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View Full Version : Here we go again:The populism and dystopia of Italy's new government



gyms
24-05-18, 18:53
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/populism-dystopia-italy-government-180521123827027.html

More importantly, the two parties have a clear anti-immigrant plan. They propose to create new detention centres across Italy where undocumented migrants are to be kept before deportation. They promise to shut down Roma settlements and mosques whenever they are deemed "illegal".

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/22/opinions/italy-next-government-europe-next-crisis-opinion-intl/index.html

What they probably mean is that a new coalition, composed of xenophobic populists, demagogues and the far right, could damage the European Union -- or worse, blow up Europe at large.

Salento
24-05-18, 20:28
Giuseppe Conte, the chosen one (will see if he gets the fiducia) is a Native of Puglia.
I must give him the benefit of the doubts as PM. He is an Independent.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Conte

Salento
24-05-18, 21:22
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/populism-dystopia-italy-government-180521123827027.html

More importantly, the two parties have a clear anti-immigrant plan. They propose to create new detention centres across Italy where undocumented migrants are to be kept before deportation. They promise to shut down Roma settlements and mosques whenever they are deemed "illegal".

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/22/opinions/italy-next-government-europe-next-crisis-opinion-intl/index.html

What they probably mean is that a new coalition, composed of xenophobic populists, demagogues and the far right, could damage the European Union -- or worse, blow up Europe at large.
I doubt that any of the proposals you listed will be adopted. That’s only propaganda.

Sile
24-05-18, 21:50
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/populism-dystopia-italy-government-180521123827027.html
More importantly, the two parties have a clear anti-immigrant plan. They propose to create new detention centres across Italy where undocumented migrants are to be kept before deportation. They promise to shut down Roma settlements and mosques whenever they are deemed "illegal".
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/22/opinions/italy-next-government-europe-next-crisis-opinion-intl/index.html
What they probably mean is that a new coalition, composed of xenophobic populists, demagogues and the far right, could damage the European Union -- or worse, blow up Europe at large.
fantastic.................immigrants should seek legal methods if they want to enter any country to settle ..................In australia we fly out illegals daily or the ones processed and found not suitable...............
.
.
.
I see you got the news from aljazeera who accept the saudi of zero immigration even if they are fellow arabs :good_job:

Salento
24-05-18, 22:03
fantastic.................immigrants should seek legal methods if they want to enter any country to settle ..................In australia we fly out illegals daily or the ones processed and found not suitable...............

If they fly you out of Australia, come to America. We’ll treat you with respect.
Just in case pm me and I’ll get you a really good Lawyer. :)
(Do the same for me please, if they kick me out of here) lol
Citizens or not “Persona non grata” might still apply.

ps I saved the post by mistake before I was done. it happens all the time with my iPhone app. All Y T have BIG HANDS lol.

gyms
24-05-18, 22:58
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44214499

Italian Renaissance History.
The Beginning of a New Age.

https://www.italian-renaissance-art.com/Italian-renaissance.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDaaqyYPK4Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDaaqyYPK4Q)

Silesian
24-05-18, 23:10
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/populism-dystopia-italy-government-180521123827027.html

More importantly, the two parties have a clear anti-immigrant plan. They propose to create new detention centres across Italy where undocumented migrants are to be kept before deportation. They promise to shut down Roma settlements and mosques whenever they are deemed "illegal".

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/22/opinions/italy-next-government-europe-next-crisis-opinion-intl/index.html

What they probably mean is that a new coalition, composed of xenophobic populists, demagogues and the far right, could damage the European Union -- or worse, blow up Europe at large.


Here is a tangential point with regard to resources and population[transplanting populations from low green house gas regions-solar friendly] . In US and or Canada someone wants to find a river and make a dam [or make a wind turbine] create electricity with no-zero emmision green-house gas and or not harm rare native habitat[animals and vegetation] environmental impact studies and bylaw regulations have to be put into consideration. Here is an example of someone being jailed, for trying to make electricity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jnwhJ3X1Qg

However if hundreds of thousands of people [millions]are transplanted as immigrants to a new area; do the same bureaucrats/governments provide a plan and environmental impact studies as to how water/electricity/garbage/sewage/traffic congestion[green house gasses] will affect/stress the region[native endangered wildlife and or vegetation]?

I'm pretty sure before mass immigration; indigenous peoples in Canada could find a place with clean water on their lands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTNa15e4KxA

bicicleur
25-05-18, 00:00
there is more
they promote an 'Italia first' policy
it involves making more debts and breaking EU austerity rules
we've seen where that has lead to in Greece

Angela
25-05-18, 00:52
Every country should and does put its own country first whatever they may say publicly. Italy should have gotten out of the Eurozone ages ago. It's in its best interest. They should start negotiating for it NOW.

That doesn't mean I think this government has a prayer of making things better. Too much fuzzy left wing thinking and not enough capitalist thinking.

"Green" regulation run amok is a stupid idea. So is undoing the retirement reforms. I understand that when you have such high unemployment among young people getting people out of the workforce isn't a bad idea, but this isn't the way to put more young people to work.

They need to institute more market reforms, not fewer ones.

It's just a muddle because you're yoking together left and right whose only common denominator seems to be anti-immigration and hatred of the status quo.

As for anti-corruption the League has already been proven to be corrupt.

It's a mess, but I'm not paying taxes there yet, so I'm usually told to shut up.

Just a note about indigenous people in North America and fresh water. It depends where you are. The American Indian reservations in the southwest often have almost no fresh water because they gave them worthless desert land.

Ygorcs
25-05-18, 01:02
I see you got the news from aljazeera who accept the saudi of zero immigration even if they are fellow arabs :good_job:

Actually Al-Jazeera belongs to Qatar, the enemy No. 1 of Saudi Arabia in the Arabian Peninsula, but not only that: all the Arabian Gulf Emirates and Saudi Arabia maybe be very bent on heavily restricting citizenship to foreign residents and establishing a de facto "2nd class" status for non-natives, but they are very far from anything remotely resembling "zero immigration". Actually, those are some of the countries with a highest % of immigrant population in the entire world, in some of the Emirates more than 50-60%, and in Saudi Arabia as many as 1/3 of the population. That's not exactly an "anti-immigration" policy, it's just an anti-democratic and anti-citizenship policy.

Sile
25-05-18, 01:10
If they fly you out of Australia, come to America. We’ll treat you with respect.
Just in case pm me and I’ll get you a really good Lawyer. :)
(Do the same for me please, if they kick me out of here) lol
Citizens or not “Persona non grata” might still apply.
ps I saved the post by mistake before I was done. it happens all the time with my iPhone app. All Y T have BIG HANDS lol.
lol
fat fingers with big hands or just fat fingers ?
.
Australia will send back the italian drug courier in 7 years ( after jail time ) ..........get a lawyer for him once he arrives as he will be "looked" at in Italy
.

Sile
25-05-18, 01:19
Actually Al-Jazeera belongs to Qatar, the enemy No. 1 of Saudi Arabia in the Arabian Peninsula, but not only that: all the Arabian Gulf Emirates and Saudi Arabia maybe be very bent on heavily restricting citizenship to foreign residents and establishing a de facto "2nd class" status for non-natives, but they are very far from anything remotely resembling "zero immigration". Actually, those are some of the countries with a highest % of immigrant population in the entire world, in some of the Emirates more than 50-60%, and in Saudi Arabia as many as 1/3 of the population. That's not exactly an "anti-immigration" policy, it's just an anti-democratic and anti-citizenship policy.

if people want immigrants to go wherever they want then remove national borders............while you have national borders , you have different rules for each nation...........you cannot have both

Salento
25-05-18, 01:26
lol
fat fingers with big hands or just fat fingers ?
.
Australia will send back the italian drug courier in 7 years ( after jail time ) ..........get a lawyer for him once he arrives as he will be "looked" at in italy
.

lol lol lol You know my cousin too?
small World. ;)

Ygorcs
25-05-18, 01:32
if people want immigrants to go wherever they want then remove national borders............while you have national borders , you have different rules for each nation...........you cannot have both

What you say has nothing to do with what I commented. Nobody here is arguing for immigrants to go wherever they want. But a simplistic anti-immigration policy without any alternative to the many demographic and economic challenges related to this situation is nothing but facile demagoguery.

I just commented that there was nothing even remotely ironic about taking a report from Al-Jazeera. Your comment linking Al-Jazeera, Saudis and "zero immigration" made no sense in this real world, that's it, period.

Silesian
25-05-18, 02:30
if people want immigrants to go wherever they want then remove national borders............while you have national borders , you have different rules for each nation...........you cannot have both
Remove culture and customs and bring in new style ideas?
Before anyone gets upset a little humor; like the all purpose combo fountain wash station.

LeBrok
25-05-18, 15:48
Remove culture and customs and bring in new style ideas?
Before anyone gets upset a little humor; like the all purpose combo fountain wash station.
You've made fun of mentally sick person. Most likely a homeless guy too. Think before you post, bud.

Sile
25-05-18, 19:48
Giuseppe Conte, the chosen one (will see if he gets the fiducia) is a Native of Puglia.
I must give him the benefit of the doubts as PM. He is an Independent.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Conte

Did you hear of any chit-chat that if Italy drops the euro currency but stays in the EU that they will introduce the Florin as its currency as they do not want all the "hidden under the bed" old Lira to emerge.
I just keep hearing rumours of a , stay in EU , leave its currency ...........something like what the UK had

Salento
25-05-18, 21:46
Did you hear of any chit-chat that if Italy drops the euro currency but stays in the EU that they will introduce the Florin as its currency as they do not want all the "hidden under the bed" old Lira to emerge.
I just keep hearing rumours of a , stay in EU , leave its currency ...........something like what the UK had

I didn’t hear anything about the Florin, but people are unhappy about the Euro. For any change though they would need a referendum and after that they would probably have a technocrat government to make all the changes necessary just like when they adopted the Euro.. IMO.

