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Maciamo
21-04-18, 08:30
The distribution and origins of E-V13 are one of the most perplexing of any haplogroups. Over the years people have hypothesised that it originated with ancient Greeks, Neolithic farmers, Balkans people, Steppe people, Romans, Celts, Indo-Europeans in general or whatever imaginable scenario.

What we know almost for sure at present is that E-V13 is too young to have spread around Europe during the Neolithic. Yfull.com estimates that it formed 7700 years ago, but that all present day carriers descend from a man who lived only 4900 years ago, during the Early Bronze Age. Additionally, 99% of E-V13 individuals are also positive for the CTS5856 (aka CTS1273 or CTS7237), whose last common ancestor goes back only 4200 years ago, when R1b tribes had already reached the British Isles.

Most of us got mislead by the presumed finding of an E-V13 sample in Early Neolithic Catalonia. But it turned out that that sample was not tested for SNPs and was only predicted to be E-V13 based on STR samples. It probably belonged to its parent clade, the much older E-L618 (12,300 years old according to Yfull.com).

Nowadays E-V13 is found throughout Europe, except among the Basques, central Sardinians (those without Roman ancestry, as Romans stuck to the coastal areas), the Bretons and Highland Scots, Icelanders, the Balts , the Finns (except some southern Finns with Swedish or Russian ancestry) and the Saami. In other words, populations mostly descended from Mesolithic and Neolithic Europeans lack it, as do insular Celts (Bretons originated in Roman Britain) with little continental ancestry.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


When seeing the map, many people focus on the high frequency of E-V13 in the southern Balkans. But that is another misleading element. The E-V13 around Kosovo and Albania has a very recent expansion time, dating to the Middle Ages. In Roman times, the frequency would probably have been more uniform across the Balkans.

I have explained in my history of E-V13 (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#V13_origins) that this lineage became assimilated by the Indo-European Steppe invaders around the time of the Corded Ware expansion (R1a) and the expansion of R1b tribes to the Balkans and Danubian basin. From there, it would have spread back to Central Asia, Iran, the Caucasus and Mesopotamia with the Indo-Iranian expansion. I argued that the Mycenaeans, a Steppe people related to the Indo-Iranians, would have brought E-V13 to Greece around 1650 BCE.

The oldest clades of E-V13 are most common around Germany, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland. I believe that E-V13 could have been a lineage of the Cucuteni-Trypillian people, which was assimilated by Yamna people just before their expansion westward. This would also have been the case of some G2a lineages (Z1816, L13 and L1264 subclades). Some of these lineages (both G2a and E-V13) remained in the Steppe and were taken east by the Proto-Indo-Iranians and to Greece by the Proto-Mycenaeans. Thousands of years of Steppe migrations (https://www.eupedia.com/history/5000_years_of_steppe_migrations_into_europe.shtml) would have brought more E-V13 from the Steppe to the Balkans.

E-V13 would have arrived in Central Europe by 2800 BCE. I believe that the absence of E-V13 among the Bretons and Highland Scots is due to the fact that early R1b tribes that propagated west during the Bell Beaker period were almost purely R1b, and those who colonised the British Isles appear to have been mostly R1b-L21. The ancient Beaker samples from Britain confirm that. So, originally the Irish and ancient Bretons would not have carried any E-V13. E-V13 would have come later to Britain and Ireland, with the Hallstatt and La Tène Celts, the Romans and the Anglo-Saxons.

Likewise, it is highly doubtful that there was any E-V13 in the Iberian and Italian peninsulas until the Late Bronze Age, as R1b tribes in the Beaker period had no E-V13, and later waves only came from 1500 BCE in Iberia and 1300 BCE in Italy.

E-V13 would have spread to Scandinavia with the Corded Ware culture and thus have been found among all Germanic people later on, if at relatively low frequency.

When R1b tribes settled in Central Europe, they progressively mixed with the Corded Ware people (R1a, G2a, E-V13) during the Unetice period. By the time of the Tumulus culture (1600 to 1200 BCE), J2b2-Z628 would have arrived from the Steppe to Central Europe (presence confirmed in Croatia c. 1700-1500 BCE) and would have joined the mix. R1b-U152 became the dominant lineage around the Alps in what would become the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures (1300-500 BCE). I have long asserted that those Urnfield/Hallstatt, who also gave rise to the Italic tribes, belonged chiefly to R1b-U152 with substantial minorities of G2a (Z1816, L13 and L1264 subclades), J2a1-L70 and J2b2-L283 (Z628 clade).

In my Genetic history of the Benelux & France (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/benelux_france_dna_project.shtml), I also posited that the Hallstatt people would have also carried minorities of E-V13, I2a2b-L38 and I2c1, as well as possibly some Corded Ware R1a-M458 and locally assimilated Neolithic T1a. I now think that E-V13 may have been much more important, perhaps even the second main Hallstatt Celtic and Italic lineage after R1b-U152 and before G2a-Z1816.

A relatively high proportion of E-V13 among Hallstatt Celts and Italics would explain how E-V13 reached the frequencies observed today in Italy (about the same as in south Germany), at least in the northern half, as the southern E-V13 is presumably more of Greek origin (with nevertheless some Italic E-V13 lineages).

It especially explains the high percentage of E-V13 in western Iberia and along the Mediterranean coast of Spain. The Hallstatt Celts colonised especially the western half of Iberia. Then the Romans later established a lot of colonies along the Mediterranean coast of Spain and all over Andalusia. When we look at the map, that corresponds to these two combined regions. Lower frequencies of E-V13 are observed in other parts of Spain with a smaller number of colonies, and neither the Hallstatt Celts nor the Romans settled in or around the Basque country, where there is indeed no E-V13.

One surprising thing when seeing the map is the lower amount of E-V13 in France, as the French have Alpine Celtic, Roman and Germanic heritage, all people who possessed E-V13 lineages. Actually I am not sure about the frequency of E-V13 in France due to the little data available for E1b1b subclades, or in general the low availability of Y-DNA data from France. But the E1b1b map clearly shows an east to west gradient, which is expected if E-V13 spread from Central Europe westward.

IronSide
21-04-18, 09:14
How can we know how Roman colonization affected the distribution of haplogroups in Europe ? I hypothesize that most Balkanic, North African, and Near Eastern lineages in Europe concentrate in areas where Roman colonies once existed.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Romancoloniae.jpg/500px-Romancoloniae.jpg

Maleth
21-04-18, 09:54
How can we know how Roman colonization affected the distribution of haplogroups in Europe ? I hypothesize that most Balkanic, North African, and Near Eastern lineages in Europe concentrate in areas where Roman colonies once existed.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Romancoloniae.jpg/500px-Romancoloniae.jpg

Hello Ironside, Can you please expand a little more your post as its rather generic in its content, in relevance to the title of this thread. Thank you

Johane Derite
21-04-18, 11:19
When seeing the map, many people focus on the high frequency of E-V13 in the southern Balkans. But that is another misleading element. The E-V13 around Kosovo and Albania has a very recent expansion time, dating to the Middle Ages. In Roman times, the frequency would probably have been more uniform across the Balkans.



Hi Maciamo, nice post in general. What convinced you of this particularly? Specifically the middle ages part

Maciamo
21-04-18, 12:57
Hi Maciamo, nice post in general. What convinced you of this particularly? Specifically the middle ages part

I should have said since the Middle Ages. Here are a few examples of subclades found in the region:

- Z38456 (Albania, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia) => TMRCA 1650 years (but its subclade BY4459>Y92017 is specific to Albania and more recent)
- PH2180 (Albania, Kosovo) => TMRCA 1650 years
- BY5423 (Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia) => TMRCA 900 years

Gabriele Pashaj
21-04-18, 14:46
Happy to see that someone tslks about this ydna... so Maciamo do you think that E-V13 is not of Balkanic origin but has come with IE invasions?! Do you beliebe that Dorians have brought it in The Balkans?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Expredel
21-04-18, 15:26
Nowadays E-V13 is found throughout Europe, except among the Basques, central Sardinians (those without Roman ancestry, as Romans stuck to the coastal areas), the Bretons and Highland Scots, Icelanders, the Balts , the Finns (except some southern Finns with Swedish or Russian ancestry) and the Saami. In other words, populations mostly descended from Mesolithic and Neolithic Europeans lack it, as do insular Celts (Bretons originated in Roman Britain) with little continental ancestry.
You should take a closer look at yfull.com.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/e-v13/

There's a lot of V13 in Saudi Arabia so it's a possibility that V13 are descendants of hundreds, possibly even thousands of Roman slaves that were brought in from Syria.

V13 does seem to trace back 5000 years, but so would R1b among US citizens, because R1b arrived in the US by the thousands, so there is no founder effect.

We'll need ancient DNA to figure this one out, but yfull.com shows an Irishman and Saudi who share a common ancestor 3000 years ago. Not exactly a smoking gun given the scarcity of samples, but it's something to keep an eye on.

IronSide
21-04-18, 15:30
You should take a closer look at yfull.com.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/e-v13/

There's a lot of V13 in Saudi Arabia so it's a possibility that V13 are descendants of hundreds, possibly even thousands of Roman slaves that were brought in from Syria.

V13 does seem to trace back 5000 years, but so would R1b among US citizens, because R1b arrived in the US by the thousands, so there is no founder effect.

We'll need ancient DNA to figure this one out, but yfull.com shows an Irishman and Saudi who share a common ancestor 3000 years ago. Not exactly a smoking gun given the scarcity of samples, but it's something to keep an eye on.

No there isn't, unless by a lot you mean one person from a thousand, then maybe.

IronSide
21-04-18, 15:38
Hello Ironside, Can you please expand a little more your post as its rather generic in its content, in relevance to the title of this thread. Thank you

Roman veterans were granted land after they completed their service in the military, Roman legions were composed of Roman citizens typically from the Italian peninsula, but auxilaries which contributed most of the cavalry and archers were from the non-citizen inhabitants of the vast Roman Empire, after a period of 25 years they were granted citizinship and maybe some were granted lands in the colonies.

I'm not sure of the last part though, was colonization only from Italy or did the other provinces take part in the process as well ?

Angela
21-04-18, 15:38
How can we know how Roman colonization affected the distribution of haplogroups in Europe ? I hypothesize that most Balkanic, North African, and Near Eastern lineages in Europe concentrate in areas where Roman colonies once existed.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Romancoloniae.jpg/500px-Romancoloniae.jpg

"Near Eastern" mtDna and yDna have been in Europe since the Neolithic, with more arriving in the Bronze Age, and that includes places like France and Central Europe, and also places the Romans never set foot, like Poland.

You'd have to have very detailed sub-clade information to make deductions as to time period of arrival.
.

LAB
21-04-18, 15:42
You should take a closer look at yfull.com.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/e-v13/

There's a lot of V13 in Saudi Arabia so it's a possibility that V13 are descendants of hundreds, possibly even thousands of Roman slaves that were brought in from Syria.

V13 does seem to trace back 5000 years, but so would R1b among US citizens, because R1b arrived in the US by the thousands, so there is no founder effect.

We'll need ancient DNA to figure this one out, but yfull.com shows an Irishman and Saudi who share a common ancestor 3000 years ago. Not exactly a smoking gun given the scarcity of samples, but it's something to keep an eye on.


Rome is in Italy, if Romans had brought slaves from Syria then the epicentre of E-V13 would be modern Italy not on the high mountains of Albania.
You can see how slavery works by looking around you, African-Americans are descendants of slaves brought from Africa in the USA.
The same would have occurred if Romans had brought slaves from Syria. They would live today in Italy not in an undeveloped region of a different country.
Do you have any references about what you said? Because it sounds ridiculous.

Johane Derite
21-04-18, 16:08
I should have said since the Middle Ages. Here are a few examples of subclades found in the region:

- Z38456 (Albania, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia) => TMRCA 1650 years (but its subclade BY4459>Y92017 is specific to Albania and more recent)
- PH2180 (Albania, Kosovo) => TMRCA 1650 years
- BY5423 (Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia) => TMRCA 900 years


What about these:

https://i.imgur.com/wWBmnRI.jpg



If @Trojet is around maybe he can help since he knows this the best

Promenade
21-04-18, 17:56
How does the age of the clades in Kurdistan and what appears to be Tartarstan compare to those in Central Europe?

Expredel
21-04-18, 18:24
Rome is in Italy, if Romans had brought slaves from Syria then the epicentre of E-V13 would be modern Italy not on the high mountains of Albania.
You can see how slavery works by looking around you, African-Americans are descendants of slaves brought from Africa in the USA.
The same would have occurred if Romans had brought slaves from Syria. They would live today in Italy not in an undeveloped region of a different country.
Do you have any references about what you said? Because it sounds ridiculous.
If we follow your line of reasoning, the English colonial empire would have imported slaves into England, and not in an undeveloped region of a different continent. Even then there were mass expulsion events of slaves, the most well-known being the Jewish exodus out of Egypt.

The bottom line is that there is a significantly stronger connection between V13 and the Middle East than between I2a and the Middle East. So whichever way V13 arrived, it highly likely arrived later, and in bulk.


No there isn't, unless by a lot you mean one person from a thousand, then maybe.
It's at about 1%, but consistently throughout the region. Just look at the link I provided. 2 in Saudi, 6 in Qatar, 1 in Jordan, 2 in Lebanon, 2 in UAE. That's too much to ignore. TMCRA between 3000 and 4200 years ago.

LAB
21-04-18, 19:16
If we follow your line of reasoning, the English colonial empire would have imported slaves into England, and not in an undeveloped region of a different continent. Even then there were mass expulsion events of slaves, the most well-known being the Jewish exodus out of Egypt.

The bottom line is that there is a significantly stronger connection between V13 and the Middle East than between I2a and the Middle East. So whichever way V13 arrived, it highly likely arrived later, and in bulk.


It's at about 1%, but consistently throughout the region. Just look at the link I provided. 2 in Saudi, 6 in Qatar, 1 in Jordan, 2 in Lebanon, 2 in UAE. That's too much to ignore. TMCRA between 3000 and 4200 years ago.


My line of reasoning says that Afrikan-Americans were brought in the US as slaves and today their descendants live there.
Are you saying that they didn't came there as Slaves? How do you explain their presence then?

They were brought there and DEVELOPED the region and furthermore the US. right?

Rome is located here 41.9028° N, 12.4964° E

Prizren (f.e) is located here 42°12′50″ N 20°44′22″ E

According to google maps the distance is 907km ( 563 miles ) and it takes 157 ( 6 1/2 days ) hours by non-stop walking + ferry to cross the Adriatik sea, in antiquity the time was definitely longer as a result of the lack of internal-combustion engines,GPS,etc, so let's presume you needed 10 days by non-stop walking or horse-riding.


https://preview.ibb.co/j8uXOc/rome.png (https://ibb.co/erY3UH)


How exactly did these slaves located in such a distance served Rome ?
And what exactly did they developed in the high-mountains of Albania and Kosovo that could be useful to Romans?
I'm just trying to understand your way of thinking, it seems you're quite off the track.

IronSide
21-04-18, 19:37
It's at about 1%, but consistently throughout the region. Just look at the link I provided. 2 in Saudi, 6 in Qatar, 1 in Jordan, 2 in Lebanon, 2 in UAE. That's too much to ignore. TMCRA between 3000 and 4200 years ago.

Honey, your argument was because a couple of guys from the Arab Gulf are V13, then the thousands of V13 in Europe are slaves from Syria, seriously?

No need to invoke slavery here, but its more likely that they were European slaves brought to Arabia, but I don't believe that because humans can move without them being enslaved.

the few V13 in Arabia are concentrated in the East coast, a region historically tied to Iran and Mesopotamia, and we know some V13 is present there, I don't know how, but it's interesting.

Maciamo
21-04-18, 20:46
Happy to see that someone tslks about this ydna... so Maciamo do you think that E-V13 is not of Balkanic origin but has come with IE invasions?! Do you beliebe that Dorians have brought it in The Balkans?


I didn't say that E-V13 wasn't Balkanic in origins. The mutation may have first arisen in the Balkans then spread to the Carpathians and Ukraine (Cucuteni-Trypillia), then the lineage would have been absorbed by the IE tribes. Indo-European clades of E-V13 were surely present all over the Balkans since the Bronze Age, but the most of the deep clades found around Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro, etc. appear to have expanded only in the last 1650 to 900 years.

Maciamo
21-04-18, 20:58
What about these:

https://i.imgur.com/wWBmnRI.jpg



If @Trojet is around maybe he can help since he knows this the best

Thanks! I did not have that information. I was relying on the data from FTDNA and Yfull, but this is much better. However it is not complete. For example:

- L241 has a TMRCA of 3200 years but that clade is found from Ukraine to England. AFAIK only one of its subclades is Albanian and it is the PH2180 I mentioned above.

- Z38456 is listed above. Its TMRCA is not indicated on your chart, but it is 1650 ybp. BY20093 is not listed on Yfull, but as a side clade of Z38456 it might be a similar age.

- Z16988, FGC11450 and Z16661 are also a very widely distributed and have subclades of their own, so I expect that deeper clades specific to the Balkans will be much younger.

Maciamo
21-04-18, 21:00
How does the age of the clades in Kurdistan and what appears to be Tartarstan compare to those in Central Europe?

Which clades are you referring to? There are so many in Central Europe with ages between 4900 and 500 years.

Maciamo
21-04-18, 21:02
You should take a closer look at yfull.com.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/e-v13/

There's a lot of V13 in Saudi Arabia so it's a possibility that V13 are descendants of hundreds, possibly even thousands of Roman slaves that were brought in from Syria.

V13 does seem to trace back 5000 years, but so would R1b among US citizens, because R1b arrived in the US by the thousands, so there is no founder effect.

We'll need ancient DNA to figure this one out, but yfull.com shows an Irishman and Saudi who share a common ancestor 3000 years ago. Not exactly a smoking gun given the scarcity of samples, but it's something to keep an eye on.


I thought it was clear from my post above that E-V13 in Iran, Iraq and Gulf States was of Indo-Iranian origin. There is a substantial minority of typically Indo-Iranian R1a-Z93, and to a lower extent R1b-Z2103, in countries like the UAE and Qatar. E-V13 came with them.

Sile
21-04-18, 21:04
The distribution and origins of E-V13 are one of the most perplexing of any haplogroups. Over the years people have hypothesised that it originated with ancient Greeks, Neolithic farmers, Balkans people, Steppe people, Romans, Celts, Indo-Europeans in general or whatever imaginable scenario.

What we know almost for sure at present is that E-V13 is too young to have spread around Europe during the Neolithic. Yfull.com estimates that it formed 7700 years ago, but that all present day carriers descend from a man who lived only 4900 years ago, during the Early Bronze Age. Additionally, 99% of E-V13 individuals are also positive for the CTS5856 (aka CTS1273 or CTS7237), whose last common ancestor goes back only 4200 years ago, when R1b tribes had already reached the British Isles.

Most of us got mislead by the presumed finding of an E-V13 sample in Early Neolithic Catalonia. But it turned out that that sample was not tested for SNPs and was only predicted to be E-V13 based on STR samples. It probably belonged to its parent clade, the much older E-L618 (12,300 years old according to Yfull.com).

Nowadays E-V13 is found throughout Europe, except among the Basques, central Sardinians (those without Roman ancestry, as Romans stuck to the coastal areas), the Bretons and Highland Scots, Icelanders, the Balts , the Finns (except some southern Finns with Swedish or Russian ancestry) and the Saami. In other words, populations mostly descended from Mesolithic and Neolithic Europeans lack it, as do insular Celts (Bretons originated in Roman Britain) with little continental ancestry.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


When seeing the map, many people focus on the high frequency of E-V13 in the southern Balkans. But that is another misleading element. The E-V13 around Kosovo and Albania has a very recent expansion time, dating to the Middle Ages. In Roman times, the frequency would probably have been more uniform across the Balkans.

I have explained in my history of E-V13 (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#V13_origins) that this lineage became assimilated by the Indo-European Steppe invaders around the time of the Corded Ware expansion (R1a) and the expansion of R1b tribes to the Balkans and Danubian basin. From there, it would have spread back to Central Asia, Iran, the Caucasus and Mesopotamia with the Indo-Iranian expansion. I argued that the Mycenaeans, a Steppe people related to the Indo-Iranians, would have brought E-V13 to Greece around 1650 BCE.

