PDA

View Full Version : Updated phylogenetic tree of E-V13



Maciamo
07-05-18, 14:34
I have updated and expanded the phylogenetic tree of haplogroup E-V13. I changed the layout to show when each clade developed in time so as to get a better idea of when the regional expansions happened.

Many branches of the tree are still missing. There are few Greek, Italian, French and Iberian samples tested for deep clades and hardly any West Asian ones at all except from the Gulf states.

Click on the tree to get to the page outside the forum and click once more to see it in full screen.
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/E-V13-tree-2018.png (https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/phylogenetic_trees_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#E-V13)

Milan.M
07-05-18, 15:20
So according to this map in the Balkans seems to be younger clades or as old as those in Central and East Europe and possible founder effect in Balkans,it seem like East Europe as possible source,i could think of Carpathian area or beyond,maybe Cucuteni culture?

Expredel
07-05-18, 17:30
Z5018 was found in Jordan so that branch is not exclusively European.


So according to this map in the Balkans seems to be younger clades or as old as those in Central and East Europe and possible founder effect in Balkans,it seem like East Europe as possible source,i could think of Carpathian area or beyond,maybe Cucuteni culture?
The distribution of V13 has a more south-eastern shift than the distribution of I2a.

don_joe
08-05-18, 00:01
The distribution looks almost impossible to me. I am Z16988 and if I try to find any pattern back in time, I can see Portugal, Italy and Bulgaria. E-V13 doesn't tell any story at all, it's all around. The lines jump from north to the south and then again back to the north. Like if E-V13 has had a relatively even distribution with different clades in all of the tribes above the Roman border and after the collapse of the empire it spread in all directions.

Maciamo
08-05-18, 10:26
The distribution looks almost impossible to me. I am Z16988 and if I try to find any pattern back in time, I can see Portugal, Italy and Bulgaria. E-V13 doesn't tell any story at all, it's all around. The lines jump from north to the south and then again back to the north. Like if E-V13 has had a relatively even distribution with different clades in all of the tribes above the Roman border and after the collapse of the empire it spread in all directions.

It's true that E-V13 has a mind-boggling distribution pattern that doesn't get much clearer when looking at subclades. That has to do with the fact that this lineage expanded very quickly from a single ancestor living at the onset of the Bronze Age and that E-V13 probably expanded with all Indo-European branches, so that branches can be Indo-Iranian, Balto-Slavic, Mycenaean, Illyrian, Italo-Celtic, and Germanic. To make it worse, it appears that some people, like the Hallstatt Celts, the Romans and the Goths redistributed some clades across wide geographical areas and mixing them with others.

Everything would look clearer if we had sufficient data for deep clades. Unfortunately a lot of people only tested at a level corresponding to the Middle Bronze Age, before the ethnogenesis of most historical people took place. What we need is data at least at the Iron Age or Classical Antiquity level, especially for southern Europe. Other haplogroups like I1, I2, N1c, R1a and R1b have a much higher phylogenetic definition, which makes it possible to trace back historical population movements. With E-V13 all we can do now is guess until more data is available. For example:

- L540 is found mostly in and around Germany and in Scandinavia. It would appear to be Germanic, but all L540 people descend from an ancestor who lived only 2000 years ago - too young to be part of the Germanic ethnogenesis. Additionally it appears to have expanded from Germany to Scandinavia rather than the other way round. So it could have been a lineage brought by the Corded Ware culture to Germany, which then became Celtic or Celto-Germanic until Germanic tribes expanded from Scandinavia to Germany. Only after that, during the Late Antiquity, did it start expanding from Germany, as what would be then be a Germanic lineage.

- CTS9320 has a distribution that could be compatible with a Hallstatt/La Tène Celtic dispersal. But it could also have been diffused by the Goths, if they picked up the lineage in Germany or Poland. The two aren't mutually exclusive. It could have originally spread with the Celts from Central Europe then, when the Goths reached Central Europe, they assimilated tribes with lots of E-V13 and brought more of that lineage across the Balkans. CTS9320 has a TMRCA of 3000 years, which places it right in the Hallstatt period. Its subclades expanded between 2500 and 3000 years ago, which corresponds to the Hallstatt and La Tène Celtic expansions. It's too bad there is almost no data at all from France, Belgium, Switzerland and Austria. Knowing what proportion of E-V13 in each country fits within which clade would go a long way to help us understand the origin of each clade.

- S2979 also expanded during the LBA and Iron Age. It is also found all over Europe, with the addition of Ukraine and Russia (including the Chuvash). The La Tène Celts did migrated to Ukraine and probably as far as the Volga-Ural region based on the presence of R1b-U152 (esp. L2) in the region, including high local frequencies among the Bashkirs. But the Goths also settled in Ukraine and one of their branches almost certainly also found their way to the Volga-Ural (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30887-Do-the-Mordvins-Chuvash-and-Tatars-descend-from-Carpathian-Goths/). Once again, S2979 could have started as a Celtic lineage then have become Gothic in the Late Antiquity. That would mean that the Goths were a confederation of Germanic, Slavic and Celtic tribes, rather than a solely Germanic tribes.

Alternatively, S2979 could have started as a Corded Ware lineage (found in Russia, Ukraine, Lithuania, Sweden, Germany), then it could have become Baltic and Slavic in Eastern Europe, while other branches in Central Europe were absorbed by the Celts, Goths, etc.

I am still looking for a potentially Illyrian and Mycenaean branch, but without good data from Greece that is not going to be possible. At present the only two samples from Greece belong to the Y35953 and Z17264 (under CTS9320) clades. Not much can be said from only two samples in a country where 21% of the population belongs to E1b1b and most of it is E-V13.

Maciamo
08-05-18, 10:38
If any of you belong to E-V13 and haven't tested for deep clades yet, I'd recommend the E-V13 Panel from YSeq (http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=2486), which tests over 100 clades for 75€.

Shetop
08-05-18, 10:39
I am Z16988 and if I try to find any pattern back in time, I can see Portugal, Italy and Bulgaria.

I'm also E-Z16988 . If you are interested in further discussion about this branch we both belong to feel free to send me a private message (here on the forum). One of the things which you might be interested in is a recently discovered A11837 subbranch below Z16988.

don_joe
08-05-18, 14:03
It's true that E-V13 has a mind-boggling distribution pattern that doesn't get much clearer when looking at subclades. That has to do with the fact that this lineage expanded very quickly from a single ancestor living at the onset of the Bronze Age and that E-V13 probably expanded with all Indo-European branches, so that branches can be Indo-Iranian, Balto-Slavic, Mycenaean, Illyrian, Italo-Celtic, and Germanic. To make it worse, it appears that some people, like the Hallstatt Celts, the Romans and the Goths redistributed some clades across wide geographical areas and mixing them with others.

Everything would look clearer if we had sufficient data for deep clades. Unfortunately a lot of people only tested at a level corresponding to the Middle Bronze Age, before the ethnogenesis of most historical people took place. What we need is data at least at the Iron Age or Classical Antiquity level, especially for southern Europe. Other haplogroups like I1, I2, N1c, R1a and R1b have a much higher phylogenetic definition, which makes it possible to trace back historical population movements. With E-V13 all we can do now is guess until more data is available. For example:

- L540 is found mostly in and around Germany and in Scandinavia. It would appear to be Germanic, but all L540 people descend from an ancestor who lived only 2000 years ago - too young to be part of the Germanic ethnogenesis. Additionally it appears to have expanded from Germany to Scandinavia rather than the other way round. So it could have been a lineage brought by the Corded Ware culture to Germany, which then became Celtic or Celto-Germanic until Germanic tribes expanded from Scandinavia to Germany. Only after that, during the Late Antiquity, did it start expanding from Germany, as what would be then be a Germanic lineage.

- CTS9320 has a distribution that could be compatible with a Hallstatt/La Tène Celtic dispersal. But it could also have been diffused by the Goths, if they picked up the lineage in Germany or Poland. The two aren't mutually exclusive. It could have originally spread with the Celts from Central Europe then, when the Goths reached Central Europe, they assimilated tribes with lots of E-V13 and brought more of that lineage across the Balkans. CTS9320 has a TMRCA of 3000 years, which places it right in the Hallstatt period. Its subclades expanded between 2500 and 3000 years ago, which corresponds to the Hallstatt and La Tène Celtic expansions. It's too bad there is almost no data at all from France, Belgium, Switzerland and Austria. Knowing what proportion of E-V13 in each country fits within which clade would go a long way to help us understand the origin of each clade.

- S2979 also expanded during the LBA and Iron Age. It is also found all over Europe, with the addition of Ukraine and Russia (including the Chuvash). The La Tène Celts did migrated to Ukraine and probably as far as the Volga-Ural region based on the presence of R1b-U152 (esp. L2) in the region, including high local frequencies among the Bashkirs. But the Goths also settled in Ukraine and one of their branches almost certainly also found their way to the Volga-Ural (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30887-Do-the-Mordvins-Chuvash-and-Tatars-descend-from-Carpathian-Goths/). Once again, S2979 could have started as a Celtic lineage then have become Gothic in the Late Antiquity. That would mean that the Goths were a confederation of Germanic, Slavic and Celtic tribes, rather than a solely Germanic tribes.

Alternatively, S2979 could have started as a Corded Ware lineage (found in Russia, Ukraine, Lithuania, Sweden, Germany), then it could have become Baltic and Slavic in Eastern Europe, while other branches in Central Europe were absorbed by the Celts, Goths, etc.

I am still looking for a potentially Illyrian and Mycenaean branch, but without good data from Greece that is not going to be possible. At present the only two samples from Greece belong to the Y35953 and Z17264 (under CTS9320) clades. Not much can be said from only two samples in a country where 21% of the population belongs to E1b1b and most of it is E-V13.Awesome analysis. Thank you for clarifying it a bit for me. Much appreciated.

don_joe
08-05-18, 14:10
I'm also E-Z16988 . If you are interested in further discussion about this branch we both belong to feel free to send me a private message (here on the forum). One of the things which you might be interested in is a recently discovered A11837 subbranch below Z16988.Thanks Shetop. I'll send you a message from my PC back home later.

don_joe
08-05-18, 23:03
I'm also E-Z16988 . If you are interested in further discussion about this branch we both belong to feel free to send me a private message (here on the forum). One of the things which you might be interested in is a recently discovered A11837 subbranch below Z16988.

Sorry everybody for hijacking the thread, I've sent you a message (two times, just in case) and I'm not sure if it worked, there is still nothing in "Sent Items" folder.

Shetop
09-05-18, 01:10
Sorry everybody for hijacking the thread, I've sent you a message (two times, just in case) and I'm not sure if it worked, there is still nothing in "Sent Items" folder.

It worked. I responded.

eastara
09-05-18, 05:16
There must be one more big correction to the E-V13 tree. The V13 project has discovered, and it has been also confirmed by FTDNA in its new tree, that under CTS5856 exist 3 major branches - S3003/L540, Z16663/Y3593 and BY3880. All of the rest and even the former CTS5856* fall under BY3880. This proves that S3003/L540 and Z16663 are older than Z5017, Z5018, S7461, etc.
Another thing is that just L540 and Z16663 are missing from the Southern Balkans for now (The Pontic Greeks are Eastern Anatolian, not Balkanites), which proves that E-V13 originally expanded into the Balkans and not from it.

kuzmosi
09-05-18, 09:40
Thank you Maciamo! Great job!

Maciamo
09-05-18, 10:47
There must be one more big correction to the E-V13 tree. The V13 project has discovered, and it has been also confirmed by FTDNA in its new tree, that under CTS5856 exist 3 major branches - S3003/L540, Z16663/Y3593 and BY3880. All of the rest and even the former CTS5856* fall under BY3880. This proves that S3003/L540 and Z16663 are older than Z5017, Z5018, S7461, etc.
Another thing is that just L540 and Z16663 are missing from the Southern Balkans for now (The Pontic Greeks are Eastern Anatolian, not Balkanites), which proves that E-V13 originally expanded into the Balkans and not from it.

Good to know. I have updated the tree.

kuzmosi
09-05-18, 19:29
- CTS9320 has a distribution that could be compatible with a Hallstatt/La Tène Celtic dispersal. But it could also have been diffused by the Goths, if they picked up the lineage in Germany or Poland. The two aren't mutually exclusive. It could have originally spread with the Celts from Central Europe then, when the Goths reached Central Europe, they assimilated tribes with lots of E-V13 and brought more of that lineage across the Balkans. CTS9320 has a TMRCA of 3000 years, which places it right in the Hallstatt period. Its subclades expanded between 2500 and 3000 years ago, which corresponds to the Hallstatt and La Tène Celtic expansions. It's too bad there is almost no data at all from France, Belgium, Switzerland and Austria. Knowing what proportion of E-V13 in each country fits within which clade would go a long way to help us understand the origin of each clade.

I think, the lack of CTS9320 in France, Austria, Belgium and Switzerland means, that not with the Hallstatt/ La Téne celts arrived in the Carpathian Basin along the Danube. When the celts arrived in the Carpathian Basin, they mixed with the local pannon or proto-illyrian population. Later when the celts pushed east and south, the branches of CTS9320 were already celts. With them and earlier prot-illyrians they spread east and south. So perhaps this is the reason, why the CTS9320 is missing from the West Celtic offspring. It was only among the eastern celts (boii, eravisci, scordisci, anartii, osii, cotini and the galatians)

Maciamo
09-05-18, 23:13
I think, the lack of CTS9320 in France, Austria, Belgium and Switzerland means, that not with the Hallstatt/ La Téne celts arrived in the Carpathian Basin along the Danube. When the celts arrived in the Carpathian Basin, they mixed with the local pannon or proto-illyrian population. Later when the celts pushed east and south, the branches of CTS9320 were already celts. With them and earlier prot-illyrians they spread east and south. So perhaps this is the reason, why the CTS9320 is missing from the West Celtic offspring. It was only among the eastern celts (boii, eravisci, scordisci, anartii, osii, cotini and the galatians)

But CTS9320 is found in Austria, Germany and France. In fact the rare French and Austrian E-V13 samples tested for subclades deep belong to CTS9320. What I meant is that I wished we have dozens (or hundreds) of samples from these countries to get a better idea of the frequency of each E-V13 clade in each country. It's not because 1 out of 1 French sample is CTS9320 that it is necessarily the main clade in France.

kuzmosi
10-05-18, 00:42
So the truth is still in the depths of time...

I can accept that our ancestor belonged to Hallstatt celtic groups. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts_in_Transylvania#Helmet_of_Ciume%C5%9Fti

I think it had an anartian chief property. This celtic helmet was founded only 10 km to east from my home, where my ancestors lived since I know. And I have another Hallstatt celtic ancestor from this region, an R1b-U152-L2-S8172.

This region never belonged to the Roman Empire. After the celts were defeated by the dacians (138 BC), this celtic tribes became dacians. After the roman conquering (106 AC), here, northwest from Dacia province, lived the "free dacians". A few decades later, the free dacians, with german tribes (gepids, victovals, vandals) attacked the Dacian limes. 100 years later the goths arrived, with another branches of EV13.

It's like three people sprinkle water on the floor. A proto illyrian/thracian(cimmerian?), a hallstatt celtic and a gothic. The floor was wet, but because all the buckets had the same amount of water (EV13 branches) it is not possible to tell which water drops are from which bucket.

Trojet
16-05-18, 15:43
I have updated and expanded the phylogenetic tree of haplogroup E-V13. I changed the layout to show when each clade developed in time so as to get a better idea of when the regional expansions happened.
Many branches of the tree are still missing. There are few Greek, Italian, French and Iberian samples tested for deep clades and hardly any West Asian ones at all except from the Gulf states.
Click on the tree to get to the page outside the forum and click once more to see it in full screen.
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/E-V13-tree-2018.png (https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/phylogenetic_trees_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#E-V13)

Maciamo, not all E-Z38456 Albanians are under Y92017. We have tested a couple of Z38456 Albanians at YSEQ for Y92017 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=62018) and they both came out negative. Y92017 seems to be a more recent mutation, and currently shared by the two samples coming from the same region (Mirdita, Albania). So IMO, your tree gives the wrong impression to the average viewer, implying that all Z38456 Albanians are under the more recent Y92017 subclade.

Kelmendasi
16-05-18, 15:59
I think Maciamo should include the Z27131 clade of Z16988 in the tree and label it as Albania since this clade has only been found among the Albanians of Malsia(Kelmendi and Kastrati) so far afaik, so it seems unique to Albanians

Aspurg
16-05-18, 16:38
Maciamo, not all E-Z38456 Albanians are under Y92017. We have tested a couple of Z38456 Albanians at YSEQ for Y92017 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=62018) and they both came out negative. Y92017 seems to be a more recent mutation, and currently shared by the two samples coming from the same region (Mirdita, Albania). So IMO, your tree gives the wrong impression to the average viewer, implying that all Z38456 Albanians are under the more recent Y92017 subclade.