(have a blast: follow the link, - got an error with the app, use “web view” first if you are using the app ....) :)
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34637-Fun-feel-good-videos/page9?p=544522&viewfull=1#post544522

Silesian
26-05-18, 02:29
You've made fun of mentally sick person. Most likely a homeless guy too. Think before you post, bud.

Really. how do you know this?
I remember a time when I took care of various rental unit buildings in a large populated city in Canada. You might be surprised[various customs using washroom facility], but people were actually defecating on car windshields and door handles[a mess if you have to clean], elevators[servicemen refused to do safety maintenance until clean] , and in stairwells, workplace washrooms, in urinals, and on the floor. I thought it was a different custom[I would not have made light of the public gesture if \i thought the individual had a mental illness]; did not think of them as mentally sick and homeless, should I have?
In Canada we have case of mental illness and discharge that made it to the news.
https://globalnews.ca/news/3242308/man-who-beheaded-greyhound-bus-passenger-granted-full-discharge/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Tim_McLean

IronSide
26-05-18, 03:48
Actually Al-Jazeera belongs to Qatar, the enemy No. 1 of Saudi Arabia in the Arabian Peninsula, but not only that: all the Arabian Gulf Emirates and Saudi Arabia maybe be very bent on heavily restricting citizenship to foreign residents and establishing a de facto "2nd class" status for non-natives, but they are very far from anything remotely resembling "zero immigration". Actually, those are some of the countries with a highest % of immigrant population in the entire world, in some of the Emirates more than 50-60%, and in Saudi Arabia as many as 1/3 of the population. That's not exactly an "anti-immigration" policy, it's just an anti-democratic and anti-citizenship policy.

All this is correct.

Arabian gulf countries do indeed have a lot of foreign residents, they don't integrate and as far as I know they don't want to acquire citizenship, and people don't care either way if they want to become citizens, I've never seen any negative reaction from local arabs.

Silesian
26-05-18, 04:12
All this is correct.
tt
Arabian gulf countries do indeed have a lot of foreign residents, they don't integrate and as far as I know they don't want to acquire citizenship, and people don't care either way if they want to become citizens, I've never seen any negative reaction from local arabs.
The other day I had a interesting talk with a Jordanian who had just come from Scotland . His father had worked for [more than 10 years] in one of the Gulf countries. So I asked him where his father liked it the best Canada /Gulf country/ Jordan? He replied his father liked the Gulf country the best, so then I replied why he was not living there[after 20 years]he replied they denied him citizenship. I have had similar conversations with Pakastani's and other south Asians working and living in Arab states. One Filipino gave an example of a very negative experience that I cannot relate. Another West African I befriended, also related a negative experience with regards to Arabs states.

IronSide
26-05-18, 05:08
The other day I had a interesting talk with a Jordanian who had just come from Scotland . His father had worked for [more than 10 years] in one of the Gulf countries. So I asked him where his father liked it the best Canada /Gulf country/ Jordan? He replied his father liked the Gulf country the best, so then I replied why he was not living there[after 20 years]he replied they denied him citizenship. I have had similar conversations with Pakastani's and other south Asians working and living in Arab states. One Filipino gave an example of a very negative experience that I cannot relate. Another West African I befriended, also related a negative experience with regards to Arabs states.

Well it seems I don't know much then, I'm an athiest humanist outcast that doesn't participate in society or culture, hehe .. so I could be wrong.

Boreas
26-05-18, 06:46
Italy: we are talking about the one of the founder country of EU, which is top five in European Justice Court in case rank and racing Non-EU countries such as Ukraine-Turkey-Russia.

So don't get so much hope about them.

RAWALP
26-05-18, 10:18
This reveals more about posters than anything else .whose dystrophy.

Sent from my MIX 2 using Tapatalk

Ailchu
26-05-18, 15:42
Actually Al-Jazeera belongs to Qatar, the enemy No. 1 of Saudi Arabia in the Arabian Peninsula, but not only that: all the Arabian Gulf Emirates and Saudi Arabia maybe be very bent on heavily restricting citizenship to foreign residents and establishing a de facto "2nd class" status for non-natives, but they are very far from anything remotely resembling "zero immigration". Actually, those are some of the countries with a highest % of immigrant population in the entire world, in some of the Emirates more than 50-60%, and in Saudi Arabia as many as 1/3 of the population. That's not exactly an "anti-immigration" policy, it's just an anti-democratic and anti-citizenship policy.

saudi arabia does have quite a lot of foreigners but its almost impossible to get citizenship for them. you can get it if your father is arab. its also possible if your mother is saudi but its a bit harder. foreign women can get it through marriage with a saudi.
thats not the case for foreign men.
its extremely hard to become saudi in another way. you definitly ALWAYS HAVE to be muslim.
those foreigners are all guest workers who are there for work and once they lose their job they are asked to leave the country.
saudis and oreigners also live separated from each other. western people live in special compounds were they are allowed to practice their western lifestyle.
i mean they are open for immigration over their borders into their country but they actually do not let people immigrate into their society. it's so different from actual "real" immigration in europe.

IronSide
26-05-18, 16:36
saudi arabia does have quite a lot of foreigners but its almost impossible to get citizenship for them. you can get it if your father is arab. its also possible if your mother is saudi but its a bit harder. foreign women can get it through marriage with a saudi. thats not the case for foreign men.
its extremely hard to become saudi in another way. you definitly have to be muslim.
those foreigners are all guest workers who are there for work and once they lose their job they are asked to leave the country.
saudis and oreigners also live separated from each other. western people live in special compounds were they are allowed to practice their western lifestyle.
i mean they are open for immigration over their borders into their country but they actually do not let people immigrate into their society. it's so different from actual "real" immigration in europe.

Who wants to become Saudi anyway ?

Boreas
26-05-18, 18:01
Who wants to become Saudi anyway ?

if you were Bangladeshis, it would be great. At first you became citizen then you could bring your family.

Ailchu
26-05-18, 19:57
Who wants to become Saudi anyway ?

i'm pretty sure there are quite a lot of africans and asians who would like to have the benefits of beeing saudi in saudi arabia. especially when they are already working there and see all the advantages that it would give them.

bicicleur
27-05-18, 14:06
i'm pretty sure there are quite a lot of africans and asians who would like to have the benefits of beeing saudi in saudi arabia. especially when they are already working there and see all the advantages that it would give them.

yes, the same reason why they want to become European, even without the working

gyms
27-05-18, 15:23
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/25/nice-idea-but-europeans-on-what-went-wrong-eu

"The main problem with the EU is that it incorporates loads of countries, and they are so vastly different in every way: welfare, economics, everything. To correct this the EU will have to make the richer countries poorer. So I would like to do a Swexit – have a referendum like in the UK, and leave."

Boreas
27-05-18, 16:36
To correct this the EU will have to make the richer countries poorer.

We call it social justice. The problem is managing.

Germany and France with Benelux countries should start new EU.

Salento
27-05-18, 18:10
Changing old words with new words is
deceptive imho.
Social Justice:
The distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society.
Communism:
is a type of government that relies on collectivization of labor and good.

A wolf (communism) in sheep's clothing (social justice).

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/wolf-in-sheeps-clothing1.jpg

Ygorcs
27-05-18, 19:13
The other day I had a interesting talk with a Jordanian who had just come from Scotland . His father had worked for [more than 10 years] in one of the Gulf countries. So I asked him where his father liked it the best Canada /Gulf

I've heard/read similar accounts. It seems to me the states (I can't say how the general society feels about it, it must have a wide variation from region to region, person to person) are willing to accept foreign work, but not heavy and direct foreign influence at the very core of the citizenry and national culture, which would definitely happen if they just gave citizenship and full rights to the huge portion of foreign residents within their territories (IIRC in the UAE the native Arabs are now less than 20% of the population!).

Boreas
27-05-18, 21:19
Changing old words with new words is
deceptive imho.

I won't argue with a murican
10216

About Gulf Countries, Arab-Foreigner Populations
http://gulfmigration.eu/gcc-total-population-percentage-nationals-foreign-nationals-gcc-countries-national-statistics-2010-2016-numbers/

Salento
27-05-18, 22:15
I won't argue with a murican

“I ain’t a Murican” (Derogatory for American). I’m an American.
EDITED —- bc You don’t deserve to Know my Story!
Your Comment implies that I should refrain from expressing my views on European and ME-NA political, and Social matters, because being an American has clouded my perspective, and that I don’t understand your part of the World. :(

Angela
28-05-18, 00:48
I won't argue with a murican
10216

About Gulf Countries, Arab-Foreigner Populations
http://gulfmigration.eu/gcc-total-population-percentage-nationals-foreign-nationals-gcc-countries-national-statistics-2010-2016-numbers/

Insult another nationality again and you'll get an infraction. Clear?

Pax Augusta
28-05-18, 04:10
Giuseppe Conte, Italian prime minister-designate, has resigned the mandate. Because the President of the Republic Sergio Mattarella has not accepted the name proposed as Minister of Economy for his anti-EURO feelings. It is in the constitutional rights of the President of the Republic to act like this, and tomorrow he will try to appoint as Prime Minister-designate the economist Carlo Cottarelli. But apparently Cottarelli does not have a majority of consensus in the Parliament. So either something happens or we will be back to elections soon.

Pax Augusta
28-05-18, 04:14
there is more
they promote an 'Italia first' policy
it involves making more debts and breaking EU austerity rules
we've seen where that has lead to in Greece

More complicated than that.