The oldest clades of E-V13 are most common around Germany, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland. I believe that E-V13 could have been a lineage of the Cucuteni-Trypillian people, which was assimilated by Yamna people just before their expansion westward. This would also have been the case of some G2a lineages (Z1816, L13 and L1264 subclades). Some of these lineages (both G2a and E-V13) remained in the Steppe and were taken east by the Proto-Indo-Iranians and to Greece by the Proto-Mycenaeans. Thousands of years of Steppe migrations (https://www.eupedia.com/history/5000_years_of_steppe_migrations_into_europe.shtml) would have brought more E-V13 from the Steppe to the Balkans.

E-V13 would have arrived in Central Europe by 2800 BCE. I believe that the absence of E-V13 among the Bretons and Highland Scots is due to the fact that early R1b tribes that propagated west during the Bell Beaker period were almost purely R1b, and those who colonised the British Isles appear to have been mostly R1b-L21. The ancient Beaker samples from Britain confirm that. So, originally the Irish and ancient Bretons would not have carried any E-V13. E-V13 would have come later to Britain and Ireland, with the Hallstatt and La Tène Celts, the Romans and the Anglo-Saxons.

Likewise, it is highly doubtful that there was any E-V13 in the Iberian and Italian peninsulas until the Late Bronze Age, as R1b tribes in the Beaker period had no E-V13, and later waves only came from 1500 BCE in Iberia and 1300 BCE in Italy.

E-V13 would have spread to Scandinavia with the Corded Ware culture and thus have been found among all Germanic people later on, if at relatively low frequency.

When R1b tribes settled in Central Europe, they progressively mixed with the Corded Ware people (R1a, G2a, E-V13) during the Unetice period. By the time of the Tumulus culture (1600 to 1200 BCE), J2b2-Z628 would have arrived from the Steppe to Central Europe (presence confirmed in Croatia c. 1700-1500 BCE) and would have joined the mix. R1b-U152 became the dominant lineage around the Alps in what would become the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures (1300-500 BCE). I have long asserted that those Urnfield/Hallstatt, who also gave rise to the Italic tribes, belonged chiefly to R1b-U152 with substantial minorities of G2a (Z1816, L13 and L1264 subclades) and J2b2-L283 (Z628 clade).

In my Genetic history of the Benelux & France (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/benelux_france_dna_project.shtml), I also posited that the Hallstatt people would have also carried minorities of E-V13, I2a2b-L38 and I2c1, as well as possibly some Corded Ware R1a-M458 and locally assimilated Neolithic T1a. I now think that E-V13 may have been much more important, perhaps even the second main Hallstatt Celtic and Italic lineage after R1b-U152 and before G2a-Z1816.

A relatively high proportion of E-V13 among Hallstatt Celts and Italics would explain how E-V13 reached the frequencies observed today in Italy (about the same as in south Germany), at least in the northern half, as the southern E-V13 is presumably more of Greek origin (with nevertheless some Italic E-V13 lineages).

It especially explains the high percentage of E-V13 in western Iberia and along the Mediterranean coast of Spain. The Hallstatt Celts colonised especially the western half of Iberia. Then the Romans later established a lot of colonies along the Mediterranean coast of Spain and all over Andalusia. When we look at the map, that corresponds to these two combined regions. Lower frequencies of E-V13 are observed in other parts of Spain with a smaller number of colonies, and neither the Hallstatt Celts nor the Romans settled in or around the Basque country, where there is indeed no E-V13.

One surprising thing when seeing the map is the lower amount of E-V13 in France, as the French have Alpine Celtic, Roman and Germanic heritage, all people who possessed E-V13 lineages. Actually I am not sure about the frequency of E-V13 in France due to the little data available for E1b1b subclades, or in general the low availability of Y-DNA data from France. But the E1b1b map clearly shows an east to west gradient, which is expected if E-V13 spread from Central Europe westward.

dalmatia and italy where joined before the great flood circa 7000 years ago, if E-V13 was northern balkan or even around noricum it would have been present equally in these areas as it is in south balkans today......the likely scenario is what was written in the paper last year in that thessally, and cyprus played a major part

Maciamo
21-04-18, 21:20
dalmatia and italy where joined before the great flood circa 7000 years ago, if E-V13 was northern balkan or even around noricum it would have been present equally in these areas as it is in south balkans today......the likely scenario is what was written in the paper last year in that thessally, and cyprus played a major part

Italian E-V13 clades are much younger than that. In fact they are usually not much older than 3000 years from what I have seen.

- Z19851 (eg Lombardy) : TMRCA 3400 ybp
- FGC11457 (eg Sicily) : TMRCA 3100 ybp
- PF6784 (eg Calabria) : TMRCA 3100 ybp
- FGC11450 (eg Sardinia) : TMRCA 3100 ybp
- Z25461 (eg Lombardy, Sardinia) : TMRCA 3000 ybp
- BY6162 : less than 3000 ybp (as parent clade is 3000 ybp)
- S2978 (eg Sardinia) : TMRCA 2600 ybp
- PH1173 (eg Sardinia) : TMRCA 1950 ybp
- BY6527 (eg Sicily, Calabria) : TMRCA 1550 ybp

Notice how, except for one slightly older sample from Lombardy, all ages are younger than the Italic migrations, which started 3200 years ago.

Johane Derite
21-04-18, 21:26
Thanks! I did not have that information. I was relying on the data from FTDNA and Yfull, but this is much better. However it is not complete. For example:

- L241 has a TMRCA of 3200 years but that clade is found from Ukraine to England. AFAIK only one of its subclades is Albanian and it is the PH2180 I mentioned above.

- Z38456 is listed above. Its TMRCA is not indicated on your chart, but it is 1650 ybp. BY20093 is not listed on Yfull, but as a side clade of Z38456 it might be a similar age.

- Z16988, FGC11450 and Z16661 are also a very widely distributed and have subclades of their own, so I expect that deeper clades specific to the Balkans will be much younger.


Trojet has more and knows them more in depth. I only have this image that he made. He is busy with work I'm sure he will visit when more free and fill in some gaps : D

Expredel
21-04-18, 21:38
I thought it was clear from my post above that E-V13 in Iran, Iraq and Gulf States was of Indo-Iranian origin. There is a substantial minority of typically Indo-Iranian R1a-Z93, and to a lower extent R1b-Z2103, in countries like the UAE and Qatar. E-V13 came with them.
YFull supports this, with a common Z2013 ancestor for an Italian and Saudi 3700 years ago. Similar story for Z93 3500 years ago. I'd like to see some solid ancient dna evidence however to settle the matter.

Shetop
21-04-18, 22:41
It could be significant for the discussion so I'm attaching the root of the E-V13 tree as it is composed based on the latest available data. The diversity of E-V13 per region should probably be discussed on the level on which are S3003, BY3880, Z16663, BY14151 and Y30976. In that sense Southern Germany indeed does have higher diversity than most of the other regions in Europe, but it is hard to attribute the expansion of E-V13 to Celts based on such argument. In my opinion E-V13 expanded in Europe at the time before the Celts come into play.


https://i.imgur.com/eYw4VBE.png

kuzmosi
22-04-18, 07:15
The Z38456 is a subcalde of Z17107. According to YSEQ: Z17107 TMRCA lived 2600 ybp, in the Iron Age. Thereafter the Z17107 divided into several subgroups, and only one of them is the Z38456 (although the most populous one) All of the known Z38456 members live in the Balkan (except the two swedish), but the other members of the Z17107 is completely missing from the Balkans. At this time we know (FtDNA): 2 Smith from the USA (irish or english), a russian the eastern coast of the Black Sea and two hungarian. And who are not the members of the CTS9320 group in the FTDNA:
Mineev from Russia
Gogua from Georgia
Senetar from US (ruthenian origin from old Hungary)
Pereira from Brasil (portugalian origin)
2 other unnamed ukrainian (from Dobromil and Lvov region)
Gyorffy from Hungary
Rakonjac from Bosnia (but he has cuman roots, not Balkanian origin)

So no one from the Z38456 parent group (Z17107) has a Balkanic origin. So I think, the Z17107 is formed more northward during the Iron Age (the pre-scythian or cimmerian period) and only one of these subgroups move to the Balkan (Z38456)

Ygorcs
22-04-18, 10:06
YFull supports this, with a common Z2013 ancestor for an Italian and Saudi 3700 years ago. Similar story for Z93 3500 years ago. I'd like to see some solid ancient dna evidence however to settle the matter.

Well, 3700 and 3500 years ago leaves us some 1,500-1,700 years or even longer to account for that common origin, a hell of a lot of time for any Y-DNA clade to travel both to Italy and to Saudi Arabia, especially if it had an expansion pattern similar to IE migrations/conquests (which by the Iron Age had reached both the Persian Gulf and Levant, and all of Western Europe, too). Those estimated dates for common ancestry refer much more clearly to a supposed Bronze Age expansion than an expansion during the height of slave trade in the Roman Empire, which was between 1,800-2,000 years ago.

Maciamo
22-04-18, 10:11
YFull supports this, with a common Z2013 ancestor for an Italian and Saudi 3700 years ago. Similar story for Z93 3500 years ago. I'd like to see some solid ancient dna evidence however to settle the matter.

Not sure what you are talking about. There were not Italians, nor Romans, nor even Italics 3700 or 3500 years ago. There is hardly any R1a-Z93 in Italy. It's the Asian (Indo-Iranian) branch of R1a. The rare Z93 samples that may be found in Italy would have come from Phoenicians or Middle Eastern immigrants in Roman times (or later).

Maleth
22-04-18, 10:14
There's a lot of V13 in Saudi Arabia so it's a possibility that V13 are descendants of hundreds, possibly even thousands of Roman slaves that were brought in from Syria.

V13 does seem to trace back 5000 years, but so would R1b among US citizens, because R1b arrived in the US by the thousands, so there is no founder effect.

We'll need ancient DNA to figure this one out, but yfull.com shows an Irishman and Saudi who share a common ancestor 3000 years ago. Not exactly a smoking gun given the scarcity of samples, but it's something to keep an eye on.

the E-V13 expansion during bronze age and not Roman period has already been pointed out. Also there was no such thing as thousands of Slaves from Syria. What are termed 'Slaves' were more local and from surrounding lands. If anything Romans recruited many troops from todays E-V13 hotbeds in the balkans.

Maciamo
22-04-18, 10:17
It could be significant for the discussion so I'm attaching the root of the E-V13 tree as it is composed based on the latest available data. The diversity of E-V13 per region should probably be discussed on the level on which are S3003, BY3880, Z16663, BY14151 and Y30976. In that sense Southern Germany indeed does have higher diversity than most of the other regions in Europe, but it is hard to attribute the expansion of E-V13 to Celts based on such argument. In my opinion E-V13 expanded in Europe at the time before the Celts come into play.


As I said above, E-V13 came to Central Europe during the Corded Ware period, so indeed before the Celts. I explained last year that E-V13 was linked to the Corded Ware and Indo-Iranians. In this thread I am explaining how E-V13 was absorbed by Proto-Italo-Celtic R1b tribes around southern Germany and how it then became part of the Italic tribes and Hallstatt Celts, who re-exported that lineage to places like Iberia, France, Belgium, Britain and Ireland. What is going to be the hardest to sorting out the Germanic vs Celtic vs Italic branches of E-V13. Celtic and Italic have the same roots in Tumulus, Urnfield and Hallstatt, and the Germanic branches from the Corded Ware are also closely related. Continental Germanic branches in particular (Frankish, Anglo-Saxon, Lombard) are going to be hard to separate from Celtic ones as Celtic and Germanic tribes lived side by side in central Germany and Belgium.

Norvila
22-04-18, 10:26
Migration period is ignored when majority of roman citizens escaped huns by fleeing to European outskirts. Very rich findings of Vendel period support this. The poorer citizens could only flee to Alps and Balkan mountains. Dense provincies of Pannonia and Noricum became wilderness after Rome abandomed Limes with legions stationed in the cities.
Maciamo theory supports also placenames left by boii celts and greek words in Lithuanian language.

Maciamo
22-04-18, 11:04
Migration period is ignored when majority of roman citizens escaped huns by fleeing to European outskirts. Very rich findings of Vendel period support this. The poorer citizens could only flee to Alps and Balkan mountains. Dense provincies of Pannonia and Noricum became wilderness after Rome abandomed Limes with legions stationed in the cities.

It's very hard to estimate what percentage of the population fled, and how many of them returned after the Huns were defeated. After all, the Hunnic domination of Roman provinces like Pannonia and Noricum only last a few decades in the first half of the 5th century (until Attila's death in 453).


Maciamo theory supports also placenames left by boii celts and greek words in Lithuanian language.

Why is that?

Trojet
22-04-18, 19:39
Thanks! I did not have that information. I was relying on the data from FTDNA and Yfull, but this is much better. However it is not complete. For example:
- L241 has a TMRCA of 3200 years but that clade is found from Ukraine to England. AFAIK only one of its subclades is Albanian and it is the PH2180 I mentioned above.
- Z38456 is listed above. Its TMRCA is not indicated on your chart, but it is 1650 ybp. BY20093 is not listed on Yfull, but as a side clade of Z38456 it might be a similar age.
- Z16988, FGC11450 and Z16661 are also a very widely distributed and have subclades of their own, so I expect that deeper clades specific to the Balkans will be much younger.


Trojet has more and knows them more in depth. I only have this image that he made. He is busy with work I'm sure he will visit when more free and fill in some gaps : D

That phylogenetic tree was made last year when we didn't have many BigY results, such as the two L241>PH2180. It is simply meant to show what subclades of E-V13 Albanians belong to, and not necessarily the subclade diversity within Albanian samples. To be honest, Maciamo's observation is not far off in this regard, considering current state of knowledge. Those of us who are involved in Albanian Y-DNA research have had this observation for a while and before any BigY's, simply based on Y-STR calculations. That is, even though we have Albanians who belong to different subclades of E-V13 or any other haplogroup, the diversity within these subclades which are exclusive to Albanians doesn't seem to go beyond 2000 years. In fact, so far the only subclade that's exclusive to Albanians and goes beyond 2000 years is J2b2-Z1296>PH2967 or J-Y20899 at YFull.
The thing to keep in mind is that we're still extremely under-tested especially when it comes to NGS or BigY. The vast majority of higher resolution samples come from North Albania and Kosova, so I expect this to chance as more Albanians get tested in higher resolution tests. However, this is not necessarily a bad thing. IMO, it points to an isolated and homogeneous population that has expanded since Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages.

Johane Derite
22-04-18, 19:44
That phylogenetic tree was made last year when we didn't have many BigY results, such as the two L241>PH2180. It's simply meant to show what subclades of E-V13 Albanians belong to and not necessarily the subclade diversity within Albanian samples. To be honest, Maciamo's observation is not off in this regard. Those of us who are involved in Albanian Y-DNA research have had this observation for a while and before any BigY's, simply based on Y-STR calculations. That is, even though we have Albanians who belong to different subclades or E-V13 or any other haplogroup, the diversity within these subclades which are exclusive to Albanians doesn't go beyond 2000 years. In fact, so far the only subclade that's exclusive to Albanians and goes beyond 2000 years is J2b2-Z1296>PH2967 or J-Y20899 at YFull.
The thing to keep in mind is that we're still extremely under-tested especially when it comes to NGS or BigY. The vast majority of higher resolution samples come from North Albania and Kosova, so I expect this to chance as more Albanians get tested in higher resolution tests. However, this is not necessarily a bad thing. IMO, it points to an isolated and homogeneous population that has expanded since Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages.

Thanks Trojet!

blevins13
22-04-18, 21:39
As I said above, E-V13 came to Central Europe during the Corded Ware period, so indeed before the Celts. I explained last year that E-V13 was linked to the Corded Ware and Indo-Iranians. In this thread I am explaining how E-V13 was absorbed by Proto-Italo-Celtic R1b tribes around southern Germany and how it then became part of the Italic tribes and Hallstatt Celts, who re-exported that lineage to places like Iberia, France, Belgium, Britain and Ireland. What is going to be the hardest to sorting out the Germanic vs Celtic vs Italic branches of E-V13. Celtic and Italic have the same roots in Tumulus, Urnfield and Hallstatt, and the Germanic branches from the Corded Ware are also closely related. Continental Germanic branches in particular (Frankish, Anglo-Saxon, Lombard) are going to be hard to separate from Celtic ones as Celtic and Germanic tribes lived side by side in central Germany and Belgium.

Interesting....but still not clear how became major haplogroup in Peloponnesus.....


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Ownstyler
23-04-18, 00:30
In fact, so far the only subclade that's exclusive to Albanians and goes beyond 2000 years is J2b2-Z1296>PH2967 or J-Y20899 at YFull. IMO, it points to an isolated and homogeneous population that has expanded since Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages.

If we're trying to see where the subclades came from, shouldn't we be looking at regional rather than exclusively Albanian subclades? It's clear that cultural and linguistic identities have shifted continuously since Antiquity so subclades that are not ethnically homogenous today might have been in the past. I2a and some R1a groups heavily settled the region in the early Middle Ages, but the peoples high in I2a and R1a today also have R1b, J2 and E-V13. That means they were assimilated by the newcomers. Before those migrations though, they were most likely part of the native peoples. The point is that if there is a subclade of E-V13 that has a TMRCA of more than 2000 years, but is regionally spread today, the subclade was already there 2000 years ago.


IMO, it points to an isolated and homogeneous population that has expanded since Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages.

I think the fact that these "Albanian" subclades converge to about 4000 years, but they are generally only around 1000-2000 years old within themselves, suggests a common ancestry but also a serious population bottleneck that ended around the time these new subclades emerged. Either there was a population decrease, or most of the people who shared that ancestry were assimilated into other groups (or both).

Trojet
23-04-18, 02:51
If we're trying to see where the subclades came from, shouldn't we be looking at regional rather than exclusively Albanian subclades? It's clear that cultural and linguistic identities have shifted continuously since Antiquity so subclades that are not ethnically homogenous today might have been in the past. I2a and some R1a groups heavily settled the region in the early Middle Ages, but the peoples high in I2a and R1a today also have R1b, J2 and E-V13. That means they were assimilated by the newcomers. Before those migrations though, they were most likely part of the native peoples. The point is that if there is a subclade of E-V13 that has a TMRCA of more than 2000 years, but is regionally spread today, the subclade was already there 2000 years ago.
I think the fact that these "Albanian" subclades converge to about 4000 years, but they are generally only around 1000-2000 years old within themselves, suggests a common ancestry but also a serious population bottleneck that ended around the time these new subclades emerged. Either there was a population decrease, or most of the people who shared that ancestry were assimilated into other groups (or both).

Yes, I was taking into account regional diversity within these subclades. So the better wording should've been predominantly instead of exclusively Albanian. As I stated in the original post though, I expect this to change as more people get tested in higher resolution tests. Simply, the observation is based on available data. Also, keep in mind that I never said that these subclades all of a sudden just showed up in Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages ;)

Exactly, a bottleneck would be a reason why we get this phenomenon, which would lead to the things I mentioned..

Expredel
23-04-18, 14:44
Not sure what you are talking about. There were not Italians, nor Romans, nor even Italics 3700 or 3500 years ago. There is hardly any R1a-Z93 in Italy. It's the Asian (Indo-Iranian) branch of R1a. The rare Z93 samples that may be found in Italy would have come from Phoenicians or Middle Eastern immigrants in Roman times (or later).
Their common ancestor lived 3500 and 3700 years ago, of course using yfull dating, which is probably the most accurate estimate anyways.

Things will get interesting when yfull gets more samples, because the data then becomes like an hourglass, we'll be able to see clearly when a lineage left country A for B, and we can see when a lineage begins branching out in country B.

I've checked out the Hallstatt article on Wikipedia and it's very badly sourced. It's unclear to me what criteria are used for inclusion in the Hallstatt culture, and how these criteria are applied to create these maps. Slightly off-topic, but do any maps exist of all burial mounds, with information about type and age?

Maciamo
24-04-18, 09:29
Interesting....but still not clear how became major haplogroup in Peloponnesus.....