I guess among those Albanians tested negative for Y92017 must be Maksuti? there is a branch below BY4461 recognizable by a pretty unique STR value of dys454=12. This value is shared by those Dalmatian Serb and Croat haplotypes. Also one Italian from Sicily has it, as does Antal from Bukovina (I think he might be a Szekely).

Interestingly there are several Bulgarians on ftdna that are predicted as possibly Z38456 due to their very high values on dys458. I see now there is a Mihaly 278854 from Bukovina (also Szekely ?) who has more markers (37). There are from Bulgarian study 2 haplotypes from Lovech who share with him dys390=25 + high dys458 so they seem related. ftdna Bulgarians don't have this particular value of dys390=25. These haplotypes have some unusual values for Z38456 like dys447=26, GATAH4=11 (usually it is 12). But they do all keep dys458=19/20, and Mihaly has dys464cd=17-18 (common for all Z17107). This branch is likely more distant from Dalmatian/Italian/Macedonian dys454=12.

Already it is obvious that the TMRCA for Z38456 cannot possibly remain 1650 years, as there exists a Swedish branch (not yet on Yfull) of Z38456>BY4435 and they don't share 20 SNP's with Kaçinar Albanians. That's more likely 2800-2900 ybp territory.

Aspurg
16-05-18, 18:30
- CTS9320 has a distribution that could be compatible with a Hallstatt/La Tène Celtic dispersal. But it could also have been diffused by the Goths, if they picked up the lineage in Germany or Poland. The two aren't mutually exclusive. It could have originally spread with the Celts from Central Europe then, when the Goths reached Central Europe, they assimilated tribes with lots of E-V13 and brought more of that lineage across the Balkans. CTS9320 has a TMRCA of 3000 years, which places it right in the Hallstatt period. Its subclades expanded between 2500 and 3000 years ago, which corresponds to the Hallstatt and La Tène Celtic expansions. It's too bad there is almost no data at all from France, Belgium, Switzerland and Austria. Knowing what proportion of E-V13 in each country fits within which clade would go a long way to help us understand the origin of each clade.
.

Because it is relatively young and widespread, more useful for the origin of CTS9320 is to look at it's immediate parent clades:


1. E-CTS6377 includes Bulgarian from Stara Zagora area, also Greek Vlahopoulos with close STR matches and Medieval common ancestry with a Bulgarian. Vlachs are not native to Greece so Vlahopulos (his surname might be an indication of his origins) must have arrived from north relatively recently.
Andalusian cluster of Spanish CTS6377, not yet on Yfull, their distance to Bulgarian is around 2700 ypb, it's on 67 markers so not as reliable like it is on 111 but what is important is that they both share the distinct STR values of dys385=14-18 and GATAH4=10. So these values for CTS6377 are old and it is fully justifiable to look for them in CTS6377 candidates. One of very few such candidates from anonymous studies is an Ukrainian haplotype from Lviv area, it is highly likely he is also CTS6377. Other than him I have not seen any other good CTS6377 candidates.


2. E-S26015 , there is an isolated Ruthenian cluster that is positive S26015 and CTS2001 (who are on CTS9320 level) but actually seems ambiguous on CTS9320 itself.


3. There are some other clades under CTS9320 that seem to be very distant from others, some Ukrainian/Russian Z17107*, Z16988* etc.


It seems the expansion of CTS9320 might have began in Carpathian area, some clades migrating southwards through the middle of Balkan peninsula, some ending up in Greece. Among Asia Minor Greeks, in a study (The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization) where more STR markers are present (43) actually 2/3 of Asia Minor Greek V13's are certain to be CTS9320. These include Z17264 and Z17107>Z38456. In particular Z17264 seems to show a strong connection with Greeks. Other than Asia Minor Greeks, such haplotypes are found in Greek Macedonia, Ionian islands, Cyprus etc.
In addition
Italian clade CTS9320>S19928>BY20073 has a unique STR combination of dys385=17-21 + dys448=19
Cypriot V13 from Kyreneia 13 24 13 10 17-21 12 11 13 11 30 16 14 19 11 15 10 21 10 11 , this is sufficient to say he seems very likely BY20073. V13 is not common on Crete but one of very few available Cretan haplotypes looks similar to this one.


This clade is found among Albanians but that haplotype is very distant (possibly even 3000 years).


Also among Greeks from Cyprus it seems a second clade under S19928 might be found S19928>BY4518 due to some Cypriot V13's having matchup on dys385=17-18 + dys549=11 with Ruthenians.
In general though it seems that CTS9320, while present, is not dominant among Cypriot V13. It seems L241 might be most numerous of the V13 clades there. There is one Cypriot V13 on ftdna who hasn't tested SNP's but on 37 markers he fits as L241 and bunch of haplotypes from anonymous studies of Cyprus are connected to him, 3 % of all Cypriots.


Considering the percentage of V13 among Greeks very few Greeks have been tested for specific clades. But it seems the bulk of Greek CTS9320 came during post-Mycenaean collapse. And the same goes for Greek L241 (TMRCA 3200 ybp).

Maleth
16-05-18, 19:44
Hello Maciamo (or anyone knowledgeable :) ) I tested positive for A7136 according to yseq. Were would that put me on the pylogenetic tree please? Is it same as A7135?

Aspurg
16-05-18, 21:07
Hello Maciamo (or anyone knowledgeable :) ) I tested positive for A7136 according to yseq. Were would that put me on the pylogenetic tree please? Is it same as A7135?

You are the A7136 from Malta? I think this clade has clearly an older connection to Greece. Quite possibly Minyan or Mycenaean. And actually a second V13 looking haplotype from Crete seems to have crucial STR matches with you. Number of markers is low but those are some specific values for both you and S19928 clade the other Cretan E1b seems to be connected.

Cretan haplotype matches with you on dys385=15-19 + dys19=14. Those values are all untypical for V13. He doesn't match on dys389i, he has 12. You have standard 13. But I'd say because of those unusual values there is a good chance you're related.

I say this with reserve because in this study there are only 12 markers but those specific markers seem to be more important for your clade.

Maleth
17-05-18, 00:00
You are the A7136 from Malta? I think this clade has clearly an older connection to Greece. Quite possibly Minyan or Mycenaean. And actually a second V13 looking haplotype from Crete seems to have crucial STR matches with you. Number of markers is low but those are some specific values for both you and S19928 clade the other Cretan E1b seems to be connected.

Cretan haplotype matches with you on dys385=15-19 + dys19=14. Those values are all untypical for V13. He doesn't match on dys389i, he has 12. You have standard 13. But I'd say because of those unusual values there is a good chance you're related.

I say this with reserve because in this study there are only 12 markers but those specific markers seem to be more important for your clade.

Many thanks for your reply Aspurg. My family name paper trail goes back as arriving from Sicily soon after the Sicilian Vespers rebellions (which Malta was part of at the time). I have been waiting a long time to see to which geographical areas it might be more familiar with. Maybe discovering deeper clades can give more concrete answers. I have matched on 12 markers two persons from South Germany (Baden baden), but I guess 12 Markers is not much to go by with. On a genetic distance of one it took me to Russia Ukraine Italy and Spain and Cornwall (England). So its a little erratic to say the least. Your insight makes it all the more interesting....thanks :)

Aspurg
17-05-18, 22:06
Many thanks for your reply Aspurg. My family name paper trail goes back as arriving from Sicily soon after the Sicilian Vespers rebellions (which Malta was part of at the time). I have been waiting a long time to see to which geographical areas it might be more familiar with. Maybe discovering deeper clades can give more concrete answers. I have matched on 12 markers two persons from South Germany (Baden baden), but I guess 12 Markers is not much to go by with. On a genetic distance of one it took me to Russia Ukraine Italy and Spain and Cornwall (England). So its a little erratic to say the least. Your insight makes it all the more interesting....thanks :)

You're welcome.:smile: Well as I see it you are rightly classified as A7136 but you did not do SNP's below V13? It's of course recommended, but I think you most likely belong to the Y3183>S2972>A7135>A7136>Y18675>Y18673>BY5423 , all members of this clade share a value dys19=14
with you, so that seems to be a value that separates BY5423 from other clades under Y18673. Closest to you on 67 markers is an Englishman.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y18360/

So you see under E-Y18360
- Y18360* Chuvash
- A8458 Irishman, Puerto Rican, and also not on Yfull an Armenian
- BY5423 Bosnia, Macedonia. Not on Yfull also Bunyard from London and de Menezes from Brazil. This one from Bosnia belongs to an old family of Poblaćani-Vojinovići from Pljevlja area, their ancestor was a Christian Sipahi in 1608. Their origin might be from south (750 ypb distance with Macedonian).

Of these 3 clades only BY5423 has dys19=14, so it is an important value to look for when searching for cousins.
TMRCA of you Englishman and Brazilian might be roughly around 1500-1700 ypb. On 67 markers you have 14 differences with Englishman, 17 with Brasilian, but between themselves they only have 12 differences, as you haplotype seems somewhat more "mutated".

There is a Greek from Kastania who is A7136, but haven't seen his markers.
So generally with this anonymous Greek haplotype from Crete (Crete and Southern Aegean as designated in the study) possibly belonging there, this clade seems to have possible/likely connection to Ancient Greece.

Maleth
18-05-18, 18:27
You're welcome.:smile: Well as I see it you are rightly classified as A7136 but you did not do SNP's below V13? It's of course recommended, but I think you most likely belong to the Y3183>S2972>A7135>A7136>Y18675>Y18673>BY5423 , all members of this clade share a value dys19=14
with you, so that seems to be a value that separates BY5423 from other clades under Y18673. Closest to you on 67 markers is an Englishman.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y18360/

So you see under E-Y18360
- Y18360* Chuvash
- A8458 Irishman, Puerto Rican, and also not on Yfull an Armenian
- BY5423 Bosnia, Macedonia. Not on Yfull also Bunyard from London and de Menezes from Brazil. This one from Bosnia belongs to an old family of Poblaćani-Vojinovići from Pljevlja area, their ancestor was a Christian Sipahi in 1608. Their origin might be from south (750 ypb distance with Macedonian).

Of these 3 clades only BY5423 has dys19=14, so it is an important value to look for when searching for cousins.
TMRCA of you Englishman and Brazilian might be roughly around 1500-1700 ypb. On 67 markers you have 14 differences with Englishman, 17 with Brasilian, but between themselves they only have 12 differences, as you haplotype seems somewhat more "mutated".

There is a Greek from Kastania who is A7136, but haven't seen his markers.
So generally with this anonymous Greek haplotype from Crete (Crete and Southern Aegean as designated in the study) possibly belonging there, this clade seems to have possible/likely connection to Ancient Greece.

Thank you for all the info. Probably the best analysis i ever had, and as i said before its all very interesting :). I would need to go for those snps some time soon when Im a little more relaxed then I have been recently. Cheers

Teancum
18-05-18, 21:14
Aspurg,

This is my first post on the site. I've tested 37 markers at FTDNA, and with my recent V13 SNP pack apparently tested negative for Y92017, but positive for BY4461, so this somewhat (or totally) refers to me as well. How do I find out if I'm Gheg or Tosk? Or get information on the Dibrri clan, which the Gjenetika Shqiptare site <seems> to suggest? I can't find anything in English, and am quite eager to learn more.

Also, you mention "one Italian, from Sicily." I wonder if you are referring to me, as I am on that Shqiptare list for BY4461. My paternal Great grandfather came from Sicily to America. Apparently I'm Arberesh, which is something I knew nothing about until a couple of weeks ago when the V13 pack results came in. I immediately joined the Albanian Bloodlines group there. The more I can find out about my lineage/genetics, the better. Until I began the DNA journey I knew nothing about myself, and seem to learn more almost daily. This thread is of tremendous interest to me!

Also, thanks, Maciamo for the tree!

Alan

Teancum
18-05-18, 22:59
<delete double post>

Aspurg
19-05-18, 02:18
Thank you for all the info. Probably the best analysis i ever had, and as i said before its all very interesting :). I would need to go for those snps some time soon when Im a little more relaxed then I have been recently. Cheers


Glad I could be of help.:smile: Hopefully some other A1736's might pop up, especially in areas like Greece where one might expect them.



Aspurg,


This is my first post on the site. I've tested 37 markers at FTDNA, and with my recent V13 SNP pack apparently tested negative for Y92017, but positive for BY4461, so this somewhat (or totally) refers to me as well. How do I find out if I'm Gheg or Tosk? Or get information on the Dibrri clan, which the Gjenetika Shqiptare site <seems> to suggest? I can't find anything in English, and am quite eager to learn more.


Nice to meet you. Dibrri are from Mirdita. There is some info on them in a book "The Tribes of Albania: History, Society and Culture". But you don't belong to their cluster. You belong to Y92017- cluster defined by STR value of DYS454=12 with one Albanian from Macedonia, two Dalmatians (Serb and Croat) and a Szekely from Bukovina/Romania. For more info you might ask some Albanians like Trojet, he's from Macedonia, and also from Mirdita. :smile: About Ghegs or Tosks, I don't think there are many tested Tosks but going by scientific studies where are are larger Tosk samples BY4461 (recognizable by very high dys458=19/20/21) is common in both Ghegs and Tosks.




Also, you mention "one Italian, from Sicily." I wonder if you are referring to me, as I am on that Shqiptare list for BY4461. My paternal Great grandfather came from Sicily to America. Apparently I'm Arberesh, which is something I knew nothing about until a couple of weeks ago when the V13 pack results came in. I immediately joined the Albanian Bloodlines group there. The more I can find out about my lineage/genetics, the better. Until I began the DNA journey I knew nothing about myself, and seem to learn more almost daily. This thread is of tremendous interest to me!



Yes I had you in mind. :smile: You might have or not have Arberesh ancestry. In a study of 150 Arberesh from Sicily and Calabria there are no BY4461. In all of Italy I only saw one BY4461 from Campobasso (regional study of 883 haplotypes).

Trojet
19-05-18, 03:17
Nice to meet you. Dibrri are from Mirdita. There is some info on them in a book "The Tribes of Albania: History, Society and Culture". But you don't belong to their cluster. You belong to Y92017- cluster defined by STR value of DYS454=12 with one Albanian from Macedonia, two Dalmatians (Serb and Croat) and a Szekely from Bukovina/Romania.

At 11/37, he is quite distant from that Albanian from Macedonia. Additionally, a couple of the differences are multi step. I mean, yes they do share DYS454=12 (instead of the modal 11), which is a fairly stable marker and could define a cluster under BY4461, but I wouldn't define him in this "cluster" based on on that marker alone. Considering the high genetic distance I mentioned above, their lines could have independently mutated from 11 to 12.


For more info you might ask some Albanians like Trojet, he's from Macedonia, and also from Mirdita. :smile:

Haha, I hope you realize that I can't be from both Macedonia and Mirdita.


Yes I had you in mind. :smile: You might have or not have Arberesh ancestry. In a study of 150 Arberesh from Sicily and Calabria there are no BY4461. In all of Italy I only saw one BY4461 from Campobasso (regional study of 883 haplotypes).

Just because E-V13 and DYS458=18-21 (BY4461) was not found in an Arberesh study, that doesn't mean he couldn't have Arberesh origin. Based on the three BigY's and the available haplotypes, E-BY4461 TMRCA should be around 2000 years. Therefore, considering this specific clade is by far most commonly found in the Balkans (Albanians) and Teancum's paternal line comes from western Sicily, most likely his line did make it there with Arbereshe (Albanian) people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arb%C3%ABresh%C3%AB_people) who were in large part of Tosk origin (E-BY4461 does exist among Tosk also, as you mentioned). Otherwise, I couldn't come up with a better explanation.


@Teancum, I'm an admin at Albanian Bloodlines ;)

Aspurg
19-05-18, 07:20
At 11/37, he is quite distant from that Albanian from Macedonia. Additionally, a couple of the differences are multi step. I mean, yes they do share DYS454=12 (instead of the modal 11), which is a fairly stable marker and could define a cluster under BY4461, but I wouldn't define him in this "cluster" based on on that marker alone. Considering the high genetic distance I mentioned above, their lines could have independently mutated from 11 to 12.


You're correct that they might have mutated independently as among many clades of various haplogroups often exists "instability" on certain markers, although considering general stability of this marker they might indeed be defined by it. These Dalmatians are not close to each other (on large number of markers) and they do share this value.






Haha, I hope you realize that I can't be from both Macedonia and Mirdita.

True, I thought you had ancestry from Oroshi, Kushneni, Spachi but I see now you're just distantly related to them.



