and won't be any massive influx of immigrants who make everything to get to live there as in France, Germany or Sweden. Even in the worst scenario, they'd receive a moderate influx of a few thousands of immigrants per year, even if the EU quotas were established and respected.

Except for desperate war refugees who would accept living in any place free of the burden of war and persecution, the overwhelming majority of immigrants want better job opportunities and public services, and they are willing to risk everything in their nations only if they think they have a lot to gain from that perilous journey. No, most of them don't think Hungary or Poland are worth the risk, and those who reach those territories almost always want to get out of there and move to more developed and multicultural places, with or without Orban, with or without anti-immigration policies.

It baffles me that you and other people can't see that the immigration crisis is real, BUT IT IS NOT AN URGENT ISSUE in the likes of Hungary, Poland or Ukraine at all, and those who keep talking about immigrants and Islam and so on without any big, concrete and imminent risk posed by those things in their countries are just trying to divert people's attention from much more worrisome and direct INTERNAL problems of their countries. "If this, if that" is just not enough to make it such a big issue, especially when the evidences point to the fact that, sorry, but those countries are just not "that" interesting as a major target of economic immigration.If immigrants dont want to go in eastern europe, why are you upset about eastern europe being anti-immigration actually ?

Do you think that most europeans want to poorer the richest continent in the world with third-world immigration for a low rate fertility concern ? We are not sociopaths who leads multinational economic buisnesses, we are in the foreground of the misery. My town is become a shit-hole, i would never accept it whatever the morals that some third party people wants to force us to go with. :smile:

Ygorcs
19-04-18, 06:37
If immigrants dont want to go in eastern europe, why are you upset about eastern europe being anti-immigration actually ?

Do you think that most europeans want to poorer the richest continent in the world with third-world immigration for a low rate fertility concern ? We are not sociopaths who leads multinational economic buisnesses, we are in the foreground of the misery. My town is become a shit-hole, i would never accept it whatever the morals that some third party people wants to force us to go with. :smile:

Because I don't like liars, demagogues and manipulative politicians who try to hide the deeper problems of their own societies under the carpet to have easier and better electoral gains and avoid being pressured into discussing and proposing concrete and more elaborate solutions - which they don't have at all - instead of such an easy excuse as scapegoating some outsider group, potentially even harming other people (no matter if they are a massive population or a tiny minority). Much less I do like them when all those upsetting things come together into the same people. I think those are more than enough reasons for anyone who enjoyes reasonableness, honesty and truth to be upset about it.

gyms
19-04-18, 09:09
Ygorcs:"The only problem is that that would explain the increasing support to right-wing positions in Western Europe, mainly in countries like France, Germany and Sweden, but in Poland, in Hungary, in Ukraine? Islam is the religion of less than 0.3% of Hungarians,"

The Ottoman Turks under Sultan Suleiman I (“the Mangificent”) incorporated the central portion of the Kingdom of Hungary, including Budapest, into the Ottoman Empire in 1541, holding control over this territory until 1699.

Central Hungary constituted an integral part of the Ottoman Empire for 145 years. The expulsion of the Turks from Hungary began with the victory of Christian forces under the command of King of Poland John III Sobieski over Ottoman armies laying siege to the city of Vienna in 1683.

https://theorangefiles.hu/ottoman-hungary/

At the end of the 15th century, Hungary had been one of the strongest and richest countries of Europe. During the reign of Matthias Corvinus, which ended in 1490, the population was about the same as that of England: four million, of which 75 to 80 per cent were of Magyar stock. When the Hungarian Diet tried to compile data on the survivors in 1720, the population of Hungary was found to be 1,770,000 and 800,000 in Transylvania. But the number of Magyars was as low as 45 per cent.

http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/hunspir/hsp25.htm

gyms
19-04-18, 10:11
The only problem is that that would explain the increasing support to right-wing positions in Western Europe, mainly in countries like France, Germany and Sweden, but in Poland, in Hungary, in Ukraine? Islam is the religion of less than 0.3% of Hungarians, in Poland only 0.1% of the population is Muslim, in Ukraine just 0.6% to 0.9% (and many of them are in fact native European & Ukrainian nationals of steppe Turkic origin). Islam is simply a minor religion in those countries, and there are undoubtedly more people of Poland or Ukraine living outside their country than immigrants "invading" those countries. Hungary, according to its own official statistics, has a mere 151k immigrants, out of which 99.2k (66%) are from Europe, not the feared "others" (source: https://www.ksh.hu/docs/eng/xstadat/xstadat_annual/i_wnvn001b.html)

Who are those people trying to fool as if they were big targets threatened by massive hordes of Muslim foreigners who want to stay there and take their land (especially worrisome when they just happen to be brown-skinned, I must add ironically)?

If they really believe that, then they must be suffering from a political sort of anxiety disorder or panic syndrome. The funny thing is that the scapegoating seems to work even when the Islam bogeyman is far far away. Even in Germany right-wing anti-Islam sentiments are mainly increasing in Eastern Germany, where the percentage of Muslims is tiny and probably most people outside Berlin and other big centers rarely if ever see a Muslim family in their neighborhoods.

Hungary: Violent Swarms of Immigrants Attack Hungarian Border Police
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LD2BGT26qI

Hungarian police block refugees and migrants outside Keleti train station

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deI8-oBqA7g

Migrants in Budapest Keleti railway station
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eRQKJOg2FI

gyms
19-04-18, 10:39
Well, if start with too many "if if if if" and we'll never reach any objective conclusion about this or any other subject. Let's go back to the real world for now, the world where there is no reasonable sign at all that they would have millions of Muslims desperately wanting to flock towards Hungary "if" (another if) they didn't do anything.
The real-world fact is that those Eastern European countries actually have NO significant problem with immigration at all, so it is baffling that it is a big electoral and political topic there, mainly as scapegoating was also very good for political profits in times of crisis (of economy, identity, political transition etc.). They all should have much more pressing and - more importantly - REAL, not based on "ifs", problems that they should be very concerned with before even thinking of considering immigration, let alone Muslim immigration, THE issue that decides elections and policies.

It's a secondary problem in their countries (actually, less problematic to the local demography than the extremely low fertility rates and the brain drain with high emigration rates among the youth), no matter how much these right-wing parties and leaders want to make a boogeyman and a big scandal about it to gain the favors of some gullible and faint-hearted voters.

Also, another fact is that, whether people like t admit or not, almost NOBODY dreamed of crossings oceans and continents to arrive in Europe and establish oneself in Hungary, Poland or, worse, Ukraine or Serbia. That's simply not what the immigrants plan, and the best proof for that is that the vast majority of the refugees and immigrants pass through Hungary and willingly leave: their destination is simply NOT there, period. There was, aren't and won't be any massive influx of immigrants who make everything to get to live there as in France, Germany or Sweden. Even in the worst scenario, they'd receive a moderate influx of a few thousands of immigrants per year, even if the EU quotas were established and respected.

Except for desperate war refugees who would accept living in any place free of the burden of war and persecution, the overwhelming majority of immigrants want better job opportunities and public services, and they are willing to risk everything in their nations only if they think they have a lot to gain from that perilous journey. No, most of them don't think Hungary or Poland are worth the risk, and those who reach those territories almost always want to get out of there and move to more developed and multicultural places, with or without Orban, with or without anti-immigration policies.

It baffles me that you and other people can't see that the immigration crisis is real, BUT IT IS NOT AN URGENT ISSUE in the likes of Hungary, Poland or Ukraine at all, and those who keep talking about immigrants and Islam and so on without any big, concrete and imminent risk posed by those things in their countries are just trying to divert people's attention from much more worrisome and direct INTERNAL problems of their countries. "If this, if that" is just not enough to make it such a big issue, especially when the evidences point to the fact that, sorry, but those countries are just not "that" interesting as a major target of economic immigration.

"No, most of them don't think Hungary or Poland are worth the risk, and those who reach those territories almost always want to get out of there and move to more developed and multicultural places, with or without Orban, with or without anti-immigration policies."


You are not ignorant...

Soviet Occupation of Hungary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVUoW8XeS8Y

The Soviet Story - Soviet Invasion of Poland, September 17, 1939, an excerpt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFTtuHxxBLo

Hungary Economic Outlook
https://www.focus-economics.com/countries/hungary

Austria, Hungary, and the Habsburgs: Central Europe c.1683-1867
http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199541621.001.0001/acprof-9780199541621

HUNGARY UNDER THE HABSBURGS
http://motherearthtravel.com/history/hungary/history-6.htm

DOUBLE OCCUPATION

Until the Nazi occupation in 1944, Hungary had a legitimately elected government and parliament, where opposition parties functioned normally and members of the National Assembly sat in Parliament.
http://www.terrorhaza.hu/en/allando-kiallitas/second_floor/double-occupation

gyms
19-04-18, 11:29
"Homeland first of all"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVxvx1gUPxU

I1a3_Young
19-04-18, 16:30
Those dastardly rebels on the right
Concerned with impending plight
Voted away plunder
Nations torn asunder
Now sprung a new form of fright

Ygorcs
19-04-18, 19:35
Ygorcs:"The only problem is that that would explain the increasing support to right-wing positions in Western Europe, mainly in countries like France, Germany and Sweden, but in Poland, in Hungary, in Ukraine? Islam is the religion of less than 0.3% of Hungarians,"

The Ottoman Turks under Sultan Suleiman I (“the Mangificent”) incorporated the central portion of the Kingdom of Hungary, including Budapest, into the Ottoman Empire in 1541, holding control over this territory until 1699.

Central Hungary constituted an integral part of the Ottoman Empire for 145 years. The expulsion of the Turks from Hungary began with the victory of Christian forces under the command of King of Poland John III Sobieski over Ottoman armies laying siege to the city of Vienna in 1683.

https://theorangefiles.hu/ottoman-hungary/

At the end of the 15th century, Hungary had been one of the strongest and richest countries of Europe. During the reign of Matthias Corvinus, which ended in 1490, the population was about the same as that of England: four million, of which 75 to 80 per cent were of Magyar stock. When the Hungarian Diet tried to compile data on the survivors in 1720, the population of Hungary was found to be 1,770,000 and 800,000 in Transylvania. But the number of Magyars was as low as 45 per cent.

http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/hunspir/hsp25.htm


Interesting historic background... but I do hope that public policies and political priorities in 2018 aren't being defined on the basis of what happened in a very different context and for a very different reason (imperialistic conquests, not economic immigration nor waves of refugees) in the 17th century. That would again just prove my point that this is all a too facile way to divert the attention of people from much more present, urgent, imminent problems and challenges that they are going to face in the very near future and aren't even taking as a priority to find solutions.

gyms
19-04-18, 20:03
Interesting historic background... but I do hope that public policies and political priorities in 2018 aren't being defined on the basis of what happened in a very different context and for a very different reason (imperialistic conquests, not economic immigration nor waves of refugees) in the 17th century. That would again just prove my point that this is all a too facile way to divert the attention of people from much more present, urgent, imminent problems and challenges that they are going to face in the very near future and aren't even taking as a priority to find solutions.

Edmund Burke: "History is a pact between the dead, the living, and the yet unborn."

Angela
19-04-18, 20:13
Europeans should stop holding on to grudges and fears from 600 or 1000 years ago.

Ygorcs
19-04-18, 20:21
"No, most of them don't think Hungary or Poland are worth the risk, and those who reach those territories almost always want to get out of there and move to more developed and multicultural places, with or without Orban, with or without anti-immigration policies."


You are not ignorant...