The Mycenaeans, as I explained too.

blevins13
24-04-18, 17:30
The Mycenaeans, as I explained too.

So Mycenaeans were part of the Hallstatt culture....


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Trojet
24-04-18, 19:46
The Mycenaeans, as I explained too.
There is some Greek haplotypes matching with Albanians, so some of it is Albanian/Arvanite.

Maleth
24-04-18, 22:34
@Expredel


the E-V13 expansion during bronze age and not Roman period has already been pointed out. Also there was no such thing as thousands of Slaves from Syria. What are termed 'Slaves' were more local and from surrounding lands. If anything Romans recruited many troops from todays E-V13 hotbeds in the balkans.

quote:- Generally slaves in Italy were indigenous Italians,[43] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Rome#cite_note-43) with a minority of foreigners (including both slaves and freedmen) born outside of Italy estimated at 5% of the total in the capital, where their number was largest, at its peak. Those from outside of Europe were predominantly of Greek descent, while the Jewish ones never fully assimilated into Roman society, remaining an identifiable minority.- unquote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Rome

Power77
29-04-18, 02:00
I don’t buy for a second that this marker is connected (or has ever been so for that matter) to either Celts or Germanics. After all, E-V13 has yet to appear in ancient Celtic and Germanic remains.

Zanatis
12-05-18, 10:21
Looking at its distribution in Spain, E-V13 looks indeed like an early Celtic haplogroup.

ToBeOrNotToBe
12-05-18, 12:31
Is it this admixture that made the U152 branch less NW Euro admixed than the L21 branch, as if so this could be a good candidate for Alpinisation/Dinaricisation in that region.

Whatever the case, the much lower levels of red hair in U152 territory (I'll exclude the Italians because of the obvious Med. admixture) have to come from some form of admixture event.

Dibran
15-05-18, 16:51
That phylogenetic tree was made last year when we didn't have many BigY results, such as the two L241>PH2180. It is simply meant to show what subclades of E-V13 Albanians belong to, and not necessarily the subclade diversity within Albanian samples. To be honest, Maciamo's observation is not far off in this regard, considering current state of knowledge. Those of us who are involved in Albanian Y-DNA research have had this observation for a while and before any BigY's, simply based on Y-STR calculations. That is, even though we have Albanians who belong to different subclades of E-V13 or any other haplogroup, the diversity within these subclades which are exclusive to Albanians doesn't seem to go beyond 2000 years. In fact, so far the only subclade that's exclusive to Albanians and goes beyond 2000 years is J2b2-Z1296>PH2967 or J-Y20899 at YFull.
The thing to keep in mind is that we're still extremely under-tested especially when it comes to NGS or BigY. The vast majority of higher resolution samples come from North Albania and Kosova, so I expect this to chance as more Albanians get tested in higher resolution tests. However, this is not necessarily a bad thing. IMO, it points to an isolated and homogeneous population that has expanded since Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages.

Kelmandasi's Maternal grandfather from Mali, Dibra, is basal E-CTS5856* which seems to be older than 4200ypb. Granted I think that is the first case for Albanians so I imagine its not indicative of Albanian specific clades. Still interesting though. If more Albanians in Diber and elsewhere pop up with a similar clade as his grandfathers, it could be another one added to the tree. You know more about this stuff though, so I leave it to you lol.

Kelmendasi
15-05-18, 18:28
Kelmandasi's Maternal grandfather from Mali, Dibra, is basal E-CTS5856* which seems to be older than 4200ypb. Granted I think that is the first case for Albanians so I imagine its not indicative of Albanian specific clades. Still interesting though. If more Albanians in Diber and elsewhere pop up with a similar clade as his grandfathers, it could be another one added to the tree. You know more about this stuff though, so I leave it to you lol.
They are from Borova in Dibra, the surname is Mali

Dibran
15-05-18, 20:12
They are from Borova in Dibra, the surname is Mali


Ah. Graci. lol Thought from a place named Mali. Now I recall you mentioned that was the surname. I type on the fly. lmao

Kelmendasi
15-05-18, 20:37
Ah. Graci. lol Thought from a place named Mali. Now I recall you mentioned that was the surname. I type on the fly. lmao
No problemo broski.

Zanatis
16-05-18, 07:24
The Z38456 is a subcalde of Z17107. According to YSEQ: Z17107 TMRCA lived 2600 ybp, in the Iron Age. Thereafter the Z17107 divided into several subgroups, and only one of them is the Z38456 (although the most populous one) All of the known Z38456 members live in the Balkan (except the two swedish), but the other members of the Z17107 is completely missing from the Balkans. At this time we know (FtDNA): 2 Smith from the USA (irish or english), a russian the eastern coast of the Black Sea and two hungarian. And who are not the members of the CTS9320 group in the FTDNA:
Mineev from Russia
Gogua from Georgia
Senetar from US (ruthenian origin from old Hungary)
Pereira from Brasil (portugalian origin)
2 other unnamed ukrainian (from Dobromil and Lvov region)
Gyorffy from Hungary
Rakonjac from Bosnia (but he has cuman roots, not Balkanian origin)

So no one from the Z38456 parent group (Z17107) has a Balkanic origin. So I think, the Z17107 is formed more northward during the Iron Age (the pre-scythian or cimmerian period) and only one of these subgroups move to the Balkan (Z38456)
The Rakonjac tested were from Serbia or Montenegro (Bijelo Polje) and the clan claims to be from Kuci, Montenegro. Where did you get the information that they're Cuman?

Aspurg
16-05-18, 20:16
The Rakonjac tested were from Serbia or Montenegro (Bijelo Polje) and the clan claims to be from Kuci, Montenegro. Where did you get the information that they're Cuman?

He got it from me and I am from Rakonjac clan. :) Rakonjac belong to a completely different clade to Kuchi. Among some branches of our family it was popular to say that we are "from Kuchi", but I always doubted it as our surname is very old and actually in 1645 when our family was attested in the Bijelo Polje area there were no Kuchi around, or various other Brda clans. We do not have genetic relatives in Kuchi, we do not have any genetic relatives anywhere other than one likely Bosniak from Tuzla area, and two other Serbian families from Rudnik area, who have more distant origin from Peshter area near Sjenica and Bijelo Polje. Villages from where these families have ancestry from had without any doubt Cuman traces. I cannot say who they are because this information has not yet been published in an upcoming study.


We have close relatives in Sofiya, Bulgaria, Macedonia, and from recent study of Serbia two relatives. One is from Vranje area, the other most likely from Pirot area near Bulgarian border. As I have been informed that these haplotypes do not appear among Serbs from those areas in this large upcoming study, that increases the likelihood these might be Bulgarians from places like Bosilegrad etc. Also one haplotype from Grevena area is related to us. And not to forget, one haplotype from Kalmykia is very likely relatively closely related to us.
Because these related haplotypes are close but more diversified it is literally impossible that our clan are not recent arrivals (Medieval 700 years ago) from the Shop region.


And there is a mountain of other sort of evidence agreeing with it. The place from where we derive our surname village Rakonje from Bijelo Polje is already mentioned in ottoman census of 1485, as mezra Spocha also known as Rakon , in hand of Subasha Ahmed who was a known ottoman magnate in the area in 15th century. mezra (uninhabited land) belonged to monastery of Nikoljac in Bijelo Polje. Second name in turkish sefters usually designates the tribal group. For example the Vasojevich village in same census is attested as Rjecica also known as Vasojevic. Member of our family with our same surname was mentioned in 1645 to have been ktitor (who builds or provides funds for reconstruction of churches or monasteries) of the same monastery, and that is actually clear evidence Rakonjac family were ktitors of the same monastery in 16th century and also in 15th century.


The most reliable tradition about the origin of Rakonjac family has proven to be the one from a branch in Rudnik area who according to their tradition arrived there 400 or more years ago. They said the old surname was Popovic, that they came from Sjenica/Peshter area. They mentioned no Kuchi whatsoever. Also the second tradition from the another Sjenica branch mentiones no Kuchi.


Indeed in Ottoman census data of 16th century, albeit surnames were rare on two places in Sjenica area the surname of Popovic was mentioned. This was a community of voynuk status, who even possessed timars and were part of the Ottoman system.


Only such people could have been ktitors of an important monastery in those times.


The tradition of (some) Rakonjac descending from Kuchi was not accepted by prof. Lutovac in his book about Bihor and Korita area, simply because this family even then was known to have been present in Bijelo Polje area before the Ottoman-Austrian wars of 1683-1697. Prior to those times the population of Lim area was very similar to Medieval, no Kuchi, Vasojevici and other clans from the South. After the events of Ottoman-Austrian wars there was a huge migration of Serbian population and then came Brda clans and others. Rakonjac family then began to lose influence we had before and our status. There was a battle with Ottomans involving Kuchi in Bijelo Polje in late 17th century so some of our elements might have "added" themselves to Kuchi.


But Rakonjac tradition about Kuchi is made up, and has no basis in genetics nor documentary evidence. Neither our family descends from them nor do they come from there.


Besides Rakonjac family has far more prominent origins than Kuchi, or just about almost anybody. :)
On the court of Serbian ruler Despote Stefan Lazarevic in 1422 a certain Novak Kumaničić was mentioned. This family is assumed to descend from Bijelo Polje-Brodarevo area. There is an old monastery of Kumanica north of Bijelo Polje. There is a second monastery of Kumanica in Rudnik certainly connected to this Kumaničić family.

In addition there is clear evidence that there was a population of Cuman origin in the area of Bijelo Polje and Rudnik and that we are this population. Long before Hungarians were tested I have learned of it.
Kuzmosi seems 2300 years distant from us but there is a second Kungarian family, Gyorffi from Karcag who are much closer to Rakonjac, 1000-1300 years. This is a known family, and Cuman statues in Karcag (founded by Cumans) were made by their member.:)


Not only that we come from Bulgaria, our ancestors even still spoke Bulgarian in Bijelo Polje area. Names of villages such as Razhdagina (Bulgarian zhd as opposed to Serbian đ/dj, Razhdane/Rađanje, one of those other families has some ties with this village) actually and even Peshter itself is a "cave" in Bulgarian. Also the village Boljare (Bolyars), Krće (attested in Ottoman documents as Kirovche), I can go on and on. Can be also seen by names of some timar holders in 15th century.


In 1254 Dubrovnik had a conflict with Serbia, also a claimant to Serbian throne was with them, Dubrovnik had a pact with Bulgaria and called Bulgarians for help. In 1253/4 Bulgarian or Bulgarian/Cuman army did reach precisely Bijelo Polje area and they ransacked the monastery of St. Peter and stole relics. It is one tempting ways for arrival of our family because we just don't have any close relatives among Serbs but we do in Bulgaria/Macedonia.


Second option the lords of Braničevo area Darman and Kudelin were in conflict with Serbia and in 1292 they were defeated, presumably killed. In one village next to Bijelo Polje that I know must be connected to us both personal names of Darman and Kudelin were mentioned. That would be the only such occurrence anywhere, and hint we are their descendants, or at the very least related.


Rakon as the basis of our surname was also in the Bijelo Polje area mentioned as Rajkun (Raykun), it seems to have been some sort of tribal name because it occurs usually as "second name" not fathers name. I have found it on one place in Bulgaria in 16th century. Near Plovdiv in the same village where it is found name Kuman was attested as was another unique name Kosko, in Bulgarian there is a form Kusko which means short but that is the only such form anywhere found in Bulgaria, and according to Hungarian author Peter Kun there was a Cuman name Qosqa which means "bald". In addition in a village next to that village (Kuchuk Rogozh) there are the only two instances in Bulgaria, that I know of, of the Cuman name Kunbek. Kipchak form is Bek, Oghuz is Bey.


Rakonjac, Popovic, Kumanicic was not out oldest clan name. I know what it is, 500 years ago it was ancient.


Interestingly of these families tho are our close relatives (one has a very Bulgarian-like surname) they hail near the village Baljen on Peshter or Balinova in census. It seems based on Cuman personal name of Balik, but also on a Cuman city of Balin in Black Cumania, mentioned in early 12th century.


About genetics, already it seems obvious our particular haplogroup expanded not from the Balkans but from the East. Based on my 111 STR calculations TMRCA for all of us cannot go past 2500 years (probably between 2300 and 2500), and that also includes Russian families of Schepak, Mineev and Ponomarev (for now), who among them are not close. Also 3 Megrelians from Georgia are likely to be related to us. And actually one of them is connected to an East Azeri from northern Iran and that was on a small sample of only 21. Considering of whom we descend from it's completely expected there would be Azeri cousins.
Also it seems Schepak has a relative in Sofiya where we have a close relative. Sofiya area had large amount of Cuman traces.


Because Kumaničić family was powerful and aware of their ancestry I know our descend 600 years ago, 800, 1000, 1300, 1600, 1900, etc. which is not something vast majority of people will ever know for their ancestry. :)


Rakonjac family has association to monasteries. Actually in early 14th century there was some Cuman like population in north Kosovo area, that had the status of Sokalnik, because of some names they might have had connection with Bijelo Polje area. Sokalniks served monasteries, I wonder whether that was some punishment for some earlier Cuman behavior. :)


These monasteries we seem to have connection to include Nikoljac built in late 14th century, we might have easily built it considering our centuries old ktitor connection with it. Bijelo Polje is a recent term, in 16th century it was called Nikolja crkva Pazar, or the market place around Nikoljac church. And as such it is mentioned in Dubrovnik documents from around 1450 as well. But other monasteries seem with weird names, two Kumanica's and another one near Bijelo Polje in 15th century with the name Narta. Anybody familiar with North Caucasus culture will know what Narta means. :)

Johane Derite
16-05-18, 20:24
These monasteries we seem to have connection to include Nikoljac built in late 14th century, we might have easily built it considering our centuries old ktitor connection with it. Bijelo Polje is a recent term, in 16th century it was called Nikolja crkva Pazar, or the market place around Nikoljac church. And as such it is mentioned in Dubrovnik documents from around 1450 as well. But other monasteries seem with weird names, two Kumanica's and another one near Bijelo Polje in 15th century with the name Narta. Anybody familiar with North Caucasus culture will know what Narta means. :)

Nartë in Albanian means clear, pristine, pure and is used when describing water. Why are you jumping all the way to North Caucuasus cultures before checking what it means in the Albanian language, since it is a territory with Albanians?

"Bijelo Polje is a town in northeastern Montenegro on the Lim River."

Seriously, insane.

NARTË mb.


I kulluar, i kthjellët, i cemtë (për ujin). Ujë i nartë.

LABERIA
16-05-18, 20:51
Nartë in Albanian means clear, pristine, pure and is used when describing water. Why are you jumping all the way to North Caucuasus cultures before checking what it means in the Albanian language, since it is a territory with Albanians?

"Bijelo Polje is a town in northeastern Montenegro on the Lim River."

Seriously, insane.

NARTË mb.


I kulluar, i kthjellët, i cemtë (për ujin). Ujë i nartë.



And this is Narta Lagoon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narta_Lagoon) in South Albania:
http://www.alketislami.com/images/albanianrivierafromthesky1/014.jpg

This is Narta River (https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumi_i_Nart%C3%ABs) in Chameria, today this region is annexed by Greece and Greeks changed the name in Arachthos river:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/%CE%A4%CE%BF_%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%86%CF%8D%CF%81% CE%B9_%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%86%CF%81%CF%84%CE%B1% CF%82.jpg

Zanatis
16-05-18, 21:57
I was about to point out the Narta thing but I see I'm late.

As for your subclade, I don't doubt that you come from Bulgaria as you seem to have dug deep but in the same time it seems to me your ancestors could have been simply an assimilated local, such as a Vlach or Albanian. If they came indeed from modern Bulgaria then Vlach would be the one to go, but if they came from Macedonia or even Serbia then both ethnicities could be considered.

Johane Derite
16-05-18, 23:20
These monasteries we seem to have connection to include Nikoljac built in late 14th century, we might have easily built it considering our centuries old ktitor connection with it. Bijelo Polje is a recent term, in 16th century it was called Nikolja crkva Pazar, or the market place around Nikoljac church. And as such it is mentioned in Dubrovnik documents from around 1450 as well. But other monasteries seem with weird names, two Kumanica's and another one near Bijelo Polje in 15th century with the name Narta. Anybody familiar with North Caucasus culture will know what Narta means. :)

What are the chances. I was going through High Albania by Edith Durham for the archeology thread completely unrelated to our discussion
here (about Ev13 and which tribes they are attached to) and what shows up? Montenegro specifically. Here is Edith Durham and what she notes:

"Vasojevich.—Is since the Treaty of Berlin half Montenegrin and half under Turkey. Is all Orthodox and Serbophone. It is noteworthy that in theMontenegrin part many Albanian proper names occur with Serb terminations,e.g., Dedich and Dedovich. Ded = Domenic in Albania.

Other Montenegrin tribes consanguineous with Albanian ones :

Bijelo Pavlich.—One of the largest Montenegrin tribes, also joined Montenegroin 1790. It traces origin from Bijelo Pavlo (White Paul), one of the Dukaghins of Mirdita, known in Mirdita as Pal i bardh. The tribe is all Orthodox and Serbophone.

Kuchi.—Kuchi has been included in Montenegro since 1877. It fought on the Montenegrin side in the last war. One of its hariaka, Drekalovich,traces direct descent from Berisha in Albania. It is now, I believe, all Serbophone."

**edited for mistake**

Kelmendasi
16-05-18, 23:29
What are the chances. I was going through High Albania by Edith Durham for the archeology thread completely unrelated to our discussion
here (about Ev13 and which tribes they are attached to) and what shows up? But Bijelo Polje that you mention here and the "weird names" you point to. Here is Edith Durham and what she notes:

"Vasojevich.—Is since the Treaty of Berlin half Montenegrin and half under Turkey. Is all Orthodox and Serbophone. It is noteworthy that in theMontenegrin part many Albanian proper names occur with Serb terminations,e.g., Dedich and Dedovich. Ded = Domenic in Albania.

Other Montenegrin tribes consanguineous with Albanian ones :

Bijelo Pavlich.—One of the largest Montenegrin tribes, also joined Montenegroin 1790. It traces origin from Bijelo Pavlo (White Paul), one of the Dukaghins of Mirdita, known in Mirdita as Pal i bardh. The tribe is all Orthodox and Serbophone.

Kuchi.—Kuchi has been included in Montenegro since 1877. It fought on the Montenegrin side in the last war. One of its hariaka, Drekalovich,traces direct descent from Berisha in Albania. It is now, I believe, all Serbophone."
Interestingly enough, the Palbardhi/Bjelopavlici are E-V13>Z16988 like Kelmendi although are pretty distant if you take TMRCA into account but it's still interesting and I have heard some Albanians claim that their families are from Palbardhi which makes me think that the Bjelopavlici/Palbardhi were either Albanians originally or had an Albanian branch. Also Kuqi originally claim to have come from the Berisha e Kuqe branch of Berisha, they were catholic and Albanian before becoming Orthodox and "Serb", the Kuqi still has Albanians in it, Luhari, Fundina etc are still all Albanian villages for example also the Kuqi are E-V13>Z16661 which is the same as the Bankeqi brotherhood of Trieshi although they are pretty distant but it further establishes that Kuqi were all Albanian before, also they were recorded as being Catholic and Albanian by Mariano Bozzila in the 17th century as well as the founder of the Drekali was recorded as being a catholic.