Just because E-V13 and DYS458=18-21 (BY4461) was not found in an Arberesh study, that doesn't mean he couldn't have Arberesh origin. Based on the three BigY's and the available haplotypes, E-BY4461 TMRCA should be around 2000 years. Therefore, considering this specific clade is by far most commonly found in the Balkans (Albanians) and Teancum's paternal line comes from western Sicily, most likely his line did make it there with Arbereshe (Albanian) people who were in large part of Tosk origin (E-BY4461 does exist among Tosk also, as you mentioned). Otherwise, I couldn't come up with a better explanation.



That's true, I left both options open. I agree that 2000 years looks closer for BY4461, I remember Mirditas have a "modalish" haplotype generally. Well it is widespread among Albanians and diverse. Also there are some in central Serbia, among Macedonians, possibly/probably Bulgaria (they have 458=20 but they have dys447=26, also GATAH4=11), Szekely, one Romanian from both Cluj and Moldova (studies) and as I mentioned those Greeks from Smyrna. It seems absent among Greeks from Macedonia and Cyprus. 2 in Corinthia and 1 on Eubeia and 1 in Athens but these had Arvanites. Also on ftdna one Greek Doukas, related to him is one Turk from Bulgaria (9/67).




There is something very interesting about that Arberesh study. At poreklo simo began connecting the Montenegrin Bjelica clan who are E-Z19851 with the historical tribe of Mataruga and I went further by suggesting there might be a connection between an old Montenegrin tribe of Mataruga and Mataranga family through Z19851:


-there are 7 from that Arberesh study who seem close to Bjelice E-Z19851 all from Calabria, plus maybe 2 from Sicily
-there are surnames among Arberesh from Calabria such as Matranga and Matrangolo, as well Matranga on Sicily
-there is one Z19851 in Moschato near Karditsa in Aetolia, nearby there is a village Mataranga, I don't know his surname.
-there are Z19851 among Aromanians from Andon Poci and also among Aromanians from Constanța in Romania, and this one from Moschato is very close to latter. I wondered if his surname is Mataranga.:smile:
-Among Aromanians from Constanța exists surname Mataranga


Also it is very interesting that these Z19851 haplotypes basically do not exist among Albanians today (looking also at studies), if these are Mataranga's basically the entire Mataranga family emigrated with the Arberesh and they comprise great part of V13's there.


There were some traditions about Mataruga "king" Sumor, which seems like a combination of an Albanian name Suma + Aromanian suffix -or, and they kinda seem like a mixed Albanian/Vlach population as they are found both among Aromanians and Arberesh.


If someone among those tested Arberesh or Aromanians is reading this, they should come forward and say something. If they are indeed Mataranga's Bjelice clan are 100 % Mataruga's.

Trojet
20-05-18, 20:23
Speaking of E-Z38456>BY4461, we just got another such haplotype in the Albanian Bloodlines Project. He comes from Tirana county. There is some interesting off modal values, such as DYS393=12, DYS390=23, DYS392=12, and finally DYS454=12, but retains the characteristic values at DYS458, DYS447, and GATAH4.

Anyways, this is another sample suggesting E-Z38456>BY4461 is very diverse among Albanians, especially the area around central Albania north of Shkumbin river.

Leka
20-05-18, 23:28
There is something very interesting about that Arberesh study. At poreklo simo began connecting the Montenegrin Bjelica clan who are E-Z19851 with the historical tribe of Mataruga and I went further by suggesting there might be a connection between an old Montenegrin tribe of Mataruga and Mataranga family through Z19851:


-there are 7 from that Arberesh study who seem close to Bjelice E-Z19851 all from Calabria, plus maybe 2 from Sicily
-there are surnames among Arberesh from Calabria such as Matranga and Matrangolo, as well Matranga on Sicily
-there is one Z19851 in Moschato near Karditsa in Aetolia, nearby there is a village Mataranga, I don't know his surname.
-there are Z19851 among Aromanians from Andon Poci and also among Aromanians from Constanța in Romania, and this one from Moschato is very close to latter. I wondered if his surname is Mataranga.:smile:
-Among Aromanians from Constanța exists surname Mataranga


Also it is very interesting that these Z19851 haplotypes basically do not exist among Albanians today (looking also at studies), if these are Mataranga's basically the entire Mataranga family emigrated with the Arberesh and they comprise great part of V13's there.


There were some traditions about Mataruga "king" Sumor, which seems like a combination of an Albanian name Suma + Aromanian suffix -or, and they kinda seem like a mixed Albanian/Vlach population as they are found both among Aromanians and Arberesh.


If someone among those tested Arberesh or Aromanians is reading this, they should come forward and say something. If they are indeed Mataranga's Bjelice clan are 100 % Mataruga's.

Corovic also makes that connection between Matranga and Mataruga, but I don't think there is much there to go on besides the similar looking names. A year ago a Sicilian living in US with the last name 'Matranga' showed up as a match on my relatives list at 23andme and he is not V13.

It's quite possible that they were Albanian judging by their tribes name (matane rruge - which translates to across the street) but wouldn't rule out the Vlah possibility either.

Aspurg
21-05-18, 06:26
Speaking of E-Z38456>BY4461, we just got another such haplotype in the Albanian Bloodlines Project. He comes from Tirana county. There is some interesting off modal values, such as DYS393=12, DYS390=23, DYS392=12, and finally DYS454=12, but retains the characteristic values at DYS458, DYS447, and GATAH4.


Anyways, this is another sample suggesting E-Z38456>BY4461 is very diverse among Albanians, especially the area around central Albania north of Shkumbin river.


Interesting, that's quite a lot of non-modal values on slow markers such as dys393, dys390, dys392.. Depending on other STR's he might increase the age of BY4461 to over 2000 years.
In Arberesh study, there is one Tosk BY4461 with dys393=12.





Corovic also makes that connection between Matranga and Mataruga, but I don't think there is much there to go on besides the similar looking names. A year ago a Sicilian living in US with the last name 'Matranga' showed up as a match on my relatives list at 23andme and he is not V13.


It's quite possible that they were Albanian judging by their tribes name (matane rruge - which translates to across the street) but wouldn't rule out the Vlah possibility either.


Yes he was the first to make such suggestion. Thanks for that information, I guess Bjelice might not be Mataruga at all. In literature there is a group of families such as Parezhanin, Bratic etc who are supposedly descendants of this Mataruga tribe, but their haplotype is very unusual, probably not V13 but E-M84. And they hardly have any close relatives. Also one with Mataruga surname turned out Carpathian R1a.


Z19851 does have certain connections with Vlachs, being found twice in Aromanian study, and interestingly not one such haplotype among Albanians but it is found in Aromanians from Albania. Generally Aromanians and Albanians seem quite different genetically, I think there might not be an SNP younger than 2000 years that they share. It's only strange that it appears among Arberesh. Also there are two E-Z19851 Bulgarians who seem only little over 1000 years distant. So bar the Arberesh, this does seem like a "Vlach clade". Actually if this clade came from Bulgaria with Vlachs, it could be actually Celtic (as simo suggested) looking at it's TMRCA and spread (N.Italy, England, Scotland..).

Ownstyler
21-05-18, 07:25
Interesting, that's quite a lot of non-modal values on slow markers such as dys393, dys390, dys392.. Depending on other STR's he might increase the age of BY4461 to over 2000 years.
In Arberesh study, there is one Tosk BY4461 with dys393=12.







Yes he was the first to make such suggestion. Thanks for that information, I guess Bjelice might not be Mataruga at all. In literature there is a group of families such as Parezhanin, Bratic etc who are supposedly descendants of this Mataruga tribe, but their haplotype is very unusual, probably not V13 but E-M84. And they hardly have any close relatives. Also one with Mataruga surname turned out Carpathian R1a.


Z19851 does have certain connections with Vlachs, being found twice in Aromanian study, and interestingly not one such haplotype among Albanians but it is found in Aromanians from Albania. Generally Aromanians and Albanians seem quite different genetically, I think there might not be an SNP younger than 2000 years that they share. It's only strange that it appears among Arberesh. Also there are two E-Z19851 Bulgarians who seem only little over 1000 years distant. So bar the Arberesh, this does seem like a "Vlach clade". Actually if this clade came from Bulgaria with Vlachs, it could be actually Celtic (as simo suggested) looking at it's TMRCA and spread (N.Italy, England, Scotland..).

The thing with Albanians is that today's Albanians are very likely the decendants of only a fraction of the Albanian speaking people of the early middle ages. The current genetic diversity is quite low and it has been calculated that the ancestors of modern Albanians amount to only a few villages around the 5th century CE. We know that all paleo-Balkan populations were assimilated en masse into Slavic, Latin or Greek speaking ones, and massive Albanian migrations have been documented at least since around the 14th century.

My point is that if you find clades that Albanians dont have today, but the Arbereshe do, or several surrounding populations do, it is possible that they simply migrated or we're absorbed into other linguistic groups.

A. Papadimitriou
21-05-18, 08:30
Corovic also makes that connection between Matranga and Mataruga, but I don't think there is much there to go on besides the similar looking names. A year ago a Sicilian living in US with the last name 'Matranga' showed up as a match on my relatives list at 23andme and he is not V13.

It's quite possible that they were Albanian judging by their tribes name (matane rruge - which translates to across the street) but wouldn't rule out the Vlah possibility either.

The surname Mataragas and toponyms Mataraga/Mataragata exist here and they are associated either with medieval Albanians or people from South Italy or Italy in general (?) but I am not sure about the etymology you propose.

One blogger had noticed that some non-Greek surnames in regions of West Greece which had Italic influence, esp. Eptanisa were mixed surnames, for example the modern Greek surname Vardakastanis from surnames Varda+Castagni. (which exist in NW Italy and around Emilia-Romana/Lombardy/Tuscany/Lazio respectively)


If we consider that possible, in that case, we can propose different etymologies for hypothetical surnames *Mata- and *Raga-. I am not sure about that either.

I also thought if it can be related to the Italian surname Matarazzo or a similar surname, which is more common in Campania.

Zanatis
21-05-18, 15:56
The thing with Albanians is that today's Albanians are very likely the decendants of only a fraction of the Albanian speaking people of the early middle ages. The current genetic diversity is quite low and it has been calculated that the ancestors of modern Albanians amount to only a few villages around the 5th century CE. We know that all paleo-Balkan populations were assimilated en masse into Slavic, Latin or Greek speaking ones, and massive Albanian migrations have been documented at least since around the 14th century.

My point is that if you find clades that Albanians dont have today, but the Arbereshe do, or several surrounding populations do, it is possible that they simply migrated or we're absorbed into other linguistic groups.
I see you support and try to share this theory a lot but I don't believe it's the case at all and even your evidence points out the same.

It is true that there were Albanian migrations moving southward, but it is also true that there was not a single period without Albanian migrations or human migrations for that matter. People move, you know.

What you seem to not understand and I don't blame you for that is that just because some Albanians moved from North to South, doesn't mean there were no Albanians in South. They simply "pushed" South Albanians even further South into Greece and then Italy. Evidence of that? Different local dialect and different haplogroups in Arvanites and Arbereshe.

And a fun fact for you, the migrations and changes within the Albanian dialects weren't really North to South but rather East to West and South-West. This Western group of Albanian dialects share similarities with each other from Herzegovina down to South Epirus and then what would become Arvanitika later, while the regions of modern Albania became more and more "Eastern Albanian", so basically hybridized.

Ownstyler
21-05-18, 17:03
I see you support and try to share this theory a lot but I don't believe it's the case at all and even your evidence points out the same.

It is true that there were Albanian migrations moving southward, but it is also true that there was not a single period without Albanian migrations or human migrations for that matter. People move, you know.

What you seem to not understand and I don't blame you for that is that just because some Albanians moved from North to South, doesn't mean there were no Albanians in South. They simply "pushed" South Albanians even further South into Greece and then Italy. Evidence of that? Different local dialect and different haplogroups in Arvanites and Arbereshe.

And a fun fact for you, the migrations and changes within the Albanian dialects weren't really North to South but rather East to West and South-West. This Western group of Albanian dialects share similarities with each other from Herzegovina down to South Epirus and then what would become Arvanitika later, while the regions of modern Albania became more and more "Eastern Albanian", so basically hybridized.

Did you mean to quote someone else? I don't see how anything I said contradicts anything you said. I never said there were no Albanians in the South or anywhere else, quite the contrary. Albanian speakers in regions that are not in Albania today have been historically assimilated into other linguistic groups.

Leka
21-05-18, 20:32
The surname Mataragas and toponyms Mataraga/Mataragata exist here and they are associated either with medieval Albanians or people from South Italy or Italy in general (?) but I am not sure about the etymology you propose.

One blogger had noticed that some non-Greek surnames in regions of West Greece which had Italic influence, esp. Eptanisa were mixed surnames, for example the modern Greek surname Vardakastanis from surnames Varda+Castagni. (which exist in NW Italy and around Emilia-Romana/Lombardy/Tuscany/Lazio respectively)


If we consider that possible, in that case, we can propose different etymologies for hypothetical surnames *Mata- and *Raga-. I am not sure about that either.

I also thought if it can be related to the Italian surname Matarazzo or a similar surname, which is more common in Campania.

Exactly, even the Matranga from southern Italy are of Arbereshe origin.

The etymology I proposed was for the Mataruge clan/population, not Matranga - and it might be just a coincidence. I am not a linguist so not able to expand more into it. However, we were speaking of two different unrelated families. Matranga had their territories between Durres and Vlore, while Mataruge trace their origins to Montenegro.

LABERIA
21-05-18, 21:24
The Matranga (Albanian: Matrënga[1]) was an Albanian noble family during 13th and 15th centuries. Members of this family include local rulers, Byzantine officials and writers. After the occupation of Albania by the Ottoman Empire, part of the family emigrated to Italy and settled in the Arbëresh villages of Southern Italy, where they have continued to preserve the Albanian language.
There are many Arbëresh people in USA, especially in Louisiana with surname Matranga. Probably the surname Matraku used today in Albania is another form of this surname. Most famous, kapedan Shahin Matraku.

Kelmendasi
21-05-18, 22:11
I see you support and try to share this theory a lot but I don't believe it's the case at all and even your evidence points out the same.

It is true that there were Albanian migrations moving southward, but it is also true that there was not a single period without Albanian migrations or human migrations for that matter. People move, you know.

What you seem to not understand and I don't blame you for that is that just because some Albanians moved from North to South, doesn't mean there were no Albanians in South. They simply "pushed" South Albanians even further South into Greece and then Italy. Evidence of that? Different local dialect and different haplogroups in Arvanites and Arbereshe.

And a fun fact for you, the migrations and changes within the Albanian dialects weren't really North to South but rather East to West and South-West. This Western group of Albanian dialects share similarities with each other from Herzegovina down to South Epirus and then what would become Arvanitika later, while the regions of modern Albania became more and more "Eastern Albanian", so basically hybridized.
I think he's just saying that certain lineages that were present in the old/medieval Albanians may not be present in modern day Albanians due to assimilation of some Albanians into other ethnic groups.

Ownstyler
21-05-18, 23:26
I think he's just saying that certain lineages that were present in the old/medieval Albanians may not be present in modern day Albanians due to assimilation of some Albanians into other ethnic groups.


Yes, that's exactly what I said.

kuzmosi
22-05-18, 00:31
I don't want to harm anyone, but I have a question: Are today albanians really descendants of ancient illyrians? I fyes, what does this prove?

I know, the illyrians have come to the West Balkans for 3000 years ago from north. The CTS9320 has broken into 6 main branches for 3000 years ago too. I think some of them move south with the illyrians, but other parts stay at home, or move west and became a part of the Hallstatt culture. 500 years later, with the celtic migration spread across Europe. This could be the second CTS9320 wave on the Balkans. I think the third came with the goths and the fourth with the slavs. It seems in the VII. century came a fifth CTS9320 wave, with the bolgars. And we think, the CTS9320 was also present among the cumans (Aspurg and me). Each wave had the same subclades. We need more accurate samples (BigY or Whole Genom Sequence, or other complete Y chr analysis) to clarify this image. Which subgroup was dominant in which wave.

Mikulic33
29-05-18, 01:24
Hi Maleth,

I just would like to add some info because it concerns my subclade and my sample. First of all, I am the Bosnian sample under BY5423 and I am not belonging to an old family of Poblacani-Pljevlja (Montenegro) ;-) Secondly, DYS19 is very tricky and in my opinion not very reliable to distinguish the subclades under Y18360. There is a new sample from Bulgaria under BY5423 with a value of 13, on the other hand we have two Attards from Malta under A7135, one with 13 and the other with 14. Further, the TMRCA estimation is relatively low because the Macedonian sample has only 4 detected private SNPs, I and another relevant BIG-Y sample have on the other hand each 9 private SNPs. My private SNPs will be taken into consideration by YFull once my Bam-file is batched.