Soviet Occupation of Hungary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVUoW8XeS8Y

The Soviet Story - Soviet Invasion of Poland, September 17, 1939, an excerpt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFTtuHxxBLo

Hungary Economic Outlook
https://www.focus-economics.com/countries/hungary

Austria, Hungary, and the Habsburgs: Central Europe c.1683-1867
http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199541621.001.0001/acprof-9780199541621

HUNGARY UNDER THE HABSBURGS
http://motherearthtravel.com/history/hungary/history-6.htm

DOUBLE OCCUPATION

Until the Nazi occupation in 1944, Hungary had a legitimately elected government and parliament, where opposition parties functioned normally and members of the National Assembly sat in Parliament.
http://www.terrorhaza.hu/en/allando-kiallitas/second_floor/double-occupation

All very fine, but this is 2018 and we're talking about the public perceptions by third-world people. What happened decades ago or even what real life is there does not matter. Most migrants from far away have this perception that good jobs and social benefits can only be easily found in Western/North Europe, and of course that is why the vast majority of them make no effort to say in the Balkans, Hungary or Poland, they just use those lands as a bridge to their preferred destination. It doesn't really matter what the truth is, but what they think it is, and they just aren't that interested in most of Eastern Europe, as the patterns of the last migration crisis have clearly demonstrated (a real massive horde of people - but the overwhelming majority just passing by). It's based on those "Western" dreams and most often mere illusions that they decide to undergo all sorts of risks.

gyms
19-04-18, 20:55
Europeans should stop holding on to grudges and fears from 600 or 1000 years ago.

Why? Islam has not changed in the last 1400 years.

davef
19-04-18, 20:59
I highly doubt say, a 50 year old electrical engineer from Syria who wants a career in a safe place without having to worry about gas attacks has dreams of Islamic domination of the west; he's migrating to ensure his safety and survival. If anything, he would more than likely despise radical religous rule due to the damage it causes.

gyms
19-04-18, 21:26
How Islam Became The Fastest Growing Religion In Europe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOeAWy2vTCA

Islam fastest growing religion in UK as churches decline
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmqrFK4-OfQ

Muslims want ‘Islamic conquest of Europe’, Austrian cardinal says
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFRjvSJ01S8


Douglas Murray - The Strange Death of Europe II
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nI5l8OCHeY

Ygorcs
19-04-18, 23:07
Edmund Burke: "History is a pact between the dead, the living, and the yet unborn."
Okay, so the implication is that that "horrendous" 0.1-0.3% of Muslim people in the country is a sign of awful things yet to come if nothing is done... It still doesn't explain why on earth this is considered a top priority of the country's politics, especially as they keep ignoring the awful youth and brain drain, the unsustainable demographic trends, obstacles to higher productivity growth and much more. If this was about the USA, Germany or even France or the UK, I'd try harder to be understanding, but, frankly, considering the present context it all sounds like a bit of historic grudge mixed with a lot of paranoia, sensationalism and political diversion.

gyms
20-04-18, 09:28
Okay, so the implication is that that "horrendous" 0.1-0.3% of Muslim people in the country is a sign of awful things yet to come if nothing is done... It still doesn't explain why on earth this is considered a top priority of the country's politics, especially as they keep ignoring the awful youth and brain drain, the unsustainable demographic trends, obstacles to higher productivity growth and much more. If this was about the USA, Germany or even France or the UK, I'd try harder to be understanding, but, frankly, considering the present context it all sounds like a bit of historic grudge mixed with a lot of paranoia, sensationalism and political diversion.

Sweet dreams Ygorcs.

LeBrok
20-04-18, 19:51
How Islam Became The Fastest Growing Religion In Europe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOeAWy2vTCA

Islam fastest growing religion in UK as churches decline
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmqrFK4-OfQ

Muslims want ‘Islamic conquest of Europe’, Austrian cardinal says
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFRjvSJ01S8


Douglas Murray - The Strange Death of Europe II
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nI5l8OCHeYgyms, I believe you are so scared of the world that you are missing on life. This is not healthy.

LABERIA
20-04-18, 19:58
Soros foundations to quit Hungary amid political hostility (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-soros-hungary/soros-foundations-to-quit-hungary-amid-political-hostility-idUSKBN1HQ2SJ)

gyms
21-04-18, 08:59
gyms, I believe you are so scared of the world that you are missing on life. This is not healthy.

Pew Research Center has modeled three scenarios that vary depending on future levels of migration.
http://www.pewforum.org/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsRnFQUOawQ

gyms
21-04-18, 09:08
Soros foundations to quit Hungary amid political hostility (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-soros-hungary/soros-foundations-to-quit-hungary-amid-political-hostility-idUSKBN1HQ2SJ)




George Soros admits Nazi collaboration with no regrets
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Id0-Lsyr0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Id0-Lsyr0)

gyms
21-04-18, 09:35
George Soros is visiting Brussels..

http://fidesz-eu.hu/en/george-soros-brussels/ (http://fidesz-eu.hu/en/george-soros-brussels/)

A week after the elections George Soros travelled to Brussels to hold talks with the Vice President of the European Commission
https://thehungaryjournal.wordpress.com/2018/04/18/szijjarto-to-soros-we-will-not-back-down/

George Soros has pledged an extra £100,000 to a campaign to keep Britain in the EU
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43030870



Facts are facts,dottore.

LeBrok
21-04-18, 16:14
George Soros admits Nazi collaboration with no regrets
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Id0-Lsyr0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Id0-Lsyr0) Believable fake news for you, ha? I bet it confirms your bias. Anyway, if you believe it you should like Soros then. You like hyper nationalism and protection of white christian race, right?

gyms
21-04-18, 19:55
Fake news? So he is lying... Protection of white christian race?How many races are there?Is Soros blue?Or green?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Vjp89vmYQ

LeBrok
21-04-18, 20:14
Fake news? So he is lying... Protection of white christian race?How many races are there?Is Soros blue?Or green?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Vjp89vmYQYou just don't understand what he means, because of your bies. Don't you want to protect white and christian character of Sweden?

gyms
21-04-18, 21:28
I want to protect my security,democacy,equality,neutrality........the swedish way of life. What's wrong with that?
I want to live in peace and quiet.

LeBrok
21-04-18, 21:40
I want to protect my security,democacy,equality,neutrality........the swedish way of life. What's wrong with that?
I want to live in peace and quiet.Me too, and I have it in here Canada together with races and religions from around the globe. I have no idea why is it so existentially importance for you to keep Sweden white and christian then?!!!

gyms
21-04-18, 21:50
Me too, and I have it in here Canada together with races and religions from around the globe. I have no idea why is it so existentially importance for you to keep Sweden white and christian then?!!!
Why not?
It's not the only thing you don't understand and you will never undestand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGXoswgrwtE

exceededminimumso..
21-04-18, 22:03
Muslims want ‘Islamic conquest of Europe’, Austrian cardinal says
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFRjvSJ01S8


I only take cardinals seriously when they teach about marital affairs and sex

LeBrok
21-04-18, 22:18
Why not?Because it is racism and it is wrong! Why is it wrong? Because it creates conflicts and killed millions of people around the world through centuries!!! Besides, if you believe in this, you can't be Christian. Christ embraced, helped and taught to love, all people of all races and religions. What kind of Christian are you?

It's not the only thing you don't understand and you will never undestand.What not to understand? You subscribe to tribalism, one of basic human social instincts. In your case, the instinct is very pronounced. Simple like this. We don't need psychologist, new hypothesis or supernatural world to explain it. Everybody has it in some degree, me too. In your case, it is extreme, and I know many people like you. And it is hard for them to find themselves in today's shrinking world and feel good about future. I know how it works. And I know it is not good for the world, or for personal health and future. This way of thinking turned catastrophic in its consequences in 20 century when over 100 millions people died just in Europe. From the hatred of the other "tribe", which means nation, religion and subrace. Tribalism didn't bring anything good in the modern world. It is bad.

The problem for you however is that tribalism is in conflict with Christ teaching. If you want to subscribe to tribalism, you can't be christian, period!

Ygorcs
21-04-18, 22:34
Pew Research Center has modeled three scenarios that vary depending on future levels of migration.
http://www.pewforum.org/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsRnFQUOawQ

That's a good study that just proves what I have said before: if this debate is done in Western Europe or in Northern Europe, I definitely agree that it is necessary to have a serious collective decision on limits to immigration because the society and economy just can't integrate and assimilate so many people so rapidly, and this could trigger increasing problems, HOWEVER it's also demonstrated that many Eastern European states where panic against immigration is even higher than in the West are being really over the top and choosing it as a convenient priority to divert people's attention from much more structural and chronic problems that are entirely internal (and, of course, are inconvenient to powerful politicians because they were caused in a large part by the policies enacted by those politicians in the past). Those countries who are leaning to the right in worrisome ways are not Sweden or Germany, they don't experience any significant population replacement AT ALL, and all the objective data confirm that (those fantasy scenarios of agenda-driven nutcases don't matter).


Poland is estimated to have 0.2% of Muslims in 2050, the Czech Republic 1.2%, Hungary 4.5%, Romania 0.9% - and that is in the HIGH MIGRATION SCENARIO (which the study itself acknowledges that is most unlikely because it assumes that the rat of the record years of migration crisis will simply go on indefinitely). If we consider the MOST PLAUSIBLE scenario, which is the MIDDLE one, the numbers are even less conducive to all this sensationalist panic: 1.3% for Hungary, 1.1% for Czech Republic, 0.8% for Romania, 0.2% Poland.

Oh the barbarian hordes are coming! - just not. Meanwhile, I'm sure those nations have much more pressing and, even worse, structural issues that they aren't simply discussing much at all how to solve while they still can before things get more complicated and, hopefully, even before they suffer the worst consequences of their alarming demographic decline.

One doesn't have to be a genius to notice that, in this matter, Hungary and, even much less so, Poland aren't remotely comparable to Sweden or Germany. One also doesn't have to be a genius to notice that France, which has the highest Muslim population now, is supposed to have less Muslims than other countries in 2050, for the very simple reason that the French people as a whole still has a moderately sustainable pattern of fertility, birth and death rates. They are still willing to make families. But for some other nations it's better to pretend that there is "no social and economic problems" at all with their countries' socio-economic system to make fertility rates drop to as low as 1.1.

Yetos
21-04-18, 22:42
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iaxDxHUWP8


Vertrieben, Mein Land
Vertreiben, Mein Land
Vergessen, Mein Land
Nirgends kann ich bleiben
Mein Land

LeBrok
21-04-18, 23:13
That's a good study that just proves what I have said before: if this debate is done in Western Europe or in Northern Europe, I definitely agree that it is necessary to have a serious collective decision on limits to immigration because the society and economy just can't integrate and assimilate so many people so rapidly, and this could trigger increasing problems, HOWEVER it's also demonstrated that many Eastern European states where panic against immigration is even higher than in the West are being really over the top and choosing it as a convenient priority to divert people's attention from much more structural and chronic problems that are entirely internal (and, of course, are inconvenient to powerful politicians because they were caused in a large part by the policies enacted by those politicians in the past). Those countries who are leaning to the right in worrisome ways are not Sweden or Germany, they don't experience any significant population replacement AT ALL, and all the objective data confirm that (those fantasy scenarios of agenda-driven nutcases don't matter).


Poland is estimated to have 0.2% of Muslims in 2050, the Czech Republic 1.2%, Hungary 4.5%, Romania 0.9% - and that is in the HIGH MIGRATION SCENARIO (which the study itself acknowledges that is most unlikely because it assumes that the rat of the record years of migration crisis will simply go on indefinitely). If we consider the MOST PLAUSIBLE scenario, which is the MIDDLE one, the numbers are even less conducive to all this sensationalist panic: 1.3% for Hungary, 1.1% for Czech Republic, 0.8% for Romania, 0.2% Poland.

Oh the barbarian hordes are coming! - just not. Meanwhile, I'm sure those nations have much more pressing and, even worse, structural issues that they aren't simply discussing much at all how to solve while they still can before things get more complicated and, hopefully, even before they suffer the worst consequences of their alarming demographic decline.