Sile
28-05-18, 07:30
Giuseppe Conte, Italian prime minister-designate, has resigned the mandate. Because the President of the Republic Sergio Mattarella has not accepted the name proposed as Minister of Economy for his anti-EURO feelings. It is in the constitutional rights of the President of the Republic to act like this, and tomorrow he will try to appoint as Prime Minister-designate the economist Carlo Cottarelli. But apparently Cottarelli does not have a majority of consensus in the Parliament. So either something happens or we will be back to elections soon.
he most likely refused after a chat with brussels...........sounds like what happened with the economy misters of Greece and UK in the past ............EU already rule the economies of the 27 or 28 EU nations.
.
Even if Italy goes to the polls again , the same scenario can happen in regards to the economy minister

Boreas
28-05-18, 08:23
“I ain’t a Murican” (Derogatory for American). I’m an American.
EDITED —- bc You don’t deserve to Know my Story!
Your Comment implies that I should refrain from expressing my views on European and ME-NA political, and Social matters, because being an American has clouded my perspective, and that I don’t understand your part of the World. :(

I am not sorry to use word murica, The aim is not an insult. However I am sorry to misundertand me orr cause this misunderstnading.

It is very common word between countryball community.
(Muricaball / Long Live Murica)
http://polandball.wikia.com/wiki/USAball

Even I shared a smurf post to make clear that it is a joke term.

Murica term is a symbol for Conservative American culture, not more.

Your wolf - communism post make me with that you are very conservative American. Thinking all lefting ideology are part of communism, is political insult.



EDITED —- bc You don’t deserve to Know my Story!

I suggest you to take a one glass of wine to get relax.



I don’t understand your part of the World. :(

So did you insult my part of world ? :grin:

We are living on same planet my friend.

exceededminimumso..
28-05-18, 13:28
Changing old words with new words is
deceptive imho.
Social Justice:
The distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society.
Communism:
is a type of government that relies on collectivization of labor and good.

A wolf (communism) in sheep's clothing (social justice).

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/wolf-in-sheeps-clothing1.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyGND49CBYk

Salento
28-05-18, 15:24
Video


:smile:
Debating is healthy. Attacking is not.
Not about you Exceededminimumso, you’re COOL :cool-v: [emoji41]



https://youtu.be/M_wLPcH1_WA

ps @Exceededminimumso you must do something about your name, is way too long. lol

gyms
28-05-18, 20:11
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/28/europe/italy-election-crisis-mattarella-intl/index.html

He said Conte's candidate, Paolo Savona, was unacceptable because the appointment would alarm investors and have dangerous consequences for Italy's outstanding government debt.

Viva la Democrazia!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQGvfp3DSb8

Ailchu
28-05-18, 20:33
Giuseppe Conte, Italian prime minister-designate, has resigned the mandate. Because the President of the Republic Sergio Mattarella has not accepted the name proposed as Minister of Economy for his anti-EURO feelings. It is in the constitutional rights of the President of the Republic to act like this, and tomorrow he will try to appoint as Prime Minister-designate the economist Carlo Cottarelli. But apparently Cottarelli does not have a majority of consensus in the Parliament. So either something happens or we will be back to elections soon.

you should better change your whole political system too. how is one guy alone able to destroy everything just because someone is not following the same political line?

also nice story from france that is now in every newspaper:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/spiderman-france-rescue-paris-mali-hero-toddler-mamoudou-gassam-emmanuel-macron-video-a8372456.html

that's how easy it is to become french. macron is even a bigger clown than trump.
and if you're a legionnary you still have to serve france 3 years until you get your citizenship.

edit: if you look closer you actually see that the guy on the balcony saved the child. he already grabed the leg of the child and wanted to pull him up but then other guy arrived.

Sile
28-05-18, 20:37
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/28/europe/italy-election-crisis-mattarella-intl/index.html
He said Conte's candidate, Paolo Savona, was unacceptable because the appointment would alarm investors and have dangerous consequences for Italy's outstanding government debt.
Viva la Democrazia!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQGvfp3DSb8
.
Again #3......the Italian peoples vote counts for nothing ...........a new technocrat government formed by the president ........another "Monte" mayhem , ruled by Brussels.
.
EU is not democratic ...............watch what will happen to the UK and Brexit.
.
Also the irish where forced to go to the vote year after year until they joined the EU......remember this scenario
.
EU......Paris and Berlin from Brussels ...............the rest are "sub-capitals"

exceededminimumso..
28-05-18, 20:55
You can't even eat non-bent bananas without politically correct EUpire jumping down you throat

exceededminimumso..
28-05-18, 20:58
Wait, EUpire forced Ireland to vote whatever they want to join EUpire? The nerve of them

Ailchu
28-05-18, 22:22
Wait, EUpire forced Ireland to vote whatever they want to join EUpire? The nerve of them
if you make the right promises you can make people vote for quite a lot of things. that goes for votes for joining but also leaving the eu.

Pax Augusta
28-05-18, 23:32
Even if Italy goes to the polls again , the same scenario can happen in regards to the economy minister

Most likely.

Angela
28-05-18, 23:36
It's just trying to negate the popular vote. Even if I think Italians were beyond stupid to vote this way, it shouldn't be negated.

Just more rule by the EU if they just appoint a technocrat, and who says the voters will come to their senses in the meantime?

What a mess.

Not that I have a workable solution. Nobody would vote for the package I'd propose, not even the so-called "right wing" parties. Too much socialism has weakened the brain of even them.

Angela
29-05-18, 00:49
Needless to say, violence isn't a solution, so everyone just needs to calm down.

Salento
29-05-18, 20:58
Links to mainstream :) Italian News:

ANSA (In English)
https://www.ansa.it/english/

ANSA (in Italian)
http://www.ansa.it

TGCom24 (in Italian)
http://www.tgcom24.mediaset.it

RAI News 24 (Live TV in Italian)
http://www.rainews.it/dl/rainews/live/ContentItem-3156f2f2-dc70-4953-8e2f-70d7489d4ce9.html

Sile
30-05-18, 07:35
Most likely.

Italians are now known as the Serfs of Brussels.
.
Reminds me of a child (Italy ) asking for pocketmoney from his parents ( Germany and France) .......parents state to child
:...but you are too young to look after a lot of money, he is some change.

hrvclv
30-05-18, 10:17
Most European countries had a hard time achieving long-desired democracy. The French had to behead a king. Germany and Italy only emerged as united, homogeneous countries in the late 19C. East-Europeans had to wait until recently to see the Iron Curtain fall and to get rid of communist dictatorship.

Then all those newly-hatched democracies got together and established a new technocratic... dictatorship. A Commission which is NOT even ELECTED decides on eveything important in the EU. You just can't kick them out, as you'd do with a president or PM.

Millions of would-be immigrants are waiting at the gates, or forcing their way in. We have no army to speak of, even less so since the Brits opted out - which deprives us of any form of influence in foreign affairs. Tax rate harmonization is at best a remote dream. The Central Bank inflicts its own diktats on convalescent economies. Etc...

In the meantime, the European Parliament (the one elected political body) passes bills to decide - guess what - how thick the tiles should be on the walls of a butcher's laboratory! (Not kidding!)

No wonder people are getting exasperated. Nationalist parties are gaining ground in Italy, but also in France, Austria, Poland, the Netherlands, even Germany in spite of the long-lasting post-war trauma. Britain opted out. You'd think it would set decision-makers thinking, in Brussels. It does not. They just keep on as before, quagmired in their own certainties and political correctness.

The end is near, my friends. Europe was a fantastic dream. We all believed and hoped. Then the technocrats laid their power-grabbing hands on it, and they'd rather see it dead than alter their options. The only way to salvage the EU would be to re-write its constitution, and to let the peoples have their say in public matters. Our so-called "élites" are not prepared to consent to that. Disaster is round the bend...

Pax Augusta
30-05-18, 14:30
Italians are now known as the Serfs of Brussels.

Reminds me of a child (Italy ) asking for pocketmoney from his parents ( Germany and France) .......parents state to child
:...but you are too young to look after a lot of money, he is some change.


You live too far from Europe to fully understand what it is really happening in Europe and in Italy.

Salento
30-05-18, 16:07
@Pax A. - Come on Man. I Felt that, and it hurts a little. (.. che frustata! ..)
I understand that you disagree with Sile comment. I don’t agree either.
By your logic:
@Salento @Sile @Angela @Jovialis and others are just this:
http://i.imgur.com/X4glnO9.jpg
Should we put in a muzzle and shut up?

Angela
30-05-18, 16:27
@Pax - Come on Man. I Felt that, and it hurts a little.
I understand that you disagree with Sile comment. I don’t agree either.
By your logic:
@Salento @Sile @Angela @Jovialis and others are just this:
http://i.imgur.com/X4glnO9.jpg
Should we put in a muzzle and shut up?

Sile has proudly opined that he isn't Italian, doesn't speak Italian, doesn't want to be Italian, doesn't want to learn Italian, that the Veneto is not really Italy and the separatist movement is a good thing. Unsurprisingly, he's a Lega Nord supporter.

From what I can tell he has spent his entire life in Australia.

So...

I was born there, lived there as a child, was partly educated there, and have never cut my ties. You were born there, lived there at least through your young manhood. We're also proud to be Italian and care deeply about what happens to Italy, unless I'm reading you incorrectly. We see all these things as happening to us, in some measure, not to THEM. I think we have some standing to venture an opinion, although my relatives do say that since I don't live there full time and don't pay taxes there I should shut up, and they have a point, so I try to be circumspect.

I don't see Jovialis putting his oar in the water like Sile on these kinds of subjects.