However, I am very interested in this Malta-Balkans connection and I suggest that you consider testing a SNP-panel of 7 SNPs with YSeq (103$) which should cover all known subclades beneath A7135. If you are interested, I could suggest a list of relevant SNPs.

Cheers
Elton

Dnjpz
04-06-18, 15:39
There must be one more big correction to the E-V13 tree. The V13 project has discovered, and it has been also confirmed by FTDNA in its new tree, that under CTS5856 exist 3 major branches - S3003/L540, Z16663/Y3593 and BY3880. All of the rest and even the former CTS5856* fall under BY3880. This proves that S3003/L540 and Z16663 are older than Z5017, Z5018, S7461, etc.
Another thing is that just L540 and Z16663 are missing from the Southern Balkans for now (The Pontic Greeks are Eastern Anatolian, not Balkanites), which proves that E-V13 originally expanded into the Balkans and not from it.

Actualy there is one Z16663 confirmed found in Croatia recently, and another one highly probable, you can find them in FTDNA Croatia DNA resuls table.

With sublcade Z43289

Maleth
10-06-18, 11:12
Hi Maleth,

I just would like to add some info because it concerns my subclade and my sample. First of all, I am the Bosnian sample under BY5423 and I am not belonging to an old family of Poblacani-Pljevlja (Montenegro) ;-) Secondly, DYS19 is very tricky and in my opinion not very reliable to distinguish the subclades under Y18360. There is a new sample from Bulgaria under BY5423 with a value of 13, on the other hand we have two Attards from Malta under A7135, one with 13 and the other with 14. Further, the TMRCA estimation is relatively low because the Macedonian sample has only 4 detected private SNPs, I and another relevant BIG-Y sample have on the other hand each 9 private SNPs. My private SNPs will be taken into consideration by YFull once my Bam-file is batched.

However, I am very interested in this Malta-Balkans connection and I suggest that you consider testing a SNP-panel of 7 SNPs with YSeq (103$) which should cover all known subclades beneath A7135. If you are interested, I could suggest a list of relevant SNPs.

Cheers
Elton

Hi Mikulic33 Thank you for your insight. I sent you a pvt msg...hope it gets to you :)

Mikulic33
10-06-18, 20:16
Hi Mikulic33 Thank you for your insight. I sent you a pvt msg...hope it gets to you :)

Hi Maleth,
I received your message and replied but I am not sure whether my reply got through.

Shetop
17-06-18, 13:34
Part of the E-V13 tree under the CTS9320:

https://i.imgur.com/kVqOYDo.png

Kaser
18-07-18, 17:37
Can you give me any information about Z16242 (Z5018)? I can't find anything about it.

Also, Z16242 and L17's seem to have this connection in both Portugal/England, how so?

Aspar
18-07-18, 22:47
Z19851 does have certain connections with Vlachs, being found twice in Aromanian study, and interestingly not one such haplotype among Albanians but it is found in Aromanians from Albania. Generally Aromanians and Albanians seem quite different genetically, I think there might not be an SNP younger than 2000 years that they share. It's only strange that it appears among Arberesh. Also there are two E-Z19851 Bulgarians who seem only little over 1000 years distant. So bar the Arberesh, this does seem like a "Vlach clade". Actually if this clade came from Bulgaria with Vlachs, it could be actually Celtic (as simo suggested) looking at it's TMRCA and spread (N.Italy, England, Scotland..).
I think you are right about E-Z19851.
I also observed a patern that certain clades under S7461, Y16729 and J-M205 have similar distribution and are found in the British Isles, the Balkans and the Persian gulf.
What is more important is that many of those clades in the Persian gulf(f.e J-Y128487; E-BY5787) , have MRCA around 1600ybp and 1700ybp according YFULL.
That's during the height of the Roman Empire and most probably, the single factor, why those clades are in the Persian gulf.
During the reign of Trajan, 117ad, the Romans conquered Mesopotamia all the way down to the Persian gulf.
Other clades, found in the Balkans, (f.e J-Y22059, the two Bulgarians under E-Z19851), have MRCA around 1000ybp.
That's around the same time when the Vlachs first showed up in history and started migrating and assimilating into other ethnicities.
Most probably, I have MRCA with my match around the same time as shown by the calculators.
Interestingly, these clades are not found among the Albanians apart from J-M205 which is miniscule among them and most probably of Vlach origin.
That goes well with the tribal history of the Albanians and that they were 'givers' rather than receivers (assimilating others).
This can also put some light on the origins of the Vlachs and that most probably they have emerged from the retired Roman legioners and colonists in the Balkans with very different origins.
The only catalytic factor among them was the Latin language and that would explain why they never had strong national unity and were easiest to be assimilated.

Leka
19-07-18, 05:26
This can also put some light on the origins of the Vlachs and that most probably they have emerged from the retired Roman legioners and colonists in the Balkans with very different origins.
The only catalytic factor among them was the Latin language and that would explain why they never had strong national unity and were easiest to be assimilated.

Probably true for some of them, but most certainly not all. Good part were probably Latinized locals, Thracians, Illyrians etc - and they don't seem to be homogeneous either, which perfectly illustrates their divers origins to my opinion. Aromanians from Albania for example that have been tested thus far, from Dukas and Andon Poci, from the Bosch et al study, don't seem to show any affinity to other Aromanian groups from other regions. They in fact seem quite similar to Albanians, specifically Tosks who they live amongst, with their BY611 and J2b2 clusters.

Aspar
19-07-18, 18:58
Probably true for some of them, but most certainly not all. Good part were probably Latinized locals, Thracians, Illyrians etc - and they don't seem to be homogeneous either, which perfectly illustrates their divers origins to my opinion. Aromanians from Albania for example that have been tested thus far, from Dukas and Andon Poci, from the Bosch et al study, don't seem to show any affinity to other Aromanian groups from other regions. They in fact seem quite similar to Albanians, specifically Tosks who they live amongst, with their BY611 and J2b2 clusters.

I've answered to you in the thread for the Vlach's origin so to not hijack this thread!

xandrbar
21-08-18, 18:28
Maciamo: I believe I may be the BY6527 on your May 18, 2018 phylogenetic tree of Haplogroup E1b1b. Assuming I am correct, and I don't know whether it makes any difference, but my father's family was actually from Sicily. Until my father's generation (20th Century) they did not even consider themselves to be Italian.
In any event thought I would just point this out since I think it is possible that Sicily would be different than Italy in the Middle Ages.

xandrbar
21-08-18, 18:35
Middle Bronze Age. Can't figure out how to edit an error. Sorry.

TomasV
30-08-18, 19:46
The V13 project has discovered, and it has been also confirmed by FTDNA in its new tree, that under CTS5856 exist 3 major branches - S3003/L540, Z16663/Y3593 and BY3880.

This must be true . I did an FT37 and just got today that I am Z16663 . However I don't see Z16663 on the tree . Where do I belong then (I am a total haplogroup newbie) ?
Btw my paternal grandfather did a huge work on our genealogy and could find our paternal ancestors up to the 14th century .
They were all from/near a village in Moravia some 40 km south of Brno .

Shetop
30-08-18, 20:05
This must be true . I did an FT37 and just got today that I am Z16663 . However I don't see Z16663 on the tree . Where do I belong then (I am a total haplogroup newbie) ?
Btw my paternal grandfather did a huge work on our genealogy and could find our paternal ancestors up to the 14th century .
They were all from/near a village in Moravia some 40 km south of Brno .

Z16663 = Y35953
See here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y35953/

TomasV
30-08-18, 20:35
Thanks . As a mathematicians I struggle with the concept that same things are designed by totally different symbols - there is not a single symbol identical between Z16663 and Y35953 :)
So why did FT tell me that I was Z16663 instead of Y35953 ?
I see now that it is on the left side . And what means then the PF6784 below it ? As there is only one branch shouldn't I be rather PF6784 ?

Maciamo
30-08-18, 20:46
Thanks . As a mathematicians I struggle with the concept that same things are designed by totally different symbols - there is not a single symbol identical between Z16663 and Y35953 :)
So why did FT tell me that I was Z16663 instead of Y35953 ?
I see now that it is on the left side . And what means then the PF6784 below it ? As there is only one branch shouldn't I be rather PF6784 ?

I have explained it here (https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/phylogenetic_trees_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#Introduction).

amegnun
30-08-18, 22:17
These graphics are interesting. What is your sources ? On what basis have you made these trees ?
I have updated and expanded the phylogenetic tree of haplogroup E-V13. I changed the layout to show when each clade developed in time so as to get a better idea of when the regional expansions happened.Many branches of the tree are still missing. There are few Greek, Italian, French and Iberian samples tested for deep clades and hardly any West Asian ones at all except from the Gulf states.Click on the tree to get to the page outside the forum and click once more to see it in full screen.

makisapoo
14-09-18, 00:30
I'm also E-Z16988 . If you are interested in further discussion about this branch we both belong to feel free to send me a private message (here on the forum). One of the things which you might be interested in is a recently discovered A11837 subbranch below Z16988.

I would be interested in learning more about this subclade (I just tested via YSEQ and I am E-Z16988*). I wanted to end you a private message as well, but for whatever reason, I am unable to do so (perhaps due to low post count).

Shetop
14-09-18, 19:16
I would be interested in learning more about this subclade (I just tested via YSEQ and I am E-Z16988*). I wanted to end you a private message as well, but for whatever reason, I am unable to do so (perhaps due to low post count).

I responded through PM.

MikoDrago
16-10-18, 17:23
Hi Maciamo, this is an amazing job you're doing!


I have a question regarding PH1246 - branch of E-V13 that is for some reason not being talked at all on this forum. PH1246 > BY14151 was not included into your tree and that is a branch present only in Serb-Montenegrin clan of Vasojevici, as well as Bobani clan of East Herzegovina (Vasojevici claim Herzegovina origin so these are clearly related). But Vasojevici are not related to any other E-V13 populations living just next to them. For example Bjelopavlici (Serb-Montenegrins) and Kelmendi (Albanians) are E-V13>Z1057>CTS5856>BY3380>Z5017>Z5016>Y3762>CTS6377>CTS9320>Z16988 and Kuci (Serb-Montenegrins) are E-V13>Z1057>CTS5856>BY3380>Z5018>S2979>Z16659>Y3183>S2972>Z16661. So Vasojevici, being not a CTS5856 but a PH1246 branch, have a common ancestor with these neighboring clans that is 4,5 thousand years old!


How is that possible? Any explanation for this?
Also, doesn't this very distant relation of E-V13 clans living next to each other confirm Balkan origin of E-V13?


Thanks again!

digital_noise
16-10-18, 22:00
Im at this point E-PH1246 as well, at least until my Big Y results show up next month...

All I can find about this subclade is this Vasojevici talk and little else.

Paternal side is from Calabria

Peyron
04-11-18, 13:01
My Big Y results also show me to be in the PH1246 > BY14151 subclade and my paternal line traces back to northern Andros, Greece. There is a small Arvanite community (Albanians who arrived to Greece in late Middle Ages). My paternal surname however is suspected to originate from Italy--Andros was once Venetian territory.

PH1246 and its smaller clades (including BY14151) seem to be relatively less tested.

digital_noise
05-11-18, 19:48
have you joined any of the FTDNA groups? My Big Y results are due any day and I am really curious as to where I land

Valbogdan
11-11-18, 04:17
My parents are from northwestern macedonia, about 3 miles from Serbia Kacanik border. My roots come from Urosevac and prior to that a village from Strpce municipality called Kostanjevo. I tested 3.5yrs ago for E-V13, and i took the big y last year. The big y wasnt able to catergories me in a subclade, therefore im in limbo at BY3880. Im rather frustrated because all from that area generally fall within a couple of the same subclades. So im wondering why would i be any different when im literally from the epicenter of E-V13. THOUGHTS comments appreciated...

arctangent
11-11-18, 21:02
I tested 3.5yrs ago for E-V13, and i took the big y last year. The big y wasnt able to catergories me in a subclade, therefore im in limbo at BY3880.

Isn't it possible that you aren't in a lower-level subclade?

The subclades are groups of people that have inherited specific yDNA mutations from the parent clade. If your line's yDNA has not changed significantly (and heritably), wouldn't you still be in E-BY3880? Or is that clade too old to have possibly stayed intact?

vxr400
13-11-18, 19:04
My parents are from northwestern macedonia, about 3 miles from Serbia Kacanik border. My roots come from Urosevac and prior to that a village from Strpce municipality called Kostanjevo. I tested 3.5yrs ago for E-V13, and i took the big y last year. The big y wasnt able to catergories me in a subclade, therefore im in limbo at BY3880. Im rather frustrated because all from that area generally fall within a couple of the same subclades. So im wondering why would i be any different when im literally from the epicenter of E-V13. THOUGHTS comments appreciated...

I don't have an explanation, but the situation sounds familiar.

Soon after my Walk-through-the-Y test in 2012 had detected what was at that time my single unique SNP, E-L1019, I had asked a Y37 of unknown origin (33/37 match), a Y31 from Bulgaria, and a Y31 from Greece who both matched me closely to take the E-L1019 single-SNP test. All three tests were E-L1019-, and now 6 years later: 1) the Y37 of unknown origin and the Y31 from Greece are both still E-CTS5856*, 2) the Y31 from Bulgaria remained E-CTS5856* for a time, but eventually tested Z5017+, Z19851+.

Depending on the Y-SNP test you took, an available branch connecting you to the haplotree could be accessible in a test with greater coverage. The coverage of E-Z5017 and its subclades in the Big Y test is extensive, but my main branch E-Z5018 was not covered, but was covered in the Y-Elite test. The 2018 ISOGG tree still shows S2979, L17, A2192, Z17293 and Z16242 as independent subclades of V13 rather than as subclades of Z5018, and Z5018 is not shown anywhere in the haplotree.

vxr400
13-11-18, 19:46
Can you give me any information about Z16242 (Z5018)? I can't find anything about it.

Also, Z16242 and L17's seem to have this connection in both Portugal/England, how so?

I am one of the rare E-A160/Z16242+ from England, which is currently confined to a single family that traces its earliest-known-Y-ancestors to Felsham, Suffolk
(1327-1570 in all 3 lines, producing 4 immigrant Y-descendants: 2 brothers (one Y-descendant of the younger brother is YF05423 in the YFull tree), one of their Y-first-cousins (YF05422), and one of their Y-second-cousins (YF05421), came to what is now the USA in 1635, 1634, 1645; respectively).


All 3 immigrant lines are E-Z5018+, E-Z16242+, E-L1019+ (Z5018 was covered in my Y-Elite 2.0 test taken in 2015, but was not covered in Big Y test taken in 2013; E-Z5018+ was confirmed by YSEQ).

The only other E-Z16242+ I am aware of at this time are:
1) one anonymous 1000 Genomes kit (HG01107) from Puerto Rico with no stated earliest-known-Y-ancestor location, who is E-Z16242+, E-L1019-,
2) two E-Z16242+, E-L1019- V68 SNP panel kits from Brazil; one of which has a stated earliest-known-Y-ancestor from Portugal.

I am not aware that E-L17 or E-Z16242 have been found in the Balkans at this point, though other E-Z5018 subclades such as E-A2192, E-Z17293, and especially E-S2979 are found in the Balkans. The E-L17 observation is older; the E-Z16242 discovery and observation came after Lacan et al. published in 2011 their finding of ancient E-V13 on the Iberian Peninsula: "Ancient DNA suggests the leading role played by men in the Neolithic dissemination."

Admittedly even now 6 years into NGS-SNP testing it is too soon to say that E-L17 and E-Z16242 will never be found in the Balkans, but until they are, another possible theory has been that E-L17 and/or E-A160/E-Z16242 were brought to the Roman Province of Hispania by E-Z5018 carriers, possibly at a time after the encroachment of the Roman Empire into the Iberian Peninsula from 220 BCE onward.

Regarding the latter possibility, I have been studying for the past three years the 833-page Ph.D. dissertation of the late Prof. Margaret Roxan (1924-2003; she was an expert authority on Roman military inscriptions): "The Auxilia of the Roman Army Raised in the Iberian Peninsula," and have seen so far: 1) one cavalry unit, Ala I Hispanorum, that has been attested at a number of sites that parallel contemporary sites where E-L17+ has been found so far in Germany and most notably in (Vlach)-Dacia/Romania, 2) two cavalry units: Ala I Hispanorum Asturum and Ala Hispanorum Vettonum, that were attested in Britannia/England before (A-H-Asturum may have been part of the original invasion in 43 CE), or at the time of (A-H-Vettonum) the destruction of the Roman retirement colony at Camulodunum; now Colchester, Essex (about 20 miles south of Felsham, Suffolk) during the Boudican Iceni Revolt of ~60 AD.