One doesn't have to be a genius to notice that, in this matter, Hungary and, even much less so, Poland aren't remotely comparable to Sweden or Germany. One also doesn't have to be a genius to notice that France, which has the highest Muslim population now, is supposed to have less Muslims than other countries in 2050, for the very simple reason that the French people as a whole still has a moderately sustainable pattern of fertility, birth and death rates. They are still willing to make families. But for some other nations it's better to pretend that there is "no social and economic problems" at all with their countries' socio-economic system to make fertility rates drop to as low as 1.1. Well put and taken things in perspective. It shouldn't really matter what religion or none is in Europe or not. What should matter is that European populations as well as immigrants believe in freedom, tolerance, inclusiveness, equality, democracy and all other ideals of the Western Culture. And of course immigration should be balanced to economy of a country. The only problem so far I have with immigration is acceptance of very culturally and religiously conservative people into the West. It is not good for these immigrants and not good for a host country. It creates isolated minorities, ghettos, cultural conflicts, hatred, divisions, and possibility of western freedoms being hijacked by intolerance and ruined.

firetown
21-04-18, 23:55
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iaxDxHUWP8


Vertrieben, Mein Land
Vertreiben, Mein Land
Vergessen, Mein Land
Nirgends kann ich bleiben
Mein Land
He feels chased from his country? Germany has chased away far too many people for me to feel any sort of anything towards such a non-statement.

ROS
22-04-18, 00:58
Rammstein go group, the only song in Spanish is "I love you *****" why?
One consoles himself by considering, that unfortunately there are prostitutes everywhere.

Yetos
22-04-18, 03:06
Rammstein go group, the only song in Spanish is "I love you *****" why?
One consoles himself by considering, that unfortunately there are prostitutes everywhere.

Spanish can also be Latin
and are not spoken only in Spain
Don't you think?

ROS
22-04-18, 03:28
I insist unfortunately prostitutes are everywhere.

LABERIA
22-04-18, 06:08
I insist unfortunately prostitutes are everywhere.
Yes, but the best prostitutes in the world are in Russia, Putin himself said this.

Yetos
22-04-18, 09:10
Yes, but the best prostitutes in the world are in Russia, Putin himself said this.


I insist unfortunately prostitutes are everywhere.

Ramstein song, 'Moscow'
Ramstein song 'Te quiero .....'
Ramstein song 'Das model' Kraftwerk remaster

gyms
22-04-18, 09:38
Because it is racism and it is wrong! Why is it wrong? Because it creates conflicts and killed millions of people around the world through centuries!!! Besides, if you believe in this, you can't be Christian. Christ embraced, helped and taught to love, all people of all races and religions. What kind of Christian are you?
What not to understand? You subscribe to tribalism, one of basic human social instincts. In your case, the instinct is very pronounced. Simple like this. We don't need psychologist, new hypothesis or supernatural world to explain it. Everybody has it in some degree, me too. In your case, it is extreme, and I know many people like you. And it is hard for them to find themselves in today's shrinking world and feel good about future. I know how it works. And I know it is not good for the world, or for personal health and future. This way of thinking turned catastrophic in its consequences in 20 century when over 100 millions people died just in Europe. From the hatred of the other "tribe", which means nation, religion and subrace. Tribalism didn't bring anything good in the modern world. It is bad.

The problem for you however is that tribalism is in conflict with Christ teaching. If you want to subscribe to tribalism, you can't be christian, period!

"Because it is racism and it is wrong!"

Enjoy the movie!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC2VQjSgpso

Have a great time!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AediQLpoGGM

Northener
22-04-18, 14:13
In Hungarian elections, 70% of the vote went to right wing nationalist parties.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43693663

Well, in their case, their last really "autochthonous" government was a fascist one, so there you go.

Generally speaking there is an uphheal of right wing populist party's all over Europe.
Beneath that there are differences....
For Hungary there a specific factors like the decline in some area's, young talented people moving to the west etc. The idea with fall of the own curtain the differences with NW Europe would more and more disappear is on the whole did not come through. I guess the idea being in decline is a big factor behind this all.
And don't forget that the revolt in the sixties was in Eastern Europe to defend national rights against the Sovjet Union. In the West it was more flower power like.
As a result the biggest right wing populist party of the Netherlands is defending gay rights in a way that would be impossible in Eastern Europe or even in the US (Trump).

gyms
22-04-18, 16:55
Once again for you,Ygorcs:

Ygocs:"...they don't experience any significant population replacement AT ALL, and all the objective data confirm that (those fantasy scenarios of agenda-driven nutcases don't matter)."

Just wait,Ygorcs!

At the end of the 15th century, Hungary had been one of the strongest and richest countries of Europe. During the reign of Matthias Corvinus, which ended in 1490, the population was about the same as that of England: four million, of which 75 to 80 per cent were of Magyar stock. When the Hungarian Diet tried to compile data on the survivors in 1720, the population of Hungary was found to be 1,770,000 and 800,000 in Transylvania. But the number of Magyars was as low as 45 per cent.
http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/hunspir/hsp25.htm

Ygorcs:"...HOWEVER it's also demonstrated that many Eastern European states where panic against immigration is even higher than in the West are being really over the top and choosing it as a convenient priority to divert people's attention from much more structural and chronic problems that are entirely internal (and, of course, are inconvenient to powerful politicians because they were caused in a large part by the policies enacted by those politicians in the past)."

"demonstrated"???!
You have no clue about Central and Eastern Europe!

BUDAPEST — Forget the politics for a moment — check out the economics.
Central and Eastern EU members are in Brussels’ bad books (https://www.politico.eu/article/hungary-poland-tell-eu-dont-shut-us-out/) over democratic and legal standards but their economies have become some of the bloc’s star performers.




Romania was the fastest growing economy in the EU last year, with an estimated GDP growth rate of 6.4 percent (http://pubdocs.worldbank.org/en/465111512062598806/Global-Economic-Prospects-Jan-2018-Europe-and-Central-Asia-analysis.pdf). Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary are also growing (http://pubdocs.worldbank.org/en/465111512062598806/Global-Economic-Prospects-Jan-2018-Europe-and-Central-Asia-analysis.pdf) more quickly than major economies in Western Europe and boast low unemployment. Of the 12 EU members forecast to grow by 3 percent or more this year, nine are former communist countries in the east of the Continent, according to the European Commission (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2014/528775/IPOL_ATA(2014)528775_EN.pdf).
https://www.politico.eu/article/central-and-eastern-eu-gdp-growth-economies/


Ministry for National EconomyMihály VargaMinister for National Economyhttp://www.kormany.hu/en/ministry-for-national-economy/news/hungarian-economic-outlook-for-2018-even-better-than-in-former-years

Ailchu
22-04-18, 20:47
i can't speak for eastern europe but the rise of the right wing nationalism definitly has to do with the recent refugee crisis. by searching for another thread i found this youtuber from syria with a nice video about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31ven41DAcI
ignore the bad jokes.$
very important point at 3:19.
also 5:10 but thats better for the other thread.
you can't say that eastern europes swing to the right has nothing to do with what is happening in western europe. its exactly this carelessness and naivity of western europe mentioned in the video. they see it and they do not want it. that's why they vote for orban even though there aren't many refugees in their countries.

firetown
22-04-18, 22:23
Why is this forum allowing man-made "phenomena" to outgrow genetic research?

Ygorcs
23-04-18, 01:24
For Hungary there a specific factors like the decline in some area's, young talented people moving to the west etc. The idea with fall of the own curtain the differences with NW Europe would more and more disappear is on the whole did not come through. I guess the idea being in decline is a big factor behind this all.

This is exactly my point: what is most sad and nonsense about all this alarmist focus on the immigration and refugee issue (most often with undeniable racial and ethnic overtones) is that they aren't really putting all these things that you call "decline" (emigration of talented youth, lack of economic perspectives, people not being able to afford a family etc.) as a priority of public policy and political debates. It's an easy scapegoating, much more convenient than the deeper, more complicated real thing, and in fact even before immigration.

When we look the poltical news there, we could think they are the extremely developed nation of Germany receiving 1 million refugees in 2015-16, and not countries with some chronic internal problems more akin to emerging nations AND without any massive and urgent problem with the number of refugees and economic migrants settling there. As far as I can see, it's all a whole lot of political manipulation, politicized strawmen fallacies and diversion from more structural problems that they in fact don't have good proposals on how to solve, or are themselves part of the problem.

Ygorcs
23-04-18, 01:36
At the end of the 15th century, Hungary had been one of the strongest and richest countries of Europe. During the reign of Matthias Corvinus, which ended in 1490, the population was about the same as that of England: four million, of which 75 to 80 per cent were of Magyar stock. When the Hungarian Diet tried to compile data on the survivors in 1720, the population of Hungary was found to be 1,770,000 and 800,000 in Transylvania. But the number of Magyars was as low as 45 per cent.
http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/hunspir/hsp25.htm

That was a slaughter, a horrible depopulation anything, but certainly not a population replacement by the Turks. If it had happened, modern-day Hungary would have a Turkic majority or at least a plurality, and of course it does not. Those Turks were not migrating en masse to that country, nor did they make, in the long term, any significant ethnic replacement. Never mind that you're bringing war-related facts that happened several centuries ago to a discussion about refugee crisis and immigration waves happening in the 2nd decade of the 21st century. Other circumstances, other causes, an entirely different time. Just a bit of anacronistic paranoia, right?

Angela
23-04-18, 01:47
Many European nations, Hungary included, have a history of scapegoating other people and other events for their problems. Old habits die hard, I guess.

I don't know the origin. My reading of Russian history, for example, is that it is endemic in the Russian world view. It's indeed a form of paranoia where everyone, the west (the dreaded "Latin" religion too), the east, the Jews, are all out to destroy Mother Russia.

It also seems to be present in other Eastern European countries and in the Balkans as well, although not only in those places.

I find it very strange. I also think it's not a productive way to view the world.

bicicleur
23-04-18, 07:12
Many European nations, Hungary included, have a history of scapegoating other people and other events for their problems. Old habits die hard, I guess.
I don't know the origin. My reading of Russian history, for example, is that it is endemic in the Russian world view. It's indeed a form of paranoia where everyone, the west (the dreaded "Latin" religion too), the east, the Jews, are all out to destroy Mother Russia.
It also seems to be present in other Eastern European countries and in the Balkans as well, although not only in those places.
I find it very strange. I also think it's not a productive way to view the world.
In every country there are dissident political parties who don't have a viable programm. Their only attraction is that they are against the established parties.
The worse the ruling gevernment delivers, the more popular these parties become.
Now parties focusing on immigration are popular.
That is because Europe does not have a decent immigration policy, and political establishment has presented immigration as something positive per se, which is not. The way immigration in Europe was handled the last decades is simply selfdestructive.
Immigration can be positive, but then it has to be selective and well-organised. It must be a positive experience for both immigrants and natives.

halfalp
23-04-18, 07:27
Because I don't like liars, demagogues and manipulative politicians who try to hide the deeper problems of their own societies under the carpet to have easier and better electoral gains and avoid being pressured into discussing and proposing concrete and more elaborate solutions - which they don't have at all - instead of such an easy excuse as scapegoating some outsider group, potentially even harming other people (no matter if they are a massive population or a tiny minority). Much less I do like them when all those upsetting things come together into the same people. I think those are more than enough reasons for anyone who enjoyes reasonableness, honesty and truth to be upset about it.Demagogy is literally the pendant of Democracy. So for you outsiders groups dont put more problems into the actual endemic problems of a society ? Because this is actually the point that makes European go crazy. Why would you engrow the nation problems with problematic peoples that are not even of your cultural and societal sphere.

gyms
23-04-18, 08:21
Is there any international convention,treaty that obligate Hungary or any other country to receive illegal immigrants?!
I am aware,however,that this is a left-liberal political hysteria.It's a blady neo-marxist agenda...
with many supporters on this forum.

