View Full Version : J1-Z18271 - probably the haplogroup of Israelites?

15-05-18, 14:13
I think that it appears interestingly probable that haplogroup J-Z18271 (aka J-Y3088) is the lineage of biblical Israelites. TMRCA of this clade is estimated by YFull as 3000 ybp (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3088/) and the estimates of YFull may be 15-25% too low. So it appears possible that the ancestor of Z18271 lived about 3500-4000 ybp.

Here is link to Genogenea's J1 tree: http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree.

One of Z18271* lineages was found in Great Britain (FTDNA #216524). It is probably id:YF13486 from YFull tree. The number of known lineages descending from Z18271 ancestor is at least 5 (according to Genogenea's tree) or about 7 (according to YFull tree).

15-05-18, 19:18
The Israelites didn’t all descend from (the mythical) Abraham. There were many Y DNA lines amongst the Israelites, and they would have continued to assimilate a lot more for a good while. Later on, that became much rarer (in "proper" Jewish groups that plot near-ish to Cyprus), particularly among Ashkenazim, but it still happened (I’m Y DNA I1 and genetically and paper trail wise fully Ashkenazi - the most immediate non-Ashkenazi guy carrying the I1 I’m descended from would very likely have come from the Rhineland around the time of initial Jewish settlement).

Assimilation eventually happens in all natural cultures (as in, the culture evolves without mostly forcefully being directed by something like written purity laws), and even in constrained cultures (like that of a small, endogamous tribe like Jews) it will occur to some degree. Look at the intermarriage rate among Western Reform Jews - it’s consistently above 50% (sometimes a lot above, like in America), correctly suggesting ethnocultural erosion (i.e. assimilation, which is a good thing mostly), but even in far far less pronounced cases it occurs (even in Haredim, where although incredulously rare, you get the odd convert marrying in and even producing offspring).

There is no such thing as total purity.

16-08-18, 01:14
Im ZS241 after testing SNP v3 Pack on Ftdna, still waiting for my big y results, autosomal results show me 55% Southeastern europe, 15% Iberian, 18% Sephardic, 12%Asia Minor

18-10-18, 22:13
Eu sou J M267 no Negven deu J1a2a1a2 P58, sou natural de Teofilo Otoni MG, Brasil, estive lendo que esse halopgrupo é J1c3, mas não sei muita coisa.... no Pack SNP 267, tenho tanto Z18271 quanto o ZS241, entretanto, preciso comprar ele, há muitos SNPs judaicos e árabes no pack. Esse halopgrupo meu é de origem árabe... devido os matches que tenho todos são árabes....mas no gedmatch tenho muito matches askenazi... ai fico confuso...sei que será preciso fazer o BIG Y 500, para dirimir as dúvidas...

11-12-18, 16:28
Ashkenazi Jewish males carry Haplogroup J as their main Haplogroup and according many, many respected scientific papers, they are closely related to the males of the Levant. Ashkenazi females are said to be Italian in origin.

The Hebrews originated from the ancient Canaanites because Hebrew is a Canaanite language in origin. The Israelites and Jews originated from the Hebrews so there are indigenous peoples of the Levant as according to Y-DNA.

Haplogroup J originated in the Middle East 48 000 years ago and still is the majority Haplogroup of the indigenous peoples of the Middle East.

All the above from Wikipedia.

27-01-19, 02:16
Z18271 is the best candidate for haplogroup of Biblical Israelites. I suppose that FGC17491 lineage may be haplogroup of Judah's descendants (because it has 3 lineages with TMRCA about 2900 ybp in YFull, I think that age is about 20-25% older) and Y5400 may be Levi's lineage (which was seriously bottlenecked, so remaining samples may be from descendants of Aaron). It is possible that lineages of other Abraham's descendants than Jacob (sons of Keturah, Ishmael, Esau) did not survive to modern times.

08-02-19, 01:02
There is another candidate for Israel's haplogroup from J-P58: Y6074 aka FGC8712: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y6074/.

Its TMRCA estimated by YFull (3200 ybp) is a bit larger than TMRCA estimated for Y3088 (2900 ybp). Muhammad probably belonged to FGC8712 subclade.

Most FGC8712 holders belong to lineage L859, which has 13 SNPs of bottleneck. Its age may be even about 2500 ybp, not only 1450 as YFull suggests.

There is also ZS2121 lineage which has two subbranches: one (Jewish) with 20 SNPs of bottleneck (larger, TMRCA about 1500 - 2000 ybp) and one smaller, found in Armenia (id:YF15038).

There is also result of FGC8712 without L859 and ZS2121 - maybe that lineage (id:YF01711) is of one of sons of Abraham and Keturah or Esau?