(You_Tube video re-enacts the annihilation of the Legio IX Hispana and an attached cavalry unit in the Battle of Camulodunum NW of Colchester, Essex near Great Wratting, Suffolk and Sturmer, Essex):
"Boudica: The Warrior Queen - Full Documentary" (42:09-44:36).

digital_noise
16-11-18, 21:07
My Big Y results also show me to be in the PH1246 > BY14151 subclade and my paternal line traces back to northern Andros, Greece. There is a small Arvanite community (Albanians who arrived to Greece in late Middle Ages). My paternal surname however is suspected to originate from Italy--Andros was once Venetian territory.

PH1246 and its smaller clades (including BY14151) seem to be relatively less tested.
Im now E-BY14160

Xisco
26-11-18, 20:39
Greetings to all the members. My name is Xisco, I'm from the island of Mallorca. My Haplogroup is E-Y33577

Xisco
26-11-18, 20:40
I am negative in E-FGC11450 the majority group of branch E-FGC11457. I share subclade E-BY4914 with a person from Plovdiv Bulgaria. I am investigating the origin of my branch, until now I am anchored in Central Macedonia in the TMRCA 2700 ybp.

E-V13 > E-Z1057 > E-CTS1273 > E-Z5018 > E-S2979 > E-FGC11457 > E-BY4914 > E-Y33577

Kaser
09-12-18, 18:25
I am one of the rare E-A160/Z16242+ from England, which is currently confined to a single family that traces its earliest-known-Y-ancestors to Felsham, Suffolk
(1327-1570 in all 3 lines, producing 4 immigrant Y-descendants: 2 brothers (one Y-descendant of the younger brother is YF05423 in the YFull tree), one of their Y-first-cousins (YF05422), and one of their Y-second-cousins (YF05421), came to what is now the USA in 1635, 1634, 1645; respectively).


All 3 immigrant lines are E-Z5018+, E-Z16242+, E-L1019+ (Z5018 was covered in my Y-Elite 2.0 test taken in 2015, but was not covered in Big Y test taken in 2013; E-Z5018+ was confirmed by YSEQ).

The only other E-Z16242+ I am aware of at this time are:
1) one anonymous 1000 Genomes kit (HG01107) from Puerto Rico with no stated earliest-known-Y-ancestor location, who is E-Z16242+, E-L1019-,
2) two E-Z16242+, E-L1019- V68 SNP panel kits from Brazil; one of which has a stated earliest-known-Y-ancestor from Portugal.

I am not aware that E-L17 or E-Z16242 have been found in the Balkans at this point, though other E-Z5018 subclades such as E-A2192, E-Z17293, and especially E-S2979 are found in the Balkans. The E-L17 observation is older; the E-Z16242 discovery and observation came after Lacan et al. published in 2011 their finding of ancient E-V13 on the Iberian Peninsula: "Ancient DNA suggests the leading role played by men in the Neolithic dissemination."

Admittedly even now 6 years into NGS-SNP testing it is too soon to say that E-L17 and E-Z16242 will never be found in the Balkans, but until they are, another possible theory has been that E-L17 and/or E-A160/E-Z16242 were brought to the Roman Province of Hispania by E-Z5018 carriers, possibly at a time after the encroachment of the Roman Empire into the Iberian Peninsula from 220 BCE onward.

Regarding the latter possibility, I have been studying for the past three years the 833-page Ph.D. dissertation of the late Prof. Margaret Roxan (1924-2003; she was an expert authority on Roman military inscriptions): "The Auxilia of the Roman Army Raised in the Iberian Peninsula," and have seen so far: 1) one cavalry unit, Ala I Hispanorum, that has been attested at a number of sites that parallel contemporary sites where E-L17+ has been found so far in Germany and most notably in (Vlach)-Dacia/Romania, 2) two cavalry units: Ala I Hispanorum Asturum and Ala Hispanorum Vettonum, that were attested in Britannia/England before (A-H-Asturum may have been part of the original invasion in 43 CE), or at the time of (A-H-Vettonum) the destruction of the Roman retirement colony at Camulodunum; now Colchester, Essex (about 20 miles south of Felsham, Suffolk) during the Boudican Iceni Revolt of ~60 AD.

(You_Tube video re-enacts the annihilation of the Legio IX Hispana and an attached cavalry unit in the Battle of Camulodunum NW of Colchester, Essex near Great Wratting, Suffolk and Sturmer, Essex):
"Boudica: The Warrior Queen - Full Documentary" (42:09-44:36).

hello, it's very nice to meet you! I am one of those Z16242+ L1019- and also Z2162- (the Puerto Rican guy's clade), so what you're saying gives me the idea that some iberians went to british isles and not the other way around, a long time ago. I've sent you a private message, and i'm looking forward to do my bigY, so far I bought V13Pack and Y67., My clossest match in Y67 is a guy from puertorico (distance -7 his clade is shown as E-M35, so he hasn't test any snp) and I have some americans in Y37 (distance -4 - not SNP tested either.)

Edit: I've seen this other brazilian person who's E-Z16242, but I only match him at Y12 level, and nothing else, in other tests Y25/37/67 he's absent.

asapiens
21-12-18, 07:43
Because it is relatively young and widespread, more useful for the origin of CTS9320 is to look at it's immediate parent clades:

1. E-CTS6377 includes Bulgarian from Stara Zagora area, also Greek Vlahopoulos with close STR matches and Medieval common ancestry with a Bulgarian. Vlachs are not native to Greece so Vlahopulos (his surname might be an indication of his origins) must have arrived from north relatively recently.
Andalusian cluster of Spanish CTS6377, not yet on Yfull, their distance to Bulgarian is around 2700 ypb, it's on 67 markers so not as reliable like it is on 111 but what is important is that they both share the distinct STR values of dys385=14-18 and GATAH4=10. So these values for CTS6377 are old and it is fully justifiable to look for them in CTS6377 candidates. One of very few such candidates from anonymous studies is an Ukrainian haplotype from Lviv area, it is highly likely he is also CTS6377. Other than him I have not seen any other good CTS6377 candidates.

I’m CTS6377. I testedNegative for CTS9320 for my Big Y (FTDNA). I see CTS9320 has substantial subgroups within it. I’m wondering if CTS6377 has other subgroupsbesides CTS9320?
My kit number is 803702 and I’m part of the large M-35 FTDNAgroup they have. Is there one for SK888or lower, basically where we are.
Anyway, I saw you were looking for terminal CTS6377 and I’mthe only one that I know of.
Thanks!
Asapiens

Aspurg
22-12-18, 13:50
I’m CTS6377. I testedNegative for CTS9320 for my Big Y (FTDNA). I see CTS9320 has substantial subgroups within it. I’m wondering if CTS6377 has other subgroupsbesides CTS9320?
My kit number is 803702 and I’m part of the large M-35 FTDNAgroup they have. Is there one for SK888or lower, basically where we are.
Anyway, I saw you were looking for terminal CTS6377 and I’mthe only one that I know of.
Thanks!
Asapiens


Hello, I know of you, you are of this closely related Spanish-French cluster (3/67). You're not close to the Balkan cluster of Bulgarian (624175) and Greek (48544): 17/67, and they are 5/37 between themselves so Medieval times, I'd say Greek must have Vlach ancestry (also his surname suggests that).

Thus far the Bulgarian sample is the lone non-CTS9320 CTS6377 at Yfull, and it would be very useful if you were to order YFull analysis (which is cheap), in order to determine the exact distance between you. Also you will surely form a new clade with YF09951 because you share multiple non-modal STR's such as dys385a=14, GATAH4=10, dys464a=13 despite not being close to each other.

Kaser
22-12-18, 18:25
I don't have an explanation, but the situation sounds familiar.

Soon after my Walk-through-the-Y test in 2012 had detected what was at that time my single unique SNP, E-L1019, I had asked a Y37 of unknown origin (33/37 match), a Y31 from Bulgaria, and a Y31 from Greece who both matched me closely to take the E-L1019 single-SNP test. All three tests were E-L1019-, and now 6 years later: 1) the Y37 of unknown origin and the Y31 from Greece are both still E-CTS5856*, 2) the Y31 from Bulgaria remained E-CTS5856* for a time, but eventually tested Z5017+, Z19851+.

Depending on the Y-SNP test you took, an available branch connecting you to the haplotree could be accessible in a test with greater coverage. The coverage of E-Z5017 and its subclades in the Big Y test is extensive, but my main branch E-Z5018 was not covered, but was covered in the Y-Elite test. The 2018 ISOGG tree still shows S2979, L17, A2192, Z17293 and Z16242 as independent subclades of V13 rather than as subclades of Z5018, and Z5018 is not shown anywhere in the haplotree.

hello, I'm trying to PM you, it says your inbox is full. thank you.

TomasV
24-09-19, 20:16
An update.
Y111 put me in E-Z21371 (V13>CTS8814>CTS5856>E-Z16663>E-Z21371) . Big Y in progress .
Origin southern Moravia with paper trail to end 15th century .

PaschalisB
30-09-19, 13:29
I created a map of CTS9320 based on some projects from Family Tree DNA.

11462
https://imgur.com/5BzrRBWhttps://imgur.com/5BzrRBW
Its distribution reminds me of both I-M423 and R1a-M458. Its origin must have been somewhere along the Northwest Coast of the Black Sea and it could have been common among the Dacians. I believe that the Goths first brought CTS9320 into South Balkans and North Italy and then the early Slavs carried more of it into Balkans and Central Europe.

Nik
30-09-19, 15:27
I created a map of CTS9320 based on some projects from Family Tree DNA.

11462
https://imgur.com/5BzrRBWhttps://imgur.com/5BzrRBW
Its distribution reminds me of both I-M423 and R1a-M458. Its origin must have been somewhere along the Northwest Coast of the Black Sea and it could have been common among the Dacians. I believe that the Goths first brought CTS9320 into South Balkans and North Italy and then the early Slavs carried more of it into Balkans and Central Europe.
You're being sarcastic right?

PaschalisB
30-09-19, 16:14
Why should I be sarcastic?

Kelmendasi
30-09-19, 16:25
I created a map of CTS9320 based on some projects from Family Tree DNA.

11462
https://imgur.com/5BzrRBWhttps://imgur.com/5BzrRBW
Its distribution reminds me of both I-M423 and R1a-M458. Its origin must have been somewhere along the Northwest Coast of the Black Sea and it could have been common among the Dacians. I believe that the Goths first brought CTS9320 into South Balkans and North Italy and then the early Slavs carried more of it into Balkans and Central Europe.
I highly doubt that the first CTS9320 clades arrived with the Goths during the Medieval. I also don't see how its distribution is like that of I-M423 or R-M458. CTS9320 is pretty diverse in the Balkans and there are multiple basal clades there which would pre-date any Medieval arrival. You could make a case that CTS9320 originated somewhere in the Eastern Balkans (Bulgaria area) or somewhere close, but an expansion with Slavs and Goths doesn't look that likely for many Balkan CTS9320 clades.

PaschalisB
30-09-19, 16:28
I highly doubt that the first CTS9320 clades arrived with the Goths during the Medieval. I also don't see how its distribution is like that of I-M423 or R-M458. CTS9320 is pretty diverse in the Balkans and there are multiple basal clades there which would pre-date any Medieval arrival. You could make a case that CTS9320 originated somewhere in the Eastern Balkans (Bulgaria area) or somewhere close, but an expansion with Slavs and Goths doesn't look that likely for many Balkan CTS9320 clades.

True, the origin could be in Bulgaria. But then who helped disperse the haplogroup in Central Europe and Germany?

Kelmendasi
30-09-19, 16:47
True, the origin could be in Bulgaria. But then who helped disperse the haplogroup in Central Europe and Germany?
That would depend on subclade. For example certain clades under Z16988 seem to have possibly been carried by Celtic speakers. There are also other clades under CTS9320 which could possibly be linked to Central European cultures or Italo-Celtic groups. E-Z25461 seems to have an Italo-Celtic association based on Yfull.

PaschalisB
30-09-19, 16:47
I highly doubt that the first CTS9320 clades arrived with the Goths during the Medieval. I also don't see how its distribution is like that of I-M423 or R-M458. CTS9320 is pretty diverse in the Balkans and there are multiple basal clades there which would pre-date any Medieval arrival. You could make a case that CTS9320 originated somewhere in the Eastern Balkans (Bulgaria area) or somewhere close, but an expansion with Slavs and Goths doesn't look that likely for many Balkan CTS9320 clades.

And I can't understand why you don't see the resemblance of the distribution of I-M423 and R-M458. As you can see in the map, E-CTS9320 is more common in the Balkans and then in Central-Eastern Europe, both areas with high percentages of the two aforementioned haplogroups.

PaschalisB
30-09-19, 16:50
That would depend on subclade. For example certain clades under Z16988 seem to have possibly been carried by Celtic speakers. There are also other clades under CTS9320 which could possibly be linked to Central European cultures or Italo-Celtic groups. E-Z25461 seems to have an Italo-Celtic association based on Yfull.

And how and where did it become Celtic?

Kelmendasi
30-09-19, 16:50
And I can't understand why you don't see the resemblance of the distribution of I-M423 and R-M458. As you can see in the map, E-CTS9320 is more common in the Balkans and then in Central-Eastern Europe, both areas with high percentages of the two aforementioned haplogroups.
I do kinda see a resemblance with I-M423 considering that M423 also has a high frequency in the Balkans and is also spread across Europe at lower frequencies. Though, R-M458 is heavily concentrated in Eastern Europe, where it reaches its highest percentages.

Kelmendasi
30-09-19, 17:01
And how and where did it become Celtic?
Can't exactly say how it became Celtic. We can assume that, based on current data, CTS9320 had origin somewhere in the Balkans (possibly Eastern-Carpathian area) from where it expanded. Some groups may have then entered Central Europe where they were picked up by the local cultures, such as the Hallstatt. As for where, possibly around the Northern Balkan border with Central Europe, depends.

PaschalisB
30-09-19, 17:17
So there could have been multiple origins for different clades of CTS9320. Dacian, Celtic, Goth and Early Slavic?

Kelmendasi
30-09-19, 18:54
So there could have been multiple origins for different clades of CTS9320. Dacian, Celtic, Goth and Early Slavic?
I do think that there are CTS9320 clades that are of Celtic or Daco-Thracian origin, or were present among them pretty early on and were involved in their expansions. However, I can't really think of any CTS9320 clade that could've arrived with the Slavic migrations.

PaschalisB
30-09-19, 20:00
I do think that there are CTS9320 clades that are of Celtic or Daco-Thracian origin, or were present among them pretty early on and were involved in their expansions. However, I can't really think of any CTS9320 clade that could've arrived with the Slavic migrations.

I mentioned the Early Slavic migrations because of the relatively strong presence of CTS9320 in Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland and West Ukraine.

Aspar
30-09-19, 20:57
I created a map of CTS9320 based on some projects from Family Tree DNA.
11462
https://imgur.com/5BzrRBWhttps://imgur.com/5BzrRBW
Its distribution reminds me of both I-M423 and R1a-M458. Its origin must have been somewhere along the Northwest Coast of the Black Sea and it could have been common among the Dacians. I believe that the Goths first brought CTS9320 into South Balkans and North Italy and then the early Slavs carried more of it into Balkans and Central Europe.
I was thinking about the same for a while and I think your thinking is not far from the truth...
This particular subclade(but not only this one) looks like it might have to do a lot of things with the Pontic steppe and the north Black Sea coast.
As such, I am tempted to connect it with the Scythians and also because we have a confirmed E-CTS1273 Scythian from Moldova.
But what is a Scythian?
Looking at all these 'Scythian' samples and how different autosomally they were, it seems that the only Scythian about them was the culture they accepted. So in other words, these Moldavian Scythians were people native to the area and assimilated into the Scythian society.
Probably all of this wouldn't have been so important if it wasn't for the Slavs and most importantly the South Slavs!
Because one striking feature that distinguishes the South Slavs from the other groups of Slavs is the higher incidence of haplogroup E related subclades among the former but not quite. The Ukrainians and the Carpathian Slavs known as Rusyns also have a lot of E related subclades among them, around 10% if I am not mistaken.
Furthermore, the Northern Slavs were never known as Slavs or Sclaveni among their neighbors but were known as 'Wends', 'Veneti' 'Veni' etc.
The term 'Sclaveni' was only used by the Byzantines first and later on in history it became an accepted term for all Slavic speakers.
In this regard, am on the opinion that the term 'Sclaveni' is only valid for the South Slavs as they were the first recorded with that name.
Therefore, we have now two variables that distinguishes the South Slavs from the rest, first is the higher incidence of E related subclades and the second is the name...
Now you probably already know what I am thinking about so here is some food for thought...
Could the name 'Sclaveni' as they were recorded by the Byzantines, be a sum of the names 'S(a)ka' as for Scythians and 'Veni' as for Wends?
We don't know how the Scythians were calling themselves but we do know that many people including the ancient Persians have recorded them as 'Saka'!