gyms
23-04-18, 09:37
THIS IS ONE OF EUROPE’S BEST KEPT SECRETS They make a strong contribution to the linguistic and cultural diversity of Europe. Together with other Europeans they want to define the future of Europe; a future in which not only large languages or dominant cultures, but also minorities are taken into account. Therefore they want protection and support for the preservation of their identity. This is what the Minority SafePack Initiative calls for.
http://www.minority-safepack.eu/

More than four years ago, the members of the Federal Union of European Nationalities (FUEN) started preparations for a European Citizens’ Initiative. The project is the most important initiative of the minorities in Europe in recent decades. Started with much optimism and political support, the initiative was taken before the European Court of Justice, after the European Commission rejected the initiative in September 2013. According to the European Commission, the proposed initiative fell “manifestly outside the framework of the Commission’s powers”.
https://www.fuen.org/key-topics/european-citizens-initiative/




End discrimination of European minorities !
http://www.e-f-a.org/services/news-single-view/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=1119&cHash=ddb6285d226a4a9db2fa293c11cd3d11

A. Papadimitriou
23-04-18, 10:23
THIS IS ONE OF EUROPE’S BEST KEPT SECRETS

They make a strong contribution to the linguistic and cultural diversity of Europe. Together with other Europeans they want to define the future of Europe; a future in which not only large languages or dominant cultures, but also minorities are taken into account. Therefore they want protection and support for the preservation of their identity. This is what the Minority SafePack Initiative calls for.
http://www.minority-safepack.eu/

More than four years ago, the members of the Federal Union of European Nationalities (FUEN) started preparations for a European Citizens’ Initiative. The project is the most important initiative of the minorities in Europe in recent decades. Started with much optimism and political support, the initiative was taken before the European Court of Justice, after the European Commission rejected the initiative in September 2013. According to the European Commission, the proposed initiative fell “manifestly outside the framework of the Commission’s powers”.
https://www.fuen.org/key-topics/european-citizens-initiative/




End discrimination of European minorities !
http://www.e-f-a.org/services/news-single-view/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=1119&cHash=ddb6285d226a4a9db2fa293c11cd3d11

I don't know what would you say if there was a separatist movement in your country or what will you say when immigrant groups start claiming they should have similar rights with 'minorities'.

gyms
23-04-18, 11:09
I don't know what would you say if there was a separatist movement in your country or what will you say when immigrant groups start claiming they should have similar rights with 'minorities'.

Are all the 50 million European minorities separatists? Illegal immigrants are not indigenous "minorities".

BTW your "argument" is a typical strow man argument.


https://www.britannica.com/event/Treaty-of-Trianon

halfalp
23-04-18, 11:58
Is there any international convention,treaty that obligate Hungary or any other country to receive illegal immigrants?!
I am aware,however,that this is a left-liberal political hysteria.It's a blady neo-marxist agenda...
with many supporters on this forum.Young liberal-leftists are mainly of upper society and family, with good education ( not intelligence ) and a high propension to dedicate their life on pleasures like drug and sex. They are not really the kind of people that makes the world go on. Like LeBrok said we are probably scared, it's way more easy to call out christians and conservtards that are civilized and associated with the society, than to go against islam or barbarians. He probably never go into a fight in is entire life, but he is woke and have a very different opinion on courage and boldness.

A. Papadimitriou
23-04-18, 12:07
Are all the 50 million European minorities separatists? Illegal immigrants are not indigenous "minorities".

BTW your "argument" is a typical strow man argument.


https://www.britannica.com/event/Treaty-of-Trianon

I some countries there are separatists, like Spain for example.

I am pretty sure there was not any argument in my post. Not even a position.

I believe you haven't considered what may happen after some decades with groups of unassimilated immigrants.

At least concerning Greece, a NGO called 'Minority Rights Group International' has already done that. They have considered one group of immigrants (the largest one) a 'minority'. If those are a minority then those from Bangladesh, for example, should be too.

gyms
23-04-18, 12:25
Angela:
"Many European nations, Hungary included, have a history of scapegoating other people and other events for their problems. Old habits die hard, I guess."

Like Italy.
Benito Mussolini. Mussolini was born in Predappio in 1883, the son of a blacksmith. Originally a socialist who had fled to Switzerland to avoid being drafted into the Italian military, Mussolini returned to Italy in 1904 and in 1919 he formed Italy's Fascist Party. As unemployment soared and Italy descended into political anarchy, Mussolini's Fascist Party slowly gained support by running on a vehemently nationalist platform, winning 35 seats in the 1921 elections.
https://study.com/academy/lesson/the-rise-of-benito-mussolini-and-italian-fascism.html

gyms
23-04-18, 15:16
Young liberal-leftists are mainly of upper society and family, with good education ( not intelligence ) and a high propension to dedicate their life on pleasures like drug and sex. They are not really the kind of people that makes the world go on. Like LeBrok said we are probably scared, it's way more easy to call out christians and conservtards that are civilized and associated with the society, than to go against islam or barbarians. He probably never go into a fight in is entire life, but he is woke and have a very different opinion on courage and boldness.

Mental health experts are warning parents about a growing movement in Sweden where some preschools are attempting to eliminate gender differences between boys and girls.
https://www.christianpost.com/news/swedish-preschools-using-gender-neutral-pronoun-not-boys-and-girls-brainwashing-200877/

According to official counts, a disproportionate number of these migrants are young, unmarried, unaccompanied males. In fact, the sex ratios among migrants are so one-sided—we’re talking worse than those in China, in some cases—that they could radically change the gender balance in European countries in certain age cohorts.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/01/europe-refugees-migrant-crisis-men-213500

A debate on masculinity, sexuality, culture and immigration arose across
Europe in 2015.
https://muep.mau.se/bitstream/handle/2043/24723/Becoming%20a%20possible%20threat%20masculinity%20c ulture%20and%20questioning%20among%20unaccompanied %20young%20men%20in%20Sweden.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y

Ygorcs
23-04-18, 16:00
Demagogy is literally the pendant of Democracy. So for you outsiders groups dont put more problems into the actual endemic problems of a society ? Because this is actually the point that makes European go crazy. Why would you engrow the nation problems with problematic peoples that are not even of your cultural and societal sphere.

I just can't believe you're still unable to understand that I have no problem with establishing limits on immigration, especially intercontinental immigration, and discussing this as a top priority WHEN AND WHERE IT IS REALLY AN URGENT AND INDISPENSABLE ISSUE. I'm definitely pro-immigration as far as there is an effort by everyone (the newcomers and the natives) to integrate and assimilate into the dominant cultural sphere (and sorry, but Europe as a whole seems to suck at it, just compare the cultural integration of Middle Easterners in Brazil or even the USA with that of Arabs almost anywhere in Europe). However, I'm also rational enough to believe that that process needs to be very moderate in order to be successful, otherwise it will become a mess because no society is able to integrate millions of people without severe challenges, and of course no society wants immigration to weaken or even dilute itself, instead of strengthening its economy or cultural leverage. So, I'm no proponent of unlimited immigration, rest assured about that.

I already made that point very clear in my previous posts. Sorry, but that's just not the case of Hungary and especially of Poland, Ukraine or Serbia. That immigration has become a top priority in elections, and often with those sensationalist claims of "population replacement" and "existential threat to our culture and race", just shows a lot of demagogue diversionism without virtually any basis on solid facts and objective data, nothing else.

I say again: immigration as a top issue for the future of the society makes sense in Germany or Sweden, NOT in these Eastern European countries, which have A LOT OF MUCH BIGGER chronic issues that their right-wing politicans seem to be throwing under the carpet because they've found a much better thing to do, which is the classic scapegoating and tribalist manipulation of the masses against the "others", the feared "aliens who threat our existence/way of life".

Angela
23-04-18, 16:15
Angela:
"Many European nations, Hungary included, have a history of scapegoating other people and other events for their problems. Old habits die hard, I guess."

Like Italy.
Benito Mussolini. Mussolini was born in Predappio in 1883, the son of a blacksmith. Originally a socialist who had fled to Switzerland to avoid being drafted into the Italian military, Mussolini returned to Italy in 1904 and in 1919 he formed Italy's Fascist Party. As unemployment soared and Italy descended into political anarchy, Mussolini's Fascist Party slowly gained support by running on a vehemently nationalist platform, winning 35 seats in the 1921 elections.
https://study.com/academy/lesson/the-rise-of-benito-mussolini-and-italian-fascism.html

I was talking about SCAPEGOATING. Honestly, where is the logic in what you wrote?

Shall I help you? Mussolini "scapegoated" or blamed a lot of Italy's ills on Britain.

You're welcome.

I would argue he didn't scapegoat Jews or other minorities in Italy. Fascism, as conceived by him, of which I'm not at all proud, did not contain any anti-semitism. That was the contribution of the Germans. Once Mussolini made the fatal mistake of allying himself with Nazi Germany he faced continuing pressure to align Italy's laws with the racial laws of Germany. To our shame, he succumbed.
However, he didn't allow a single Jew to be transported while he and the fascists were in control of Italy. (Indeed, the Italian army tried to shield Jews.) That only happened after the Germans invaded and occupied Italy. The majority of Italy's Jews were hidden and saved.

bicicleur
23-04-18, 16:26
I was talking about SCAPEGOATING. Honestly, where is the logic in what you wrote?
Shall I help you? Mussolini "scapegoated" or blamed a lot of Italy's ills on Britain.
You're welcome.
I would argue he didn't scapegoat Jews or other minorities in Italy. Fascism, as conceived by him, of which I'm not at all proud, did not contain any anti-semitism. That was the contribution of the Germans. Once Mussolini made the fatal mistake of allying himself with Nazi Germany he faced continuing pressure to align Italy's laws with the racial laws of Germany. To our shame, he succumbed.
However, he didn't allow a single Jew to be transported while he and the fascists were in control of Italy. (Indeed, the Italian army tried to shield Jews.) That only happened after the Germans invaded and occupied Italy. The majority of Italy's Jews were hidden and saved.
ok, but I'd like to know who is Orban's scapegoat then
buidling a fence is not scapegoating

there was some scapegoating the eastern Europeans during Brexit

gyms
23-04-18, 16:39
I was talking about SCAPEGOATING. Honestly, where is the logic in what you wrote?

Shall I help you? Mussolini "scapegoated" or blamed a lot of Italy's ills on Britain.

You're welcome.

I would argue he didn't scapegoat Jews or other minorities in Italy. Fascism, as conceived by him, of which I'm not at all proud, did not contain any anti-semitism. That was the contribution of the Germans. Once Mussolini made the fatal mistake of allying himself with Nazi Germany he faced continuing pressure to align Italy's laws with the racial laws of Germany. To our shame, he succumbed.
However, he didn't allow a single Jew to be transported while he and the fascists were in control of Italy. (Indeed, the Italian army tried to shield Jews.) That only happened after the Germans invaded and occupied Italy. The majority of Italy's Jews were hidden and saved.

Hungary was exactly in the same situation.
There is the logic.

You too.

Angela
23-04-18, 16:45
Hungary was exactly in the same situation.
There is the logic.

You too.

No. It wasn't. They happily cooperated with the Nazi plans for the holocaust.

The murderous anti-semitism of Germany and Eastern Europe was never part of Italian culture, even when allied with Germany.

Angela
23-04-18, 16:52
ok, but I'd like to know who is Orban's scapegoat then
buidling a fence is not scapegoating

there was some scapegoating the eastern Europeans during Brexit

It's in his rhetoric, Bicicleur.

As to the latter, yes, there was. I remember reading about anti-Eastern European sentiment. However, being British, they didn't burn people alive in hostels as happened in Germany to some Turkish migrants.

There has also been anti-migrant violence in Italy in some cases. I'm by no means trying to "whitewash" Italy. However, you can't compare the number of migrants in Italy to the number in Eastern Europe.

