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Alyan
17-05-18, 02:40
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X17308568

Angela
17-05-18, 03:38
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X17308568

Someone is going to have to get the paper and let us know, because this sentence makes absolutely no sense, not to mention they're talking about one site.

"Population pairwise ΦST values suggest that Roman Italians share closer genetic similarity to Neolithic, Bronze Age, and Armenian Iron Age populations from western and central Europe than with Iron Age Italians, Ptolemaic, and Roman period Egyptians."

If they can't write an English sentence that makes sense, what on earth will the analysis be like?

Alyan
17-05-18, 03:56
https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/sd/30C43C9E427DDF1AA33E100A70C6ED9ADEAF57E6E915F3B655 E1B4CB249F3D432D0EE35827F0FEDC48718300F0503442

Here's the PDF.

(https://twitter.com/BioarchItalia/status/994253172398018560)https://twitter.com/BioarchItalia/status/994253172398018560

Link to paper from twitter.

(https://twitter.com/BioarchItalia/status/994253172398018560)

davef
17-05-18, 04:29
Someone is going to have to get the paper and let us know, because this sentence makes absolutely no sense, not to mention they're talking about one site.

"Population pairwise ΦST values suggest that Roman Italians share closer genetic similarity to Neolithic, Bronze Age, and Armenian Iron Age populations from western and central Europe than with Iron Age Italians, Ptolemaic, and Roman period Egyptians."

If they can't write an English sentence that makes sense, what on earth will the analysis be like?
Wow, someone needs a proofreader. I suggest the author reads this sentence over again until it DOESNT make sense:
"An ARMENIAN Iron Age population from western and Central Europe."
"An ARMENIAN Iron Age population from western and Central Europe."

Salento
17-05-18, 05:11
Wow, someone needs a proofreader. I suggest the author reads this sentence over again until it DOESNT make sense:
"An ARMENIAN Iron Age population from western and Central Europe."
"An ARMENIAN Iron Age population from western and Central Europe."

I make mistake like that sometimes too. (If it is a mistake).

"An ARMENIAN Iron Age population that ”spread, went, migrated” to western and Central Europe”.
I’m assuming. :)

davef
17-05-18, 05:39
I make mistake like that sometimes too. (If it is a mistake).

"An ARMENIAN Iron Age population that ”spread, went, migrated” to western and Central Europe”.
I’m assuming. :)

Yeah because Armenians are from Armenia.

Salento
17-05-18, 05:50
Yeah because Armenians are from Armenia.
Every time I write the word “Get” it is because I can’t remember the appropriate word. lol
I have mastered all forms and combinations of “To Get”.
My Favorite English Word. lol

Angela
17-05-18, 06:28
Gentlemen, these are native English speakers, although you'd never know it. Who the h passed this in the peer review process. Christ, they're letting illiterates into graduate schools. I hate to break it to people, but math skills are not enough.

davef
17-05-18, 07:15
I score way way way higher in math in comparison to anything that concerns languages (my essays were so full of red ink i bet the professors had to buy new pens lol but they did occasionally save ink by putting a huge red X over an entire page lol) and I still picked that up in a heartbeat.

lol this is 100 percent totally off topic but I remember an English teacher back in 12th grade splitting everyone into groups and we had to read the beginning of Beowulf and when the teacher would then ask someone from each group to interpret its meaning. I was called and I said "Uuuuh....god loves the king and Beowulf. They were...uhh...pagans but god loved them". Yes the other students laughed lol but I had no idea what I was reading

Really sorry, that was way off topic everyone and I'll try not to stray as much

Alyan
17-05-18, 07:17
Meh, the paper doesn't seem to say all much for the Romans thanks to only including mtDNA. Looks like we have to wait until de Angelis' paper on Imperial Rome comes out to get better.

Angela
17-05-18, 07:22
"Pre "Roman" site:Burials were interred with grave goods characteristic of native Apulian pottery traditions with shifting burial customs ranging from Iron Age Italic to Hellenistic in nature. Individuals were interred according to both local and Greek customs, with tomb structures during the 6th century BCE taking the form of pit extensions and sarcophagi. However, the flexed burial positions at Botromagno are consistent with Italic traditions of the Early to Middle southern Italian Iron Age, remaining unchanged until larger, increasingly elaborate semicamara tombs were constructed in the 4th century BCE."