Y3088 appears to be better candidate for Jacob's haplogroup because it is more popular among Jews that FGC8712 and more branched (Y3088 has 8 branches with TMRCA about 2900 ybp (which may be about 25% larger), while ZS2121 has only two recognised branches with age of formation about 3200 - 4000 ybp).

Here is a tree of FGC8712 haplogroup: https://fgc8712.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/quraysh-tree-e-11222018.png.

Here is a tree of J1 haplogroup (which probably was not edited since more than a year from now): http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree.

25-02-19, 00:59
On Y3088 tree in YFull new sample of J-Y3088* appeared, its analysis is in progress. It looks that we have 9 separate branches of Z18271! Any other haplogroup does not correlate so well with Jewish people as Z18271. 7 of 9 branches of Z18271 have just one representative on YFull tree.

FTDNA #161627 shares 5 SNPs with ERR1395620 from YFull tree.

18-03-19, 00:41
On YFull another example of Y3088* appeared (id:YF19411 from Turkey). It looks that we know at least 10 separate lineages of Z18271. Maybe Ten Tribes were not lost? Now there is 12 samples of Y3088xY5400.

On YFull tree there is 12 samples of Y5402 (subbranch of Y5400 aka S12192) with TMRCA just about 800 ybp.

07-05-19, 23:48
On YFull tree we have new sample of Y3088* - id:YF63251. There are 11 lineages descending from Y3088 (Z18271) on that tree, 9 of them have only one sample.

There are 25 samples of Y5400 (S12192), who share 13 SNPs. 13 of them have TMRCA about 800 ybp, according to YFull.

Mohamad Ali
13-05-19, 01:33
FGC8712 (& ZS2121) is a stronger candidate than Y3088 (& Z18271). If you trace back Y3088 to ZS241, its origin seems from South-Western Arabia (Yemeni) intercepted by a Phoenician migration to south Europe (Italy and Portugal). Here is an updated version of the ZS241 tree with stronger focus on branches above ZS227.

For the reasons you mentioned on Feb. 7th, and many other reasons, FGC8712 remains a better representation of the biblical Abraham.

13-06-19, 16:55
Where can I find admixture figures for Middle eastern ethnic groups like Jewish, Saudis, Lebanese, Persians, Egyptians. Please reply I need it very much.

01-07-19, 23:46
Fragment from https://selfhacked.com/blog/cohen-modal-haplotype/ about Z18271 (with my emphasis):

Genetics research published in 2013 and 2016 for haplogroup J1 places the Y-chromosomal Aaron within subgroup Z18271, with an age estimate 2,638 – 3,280 years ago.

In a study published in 2009, based on genotypes at 12 markers (Y-STRs), they identified an extended CMH on the J-P58* background that predominates in both Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Cohanim and is remarkably absent in non-Jews.

The estimated divergence time of this lineage based on 17 STRs is 3,190 +/- 1,090 years. These results support the hypothesis of a common origin of the CMH in the Near East well before the dispersion of the Jewish people into separate communities, and indicate that the majority of contemporary Jewish priests descend from a limited number of paternal lineages.
Age of Z18271 may appear to be 4280 - 2100 years. Yfull gives 2900 years, but estimations of YFull may be about 25% to young. So it looks quite probable that TMRCA of Z18271 is about 3650 - 3800 ybp, when Jacob lived.

02-07-19, 02:35
Of course there is also my cousin, R1a-CTS6, that is a predominant Ashkenazic priestly line as well. Not Cohen, but a broadly Levite lineage in the Ashkenazim community.

03-07-19, 00:21
It looks that not all J-P58 Cohens are descendants of Jacob, Levi and Aaron. I suppose that not all Cohens with ZS241 and even Z18271 are Aaron's descendants in straight male lineage. It appears quite possible that S12192 (Y5400) lineage is from Aaron and even High Priest Zadok (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadok) who lived during reign of David and Solomon.

#221995 i #N32022 with ancestors with surname Cohen are not from S12192 lineage, but from BY79, another subclade of Z18271. #161627 (Kogen from Russia) is from ZS2458 subclade. I found no Cohen-associated surnames among ZS2434 samples (it is quite large branch). #544496 (name Cohen) may be Z18271xS12192, this sample may form separate cluster of Z18271. #200020 (surname Aronson) may also form a branch of Z18271 other than remaining ones. It appears that about 60% of all Z18271 samples are from the branch Y5400 (S12192). Many (I would even say vast majority of) Z18271 holders are not Cohens.