As Ygorcs has pointed out, they're hyper-ventilating over a problem that doesn't exist in their countries.

Angela
23-04-18, 17:00
No. It wasn't. They happily cooperated with the Nazi plans for the holocaust.

The murderous anti-semitism of Germany and Eastern Europe was never part of Italian culture, even when allied with Germany.

Eastern European fascism included anti-semitism from the very beginning, an anti-semitism which had been endemic there.

You can't re-write history.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_National_Defence_Association

gyms
23-04-18, 17:18
Hungarian PM Speaks - Merkel Not Happy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT_MFvKhBsE

halfalp
23-04-18, 18:03
I just can't believe you're still unable to understand that I have no problem with establishing limits on immigration, especially intercontinental immigration, and discussing this as a top priority WHEN AND WHERE IT IS REALLY AN URGENT AND INDISPENSABLE ISSUE. I'm definitely pro-immigration as far as there is an effort by everyone (the newcomers and the natives) to integrate and assimilate into the dominant cultural sphere (and sorry, but Europe as a whole seems to suck at it, just compare the cultural integration of Middle Easterners in Brazil or even the USA with that of Arabs almost anywhere in Europe). However, I'm also rational enough to believe that that process needs to be very moderate in order to be successful, otherwise it will become a mess because no society is able to integrate millions of people without severe challenges, and of course no society wants immigration to weaken or even dilute itself, instead of strengthening its economy or cultural leverage. So, I'm no proponent of unlimited immigration, rest assured about that.

I already made that point very clear in my previous posts. Sorry, but that's just not the case of Hungary and especially of Poland, Ukraine or Serbia. That immigration has become a top priority in elections, and often with those sensationalist claims of "population replacement" and "existential threat to our culture and race", just shows a lot of demagogue diversionism without virtually any basis on solid facts and objective data, nothing else.

I say again: immigration as a top issue for the future of the society makes sense in Germany or Sweden, NOT in these Eastern European countries, which have A LOT OF MUCH BIGGER chronic issues that their right-wing politicans seem to be throwing under the carpet because they've found a much better thing to do, which is the classic scapegoating and tribalist manipulation of the masses against the "others", the feared "aliens who threat our existence/way of life".I'm sorry but you americans ( in a continental way ) you have a highly propension to liberalize migrations even that you are the biggest killers, migrants of history, you are the europeans responsible for colonialism, so i dont actually see how because brazil is open-minded about it, is actually a positive thing, just look like reparations. Your thousands of economic migrants are not our millions economic migrants. And how is Islam actually integration and assimilation ? Looks more like we let them create a society in the society, or maybe just like the French president, you think you are a god who can create an western european islam. You just try too hard to overcompensate. Lets ask to native amazonians what they think about immigrations, and people coming in their ancestral lands for growing crops. I dont know why you actually are rpetty hysterical about that subject, it's an hot topic, so people gonna say things that you dont like, breathe. And for eastern europe like western europe, it's exactly the same question. How they would resolve their endemic issues if they have to deal with over and over issues brought by the newcomers.

gyms
23-04-18, 18:08
Eastern European fascism included anti-semitism from the very beginning, an anti-semitism which had been endemic there.

You can't re-write history.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_National_Defence_Association

"You can't re-write history."
No.It's your privilege.
btw wikipedia is also leftist.

halfalp
23-04-18, 18:16
And Ygorcs, in Europe, especially in France and Belgium, where muslims people live in no police lands. Mayor or Senators like Philippe Moureaux and Serge Dassault have create a very " indo-european " clientelism with muslims, letting them do what they want, creating communautarism in compensation of their obviously votes. This is the kind of corruption that we can input for exemple to the Socialists.

Ygorcs
23-04-18, 18:34
I'm sorry but you americans ( in a continental way ) you have a highly propension to liberalize migrations even that you are the biggest killers, migrants of history, you are the europeans responsible for colonialism, so i dont actually see how because brazil is open-minded about it, is actually a positive thing, just look like reparations. Your thousands of economic migrants are not our millions economic migrants. And how is Islam actually integration and assimilation ? Looks more like we let them create a society in the society, or maybe just like the French president, you think you are a god who can create an western european islam. You just try too hard to overcompensate. Lets ask to native amazonians what they think about immigrations, and people coming in their ancestral lands for growing crops. I dont know why you actually are rpetty hysterical about that subject, it's an hot topic, so people gonna say things that you dont like, breathe. And for eastern europe like western europe, it's exactly the same question. How they would resolve their endemic issues if they have to deal with over and over issues brought by the newcomers.

Well, maybe you are just uninformed, so for the sake of doubt let met just tell you that Brazil has "just" the largest Arab-descendant population of the world outside any Middle Eastern country and was in the 19th and 20th centuries the 4th largest receiver of immigrants in the entire planet. So, don't talk to meabout "thousands" of economic migrants. I'm talking about the long-term assimilation of foreigners, and how some nations assimilate them more easily than others. Granted, most of the large immigration to Brazil took place a century ago, but, well, even 50 years ago they were already fully integrated and vitually indistinguishable from any other Brazilian community. I have myself had at least 10 classmates of Arab descent. We in fact almost never remembered that fact, because they were 100% just like us.


As for the issue of Islam and so on, you just confirm in your comment exactly what I have commented above: Europe has a real problem with integrrating and assimilating its immigrant populations, even those that migrated many decades ago, and as I also said it's a problem compunded by both the natives AND the immigrants, who are often unwilling to integrate, and the locals don't help that process much by unconsciously favoring this pattern of social, cultural and ethnic segregation, avoiding frequent contacts and mutual exchanges with the outsiders. Integration only happens when there is a whole lot of social integration, otherwise forget it, there will really be a "foreign society" within your society (and integration is of course not just about buying some groceries in the immigrant's shop or the like).

That the politicians of Europe can't deal with that besides simply tolerating the "ethnic ghettos" or trying to get rid of them, possibly because there is a big cultural resistance from both the immigrants and the locals to any profound and long-term assimilation, is just the most visible part of the tragedy that will make sure that it keeps going on.

I'm not hysterical about, you are. I have conceded that Western Europe needs to curb the current immigration rates, but that Eastern European nations are mostly being alarmist and over the top about this issue because the data do not confirm their top-priority concern with the immigration waves. I'm being rational: urgent anti-immigration policies are due only where there is actually a massive immigration issue happening now, not where it's just a hypothetical possibility.

The person that is being black-or-white, irratiionally uncompromising and hysterically against anything that even smells of the word "immigration" here is you.

gyms
23-04-18, 18:44
Angela:"...they're hyper-ventilating over a problem that doesn't exist in their countries."

Would you be able to develop it?You may have some proof as well.

https://www.rt.com/news/403738-hungary-border-fence-migrants/

gyms
23-04-18, 18:56
Well, maybe you are just uninformed, so for the sake of doubt let met just tell you that Brazil has "just" the largest Arab-descendant population of the world outside any Middle Eastern country and was in the 19th and 20th centuries the 4th largest receiver of immigrants in the entire planet. So, don't talk to meabout "thousands" of economic migrants. I'm talking about the long-term assimilation of foreigners, and how some nations assimilate them more easily than others. Granted, most of the large immigration to Brazil took place a century ago, but, well, even 50 years ago they were already fully integrated and vitually indistinguishable from any other Brazilian community. I have myself had at least 10 classmates of Arab descent. We in fact almost never remembered that fact, because they were 100% just like us.


As for the issue of Islam and so on, you just confirm in your comment exactly what I have commented above: Europe has a real problem with integrrating and assimilating its immigrant populations, even those that migrated many decades ago, and as I also said it's a problem compunded by both the natives AND the immigrants, who are often unwilling to integrate, and the locals don't help that process much by unconsciously favoring this pattern of social, cultural and ethnic segregation, avoiding frequent contacts and mutual exchanges with the outsiders. Integration only happens when there is a whole lot of social integration, otherwise forget it, there will really be a "foreign society" within your society (and integration is of course not just about buying some groceries in the immigrant's shop or the like).

That the politicians of Europe can't deal with that besides simply tolerating the "ethnic ghettos" or trying to get rid of them, possibly because there is a big cultural resistance from both the immigrants and the locals to any profound and long-term assimilation, is just the most visible part of the tragedy that will make sure that it keeps going on.

I'm not hysterical about, you are. I have conceded that Western Europe needs to curb the current immigration rates, but that Eastern European nations are mostly being alarmist and over the top about this issue because the data do not confirm their top-priority concern with the immigration waves. I'm being rational: urgent anti-immigration policies are due only where there is actually a massive immigration issue happening now, not where it's just a hypothetical possibility.

The person that is being black-or-white, irratiionally uncompromising and hysterically against anything that even smells of the word "immigration" here is you.
According to the 2010 Census, Brazil has 35.168 muslims, of which 8.277 live in São Paulo, 5.599 in Foz do Iguaçu, 1.307 in Curitiba and 1.292 live in São Bernando de Campo. These are the only cities in Brazil with more than 1.000 muslims. We have only 3 cities with more than 1% of the population muslim:
https://www.quora.com/How-many-Muslims-live-in-Brazil

gyms
23-04-18, 19:04
Douglas Murray - If not a Europe of ideas, then a Europe of tribes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv5WYHDp8H0

Ygorcs
23-04-18, 19:04
According to the 2010 Census, Brazil has 35.168 muslims, of which 8.277 live in São Paulo, 5.599 in Foz do Iguaçu, 1.307 in Curitiba and 1.292 live in São Bernando de Campo. These are the only cities in Brazil with more than 1.000 muslims. We have only 3 cities with more than 1% of the population muslim:
https://www.quora.com/How-many-Muslims-live-in-Brazil

Where did you see me posting anything about Muslim immigrants? Oh, I see, like many misinformed people you think that "Middle Eastern descent = Muslim = dangerous fundamentalist potentially terrorist", right? Sorry, you're wrong. Most Arab Brazilians, who number some 7-10 million people, were either Oriental Christian or they became Christians after they massively integrated into Brazilian society. Many also simply became irreligious in the last few generations. The fact remains: no integration, no assimilation, no willingness of the locals AND also of the migrants to get much closer to each other, and the ultimate result will be a society of ghettos, mutual suspicion and ethnic tensions. That's irrespective of religion or geographic origin. But of course it seems like you people don't want to learn. I hope the real life lessons won't be too drastic when they come (because sooner or later they will).

Ygorcs
23-04-18, 19:08
Angela:"...they're hyper-ventilating over a problem that doesn't exist in their countries."

Would you be able to develop it?You may have some proof as well.

https://www.rt.com/news/403738-hungary-border-fence-migrants/

The overwhelming majority of those thousands of immigrants wouldn't stay in Hungary, as the report itself says they were "crossing" it. They now just found another path to use as a bridge between them and their desired destination in Western/Central Europe. End of story. As of 2018, there is no sign of massive settlement by Middle Easterners in Hungary. Get over it.

I1a3_Young
23-04-18, 19:10
As a result the biggest right wing populist party of the Netherlands is defending gay rights in a way that would be impossible in Eastern Europe or even in the US (Trump).

President Trump is the first US President to support gay rights fully from candidacy. President Obama was not supportive of gay rights during his first candidacy, but later supported the idea when he was in office.

halfalp
23-04-18, 19:10
Well, maybe you are just uninformed, so for the sake of doubt let met just tell you that Brazil has "just" the largest Arab-descendant population of the world outside any Middle Eastern country and was in the 19th and 20th centuries the 4th largest receiver of immigrants in the entire planet. So, don't talk to meabout "thousands" of economic migrants. I'm talking about the long-term assimilation of foreigners, and how some nations assimilate them more easily than others. Granted, most of the large immigration to Brazil took place a century ago, but, well, even 50 years ago they were already fully integrated and vitually indistinguishable from any other Brazilian community. I have myself had at least 10 classmates of Arab descent. We in fact almost never remembered that fact, because they were 100% just like us.