Milan.M
17-05-18, 00:05
He got it from me and I am from Rakonjac clan. :) Rakonjac belong to a completely different clade to Kuchi. Among some branches of our family it was popular to say that we are "from Kuchi", but I always doubted it as our surname is very old and actually in 1645 when our family was attested in the Bijelo Polje area there were no Kuchi around, or various other Brda clans. We do not have genetic relatives in Kuchi, we do not have any genetic relatives anywhere other than one likely Bosniak from Tuzla area, and two other Serbian families from Rudnik area, who have more distant origin from Peshter area near Sjenica and Bijelo Polje. Villages from where these families have ancestry from had without any doubt Cuman traces. I cannot say who they are because this information has not yet been published in an upcoming study.
We have close relatives in Sofiya, Bulgaria, Macedonia, and from recent study of Serbia two relatives. One is from Vranje area, the other most likely from Pirot area near Bulgarian border. As I have been informed that these haplotypes do not appear among Serbs from those areas in this large upcoming study, that increases the likelihood these might be Bulgarians from places like Bosilegrad etc. Also one haplotype from Grevena area is related to us. And not to forget, one haplotype from Kalmykia is very likely relatively closely related to us.
Because these related haplotypes are close but more diversified it is literally impossible that our clan are not recent arrivals (Medieval 700 years ago) from the Shop region.
And there is a mountain of other sort of evidence agreeing with it. The place from where we derive our surname village Rakonje from Bijelo Polje is already mentioned in ottoman census of 1485, as mezra Spocha also known as Rakon , in hand of Subasha Ahmed who was a known ottoman magnate in the area in 15th century. mezra (uninhabited land) belonged to monastery of Nikoljac in Bijelo Polje. Second name in turkish sefters usually designates the tribal group. For example the Vasojevich village in same census is attested as Rjecica also known as Vasojevic. Member of our family with our same surname was mentioned in 1645 to have been ktitor (who builds or provides funds for reconstruction of churches or monasteries) of the same monastery, and that is actually clear evidence Rakonjac family were ktitors of the same monastery in 16th century and also in 15th century.
The most reliable tradition about the origin of Rakonjac family has proven to be the one from a branch in Rudnik area who according to their tradition arrived there 400 or more years ago. They said the old surname was Popovic, that they came from Sjenica/Peshter area. They mentioned no Kuchi whatsoever. Also the second tradition from the another Sjenica branch mentiones no Kuchi.
Indeed in Ottoman census data of 16th century, albeit surnames were rare on two places in Sjenica area the surname of Popovic was mentioned. This was a community of voynuk status, who even possessed timars and were part of the Ottoman system.
Only such people could have been ktitors of an important monastery in those times.
The tradition of (some) Rakonjac descending from Kuchi was not accepted by prof. Lutovac in his book about Bihor and Korita area, simply because this family even then was known to have been present in Bijelo Polje area before the Ottoman-Austrian wars of 1683-1697. Prior to those times the population of Lim area was very similar to Medieval, no Kuchi, Vasojevici and other clans from the South. After the events of Ottoman-Austrian wars there was a huge migration of Serbian population and then came Brda clans and others. Rakonjac family then began to lose influence we had before and our status. There was a battle with Ottomans involving Kuchi in Bijelo Polje in late 17th century so some of our elements might have "added" themselves to Kuchi.
But Rakonjac tradition about Kuchi is made up, and has no basis in genetics nor documentary evidence. Neither our family descends from them nor do they come from there.
Besides Rakonjac family has far more prominent origins than Kuchi, or just about almost anybody. :)
On the court of Serbian ruler Despote Stefan Lazarevic in 1422 a certain Novak Kumaničić was mentioned. This family is assumed to descend from Bijelo Polje-Brodarevo area. There is an old monastery of Kumanica north of Bijelo Polje. There is a second monastery of Kumanica in Rudnik certainly connected to this Kumaničić family.
In addition there is clear evidence that there was a population of Cuman origin in the area of Bijelo Polje and Rudnik and that we are this population. Long before Hungarians were tested I have learned of it.
Kuzmosi seems 2300 years distant from us but there is a second Kungarian family, Gyorffi from Karcag who are much closer to Rakonjac, 1000-1300 years. This is a known family, and Cuman statues in Karcag (founded by Cumans) were made by their member.:)
Not only that we come from Bulgaria, our ancestors even still spoke Bulgarian in Bijelo Polje area. Names of villages such as Razhdagina (Bulgarian zhd as opposed to Serbian đ/dj, Razhdane/Rađanje, one of those other families has some ties with this village) actually and even Peshter itself is a "cave" in Bulgarian. Also the village Boljare (Bolyars), Krće (attested in Ottoman documents as Kirovche), I can go on and on. Can be also seen by names of some timar holders in 15th century.
In 1254 Dubrovnik had a conflict with Serbia, also a claimant to Serbian throne was with them, Dubrovnik had a pact with Bulgaria and called Bulgarians for help. In 1253/4 Bulgarian or Bulgarian/Cuman army did reach precisely Bijelo Polje area and they ransacked the monastery of St. Peter and stole relics. It is one tempting ways for arrival of our family because we just don't have any close relatives among Serbs but we do in Bulgaria/Macedonia.
Second option the lords of Braničevo area Darman and Kudelin were in conflict with Serbia and in 1292 they were defeated, presumably killed. In one village next to Bijelo Polje that I know must be connected to us both personal names of Darman and Kudelin were mentioned. That would be the only such occurrence anywhere, and hint we are their descendants, or at the very least related.
Rakon as the basis of our surname was also in the Bijelo Polje area mentioned as Rajkun (Raykun), it seems to have been some sort of tribal name because it occurs usually as "second name" not fathers name. I have found it on one place in Bulgaria in 16th century. Near Plovdiv in the same village where it is found name Kuman was attested as was another unique name Kosko, in Bulgarian there is a form Kusko which means short but that is the only such form anywhere found in Bulgaria, and according to Hungarian author Peter Kun there was a Cuman name Qosqa which means "bald". In addition in a village next to that village (Kuchuk Rogozh) there are the only two instances in Bulgaria, that I know of, of the Cuman name Kunbek. Kipchak form is Bek, Oghuz is Bey.
Rakonjac, Popovic, Kumanicic was not out oldest clan name. I know what it is, 500 years ago it was ancient.
Interestingly of these families tho are our close relatives (one has a very Bulgarian-like surname) they hail near the village Baljen on Peshter or Balinova in census. It seems based on Cuman personal name of Balik, but also on a Cuman city of Balin in Black Cumania, mentioned in early 12th century.
About genetics, already it seems obvious our particular haplogroup expanded not from the Balkans but from the East. Based on my 111 STR calculations TMRCA for all of us cannot go past 2500 years (probably between 2300 and 2500), and that also includes Russian families of Schepak, Mineev and Ponomarev (for now), who among them are not close. Also 3 Megrelians from Georgia are likely to be related to us. And actually one of them is connected to an East Azeri from northern Iran and that was on a small sample of only 21. Considering of whom we descend from it's completely expected there would be Azeri cousins.
Also it seems Schepak has a relative in Sofiya where we have a close relative. Sofiya area had large amount of Cuman traces.
Because Kumaničić family was powerful and aware of their ancestry I know our descend 600 years ago, 800, 1000, 1300, 1600, 1900, etc. which is not something vast majority of people will ever know for their ancestry. :)
Rakonjac family has association to monasteries. Actually in early 14th century there was some Cuman like population in north Kosovo area, that had the status of Sokalnik, because of some names they might have had connection with Bijelo Polje area. Sokalniks served monasteries, I wonder whether that was some punishment for some earlier Cuman behavior. :)
These monasteries we seem to have connection to include Nikoljac built in late 14th century, we might have easily built it considering our centuries old ktitor connection with it. Bijelo Polje is a recent term, in 16th century it was called Nikolja crkva Pazar, or the market place around Nikoljac church. And as such it is mentioned in Dubrovnik documents from around 1450 as well. But other monasteries seem with weird names, two Kumanica's and another one near Bijelo Polje in 15th century with the name Narta. Anybody familiar with North Caucasus culture will know what Narta means. :)
Interesting thought there by no doubt should be Cuman lineages among Balkan people mostly Bulgaria,Serbia and Hungary as they were employed like soldiers many of whom reached even noble rank,many places names trough the Balkan has their name,about genetics this has maybe yet to be determined even I admire your deep research. For myself I could get back to my paternal ancestry gathered from relatives that they were living in Orahovac in Kosovo from where after the Austro-Turkish war 1778-1791 migrated in the mountains that are on present border between Serbia,Macedonia and Bulgaria from where I have more detailed information about my ancestors.There was Ottoman retaliation after the war and many fled to mountains or outside the Ottoman empire.

Aspurg
17-05-18, 00:07
Nartë in Albanian means clear, pristine, pure and is used when describing water. Why are you jumping all the way to North Caucuasus cultures before checking what it means in the Albanian language, since it is a territory with Albanians?


"Bijelo Polje is a town in northeastern Montenegro on the Lim River."


Seriously, insane.


NARTË mb.
I kulluar, i kthjellët, i cemtë (për ujin). Ujë i nartë.




And this is Narta Lagoon in South Albania:
This is Narta River in Chameria, today this region is annexed by Greece and Greeks changed the name in Arachthos river:



You are correct that such toponyms are found, and their story is different. But I still think my ancestors have kept their ways for so long for this cult to have survived. They have done it for other of our traditions so why not that as well. Also they were in contact with Alans, they might have picked it up from them too.




"Bijelo Polje is a town in northeastern Montenegro on the Lim River."


Which was visited by a Bulgarian-Cuman army in 1254.



I was about to point out the Narta thing but I see I'm late.


As for your subclade, I don't doubt that you come from Bulgaria as you seem to have dug deep but in the same time it seems to me your ancestors could have been simply an assimilated local, such as a Vlach or Albanian.


Could have but they are not. However the Vlachs did assimilate some Cumans.








or Albanian.


We do have distant cousins among Albanians of the clade Z38456. However neither among commercially tested Albanians, nor among any Albanians from scientific studies are my haplotypes found.








If they came indeed from modern Bulgaria then Vlach would be the one to go, but if they came from Macedonia or even Serbia then both ethnicities could be considered.


I have considered and rejected any notion that we descend from paleo-balkan population in a historical sense, that is past 2600-3000 years. That is indeed the narrative for the vast majority of Balkan V13 but as it seems not for us. Generalizations (that all E-V13 are of recent Balkanic origin) often lead to wrong conclusions, for example such that the entire Slavic I2-CTS10228 is Slavic, even though the branch A2512 is not.


Already as I have said calculations on 111 STR markers show my clan being genetically closer to three Russian families than to any other Balkan V13.


There are also close relatives from Romania. But this Romanian might be of Hungarian origin because Cluj was full of Hungarians or he's a Cuman from there because Romania was full with Cumans. Additionally 2 haplotypes from Ploiesti area are likely related, near Ploiesti there are several toponyms of Dărmănești.


For Hungarians, I do not think that fact that the Hungarian authors consider Kuzmos a Cuman surname can be ignored nor that my close relatives from Karcag also seem to claim such descend. Some prominent Hungarian historians from that family wrote books on Cumans, even went on to study their language.


Even on a quick survey of let's say Ukrainian study from Lviv I can see that on a sample of 154 there are two haplotypes that are certainly Z17107* (Z38456-), one related from Ukrainian from the same region and second related to Schepak. That makes it 1.3 % in Lvov area. Among Serbs and Albanians percentage is 0.08 % and 0 % respectively. Because the population in the East is so much larger there might be more of Z17107* among Ukrainians, Russians than there are for example Z34856 Albanians.


I think Z17107* is Balkanic as much as I2-CTS12208 is Central-European or Germanic or less so because Z17107 has been present in th East before I2-CTS12208 if one goes by Bastarnae theory.


Actually there exists evidence that I would even go as far to call irrefutable that we are descendants ultimately of these Gelonians. I don't think they were Greek, but Cimmerian, as does every archaeological authority on them such as Schramko. Works both ways genetically, there are Z34856 in Asia Minor Greeks but there are also some very isolated clades of Z17107* in the East. Most people knowing what I know (which is alot more than you on such topics :) ) would have come to the same conclusion.
Which might be good for my distant cousins from Dibrri clan, I'm sure they'd prefer to descend from Thraco-Illyrians rather than Greeks.:) Cimmerians were intermingled with Thracians that is why the whole archaeological complex is often called "Thraco-Cimmerian", but there were also Illyrian-like influences, so I'm not excluding anything for Z17107.
I think the realistic TMRCA for Z17107 is 3000 ypb or close to that.


Gelonians were subsequently Royal Scythians and around 400 BC one of "lesser kings" of Scythia was a Gelonian. If you think I will go down from Royal Scythians or my ancestors standing at the side of our glorious ruler Kubrat for "Balkans" I won't. I think in these "internet circles" there is hardly anybody who would exchange Royal Scythians for anything in the Balkans. :)


Essentially you posted 5-6 shorter senctences, I responded to you by tenfolds in a substantiated manner, because I want others to read it as well. If I ever am proven wrong so be it, but I don't think I will because for the past year the more information that I have gathered the more I was convinced of being correct.


Actually my explanation of our surname is a combination of Ray+Kun or Qun which is also how Cumans called themselves. Because in Plovdiv area there is clear evidence that "Kun" was participating as a part in a compound name (Raykun + Kunbek). In Russia there is such surname Raykun, who knows, might have something to do with it.

Also not to forget that immediately West of Bijelo Polje there is a village Kunovača. Our clan's area was always the area West of Bijelo Polje that is called "Komaran", not the Bihor (East of BP) itself. Also there is a second village Rakonjska deep in Komaran area, our family was expelled from there 200 years ago during the times of First Serbian Uprising. And also the Peshter now I know is fundamentally connected to us. Actually a known Romanian historian Andrei Oțetea claimed that etymologically this Komaran area West of Bijelo Polje had Cuman origins, but I think that is more speculative.

Aspurg
17-05-18, 01:23
What are the chances. I was going through High Albania by Edith Durham for the archeology thread completely unrelated to our discussion
here (about Ev13 and which tribes they are attached to) and what shows up? Montenegro specifically. Here is Edith Durham and what she notes:

"Vasojevich.—Is since the Treaty of Berlin half Montenegrin and half under Turkey. Is all Orthodox and Serbophone. It is noteworthy that in theMontenegrin part many Albanian proper names occur with Serb terminations,e.g., Dedich and Dedovich. Ded = Domenic in Albania.

Other Montenegrin tribes consanguineous with Albanian ones :

Bijelo Pavlich.—One of the largest Montenegrin tribes, also joined Montenegroin 1790. It traces origin from Bijelo Pavlo (White Paul), one of the Dukaghins of Mirdita, known in Mirdita as Pal i bardh. The tribe is all Orthodox and Serbophone.

Kuchi.—Kuchi has been included in Montenegro since 1877. It fought on the Montenegrin side in the last war. One of its hariaka, Drekalovich,traces direct descent from Berisha in Albania. It is now, I believe, all Serbophone."

**edited for mistake**


I spoke already about Kuchi on poreklo. IMO Kuchi likely did speak Albanian originally.

In 1485 census, a large amount of Albanian names was recorded in Kuchi area. There were 3 populations:
1. few villages with totally Slavic names (likely some R1a M458 and maybe some others who descend from Kuchi)
2. villages with largely Albanian names such as Bankeq.
Bonkeq are also the same E-Z16661 clade as Ortodox Kuchi, but it is obvious that Bonkeqi spoke Albanian in 1485.
3. Largest village Pantalesh had a mixture of Albanian/Serbian names and they represent a population that was partly or fully slavicised. Those are Kuchi who are mentioned in 1455 documents as being Orthodox. Village name Pantalesh stands for their ancestor Panta, who is the ancestor of Mrnjavčići, but based on census data it was likely his father was Lesh.

In the next census in 1497 it can be seen that the population of albanophone villages increased significantly. As their villages were small in 1485, possibly catholic Albanian Kuchi started migrating there only later in 15th century, so after Ortodox Kuchi.

First mention of Kuč was a Petar Kuč in the catun of Lesh Tuz in 1330. Also these surnames were already back then in circulation as clan names. In Turkish census of 1485, personal names like Kuč, Bushat only occur as names of fathers not as the names of individuals, which means they were tribal designations.
But slavic traces in Kuchi might date earlier in history. In the Venetian census of Shkodra from 1416, in the village Kuchi some Nenad is mentioned. Traditions of Kuchi usually list certain Nenad as one of their most distant ancestors.

And the name of the village Pantalesh brings me to Bjelopavlichi, this is a typically Albanian way of surname creation where two ancestors are connected: for ex. Nikmarash, Lulgjuraj etc. And it does seem to correspond to one of common Albanian combinations Pal Bardhi. Also Bjelopavlichi claimed always to descend "from Dukagjin", and usually Serb families wouldn't use Dukagjin as a term.
They are Z16988 however they are not closely related to Kelmendi, and I heard one of them ordered Y500 so we will know more on that. Bjelopavlici are mentioned in mid 15th century. In 1485 they only had few Albanian names.

I don't think anybody should be ashamed if their ancestor spoke Albanian 600 years ago or vice versa.

Actually there was recently discussion about Piperi. In 1485 in Piperi area only a handful of names were Albanian. Part of old Piperi are R-BY611, and also names such as Pipa, Biba, even Piper were common in Albanian areas in Ottoman defters. And I think I saw tendencies of some of them to minimize any such connection as there is opposite among Albanians who are R1a or I2a..

Zanatis
17-05-18, 02:00
I don't say this very often but it's been a pleasure talking to you about this. I share the same subclade as those Dibrri you mentioned and my origins are from Montenegro.

So far your reasoning makes complete sense although things might slightly change in the future if we have more Albanians testing and especially BigY.

That won't change the area where your subclades originates but it might increase the possibility that it could have arrived earlier. For now I'll take your word for it.

Interestingly enough, few km from my ancestors' village in North Albania there's Koman, Koman Lake, but also a 6th century Koman Culture similar to the ones in Dalmatia and ex-Illyricum. Any idea what could be the origin of such a name? As for Kumanovo in Macedonia it's already known.

Aspurg
17-05-18, 18:49
I don't say this very often but it's been a pleasure talking to you about this. I share the same subclade as those Dibrri you mentioned and my origins are from Montenegro.

Thank you, good to meet you, I was wondering if there were some Z38456 around. I have been reading something about Dibrri, in one source I read they were "mixed with Tosks", but this clade actually is common in both Ghegs and Tosks, You can see that in Arberesh study where there are samples from both, as few Tosks are atm tested on your project.



So far your reasoning makes complete sense although things might slightly change in the future if we have more Albanians testing and especially BigY.

That won't change the area where your subclades originates but it might increase the possibility that it could have arrived earlier. For now I'll take your word for it.

No, of course we have certainly connection to other CTS9320 which is among most expansive among V13's and I look forward to explore that as well. You can take my word (alongside many things I presented) because this evidence I speak of is just "insanely strong", and actually much stronger as a direct evidence than anything for example one could currently muster for the origin of Slavic I2-CTS10228.

Not to forget the clade Z38456>BY4435 which doesn't share 20 SNP's with you. Swedes and a Tatar Kamalov is very likely to be connected to them (Kamalov is I would say 100 % Z38456, but he surely is very distant from Balkan BY4461). So even this clade might not easily be recently Balkanic. And I would argue we had recently first Ancient DNA find from either this or some Z17107* in Russia 900 years ago. But I might open a topic about it, this is waay off topic already.:)



Interestingly enough, few km from my ancestors' village in North Albania there's Koman, Koman Lake, but also a 6th century Koman Culture similar to the ones in Dalmatia and ex-Illyricum. Any idea what could be the origin of such a name? As for Kumanovo in Macedonia it's already known.

I noticed that, actually in Turkish defers it can be seen that certain Albanian populations had few Cuman names here and there. As for those toponyms they might have such origin or not, however in Macedonia, there was a large amount of personal names of Cuman origin, especially in Moglen area. Moglen Vlachs are already hypothesized by many to have strong Pecheneg and subsequently Cuman influences, one haplotype that is certainly related to me from Grevena area might be connected to them, Moglen Vlachs were never studied genetically thus far. Cuman Proniars were in Byzantine service in those area already in 12th century.

Actually when I think of it there was a Kipchak clan with the name of "Berish" but I think that's just a coincidence. I do not think such origin is possible for the Berisha clade.

But few times in some areas I noticed few Cuman names among Albanian populations. I will give you a fine example:
In Ottoman defter of 1571 in the Albanian village Bradotin there was a land called Drman, also two inhabitants were Nina and Boja sons of Shishman from the village Shishman, which also exists today West of Djakovo. :)

Aspurg
17-05-18, 19:34
Interesting thought there by no doubt should be Cuman lineages among Balkan people mostly Bulgaria,Serbia and Hungary as they were employed like soldiers many of whom reached even noble rank,many places names trough the Balkan has their name,about genetics this has maybe yet to be determined even I admire your deep research. For myself I could get back to my paternal ancestry gathered from relatives that they were living in Orahovac in Kosovo from where after the Austro-Turkish war 1778-1791 migrated in the mountains that are on present border between Serbia,Macedonia and Bulgaria from where I have more detailed information about my ancestors.There was Ottoman retaliation after the war and many fled to mountains or outside the Ottoman empire.

