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Maciamo
14-05-18, 11:11
The study on Lombard DNA by Amorim et al. (2018) (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/02/20/268250.figures-only) was already discussed (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34923-Ancient-Lombard-DNA) a few months ago as part of a preliminary paper, but did not yet include the Y-DNA and mtDNA tables. This is still a pre-print, but at least we can see what haplogroups the Lombards carried.

The admixtures for each sample are available on this chart to confirm which sample is autosomally Lombard (in blue) or Roman (in red and green).
https://i.imgur.com/FFubFj4.png

Here is the Y-DNA table from the study. I have added the mtDNA in the right column and coloured in red the sample number for those that were autosomally predominantly South European. Those that were very mixed are in blue and red. The others are predominantly Northwest European/Germanic.



CL38
E1b1b1a1b1a3
PF2211
X2


CL31
G2a1a1
Z6644
H18


CL63
I1a3
Z79
H


CL23
T1a2b
L446
H


CL110
R1b1a2a
M694
-


CL53
R1b1a2a
PF6434
H11a


CL57
R1b1a2a1a
L151
H24a


CL93
R1b1a2a1a
L151
J2b1a


CL145
R1b1a2a1a
L151
T2b


CL146
R1b1a2a1a
L151
T2b3


CL92
R1b1a2a1a
L52
H


CL84
R1b1a2a1a2c1g1a1
Z381
H1t


CL30
R1b1a1a2a1a2
S116
I1b


CL49
R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a
Z367
-


CL94
R1b1a1a2a1a2f
S11987 (DF99)
K1c1


CL121
R1b1a2a2
Z2103
H1i2














SZ18
E1b1b1a1b2
CTS2817
H13a1a2


SZ45
I1a1b1
L22
J1c


SZ12
I2a2a1
CTS9183
W6


SZ14
I2a2a1
CTS9183
I3


SZ24
I2a2a1
CTS9183
U4b


SZ43
I2a2a1a2a1a
S391
H1e


SZ3
I2a2a1b2a2
S390
H18


SZ13
I2a2a1b2a2a2
ZS20
N1b1b1


SZ22
I2a2a1b2a2a2
ZS20
N1b1b1


SZ7
I2a2a1b2a2a2
ZS20
T2e


SZ36
T1a1a
PF5620
U4c2a


SZ15
R1a1a1b1a3a
S200
H1c1


SZ4
R1b1a2a1a1b
Z16
H1c9


SZ16
R1b1a2a1a1c
Z381
U4b1b


SZ23
R1b1a2a1a1c
Z381
H13a1a2


SZ2
R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a
L130
T1a1


SZ11
R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a1a1
Z351
K2a3


SZ27B
R1b1a1a2a1a2
S116
N1a1a1a1


SZ37
R1b1a1a2a1a2
S116
H66a


SZ42
R1b1a1a2a1a2
S116
K2a6


SZ5
R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b
CTS1595
J2b1



The autosomally Germanic samples belong to:

- I1-L22 (1 sample)
- I2a2a-L801 (4 samples including three ZS20)
- R1a-Z284 (1 sample, L448+)
- R1b-U106 (including three Z381, two L48>Z9 and one Z16)

One sample was reported as I1a3, which should be I1-Z63, but the SNP listed was Z79, which belongs to a deep clade of I2a2a-L801. So it isn't clear which it is. Surely a typo.

There is no surprise, except maybe that the haplogroup composition is so high in I2a2a-L801 and has few I1, but that is probably a sampling bias (too small sample size). All the haplogroups are unambiguously Germanic and even South Scandinavian in their subclades, which is in agreement with the origins of the Lombards in Scania (southern Sweden).

The samples that were autosomally South European included the following haplogroups:

- E-V13
- G2a1a
- I2a2a-L1229 (also found in Megalithic cultures)
- R1b-Z2103
- T1a1a

One R1b-S116 (P312) samples was fully Germanic, one was fully South European, and the third one was mixed.

Two samples (CL49 and SZ5) belong to R1b-U152 (L2>Z367 and Z36>Z37), but unfortunately both are about half CEU and half TSI (+IBS for SZ5), so their origins are inconclusive. Alpine Celts would probably have such mixed ancestry though. But the Z36 branch is more likely Italic/Roman.

The E-V22 and R1b-DF99 and one R1b-Z381 also had mixed ancestry.

Ownstyler
14-05-18, 11:48
Thank you! Do you have any theories on why there are no Slavic clades there? There are known historical associations between the Slavs and Longobards, and the Longobard migration to Italy probably followed decades of living side by side with Slavic tribes. Instead the mixed ones look more southeaster. It's as if the Slavic migrations had not happened yet.

