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Aspurg
11-05-18, 01:52
Months ago I've been going through the haplotypes from the "Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma" study and I was very surprised to see some STR values that are familiar to me.
dys390=25, dys389=13-32, also very often dys385=17-18. These haplotypes are SNP confirmed in the study as V13, and there is only one E-V13 clade for which they are basically modal (especially dys390+dys389ii) and that is L540.

Roma from Bulgaria, L540 nonexistant in Bulgarians, and looking at STR values likely will not be found in Bulgaria
13 25 13 10 17-18 11 12 11 13 11 33 16 14 20 11 18 10 21
13 25 13 10 17-18 11 12 11 13 11 32 16 14 20 11 17 10 21
13 25 13 10 17-18 11 12 11 13 11 32 16 14 20 11 18 10 21
13 25 13 10 17-18 11 12 11 13 11 33 16 14 20 11 18 10 21
13 25 13 10 17-18 11 12 11 13 11 32 16 14 20 11 18 10 21


Roma from Greece , 4 out of 5 V13 , L540 nonexistant in Greeks, and generally these values are very off for Greeks
13 25 13 10 17-17 11 12 11 13 11 32 17 14 20 11 17 10 21
13 25 13 10 17-17 11 12 11 13 11 32 17 14 20 11 17 10 21
13 25 13 10 17-17 11 12 11 13 11 31 17 14 20 11 17 10 21
13 25 13 10 17-17 11 12 11 14 11 33 17 14 20 11 18 10 21




Roma from Hungary, L540 absent from Hungarians
13 25 13 10 17-18 11 12 11 13 11 32 16 14 20 11 18 10 21


Roma from Romania, only one V13, but he has a weird haplotype and again this value on dys389, this haplotype is absent in Romanians
13 24 13 9 16-16 11 12 12 13 11 32 16 14 20 10 14 10 22


Roma from Slovakia, no such but all of their V13 are weird looking, one has dys389=13-32, others 13-31


Roma from Ukraine
13 25 13 10 17-18 11 12 11 13 11 31 16 14 20 11 17 10 22


Obviously none of these are L540 tested but it's quite clear their haplotypes lean in that direction to anyone with deeper knowledge of V13. And obviously among surrounding Southeastern European populations E-L540 is basically non-existent.

Shetop
11-05-18, 09:51
Pretty interesting observation!

Aspurg
11-05-18, 19:27
Pretty interesting observation!

Yes, and obviously these are very likely to be L540 based on these STR values. They are V13. Now the question is from where would Roma obtain L540? It's unlikely they picked it up from Bulgarians, Romanians, Greeks etc. Either:
1) from Central Europe
2) they brought it from India.
In any case they often have higher V13 percentage than one would expect, but at least a good part of it seems to be an unusual clade.

eastara
12-05-18, 03:35
Roma obviously acquired E-V13 somewhere on the Balkans, for example it is almost absent in Spanish Roma, but they have other branches like V22 and M81. It is not a "founder lineage" in the study, those being H1, I1 and J2a.
There is also L540 in Hungary and Slovakia and the obvious explanation is that Vlax Roma, who are newcomers to Bulgaria and many other European countries took it from there. However, I see that that Bulgarian Roma with this haplotype are BBA, i.e Bulgarian Balkan Roma, who are Muslims and already lived there during Ottoman times.
If they are really L540, this could be added to the mystery where they took the I1-Z141(P259) from.
However this could be just homoplasmy, for example, a Bulgarian with similar haplotype was proven by YSEQ to be FGC11450*.

Trojet
12-05-18, 16:48
Wrong thread, delete.

Aspurg
13-05-18, 01:00
Roma obviously acquired E-V13 somewhere on the Balkans, for example it is almost absent in Spanish Roma, but they have other branches like V22 and M81. It is not a "founder lineage" in the study, those being H1, I1 and J2a.

V13 is almost absent in Romanian Roma as well interestingly. This particular haplotype, while not considered a "founder", is still present in multiple Roma populations.



There is also L540 in Hungary and Slovakia and the obvious explanation is that Vlax Roma, who are newcomers to Bulgaria and many other European countries took it from there.
However, I see that that Bulgarian Roma with this haplotype are BBA, i.e Bulgarian Balkan Roma, who are Muslims and already lived there during Ottoman times.
If they are really L540, this could be added to the mystery where they took the I1-Z141(P259) from.
However this could be just homoplasmy, for example, a Bulgarian with similar haplotype was proven by YSEQ to be FGC11450*.