Interesting, I thought you might be Guja because of your knowledge of some Steppe populations. Guess not.:) Well it is often very difficult to search for ancestry in documents especially in areas where surnames were not common. My surname is at least 400 years old (and it's base is older), so really I never had to research to verify more recent origins, and testing of different branches of my family proved close connection.

About our branch, well I mentioned these, also Z34856>BY4435 as I mentioned seems present in Tatars, and a Pomak from Buglaria might be connected to him. Also a Yashlaw-Nughay Crimean Tatar is E-V13 and he only tested low number of markers but I see he has GATAH4=12, every V13 with that value is suspect Z17107, because this value is most common among Z17107 of all V13 clades by far.

I would say that R1b M73 certainly is heavily involved with ethnogenesis of Cumans, it is present at almost 40 % in a Turkic people of a peculiar name: Kumandin. Found in Crimean Tatars, Karachay-Balkars etc. In Hungary I saw only once such haplotype thus far from an anonymous study. Also several R1a-Z93 clades seem involved. This is often hard to determine because Cumans were Kipchaks but Tatars were also largely Kipchaks but they came later with the Mongols.
Cumans were a large confederation, it also seems likely Karachay I2a Din cluster arrived there with Cumans, though originally likely is Slavic. Also among Crimean Tatars D-PH116 was found etc.

One would expect among Macedonians/Bulgarians such candidates and they exist. I have been working on a map of Cuman names on the Balkans from the Ottoman defters, and I can already see some areas have greater concentration of such names/toponyms, such as Moglen, Sofia, Tarnovo, Plovdiv etc. And that usually goes in hand with archaeological evidence.

Garrick
19-05-18, 00:56
The Z38456 is a subcalde of Z17107. According to YSEQ: Z17107 TMRCA lived 2600 ybp, in the Iron Age. Thereafter the Z17107 divided into several subgroups, and only one of them is the Z38456 (although the most populous one) All of the known Z38456 members live in the Balkan (except the two swedish), but the other members of the Z17107 is completely missing from the Balkans. At this time we know (FtDNA): 2 Smith from the USA (irish or english), a russian the eastern coast of the Black Sea and two hungarian. And who are not the members of the CTS9320 group in the FTDNA:
Mineev from Russia
Gogua from Georgia
Senetar from US (ruthenian origin from old Hungary)
Pereira from Brasil (portugalian origin)
2 other unnamed ukrainian (from Dobromil and Lvov region)
Gyorffy from Hungary
Rakonjac from Bosnia (but he has cuman roots, not Balkanian origin)

So no one from the Z38456 parent group (Z17107) has a Balkanic origin. So I think, the Z17107 is formed more northward during the Iron Age (the pre-scythian or cimmerian period) and only one of these subgroups move to the Balkan (Z38456)

Very interesting about your haplogroup.

If you search common ancestor in Balkans, diversity in E-V13 is the largest in Bulgaria.

Bulgaria and Hungary had long border in 9th century, and Pechenegs were in the east, later in 12th century Cumans (related with Pechenegs) came.

Theoretically you can have common ancestors connected with Bulgarians, Z17107 is found in Bulgaria but you are negative the Z38456 (but it is not impossible that a new finding in Bulgaria be more similar to yours).

Probably it is north from Balkans.

But you can really be native, if this term is appropriate.

In Pannonia E-V13 population lived very long, and much before Iron Age.

You can be descent of someone of Pannonian E-V13 bearer.

R-U152 mixed with E-V13 moving west among other in Pannonia.

Hallstatt culture emerged much later and it is logicall what Maciamo says that Hallstat people were bearers of E-V13 haplogroup.

Maybe you can be descent of these people.

kuzmosi
20-05-18, 17:42
Dear Garrick!

Thank you for the answer. Although offtopic still belongs to this. I have a archeo-anthropological book from 2009. Thiy includes a study, (from Szathmáry László-Lenkey Zsuzsanna-Csóri Zsuzsanna-Holló Gábor)a craniological study, which analyzes 4000 skulls from eastern part of the hungarian lowland (alföld), east from Tisza river, between I.-XI. century After Christ.

I takes 7 periods:
1.Sarmatian Age (1-350 AC) 67 man, 73 woman
2. Temporary Age (350-480 AC) 112 man, 71 woman
3. Germanic Age (480-560 AC) 225 man, 193 woman
4. Early Avaric Age (560-670) 93 man, 77 woman
5. Late Avaric Age (670-890) 948 man 851 woman
6. Hungarian Principality Age (890-990) 352 man 268 woman
7. Early Hungarian Kingdom Age (990-1100) 394 man 302 woman

The basis of the craniological features of the Sarmatian Era. (100%)

From the skulls of the Temporary Age 82 % was new cranioligical features, but 18% of the skulls carries features of the Sarmatian Age.

From the skulls of the Germanic Age (gepids) 67% was new, but 16% of the skulls carries features of the Sarmatian Age and another 16 % carries features of the Temporary Age

Early Avaric Age: 70,3% new, 9,7% from Sarmatian Age, 10,4% from Temporary Age, 9,5% from Germanic Age

Late Avaric Age: 33,2% new (onogur bolgars!!!), 25,1% from Early Avaric, 14,7% from germanic, 11,4% from temporary age, 12,8% from Sarmatian Age

Early Hungarian Age: 42,6% new (magyars), 6,6% late avaric, 8,2% early avaric, 10,2% germanic, 17,2% temporary age, 15% sarmatian

XI. century: 36% new features, 10,9% early magyars, 3,1% late avaric, 9% early avaric, 15,7% germanic, 12% temporary age, 16,2% sarmatian.

The period before the Sarmatian Age in the northern Alföld was the Celtic Age. Celtic tribes (Osii, Cotini, Anartii, Taurisci) came from the west, and mixed from the local scythian age population (sigynnae, agathursi).When the sarmatians arrived, mixed with the local celtic/scythian population. In the early sarmatian cemetaries sarmatian and celtic burials were also present.

According to the above study, the population of the Sarmatian Age of the I. century AC, was still demonstrated 1000 years later, the XI. century. (16,2%) This is the basic population of the East Alföld, which is certainly present to some extent in today's population as well. So it means a little Celtic legacy. And here come the genetics. My Beres ancestors (R1b-U152-S8172) and according to Maciamo: my EV13-Z17107-Y81971 results.

Maybe it might be interesting, I managed to find all the straight male line descendants of all my 8 great-great-grandfathers. They all lived in this region, since I have written information about them (1690-1800) The results are:

EV13-Z17107-Y81971 (Kuzmos)
R1b-U106-S22069 (Dobi)
R1b-U152-S8172 (Beres)
I2a-M423-A1328 (Toth)
R1a-M458-YP415 (Kalenyak)
I2a-M423-Y3118 (Kiss)
R1a-L664-S2866 (Simon)
I1-L22-FGC14412 (Szilagyi)

I think, not only the celtic heritage is alives in my genes, but the tribes of the germanic age (I1, R1a-L664, R1b-U106) and my slavic and proto-slavic ancestors.

Few weeks ago, I found two male descendants of my distant branches:

Petruska family (R1a-Z280-Y33 still in progress)
Csehely family (no results at this time)

I think in my region and my past was a strong slav presence.

It would be nice for more people to spend time and money on such research. We would know much more about the past of each area.

kuzmosi
16-06-18, 16:24
I think that the spread of CTS9320 is tied to the people living on the Pontic steppe before the scythians. According to Herodotus from 1200 BC to 800 BC the rulers of the steppe From the Carpathians to the Caucasus were the cimmerians. A CTS9320 last common ancestor lived 1000 BC among them. When the scythians attacked the cimmerians, most of them crossed the Caucasus and melted with the endless fight against the assyrians, lydians and phrygians. But I think our CTS9320 ancestor moved west, crossed the Carpathians (Mezőcsát culture in Hungary) and more west (Hallstatt culture) and south (Thracians) https://www.google.com/search?q=cimmerians&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=w0k1RcPbKgUe0M%253A%252CglX2jJS4OR3YfM%252C_&usg=__eDWDZgP7EvZyCiiCDrhvLRkl93w%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj80oKEqNjbAhXQZ1AKHTDSAy8Q9QEIOjAC#imgr c=w0k1RcPbKgUe0M: I found this study today:
Anthropological outline of the Pre-Scythian Mezőcsát culture and its new finds from the Ludas-Varjú dűlő site Anthropologiai Közlemények 49 (2008), 35–42. K. Zoffmann Zsuzsanna Budapest
Abstract: Fourteen finds from the early Iron Age (Pre-Scythian) Mezőcsát culture was recovered at the site. The series fragment was not suitable for a demographic analysis and there was only a limited opportunity for pathologic observations because of the fragmented nature of the bones. The only find that could taxonomically be evaluated was very robust and reminded of the Cro-Magnonid-Nordic variant characteristic of the Eastern European region. The results of the Penrose analyses showed significant similarities between the Pre-Scythians of the Carpathian Basin and the Iron Age population of Greece, the Scythian population of Bessarabia and the Hallstatt population groups of Central Europe. Accordingly, the local population played only a minor role in the formation of the Pre-Scythian Mezőcsát culture
So I think there is a strong genetic link between the cimmerians, the thracians and a part of the Hallstatt celts. Maciamo may be right. Some of the CTS9320 subclades is celtic probably, but earlier were cimmerians and closely related with the Balkan's Iron Age population. This will explain for example how can the Z17107 ancestor (lived 600 BC) has a direct male descendant in present day from Ireland (Smith, Johnson, Anderson); Russia (Schepak, Mineev, Kamulov); Ukraina (Feduska); Georgia (Gogua); Hungary (Küzmös, Szinetar) Montenegro (Rakonjac) - all of them Z17107+ but Z38456 -. and Sweden (Eriksson, Engelin), Croatia (Lakic, Radelic); Bulgaria (Iordanov, Boyadjiev) Greece (Tzokos, Gülveren) Albania (Paloka, Draguja, Nikolla, Shkalla) Macedonia (Adili, Georgiovski, Nikodin); Sicily (LoBello, Maksuti, Aleci) all of them Z17107+ and Z38456+ too.

kuzmosi
16-06-18, 16:28
Sorry, the paragraphs have disappeared. I thought so:

I think that the spread of CTS9320 is tied to the people living on the Pontic steppe before the scythians. According to Herodotus from 1200 BC to 800 BC the rulers of the steppe From the Carpathians to the Caucasus were the cimmerians. A CTS9320 last common ancestor lived 1000 BC among them. When the scythians attacked the cimmerians, most of them crossed the Caucasus and melted with the endless fight against the assyrians, lydians and phrygians.But I think our CTS9320 ancestor moved west, crossed the Carpathians (Mezőcsát culture in Hungary) and more west (Hallstatt culture) and south (Thracians)

https://www.google.com/search?q=cimmerians&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir= w0k1RcPbKgUe0M%253A%252CglX2jJS4OR3YfM%252C_&usg=_ _eDWDZgP7EvZyCiiCDrhvLRkl93w%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8 0oKEqNjbAhXQZ1AKHTDSAy8Q9QEIOjAC#imgrc=w0k1RcPbKgU e0M:

I found this study today:

Anthropological outline of the Pre-Scythian Mezőcsát culture and its new finds from the Ludas-Varjú dűlő site Anthropologiai Közlemények 49 (2008), 35–42. K. Zoffmann Zsuzsanna Budapest
Abstract: Fourteen finds from the early Iron Age (Pre-Scythian) Mezőcsát culture was recovered at the site. The series fragment was not suitable for a demographic analysis and there was only a limited opportunity for pathologic observations because of the fragmented nature of the bones. The only find that could taxonomically be evaluated was very robust and reminded of the Cro-Magnonid-Nordic variant characteristic of the Eastern European region. The results of the Penrose analyses showed significant similarities between the Pre-Scythians of the Carpathian Basin and the Iron Age population of Greece, the Scythian population of Bessarabia and the Hallstatt population groups of Central Europe. Accordingly, the local population played only a minor role in the formation of the Pre-Scythian Mezőcsát culture.

So I think there is a strong genetic link between the cimmerians, the thracians and a part of the Hallstatt celts. Maciamo may be right. Some of the CTS9320 subclades is celtic probably, but earlier were cimmerians and closely related with the Balkan's Iron Age population. This will explain for example how can the Z17107 ancestor (lived 600 BC) has a direct male descendant in present day from Ireland (Smith, Johnson, Anderson); Russia (Schepak, Mineev, Kamulov); Ukraina (Feduska); Georgia (Gogua); Hungary (Küzmös, Szinetar) Montenegro (Rakonjac) - all of them Z17107+ but Z38456 -. and Sweden (Eriksson, Engelin), Croatia (Lakic, Radelic); Bulgaria (Iordanov, Boyadjiev) Greece (Tzokos, Gülveren) Albania (Paloka, Draguja, Nikolla, Shkalla) Macedonia (Adili, Georgiovski, Nikodin); Sicily (LoBello, Maksuti, Aleci) all of them Z17107+ and Z38456+ too.

EdonMrnjavčević
05-11-18, 09:11
Blackmailing and trying to let down one's haplogroup's archeological history based on your fantasies is very unprofessional and racist. I am no member of E-V13 but I won't tolerate any discrimination of these european haplogroups. Only 25% of your ancestry is based on your father's side; the rest 75% is mtDNAs' y-fathers: your father's mother's father(Y), your mother's father(Y) and your mother's mother's father(Y). That being said, you as other europeans, have a very high chance of having thousands of E-V13 carriers in your total lineages. Same with for example let's say G2a. You seem to be irritated by irish and saudis; maybe both of them ****** your wife while you were working overtime in order to pay your wife's shitty Opel? You should read Maciamo's full post about E-V13; all the clades out of Europe are very recent and not ancient at all. Greeks and romans ****** tens of thousands of local women in Northern Africa and in Middle East. Why don't you publish your Y-DNA so I could do some research on it and connect it with slaves who were brought from Africa. You claim to be white, yet you live in a country that's known for having white races who share common ancestries with western africans and south americans. Think before you write bullshit, you might get your teeth broken in real life.

Xisco
26-11-18, 20:52
Greetings to all the members. My name is Xisco, I'm from the island of Mallorca. My Haplogroup is E-Y33577. I am negative in E-FGC11450 the majority group of branch E-FGC11457. I share subclade E-BY4914 with a person from Plovdiv Bulgaria. I am investigating the origin of my branch, until now I am anchored in Central Macedonia in the TMRCA 2700 ybp.

Lenab
26-11-18, 22:14
Greetings to all the members. My name is Xisco, I'm from the island of Mallorca. My Haplogroup is E-Y33577. I am negative in E-FGC11450 the majority group of branch E-FGC11457. I share subclade E-BY4914 with a person from Plovdiv Bulgaria. I am investigating the origin of my branch, until now I am anchored in Central Macedonia in the TMRCA 2700 ybp.

What is your known ancestry Balkan Slavic? Makes sense as E3b is Neolithic highest in Albania and Montenegro

Xisco
26-11-18, 22:31
Me gustara saber cmo lleg mi E-V13 a Mallorca. Se necesitan ms muestras de esta rea para indicar el origen con SNPs ms recientes. Hasta el momento solo se han encontrado 4 muestras de E-FGC11457 en Espaa, tres en la isla de Mallorca y una en Aragn. La nica referencia que tenemos ms cerca de fuera de Mallorca es Macedonia central cerca de Tesalnica.

Xisco
26-11-18, 22:33
I would like to know how my E-V13 arrived in Mallorca. More samples from this area are needed to indicate the origin with more recent SNPs. So far only 4 samples of E-FGC11457 have been found in Spain, three on the island of Mallorca and one in Aragn. The only reference we have closest to outside Majorca is Central Macedonia near Thessaloniki.

Lenab
26-11-18, 22:43
I would like to know how my E-V13 arrived in Mallorca. More samples from this area are needed to indicate the origin with more recent SNPs. So far only 4 samples of E-FGC11457 have been found in Spain, three on the island of Mallorca and one in Arag�n. The only reference we have closest to outside Majorca is Central Macedonia near Thessaloniki.
Exactly that E3b is very Balkan, actually for Spanish men this is rare but anything is possible.

Lenab
26-11-18, 22:49
Me gustar�a saber c�mo lleg� mi E-V13 a Mallorca. Se necesitan m�s muestras de esta �rea para indicar el origen con SNPs m�s recientes. Hasta el momento solo se han encontrado 4 muestras de E-FGC11457 en Espa�a, tres en la isla de Mallorca y una en Arag�n. La �nica referencia que tenemos m�s cerca de fuera de Mallorca es Macedonia central cerca de Tesal�nica.

Podría ser cualquier cosa balcánica, no solo griega, incluso si está conectada al Neolítico o, al menos, al Mediterráneo oriental.
Debe preguntar a su familia y mirar los archivos del gobierno si tienen ese tipo de información.

Xisco
26-11-18, 22:56
Maciamo may be able to give a better opinion about the origin.

Xisco
26-11-18, 22:59
My paternal lineage is from the year 1400 known on the island, beyond is unknown.

Lenab
26-11-18, 23:06
Maciamo may be able to give a better opinion about the origin.
But yes but the information is on this website there is a whole section dedicated to haplogroups

Tutkun Arnaut
26-11-18, 23:46
I would like to know how my E-V13 arrived in Mallorca. More samples from this area are needed to indicate the origin with more recent SNPs. So far only 4 samples of E-FGC11457 have been found in Spain, three on the island of Mallorca and one in Arag�n. The only reference we have closest to outside Majorca is Central Macedonia near Thessaloniki.

According to Macciamo E3b (Or at least some of E3b) and J2b2 is part of indoeuropean expansion! IndoEuropeans were not strictly R, before the expansion they had absorbed other haplogroups as well. Lack of African haplo L in countries with E3b majority shows, that they were marring strictly white women, contrary to the perception that east Africa was the birthplace of E, and so small amounts of African L was expected.
So about your E3b could be result of indoeuropean expansion.

Xisco
27-11-18, 00:05
I'm in the branch E-FGC11457 that has been making more samples of BigY and take the BAM to YFull, is growing in this last month. New branches have been created that are separated from E-FGC11450, which is the most extensive and the two negative branches in this SNP, such as mine E-BY4914 (Bulgaria and Spain) and the other negative branch in E- FGC11450 subclade E-Y84857 (Sweden and Finland). All E-FGC11457 are in a TMRCA of 3200 and bp. What differentiates us is that mine seems to be separating at that point and my line is in the south of the Balkans. When we have more samples we can assess the origin. The E-V13 is a Haplogroup that we still have a lot to learn.

Xisco
27-11-18, 00:45
According to YFull the TMRCA of E-BY4914 is 2700 ybp. This SNP emerged from a sample of Litov (Central Macedonia) and a sample from Sencelles, Mallorca. That they gave the creation of three new SNPs: BY4914 * FGC12781 * ZS7594.

Lenab
27-11-18, 00:53
According to Macciamo E3b (Or at least some of E3b) and J2b2 is part of indoeuropean expansion! IndoEuropeans were not strictly R, before the expansion they had absorbed other haplogroups as well. Lack of African haplo L in countries with E3b majority shows, that they were marring strictly white women, contrary to the perception that east Africa was the birthplace of E, and so small amounts of African L was expected.
So about your E3b could be result of indoeuropean expansion.
It's apart of a pre historic Indo European expansion it crossed through North Africa because the coast of North Africa had PIES inhabiting it in the Red Sea.

Lenab
27-11-18, 00:54
According to YFull the TMRCA of E-BY4914 is 2700 ybp. This SNP emerged from a sample of Litov�� (Central Macedonia) and a sample from Sencelles, Mallorca. That they gave the creation of three new SNPs: BY4914 * FGC12781 * ZS7594.
Illyrian/Thracian males. Maybe your family were Thracian who settled in Spain during Hispania :D

Xisco
27-11-18, 01:00
In the line of Mallorca has advanced and has created a subclade of E-BY4914 the E-Y33577 with 16 SNPs in this Terminal SNP. And the line E-BY4914 * of Plovdiv of Bulgaria (that its ancestor is the one of Litovoi Central Macedonia), has remained with asterico that means that there is not enough information at the moment to create a new subclade.