#183650 with name Cohen probably is not Z18271+, also even not ZS222+ or ZS227+, it may be an early branch of ZS241. I found four individuals (like #1334) who have name Cohen and have ancestors from Lithuania (3 of them) and nearby region of Belarus (1 sample) who may be ZS227+ but ZS222- and Z18271-, another branch of ZS227* may be associated with #162348 (name Cohen, from USA), like #347208 with surname Kaplan (which means "priest") from Lithuania.

19-10-19, 22:59
Last times tree of ZS241 (Y3081) changed. In YFull base there is sample id:YF65400, which is negative for Y3082/FGC13873/Z18260 mutation.
I think that ZS241xZ18271 is not associated with Israelites.

TMRCA of Y3088 (Z18271) changed from 2900 ybp to 3100 ybp last times. Now it is closer to time of Jacob. id:YF65051 is positive for 2 SNPs from Y5400 lineage and negative for 14 others! I suppose that this sample from Mexico (Guerrero) is associated with Levi tribe, possibly not with Aaron's lineage.

I suppose that another candidate for Israelite hapologroup might be FGC8712 (Y6074).

I suppose that Muhammad might be descendant of Isaac and Jacob patrilineally, not Ishmael, based on text of the Quran (Surah 45: 16 - And verily We gave the Children of Israel the Scripture and the Command and the Prophethood, and provided them with good things and favoured them above all peoples), so it may suggest that if Muhammad is a prophet of Allah (and very important, last one), Muhammad is descended patrilineally from Jacob (Israel), not Ishmael. And, of course, I do not want to cause sin and disbelief, heresy in anyone.

On YFull tree there is sample id:YF66196 from Saudi Arabia marked as Y6074*. Maybe it is fourth lineage of FGC8712? I suppose that all FGC8712 may be descendants of Isaac, not just ZS2121 found in Jews.

20-10-19, 13:55
the reason why the Jews of Yathrib (Medinah today) whom are from Bani Israel (descendants of Isaac Peace be upon him) didn't accept Prophet Muhammad even though they KNEW a prophet will come soon, is that because he's descendant of Ismael Peace be upon him ... not Isaac PBUH , and all the Arabians in Arabia know that Banu Hashem (of Quraysh tribe) are sons of Ismael and to this date they have the clearest lineage among all Bani Ismael and Israel for that they trace their lineage for ~60 generations documented and well known to everyone ... and them being under J-L859 make the FGC8712 a strong candidate for children of Abrahim PBUH and that Bani Israel would be under ZS2121 , but of course there's possibility that Abrahim is older than FGC8712 and Bani Israel might be ZS241 (zs227), and ZS2121 is just a branch of some Qurayshi clan ? like maybe Bani Ummayah ?

as for the 16th verse of Al-Jathiyah chapter that you mentioned , it's about specific times when they got revelations and scriptures (Torah and Al-Injeel) and had kings and Obeyed Allah , but it is not about all the time because we know that there were Prophets before them (like Noah PBUH) and after (Muhammad PBUH) .. read Tafseer it should help you understanding the verses
also the verse and the 17th one (i'll quote it next) uses "Them" which means that Muhammad PBUH is excluded from that group (Bani Israel)
and if we continue reading
"And We gave them clear proofs of the matter [of religion]. And they did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. Indeed, your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ."
Al-Jathiyah verse 17

20-10-19, 14:08
to add more, Wathilah bin Al-Asqa' "وَاثِلَةَ بْنَ الْأَسْقَعِ" (a companion) heard that the prophet PBUH said in a Hadith (prophet sayings / teachings)
"that Allah chose Kinanah out of Bani Ismael, and Chose Quraysh out of Kinanah, and Chose out of Quraysh Banu Hashem, and Chose me out of Banu Hashem." (hopefully i translated it correctly)
Hadith in Book Sahih Muslim no.(2276)
the homeland of Quraysh is Makkah which is the cradle of Bani Ismael and where Ismael peace be upon him lived after he and Hajar moved away

03-12-20, 22:16
https://www.academia.edu/43340967/Tracing_the_yDNA_Lineage_of_Aharon_Aaron_the_Pries t_New_Preliminary_Evidence_Refines_Understanding_o f_Presumptive_Levitic_and_Cohanic_Lineages - Tracing the yDNA Lineage of Aharon the Priest: New Preliminary Evidence Refines Understanding of Presumptive Levitic and Cohanic Lineages. Very interesting article!

It seems that entire Z18271 may be the haplogroup of Jacob (Israel) and S17446 looks to be a lineage which descends from Levi, maybe even from Aaron also.

ZS2435 is quite large lineage below Z18271, but there are no or at least almost no (obviously few) Cohens from this lineage! It looks interesting. Does lineage J-ZS2435 descends from other Jacob's son than Levi? I may suppose so!

I am almost certain that the founder of Z18271 clade (Jacob - Israel?) was born before 3200 ybp.