Maciamo
14-05-18, 12:42
Thank you! Do you have any theories on why there are no Slavic clades there? There are known historical associations between the Slavs and Longobards, and the Longobard migration to Italy probably followed decades of living side by side with Slavic tribes. Instead the mixed ones look more southeaster. It's as if the Slavic migrations had not happened yet.

Why would there be Slavic clades? They are Lombards, not Goths. The Lombards descended straight from Scania to Italy via Germany, Austria and Hungary. They never passed through Slavic territories.

Alyan
14-05-18, 13:04
The haplogroups debunk the notion floated around certain other sites that the more South European samples are Arabs or Jews or some other Near Easterners. I expect the upcoming Imperial Rome paper to not contradict the implication of related admixture being more spread around the peninsula than the Nordicist narrative suggests.

I1a3_Young
14-05-18, 20:17
Surprising that the I1 frequency is so low and that there's not I1a2 (Z58) branches. Very nice to see these results.

Sile
14-05-18, 21:07
I looked at CL23 ( buried in Italy ), born in the balkans ?
He has Helbus reading of Bulgarian
.
Helbus - Hellenthal et al. (p. 747) describe a method, using a technique called chromosome painting, to follow the genetic traces of admixture back to the nearest extant population. The approach revealed details of worldwide human admixture history over the past 4000 years.
.
His IBS seems to be via his mtdna of H
.
his closest ancient match is via neolthic Hungarian ...........maybe even Sopot culture.
.
There is chit-chat around that 1000 genomes system is now outdated as no marker/ID covers the balkans or eastern europe

Ownstyler
14-05-18, 22:08
Why would there be Slavic clades? They are Lombards, not Goths. The Lombards descended straight from Scania to Italy via Germany, Austria and Hungary. They never passed through Slavic territories.

The paper had samples from Pannonia. Hungarians had not arrived there yet, so the mixed haplogroups "should" have been Slavs, Avars, other Germanics, or just pre-migration locals.

Ygorcs
15-05-18, 01:16
The paper had samples from Pannonia. Hungarians had not arrived there yet, so the mixed haplogroups "should" have been Slavs, Avars, other Germanics, or just pre-migration locals.

The Slavic expansion had barely begun by the time Lombards went from Hungary to Italy. I wouldn't expect a lot of Slavs in Hungary that early. Romanized local Pannonians, yes, maybe some Romanized Illyrians and Dacians too, and certainly an increasing number of Germanic populations, but even the Avars were just arriving in the Pannonian plain in the early-mid 6th century AD, they became dominant in the later part of that century. Slavs according to some authors took advantage of the structures of the Avar Empire, their language possibly even became a lingua franca, but the Slavic westward spread (impacting Hungary strongly) was most definitely not as early as 450-550 AD, which is the approximate time Lombards lived in Hungary. By 568 AD they were already conquering Italy and wouldn't mix much with newcomers to Pannonia any longer.

Promenade
15-05-18, 01:49
Hey mtdna H1e, first in Neolithic Germany and Wielbark, now in migration age Pannonia as well.

Tomenable
20-08-18, 19:28
Why would there be Slavic clades? They are Lombards, not Goths. The Lombards descended straight from Scania to Italy via Germany, Austria and Hungary. They never passed through Slavic territories.

Weren't there Slavs in Austria and Hungary at least since the 6th-7th centuries AD?

These samples from Szolad in Hungary appear genetically Slavic (culturally Avar?):

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/36870-Avar-(in-fact-Slavic-)-Women-from-Szolad-(Hungary)-on-GEDmatch


The Slavic expansion had barely begun by the time Lombards went from Hungary to Italy. I wouldn't expect a lot of Slavs in Hungary that early. Romanized local Pannonians, yes, maybe some Romanized Illyrians and Dacians too, and certainly an increasing number of Germanic populations, but even the Avars were just arriving in the Pannonian plain in the early-mid 6th century AD, they became dominant in the later part of that century. Slavs according to some authors took advantage of the structures of the Avar Empire, their language possibly even became a lingua franca, but the Slavic westward spread (impacting Hungary strongly) was most definitely not as early as 450-550 AD, which is the approximate time Lombards lived in Hungary. By 568 AD they were already conquering Italy and wouldn't mix much with newcomers to Pannonia any longer.
I guess this explains it.

These "genetically Slavic" samples from Szolad are from late 500s - early 600s.