I found Sile's post offensive, as I find most of his posts about Italy both uninformed and offensive. If Pax ever finds me making such comments he has every right to call me out for them.

Salento
30-05-18, 16:35
That’s not point. I said that I disagree with Sile too.
It’s about the living too far, and the Understanding comment.
On his Profile Sile wrote Australian and Italian.

bicicleur
30-05-18, 16:43
Sile has proudly opined that he isn't Italian, doesn't speak Italian, doesn't want to be Italian, doesn't want to learn Italian, that the Veneto is not really Italy and the separatist movement is a good thing. Unsurprisingly, he's a Lega Nord supporter.
From what I can tell he has spent his entire life in Australia.
So...
I was born there, lived there as a child, was partly educated there, and have never cut my ties. You were born there, lived there at least through your young manhood. We're also proud to be Italian and care deeply about what happens to Italy, unless I'm reading you incorrectly. We see all these things as happening to us, in some measure, not to THEM. I think we have some standing to venture an opinion, although my relatives do say that since I don't live there full time and don't pay taxes there I should shut up, and they have a point, so I try to be circumspect.
I don't see Jovialis putting his oar in the water like Sile on these kinds of subjects.
I found Sile's post offensive, as I find most of his posts about Italy both uninformed and offensive. If Pax ever finds me making such comments he has every right to call me out for them.
If you love Italy, you should be worried about how things evolve there.
And it starts with those Italians saying outsiders should shut up.

It's all popular politicians talk, blaiming Europe for the necessary reforms they failed to do themselves.
The last 5 years, Italy was the weakest economic performer in Europe.
Erdogan goes a step further, the free fall of the Turkish lira is 'a complot of the foreigners'.
Do you want that kind of rhetoric?

Angela
30-05-18, 16:43
That’s not point. I said that I disagree with Sile too.
It’s about the living too far, and the Understanding comment.

It's not solely a question of disagreeing with his comment or finding it offensive for me: it's to Pax' point about whether he has the "experience" to really understand what is going on there. Look, any Tom, Dick or Harry is free to express an opinion and does. That's what all these foreigners do all the time. The question is how much weight should be given to the opinions of certain people. There's a hierarchy.

If you and I have lived here for a substantial amount of time, with only visits back, then yes, we don't understand completely what's going on, all the nuances, as well as do the people who are living there.

That's why I don't vote in the elections, although I could.

If you feel differently, great. I'm fine with that. I just disagree.

Salento
30-05-18, 16:56
It's not solely a question of disagreeing with his comment or finding it offensive for me: it's to Pax' point about whether he has the "experience" to really understand what is going on there. Look, any Tom, Dick or Harry is free to express an opinion and does. That's what all these foreigners do all the time. The question is how much weight should be given to the opinions of certain people. There's a hierarchy.

If you and I have lived here for a substantial amount of time, with only visits back, then yes, we don't understand completely what's going on, all the nuances, as well as do the people who are living there.

That's why I don't vote in the elections, although I could.

If you feel differently, great. I'm fine with that. I just disagree.

I understand.
Now think of all the comments posted by foreigners and non US Citizens about the 2016 US Elections.
Anyway :)

Angela
30-05-18, 16:58
If you love Italy, you should be worried about how things evolve there.
And it starts with those Italians saying outsiders should shut up.

It's all popular politicians talk, blaiming Europe for the necessary reforms they failed to do.
The last 5 years, Italy was the weakest economic performer in Europe.
Erdogan goes a step further, the free fall of the Turkish lira is 'a complot of the foreigners'.
Do you want that kind of rhetoric?

Of course I'm worried about what happens there. Also, if you think I would have voted for either of those two parties you're much mistaken.

As I said above:


Every country should and does put its own country first whatever they may say publicly. Italy should have gotten out of the Eurozone ages ago. It's in its best interest. They should start negotiating for it NOW.

That doesn't mean I think this government has a prayer of making things better. Too much fuzzy left wing thinking and not enough capitalist thinking.

"Green" regulation run amok is a stupid idea. So is undoing the retirement reforms. I understand that when you have such high unemployment among young people getting people out of the workforce isn't a bad idea, but this isn't the way to put more young people to work.

They need to institute more market reforms, not fewer ones.

It's just a muddle because you're yoking together left and right whose only common denominator seems to be anti-immigration and hatred of the status quo.

As for anti-corruption the League has already been proven to be corrupt.


I've said over and over again that Italian political and economic thinking is too socialistic, not capitalistic enough, imo.

However, that doesn't mean I'm any cheerleader for the EU. I never have been. Going on the Euro has been a disaster for Italy. If it had its own currency, which would fall to its rightful level, its goods would be cheaper and its balance of trade better.

Plus, I think the whole EU set up is anti-democratic. I endorse every word that hrvclv said upthread. This coming technocrat government is going to be the equivalent of a foreign administered take over of popularly elected officials, even if I think their platforms are a mess. You either believe in democracy or you don't.

What I find objectionable is how foreigners who understand nothing of the challenges Italy faces and always has faced given its particular history and natural resources feel free to make condescending and uninformed comments.

bicicleur
30-05-18, 17:32
Of course I'm worried about what happens there. Also, if you think I would have voted for either of those two parties you're much mistaken.

As I said above:



I've said over and over again that Italian political and economic thinking is too socialistic, not capitalistic enough, imo.

However, that doesn't mean I'm any cheerleader for the EU. I never have been. Going on the Euro has been a disaster for Italy. If it had its own currency, which would fall to its rightful level, its goods would be cheaper and its balance of trade better.

Plus, I think the whole EU set up is anti-democratic. I endorse every word that hrvclv said upthread. This coming technocrat government is going to be the equivalent of a foreign administered take over of popularly elected officials, even if I think their platforms are a mess. You either believe in democracy or you don't.

What I find objectionable is how foreigners who understand nothing of the challenges Italy faces and always has faced given its particular history and natural resources feel free to make condescending and uninformed comments.

I admit Angela, I know very little about Italian politics, and I don't want to comment to much.
But as an outsider, when I see how figures like Berlusconi or Beppe Grillo can dominate Italian politics for decades, I don't have an impression that Italians cast their votes wisely.
And it is sad to see a country with such potential perform so poor lately.

Belgium with its complicated legal constructions may be a strange spectacle for outsiders too, it even is for Belgians.

Pax Augusta
30-05-18, 17:44
@Pax A. - Come on Man. I Felt that, and it hurts a little. (.. che frustata! ..)
I understand that you disagree with Sile comment. I don’t agree either.
By your logic:
@Salento @Sile @Angela @Jovialis and others are just this:

Should we put in a muzzle and shut up?


That Sile lives far from Italy and Europe is a fact, is not even an opinion. The political position of Sile is known, however. Separatist and Venetian nationalist with typical anti-Italian, anti-Rome and anti-Brussels sentiments. To me his political position does not create any problem, I live in Italy, I know many Venetians, I have even friends who are separatist.



If you love Italy, you should be worried about how things evolve there. And it starts with those Italians saying outsiders should shut up.


Kindly, could you show me where Italians in this forum are saying outsiders should shut up?

Who knows Angela, knows very well that she is worried about what is happening in Italy, does not doubt that even for a moment she's not worried.

What is happening in Italy is not only linked to anti-EU propaganda, it is something different that has much deeper roots. And it dates back over 25 years ago, when the traditional party system was involved in the scandal called Tangentopoli.


I've said over and over again that Italian political and economic thinking is too socialistic, not capitalistic enough, imo.

Exactly. Both the extreme left and the right parties in Italy profoundly despise capitalism. But it is a common feeling even in the most moderate parties. I'm not watching this thing with my eyes filtered by my political vision. It's a fact.

Clearly when you have a huge public debt, scattered between government bonds and other, and still dependent on moods of global finance, you understand that these anti-capitalist feelings do not really allow you to fully understand certain dynamics.

The majority of Italians do not even know that leaving the Euro and the EU as well as being a lengthy process is a process that has a very high price for Italian public finances, it has a huge cost. Many think that it is enough to send a letter to Brussels, print the old Italian lira to to go back to a weak currency and to devalue. And it is done.

But it is also quite evident that EU does not do the interests of all member countries in the same way. The strong anti-EU sentiments are also the result of the many wrong things in the EU.

Salento
30-05-18, 18:04
A funny, but true comment to lighten up a little the thread.
Usually young Italian Soldiers and an Officer of the Carabinieri provide security to Polling Stations. In most cases are Schools.
Sometimes they are stationed for 2-3 days and nights in this Schools.
Some are located is God forgotten places.
In this case, It’s not unusual at all that most of the left over food in the Fridge of the teachers lounge, and the coffee too, miraculously disappears by the time they leave.
Just saying it. LoL

Jovialis
30-05-18, 19:50
I'm passionate about Italy, the Italian people, history and culture. I want Italy to always be a successful country; it's an intrinsic part of my identity.

Nevertheless, I don’t comment on the contemporary political climate there; I don’t know much about it. I don’t live there, so my opinion wouldn’t reflect the experience of an Italian citizen.

Salento
30-05-18, 20:00
IMO Organized Chaos is the way Italy operates. In Politics, Bureaucracy, Business, Airports, ...
The initial Drama is always followed by an Ok conclusion.
A casual, or unprofessional approach at first, followed by an argument, and a reasonable Solution.