About BBA, yes that's a good point as this haplotype is absent from other two groups from Bulgaria (Vlax and Rudari Vlax). Interestingly they also absorbed lots of I2-PH908.
That particular I1-Z141 is a mystery also because I believe he is isolated.

Yes there is a similar Bulgarian FGC11450, however he has a value on dys389ii=18, while the modal for these and L540 is 19, also I only saw 12 of his markers but like almost all other FGC11450 he most likely has GATAH4=10 (FGC11450's distinct value), while these have 11, so L540 is far more likely than that FGC11450 haplotype. Overall among V13 clades L540 are among easier to spot because of several distinct STR values.

So, possibly there might exist indeed connection between E-L540 and I1-Z141 acquisition among Roma because they are both lacking in Spanish Roma (other founder lineages are present there).

eastara
14-05-18, 03:26
Well, soon we will know the subbranches of Roma founding lineages. A new study with Full genome is in the pipeline.
This was reported at the Human evolution conference Cambridge 1917:

Roma population ancestry from a whole genome sequence perspective: preliminary results.

Erica Bianco1, Carla Garcia-Fernandez1, Begoña Dobon-Berenguer1, Mihai G. Netea2, Jaume Bertranpetit1, David Comas1

Roma people are the largest minority in Europe. Previous linguistic and genetic studies showed Roma people originated in the Northwest part of the Indian subcontinent 1.5 kya. Around 1 kya, Roma arrived in Europe and spread in the European continent in different migration waves. Previous studies showed Roma genomes exhibit West Eurasian and South Asia ancestry components, similarly to Indian populations. However, unlikely other Indian populations, Roma undergone recent admixture with European populations, as shown by uniparental studies. These recent admixture events theoretically increased Roma West Eurasian ancestry. Up to date, the distinction between the recent admixture and the West Eurasian ancestry already present in Roma before the arrival in Europe has not been addressed.
Using whole genome sequencing data of 46 Roma people, we analyzed Roma ancestry patterns and determined the West Eurasian component due to recent admixture with Europeans.
In a clustering analysis, we found Roma comprise ~75% West Eurasian component and ~25% South Asia component . We approached Roma complex admixture pattern by fitting different demographic scenarios, which included one or more admixture events, to real data. We found that the best fit scenarios are those in which ancestral Roma are the result of the admixture between ancestral West Eurasians and ancestral South Asians followed by the admixture between proto-Roma (recently arrived to Europe) with Europeans and a period of isolation. On average, in all possible scenarios, Roma present ~80-85% of West Eurasian ancestry, divided into the European recent admixture and the West Eurasian ancestry of ancestral Roma. In all cases, the recent European admixture accounted for more than 50% of overall West Eurasian ancestry.
Our preliminary results confirm Roma have a complex demographic history that cannot be explained just by an admixture event between Indian and European populations. Roma ancestors were already the result of the admixture between West Eurasian and South Asian ancestries. After the out of India, they further admix with Europeans, increasing their West Eurasian ancestry component.

Complete Y chromosome sequences reveal the founder events in different Roma groups
Carla García-Fernández, Neus Solé-Morata, Neus Font-Porterias, Erica Bianco, David Comas, Francesc Calafell

The Roma are suggested to have originated from the North-Western India, and to have diverged into distinct migrant groups after their arrival in Europe 1kya. Little is known about the internal diversity and stratification of these different groups. This is due to that most of the studies on the subject have considered only the country of origin instead of the Roma group affiliation, and to the small number of SNPs and Y-STRs used in most studies, that masks their complex population history.
Here we generated 40 whole Y chromosome sequences by using whole-genome shotgun paired-end sequencing (Illumina HiSeq X Ten), from five different European Roma populations belonging to the four major migrant groups.
We found that tree founder haplogroups (H1, I1, J2), defined the 57.5% of the Y Roma lineages, showing the low diversity in the Y chromosomes of Romani, a consequence of their recent origin and spread.
Interestingly, North-Western Roma showed very similar frequencies of haplogroups in Spain and Lithuania despite their very geographically distant regions. In contrast, Romungro Roma and Vlax Roma, which belong to the same country (Hungary) show different haplogroup compositions. This suggests that structure within Romani could be more related to the migrant affiliation than to the geographical origin.