I1a3_Young
04-01-19, 17:07
The study on Lombard DNA by Amorim et al. (2018) (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/02/20/268250.figures-only) was already discussed (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34923-Ancient-Lombard-DNA) a few months ago as part of a preliminary paper, but did not yet include the Y-DNA and mtDNA tables. This is still a pre-print, but at least we can see what haplogroups the Lombards carried.

The admixtures for each sample are available on this chart to confirm which sample is autosomally Lombard (in blue) or Roman (in red and green).
https://i.imgur.com/FFubFj4.png

Here is the Y-DNA table from the study. I have added the mtDNA in the right column and coloured in red the sample number for those that were autosomally predominantly South European. Those that were very mixed are in blue and red. The others are predominantly Northwest European/Germanic.



CL38
E1b1b1a1b1a3
PF2211
X2


CL31
G2a1a1
Z6644
H18


CL63
I1a3
Z79
H


CL23
T1a2b
L446
H


CL110
R1b1a2a
M694
-


CL53
R1b1a2a
PF6434
H11a


CL57
R1b1a2a1a
L151
H24a


CL93
R1b1a2a1a
L151
J2b1a


CL145
R1b1a2a1a
L151
T2b


CL146
R1b1a2a1a
L151
T2b3


CL92
R1b1a2a1a
L52
H


CL84
R1b1a2a1a2c1g1a1
Z381
H1t


CL30
R1b1a1a2a1a2
S116
I1b


CL49
R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a
Z367
-


CL94
R1b1a1a2a1a2f
S11987 (DF99)
K1c1


CL121
R1b1a2a2
Z2103
H1i2














SZ18
E1b1b1a1b2
CTS2817
H13a1a2


SZ45
I1a1b1
L22
J1c


SZ12
I2a2a1
CTS9183
W6


SZ14
I2a2a1
CTS9183
I3


SZ24
I2a2a1
CTS9183
U4b


SZ43
I2a2a1a2a1a
S391
H1e


SZ3
I2a2a1b2a2
S390
H18


SZ13
I2a2a1b2a2a2
ZS20
N1b1b1


SZ22
I2a2a1b2a2a2
ZS20
N1b1b1


SZ7
I2a2a1b2a2a2
ZS20
T2e


SZ36
T1a1a
PF5620
U4c2a


SZ15
R1a1a1b1a3a
S200
H1c1


SZ4
R1b1a2a1a1b
Z16
H1c9


SZ16
R1b1a2a1a1c
Z381
U4b1b


SZ23
R1b1a2a1a1c
Z381
H13a1a2


SZ2
R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2a1b1a
L130
T1a1


SZ11
R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a1a1
Z351
K2a3


SZ27B
R1b1a1a2a1a2
S116
N1a1a1a1


SZ37
R1b1a1a2a1a2
S116
H66a


SZ42
R1b1a1a2a1a2
S116
K2a6


SZ5
R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b
CTS1595
J2b1



The autosomally Germanic samples belong to:

- I1-L22 (1 sample)
- I2a2a-L801 (4 samples including three ZS20)
- R1a-Z284 (1 sample, L448+)
- R1b-U106 (including three Z381, two L48>Z9 and one Z16)

One sample was reported as I1a3, which should be I1-Z63, but the SNP listed was Z79, which belongs to a deep clade of I2a2a-L801. So it isn't clear which it is. Surely a typo.

There is no surprise, except maybe that the haplogroup composition is so high in I2a2a-L801 and has few I1, but that is probably a sampling bias (too small sample size). All the haplogroups are unambiguously Germanic and even South Scandinavian in their subclades, which is in agreement with the origins of the Lombards in Scania (southern Sweden).

The samples that were autosomally South European included the following haplogroups:

- E-V13
- G2a1a
- I2a2a-L1229 (also found in Megalithic cultures)
- R1b-Z2103
- T1a1a

One R1b-S116 (P312) samples was fully Germanic, one was fully South European, and the third one was mixed.

Two samples (CL49 and SZ5) belong to R1b-U152 (L2>Z367 and Z36>Z37), but unfortunately both are about half CEU and half TSI (+IBS for SZ5), so their origins are inconclusive. Alpine Celts would probably have such mixed ancestry though. But the Z36 branch is more likely Italic/Roman.

The E-V22 and R1b-DF99 and one R1b-Z381 also had mixed ancestry.Any news on whether CL63 is really I1-Z63 and not I2-Z79?