Sile
30-05-18, 20:13
Sile has proudly opined that he isn't Italian, doesn't speak Italian, doesn't want to be Italian, doesn't want to learn Italian, that the Veneto is not really Italy and the separatist movement is a good thing. Unsurprisingly, he's a Lega Nord supporter.
From what I can tell he has spent his entire life in Australia.
So...
I was born there, lived there as a child, was partly educated there, and have never cut my ties. You were born there, lived there at least through your young manhood. We're also proud to be Italian and care deeply about what happens to Italy, unless I'm reading you incorrectly. We see all these things as happening to us, in some measure, not to THEM. I think we have some standing to venture an opinion, although my relatives do say that since I don't live there full time and don't pay taxes there I should shut up, and they have a point, so I try to be circumspect.
I don't see Jovialis putting his oar in the water like Sile on these kinds of subjects.
I found Sile's post offensive, as I find most of his posts about Italy both uninformed and offensive. If Pax ever finds me making such comments he has every right to call me out for them.
I find it offensive on how you wrongly branded me........your assumptions are branded as bullying in Australia.
You assume far too much which leads to your high percentage of errors in regards to me and others here.
On your erred comments .........
I vote there so I must be .
My parents spoke both Veneto and italian and taught me Veneto......can I understand Italian, yes....
I only support a decentralised form government and will never support a centralised one.........if you assume that means not to be part of Italy, then that's your wrong theory.
I state what the italian constituation states in regards to what, who and when people of the italian peninsula became Italians .............you should read it ..........I do not follow nationalistic propaganda.
.
On the EU...........I read the economists papers a long time ago, before it began and their advice still stands today.............remove nations if you want the EU to succeed.
.
The question on Italy today is a question of what does the italian vote counts for, the question of Democracy for the people..........and not what is dictated to them from politicians who have been running the country basically since they where born.

Salento
30-05-18, 20:53
I'm passionate about Italy, the Italian people, history and culture. I want Italy to always be a successful country; it's an intrinsic part of my identity.

Nevertheless, I don’t comment on the contemporary political climate there; I don’t know much about it. I don’t live there, so my opinion wouldn’t reflect the experience of an Italian citizen.

We need less involved voices like yours.
We are too close, and sometimes We can't see the forest for the trees.
From a distance You can have more objective thoughts than me, for example. :)

Pax Augusta
30-05-18, 22:02
The question on Italy today is a question of what does the italian vote counts for, the question of Democracy for the people..........and not what is dictated to them from politicians who have been running the country basically since they where born.

Paolo Savona, the economist rejected as Economy Minister by Italy's President Sergio Mattarella, is 82 years old and has been already Minister of an Italian government 25 years ago. Paolo Savona is part of those generations who have led this country for the last 70 years, he is not a 20 year old boy popped out of nowhere.

However, in the last hours there have been some news. First of all Carlo Cottarelli, Italy's prime minister-designate, is still working on the formation of his government, and has not presented his Ministers' list in Parliament yet.

The leader of Five Star Movement a few hours ago, Luigi Di Maio, said he will assign the role of minister of the economy to another one, moving Paolo Savona to a different ministry, thus accepting the veto of the President of Italy and trying to convince Mattarella again to assign the role of prime minister-designate to Giuseppe Conte. According to Italian press, Mattarella is seriously considering Di Maio's proposal.

At this point it is Matteo Salvini, Lega Nord's leader, who shows reticence and does not seem now interested in forming a government because the polls see his party growing and therefore would like to go to new elections as soon as possible.

Yetos
30-05-18, 23:17
there is more
they promote an 'Italia first' policy
it involves making more debts and breaking EU austerity rules
we've seen where that has lead to in Greece


It is more simple,

just look at late Greek prime minister before elections and after
and the fuzzy question of the stupid referendum.

AFTER BREXIT,
AND EUROSCEPTICISM GROWN RAPIDLY IN GREECE
THEY WOULD NOT PUT A EUROSCEPTIC IN HEAD OF ITALY,
(unless he gaves a quarranty for current status)

THEY WOULD NOT GABLE

Sile
31-05-18, 08:32
Paolo Savona, the economist rejected as Economy Minister by Italy's President Sergio Mattarella, is 82 years old and has been already Minister of an Italian government 25 years ago. Paolo Savona is part of those generations who have led this country for the last 70 years, he is not a 20 year old boy popped out of nowhere.
However, in the last hours there have been some news. First of all Carlo Cottarelli, Italy's prime minister-designate, is still working on the formation of his government, and has not presented his Ministers' list in Parliament yet.
The leader of Five Star Movement a few hours ago, Luigi Di Maio, said he will assign the role of minister of the economy to another one, moving Paolo Savona to a different ministry, thus accepting the veto of the President of Italy and trying to convince Mattarella again to assign the role of prime minister-designate to Giuseppe Conte. According to Italian press, Mattarella is seriously considering Di Maio's proposal.
At this point it is Matteo Salvini, Lega Nord's leader, who shows reticence and does not seem now interested in forming a government because the polls see his party growing and therefore would like to go to new elections as soon as possible.
You still do not understand what is at stake
https://www.thelocal.it/20180529/markets-will-teach-italy-to-vote-for-the-right-thing-gunther-oettinger-italy
'Markets will teach Italy to vote for the right thing': EU official's comment causes uproar.
.
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/italy-renews-attempt-to-form-government
.
more time by the president or trying to save face
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/30/head-of-italys-m5s-rekindles-negotiations-to-form-a-government

Pax Augusta
31-05-18, 13:57
You still do not understand what is at stake
https://www.thelocal.it/20180529/markets-will-teach-italy-to-vote-for-the-right-thing-gunther-oettinger-italy
'Markets will teach Italy to vote for the right thing': EU official's comment causes uproar.
.
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/italy-renews-attempt-to-form-government
.
more time by the president or trying to save face
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/30/head-of-italys-m5s-rekindles-negotiations-to-form-a-government

First of all, the situation is still open, there is still room for a Conte government to be launched with Lega Nord and Five Star Movement as main government parties.

Sile, you don't understand that what you're trying to show me as revealing it's a topic of discussion everywhere in Italy, even in bars. You're not telling me anything new. Mattarella is the only one who does not have to save face, President Mattarella exercised his constitutional powers. I suggest you read the Italian constitution, in particular article 92.

Mattarella was a university professor of Law, Parliamentary Law, in his life, and one of the members of the Italian Constitutional Court. I have the feeling that Mattarella knows the Italian constitution very well. Unlike many Italians.

The face and the statements of German EU commissioner Gunther Oettinger have been everywhere in Italy for two days, TV, printed paper, comments on Facebook.

And, moreover, the Italian media reported these days some interesting details on the life of this EU Commissioner. Like when he was involved in a recent scandal in Germany (January 2018) because Oettinger, who is a German CDU politician, has been for a long time the usual customer of a pizzeria in Germany owned by the Ndrangheta, and was advised by members of the German government that the restaurant was under environmental interection. The name of Oettinger is in an Italian book of 12 years ago written by an Italian prosecutor in 2006, in which an exponent of the Nndrangheta in Germany says to support his political activities in Baden Wurttemberg. There's something to do with his recent declarations on Italy. Maybe not. We will understand it later.

EU-Kommissar Oettinger (CDU) und Mafia-Mitglied in Kontakt?

https://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/festnahme-des-mafia-verdaechtigen-mario-l-eu-kommissar-oettinger-cdu-und-mafia-mitglied-noch-in-kontakt_id_8279631.html

Pax Augusta
31-05-18, 19:45
Paolo Cottarelli is no longer the Italian Prime Minister-designate.

Soon it is possible that Giuseppe Conte will be appointed again as Prime Minister-designate, to form a government with Lega Nord and Five Star Movement as majority parties.

EDIT

Conte has been summoned tonight at 9 pm, Italian time, by the Presidency of the Italian Republic. Likely to receive the assignment again.

Sile
31-05-18, 20:41
Paolo Cottarelli is no longer the Italian Prime Minister-designate.

Soon it is possible that Giuseppe Conte will be appointed again as Prime Minister-designate, to form a government with Lega Nord and Five Star Movement as majority parties.

EDIT

Conte has been summoned tonight at 9 pm, Italian time, by the Presidency of the Italian Republic. Likely to receive the assignment again.

the term Lega nord has ceased to exist ...the term is now Lega ...........the last of Bossi socialist "Lieutenants" who was involved early on ...Maroni was replaced as the president of Lombardy 2 months ago by a lega person
Bossi and his socialist buddies united these parties
Liga Veneta, Lega Lombarda, Piemont Autonomista, Uniun Ligure, Lega Emiliano-Romagnola and Alleanza Toscana to form Lega Nord in 1991. These parties still run seperatly inside the new Lega.
.
.
.

Sile
31-05-18, 20:44
First of all, the situation is still open, there is still room for a Conte government to be launched with Lega Nord and Five Star Movement as main government parties.
Sile, you don't understand that what you're trying to show me as revealing it's a topic of discussion everywhere in Italy, even in bars. You're not telling me anything new. Mattarella is the only one who does not have to save face, President Mattarella exercised his constitutional powers. I suggest you read the Italian constitution, in particular article 92.
Mattarella was a university professor of Law, Parliamentary Law, in his life, and one of the members of the Italian Constitutional Court. I have the feeling that Mattarella knows the Italian constitution very well. Unlike many Italians.
The face and the statements of German EU commissioner Gunther Oettinger have been everywhere in Italy for two days, TV, printed paper, comments on Facebook.
And, moreover, the Italian media reported these days some interesting details on the life of this EU Commissioner. Like when he was involved in a recent scandal in Germany (January 2018) because Oettinger, who is a German CDU politician, has been for a long time the usual customer of a pizzeria in Germany owned by the Ndrangheta, and was advised by members of the German government that the restaurant was under environmental interection. The name of Oettinger is in an Italian book of 12 years ago written by an Italian prosecutor in 2006, in which an exponent of the Nndrangheta in Germany says to support his political activities in Baden Wurttemberg. There's something to do with his recent declarations on Italy. Maybe not. We will understand it later.
EU-Kommissar Oettinger (CDU) und Mafia-Mitglied in Kontakt?

https://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/festnahme-des-mafia-verdaechtigen-mario-l-eu-kommissar-oettinger-cdu-und-mafia-mitglied-noch-in-kontakt_id_8279631.html
Maybe it will work...but I think Salvini wants to go to July elections ...........we will see.
.
I am trying to show you that regardless on who wins the election or who governs Italy, what is at stake is the value of the Italian vote by the populace ......this should never be undermined or else you end up with the same evil 3 types of government, socialim/communism, fascism and monarchy.......these are all centralised forms of governments

Ailchu
31-05-18, 22:58
how is the italian press writing about the lega and five stars? here, there is no sentence with those names that doesn't also include populism and xenophobia.