Roman site of Vagnari: " Current evidence points to a community engaged in agricultural and industrial production likely driven by slaves, lower-class workers, and/or freedmen who lived onsite at the adjacent vicus.".

"over half of the Vagnari occupants (58%) were local to the site, and a further 34% were identified as originating from southern Italy. Approximately 7% of the individuals analyzed were likely born outside of South Italy, from either northern Italy or further afield from Europe and North Africa (Emery et al., 2018 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X17308568#bb0130)). "

This was basically published already, although the percentages have changed a little.

The mtDNA from the Roman villa:

https://i.imgur.com/e9xHrqN.png

:

https://i.imgur.com/xQyoQdp.png

https://i.imgur.com/b0nD0Yi.png

I don't see anything very exotic here apart from two M and two D, but maybe Maciamo can chime in: MtDna isn't my forte.

The sequences from the "Italic" site with "Greek" influence are fewer and have quite a bit of U5 and U4, approximately 1/3. I don't know how important that is, given it's a specifically Italic hamlet.



LIAV11
H6a1a


LIAV12
J2b1a2


LIAV20
U5b2c


LIAV29
H5'36


LIAV31
U5a1


LIAV32
H


LIAV33
H


LIAV37
U3b1b


LIAV38
U4a1


LIAV4
U4b1a1a1


LIAV40
H


LIAV43
U2e3


LIAV45
H2


LIAV7
V18


LIAV8
H1+152

Angela
17-05-18, 07:42
Yeah, we know:

"Although the scaling distance for mtDNAs by country show that South Italy shares closer mtDNAs with Portugal, Greece, Armenia, Spain, and Egypt, ΦST values are skewed by disproportionate mtDNAs from different time periods (Fig. 3 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X17308568#f0015)c). Instead, population pairwise distance by time period suggests a high degree of mtDNA structuring. Multi-dimensional scaling shown in Fig. 3 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X17308568#f0015)a supports the hypothesis that post-LGM admixture in southern Italy was driven by early Neolithic migrants stemming from the Near East (possibly out of Anatolia following a Mediterranean route), indicated here by low differentiation ΦST values (and scaling distance) between Neolithic and post-Neolithic time periods "

They're still at it:
"Roman Italian mtDNA population pairwise distance suggests greater genetic affinities with Neolithic, Bronze Age, and Armenian Iron Age populations from central and southern Europe, than to the Iron Age Italian population, pointing to a higher degree of maternal gene flow from the Mediterranean region during the Roman period (Fig. 3 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X17308568#f0015)b). Alternatively, the greater ΦST disparity between Iron Age and Roman period southern Italians than with Bronze Age Greeks and Neolithic samples from across Europe possibly indicates moderate mtDNA influx following the subjugation of Italic tribes and installation of Roman colonies (coloniae) after the 3rd century BCE (Cornell, 1995 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X17308568#bb0090); La Torre, 2011 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X17308568#bb0180); Small, 2002 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X17308568#bb0310)) (Fig. 3 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X17308568#f0015)b)."

I guess Armenians did go to Central Europe. :)

On the other hand:

" We hypothesize that Iron Age and Roman populations represent continuous occupation of the Puglia region over a 650-year period. Coalescent Skygrid results suggest that, despite this documented period of conflict, the effective female population size was comparable between the Iron Age and the Roman period, potentially pointing to a continuous female population size between the late Iron Age and Roman periods in southern Italy (Fig. 4 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X17308568#f0020)). However, considerably more mtDNA representation over the interim period (3rd–2nd centuries BCE) is required to fully assess whether prolonged warfare and enslavement contributed to population decline during the period immediately after Roman conquest (i.e., 3rd century BCE) of South Italy."

They're all over the place. If someone can make heads or tails out of this thing, be my guest.

I1a3_Young
22-05-18, 01:57
LRV149 H5b - interesting. I wonder if that is one of the non-locals.

Ernekar
22-05-18, 02:11
LRV149 H5b - interesting. I wonder if that is one of the non-locals.
Interesting. At last some more ancient H5b.
If i remember correctly H5b has also been found in Vinca culture and Srubna culture. So a very weird ancient DNA distribution so far imo.