For the Achamenids, there were three types of Scythians: the Saka tayai paradraya ("beyond the sea", presumably between the Greeks and the Thracians on the Western side of the Black Sea)...
Even the Albanians and the Romanians are using the term 'Shka' when talking about their Slavic neighbors which could be related to Scythians or S(a)ka!
As for the Wends, the term 'Veneti' or 'Veni' were largely in use by the ancient historians and the Finns are still calling their Slavic neighbors as 'Veni'!

Kelmendasi
30-09-19, 21:40
I was thinking about the same for a while and I think your thinking is not far from the truth...
This particular subclade(but not only this one) looks like it might have to do a lot of things with the Pontic steppe and the north Black Sea coast.
As such, I am tempted to connect it with the Scythians and also because we have a confirmed E-CTS1273 Scythian from Moldova.
But what is a Scythian?
Looking at all these 'Scythian' samples and how different autosomally they were, it seems that the only Scythian about them was the culture they accepted. So in other words, these Moldavian Scythians were people native to the area and assimilated into the Scythian society.
Probably all of this wouldn't have been so important if it wasn't for the Slavs and most importantly the South Slavs!
Because one striking feature that distinguishes the South Slavs from the other groups of Slavs is the higher incidence of haplogroup E related subclades among the former but not quite. The Ukrainians and the Carpathian Slavs known as Rusyns also have a lot of E related subclades among them, around 10% if I am not mistaken.
Furthermore, the Northern Slavs were never known as Slavs or Sclaveni among their neighbors but were known as 'Wends', 'Veneti' 'Veni' etc.
The term 'Sclaveni' was only used by the Byzantines first and later on in history it became an accepted term for all Slavic speakers.
In this regard, am on the opinion that the term 'Sclaveni' is only valid for the South Slavs as they were the first recorded with that name.
Therefore, we have now two variables that distinguishes the South Slavs from the rest, first is the higher incidence of E related subclades and the second is the name...
Now you probably already know what I am thinking about so here is some food for thought...
Could the name 'Sclaveni' as they were recorded by the Byzantines, be a sum of the names 'S(a)ka' as for Scythians and 'Veni' as for Wends?
We don't know how the Scythians were calling themselves but we do know that many people including the ancient Persians have recorded them as 'Saka'!

Even the Albanians and the Romanians are using the term 'Shka' when talking about their Slavic neighbors which could be related to Scythians or S(a)ka!
As for the Wends, the term 'Veneti' or 'Veni' were largely in use by the ancient historians and the Finns are still calling their Slavic neighbors as 'Veni'!
The problem with this is that we have yet to see a clade under CTS9320 in the Balkans that can be accurately linked to the Slavic migrations. The major clades of CTS9320 in the Balkans all seem to have been present there since the Iron Age. The Central European clades under CTS9320 are more linked to Celtic speakers whilst the Eastern ones could be linked to the Dacians considering that there is a link to the Carpathians. As far as I know, the E-V13 in Rusyns is of local Carpathian origin.

Though I'm not sure whether a link between the Saka and South Slavs is accurate or likely, there does seem to have been some Iranic influence in the South Slavs. I have read historians suggest that the Serbs and Croats were originally ruled by an elite which was of Iranic origin, this has been suggested by how both of these words have possible Iranic etymologies. They suggest that over time this elite began speaking Slavic and adopted Slavic culture and traditions. Though this theory links them to the Alans and not Saka. It is still a theory however and there are other possible etymologies of these ethnonyms.

"Shkja/Shkje" has nothing to do with the Saka people. There are 2 theories as to the origin of the word. One theory states that it comes from the Venetian word "Schiavone" which referred to someone who spoke an incomprehensible language, whilst the other states that it comes from the Latin "Sclavus" which was used to denote Slavs but may have originally referred to other foreigners. The fact that this word is used to refer to all foreigners in the Arbereshe dialect of Albanian, suggests that it wasn't originally used only for Slavs. Though, now it is used to refer to Serbs.

Aspurg
30-09-19, 23:24
@PaschalisB Hey, what is your CTS9320 sublade? Most common in Greece is E-PH1173 subcluster of dys439=9.

Regarding CTS9320, to me looking at current evidence it resembles Basarabi culture. Parent clade E-CTS6377* is found in Bulgaria, this culture spread to the North to form much of subsequent Geto-Dacians. Especially looking at current situation it seems to have been common in core Dacian areas.

Second area of diversity is Central Balkan/Shop area also an area of Basarabi culture and subsequently associated with the Triballi.

Another area of diversity is Albania/Western Balkans. This is where maybe second option for CTS9320 might be explored: the Gava culture, which had movement to the South. Also what is interesting is that numerous Basarabi pottery was found in Illyrian Glasinac culture areas, so possibly some of these migrated there and formed part of this culture.

Aspar
30-09-19, 23:46
The problem with this is that we have yet to see a clade under CTS9320 in the Balkans that can be accurately linked to the Slavic migrations. The major clades of CTS9320 in the Balkans all seem to have been present there since the Iron Age. The Central European clades under CTS9320 are more linked to Celtic speakers whilst the Eastern ones could be linked to the Dacians considering that there is a link to the Carpathians. As far as I know, the E-V13 in Rusyns is of local Carpathian origin.

Though I'm not sure whether a link between the Saka and South Slavs is accurate or likely, there does seem to have been some Iranic influence in the South Slavs. I have read historians suggest that the Serbs and Croats were originally ruled by an elite which was of Iranic origin, this has been suggested by how both of these words have possible Iranic etymologies. They suggest that over time this elite began speaking Slavic and adopted Slavic culture and traditions. Though this theory links them to the Alans and not Saka. It is still a theory however and there are other possible etymologies of these ethnonyms.

"Shkja/Shkje" has nothing to do with the Saka people. There are 2 theories as to the origin of the word. One theory states that it comes from the Venetian word "Schiavone" which referred to someone who spoke an incomprehensible language, whilst the other states that it comes from the Latin "Sclavus" which was used to denote Slavs but may have originally referred to other foreigners. The fact that this word is used to refer to all foreigners in the Arbereshe dialect of Albanian, suggests that it wasn't originally used only for Slavs. Though, now it is used to refer to Serbs.

Thanks for the information about the word 'shkja'.
Anyway, to answer some of your questions...

The problem with this is that we have yet to see a clade under CTS9320 in the Balkans that can be accurately linked to the Slavic migrations.
Many of the clades under E in the Balkans show a common TMRCA in the early Medieval and also under CTS9320 as well...
That is an indicator of a migration in that period. Moreover, the brother clades and CTS9320* seem to have a lot of diversity up north from the southern Balkans...
That doesn't mean that some subclades of E weren't present in the South Balkans before the migration period, on contrary, many were as shown by that Thracian P189 sample from Bulgaria positive for E-V13.
But many clades also must have arrived with the Slavs as well in the migrations during the Medieval!

As for the Iranic influence, the Bulgarians have even more...
Many words in the Bulgarian language show Iranic connection and strangely enough those words are not present in the rest of the Slavic languages.
Some of the words are 'ubav'(beautiful); 'kuche'(dog); 'krpa'(flannel); 'karpa'(rock) etc...

Moreover, the grammar of the Bulgarian language is totally alien for the other Slavic languages...

Ownstyler
30-09-19, 23:56
Many of the clades under E in the Balkans show a common TMRCA in the early Medieval and also under CTS9320 as well...

It could very easily be just a bottleneck.


that Thracian P189 sample from Bulgaria positive for E-V13.

Any evidence of this? As far as I know, the person who claimed it to be E-V13 has not provided the SNP calls.

Kelmendasi
01-10-19, 00:44
Thanks for the information about the word 'shkja'.
Anyway, to answer some of your questions...

Many of the clades under E in the Balkans show a common TMRCA in the early Medieval and also under CTS9320 as well...
That is an indicator of a migration in that period. Moreover, the brother clades and CTS9320* seem to have a lot of diversity up north from the southern Balkans...
That doesn't mean that some subclades of E weren't present in the South Balkans before the migration period, on contrary, many were as shown by that Thracian P189 sample from Bulgaria positive for E-V13.
But many clades also must have arrived with the Slavs as well in the migrations during the Medieval!

As for the Iranic influence, the Bulgarians have even more...
Many words in the Bulgarian language show Iranic connection and strangely enough those words are not present in the rest of the Slavic languages.
Some of the words are 'ubav'(beautiful); 'kuche'(dog); 'krpa'(flannel); 'karpa'(rock) etc...

Moreover, the grammar of the Bulgarian language is totally alien for the other Slavic languages...
The lower TMRCA of these clades could very well be explained by bottlenecks, as was suggested by Ownstyler. Many Albanian/Balkan clades have TMRCA which would date back to the Early Medieval period, examples are J-PH1751 and R-Z2705. As was stated by Aspurg, CTS9320 itself reaches highest diversity in the Central and Western Balkans as well as CTS6377* being found in Bulgaria. Should also note that most of the Albanian/Balkan clades only share a common ancestor with the other Europeans over 2,000 years ago.

I have yet to see a clade under E-V13 in the Balkans that can be associated with the Slavic migrations. I do believe that they may have brought some, but it seems to have been negligible, at least in the case of Albanians. The only clade under V13 that I know of, which can be accurately linked to Slavs, is E-L540. L540 has yet to be found in the Balkans as far as I know.

Aspurg
01-10-19, 01:10
The only clade under V13 that I know of, which can be accurately linked to Slavs, is E-L540. L540 has yet to be found in the Balkans as far as I know.

It is likely found in few Serbs, they seem to match closely some Czechs or Slovaks from what I remember. Overall it's not apparent that some other clade spread with the Slavs. Though Rusyns have elevated V13 and also "E-M78" reaches 14 % in Ukrainian Zakarpatye from an unpublished study, Rusyn V13 seems local so likely descendant of Dacians, yet these do not have matches in the Balkans.

PaschalisB
01-10-19, 10:51
@PaschalisB Hey, what is your CTS9320 sublade? Most common in Greece is E-PH1173 subcluster of dys439=9.

Regarding CTS9320, to me looking at current evidence it resembles Basarabi culture. Parent clade E-CTS6377* is found in Bulgaria, this culture spread to the North to form much of subsequent Geto-Dacians. Especially looking at current situation it seems to have been common in core Dacian areas.

Second area of diversity is Central Balkan/Shop area also an area of Basarabi culture and subsequently associated with the Triballi.

Another area of diversity is Albania/Western Balkans. This is where maybe second option for CTS9320 might be explored: the Gava culture, which had movement to the South. Also what is interesting is that numerous Basarabi pottery was found in Illyrian Glasinac culture areas, so possibly some of these migrated there and formed part of this culture.

I have tested negative for most sublcades of CTS9320, PH1173 included. I have a DYS439=13.

Aspar
01-10-19, 10:59
It could very easily be just a bottleneck.

So many bottlenecks with a TMRCA in early Medieval? Strange coincidence...


Any evidence of this? As far as I know, the person who claimed it to be E-V13 has not provided the SNP calls.

I was referring to this: http://www.open-genomes.org/analysis/E-M35/E-M35_ancient_DNA_on_the_YFull_6.01_tree.html

Aspar
01-10-19, 11:10
The lower TMRCA of these clades could very well be explained by bottlenecks, as was suggested by Ownstyler. Many Albanian/Balkan clades have TMRCA which would date back to the Early Medieval period, examples are J-PH1751 and R-Z2705. As was stated by Aspurg, CTS9320 itself reaches highest diversity in the Central and Western Balkans as well as CTS6377* being found in Bulgaria. Should also note that most of the Albanian/Balkan clades only share a common ancestor with the other Europeans over 2,000 years ago.

I have yet to see a clade under E-V13 in the Balkans that can be associated with the Slavic migrations. I do believe that they may have brought some, but it seems to have been negligible, at least in the case of Albanians. The only clade under V13 that I know of, which can be accurately linked to Slavs, is E-L540. L540 has yet to be found in the Balkans as far as I know.


You probably mean of a subclade of E-V13 with Poles, Russians, Serbs, Bulgarians etc. on it for a clear Slavic marker?
I wasn't thinking about that and we probably won't find many such branches because simply E-V13 was not an important marker in the proto-Slavs.
When I say migration with the Slavs, I mean a migration with them but not necessarily a Slavic marker.
For example, the migrations in the early Medieval were a big scale migrations, a turbulence that was felt all over the continent and one migration could have ignited many different ones. It was like a domino effect.
So, a tribe of Dacians, Illyrians etc. assimilated into Slavs but not necessarily assimilated and arriving with the Slavs in Greece and the Southern Balkans is not out of place.
And this is not just for clades under CTS9320 but other ones as well.
Look at this one for example: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18833/
It has three samples, Bosniak at the top of the tree and a Serb and a Bulgarian underneath.
It has a perfect timing with a TMRCA of 1400 ybp.
You want necessarily find northern Slavs in this branch but to me it looks like a clear indication of a migration in that turbulent period into present day Bosnia, Serbia and Bulgaria.
The Italian guy with a star (*) on a parallel branch is from Lodi in Northern Italy and it may look like this branch has to do with the Celts or the Illyrians living close to Italy!

PaschalisB
01-10-19, 11:42
You probably mean of a subclade of E-V13 with Poles, Russians, Serbs, Bulgarians etc. on it for a clear Slavic marker?
I wasn't thinking about that and we probably won't find many such branches because simply E-V13 was not an important marker in the proto-Slavs.
When I say migration with the Slavs, I mean a migration with them but not necessarily a Slavic marker.
For example, the migrations in the early Medieval were a big scale migrations, a turbulence that was felt all over the continent and one migration could have ignited many different ones. It was like a domino effect.


You expressed what I meant much better than me, that's exactly what I meant.

PaschalisB
01-10-19, 13:48
CTS9320 is spread throughout Europe, though it is more concentrated in the Balkans and Central Europe. The TMRCA is 3000 ybp.
Here are its major subclades:
-Z16988 with a TMRCA 3000 ybp. The clade and its subclades can be found throughout Europe and I believe it could have originated within the Hallstat Culture. Its subclades could have then be spread westward and southward alongside R1b clades.
-Z17107 also has a TMRCA 3000 ybp. It has some pretty recent subclades in Hungary and the Balkans and it is compatible with a migration during the Middle Ages into the Balkans (Early Slavs? Another group?)
-Z17264 has a TMRCA 2500 ybp and it can be found in Greece, Italy, Turkey and the Balkans. There is also a recent subclade found in Norway. This one could be a greek subclade, spreading with the Ancient Greeks. (Maybe it arrived in Greece with the Dorians?)
-Z25461 with a TMRCA 2800 ybp. This subclade can be found in Italy and Central and Western Europe. It could also have spread with the Celts.
-Y20805 has a TMRCA 2700 ybp. It can be found in the Balkans and also in Poland, Ukraine and Sweden. I believe that this is a subclade that moved eastward from Central Europe and the spread westward again with the Goths or Slavs.
-Y84585 with a TMRCA 1150 ybp. This clade is found in the Balkans, Poland and Germany. I believe that the Slavs absorbed it and then spread it.


Where could CTS9320 have originated? Could it have originated in Central Europe and then travel throughout Europe at first with the Celts and then with the Goths and Early Slavs? Or could it have originated in the Balkans and then spread in different stages throughout Europe? What is for certain is that it is a very interesting haplogroup and I would like to learn more about it.

Kelmendasi
01-10-19, 16:29
You probably mean of a subclade of E-V13 with Poles, Russians, Serbs, Bulgarians etc. on it for a clear Slavic marker?
I wasn't thinking about that and we probably won't find many such branches because simply E-V13 was not an important marker in the proto-Slavs.
When I say migration with the Slavs, I mean a migration with them but not necessarily a Slavic marker.
For example, the migrations in the early Medieval were a big scale migrations, a turbulence that was felt all over the continent and one migration could have ignited many different ones. It was like a domino effect.
So, a tribe of Dacians, Illyrians etc. assimilated into Slavs but not necessarily assimilated and arriving with the Slavs in Greece and the Southern Balkans is not out of place.
And this is not just for clades under CTS9320 but other ones as well.
Look at this one for example: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18833/
It has three samples, Bosniak at the top of the tree and a Serb and a Bulgarian underneath.
It has a perfect timing with a TMRCA of 1400 ybp.
You want necessarily find northern Slavs in this branch but to me it looks like a clear indication of a migration in that turbulent period into present day Bosnia, Serbia and Bulgaria.
The Italian guy with a star (*) on a parallel branch is from Lodi in Northern Italy and it may look like this branch has to do with the Celts or the Illyrians living close to Italy!
Yfull doesn't always give the best representation. E-Z19851 for example is also carried by Bulgarians, Greeks, Albanians/Arbereshe and Vlachs. By the looks of it, it's very possible that most of its subclades are of Vlach origin. Evidence indicates that A18833 arrived in those regions from further south, iirc it is also carried by the Bjelica clan of Montenegro.