Salento
31-05-18, 23:12
how is the italian press writing about the lega and five stars? here, there is no sentence with those names that doesn't also include populism and xenophobia.
You can pick and choose media outlets in Italy too, tailored to your views.


Links to mainstream Italian News:

ANSA (In English)
https://www.ansa.it/english/

ANSA (in Italian)
http://www.ansa.it

TGCom24 (in Italian)
http://www.tgcom24.mediaset.it

RAI News 24 (Live TV in Italian)
http://www.rainews.it/dl/rainews/live/ContentItem-3156f2f2-dc70-4953-8e2f-70d7489d4ce9.html

gyms
01-06-18, 11:50
ROME — After 88 days of impasses and negotiations, two Italian populist parties with a history of antagonism toward the European Union received approval Thursday night to create a government that has already unsettled the Continent’s political order.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/31/world/europe/italy-government-populists.html

bicicleur
01-06-18, 12:42
it looks like a new government will be formed after all
they have 2 options :
either swallow more than half of the promesses they made
or lead Italy into empoverishment and financial default

Pax Augusta
01-06-18, 13:09
Maybe it will work...but I think Salvini wants to go to July elections ...........we will see.
.
I am trying to show you that regardless on who wins the election or who governs Italy, what is at stake is the value of the Italian vote by the populace ......this should never be undermined or else you end up with the same evil 3 types of government, socialim/communism, fascism and monarchy.......these are all centralised forms of governments

You haven't ever read the Italian Constitution. What the president of the Republic has done is guaranteed by his role and by his constitutional rights. It has already happened other times in the past that a President of the Italian Republic vetoed a minister candidate.

In fact, at the end the two parties have accepted Mattarella's decision. Di Maio and Salvini should have accepted it a few days ago. So they could have saved us all a lot of aggravation.



The text of the Italian constitution's article 92:



«Il Governo della Repubblica è composto del Presidente del Consiglio e dei Ministri, che costituiscono insieme il Consiglio dei Ministri.

Il Presidente della Repubblica nomina il Presidente del Consiglio dei Ministri e, su proposta di questo, i Ministri».

Sile
01-06-18, 22:02
News reports I saw 12 hours ago states that Conte was re-instated as Prime minister of Italy .................Mattarella has done some "reverse diplomacy".
He states, you can have Paolo Savona as a minister, but not a finance minister.

Angela
02-06-18, 03:44
The most important thing to me is who winds up in charge of economic matters, the currency etc. I would have preferred the first choice: I agree that the EU has been a cage for Italy, one that benefits only Germany and France. At least the new man doesn't seem to have totally drunk the kool-aid.

I just hope they don't back pedal on the flat tax proposal, or at least stick with deep tax cuts. I also hope they don't roll back the reforms already passed.

As for immigration, it has to be brought under control.

As I said before, every country should and does, no matter what they say, put their own country first. It's about time.

bicicleur
03-06-18, 09:51
Merkel has already warned that Europe won't guarantee Italian debt if Italy don't put his finance in order.
Where is the time my Italian customer payed me with 1.000.000 lire notes..

130 % of GNP debt, and earlier retirement with higher pensions are coming.
It's a miracle, I think we should all follow the Italian model.

Italy has voted for Santa.
But they'll soon find out he came with an empty bag.

Yetos
03-06-18, 16:54
the term Lega nord has ceased to exist ...the term is now Lega ...........the last of Bossi socialist "Lieutenants" who was involved early on ...Maroni was replaced as the president of Lombardy 2 months ago by a lega person
Bossi and his socialist buddies united these parties
Liga Veneta, Lega Lombarda, Piemont Autonomista, Uniun Ligure, Lega Emiliano-Romagnola and Alleanza Toscana to form Lega Nord in 1991. These parties still run seperatly inside the new Lega.

in other countries or eras such party names would be consider as traitors, terrorists, etc,

.
.
.




in other countries or eras such party names would be consider as traitors, terrorists, etc,

Salento
03-06-18, 21:58
in other countries or eras such party names would be consider as traitors, terrorists, etc,

It’s not unusual that controversial movements or groups that operate at the edge or outside of the boundaries of the Status Quo, can later evolve into a political resistance movement.
As an example the “Briganti” of South Italy would morph from outlaws to armed resistance against Foreign and Domestic new ruling entities.
In the South of Italy, the word Brigante is not limited to an Outlaw, but is also used for rebels fighting for a cause.

Briganti Si Muore
In Neapolitan- English and Italian subtitle

https://youtu.be/ubIGp0BTikw


Cicero: ‘To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child.’

Yetos
07-06-18, 23:17
is it true?

https://i2.prth.gr/files/2014/04/03/venetia4.jpg


https://i2.prth.gr/files/2014/04/03/venetia5.jpg



It seems the virus of small indepented states in EU is growing,

Divide and conquer politic from 'above'
or separate is better?

Anyway seems like Italy is also infected,
in fact very much..

ok for joke,
did The Arab spring winds, pass the meditterennean and reach Spain and Italy?
or the virus came from UK?

Pax Augusta
08-06-18, 01:38
is it true?

Yes, but it's 4 years old

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/02/italy-arrest-veneto-separatists-plot-tank




Anyway seems like Italy is also infected,
in fact very much..

Italy is a very complicated country to understand, and separatism was perhaps stronger in the past than today.

Boreas
08-06-18, 11:52
Does All North Italy want to be separated or each province in North, want to be separated individual. Like Lombardia, Veneto etc.

If both perspectives have supporters, which is the strong one?

Salento
08-06-18, 14:02
Does All North Italy want to be separated or each province in North, want to be separated individual. Like Lombardia, Veneto etc.

If both perspectives have supporters, which is the strong one?
There are separatist movements in Sicily and Sardinia too.
Mostly are Regions, beside the province of Bolzano, and a few more.

There was a “Non Binding” referendum asking for more autonomy in Veneto and Lombardia last year:

“ ... More than 90% of voters in Lombardy, ..... , and Veneto .., voted yes in the non-binding referendum, their presidents claimed. ...”

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41712263

But they can NOT Separate from Italy because of Article 5 of the Constitution:

“The Republic, one and indivisible, recognises and promotes local autonomies, and implements the fullest measure of administrative decentralisation in those services which depend on the State.
The Republic accords the principles and methods of its legislation to the requirements of autonomy and decentralisation.”

Nobody talk about the Italian Army, but they should.
After all, imo they are bound to keep Italy together.
A Show of Force (ROMA - Fori Imperiali):


https://youtu.be/ulr3H4qciDw

Yetos
08-06-18, 18:52
That is what I do not yet understand in EU.
in one hand we speak about Fiscal Union,
same central bank, common laws,
Unification of Europe
and on the other hand we see separatists, autonomists, growing inside EU.

strange but the case of Catalania, after inner Spain desicion is also EU desicion,
too many movements Salento, and still fogy place the EU plans for such,


BTW
Salento sorry me
But I thought Italians did not made walking parades, but rather running.

Salento
08-06-18, 18:57
BTW
Salento sorry me
But I thought Italians did not made walking parades, but rather running.
LoL. Of course they do normal speed Parades.
You are thinking about the Bersaglieri.
180 steps in 1 minute.
Bersaglieri + Frecce Tricolori.


https://youtu.be/6ABLOJV9Uw8

Boreas
08-06-18, 23:23
There are separatist movements in Sicily and Sardinia too.


What is the idea behind that? In many case, just rich regions want to be independence. I guess it is a reaction for North.

Salento
09-06-18, 00:13
What is the idea behind that? In many case, just rich regions want to be independence. I guess it is a reaction for North.

No It’s not a reaction at all to the North Independence Movements.
Sicilians and Sardinians are better prepared to answer in details. Just to be fair to them.

All I’m going to say is that this independence movements have been around for many Decades, in Sicily for over 100 Years.