Xisco
27-11-18, 01:02
It could be Thracian, who knows.

Xisco
27-11-18, 01:09
https://scontent.fmad7-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/46390583_2009635265780211_2460980285961928704_o.jp g?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent.fmad7-1.fna&oh=29025870595c9ab965c6489acce2b519&oe=5C768F27[CITA = Lenab; 558905] Varones ilirios / tracios. Tal vez su familia fuera Tracia que se estableci en Espaa durante Hispania :D[/ QUOTE]

The branch E-FGC11457 and its subclades of YFull. I made a separation of the subclades of the tree so that it looks better.

Lenab
27-11-18, 01:23
That's probably it you're probably just the descendant of some Roman soldier who found his way into Spain and never left...Possibly maybe, not saying for sure that's what it is but it may be a possibility.

Lenab
27-11-18, 01:25
My Father also had a E3b Illyrian Thracian haplogroup from Roman elite who stayed in the UK he is British

Xisco
27-11-18, 16:44
It could have been by Fifth Cecilio Metelo Balerico (in Latin, Quintus Caecilius Q. f.Q.n. Metellus Balearicus) was a politician and military of the Roman Republic, eldest son of Fifth Cecilio Macedonian Metellus. He founded the cities of Palma and Pollentia, the latter as capital, and populated them with a colony of 3000 Romans and Iberians.

Xisco
27-11-18, 17:30
What is the Haplogroup of your father?.

Xisco
28-11-18, 17:42
10502

Greek positive samples begin to enter the E-FGC11457 branch in FTDNA. At this time there are three positive samples. Three positives from France are also entering the E-FGC11457 branch.

Xisco
28-11-18, 19:15
There are 159 positive samples in SNP E-FGC11457 in FTDNA. There are 79 samples of unknown origin and the rest that are 80 samples is in this list. Not everyone has the BigY test to have a more updated branch as it happens with YFull of those that transfer the BAM file to YFull. Not all do it. Others have made the E-V13 Pack and others have only made the SNP test or have passed the files to FTDNA from another company.

Lenab
28-11-18, 19:18
What is the Haplogroup of your father?.
It's I-S24 Saxon he is a English person of North German genetics however distantly he has some Roman, Balkan and even Anatolian I did a haplogroup genetic test as well as several autosomal ones

mihaitzateo
28-11-18, 19:25
If you look at the map of E-V13 it looks that is more of it in Ukraine but less in Russia.
So if it would have come with people from the steppes, why this happens?

Also, see a high concentration in Greece, near the shores of the sea.
As for E-V13 from Kosovo, maybe some event determined the E-V13 carriers to flee to the refuge of the mountains - the time coincide really well with the spread of Goths, Ostrogoths, Visigoths.
My supposition is that E-V13 came in Greece and in current lands of Albania, by boat.
A whole ethnicity came there by boats.
And it came from somewhere East Wards, not from North Africa, but from the shores of Black Sea or even from other Eastern Sea.
And I do not agree that these people were mostly early farmers, because if they would have been early farmers, why there is so much E-V13 in the mountains of Kosovo?

Regarding the question of Maciamo , with E-V13 and Hallstat Celts, possibly, because Hallstat Celts should have assimilated people they found in the area, as they came from East to Europe.But it seems that the Hallstat Celts came from somewhere more Central Asia while E-V13 seems to have come from somewhere more southwards of Central Asia.
A simple thing to investigate if E-V13 came from Central Asia or North Africa, is to see if Albanians and Greeks have lots of traditions related to the raising of the cows - but they do not have. They have traditions related to the raising of sheep.
Both people that came from Central Asia and the people that came from North Africa have strong traditions related to the raising of the cows.

Xisco
29-11-18, 15:08
In the new FTDNA tab of matches Big Y-500 STR Differences Genetic Distance 0 to 1, this is the map of my results:

10522

Xisco
29-11-18, 15:13
All my STRs matches belong to Haplogroup E-V13. My closest SNP matches as my closest STR matches are in Bulgaria.

mihaitzateo
29-11-18, 16:35
I found out somehow that Greeks got high intolerance to cow milk. But they are very tolerant to sheep milk lactose.
So, if E-V13 was a major paternal line in Hallstat Celts, it was by assimilation of already existing people, by the Celts.
Hallstat Celts and cow milk intolerance is not such a plausible hypothesis.
Would be really interesting to see different clades of E-V13 from Greece and Austria.

Archetype0ne
22-01-19, 01:40
My paternal lineage is from the year 1400 known on the island, beyond is unknown.

Take this with a grain of salt, only as a speculation avenue. But as far as I know Aragon had vassalage over Naples, which had "vassalage" (this is a whole other discussion) over Skenderbegs Albania. Skenderbeg himself had campaigns in Naples with some 2-3k men around 1440's. One of these people could belong to your family tree, alternatively part of Arberesh in Italy are also E-V13.

Trivia: At the time Albanian Stratioti were employed as "long term" Mercenaries by England to patrol the Scottish highlands, since they were specialized in hit and run tactics akin to the ones the Scotts used to harass the frontier, as opposed to western heavy knights.

Aspar
22-01-19, 11:15
Take this with a grain of salt, only as a speculation avenue. But as far as I know Aragon had vassalage over Naples, which had "vassalage" (this is a whole other discussion) over Skenderbegs Albania. Skenderbeg himself had campaigns in Naples with some 2-3k men around 1440's. One of these people could belong to your family tree, alternatively part of Arberesh in Italy are also E-V13.

Trivia: At the time Albanian Stratioti were employed as "long term" Mercenaries by England to patrol the Scottish highlands, since they were specialized in hit and run tactics akin to the ones the Scotts used to harass the frontier, as opposed to western heavy knights.

Why would Xisco be related to Albanian Stratioti or Albanians in general when he himself said that his closest STR and SNP matches are from Bulgaria!
Furthermore, his terminal SNP on the YFULL tree is E-Y33577, which is downstream of E-BY4914, TMRCA of 2700 ybp, SNP that the Spaniards share with a Bulgarian!
I've looked in many dna projects but so far, I can't find any Albanian that belongs to E-BY4914!
I've searched a little bit and it seems that this Bulgarian is with origin from Greek Macedonia!
However, I can't find no Greeks either under E-BY4914!
It seems that many Greeks and Albanians belong to the SNP defined as E-FGC11450, TMRCA 3200 ybp, downstream of E-FGC11457, TMRCA 3200 ybp, which is SNP upstream of E-BY4914!
E-BY4914 seems to have an Eastern/Central distribution in the Balkans and might indicate Thracian/Paeonian legacy!
Since Xisco pointed out that he is from the Balearic islands, and if we assume that his patrilineal linage is native there since the late antiquity, it could have arrived in the Balearic islands with Vandals, Romans, you name it!

From Wikipedia:

The Vandals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals) under Genseric (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genseric) conquered the Islands sometime between 461 and 468 during their war on the Roman Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire). However, in late 533 or early 534, following the Battle of Ad Decimum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ad_Decimum), the troops of Belisarius (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belisarius) reestablished control of the islands for the Byzantine Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire).

Archetype0ne
22-01-19, 16:34
Fortress of Svetigrad, Easter Albania, along Macedonian Border was held by Skanderbeg for a couple of years before being captured by the Ottomans. Area with a lot of Bulgarian toponyms incidentally, or coincidentally.Thracian... Bulgarian E-V13 could have been a local recruit in his Army, check Haplogroups for Debar Region, quite a lot of Aromanian and Bulgarian present IMO. A big part of Skanderbeg power base was along the Mat-Diber region along the Drin as it held specific geographic importance, when it came to assymetric warfare. PS: Skenderbeg even had Serbophone fighters in his armies from Montenegro in the League of Lezhe, so I would not even be surprised if R1A got to Catalonya through such route, let alone Thracian branch E-V13. Oh and there were also Bulgarian and Greek Stratioti... in fact the very cavalry unit developed in the southern Balkans, with influence from eastern lighter cavalry units.


Anyways, good thing you took my statement with a grain of salt...

Archetype0ne
22-01-19, 19:01
https://scontent.fmad7-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/46390583_2009635265780211_2460980285961928704_o.jp g?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent.fmad7-1.fna&oh=29025870595c9ab965c6489acce2b519&oe=5C768F27[CITA = Lenab; 558905] Varones ilirios / tracios. Tal vez su familia fuera Tracia que se estableci� en Espa�a durante Hispania :D[/ QUOTE]

The branch E-FGC11457 and its subclades of YFull. I made a separation of the subclades of the tree so that it looks better.

Just noticed this tree. And saw the branching of the BG and AL branches, both circa 3.2k BP, which further rises my suspicions mentioned above.

Aspurg
22-01-19, 20:01
Why would Xisco be related to Albanian Stratioti or Albanians in general when he himself said that his closest STR and SNP matches are from Bulgaria!
Furthermore, his terminal SNP on the YFULL tree is E-Y33577, which is downstream of E-BY4914, TMRCA of 2700 ybp, SNP that the Spaniards share with a Bulgarian!
I've looked in many dna projects but so far, I can't find any Albanian that belongs to E-BY4914!


It seems some Albanians like to "appropriate", or to "invent" recent Balkan/Albanian origin for just about any V13, this is not only wrong but actually offensive towards V13 including Albanian V13 because it would imply that V13 did not take part in warlike Bronze/Iron age movements which is ludicrous.

Reality is that Albanian V13's are usually younger clades, and percentage of V13 in Albanians is in big part a result of multiple founder effects, most elaborate example is the Berisha-Sopi cluster in Kosovo Albanians.

However in Bulgaria V13 is not only numerous but far more diverse when it comes to basal CTS5856 clades. V13 is more Proto-Thracian than anything else, then proto-Greek and Illyrian.

Now that FGC11451 clades are mentioned, Albanian FGC11450 have two main clusters, one of those has close matches with Bulgarian/Romanian (despite relatively few tested Romanians) and even might be a good candidate for Gotfried Schramm's Bessian origin, second has no relatives, it's most likely a LBA/EIA movement. Thrace has still more diversity of FGC11451 than Albania, no way these Bulgarian E-BY4914 have anything to do with Albanians. Generally as I've said V13 as a haplogrup is simply alot more Thracian than Illyrian albeit there are various Illyrian V13 clades. J-L283 on the other hand has very little do do with Thracians and related groups. Albanian J-L283's have nothing to do with Thracians and everything to do with Illyrians.

Archetype0ne
22-01-19, 20:45
It seems some Albanians like to "appropriate", or to "invent" recent Balkan/Albanian origin for just about any V13, this is not only wrong but actually offensive towards V13 including Albanian V13 because it would imply that V13 did not take part in warlike Bronze/Iron age movements which is ludicrous.

Reality is that Albanian V13's are usually younger clades, and percentage of V13 in Albanians is in big part a result of multiple founder effects, most elaborate example is the Berisha-Sopi cluster in Kosovo Albanians.

However in Bulgaria V13 is not only numerous but far more diverse when it comes to basal CTS5856 clades. V13 is more Proto-Thracian than anything else, then proto-Greek and Illyrian.

Now that FGC11451 clades are mentioned, Albanian FGC11450 have two main clusters, one of those has close matches with Bulgarian/Romanian (despite relatively few tested Romanians) and even might be a good candidate for Gotfried Schramm's Bessian origin, second has no relatives, it's most likely a LBA/EIA movement. Thrace has still more diversity of FGC11451 than Albania, no way these Bulgarian E-BY4914 have anything to do with Albanians. Generally as I've said V13 as a haplogrup is simply alot more Thracian than Illyrian albeit there are various Illyrian V13 clades. J-L283 on the other hand has very little do do with Thracians and related groups. Albanian J-L283's have nothing to do with Thracians and everything to do with Illyrians.

Hmm... I provided a tip based on the 1400's EU political landscape that I am aware of. Where did I say Xisco's ancestor was Albanian? I even went out of my way to specify E-V13 was present in the Macedonian frontier at the time. And also to specify that neither Stratioti neither E-V13 are unique to Albanians.

Ik Qihu.

Aspurg
22-01-19, 21:00
Hmm... I provided a tip based on the 1400's EU political landscape that I am aware of. Where did I say Xisco's ancestor was Albanian? I even went out of my way to specify E-V13 was present in the Macedonian frontier at the time. And also to specify that neither Stratioti neither E-V13 are unique to Albanians.

Ik Qihu.

Well you did mention possibility of his ancestor being one of those Skederbeg people.. It's not an issue nor something negative at all if one has Albanian origin but he should cluster with Albanians (also some other evidence such as documents etc helps). Like all of Greek E-FGC11450's cluster with Albanians and are of Arvanite origin.. Same goes for the vast majority of Greek R-Z2705 and E-BY4461, these clades are common and more diverse in Albanians. In the case of these Spaniards they cluster with someone in Thrace and not that closely either..

Archetype0ne
22-01-19, 21:15
Well you did mention possibility of his ancestor being of of those Skederbeg people.. It's not an issue nor something negative at all if one has Albanian origin but he should cluster with Albanians (also some other evidence such as documents etc helps). Like all of Greek E-FGC11450's cluster with Albanians and are of Arvanite origin.. Same goes for the vast majority of Greek R-Z2705 and E-BY4461, these clades are common and more diverse in Albanians. In the case of these Spaniards they cluster with someone in Thrace and not that closely either..

How would the genetic trail look like if some Thracian/Aromanian/Bulgaro-Slavic from Debar remained as a mercenary in Naples, and as such ended up in service in Aragon?

Yeah, that's what I thought...

Does this mean that my speculation is a fact? OFC not. But I put time in to raise it as a possibility for Xisco, and not for you to teach me how Albanins appropriate history. So miss me with your bullshit.

Aspar
23-01-19, 18:34
It seems some Albanians like to "appropriate", or to "invent" recent Balkan/Albanian origin for just about any V13, this is not only wrong but actually offensive towards V13 including Albanian V13 because it would imply that V13 did not take part in warlike Bronze/Iron age movements which is ludicrous.

Reality is that Albanian V13's are usually younger clades, and percentage of V13 in Albanians is in big part a result of multiple founder effects, most elaborate example is the Berisha-Sopi cluster in Kosovo Albanians.

However in Bulgaria V13 is not only numerous but far more diverse when it comes to basal CTS5856 clades. V13 is more Proto-Thracian than anything else, then proto-Greek and Illyrian.

Now that FGC11451 clades are mentioned, Albanian FGC11450 have two main clusters, one of those has close matches with Bulgarian/Romanian (despite relatively few tested Romanians) and even might be a good candidate for Gotfried Schramm's Bessian origin, second has no relatives, it's most likely a LBA/EIA movement. Thrace has still more diversity of FGC11451 than Albania, no way these Bulgarian E-BY4914 have anything to do with Albanians. Generally as I've said V13 as a haplogrup is simply alot more Thracian than Illyrian albeit there are various Illyrian V13 clades. J-L283 on the other hand has very little do do with Thracians and related groups. Albanian J-L283's have nothing to do with Thracians and everything to do with Illyrians.

It's not my intention to provoke and fight with other members here, neither to teach them as if I am some authority here.
All I am interested about is to engage in conversation about the history and the movement of the people through the history following the patterns of diversity and location of the y-dna markers!
That said I am mostly interested about the Balkan history and maybe a little bit biased towards E-V13 in general!
So I am glad to have a conversation with anyone here who has the same passion as me.

For E-V13, I personally think that it's entirely European marker that was formed in Europe!
Imo, it was it's father clade E-L618, that migrated to Europe through Anatolia.
It was in the Northern Balkans, possibly Moldavia and surroundings, when E-V13 was absorbed in the Indo-European population and had a sudden boom in numbers, splitting in multiple subclades!

Some older subclades like E-PH1246, were probably among the first that penetrated the Southern Balkans across the river Danube!
This subclade shows pattern of Western Balkan dispersion and could be linked with the earliest populations living in the Southern Balkans, Brygians maybe?
Could be and some could have been Mycenaean even!

But apart from this one, all other subclades show Northern Balkan dispersion and could have been late BA, EIA arrivals!
Other subclades, notably some of those under CTS9320, could have migrated into the Southern Balkans along the course of the IA and could have been very late arrivals!

Even looking at Greece and it's y-dna dispersion, we can see a pattern in which J2a and R1b are mostly found in the South, E1b in the middle and R1a and I2a in the North!
https://i.postimg.cc/WbpkB6D7/lJx60C5.png (https://postimages.org/)
That's like a geological picture, the same way the geologists look into the layers of the earth to unearth it's mysteries!
And many E1b in Southern Greece and the islands are not even E-V13 but some other clades like E-V22!

That being said, I think that the true BA Southern Balkan markers were R1b and J2a!
That Greeks today have a lot of E1b doesn't say much about the situation in the Southern Balkans during BA as they were not a closed group of people during their history as heirs of the Roman and than the Byzantine empire, and they did assimilate a lot of other people and let's not forget about many survivors of the Northern Balkans during the medieval period that found refuge in the Greek coastal cities!

Imo, some closed group of people like the Aromuns, is better suited for studying the situation of the Balkans south of Danube when it comes to y-dna!
They even show much more diversity in y-dna haplotypes, unlike the Albanians who as you said belong to younger subclades who show founder effect!

And the situation with the Aromuns is the following: E-V13 is not the most dominant haplogroup in them!
J2 is, followed by R1b, although we should split J2 to J2a and J2b!
However, regarding J2a and J2b there is a big difference in different Aromun communities that shows that even the Aromuns should not be looked upon as a homogeneous group but rather as a different Balkan communities(Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians), that came under the Latin umbrella!

I have read somewhere that the Gramostian Aromuns are the purest Aromuns in sense that they didn't even mix much with other groups of Aromuns and the Aromuns of Stip, Macedonia, are Gramostians by origin so they might be the best candidates for examining.

Imo, the Gramostian Aromuns could be very good candidates for some Balkan population living north of the Greeks, Paeonians, Thracians?
E-V13 is very strong in them, around 20 % I think, however their E-V13 is different than the one observed in the Albanians but show links with the one in Bulgaria, something that I have observed with my own subclade!
They lack I2a-Dinaric which confirms my suspicion that the earliest migrant of Slavs in the Balkans were not heavy in I2a but in R1a!
Some R1a could have been brought by Goths even!
I2a probably came with later arrivals!
For example, Ivan Mikulcic, the Macedonian-Slovenian archaeologist says that on the territory of Rep. of Macedonia up to the 9th century, could not be observed any Slavic settlements unlike in Greece!
It seems that those early Slavs somehow had bypassed the territory of Rep. of Macedonia and settled heavily in Greece!
The first Slavic artefacts and settlements are observed when the Bulgars conquered the territory of Rep. of Macedonia in the middle of the 9th century!

Therefore, E-V13 in the Balkans should be linked with some cultures like Urnfield culture, Gava culture, Bassarabi culture??
Rather than being linked specifically with the Thracians because we observe diversity of subclades among different populations, however it's urheimat is definitely North of river Danube!
This logic of mine also follows the pattern in which E-V13 is stronger in the Slavic speaking populations of the Balkans today than let's say R1b or J2, so I think that many South Slavic speaking people had came in the Balkans already rich in E-V13 that they perhaps could have absorbed it on the territory of modern Romania and Hungary, rather than acquiring the E-V13 with the assimilation of local people after they've settled south of the river Danube!

In that sense, I believe that the Slavic speaking people of the Balkans are mostly Slavic-Dacian/Pannonian mix!
In that sense also, many medieval historians were not wrong calling the Sclavinae of the Balkans as Getae!

So, E-V13 could have been the most dominant haplogroup among the Dacians and Pannonians, and as the line of divide between Illyrians and Thracians is very thin, perhaps is better to say that E-V13 is more Thraco-Illyrian than Greek marker!

Sile
23-01-19, 18:48
It's not my intention to provoke and fight with other members here, neither to teach them as if I am some authority here.
All I am interested about is to engage in conversation about the history and the movement of the people through the history following the patterns of diversity and location of the y-dna markers!
That said I am mostly interested about the Balkan history and maybe a little bit biased towards E-V13 in general!
So I am glad to have a conversation with anyone here who has the same passion as me.