Kelmendasi
01-10-19, 16:33
So many bottlenecks with a TMRCA in early Medieval? Strange coincidence...
The native Balkan population (excluding Greeks), Albanians and Vlachs, did face population bottlenecks. That much is a fact. Based on evidence it is pretty clear that this bottleneck happened some time during the Slavic migrations. Don't see how this is a "strange coincidence", it's kinda expected. With this logic you could argue that clearly Albanian clades such as J-PH1751 and R-Z2705 are a result of Slavic migration, something which hold no water.

Kelmendasi
01-10-19, 16:40
-Y84585 with a TMRCA 1150 ybp. This clade is found in the Balkans, Poland and Germany. I believe that the Slavs absorbed it and then spread it.


Where could CTS9320 have originated? Could it have originated in Central Europe and then travel throughout Europe at first with the Celts and then with the Goths and Early Slavs? Or could it have originated in the Balkans and then spread in different stages throughout Europe? What is for certain is that it is a very interesting haplogroup and I would like to learn more about it.
The E-Z17107 in Albanians mainly falls under Z38456 and seems to have been present in the Balkans since the Iron Age, though looking at TMRCA it went through a bottleneck during the Medieval.

The TMRCA of 1,150ybp for E-Y84585 is based on 3 Albanian samples (The "Montenegrin" sample is actually an Albanian from Tirana), the Pole and German aren't accounted for so it's likely that the TMRCA will increase.

By the looks of it, origin in Central Europe is less likely than an origin in the Balkans. I believe that it originated somewhere around the Central or Western Balkans and then moved north into Central Europe, from where many clades expanded.

PaschalisB
01-10-19, 17:28
The E-Z17107 in Albanians mainly falls under Z38456 and seems to have been present in the Balkans since the Iron Age, though looking at TMRCA it went through a bottleneck during the Medieval.

The TMRCA of 1,150ybp for E-Y84585 is based on 3 Albanian samples (The "Montenegrin" sample is actually an Albanian from Tirana), the Pole and German aren't accounted for so it's likely that the TMRCA will increase.

By the looks of it, origin in Central Europe is less likely than an origin in the Balkans. I believe that it originated somewhere around the Central or Western Balkans and then moved north into Central Europe, from where many clades expanded.

Thanks for all this information. Do you have any additional information on Y20805?

Kelmendasi
01-10-19, 19:29
Thanks for all this information. Do you have any additional information on Y20805?
E-Y20805 seems to be a downstream of BY4526 judging by the FTDNA Y-Tree, on there it's known as E-BY4523. On FTDNA there seems to be a Pole, Belorussian and Ukrainian who form their own clade under BY4526, not sure if they are basal BY4526 or just form a new cluster. There is also a Swede who seems to be negative for other BY4526 clades.

The Bulgarian sample is E-Y20805. The downstream of Y20805, BY4543, is found in France. BY4543 has downstreams in Germany (BY34308) and Sweden (BY4540). Based on the info given, the German samples may originally be from areas around the Hunsruck mountain range in the Rhineland, though the map seems to place one of them in Northern Serbia (Backo Dobro Polje, Vojvodina). The Swedes may be from SW Sweden (Holo area).

Overall the TMRCA of BY4526 should be ~3,000ybp considering that Y20805 has a TMRCA of ~2,700ybp.

DRITINI
18-10-19, 00:00
I am also positive for Y20805 ( I am Albanian from Kosovo). I also know another Albanian tested positive for that. And there is one Bosnian guy with origin from Rozhaje (Montenegro -Kosovo bordering region) who was tested positive for this.

Kelmendasi
18-10-19, 00:14
I am also positive for Y20805 ( I am Albanian from Kosovo). I also know another Albanian tested positive for that. And there is one Bosnian guy with origin from Rozhaje (Montenegro -Kosovo bordering region) who was tested positive for this.
I wasn't aware of any Albanians that are positive for Y20805, have you joined the Albanian Bloodlines Project? I am also curious as to where the other Albanian guy is from and if you have any tribal affiliation. Bosniaks from Rozaje are primarily of Albanian origin (Kelmendi and Kuci clans).

DRITINI
18-10-19, 00:34
Hey Kelmendasi,
Yes we both ( the guy tested and me ) claim origin from Gashi tribe . The Bosnian guy is originally Kuçi ( with high probability) , as I found data in a book talking about his surname as part of the slavicized Kuçi. But our distance is big , with the other Gashi I have around 200 or more years.

DRITINI
18-10-19, 00:47
Kerko te projekti „Gjenetika Shqiptare“ Z37530. Une jam pozitiv per BY4524, ndersa ish edhe njo nga Gjirokastra vetem Z37530

Nik
18-10-19, 02:06
As for the Iranic influence, the Bulgarians have even more...
Many words in the Bulgarian language show Iranic connection and strangely enough those words are not present in the rest of the Slavic languages.
Some of the words are 'ubav'(beautiful); 'kuche'(dog); 'krpa'(flannel); 'karpa'(rock) etc...

Moreover, the grammar of the Bulgarian language is totally alien for the other Slavic languages...
Kuchi is also dog in Albanian, as is karpa (rock).

As for CTS9320, a Central European/North Balkan origin is likely according to a very detailed analysis done by a member here who's name I forgot. Some branches went south becoming Illyro-Thracian (eventually also Greek), while some other branches stayed or moved West and contributed to the populations they're found today (Celts, Germans, Slavs, etc.).

I've increasingly noticed a common route of early migrations as jumping from the Carpathian Mountains to the Alps with different directions in the middle somewhere in Pannonia (Hungary), then from the Alps to Northern Spain, with another dispersion.

Aspar
18-10-19, 14:28
Kuchi is also dog in Albanian, as is karpa (rock).

As for CTS9320, a Central European/North Balkan origin is likely according to a very detailed analysis done by a member here who's name I forgot. Some branches went south becoming Illyro-Thracian (eventually also Greek), while some other branches stayed or moved West and contributed to the populations they're found today (Celts, Germans, Slavs, etc.).

I've increasingly noticed a common route of early migrations as jumping from the Carpathian Mountains to the Alps with different directions in the middle somewhere in Pannonia (Hungary), then from the Alps to Northern Spain, with another dispersion.

Well yeah. there are similarities with the Albanian language as well especially when it comes to the grammar.
Check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund

As for CTS9320, it's indeed from a Central European origin...
I've been discussing about it since a while that it looks like a Central European subclade...
Too bad that the project of 'CTS9320' at FTDNA is of closed character and the results are not publicly displayed.
What is the point than if you don't display the markers so others can compare and find closer or more distant relatives??
But looking at 'E-M35' project's results and also at YFULL, I can see that the clades parallel with CTS9320 and those ancestral to it like E-Z5016, E-Z5016*, E-Y138701, E-Y3762, are found in England, Portugal, Germany and Italy...
It seems like a clear Central European origin and sometime in the MBA it looks like a migration had taken place from Central Europe to the Carpathians involving men of CTS9320 affiliation and also E-CTS6377 which is ancestral to CTS9320...I say this because of one Bulgarian CTS6377* guy negative to CTS9320.
Of course, this is an observation from a point of view of the available results displayed in the public projects and YFULL and this could not be a definitive conclusion as with more tested people we can get a different picture.
However as of now, those are my two cents...

Other thing I want to put in light is that it looks like the man or the progenitor of all modern CTS9320, as well as his ancestors, was a member of a tribe or people who lived a mountainous and nomadic life.
The Central European Alps could have been a perfect place for ancient men of CTS9320 and clades ancestral to it to hide and take shelter from the plains where the danger was much higher.
Later on, some of these mountaineers found a shelter in the Carpathians, but also in the Dinaric Alps and even further to the South in the Central Balkan mountains and Greece!
This is the period of separation of the clades of Western Balkan origin mainly present in the Albanians and those of Eastern Balkan origin, mainly present in the Bulgarians!
Therefore, I think that CTS9320 and some ancestral subclades to it, are truly people connected to the mountains who used the mountains to thrive and hide and grow in population.
A very good adaptation which probably saved many subclades under E-V13 from destruction and allowed it to grow in population.

To connect a more proximate group of people in time not that distant as the BA era, in the works of the ancient authors like Strabo, the Thracians were clearly called a "mountainous people" or "mountaineers".
I am not so sure about the Illyrians because they were regarded as good sailors and sea-faring people clearly contradicting the mountainous lifestyle of CTS9320 and other clades under E-V13, however, probably not all the tribes regarded or connected to those ancient Illyrians had the same lifestyle and probably those who lived more inland had not!
As for the Greeks, CTS9320 and most of the clades under E-V13 are total contradiction of the Greek lifestyle and seafaring nature, as the people who lived in the mountains were regarded as Barbarians by the Greeks and had Barbarian lifestyle.
This comes to a great disappointment of many E-V13 enthusiasts who proclaimed a Greek origin of E-V13 and many of it's subclades, which as the time pass, we will see that it will become more and more non-Greek!

DRITINI
19-10-19, 00:01
I myself of course wish that E-V13 is Illyrian as we are taught so . If that is wrong , it is like that and we have to accept that. But the diversity and amount of E-V13 is considerably high in Albanians (even due to bottleneck). Moreover I think that using genetics as key for attributing certain genes to certain populations is wrong . We have archeology to take into account and especially culture as well . From a historical point of view, highest probability is that Albanians descend largely from Illyrians. The Centum-Satem theory used for language classification does not hold any more, so it can not be said that Albanian is not related to Illyrian. Another point is: who were the Illyrians, the Thracians, etc? Probably they never felt way too close to each other as it is documented they had war within these „population“ with each other . If it is kept on speculating If Albanians fell from the sky we are just bullshiting.
If you talk about Illyrians as sailors : please go to The north of Albania/ south of Montenegro. You are as close to the mountains as to the sea. Moreover , it is proven that Romans used arguments like this ( and the comment on the Illyrians comes from Romans) to conquer other countries. Here I am referring to the Helvetian people. Romans tried to find a reason why to occupy other areas, and often they tried to let it seem as if they did not have another chance . In the case of Illyrians it is the bad Illyrians robbing their ships at sea. See what I mean ? Even history has to be seen critical in that sense, as it was polarizing.l

Nik
19-10-19, 01:39
Well yeah. there are similarities with the Albanian language as well especially when it comes to the grammar.
Check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund
Indeed, nothing Iranic about those words.


As for CTS9320, it's indeed from a Central European origin...
I've been discussing about it since a while that it looks like a Central European subclade...
Too bad that the project of 'CTS9320' at FTDNA is of closed character and the results are not publicly displayed.
What is the point than if you don't display the markers so others can compare and find closer or more distant relatives??
But looking at 'E-M35' project's results and also at YFULL, I can see that the clades parallel with CTS9320 and those ancestral to it like E-Z5016, E-Z5016*, E-Y138701, E-Y3762, are found in England, Portugal, Germany and Italy...
It seems like a clear Central European origin and sometime in the MBA it looks like a migration had taken place from Central Europe to the Carpathians involving men of CTS9320 affiliation and also E-CTS6377 which is ancestral to CTS9320...I say this because of one Bulgarian CTS6377* guy negative to CTS9320.
Of course, this is an observation from a point of view of the available results displayed in the public projects and YFULL and this could not be a definitive conclusion as with more tested people we can get a different picture.
However as of now, those are my two cents...
As long as your not claiming a post Iron Age or simply post Illyrian origin, then we agree. Nothing new about CTS9320.


To connect a more proximate group of people in time not that distant as the BA era, in the works of the ancient authors like Strabo, the Thracians were clearly called a "mountainous people" or "mountaineers".
I am not so sure about the Illyrians because they were regarded as good sailors and sea-faring people clearly contradicting the mountainous lifestyle of CTS9320 and other clades under E-V13, however, probably not all the tribes regarded or connected to those ancient Illyrians had the same lifestyle and probably those who lived more inland had not!
As for the Greeks, CTS9320 and most of the clades under E-V13 are total contradiction of the Greek lifestyle and seafaring nature, as the people who lived in the mountains were regarded as Barbarians by the Greeks and had Barbarian lifestyle.
This comes to a great disappointment of many E-V13 enthusiasts who proclaimed a Greek origin of E-V13 and many of it's subclades, which as the time pass, we will see that it will become more and more non-Greek!
Actually, it's the Illyrians who were way more adapted to the mountain life than the Thracians. Thracians had probably a 50/50 split between mountain and lowland dwellers, and in case you weren't aware many of those later considered highland Thracian tribes had a more Western origin and were once Illyrian (proto-Illyrian) and were later assimilated into the local Thracian population, but their culture and way of life remained more similar to the Illyrians than their Thracian lowland dwellers who were mostly of the Mediterranean type like the Greeks, while the mountain ones were Dinaric or Dinaric-Med. So clearly a hybrid population.

Nik
19-10-19, 01:42
I myself of course wish that E-V13 is Illyrian as we are taught so . If that is wrong , it is like that and we have to accept that. But the diversity and amount of E-V13 is considerably high in Albanians (even due to bottleneck). Moreover I think that using genetics as key for attributing certain genes to certain populations is wrong . We have archeology to take into account and especially culture as well . From a historical point of view, highest probability is that Albanians descend largely from Illyrians. The Centum-Satem theory used for language classification does not hold any more, so it can not be said that Albanian is not related to Illyrian. Another point is: who were the Illyrians, the Thracians, etc? Probably they never felt way too close to each other as it is documented they had war within these „population“ with each other . If it is kept on speculating If Albanians fell from the sky we are just bullshiting.
If you talk about Illyrians as sailors : please go to The north of Albania/ south of Montenegro. You are as close to the mountains as to the sea. Moreover , it is proven that Romans used arguments like this ( and the comment on the Illyrians comes from Romans) to conquer other countries. Here I am referring to the Helvetian people. Romans tried to find a reason why to occupy other areas, and often they tried to let it seem as if they did not have another chance . In the case of Illyrians it is the bad Illyrians robbing their ships at sea. See what I mean ? Even history has to be seen critical in that sense, as it was polarizing.l
Who cares if it's Illyrian or Thracian. Illyrians and Thracians living next to each other in Central Balkans were completely identical. The only thing separating them were names (who are mostly mixed) and maybe language. We have evidence that from the same settlements u have families with both Illyrian and Thracian names.

So you being from Kosovo and of Thracian origin doesn't make you less Dardanian, since they were also an Illyro-Thracian mix to begin with.

DRITINI
19-10-19, 01:56
Well we should care . You say language , language is quite a factor on which nowadays nations base on partially.
Being from Kosovo doesn’t necessarily mean to be Thracian . Vast majority of Albanians in Kosovo today claim their origin from north of Albania or Montenegro . That used to be by evidence Illyrain territory.

Aspurg
19-10-19, 03:10
DRITINI, you are from the area which used to be called Triballian field, and there is NW Bulgarian in this subclade. So that might easily be your ancestry. I don't think CTS9320 is classical Thracian, I think it must be at the core of Daco-Moesian-Triballian ethnogenesis. Some of its branches being Illyrian, and few Greek etc.

Yes Albanians have lots of diversity there, and for that there are various reasons. But in Dacian areas CTS9320 diversity is at least as great and usually involves clades very distant from Albanian clades. And Albanians are better tested than Dacian areas.

About BY4526 there are 2 clades in Carpathians, and there is some "Z37530" in South Albania, also a Vlach from there being "Z37530", while E-Y20805 being positioned in Central Balkans.

Thus far a unique Albanian CTS9320 is E-Y84585. Though I've seen one Bulgarian haplotype which "probably" belongs to it. Of CTS9320 clades not being at YFull, there is one Bulgarian CTS9320* but this clade has highest diversity in Dacia and it looks Dacian, with few Balkan members (Bulgarian, Macedonian) being arrivals from North of Danube (with Vlachs ?). While the other CTS9320* clade is again one NW Bulgarian, and with him anonymous Romanian. One Greek CTS9320* from Greek Thrace.

DRITINI
19-10-19, 12:41
I am originally also of northern Albania, to be more precise we apparently went from northwest to the northeast of Albania. Then to Kosovo . That happened 200 years ago . So I would not make arguments for sure where who is from, until we get more data related to ancient DNA. All what you me and anyone else is saying here is interpretation and not scientifically proven.Thus we shall be a bit careful what is taken as proven and as assumed ...

PaschalisB
25-10-19, 14:22
One Greek CTS9320* from Greek Thrace.