Sile
09-06-18, 02:04
What is the idea behind that? In many case, just rich regions want to be independence. I guess it is a reaction for North.
most italian regions seek independence or automany .............thats because they hate the centralised Italian government system..........its a continuation of fascism and the monarchy system ( up to 1946 ) to a degree.
non-centralised governments are more prosperous....USA, Australia, Germany to name a few
.
.
below are the regions that already have autonomy ............the others all miss out
The Autonomous regions of Italy — with special establishment statutes.
Aosta Valley‎ (15 C, 11 P)
Friuli-Venezia Giulia‎ (14 C, 10 P)
Sardinia‎ (20 C, 22 P)
Sicily‎ (21 C, 21 P)
Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol‎ (12 C, 5 P)
.
.
http://italyexplained.com/five-autonomous-regions-italy/

.
.
2 other regions are seeking autonomy
In the non-binding referendums on Sunday (22 October 2017), voters in the northern regions of Lombardy and Veneto demanded more powers from the central government.
Neither region is seeking to break away from Italy, but are instead asking for a greater say in the distribution of tax

Salento
09-06-18, 07:58
most italian regions seek independence or automany .............thats because they hate the centralised Italian government system..........its a continuation of fascism and the monarchy system ( up to 1946 ) to a degree.
non-centralised governments are more prosperous....USA, Australia, Germany to name a few
below are the regions that already have autonomy ............the others all miss out
The Autonomous regions of Italy — with special establishment statutes.
Aosta Valley‎ (15 C, 11 P)
Friuli-Venezia Giulia‎ (14 C, 10 P)
Sardinia‎ (20 C, 22 P)
Sicily‎ (21 C, 21 P)
Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol‎ (12 C, 5 P)
http://italyexplained.com/five-autonomous-regions-italy/
2 other regions are seeking autonomy
In the non-binding referendums on Sunday (22 October 2017), voters in the northern regions of Lombardy and Veneto demanded more powers from the central government.
Neither region is seeking to break away from Italy, but are instead asking for a greater say in the distribution of tax

I Remember that:
Valle D’Aosta
Friuli-Venezia Giulia‎
Sardinia‎
Sicily‎
Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol‎
Have all been Granted “Statuto Speciale” mainly for geographical reasons.
Logistic disadvantages for Islands, tall Mountains places, foreign borders, and relocation of populations.
Some Linguistic reason in Bolzano too.

Lombardia and Veneto resent the less prosperous Regions, IMO.

LABERIA
09-06-18, 08:13
the term Lega nord has ceased to exist ...the term is now Lega ...........the last of Bossi socialist "Lieutenants" who was involved early on ...Maroni was replaced as the president of Lombardy 2 months ago by a lega person
Bossi and his socialist buddies united these parties
Liga Veneta, Lega Lombarda, Piemont Autonomista, Uniun Ligure, Lega Emiliano-Romagnola and Alleanza Toscana to form Lega Nord in 1991. These parties still run seperatly inside the new Lega.
.
.
.

Things have changed. It's no more Roma ladrona.

LABERIA
09-06-18, 09:46
Does All North Italy want to be separated or each province in North, want to be separated individual. Like Lombardia, Veneto etc.
If both perspectives have supporters, which is the strong one?
Italy has been a unitary country for almost a century and a half. On the other hand, Italy has a tradition of almost a millennium of city-states, small kingdoms, duchies, etc. But in Italy there is no problem of Spanish-style secessionism. There has always been this discourse of fiscal federalism, etc. But in this historical phase, Italy is entering as a united country. You must not get confused about certain wrong stereotypes.

bicicleur
09-06-18, 10:26
Italy has been a unitary country for almost a century and a half. On the other hand, Italy has a tradition of almost a millennium of city-states, small kingdoms, duchies, etc. But in Italy there is no problem of Spanish-style secessionism. There has always been this discourse of fiscal federalism, etc. But in this historical phase, Italy is entering as a united country. You must not get confused about certain wrong stereotypes.

this is not the populism to be worried about

the populism is to blaim the Euro for what goes wrong in Italy
Italy is the poorest performer of Europe lately
and it is because of lack of necessary reforms inside Italy

the Mafia and corruption are some internal problems to be tackled

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Italy

LABERIA
09-06-18, 10:52
Most European countries had a hard time achieving long-desired democracy. The French had to behead a king. Germany and Italy only emerged as united, homogeneous countries in the late 19C. East-Europeans had to wait until recently to see the Iron Curtain fall and to get rid of communist dictatorship.
Then all those newly-hatched democracies got together and established a new technocratic... dictatorship. A Commission which is NOT even ELECTED decides on eveything important in the EU. You just can't kick them out, as you'd do with a president or PM.
Millions of would-be immigrants are waiting at the gates, or forcing their way in. We have no army to speak of, even less so since the Brits opted out - which deprives us of any form of influence in foreign affairs. Tax rate harmonization is at best a remote dream. The Central Bank inflicts its own diktats on convalescent economies. Etc...
In the meantime, the European Parliament (the one elected political body) passes bills to decide - guess what - how thick the tiles should be on the walls of a butcher's laboratory! (Not kidding!)
No wonder people are getting exasperated. Nationalist parties are gaining ground in Italy, but also in France, Austria, Poland, the Netherlands, even Germany in spite of the long-lasting post-war trauma. Britain opted out. You'd think it would set decision-makers thinking, in Brussels. It does not. They just keep on as before, quagmired in their own certainties and political correctness.
The end is near, my friends. Europe was a fantastic dream. We all believed and hoped. Then the technocrats laid their power-grabbing hands on it, and they'd rather see it dead than alter their options. The only way to salvage the EU would be to re-write its constitution, and to let the peoples have their say in public matters. Our so-called "élites" are not prepared to consent to that. Disaster is round the bend...
I agree with the existence of the problems that you have mentioned. To solve these problems there are two possible solutions, with revolutions, with the cutting of the heads mentioned by you, or with the reforms, so it has always been. But never, whatever was the solution, the existence of the country has not been questioned. It is not known whether the EU will resist to these strong internal contradictions and to the external attacks. But i do not know for example what France will do in a world of the future where the Great Powers are as big as a continent. Exactly one of these Great Powers, by advertising the new "toy" said that just one like this is enough to wipe off from the face of the earth a country as big as France. For this, i think that you must not destroy this dream called Europe, but see what can be done better.

LABERIA
09-06-18, 11:13
this is not the populism to be worried about

the populism is to blaim the Euro for what goes wrong in Italy
Italy is the poorest performer of Europe lately
and it is because of lack of necessary reforms inside Italy

the Mafia and corruption are some internal problems to be tackled

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Italy

They say that Germany is deindustrializing Italy, the Germans are destroying Italian heavy industry.

bicicleur
09-06-18, 14:10
They say that Germany is deindustrializing Italy, the Germans are destroying Italian heavy industry.

this and other bull shit circulates instead of pinpointing the problems that have to be adressed inside Italy

Salento
09-06-18, 15:14
this and other bull shit circulates instead of pinpointing the problems that have to be adressed inside Italy

You have demonstrated in multiple threads and posts a clear Anti-Italian Bias.

Pax Augusta
09-06-18, 15:48
They say that Germany is deindustrializing Italy, the Germans are destroying Italian heavy industry.

Who is saying that? 60 million Italians in choir or someone in particular? It seems to me very difficult that all 60 million Italians say the same thing.

I can help you.

The one who, more than others, has spread in Italy the idea that the Germans, to be precise the Franco-German axis, have contributed to destroy the Italian heavy industry is a French economist, Alain Parguez.

The French Alain Parguez stated that the main purpose of the French tecnocrats was to destroy Italy, and they were the French to involve the German in this purpose.

Alain Parguez is Emeritus Professor of Economics of the University of Franche-Comte, Besancon (France) and was associated with the Economics Department at the University of Ottawa.

http://www.neties.com/APE.htm


Alain Parguez's statements from a summit held 6 years, in 2012.

"the obsession of the French technocrats and their economists was precisely to destroy the industrial base of Italy"

"One of the main ideologues of the Euro, Jacques Attali, in 1985, in the final phase of the debate on the Maastricht Treaty, states verbatim: "our main objective is to destroy forever any industrial capacity outside Germany and France".

"85% of net German exports, and this also applies to France, are within the eurozone, which is why, contrary to what you might think, they will never peacefully accept the fact that Greece or Italy abandon the eurozone, precisely because the corporations, the big French and German companies, would suddenly find themselves without earnings. It is therefore absurd to accuse countries like Italy and Greece to be responsible for their own deficits; without the deficits of your country (Italy) and Greece, the situation of French and German companies would already be bankrupt."

"There is a fundamental point that too many people ignore: the Germans were extremely reluctant to enter the monetary union; there was a period, especially during the early 1970s, when monetary and fiscal policy was much more expansionary in Germany than in France; so why did the Mitterand regime oblige Germany to enter the European Union (EU)? The answer is simple: the Kohl government was financed entirely by French secret funds; and that's not all: there was a country that was hated by the French establishment for a very long time; and this country was just yours, Italy; the obsession of the French technocrats and their economists was precisely to destroy the industrial base of Italy; this is why they accused Italian governments of always being too soft about wages, unions and purchasing power.

How could the Italian economy be destroyed? Imposing a revaluation of the currency; and when Italy decided to adopt the euro, this was in conjunction with the decision to a revaluation of at least 45% of the price; therefore, suddenly, the Italians could no longer export outside the euro zone.

It makes me laugh when people say, "but if we leave the euro like we do? It will be a nightmare ". Italy has been completely destroyed by the euro!
Imagine the Italian industry relative prices, for example in the US market: with a sudden increase of 40%, it was clear that Italian exports would collapse overnight. Taking out of Italy game, at this point it was decided to seduce Greece, Portugal, Ireland, for the same reasons: to increase exports."



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7eeX0-BA9k

Angela
09-06-18, 17:47
Who is saying that? 60 million Italians in choir or someone in particular? It seems to me very difficult that all 60 million Italians say the same thing.

I can help you.

The one who, more than others, has spread in Italy the idea that the Germans, to be precise the Franco-German axis, have contributed to destroy the Italian heavy industry is a French economist, Alain Parguez.

The French Alain Parguez stated that the main purpose of the French tecnocrats was to destroy Italy, and they were the French to involve the German in this purpose.

Alain Parguez is Emeritus Professor of Economics of the University of Franche-Comte, Besancon (France) and was associated with the Economics Department at the University of Ottawa.

http://www.neties.com/APE.htm


Alain Parguez's statements from a summit held 6 years, in 2012.

"the obsession of the French technocrats and their economists was precisely to destroy the industrial base of Italy"

"One of the main ideologues of the Euro, Jacques Attali, in 1985, in the final phase of the debate on the Maastricht Treaty, states verbatim: "our main objective is to destroy forever any industrial capacity outside Germany and France".