As for the issue of Islam and so on, you just confirm in your comment exactly what I have commented above: Europe has a real problem with integrrating and assimilating its immigrant populations, even those that migrated many decades ago, and as I also said it's a problem compunded by both the natives AND the immigrants, who are often unwilling to integrate, and the locals don't help that process much by unconsciously favoring this pattern of social, cultural and ethnic segregation, avoiding frequent contacts and mutual exchanges with the outsiders. Integration only happens when there is a whole lot of social integration, otherwise forget it, there will really be a "foreign society" within your society (and integration is of course not just about buying some groceries in the immigrant's shop or the like).

That the politicians of Europe can't deal with that besides simply tolerating the "ethnic ghettos" or trying to get rid of them, possibly because there is a big cultural resistance from both the immigrants and the locals to any profound and long-term assimilation, is just the most visible part of the tragedy that will make sure that it keeps going on.

I'm not hysterical about, you are. I have conceded that Western Europe needs to curb the current immigration rates, but that Eastern European nations are mostly being alarmist and over the top about this issue because the data do not confirm their top-priority concern with the immigration waves. I'm being rational: urgent anti-immigration policies are due only where there is actually a massive immigration issue happening now, not where it's just a hypothetical possibility.

The person that is being black-or-white, irratiionally uncompromising and hysterically against anything that even smells of the word "immigration" here is you.We dont talk about the same migration, your context is like the Irish context in America. I'm talk about actual migration, at this time, there was no Muslim Brothers, no pan-arabisme, no occidental islamism, arab women certainly didn't put any burqa like in the egypt and maghreb 50 years ago. I just look at wikipedia about Arab Brazilians they are mostly Christians, how can you not make the link yourself ? Nobody wants Islam in Europe, nobody. There is slightly any reason why christians would want Islam and less more about Atheists, Atheists that pushes a liberal view and acceptation about Islam only make them for validation reasons.

I1a3_Young
23-04-18, 19:20
I'm sorry but you americans ( in a continental way ) you have a highly propension to liberalize migrations even that you are the biggest killers, migrants of history, you are the europeans responsible for colonialism, so i dont actually see how because brazil is open-minded about it, is actually a positive thing, just look like reparations. Your thousands of economic migrants are not our millions economic migrants. And how is Islam actually integration and assimilation ? Looks more like we let them create a society in the society, or maybe just like the French president, you think you are a god who can create an western european islam. You just try too hard to overcompensate. Lets ask to native amazonians what they think about immigrations, and people coming in their ancestral lands for growing crops. I dont know why you actually are rpetty hysterical about that subject, it's an hot topic, so people gonna say things that you dont like, breathe. And for eastern europe like western europe, it's exactly the same question. How they would resolve their endemic issues if they have to deal with over and over issues brought by the newcomers.

I can tell you that the natives I know are anti-immigration. They wish their ancestors had taken that stance in the 1600's.

Ygorcs
23-04-18, 19:30
We dont talk about the same migration, your context is like the Irish context in America. I'm talk about actual migration, at this time, there was no Muslim Brothers, no pan-arabisme, no occidental islamism, arab women certainly didn't put any burqa like in the egypt and maghreb 50 years ago. I just look at wikipedia about Arab Brazilians they are mostly Christians, how can you not make the link yourself ? Nobody wants Islam in Europe, nobody. There is slightly any reason why christians would want Islam and less more about Atheists, Atheists that pushes a liberal view and acceptation about Islam only make them for validation reasons.

Granted, you're right that the politics and ideologies of the Middle East changed a lot since the 1930s/1940s, so the people who came before were most probably much more willing to let themselves be integrated and assimilated into the Western society they migrated to.

As for Islam, I think the problem is with the present Wahhabi-influenced religious ideology that spread in the Middle East with its center of dispersion around Saudi Arabia. Islam wasn't that more conservative than Christianity until the 18th century, though its heavily legalistic doctrine was always a problem (Christianity was always much more lax and vague about most secular things), and even in the early 20th century it was showing some signs of gradually liberalizing. But, alas, Saudi-style Islam was heavily promoted by their oil money.

As I said in previous posts, there is definitely a need for limits on immigration in many European countries (certainly not Hungary and even much less so Poland), because all those people can't be assimilated fast enough especially because both Europeans and the Middle Eastern migrants don't seem to be very bent on interacting heavily with each other and letting mutual influences and exchanges increase to the point of full integration in just a few decades. That can't happen when you have millions, and not thousands, of immigrants in the same middle-sized country. So, I definitely concede that this is an issue that must be controlled in the likes of Germany, Sweden or France... but I maintain that Eastern European parties using this as a convenient scapegoating and hysterical political strawman is little more than a political farce when they have much more pressing problems and aren't being exactly invaded by those Muslim foreigners (certainly not Poland, Hungary at least can argue that they were threatened by a massive number of people crossing their territory, even if most wouldn't stay there anyway).

Angela
23-04-18, 19:37
"You can't re-write history."
No.It's your privilege.
btw wikipedia is also leftist.

I'm making up absolutely nothing.

That political party didn't exist? They didn't preach those things? They didn't get power because of it? The Arrow Cross was made up by leftists?

Can't you be honest and admit what is patently obvious?

Why don't you go back and read contemporaneous, primary sources. That's what I had to do when I wrote my papers about modern European history.

It didn't make me very proud of Italian history in the 20s and 30s, but it is what it is and has to be accepted.

Just admit that this is just a continuation of attitudes that are centuries old in Eastern Europe.

I1a3_Young
23-04-18, 20:06
The overwhelming majority of those thousands of immigrants wouldn't stay in Hungary, as the report itself says they were "crossing" it. They now just found another path to use as a bridge between them and their desired destination in Western/Central Europe. End of story. As of 2018, there is no sign of massive settlement by Middle Easterners in Hungary. Get over it.

This is true. It's also true that Hungarians and others have seen the impact and failure to assimilate too many migrants in some Euro countries. It also angers them to be told by EU leadership that they must accept them. The entire concept of being forced to accept them is perplexing. Why are the EU leaders so adamant about having no choice but to import another 150 million in the next 10 years? As if they hold no power over the decision?

Just as the far right has members that make ridiculous claims, the far left has them too. The idea that most of the migrants are some sort of engineer or doctor is ridiculous. The tax revenue generated from employed migrants in Germany wasn't even enough to pay for the administration to distribute welfare to migrants, much less the actual value of benefits.

The far left also works to conceal hard facts and data because it makes people uncomfortable and in their words might bolster the arguments of the far right. If simple facts are so damaging to an ideology then perhaps it is flawed.

This thread has beat to death the idea of the rise of the far right and immigration. I think it has been established that the two are intertwined. If the left wants to stop the rise of the right then they should work to stop the rapid levels of immigration. It's that simple.

America is a diverse place but not without great conflict. Large amounts of poor immigrants have always caused huge problems that we've had to overcome as a nation. It seems guaranteed among humans that this will happen.

So, if you are fighting against the far right in the battle of ideas, you are fighting human nature which will always be difficult.

I have not yet read a coherent and rational reason for the Euro immigration as it stands as opposed to sending aid or otherwise helping the needy in their own countries.

Northener
23-04-18, 20:17
President Trump is the first US President to support gay rights fully from candidacy. President Obama was not supportive of gay rights during his first candidacy, but later supported the idea when he was in office.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/us/politics/white-house-lgbt-rights-military-civil-rights-act.html

http://time.com/5104657/donald-trump-lgbt-rights/

gyms
23-04-18, 20:28
The overwhelming majority of those thousands of immigrants wouldn't stay in Hungary, as the report itself says they were "crossing" it. They now just found another path to use as a bridge between them and their desired destination in Western/Central Europe. End of story. As of 2018, there is no sign of massive settlement by Middle Easterners in Hungary. Get over it.

Do you know what "refugee"quota is? Have you heard about it?
"...their desired destination..." Asylum is not wish programe!
Have you heard about Schengen external border controls?
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/migratory-pressures/strengthening-external-borders/

Ygorcs
23-04-18, 20:43
Do you know what "refugee"quota is? Have you heard about it?
"...their desired destination..." Asylum is not wish programe!
Have you heard about Schengen external border controls?
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/migratory-pressures/strengthening-external-borders/

Of course it isn't, but we're dealing with real world issues and therefore it doesn't matter what it SHOULD be or not be, but what in fact happens.

Of course (again), there must be some pragmatic controls. Another thing is political sensationalism and ideological hysteria.

The refugee quotas were for Eastern European countries were mostly tiny, of the kind that wouldn't make even a dent in the alarmist "population replacement" that is actually not happening.

Ygorcs
23-04-18, 20:47
This is true. It's also true that Hungarians and others have seen the impact and failure to assimilate too many migrants in some Euro countries. It also angers them to be told by EU leadership that they must accept them. The entire concept of being forced to accept them is perplexing. Why are the EU leaders so adamant about having no choice but to import another 150 million in the next 10 years? As if they hold no power over the decision?.

150 million in the next 10 years? Do you have some source for that claim? I mean, even during the appex of the refugee crisis the estimated number of refugees/pseudo-refugee economic immigrants was around 1 to 1.5 million immigrants. Even if that pace of immigration remained (which it didn't after 2016) that would make 10-15 million people in 10 years, and I'm sure there wouldn't be more than 10-15 million purely economic migrants coming from other places and via other routes. I don't dispute your claims and preoccupations with the ineffective and unpragmatic policies of immigration of the EU and most West European countries, and you're right in that the left must tackle this issue in some way or another (but not simply support the status quo while it is clearly not working out well)... but I think there is also some exaggeration that forces us to bring people back to the reality, even if to criticize it and find solutions.

Yetos
23-04-18, 20:59
what is the difference of free world,
with caynes
with capitalism
with anrcho-capitalism
with colonial-ism
with expanionism
with ....

CAN SOMEONE TELL ME THE LIMITS OF NATION or a country, or a state?
offcourse
CAN SOMEONE TELL ME THE LIMITS OF A CORPORATION?
probably,
CAN SOMEONE TELL ME THE LIMITS OF A MULTINATIONAL CORPORATION OR A MULTINATIONAL BANK?
NO nobody,


On the other hand,
how much equality can have a society have,
and how much depressure and negativity creates working in a hard job, in an easy job, in a dangerous job,
and have the same, without hope,
just pathetic,
so the κοινον of a nation is a must,
but the glory is different,
crating a nomenclass that will lead us to 'equality' is just an oligarchic dictatorship,
we must balance among the limits of a productive society, that no man become carnivore of another man,
and also have structures to stabilize society and the weaks of the team,
offcourse that does not mean that the weak must eat the flesh of the strong neither the oposite,

yes from Left to Right and back,
when a society pass the limits,
it is the duty of members to bring balance.

NO CLEAR AND TRANSPARENT LIMITS,
MORE THE PROTEST VOTE


BASIC HUMAN REACTIONS
SHELF DEFENCE
SHELF MANAGEMENT
SIMILAR SOCIETY REACTIONS
SOCIAL DEFENCE BY PROTEST AND UNWILLING OBEY
SOCIAL MANAGEMENT BY TAKING THE LAW IN HANDS

the Social defense, simmilar to shelf defence is when someones the limit of anexation, of a group, or a person
IN MODERN WORLD IS EXPRESSED BY VOTING

THE SOCIAL MANAGEMENT is mainly a job of politicians, law and justice, and police,
IF THEY CAN NOT HEAR THE VOICES OF THE GROUP,
THEN GROUP MIGHT TAKE THE LAW IN HIS HANDS,
ALTHOUGH THIS IS NOT A WILLING ACTION, AND IS PUNISHABLE.
IF THE MANAGERS ARE DEAF, IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, THE FAILURE

gyms
23-04-18, 21:01
I'm making up absolutely nothing.