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ELIOV13
05-01-19, 17:22
As for v13, you can not have deeper clades or STR markers? Although it has been defined as southern europe, could it not be a descendant of Greek colonists of the sixth century ahead of Christ or Byzantine?
Can not establish correlations with the current inhabitants? In these studies they never, given current knowledge, to go a little 'deeper' through local history?

I1a3_Young
06-01-19, 01:14
Any news on whether CL63 is really I1-Z63 and not I2-Z79?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)I have the answer. CL63 is I1-DF29 and negative for Z63, L22. SZ45 is listed as positive for BOTH Z63 and L22 which is impossible. It's probably one or the other.

There were some WGS data available for a handful of them....very cool info on the U106 samples being run with by the U106 enthusiast crowd.

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I1a3_Young
25-01-19, 05:14
I have the answer. CL63 is I1-DF29 and negative for Z63, L22. SZ45 is listed as positive for BOTH Z63 and L22 which is impossible. It's probably one or the other.

There were some WGS data available for a handful of them....very cool info on the U106 samples being run with by the U106 enthusiast crowd.

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I downloaded a BAM viewer (IGV) and obtained the CL63 BAM from NCBI. I looked at CL63.

Results: Z63+, S2077+, PR683+, L1237-
10646

Sample SZ45 is L22, P109, and some downstream. It's being added to YFull.

Sile
25-01-19, 05:55
I downloaded a BAM viewer (IGV) and obtained the CL63 BAM from NCBI. I looked at CL63.

Results: Z63+, S2077+, PR683+, L1237-
10646

Sample SZ45 is L22, P109, and some downstream. It's being added to YFull.

can you try CL23 please

I1a3_Young
25-01-19, 13:26
can you try CL23 pleaseCL23 T1a2bL446Southern Europe

I'm not familiar with T. I'd need a list of hg19 positions to check further.

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Salento
25-01-19, 17:57
CL23 T1a2b L446Southern Europe

I'm not familiar with T. I'd need a list of hg19 positions to check further.

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Thanks, CL23: Y T1a2B L446

Gedmatch ID: Z909242

Dodecad V3:

Using 2 populations approximation:
50% S_Italian_Dodecad +50% N._European_Xing @ 2.237386

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Tuscan_Xing @ 5.631067
2 Tuscan_Henn @ 5.789172
3 TSI_HapMap @ 5.890182
4 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 12.158504
5 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 12.402679
6 Tuscan_HGDP @ 16.422783
7 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar @ 16.593323
8 North_Italian_HGDP @ 17.688528
9 Ashkenazi_Dodecad @ 17.841017
10 C_Italian_Dodecad @ 17.930902
11 Portuguese_Dodecad @ 19.748495
12 Romanians_14_Behar @ 21.162502
13 French_HGDP @ 21.530539
14 IBS_1000Genomes @ 21.712353
15 French_Dodecad @ 21.973799
16 Slovenian_Xing @ 22.102324
17 Spaniards_Behar @ 22.287905
18 Spanish_Dodecad @ 22.587999
19 S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad @ 23.333891
20 Morocco_Jews_Behar @ 24.114454

Sile
25-01-19, 19:03
Thanks, CL23: Y T1a2B L446

Gedmatch ID: Z909242

Dodecad V3:

Using 2 populations approximation:
50% S_Italian_Dodecad +50% N._European_Xing @ 2.237386

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Tuscan_Xing @ 5.631067
2 Tuscan_Henn @ 5.789172
3 TSI_HapMap @ 5.890182
4 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 12.158504
5 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 12.402679
6 Tuscan_HGDP @ 16.422783
7 Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar @ 16.593323
8 North_Italian_HGDP @ 17.688528
9 Ashkenazi_Dodecad @ 17.841017
10 C_Italian_Dodecad @ 17.930902
11 Portuguese_Dodecad @ 19.748495
12 Romanians_14_Behar @ 21.162502
13 French_HGDP @ 21.530539
14 IBS_1000Genomes @ 21.712353
15 French_Dodecad @ 21.973799
16 Slovenian_Xing @ 22.102324
17 Spaniards_Behar @ 22.287905
18 Spanish_Dodecad @ 22.587999
19 S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad @ 23.333891
20 Morocco_Jews_Behar @ 24.114454

I was trying to get more SNP from this person
he might be like the viking Canute who was T1a2-PH46 ....which is a split from our branch

I1a3_Young
25-01-19, 19:26
I was trying to get more SNP from this person
he might be like the viking Canute who was T1a2-PH46 ....which is a split from our branchI'll check if you give me an organized snp list in hg19 format. Similar to what I posted above.

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