For E-V13, I personally think that it's entirely European marker that was formed in Europe!
Imo, it was it's father clade E-L618, that migrated to Europe through Anatolia.
It was in the Northern Balkans, possibly Moldavia and surroundings, when E-V13 was absorbed in the Indo-European population and had a sudden boom in numbers, splitting in multiple subclades!

Some older subclades like E-PH1246, were probably among the first that penetrated the Southern Balkans across the river Danube!
This subclade shows pattern of Western Balkan dispersion and could be linked with the earliest populations living in the Southern Balkans, Brygians maybe?
Could be and some could have been Mycenaean even!

But apart from this one, all other subclades show Northern Balkan dispersion and could have been late BA, EIA arrivals!
Other subclades, notably some of those under CTS9320, could have migrated into the Southern Balkans along the course of the IA and could have been very late arrivals!

Even looking at Greece and it's y-dna dispersion, we can see a pattern in which J2a and R1b are mostly found in the South, E1b in the middle and R1a and I2a in the North!
https://i.postimg.cc/WbpkB6D7/lJx60C5.png (https://postimages.org/)
That's like a geological picture, the same way the geologists look into the layers of the earth to unearth it's mysteries!
And many E1b in Southern Greece and the islands are not even E-V13 but some other clades like E-V22!

That being said, I think that the true BA Southern Balkan markers were R1b and J2a!
That Greeks today have a lot of E1b doesn't say much about the situation in the Southern Balkans during BA as they were not a closed group of people during their history as heirs of the Roman and than the Byzantine empire, and they did assimilate a lot of other people and let's not forget about many survivors of the Northern Balkans during the medieval period that found refuge in the Greek coastal cities!

Imo, some closed group of people like the Aromuns, is better suited for studying the situation of the Balkans south of Danube when it comes to y-dna!
They even show much more diversity in y-dna haplotypes, unlike the Albanians who as you said belong to younger subclades who show founder effect!

And the situation with the Aromuns is the following: E-V13 is not the most dominant haplogroup in them!
J2 is, followed by R1b, although we should split J2 to J2a and J2b!
However, regarding J2a and J2b there is a big difference in different Aromun communities that shows that even the Aromuns should not be looked upon as a homogeneous group but rather as a different Balkan communities(Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians), that came under the Latin umbrella!

I have read somewhere that the Gramostian Aromuns are the purest Aromuns in sense that they didn't even mix much with other groups of Aromuns and the Aromuns of Stip, Macedonia, are Gramostians by origin so they might be the best candidates for examining.

Imo, the Gramostian Aromuns could be very good candidates for some Balkan population living north of the Greeks, Paeonians, Thracians?
E-V13 is very strong in them, around 20 % I think, however their E-V13 is different than the one observed in the Albanians but show links with the one in Bulgaria, something that I have observed with my own subclade!
They lack I2a-Dinaric which confirms my suspicion that the earliest migrant of Slavs in the Balkans were not heavy in I2a but in R1a!
Some R1a could have been brought by Goths even!
I2a probably came with later arrivals!
For example, Ivan Mikulcic, the Macedonian-Slovenian archaeologist says that on the territory of Rep. of Macedonia up to the 9th century, could not be observed any Slavic settlements unlike in Greece!
It seems that those early Slavs somehow had bypassed the territory of Rep. of Macedonia and settled heavily in Greece!
The first Slavic artefacts and settlements are observed when the Bulgars conquered the territory of Rep. of Macedonia in the middle of the 9th century!

Therefore, E-V13 in the Balkans should be linked with some cultures like Urnfield culture, Gava culture, Bassarabi culture??
Rather than being linked specifically with the Thracians because we observe diversity of subclades among different populations, however it's urheimat is definitely North of river Danube!
This logic of mine also follows the pattern in which E-V13 is stronger in the Slavic speaking populations of the Balkans today than let's say R1b or J2, so I think that many South Slavic speaking people had came in the Balkans already rich in E-V13 that they perhaps could have absorbed it on the territory of modern Romania and Hungary, rather than acquiring the E-V13 with the assimilation of local people after they've settled south of the river Danube!

In that sense, I believe that the Slavic speaking people of the Balkans are mostly Slavic-Dacian/Pannonian mix!
In that sense also, many medieval historians were not wrong calling the Sclavinae of the Balkans as Getae!

So, E-V13 could have been the most dominant haplogroup among the Dacians and Pannonians, and as the line of divide between Illyrians and Thracians is very thin, perhaps is better to say that E-V13 is more Thraco-Illyrian than Greek marker!

To sum up, the current study confirms previous findings of a relatively high frequency of haplogroup E-V13 among Cypriots (both GCy and TCy)[12,44], which points possibly to an influx of Aegean populations into Cyprus during the late Bronze Age / early Iron Age. Our analysis further reveals a relatively high genetic affinity between Greeks and Cypriots (both GCy and TCy) based on Y-STR analysis, but very little admixture between the two populations during the past millennium.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474
.
it seems like E-v13 is an aegean sea area origin, could be west-anatolian or greek

Aspar
23-01-19, 20:25
To sum up, the current study confirms previous findings of a relatively high frequency of haplogroup E-V13 among Cypriots (both GCy and TCy)[12,44], which points possibly to an influx of Aegean populations into Cyprus during the late Bronze Age / early Iron Age. Our analysis further reveals a relatively high genetic affinity between Greeks and Cypriots (both GCy and TCy) based on Y-STR analysis, but very little admixture between the two populations during the past millennium.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474
.
it seems like E-v13 is an aegean sea area origin, could be west-anatolian or greek

We seem to agree that many subclades downstream of E-V13 are LBA/EIA arrivals in the Aegean.
Where did E-V13 originates from?
I am certain it was in Europe but I can't tell where exactly!
However, the E-V13 who is the ancestor of all modern subclades of E-V13 with MRCA 4800 ybp, was certainly not around the Aegean!
How else you would explain the lack in numbers of E-V13 in the near East and Anatolia when compared with Central or even Western Europe?
That means that this ancestor of all modern E-V13 subclades must have been picked up by the Indo-Europeans somewhere close to the Pontic steppe and than following the Danube river, it was dispersed further west in Europe.

Archetype0ne
23-01-19, 21:40
Disclaimer: This is just my guess, take it as an unlikely scenario that might prove true, but false till otherwise stated.

5000 BP:
Balkans: Local "Celtic";"Pellasg" "Thracian" population of R1B. (Unsure about Dacian or Gaet tbh, think they would have been predominantly J2B2, with lower levels of early E-V13 mixed in.).
Egypt: Levant: Crete : Eastern Anatolia: E-V13 snakes into Anatolia, before pre-mixing with J2B2 by way of Caucasus and descending into mainland Balkans through Macedonia and the Vardar then upwards down the Danube.
Caucasus: East Anatolia: J2B2 (cattle already domesticated, already in the bronze age) mix with the E-V13 (early*Anatolian farmers, gold/silver smiths by way of Electroneum, less labor intensive than the J2B2 bronze age tech) before heading westwards potentially as an indistinguishable entity/ multiple entities (meaning no singularity for any modern day nationality as far as both clades are concerned..

Here IMO, technology takes off due to J2B2 and E-V13 niches being complementary to each other. Ie: E-V13 would have farmed, and dealt in silver and gold, trading with J2B2 for Bronze/Tin and embracing animal husbandry.

Then 1300... something makes the house of cards collapse for a couple hundred years of dark age, till Classical Period revival, and "Pax" Romana.

Elaishousse
13-02-19, 17:05
Y DNA EV13 It was since 7900 to 8400 years In Croatia
The oldest remains Y DNA are found In Croatia
Number sample I3948
MT DNA N1a1
YDNA EV13

Johane Derite
13-02-19, 17:20
Y DNA EV13 It was since 7900 to 8400 years In Croatia
The oldest remains Y DNA are found In Croatia
Number sample I3948
MT DNA N1a1
YDNA EV13

which paper?

Leka
13-02-19, 19:09
which paper?
I3948 is the E-L618+ Croatian Neolithic sample from The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe.

hrvat22
13-02-19, 21:23
Zemunica Cave (Croatia, Dalmatia) C1a2-V20 E1b1b1a1b1-CTS3287 5600-5470 BC Olande+2017


http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/report-2017-ancient-revised.pdf

Leka
15-02-19, 06:31
Never mind

Bergin
05-04-19, 16:00
I didn't say that E-V13 wasn't Balkanic in origins. The mutation may have first arisen in the Balkans then spread to the Carpathians and Ukraine (Cucuteni-Trypillia), then the lineage would have been absorbed by the IE tribes. Indo-European clades of E-V13 were surely present all over the Balkans since the Bronze Age, but the most of the deep clades found around Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro, etc. appear to have expanded only in the last 1650 to 900 years.Dear Maciamo, following Ralph&Coop paper, it is noticable a huge IBD peak for Albanians at the fall of the Roman empire. The authors interpret it as a near extinction event.
In my opinion only few illyrian clans survived,the very isolated ones. So almost by definition in Albanians can survive only a small fraction of the previous populations. Same holds for Albanian holders of Ev13.

You cannot expect to find large variety of Ev13 in post extiction albanians. Maybe with good time and resourses the pre extinction sceletons will be studied (i.e roman times). I would not be surprised to find a great variety of Ev13.

Just as a reminder the data from the paper. It shows the huge black hole that swallowd the illyrians and spit out the albanians (imo).

Nevertheless, there is a singularity phenomena (a sink) associated with the densest population of Ev13. All linear interpretation of other data, like gradients of actual distributions, will have doubtful accuracy.

I would like also tonthank you infinitely for all your posts, quite a pleasant and educative reading.10867

Sent from my SM-G955U using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Elaishousse
05-06-19, 21:13
sorry the remains were on the Haplogroup EL618

Johane Derite
10-08-19, 16:25
Maciamo, from the 2018 Grugni paper on Italian Y-dna we know that in Apulia and Po Valley there is elevated EV13 and J2b2 and the authors explicitly states that the migration pattern of it is from the balkans across the adriatic. The people that made such migrations are illyrians/messapians.

Now, not all Ev13 in italy will be from Illyrians, im sure magna grecia will show different clades, and that there are probably indigenous italic EV13 clades also, however such studies have not been yet done.

What we can say certainly though because of that paper is that local "illyrian" EV13 exists for sure.

Given that EV13 is the highest represented haplo among Albanians, its just not ethnographically probable to expect these EV13 people to have been speaking anything other than proto-albanian within the last 3000 years. Maybe a clade or two got assimilated, but if you actually look at hyper-albanian clans from all the way up north to south like in the heart of laberia zone where they were also very conservative albanians practicing the kanun of laberia, it just has no weight behind it as an argument.

The only probable scenario is that which we should expect already from historical and previous genetic data. We know most illyrians were either destroyed by wars and plagues or assimilated into foreign ethnos by conquerors, and that if we were to find surviving illyrians their y-dna should show severe bottlenecks as the paper of ralph/coop showed high IBD.

If you look at Z5018 you have bottlenecks, but nonetheless you have albanians from all over Albania, the most extreme south and north represented, especially under S2979.


http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/E-Z5018.png




You should read the article put out by the Albanian Bloodlines Group that summarizes the results thus far:


http://www.gjenetika.com/perberja-gjenetike-e-shqiptareve-sipas-linjave-aterore-2019/

LeoJ
25-11-19, 20:20
Maciamo, from the 2018 Grugni paper on Italian Y-dna we know that in Apulia and Po Valley there is elevated EV13 and J2b2 and the authors explicitly states that the migration pattern of it is from the balkans across the adriatic. The people that made such migrations are illyrians/messapians.

Now, not all Ev13 in italy will be from Illyrians, im sure magna grecia will show different clades, and that there are probably indigenous italic EV13 clades also, however such studies have not been yet done.

What we can say certainly though because of that paper is that local "illyrian" EV13 exists for sure.

Given that EV13 is the highest represented haplo among Albanians, its just not ethnographically probable to expect these EV13 people to have been speaking anything other than proto-albanian within the last 3000 years. Maybe a clade or two got assimilated, but if you actually look at hyper-albanian clans from all the way up north to south like in the heart of laberia zone where they were also very conservative albanians practicing the kanun of laberia, it just has no weight behind it as an argument.

The only probable scenario is that which we should expect already from historical and previous genetic data. We know most illyrians were either destroyed by wars and plagues or assimilated into foreign ethnos by conquerors, and that if we were to find surviving illyrians their y-dna should show severe bottlenecks as the paper of ralph/coop showed high IBD.

So, after being new here and spent 2 hours reading this topic, seems almost all previous assumptions were wrong. Let's summarize them (wrong assumptions):
1. Albanians have ones of the most recent e-v13 subclades
2. E-v13 originated north of Danube, Dacia/Moldavia
3. E-v13 spread from east to west Europe
4. So on....
Hey, is somebody here to show us a DECENT grand-picture on what's the real deal with E-v13 haplogroup ? I'm 'fixed' with this E, because in my opinion this haplo contributed most to the forming civilization values of the western world.

Hairarmy
04-12-19, 21:43
You should take a closer look at yfull.com.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/e-v13/

There's a lot of V13 in Saudi Arabia so it's a possibility that V13 are descendants of hundreds, possibly even thousands of Roman slaves that were brought in from Syria.

V13 does seem to trace back 5000 years, but so would R1b among US citizens, because R1b arrived in the US by the thousands, so there is no founder effect.

We'll need ancient DNA to figure this one out, but yfull.com shows an Irishman and Saudi who share a common ancestor 3000 years ago. Not exactly a smoking gun given the scarcity of samples, but it's something to keep an eye on.


I took the Y700 and am E-BY6125 up stream from V13 and also have matches in Libya and Italy. My Direct ancestry, last 10-12 generations, are Scots/Irish, German and English. I have read the Theory of the Roman Cohorts of Thracians and Illyrians and also of the Celtic Migrations. The theories seem sound. One way or another my E-S2979 Mutated from Kosovo region, Modern, to E-BY6125 England. We may find oout the real story one day

Aspurg
05-12-19, 01:48
One way or another my E-S2979 Mutated from Kosovo region, Modern, to E-BY6125 England. We may find oout the real story one day

There is no evidence whatsoever that E-S2979 mutated in Kosovo region. E-Y3183 is totally Eastern Balkan in origin. There is also one L241* clade in Bulgaria. Regarding E-FGC11451, there are some Albanian clusters, but also some distant Eastern clades, also some distant Carpathian clades. E-FGC33614 too has clades in Kosovo but also in Bulgaria. Point is Albanians are a bunch of bottlenecks and are more tested than Bulgarians, and especially those from former Dacian areas.

What can be said is that certain E-S2979 are likely connected with the pre-Illyrian/non-Illyrian proto-Dardanian substrate, whatever that may be.

Hairarmy
05-12-19, 06:44
There is no evidence whatsoever that E-S2979 mutated in Kosovo region. E-Y3183 is totally Eastern Balkan in origin. There is also one L241* clade in Bulgaria. Regarding E-FGC11451, there are some Albanian clusters, but also some distant Eastern clades, also some distant Carpathian clades. E-FGC33614 too has clades in Kosovo but also in Bulgaria. Point is Albanians are a bunch of bottlenecks and are more tested than Bulgarians, and especially those from former Dacian areas.

What can be said is that certain E-S2979 are likely connected with the pre-Illyrian/non-Illyrian proto-Dardanian substrate, whatever that may be.

Maybe I should rephrase that, I read it may have mutated there. I am not totally aware of the Baltic Region or History. I am new to all this and can only rely on some facts given and some hypothetical theories.
That said I am V13>CTS8814>CTS5856>BY3880>Z5018>S2979>BY6125 England. That last jump seems a long one. I have read several Theories as to how my Terminal SNP landed in Southern England. My point was, maybe one day there will be sufficient proof, rather than hypothesis.
I am very interested in the History of the migration and open minded to theories. This Y Line is actually all rather new, as I only recently found out my GGF was illegitimate> So I took the Y700 FTDNA Test and this is his real Y Paternal line. So I am exploring the Y DNA and a little surprised. I tested Predominantly Celtic and Scandinavian with the Autosomal Test. My Assumption would be whoever this S2979 man was came into England sum 1800-2000 years ago. He bred into the Local populace and after 1800 years or so the Autosomal DNA is pretty much washed out. But the S2979 Y remains intact. Is this assumption in the right thinking??

Hairarmy
05-12-19, 16:33
Maciamo, from the 2018 Grugni paper on Italian Y-dna we know that in Apulia and Po Valley there is elevated EV13 and J2b2 and the authors explicitly states that the migration pattern of it is from the balkans across the adriatic. The people that made such migrations are illyrians/messapians.

Now, not all Ev13 in italy will be from Illyrians, im sure magna grecia will show different clades, and that there are probably indigenous italic EV13 clades also, however such studies have not been yet done.

What we can say certainly though because of that paper is that local "illyrian" EV13 exists for sure.

Given that EV13 is the highest represented haplo among Albanians, its just not ethnographically probable to expect these EV13 people to have been speaking anything other than proto-albanian within the last 3000 years. Maybe a clade or two got assimilated, but if you actually look at hyper-albanian clans from all the way up north to south like in the heart of laberia zone where they were also very conservative albanians practicing the kanun of laberia, it just has no weight behind it as an argument.

The only probable scenario is that which we should expect already from historical and previous genetic data. We know most illyrians were either destroyed by wars and plagues or assimilated into foreign ethnos by conquerors, and that if we were to find surviving illyrians their y-dna should show severe bottlenecks as the paper of ralph/coop showed high IBD.

If you look at Z5018 you have bottlenecks, but nonetheless you have albanians from all over Albania, the most extreme south and north represented, especially under S2979.


http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/E-Z5018.png




You should read the article put out by the Albanian Bloodlines Group that summarizes the results thus far:


http://www.gjenetika.com/perberja-gjenetike-e-shqiptareve-sipas-linjave-aterore-2019/

So what groups do you believe make up S2979? I cannot read they link information. Apparently I am E-2979> E-BY6125 in England

Aspurg
14-12-19, 21:17
So, after being new here and spent 2 hours reading this topic, seems almost all previous assumptions were wrong. Let's summarize them (wrong assumptions):
1. Albanians have ones of the most recent e-v13 subclades
2. E-v13 originated north of Danube, Dacia/Moldavia
3. E-v13 spread from east to west Europe
4. So on....

Albanians are now more tested than most Balkan populations so they do have various clades of this and that. Now Albanians emotionally desire for E-V13 to have been primarily Illyrian haplogroup, because Enver Hoxha said so and because many people have this victimization cult "X, Y, Z came to our lands and occupied them bla bla".

My problem with this: V13 was there (Western Balkans) in Neolithic, so if it's primarily Illyrian then it is 2nd rate-Illyrian/Pelasgian. I'm not fond of being 2nd, 3rd rate in anything. Logic says that BA hg's that are usually dispersive have their thing going on, that they don't get ordered around but the opposite. Of course many Albanian V13 gladly play the court jester of J-L283 or R-Z2705, but I don't. You have some basal clades in the East already at CTS1273 level. I do have archaeological and even genetic evidence of V13 clades moving away from the Western Balkans (partly because of arrival of others, presumably J-L283).
Especially what concerns me is my own subclade.

Some archaeologists say that actually Daco-Thracian thing was Late Bronze Age, Early Iron age. Connected with Srubnaya Noa-Coslogeni culture. Some R-Z93's we see around are likely connected to that, but they aren't numerous. Who is numerous and diverse in Daco-Triballian areas with a low TMRCA is actually E-CTS9320. There were other cultures nearby such as Gava, Basarabi who played their part. Honestly I was missing some Srubnaya like, Cimmerian like link for CTS9320 until yesterday, when it turned out that an Ossetian is a basal CTS9320* (at that level) without any links (probably even SNP links) to any other CTS9320 that has been identified.

Other than CTS9320 clades, there is really nothing on the territory of Dacia which wold suggest some proto-Dacians. R-Z2103 in Romania is very weak. R-L51 being much stronger. And Z2103 in Romania mostly from current limited data has recent Southern connections. Such as R-Z2705, R-A12332 cluster found in some Moldavians/Romanians but also Aromanians from Albania, Greece.