That political party didn't exist? They didn't preach those things? They didn't get power because of it? The Arrow Cross was made up by leftists?

Can't you be honest and admit what is patently obvious?


Why don't you go back and read contemporaneous, primary sources. That's what I had to do when I wrote my papers about modern European history.

It didn't make me very proud of Italian history in the 20s and 30s, but it is what it is and has to be accepted.

Just admit that this is just a continuation of attitudes that are centuries old in Eastern Europe.

"The Arrow Cross was made up by leftists?"

No.But there were many communists who became Arrow Cross members and communists again after 1945.

If you want to write about Eastern Europe , study other than communist literature.It's fake history writing.

bicicleur
23-04-18, 21:32
It's in his rhetoric, Bicicleur.
As to the latter, yes, there was. I remember reading about anti-Eastern European sentiment. However, being British, they didn't burn people alive in hostels as happened in Germany to some Turkish migrants.
There has also been anti-migrant violence in Italy in some cases. I'm by no means trying to "whitewash" Italy. However, you can't compare the number of migrants in Italy to the number in Eastern Europe.
As Ygorcs has pointed out, they're hyper-ventilating over a problem that doesn't exist in their countries.
yes scapegoating is always in the rhetoric,
but I don't find the Orban scapegoat other than building a fence
which was more common sense than 'wir schaffen dass'

and there were a few fires in some refugee camps in several European countries during the refugee crisis
and there were injuries and rapes and a few deaths
more than 90 % commited by refugees themselves

don't exaggerate and don't generalise

there are a lot of criminals amongst these refugees
and several commited murder and rape
in Germany, and in northwest Europe there was more violence from refugees to natives than the other way around

gyms
23-04-18, 21:45
Of course it isn't, but we're dealing with real world issues and therefore it doesn't matter what it SHOULD be or not be, but what in fact happens.

Of course (again), there must be some pragmatic controls. Another thing is political sensationalism and ideological hysteria.

The refugee quotas were for Eastern European countries were mostly tiny, of the kind that wouldn't make even a dent in the alarmist "population replacement" that is actually not happening.

This should not be about "what it SHOULD be or not be".There are laws,regulations,agreements and conventions which are mandatory.We live in the rule of law.At least theoretically.

I am not talking about the first quota ,I am talking about the continuous "refugee" quota without upper limit which the EU wants to introduce. According to international statistics, there are sixty million refugees who can come to Europe in the next few years.Population replacement can go fast or slowly but surely.

bicicleur
23-04-18, 21:47
This is true. It's also true that Hungarians and others have seen the impact and failure to assimilate too many migrants in some Euro countries. It also angers them to be told by EU leadership that they must accept them. The entire concept of being forced to accept them is perplexing. Why are the EU leaders so adamant about having no choice but to import another 150 million in the next 10 years? As if they hold no power over the decision?

Just as the far right has members that make ridiculous claims, the far left has them too. The idea that most of the migrants are some sort of engineer or doctor is ridiculous. The tax revenue generated from employed migrants in Germany wasn't even enough to pay for the administration to distribute welfare to migrants, much less the actual value of benefits.

The far left also works to conceal hard facts and data because it makes people uncomfortable and in their words might bolster the arguments of the far right. If simple facts are so damaging to an ideology then perhaps it is flawed.

This thread has beat to death the idea of the rise of the far right and immigration. I think it has been established that the two are intertwined. If the left wants to stop the rise of the right then they should work to stop the rapid levels of immigration. It's that simple.

America is a diverse place but not without great conflict. Large amounts of poor immigrants have always caused huge problems that we've had to overcome as a nation. It seems guaranteed among humans that this will happen.

So, if you are fighting against the far right in the battle of ideas, you are fighting human nature which will always be difficult.

I have not yet read a coherent and rational reason for the Euro immigration as it stands as opposed to sending aid or otherwise helping the needy in their own countries.

that is true,
the naivity with which the EU leaders handled the refugee crisis would be unthinkable in the US, before Trump

and yet stopping uncontrolled immigration was a point in Trumps campaign working for his benefit

gyms
23-04-18, 21:57
150 million in the next 10 years? Do you have some source for that claim? I mean, even during the appex of the refugee crisis the estimated number of refugees/pseudo-refugee economic immigrants was around 1 to 1.5 million immigrants. Even if that pace of immigration remained (which it didn't after 2016) that would make 10-15 million people in 10 years, and I'm sure there wouldn't be more than 10-15 million purely economic migrants coming from other places and via other routes. I don't dispute your claims and preoccupations with the ineffective and unpragmatic policies of immigration of the EU and most West European countries, and you're right in that the left must tackle this issue in some way or another (but not simply support the status quo while it is clearly not working out well)... but I think there is also some exaggeration that forces us to bring people back to the reality, even if to criticize it and find solutions.

You will have to accept that we do not want any migrants. We do not need them.They are needed there at home.Or Brazil.

INSIDE A "NO GO ZONE" IN MALMO, SWEDEN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pochreLwrQs

Ygorcs
23-04-18, 22:21
This should not be about "what it SHOULD be or not be".There are laws,regulations,agreements and conventions which are mandatory.We live in the rule of law.At least theoretically.

I am not talking about the first quota ,I am talking about the continuous "refugee" quota without upper limit which the EU wants to introduce. According to international statistics, there are sixty million refugees who can come to Europe in the next few years.Population replacement can go fast or slowly but surely.

You obviously didn't understand my point: I say that it doesn't matter whether refugees "should not" desire this or that, the fact is that we have seen with our own eyes that in practice they prefer to head to and stay in some countries instead of others. That, what the real numbers and dynamics demonstrate, is what matters to define what countries are really targets of mass immigration and what nations should really be most worried about it.

As for this second proposal you're now referring to, of course it is outrageous and totally unrealistic. As I said, all sides are being either hysterical or completely out of touch with reality, so the problem is probably going to increase more and more in one way or another, because there are few people really looking for a reasonable, feasible, strong yet humane solution.

gyms
23-04-18, 22:31
GETTING "ESCORTED" OUT OF THE "NO GO ZONE"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODw7o34Vdbk

SWEDEN HAS REAL PROBLEMS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0p7Oyvql9s

gyms
23-04-18, 22:35
Me too, and I have it in here Canada together with races and religions from around the globe. I have no idea why is it so existentially importance for you to keep Sweden white and christian then?!!!

Possible Terrorist Attack in Toronto – 5 Dead, More Casualties Reported

https://www.theepochtimes.com/possible-terrorist-attack-in-toronto-5-dead-more-casualties-reported_2502169.html

Around 10 people were injured when a van struck a crowd of people in Toronto on Monday afternoon, April 23, according to reports. A suspect was arrested.
The Toronto Police said that between 8 and 10 people were struck around Yonge Street south of Finch Avenue when a white van went down the sidewalk. The driver was later arrested, CTV reported.
Several media outlets have reported (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6125470/toronto-pedestrian-crash-truck-injuries-pavement-mounted-latest/) that five people were killed in the attack.

firetown
23-04-18, 23:14
Now 9 dead.

Ygorcs
24-04-18, 03:16
Anders Breivik and - talking of Canada, here's another good example - the "mosque shooter" Alexandre Bissonnette, who of course were just "deranged, lunatic white men", must agree that, yes, these Muslim terrorists need to get out of their peaceful countries.

Aaron1981
26-04-18, 21:10
maybe, but he is labeled a fascist because he was the one with the most common sense during the refugee crisis

he isn't
I don't see the kind of rhetoric Erdogan is using

if the EU leaders did their job properly, they wouldn't have to deal with this kind of popular leaders
look at Brexit

The British will not be controlled, you don't know their psyche. It's unfortunate that there is no good leadership there. If a buffoon wasn't running my country, the former colonies should strengthen ties to the 'motherland' so to speak as the EU has really become a left winged oligarchy.

Aaron1981
26-04-18, 21:12
Possible Terrorist Attack in Toronto – 5 Dead, More Casualties Reported

https://www.theepochtimes.com/possible-terrorist-attack-in-toronto-5-dead-more-casualties-reported_2502169.html

Around 10 people were injured when a van struck a crowd of people in Toronto on Monday afternoon, April 23, according to reports. A suspect was arrested.
The Toronto Police said that between 8 and 10 people were struck around Yonge Street south of Finch Avenue when a white van went down the sidewalk. The driver was later arrested, CTV reported.
Several media outlets have reported (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6125470/toronto-pedestrian-crash-truck-injuries-pavement-mounted-latest/) that five people were killed in the attack.

Not a terrorist attack, at least not driven by religious extremism, I can tell you that. Just a psychopath modeling a massacre off that Rodgers guy a few years ago. I can say he really didn't accomplish much, killing grandmas, middle aged men and women, and a handful of foreign students. Unfortunately if he is a genuine psychopath, which I think he is, he will never feel remorse or live with these scars, and will just be wasting tax dollars in a cell.

Tomenable
06-05-18, 16:01
Europe has a long history of fascism

Nice story about a bear who saw fascists and Nazis everywhere (in English):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp8e2mPsAn8

gyms
10-05-18, 14:51
I hold no brief for Donald Trump.

I think he's a buffoon, and he's erratic and temperamentally unsuited for the job, imo. That's why I didn't vote for him. He's not, however, although it may appear so to Europeans, a right wing nationalist of the type taking power in eastern Europe. He's not a fascist, whatever the hysterical voices on the left here might say. Europe has a long history of fascism, and in eastern Europe, in particular, monarchies were succeeded by fascist governments, and then by Communist totalitarianism with only a few decades here and there of democracy. They also have a long history of genocidal anti-semitism which could easily turn into murderous anti-Middle Easterner. What could easily happen there could never happen here.

I know Europeans and I know Americans equally well and the differences are profound.

I'm very worried about how things will go.

J'adore your leftist agenda!

"Anti-Semitism did not begin with Adolf Hitler: Anti-Semitic attitudes date back to ancient times."

Is this Eastern Europe?

"Some Jews became prominent in banking and moneylending, because early Christianity didn’t permit moneylending for interest. This resulted in economic resentment which forced the expulsion of Jews from several European countries including France, Germany, Portugal and Spain during the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries."

https://www.history.com/topics/anti-semitism

"Cicero uses an important phrase to describe the Jewish religion: barbara superstitio."
https://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/2017/05/the-ancient-roman-writers-who-laid-the-foundations-of-anti-semitism/

"It would be writers, and the Roman state, who fused anti-Jewish sentiments into a unified political doctrine. That very doctrine has undergirded the long-lasting entanglement of ethnic and religious hatred that is central to modern-day anti-Jewish prejudice."
https://www.publicmedievalist.com/anti-semitism-older-think/

The Italian Racial Laws
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Racial_Laws

Angela
10-05-18, 17:19
J'adore your leftist agenda!

"Anti-Semitism did not begin with Adolf Hitler: Anti-Semitic attitudes date back to ancient times."

Is this Eastern Europe?

"Some Jews became prominent in banking and moneylending, because early Christianity didn’t permit moneylending for interest. This resulted in economic resentment which forced the expulsion of Jews from several European countries including France, Germany, Portugal and Spain during the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries."

https://www.history.com/topics/anti-semitism

"Cicero uses an important phrase to describe the Jewish religion: barbara superstitio."
https://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/2017/05/the-ancient-roman-writers-who-laid-the-foundations-of-anti-semitism/

"It would be writers, and the Roman state, who fused anti-Jewish sentiments into a unified political doctrine. That very doctrine has undergirded the long-lasting entanglement of ethnic and religious hatred that is central to modern-day anti-Jewish prejudice."
https://www.publicmedievalist.com/anti-semitism-older-think/

The Italian Racial Laws
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Racial_Laws

Continue with your provocative, anti-semitic fueled posts and you'll get an infraction. You've been warned.