I am that Greek

Aspurg
25-10-19, 15:04
I am that Greek

I know, you are Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S19928-, I guess you did an SNP pack when BY4526 was not available. You might try that one, you don't seem to be likely E-Y20805 either because they have an old STR of dys456=18. Or you might try BigY when it's on discount.:)

Dema
25-10-19, 16:07
I am sure that E-v13 was Illyrian haplogroup. There was only one ancient Illyrian bone tested and J2-L283 was lucky to score it, proving without doubt that it was present among Illyrians.

However if we would test more bones like its done in many other studies i am sure that we would find E-v13 there. I expected Mycenaeans also to score some E-v13. It was a bit surprising not to find E-v13 there but it was only one Mycenaean bone also. However there was no E-v13 in 3 ancient Minoans, 1 Mycenaean, and 1 Illyrian so far.

I still think Illyrian and Thracian zone is best to look at. E-L618+ v13- found in Dalmatia 5500 BCE shows that E-v13 ancestor was already in region.

Also regarding Albanians, situation is that there is many various branches inside of CTS5856 (main v13 subclade), also recently PH1246 was found among Albanians (brother clade of CTS5856), and even more recently L618+ v13- (rare brother clade of E-v13) was found in Albania in Laberia region - https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/

Two samples under process are from Albania and they will soon form Albanian brother clade of E-v13.

Also not to forget that E-v13 when it comes to percentage it achieves its highest percentages in Balkans and especially among Albanians normally up to 30 % but it can go even higher.

PaschalisB
28-10-19, 21:45
I know, you are Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S19928-, I guess you did an SNP pack when BY4526 was not available. You might try that one, you don't seem to be likely E-Y20805 either because they have an old STR of dys456=18. Or you might try BigY when it's on discount.:)

For some reason FTDNA doesn't let me buy the BY4526 SNP, I also believe I am positive for it, since the STRs from the CTS9320 project who belong to that subclade are similar to mine.

DRITINI
29-10-19, 00:13
For some reason FTDNA doesn't let me buy the BY4526 SNP, I also believe I am positive for it, since the STRs from the CTS9320 project who belong to that subclade are similar to mine.
As I am also positive for BY4526 (A+) I would be interested in comparing markers...if you are interested as well ?

torzio
29-10-19, 00:32
My paternal marker gives me a position of france next to west switzerland.

Ftdna program gives me north austria

ShpataEMadhe
30-10-19, 01:02
Fair to say that e-v13 was spread throughout Europe by roman-illyrian-albanese soldiers

PaschalisB
30-10-19, 13:41
Fair to say that e-v13 was spread throughout Europe by roman-illyrian-albanese soldiers

No, some clades may have, but E-V13 was in general spread earlier in Europe.

don_joe
31-10-19, 00:03
If I look at the distribution map of E-V13, without having further details about the subgroups, it seems to me that it spread from the south of the Balkans, it took the Danube highway up to the North, even further to Germany/Danemark then it was spread with the Goths to Crimea and then it took the route with Ostrogoths and/or Visigoths through the Balkans (the latter) as far as to Iberian peninsula.

If we have a big diversity of E-V13 in the Balkans, it could be the Visigoths that passed through with another layer of this haplogroup.

In Wales, it could be a roman soldier but I would not exclude the other possibilities from the continent (Celtic, Vikings, Normans, etc.), since we don't have it in big numbers there.

We see some presence even in Scandinavia, it's very possible that it came there with the Vikings/Rus (Volga route) or even earlier, directly from North Germany, or even from Slav slaves which Vikings took with them and which also sometimes came along to raid other regions.

So to wrap it up: Balkans (former farmers) -> Hallstatt/La Tène -> somewhere close to North Germany (ethnogenesis of Germani tribes) -> Goths -> direction Crimea with split to Ostrogoths/Visigoths -> Balkans -> North Italy -> Iberia.

Quite a round, but it would explain the subhaplo diversity. I'm obviously not an expert and I won't be sad if anyone corrects me. This is just for discussion purposes.

I would also highly recommend reading Jean Manco "Ancestral Journeys - the peopling of Europe..." if someone has missed it. It's an easy but educational read, very up to date.

Cheers

Aspurg
31-10-19, 01:26
Well there was one E-M78* in a Gheg from Arberesh study who was V13-, V22-, V12- so likely some L618*.

I think E-V13 spread about 8000 years ago via maritime route to Southern Italy and from there to Dalmatia as part of Cardial Impresso culture. Genetically mostly same as other Anatolian EEF's with the small Natufian-like influence and also these weren't much of farmers to begin with, more of fisherman population which adopted farming later. V13 developed on Dalmatian coast as part of subsequently Danilo, Hvar and few other cultures. When IE pastoralists came V13 adapted well unlike most EEF's. May be that being Afroasiatic pastoralists in distant origin, Phalic cult being likely present in Neolithic Dalmatia unlike other G2a EEF's where Matriarchy was the norm. Archaeologists spoke of this potential indication of some Patriarchy in Neolithic Dalmatia which was unusual, but as we now know genetically these were a different people (not G2a2).
Likely source of V13 is Pre Pottery Neolithic B, there is one Middle-eastern clade of L618, found in a Saudi, and an Algerian who clusters with him.

So with an influence of some R1a and R-Z2103 they formed Cetina culture, and they flourished at that time. At the same time Bell Beaker IE groups were also penetrating from NW bringing more J-L283, Cetina people migrated to Greece (some PH1246 there), but also towards the East forming the Bubanj Hum III, Armenochori, Belotic-Bela Crkva complex. These should have been the E-CTS1273, then they became part of a large Danubian archaeological complex in cultures such as Vatin, Verbicioara etc. spreading towards Carpathians. Cetina died out in the West with the remnants joining J-L283 dominated cultures.

At this stage the languages brought by J-L283 might have been Veneto-Liburnian while in the East some other language related to Greek was spoken, like Paeonian, Phrygian. Albanian itself has some distant connections to Greek itself. Possibly Dorian was spoken by some cultures which included some V13 clades such as Y3183 and L241. So it seems some older Z2103 languages were prominent.
But if L283 brought classical Illyrian, maybe that originally Cetina people (so V13) spoke Veneto-Liburnian.

One of peoples are also the Pelastians, Strymon rivers former name was Palaistinos, and some R-Z2103 clades such as Y5586 are very divrse in the area as are some CTS1273 and especially E-FGC44169 which is very diverse in the Middle East, and at least some of these might be Philistines (one was R-M269). "Pelasgian" is likely a Greek corruption (which designated different peoples), but as attested by Egyptian P'R'S'T, Philistines and river Palaistinos this must be the original name of this people that spoke some IE language. Though as seen by most Greek Philistine burial the European component was mostly Anatolian EEF. So already in Bronze age formed this Balkan mixture of EEF + some Yamnaya, with those Delmatae being in cluster not with modern Albanians but with modern Catalans etc.

Then the late Bronze Age collapse came. From Central Europe a wave of Urnfield R-U152 heavy peoples invaded including proto-Illyrians. Meanwhile from the East appeared Noua culture a Srubnaya variant which might have brought the Thracian language, and being R-Z93 + R-Z92.
Urnfield Illyrians and other Urnfield peoples overwhelmed the Western Balkan, they pushed some V13 clades like L241, and Y3183 to the East all the way to Greece which likely included Dorians, others being assimilated. In the Central Balkans some E-V13's were pushed to the South (hence some diversity in the South of Albania) where they might have formed the subsequent Southern Illyrian Tumulus culture. Along the way some R-U152 became Dorian increasing Central European autosomal profile such as the one seen in Cretan sample.
Some V13 clades such as CTS9320 which originate in Eastern Balkans (maybe Carpathians) likely backstabbed the others and spread the new Thracian language around. :grin:

I think linguistic picture of the Balkan might have changed dramatically in Bronze Age collapse.

This is of course with Thracian being newer arrival, which I think is quite likely, might be same with the Illyrian.

Leka
31-10-19, 06:17
Btw, the two new L618* samples are Tosk Albanian: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/


They will form a parallel branch to V13 and BY6578.

Aspurg
31-10-19, 15:34
Btw, the two new L618* samples are Tosk Albanian: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/


They will form a parallel branch to V13 and BY6578.

Are they related to ALB013fta from Arberesh study who is E-M78 (xV12,V13,V22)? They might be some old Cardial migrants to there, or maybe they arrived from the North if they cluster with this Gheg. This just underscores the correctness of tying E-L618 with Cardial Coastal Western Balkan. And of course Cetina culture as that culture had strong pre-IE element in the same area where aDNA L618+ was found.

Aspurg
31-10-19, 15:54
But if L283 brought classical Illyrian, maybe that originally Cetina people (so V13) spoke Veneto-Liburnian.


According to Katicic the Illyrians of Albania were Illyrians proper, Delmatae, Pannonians were a different group under influence of Celtoid populations, which corresponds well with Unrfield R-U152 movement 8and some diversity of these clades in the Western Balkans, usually isolated from the Western European clades). So going after Katičić L283 brought Illyrian proper.
Liburnian might in that case represent something pre-Illyrian.

Regarding V13, it's obvious V13 migrated to the East or/and might have been pushed to the East by the J-L283 wave itself. Bulgarian linguist Georgiev proposed that the Pelasgian language was closely related to Thracian:
"Thracian and Pelasgian are most probably two dialects of a single Thraco-Pelasgian language" (Georgiev 1981:361).

This would favor "older Thracian" in the Balkans. And V13 expansion towards Eastern area fits into that. If Thracian is later arrival then some other languages, Graeco-Phrygian might be the answer. I think it is probably not a coincidence that in Ossetians CTS1273, BY3880- is found alongside basal R-Y5586, both of these clades have roughly similar point of diversity and similar TMRCA in those areas, that is that V13 joined some R-Y5586 population.

V13 clades going Eastwards might have contributed to the more Southeastern autosomal profile of IA Thracians in comparison to LBA Illyrians on Dalmatian coast.

Leka
31-10-19, 17:14
Are they related to ALB013fta from Arberesh study who is E-M78 (xV12,V13,V22)? They might be some old Cardial migrants to there, or maybe they arrived from the North if they cluster with this Gheg. This just underscores the correctness of tying E-L618 with Cardial Coastal Western Balkan. And of course Cetina culture as that culture had strong pre-IE element in the same area where aDNA L618+ was found.
Not at all. That Gheg (ALB013fta) from Boattini most likely represent another parallel branch under L618.


Forgot to mention, there is also a Gheg with origin from Kosove (living in Turkey) and a Greek from Koukoulis, Greece (Janine region) on 23andme listed as L618. They must be V13-, assuming 23andme placed them correctly.

DRITINI
31-10-19, 23:48
Fair to say that e-v13 was spread throughout Europe by roman-illyrian-albanese soldiers


According to Katicic the Illyrians of Albania were Illyrians proper, Delmatae, Pannonians were a different group under influence of Celtoid populations, which corresponds well with Unrfield R-U152 movement 8and some diversity of these clades in the Western Balkans, usually isolated from the Western European clades). So going after Katičić L283 brought Illyrian proper.
Liburnian might in that case represent something pre-Illyrian.

Regarding V13, it's obvious V13 migrated to the East or/and might have been pushed to the East by the J-L283 wave itself. Bulgarian linguist Georgiev proposed that the Pelasgian language was closely related to Thracian:
"Thracian and Pelasgian are most probably two dialects of a single Thraco-Pelasgian language" (Georgiev 1981:361).

This would favor "older Thracian" in the Balkans. And V13 expansion towards Eastern area fits into that. If Thracian is later arrival then some other languages, Graeco-Phrygian might be the answer. I think it is probably not a coincidence that in Ossetians CTS1273, BY3880- is found alongside basal R-Y5586, both of these clades have roughly similar point of diversity and similar TMRCA in those areas, that is that V13 joined some R-Y5586 population.

V13 clades going Eastwards might have contributed to the more Southeastern autosomal profile of IA Thracians in comparison to LBA Illyrians on Dalmatian coast.

Can anyone here tell me one pelasgian/thracian sentence? As far as I know there is only a bunch of Thracian words known , same holds for Illyrian. Pelasgian is still more kind of a mythos. I am happy if you can prove me wrong 😁 then at least some advance is happening in detecting the ancient languages

Johane Derite
01-11-19, 00:58
Can anyone here tell me one pelasgian/thracian sentence? As far as I know there is only a bunch of Thracian words known , same holds for Illyrian. Pelasgian is still more kind of a mythos. I am happy if you can prove me wrong 😁 then at least some advance is happening in detecting the ancient languages

We have enough thracian words that are cognates with other IE words to know what evolution certain phonemes underwent. Sound change is regular and consistent unless 1. Loan word, or 2. Areal influence from foreign language.

Albanian does not show thracian reflexes. Infact, the only IE language which has reflexes like Albanian is Messapic, the Illyrian language that actually has the most inscription (up to 600) which are only now being analysed.

Here is one example:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31750-Illyrian-and-Albanian-a-linguistic-approach/page29?p=588869#post588869

DRITINI
01-11-19, 17:04
I am aware of this , but if Aspurg relates on Georgiev, I wanna know what exactly is taken as indicator for his assumptions.

Aspurg
05-11-19, 23:56
I am aware of this , but if Aspurg relates on Georgiev, I wanna know what exactly is taken as indicator for his assumptions.

http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=D76B8B3E98EFF9350341F9202BF538EC

Here is "Ancient Languages of the Balkans" by Katičić, so you can read about Pelasgian of Georgiev too there.

Tutkun Arnaut
06-11-19, 00:45
Fair to say that e-v13 was spread throughout Europe by roman-illyrian-albanese soldiers
E v13 again is an Indo-European haplogroup. It means it came to Balkans together with R1B, r1A AND j2 in the Bronx age,. Its not a haplogroup who predated or after dated the Indo-Europeans, or somehow expanded from the Balkans. This haplogroup is not present in non Indo-European populations like Estonia, Finland, since this people are not Indo-Europeans. Sweden on the other hand which borders Finland has the Ev13. Had it not been Indo-European it should have crossed in these contries

ShpataEMadhe
06-11-19, 14:19
E v13 again is an Indo-European haplogroup. It means it came to Balkans together with R1B, r1A AND j2 in the Bronx age,. Its not a haplogroup who predated or after dated the Indo-Europeans, or somehow expanded from the Balkans. This haplogroup is not present in non Indo-European populations like Estonia, Finland, since this people are not Indo-Europeans. Sweden on the other hand which borders Finland has the Ev13. Had it not been Indo-European it should have crossed in these contries

Came together? Unlikely, came to Europe at a similar period, sure. But from different background, language, area

The fact that v13 is strong in balkans points to it being an elite race that dominated that region early on. A bit like the Slavic invasion which brought i2a to the balkans and settled there much later, v13 came to the balkans and settled there but how much of the previous population did they wipe out/scare off and what was the initial population if anything

Tutkun Arnaut
06-11-19, 14:37
Came together? Unlikely, came to Europe at a similar period, sure. But from different background, language, area

The fact that v13 is strong in balkans points to it being an elite race that dominated that region early on. A bit like the Slavic invasion which brought i2a to the balkans and settled there much later, v13 came to the balkans and settled there but how much of the previous population did they wipe out/scare off and what was the initial population if anything

the data available points to Indo-European origin of e v13. Read Maciamo what he has to say about this haplo. What makes you think E-V13 WAS AN ELITE? No such evidence! Wishes is a different matter! the earliest haplogroups are I and long after it haplogroup G

ShpataEMadhe
06-11-19, 23:49
the data available points to Indo-European origin of e v13. Read Maciamo what he has to say about this haplo. What makes you think E-V13 WAS AN ELITE? No such evidence! Wishes is a different matter! the earliest haplogroups are I and long after it haplogroup G

What do you mean by indo european exactly? What age are you talking about here? The ancestor of v13 was mediterranean z1919 according to your chart. I don't think these charts are reliable anyway, there isn't enough data, there is a jump from mediterranean to scotland/northern europe for v13 and then much later back down to balkans. The most sensible part of that chart is the movement from croatia to albania, a region dominated by ilyrians

The best data we have is current data which shows v13 being strong in balkans with a steady spread throughout Europe in particular regions the romans conquered, almost nonexistent in Africa or Asia

Oldest doesn't mean elite, I said elite balkan race because they pushed others out and prolonged their stay, made the place their own. Where is proof that g is even European or that it is an elite race when it doesn't have any strong points anywhere in Europe?

LeoJ
21-11-19, 20:27
I think E-V13 spread about 8000 years ago via maritime route to Southern Italy and from there to Dalmatia as part of Cardial Impresso culture.
This is of course with Thracian being newer arrival, which I think is quite likely, might be same with the Illyrian.
Some V13 clades such as CTS9320 which originate in Eastern Balkans (maybe Carpathians) likely backstabbed the others and spread the new Thracian language around

I'm think this logic too ! One question why is not this CTS9320 related with Romania (Dacia) in this chart, and the only clade for this country is waaaaay too recent (A7065) of classic antiquity ?