So me thinks u've got a problem with Dacian E-V13, but I'm afraid Dacians were 30-50 % E-V13+ population. Who was Dacian, Slavic-Bastarnic I2a?? Or Slavic R1a's? Or R-U152? Some R-L51 might have been there in Dacian times from earlier Urnfield movements but the bulk arrived later. Though also those Celts were Dacian later as they Dacians eventually got better of Celts.



Hey, is somebody here to show us a DECENT grand-picture on what's the real deal with E-v13 haplogroup ? I'm 'fixed' with this E, because in my opinion this haplo contributed most to the forming civilization values of the western world.

In my opinion this haplogroup contributed little to "civilisation values" in Western World. Most of E-V13 in the West descends from Roman legionaries etc.

Progon
16-12-19, 17:23
When it comes to Balkan Slav logic way of thinking, they will try to deny any Albanian-Illyrian connection until doomsday.

Whatever complain you guys pose about Albanians, it's your fault solely. You started this stupid games in online boards, Albanians didn't give **** until they spotted your sneaky nature and how you spread lies.

Let me ask you something, starting from Bulgarians, Macedonians, Serbs, Croatians and Bosnians. Which population of you can explain the meaning of your nation ethnonym in your own native language? None of you.

Atleast Albanians, can explain everything regarding themself, Shqip, Arber, Ilir, Dardan, Bardhyl etc etc etc. Deal with it.

Kelmendasi
16-12-19, 18:18
Albanians are now more tested than most Balkan populations so they do have various clades of this and that. Now Albanians emotionally desire for E-V13 to have been primarily Illyrian haplogroup, because Enver Hoxha said so and because many people have this victimization cult "X, Y, Z came to our lands and occupied them bla bla".

My problem with this: V13 was there (Western Balkans) in Neolithic, so if it's primarily Illyrian then it is 2nd rate-Illyrian/Pelasgian. I'm not fond of being 2nd, 3rd rate in anything. Logic says that BA hg's that are usually dispersive have their thing going on, that they don't get ordered around but the opposite. Of course many Albanian V13 gladly play the court jester of J-L283 or R-Z2705, but I don't. You have some basal clades in the East already at CTS1273 level. I do have archaeological and even genetic evidence of V13 clades moving away from the Western Balkans (partly because of arrival of others, presumably J-L283).
Especially what concerns me is my own subclade.

Some archaeologists say that actually Daco-Thracian thing was Late Bronze Age, Early Iron age. Connected with Srubnaya Noa-Coslogeni culture. Some R-Z93's we see around are likely connected to that, but they aren't numerous. Who is numerous and diverse in Daco-Triballian areas with a low TMRCA is actually E-CTS9320. There were other cultures nearby such as Gava, Basarabi who played their part. Honestly I was missing some Srubnaya like, Cimmerian like link for CTS9320 until yesterday, when it turned out that an Ossetian is a basal CTS9320* (at that level) without any links (probably even SNP links) to any other CTS9320 that has been identified.

Other than CTS9320 clades, there is really nothing on the territory of Dacia which wold suggest some proto-Dacians. R-Z2103 in Romania is very weak. R-L51 being much stronger. And Z2103 in Romania mostly from current limited data has recent Southern connections. Such as R-Z2705, R-A12332 cluster found in some Moldavians/Romanians but also Aromanians from Albania, Greece.

So me thinks u've got a problem with Dacian E-V13, but I'm afraid Dacians were 30-50 % E-V13+ population. Who was Dacian, Slavic-Bastarnic I2a?? Or Slavic R1a's? Or R-U152? Some R-L51 might have been there in Dacian times from earlier Urnfield movements but the bulk arrived later. Though also those Celts were Dacian later as they Dacians eventually got better of Celts.



In my opinion this haplogroup contributed little to "civilisation values" in Western World. Most of E-V13 in the West descends from Roman legionaries etc.
I do believe that you're a smart guy who is very knowledgeable about these things, but I honestly don't understand what you are on about in the first two paragraphs.

The majority of Albanians don't want/believe E-V13 to be Illyrian because of ideas from Hoxha's dictatorship or "victimization", but it's because of the fact that this group is believed by most to have been in the area for a long time, and so for most Albanians they will connect it to the Illyrians. Anyways, certain E-V13 clades are most certainly connected to the Illyrians or Western Balkans, so it isn't exactly wrong. Sure, I won't deny that it is also fueled by nationalism to an extent. If anything it seems you have more of an emotional connection to this.

Also, I don't see how Illyrian E-V13 has to be "2nd rate Pelasgian" or whatever in your eyes. Most accept that this haplogroup expanded during the Bronze Age with IE speaking groups. Honestly this whole, "my haplogroup ordered yours around" is just cringe and since when are V13 Albanians "court jesters of J-L283 or R-Z2705"?

As for the Dacians, so far there are 2 samples (males samples that is) that could be considered Dacian (from Glinoe, Moldova):
1) Scy305 - R-Z2106
2) Scy197 - E-FGC44169 (Rafc from Anthrogenica checked the sample and found out that it was FGC44168+)

torzio
16-12-19, 19:14
I do believe that you're a smart guy who is very knowledgeable about these things, but I honestly don't understand what you are on about in the first two paragraphs.

The majority of Albanians don't want/believe E-V13 to be Illyrian because of ideas from Hoxha's dictatorship or "victimization", but it's because of the fact that this group is believed by most to have been in the area for a long time, and so for most Albanians they will connect it to the Illyrians. Anyways, certain E-V13 clades are most certainly connected to the Illyrians or Western Balkans, so it isn't exactly wrong. Sure, I won't deny that it is also fueled by nationalism to an extent. If anything it seems you have more of an emotional connection to this.

Also, I don't see how Illyrian E-V13 has to be "2nd rate Pelasgian" or whatever in your eyes. Most accept that this haplogroup expanded during the Bronze Age with IE speaking groups. Honestly this whole, "my haplogroup ordered yours around" is just cringe and since when are V13 Albanians "court jesters of J-L283 or R-Z2705"?

As for the Dacians, so far there are 2 samples (males samples that is) that could be considered Dacian (from Glinoe, Moldova):
1) Scy305 - R-Z2106
2) Scy197 - E-FGC44169 (Rafc from Anthrogenica checked the sample and found out that it was FGC44168+)

Illyria ( illyricum ) is really noted as a geographical area .....like saying britain or iberia .............but if they say Dardanian ( which is where Kosovo is now ) , then this is more exacting, a tribal name.......
Dalmatians, Pannonians, Liburnians, Iapodes etc etc are all tribal names ...Under the geographical name of Illyria/Illyricum ..............I do not recall any romans mentioning Illyrians, but always mentioned their tribal names

in regards to Dacians......are they Dacians or coastal Getae , ............I could be wrong, but Dacians where not on the black sea , while Getae where

in regards to V13, it seems concentrated in kosovo , but diminishes greatly as you head north being replaced by V22 as it reaches the alps

Kelmendasi
16-12-19, 19:27
Illyria ( illyricum ) is really noted as a geographical area .....like saying britain or iberia .............but if they say Dardanian ( which is where Kosovo is now ) , then this is more exacting, a tribal name.......
Dalmatians, Pannonians, Liburnians, Iapodes etc etc are all tribal names ...Under the geographical name of Illyria/Illyricum ..............I do not recall any romans mentioning Illyrians, but always mentioned their tribal names

in regards to Dacians......are they Dacians or coastal Getae , ............I could be wrong, but Dacians where not on the black sea , while Getae where

in regards to V13, it seems concentrated in kosovo , but diminishes greatly as you head north being replaced by V22 as it reaches the alps
True, Illyria is somewhat of a geographical area. However, evidence does seem to suggest the tribes of Illyria spoke languages which belonged to the same branch of IE, despite the differences. Would be best to call these tribes Illyric speaking.

Glinoe is a Scythian site, the people who lived there seem to have been part of the Scythian culture based on the archaeological evidence. Though, based on auDNA we can assume that some of these samples were actually originally Daco-Thracian speaking. We can't tell what tribe or Daco-Thracian speaking group they belonged to, though the Getae did occupy the lands nearby.

E-V13 is still found in higher percentages than E-V22 in Europe, even as you head further north. E-V22 is found in negligible amounts across Europe.

Aspurg
16-12-19, 23:07
When it comes to Balkan Slav logic way of thinking, they will try to deny any Albanian-Illyrian connection until doomsday.


Whatever complain you guys pose about Albanians, it's your fault solely. You started this stupid games in online boards, Albanians didn't give **** until they spotted your sneaky nature and how you spread lies.


Let me ask you something, starting from Bulgarians, Macedonians, Serbs, Croatians and Bosnians. Which population of you can explain the meaning of your nation ethnonym in your own native language? None of you.


Atleast Albanians, can explain everything regarding themself, Shqip, Arber, Ilir, Dardan, Bardhyl etc etc etc. Deal with it.


Well I am far from a typical Balkan Slav. I have no problem with Albanians being Illyrians, and I even said that majority of Albanians have such Illyrian Y-DNA connection.


You see, I am a bit different. My paternal family is Serb, but I spent much more time with Bosniaks. My Bosniak side is not typical for most Bosniaks as well. Composed of very Ottoman elements., that mostly claim Turkish origin, and some I believe do have it. From that side I am descended of these people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahije

Actually Dahije were from Serbia, but my grandfathers ancestry were mostly their equivalent from Sarajevo. Actually in 1804. Karadjordje came to Sarajevo and one of persons he met with was I believe grandfathers paternal ancestor, or some member of that family. About not reacting to his rebellion, I think he attempted some bribe.

Most Bosniaks cannot trace much of their ancestry, from that part of my ancestry I know usually at least 200+ years.


Well obviously Bulgarians, Macedonians can't surely. Croats, Bosnians likely can't. Serbs, it seems Serbs can actually! I used to think Serb ethnonym was foreign until recently.





The majority of Albanians don't want/believe E-V13 to be Illyrian because of ideas from Hoxha's dictatorship or "victimization", but it's because of the fact that this group is believed by most to have been in the area for a long time, and so for most Albanians they will connect it to the Illyrians. Anyways, certain E-V13 clades are most certainly connected to the Illyrians or Western Balkans, so it isn't exactly wrong. Sure, I won't deny that it is also fueled by nationalism to an extent. If anything it seems you have more of an emotional connection to this.


By "victimisation cult" I mean tendency of various ethnic groups to present them as "older than our enemies", crying "everything was fine until you came and started oppressing us". This is typical for many ethnic groups everywhere. But it doesn't fit with my World view well, I don't think invaders and "oppressors" are necessarily bad people.


That is the reason (not the only reason, others are far more legitimate like Schramm etc) why some Serbs push some Bessi or similar theory so that Serbs can be there in Western Balkans before Albanians. "Albanians are Paleobalkan but Slavs were earlier in Albania than carriers of Albanians language. "

I agree that there are lots of Illyrian E-V13 clades. Never disputed that.




Also, I don't see how Illyrian E-V13 has to be "2nd rate Pelasgian" or whatever in your eyes. Most accept that this haplogroup expanded during the Bronze Age with IE speaking groups. Honestly this whole, "my haplogroup ordered yours around" is just cringe and since when are V13 Albanians "court jesters of J-L283 or R-Z2705"?

The thing is Pelasgian link was always assumed for V13 since a decade ago. For ex at poreklo still most "knowledgeable guys" consider it Pelasgian, non-IE, "having nothing to do with Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks but pre-IE population". I remember first coming there and seeing discussion about Albanians claiming E-V13 as their and Illyrian, and seeing responses like "they have no right to claim any Illyrian precendence based on E-V13 because E-V13 has nothing to do with original Illyrians, they are pre-Indoeuropeans..


Among Montenegrins, there are some people whose tribes have had "problems", and for example some tribes don't like Vasojevici, because they pushed and submitted many clans in 18th, 19th century, when you see their interactions you instantly thing of this clan telling Vasojevici "ah see we are Slavic and you came out non-Slavic". Once I think one Vasojevic commented how one family from Durmitor who are I2a arrived from Central Balkans/Macedonian area which is probable due to their clade etc. The I2a guy whose tribe has bad relations with Vasojevici said to him "but they are Slavic", implying "and you are not" which he didn't say but ofc he meant it.

Funny to me seeing these guys who consider being Slavic something special, because I always rated far more Germanics.



If anything it seems you have more of an emotional connection to this.

I got into genealogy some time ago, I was taught by older relatives who knew about some old families, who descended of some elite Bosniak families and who consider those of "bad origin" (whose ancestors were not wealthy/powerful in 19th, 18th century etc.) as something "below".

I always considered Slavs to possess plenty of "peasant mentality", being "non-elite"/"plebian", from my POV that is bad.. Everybody in these discussion has preferences, I can recognize what they are in most cases..




As for the Dacians, so far there are 2 samples (males samples that is) that could be considered Dacian (from Glinoe, Moldova):
1) Scy305 - R-Z2106
2) Scy197 - E-FGC44169 (Rafc from Anthrogenica checked the sample and found out that it was FGC44168+)


Yes I heard E-FGC44169 was isolated. I checked only for CTS9320 and Z5018 to which he was negative, and I think S7461 (now below FGC44169).

blevins13
17-12-19, 00:09
Well I am far from a typical Balkan Slav. I have no problem with Albanians being Illyrians, and I even said that majority of Albanians have such Illyrian Y-DNA connection.


You see, I am a bit different. My paternal family is Serb, but I spent much more time with Bosniaks. My Bosniak side is not typical for most Bosniaks as well. Composed of very Ottoman elements., that mostly claim Turkish origin, and some I believe do have it. From that side I am descended of these people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahije

Actually Dahije were from Serbia, but my grandfathers ancestry were mostly their equivalent from Sarajevo. Actually in 1804. Karadjordje came to Sarajevo and one of persons he met with was I believe grandfathers paternal ancestor, or some member of that family. About not reacting to his rebellion, I think he attempted some bribe.

Most Bosniaks cannot trace much of their ancestry, from that part of my ancestry I know usually at least 200+ years.


Well obviously Bulgarians, Macedonians can't surely. Croats, Bosnians likely can't. Serbs, it seems Serbs can actually! I used to think Serb ethnonym was foreign until recently.






By "victimisation cult" I mean tendency of various ethnic groups to present them as "older than our enemies", crying "everything was fine until you came and started oppressing us". This is typical for many ethnic groups everywhere. But it doesn't fit with my World view well, I don't think invaders and "oppressors" are necessarily bad people.


That is the reason (not the only reason, others are far more legitimate like Schramm etc) why some Serbs push some Bessi or similar theory so that Serbs can be there in Western Balkans before Albanians. "Albanians are Paleobalkan but Slavs were earlier in Albania than carriers of Albanians language. "

I agree that there are lots of Illyrian E-V13 clades. Never disputed that.




The thing is Pelasgian link was always assumed for V13 since a decade ago. For ex at poreklo still most "knowledgeable guys" consider it Pelasgian, non-IE, "having nothing to do with Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks but pre-IE population". I remember first coming there and seeing discussion about Albanians claiming E-V13 as their and Illyrian, and seeing responses like "they have no right to claim any Illyrian precendence based on E-V13 because E-V13 has nothing to do with original Illyrians, they are pre-Indoeuropeans..


Among Montenegrins, there are some people whose tribes have had "problems", and for example some tribes don't like Vasojevici, because they pushed and submitted many clans in 18th, 19th century, when you see their interactions you instantly thing of this clan telling Vasojevici "ah see we are Slavic and you came out non-Slavic". Once I think one Vasojevic commented how one family from Durmitor who are I2a arrived from Central Balkans/Macedonian area which is probable due to their clade etc. The I2a guy whose tribe has bad relations with Vasojevici said to him "but they are Slavic", implying "and you are not" which he didn't say but ofc he meant it.

Funny to me seeing these guys who consider being Slavic something special, because I always rated far more Germanics.




I got into genealogy some time ago, I was taught by older relatives who knew about some old families, who descended of some elite Bosniak families and who consider those of "bad origin" (whose ancestors were not wealthy/powerful in 19th, 18th century etc.) as something "below".

I always considered Slavs to possess plenty of "peasant mentality", being "non-elite"/"plebian", from my POV that is bad.. Everybody in these discussion has preferences, I can recognize what they are in most cases..





Yes I heard E-FGC44169 was isolated. I checked only for CTS9320 and Z5018 to which he was negative, and I think S7461 (now below FGC44169).

I have hard time to connect E-V13 with pelasgians considering this map 11676


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

torzio
17-12-19, 02:13
Well I am far from a typical Balkan Slav. I have no problem with Albanians being Illyrians, and I even said that majority of Albanians have such Illyrian Y-DNA connection.


You see, I am a bit different. My paternal family is Serb, but I spent much more time with Bosniaks. My Bosniak side is not typical for most Bosniaks as well. Composed of very Ottoman elements., that mostly claim Turkish origin, and some I believe do have it. From that side I am descended of these people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahije

Actually Dahije were from Serbia, but my grandfathers ancestry were mostly their equivalent from Sarajevo. Actually in 1804. Karadjordje came to Sarajevo and one of persons he met with was I believe grandfathers paternal ancestor, or some member of that family. About not reacting to his rebellion, I think he attempted some bribe.

Most Bosniaks cannot trace much of their ancestry, from that part of my ancestry I know usually at least 200+ years.


Well obviously Bulgarians, Macedonians can't surely. Croats, Bosnians likely can't. Serbs, it seems Serbs can actually! I used to think Serb ethnonym was foreign until recently.






By "victimisation cult" I mean tendency of various ethnic groups to present them as "older than our enemies", crying "everything was fine until you came and started oppressing us". This is typical for many ethnic groups everywhere. But it doesn't fit with my World view well, I don't think invaders and "oppressors" are necessarily bad people.


That is the reason (not the only reason, others are far more legitimate like Schramm etc) why some Serbs push some Bessi or similar theory so that Serbs can be there in Western Balkans before Albanians. "Albanians are Paleobalkan but Slavs were earlier in Albania than carriers of Albanians language. "

I agree that there are lots of Illyrian E-V13 clades. Never disputed that.




The thing is Pelasgian link was always assumed for V13 since a decade ago. For ex at poreklo still most "knowledgeable guys" consider it Pelasgian, non-IE, "having nothing to do with Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks but pre-IE population". I remember first coming there and seeing discussion about Albanians claiming E-V13 as their and Illyrian, and seeing responses like "they have no right to claim any Illyrian precendence based on E-V13 because E-V13 has nothing to do with original Illyrians, they are pre-Indoeuropeans..


Among Montenegrins, there are some people whose tribes have had "problems", and for example some tribes don't like Vasojevici, because they pushed and submitted many clans in 18th, 19th century, when you see their interactions you instantly thing of this clan telling Vasojevici "ah see we are Slavic and you came out non-Slavic". Once I think one Vasojevic commented how one family from Durmitor who are I2a arrived from Central Balkans/Macedonian area which is probable due to their clade etc. The I2a guy whose tribe has bad relations with Vasojevici said to him "but they are Slavic", implying "and you are not" which he didn't say but ofc he meant it.

Funny to me seeing these guys who consider being Slavic something special, because I always rated far more Germanics.




I got into genealogy some time ago, I was taught by older relatives who knew about some old families, who descended of some elite Bosniak families and who consider those of "bad origin" (whose ancestors were not wealthy/powerful in 19th, 18th century etc.) as something "below".

I always considered Slavs to possess plenty of "peasant mentality", being "non-elite"/"plebian", from my POV that is bad.. Everybody in these discussion has preferences, I can recognize what they are in most cases..





Yes I heard E-FGC44169 was isolated. I checked only for CTS9320 and Z5018 to which he was negative, and I think S7461 (now below FGC44169).

Did you checkout the paper from 2017 by serkan dogan in regards to bosnian ydna

Angela
17-12-19, 16:12
That's it.

Another Albanian ruined thread.

You're lucky a bunch of you aren't banned.

DO NOT GO OFF TOPIC TO GET INTO YOUR ALBANIAN NATIONALIST CENTERED VIEW OF GENETICS.

Thread is closed.