For the upteenth time, I'm the antithesis of a leftist. Only in Europe is someone who is against racism and anti-semitism automatically labeled a leftist.

gyms
10-05-18, 19:53
Continue with your provocative, anti-semitic fueled posts and you'll get an infraction. You've been warned.

For the upteenth time, I'm the antithesis of a leftist. Only in Europe is someone who is against racism and anti-semitism automatically labeled a leftist.



I kindly ask you to show me the anti-semitic in my posts.
However, the article you linked is
pure propaganda of the Hungarian liberal bolshevik opposition specially written and traslated into different languges for Western newspapers.

About Mr.Vona

cited in the highly credible and objective The NewYork Times: well, Mr Vona is a real radical nationalist,more precisely...a nazi.


I do not recommend his words as holy argument.

Angela
10-05-18, 21:02
J'adore your leftist agenda!

"Anti-Semitism did not begin with Adolf Hitler: Anti-Semitic attitudes date back to ancient times."

Is this Eastern Europe?

"Some Jews became prominent in banking and moneylending, because early Christianity didn’t permit moneylending for interest. This resulted in economic resentment which forced the expulsion of Jews from several European countries including France, Germany, Portugal and Spain during the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries."

https://www.history.com/topics/anti-semitism

"Cicero uses an important phrase to describe the Jewish religion: barbara superstitio."
https://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/2017/05/the-ancient-roman-writers-who-laid-the-foundations-of-anti-semitism/

"It would be writers, and the Roman state, who fused anti-Jewish sentiments into a unified political doctrine. That very doctrine has undergirded the long-lasting entanglement of ethnic and religious hatred that is central to modern-day anti-Jewish prejudice."
https://www.publicmedievalist.com/anti-semitism-older-think/

The Italian Racial Laws
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Racial_Laws

Your knowledge of anti-semitism, European history, and obviously Italian history, is clearly flawed, or you deliberately intend to be provocative and disruptive.

In general, anti-semitism has been a feature of European history and politics beginning largely after the institution of Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire.

It has, however, been at its most virulent and violent in Germany and Eastern Europe, starting with the Crusades and ending with the Holocaust.

In today's world, the only part of Europe where it is totally open, widespread, and virulent is Eastern Europe. Sorry if that bothers you, but facts are facts.

Now stop trying to provoke me by posting about the Italian Racial Laws, which I already brought up myself, and which were promulgated in response to pressure from Nazi Germany. There was nothing anti-semitic about fascism as conceived by Mussolini. You guys owned that. Accept it.

gyms
10-05-18, 21:03
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A-BfS6Z5bc

Viktor Orban: “We’re Building a Christian Democracy”!!!

gyms
10-05-18, 21:40
Angela 1.:

"Now stop trying to provoke me by posting about the Italian Racial Laws..."

Angela 2.:"Well, in their case, their last really "autochthonous" government was a fascist one, so there you go."

-Now stop trying to provoke others by humiliate the Hungarian people!

Or are there only certain people entitled to provoke?Nice.

Jovialis
10-05-18, 21:44
@gyms

You've received an infraction for non-respect for moderator's warning, for continuing your provocative behavior.

Also, don't misrepresent what other's say by deleting the latter part:

"Now stop trying to provoke me by posting about the Italian Racial Laws, which I already brought up myself, and which were promulgated in response to pressure from Nazi Germany. There was nothing anti-semitic about fascism as conceived by Mussolini. You guys owned that. Accept it."

I1a3_Young
10-05-18, 22:57
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/us/politics/white-house-lgbt-rights-military-civil-rights-act.html

http://time.com/5104657/donald-trump-lgbt-rights/

The Transgender military scenario was only 1 year old when rescinded, with good reason. The GLAAD article is somewhat hilariously biased though.

Trump was the first president to appoint an openly gay ambassador (to Germany, sworn in by Pence (haha)).

Trump has always been one to hire the best person for the job, period.

gyms
11-05-18, 09:23
Angela:"In today's world, the only part of Europe where it is totally open, widespread, and virulent is Eastern Europe. Sorry if that bothers you, but facts are facts."

Wich facts are you referring to?
The real virulent part of Europe is actually Western Europe.Look at Sweden,Belgien,France,Germany,Holland,Englnd,Greec e,Italy and so one.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/topic/muslim-anti-semitism-in-europe/

In Hungary – by different estimations – there are more than 120 thousand Jew lives, most of them in Budapest. There are around forty synagogues working under the supervision of the Federation, twenty in the capital with at least weekly religious services. In the countryside there is a renaissance of the active Jewish cultural and religious life.

http://www.mazsihisz.hu/about-mazsihisz-37.html

Ailchu
13-05-18, 17:24
i recently listened to a conversation between 2 guys in the train. i don't know where exactly they came from they spoke this kind of german with this strange pronounciation, "jugodütsch", very common among immigrants. even many people without migration background are talking like this nowadays. one probably came from iran and the other one probably from tunesia based on some things he said. the tunesian told the other one a story in which he started to talk with a group of maroccans. they said hello in arabic and he replied in arabic too. when they realized he spoke arabic and carried a cross around his neck they became aggressive and asked him wtf was wrong with him. an older maroccan then had to intervene. or that he was at a meeting with maroccans in france and how ****** france is because there are so many north africans there.
the other then said that france did massive bs in marocco and kinda deserves it. the tuneisian then said that the arabs did the same to which the other one replied that the arabs and also the ottomans where not into slavery and did not enslave the people they conquered and that they just conquered the region and left the inhabitants alone. the other one agreed.

you know your immigration policy is bs when even the foreigners laugh about it.

Angela
13-05-18, 18:20
Impact of Hungarian nationalism on science:

See
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6389/584?utm_campaign=toc_sci-mag_2018-05-10&et_rid=34987048&et_cid=2025662

gyms
13-05-18, 19:11
Impact of Hungarian nationalism on science:

See
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6389/584?utm_campaign=toc_sci-mag_2018-05-10&et_rid=34987048&et_cid=2025662

Oh,yeah?
Kata Karáth is a genuine left-wing liberal activist.
Both "Central European University" and "Közép-európai Egyetem" are owned by Soros.

http://www.kormany.hu/en/ministry-of-human-resources/news/the-hac-did-not-accredit-the-offshore-soros-university-that-issues-american-degrees

The HAC accredited the Central European University, which issues Hungarian diplomas and operates according to Hungarian regulations at the request of the institution itself, in view of the fact that the university’s five-year accreditation expired on 31 December 2017.
With relation to the CEU, which operates according to U.S. law and issues American diplomas under the auspices of American accreditation, and which accordingly may be regarded as an offshore university, the investigation is still ongoing with relation to whether it performs any education activities at all in its own country of origin. The law is applicable to all universities, including the Soros University.

Viktor Orbán’s bigoted vision leaves me ashamed to be Hungarian Kata Karáth (https://www.theguardian.com/profile/kata-kar-th)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/07/hungary-young-national-pride-viktor-orban-europe


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0pY0NHgC2E

gyms
13-05-18, 21:28
Melanie Phillips: How the media manipulates truth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te01MtCJP0w

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/02/half-scot-half-iraqi-malmo-immigration-europe

gyms
15-05-18, 10:59
Impact of Hungarian nationalism on science:

See
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6389/584?utm_campaign=toc_sci-mag_2018-05-10&et_rid=34987048&et_cid=2025662

The situation of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences during the Socialist Party's (MSZP) government:
https://www.nature.com/articles/442353b

http://www.nature.com/articles/4411034b

Gyurcsány Ferenc was Prime Minister of Hungary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_Hungary#Republic_of_Hun gary_(1989–Present)) from 2004 to 2009.


Socialist democracy:

Gyurcsány admits lying to win elections in Hungary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZGbz00n8-Q

Postmodern objectivity:
"No one was shot, no one was tortured"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rCYeSPZEuY

gyms
01-06-18, 13:15
Hungary under Viktor Orban

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_b0yYJWsKk

Some comments:



So, lets make it clear: the UK is the bastion of libetalism by literally imprisoning everyone who mentions the staged trial of Tommy Robbinson, that happened several days ago, and Hungary is opressing the media, because a guy had money to buy a newspaper belonging to the opposition, and then he dared to fire people from his own company.Does anyone see a problem here? Something like double standards, something about free markets, a difference between a republic and a kingdom maybe? Just askin'...





This jokeparty "Dialogue for Hungary" got 3/199 seats in the hungarian Parlament. Why are these people always portrayed as representatives of the hungarian public? I guess its hard to find some left-wing party or newspaper in country that voted 70% far-right.



Hungary is not "under Viktor Orban". It is under the will of the people.

Jovialis
01-06-18, 14:42
@gyms

You've received an infraction for linking a site with an obviously racist name.

Angela
01-06-18, 18:45
@gyms

You've received an infraction for linking a site with an obviously racist name.

Excellent call.

dominique_nuit
27-09-18, 08:27
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/09/yoram-hazony-virtue-of-nationalism-review.html

Legiter
27-09-18, 14:41
If I may speak: Angela you are quite wrong. The definition of Semite is as follows: "a member of any of the peoples who speak or spoke a Semitic language, including in particular the Jews and Arabs." According to Google, which is where I obtained this definition, this is what Antisemitism means: "hostility to or prejudice against Jews." If this is the case, then either Google is wrong, and Antisemitism must also apply to other Semites, including Persians and Arabs, or Google is correct and Arabs and Persians are not Semitic people (this also includes other Semitic people throughout Western Asia and Africa). We obviously know that this is not the case. Also, Christianity is not inherently 'Antisemitic'. In fact, I find it awfully ignorant of you to label Christianity as Antisemitic, even though the religion was started by people of the Levant (Judahites, Israelites, etc.), and the fact that the Apostles of Christ, with a few exceptions, were predominately of Semitic origin. According to the true definition of the word. Also consider, that it was Christian leaders, who saved condemned Antisemitism (Pope Pius XI condemned the Nazis), and Pope Pius XII saved Jews who were being persecuted by the Nazis. As a right wing, authoritarian and Catholic Monarchist, I would say that only rebuke the Jews for their satanic religion, but not for their race. No where in the history of Medieval Europe, did any person ever advocate hatred for Semitic people, because of their race. Sure, they recognized racial differences, and developed certain systems to preserve their people, but the Church has ALWAYS condemned hatred of any race.

Legiter
27-09-18, 14:43
Made a typo. Take out 'saved' before condemned. Lol

Jovialis
27-09-18, 15:49
As a right wing, authoritarian and Catholic Monarchist, I would say that only rebuke the Jews for their satanic religion, but not for their race..

You have received an infraction for hate speech.

Legiter
28-09-18, 00:15
That is the most ridiculous accusation I have ever seen. For merely stating that a religion, not a group of people, but a religion is evil? Lol

capita
30-09-20, 13:03
I recently found a 2019 research article on this topic at NYT.com. It seems to me that nationalism never left Europe. Although, to be honest, there are many positive features in nationalism. At a minimum, genus identification and genetic code are preserved

capita
30-09-20, 13:06
Sixty years ago, the world's first swimsuit made its introduction at a poolside design show in Paris. The bathing suit is presently so omnipresent—and similarly so shy—that it's difficult to fathom how stunning individuals once discovered it. At the point when the two-piece initially showed up, its noteworthy cut scandalized even the French style models who should wear it; they won't, and the first fashioner needed to enroll a stripper. The pictures beneath represent how the swimsuit gradually picked up acknowledgment—first on the Riviera, at that point in the United States—and turned into a beachfront staple.


At the point when the swimsuit was uncovered in 1946, it was in no way, shape or form the first occasion when that ladies had worn so uncovering a piece of clothing out in the open. In the fourth century, for instance, Roman gymnasts wore bandeau tops, swimsuit bottoms, and even anklets that would take a gander at home on the sea shores of Southern California today.