"85% of net German exports, and this also applies to France, are within the eurozone, which is why, contrary to what you might think, they will never peacefully accept the fact that Greece or Italy abandon the eurozone, precisely because the corporations, the big French and German companies, would suddenly find themselves without earnings. It is therefore absurd to accuse countries like Italy and Greece to be responsible for their own deficits; without the deficits of your country (Italy) and Greece, the situation of French and German companies would already be bankrupt."

"There is a fundamental point that too many people ignore: the Germans were extremely reluctant to enter the monetary union; there was a period, especially during the early 1970s, when monetary and fiscal policy was much more expansionary in Germany than in France; so why did the Mitterand regime oblige Germany to enter the European Union (EU)? The answer is simple: the Kohl government was financed entirely by French secret funds; and that's not all: there was a country that was hated by the French establishment for a very long time; and this country was just yours, Italy; the obsession of the French technocrats and their economists was precisely to destroy the industrial base of Italy; this is why they accused Italian governments of always being too soft about wages, unions and purchasing power.

How could the Italian economy be destroyed? Imposing a revaluation of the currency; and when Italy decided to adopt the euro, this was in conjunction with the decision to a revaluation of at least 45% of the price; therefore, suddenly, the Italians could no longer export outside the euro zone.

It makes me laugh when people say, "but if we leave the euro like we do? It will be a nightmare ". Italy has been completely destroyed by the euro!
Imagine the Italian industry relative prices, for example in the US market: with a sudden increase of 40%, it was clear that Italian exports would collapse overnight. Taking out of Italy game, at this point it was decided to seduce Greece, Portugal, Ireland, for the same reasons: to increase exports."



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7eeX0-BA9k

Obviously paid to say all this by ultra-nationalist Italians. :)

Pax Augusta
09-06-18, 17:50
Obviously paid to say all this by ultra-nationalist Italians. :)

Of course. :)

On a serious note, there are other foreign academics who in these years have helped to grow certain feelings in Italy. Now I'm not here even to discuss whether they are accurate or not, but I report what happened.

Angela
09-06-18, 18:10
Of course. :)

On a serious note, there are others foreign academics who in these years have helped to grow certain feelings in Italy. Now I'm not here even to discuss whether they are accurate or not, but I report what happened.

Indeed, just for the sake of clarity, my personal "economic" philosophy is much further to the right than that of most Italians. I absolutely believe in lowering taxation (I think the flat tax is a very interesting idea), reforming labor laws and pension law and on and on, but that has nothing necessarily to do with whether Italy should be on the Euro. I also have personally been against the Euro from the very beginning. Maybe it's just that I actually read at the time what economists from other countries were saying.

As I've said umpteen times before, most people put their own country first, whether they say so for mass public consumption or not, well, maybe other than a lot of Italians. :)

Angela
09-06-18, 18:57
Indeed, just for the sake of clarity, my personal "economic" philosophy is much further to the right than that of most Italians. I absolutely believe in lowering taxation (I think the flat tax is a very interesting idea), reforming labor laws and pension law and on and on, but that has nothing necessarily to do with whether Italy should be on the Euro. I also have personally been against the Euro from the very beginning. Maybe it's just that I actually read at the time what economists from other countries were saying.

As I've said umpteen times before, most people put their own country first, whether they say so for mass public consumption or not, well, maybe other than a lot of Italians. :)

Kenneth Rogoff in the Guardian:
"



It is now fairly obvious that the euro was not necessary to the success of the EU, and instead has proved a massive impediment, as many economists on this side of the Atlantic had predicted. Eurocrats have long likened European integration to riding a bicycle: one must keep moving forward or fall down. If so, the premature adoption of the single currency is best thought of as a detour through thick, wet cement."

"For southern Europe as a whole, the single currency has proved to be a golden cage, forcing greater fiscal and monetary rectitude but removing the exchange rate as a critical cushion against unexpected shocks."

" If southern European countries had kept their own currencies, they might never have dug as big a debt hole and would have had the option of partial default through inflation."
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/16/the-eurozone-must-reform-or-die-merkel-macron
Kenneth Rogoff is professor of economics and public policy at Harvard University and recipient of the 2011 Deutsche Bank Prize in Financial Economics

This article by Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel prize winning economist, should be read carefully before commenting on these issues:

"The Problem With Europe Is The Euro":
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/10/joseph-stiglitz-the-problem-with-europe-is-the-euro

"It is perhaps natural that the eurozone’s leaders want to blame the victim – to blame the countries in recession or depression or reeling from a referendum result – for bringing about this state of affairs. They do not want to blame themselves and the great institutions that they have helped create, and which they now head. But blaming the victim will not solve the euro problem – and it is in large measure unfair."

That's why I said that it was a terrible retreat to withdraw the candidacy of the first finance minister. He understood this. The new one will be a disaster: another yes man to the EU.

bicicleur
09-06-18, 19:08
Kenneth Rogoff in the Guardian:
"



It is now fairly obvious that the euro was not necessary to the success of the EU, and instead has proved a massive impediment, as many economists on this side of the Atlantic had predicted. Eurocrats have long likened European integration to riding a bicycle: one must keep moving forward or fall down. If so, the premature adoption of the single currency is best thought of as a detour through thick, wet cement."

"For southern Europe as a whole, the single currency has proved to be a golden cage, forcing greater fiscal and monetary rectitude but removing the exchange rate as a critical cushion against unexpected shocks."

" If southern European countries had kept their own currencies, they might never have dug as big a debt hole and would have had the option of partial default through inflation."
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/16/the-eurozone-must-reform-or-die-merkel-macron
Kenneth Rogoff is professor of economics and public policy at Harvard University and recipient of the 2011 Deutsche Bank Prize in Financial Economics

This article by Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel prize winning economist, should be read carefully before commenting on these issues:

"The Problem With Europe Is The Euro":
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/10/joseph-stiglitz-the-problem-with-europe-is-the-euro

"It is perhaps natural that the eurozone’s leaders want to blame the victim – to blame the countries in recession or depression or reeling from a referendum result – for bringing about this state of affairs. They do not want to blame themselves and the great institutions that they have helped create, and which they now head. But blaming the victim will not solve the euro problem – and it is in large measure unfair."

That's why I said that it was a terrible retreat to withdraw the candidacy of the first finance minister. He understood this. The new one will be a disaster: another yes man to the EU.

I agree that the Euro was a politcal project, decided by politicians ignoring certain economical realities.
But I strongly doubt that Italy would have been better of without the Euro.

"For southern Europe as a whole, the single currency has proved to be a golden cage, forcing greater fiscal and monetary rectitude but removing the exchange rate as a critical cushion against unexpected shocks."

With or without the Euro, greater fiscal and monetary rectitude is required anyway.
He has a point though re unexpected shocks.

Sile
09-06-18, 19:28
I agree that the Euro was a politcal project, decided by politicians ignoring certain economical realities.
But I strongly doubt that Italy would have been better of without the Euro.
"For southern Europe as a whole, the single currency has proved to be a golden cage, forcing greater fiscal and monetary rectitude but removing the exchange rate as a critical cushion against unexpected shocks."
With or without the Euro, greater fiscal and monetary rectitude is required anyway.
He has a point though re unexpected shocks.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/blog/2016/dec/05/italy-euro-economy-competitiveness
.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/italy-using-eu-as-a-scapegoat-can-be-an-obstacle-to-deep-reform-1.3522617

Ailchu
09-06-18, 22:08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7eeX0-BA9k

2:37-2:55 or at 1:58 to 2:06. at 1:43 couldn't hold myself sry. i tried. who can listen to this?

pause too long, accent too strong.

bicicleur
09-06-18, 23:14
https://www.theguardian.com/business/blog/2016/dec/05/italy-euro-economy-competitiveness
.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/italy-using-eu-as-a-scapegoat-can-be-an-obstacle-to-deep-reform-1.3522617

exactly my point of view

but those who refuse to face these facts will find plenty of papers and reporters putting the blaim elsewhere

bicicleur
10-06-18, 20:15
You have demonstrated in multiple threads and posts a clear Anti-Italian Bias.

I like Italy, it's a very nice country. I go on holidays there sometimes.
Most Italians are very proud of their own country, and they have some reasons.
But for some, their pride prevents them to face some realities.
Sorry that I'm not cheering along with them.
Not everything is 'magnificent' and 'splendid'.

Northener
11-06-18, 13:28
The Euro was aimed to keep Germany ín line, a French desire after the unification of Germany, without the Euro the Deutsch Mark would be the dominant currency in Europe now....no doubt.

And yes it was also a technocratic project without much eye for the sructural differences in Europe. So what is in the monetary policy 'good' for one part of Europe isn't necessarily good for another part.

So big chance it collapses in the end....with probably bad effects (we can't project all now) for all of us in Europe...

bicicleur
11-06-18, 13:58
The Euro was aimed to keep Germany ín line, a French desire after the unification of Germany, without the Euro the Deutsch Mark would be the dominant currency in Europe now....no doubt.

And yes it's was also a technocratic project without much eye for the sructural differences in Europe. So what is in the monetary policy 'good' for one part of Europe isn't necessarily good for another part.

So big chance it collapses in the end....with probably bad effects (we can't project all now) for all of us in Europe...

I'm not so sure about the latter.
After all the Greeks decided not to leave the Euro.
There is a huge difference between the cheap rhetoric and the seriousness of crossing a point of no return.
Both Italian new government parties shouted out loud they would leave the Euro, which would be so much better for Italy.
But nothing to be found about that in their very recent government formation deal.

A. Papadimitriou
11-06-18, 15:13
After all the Greeks decided not to leave the Euro.


Greece should have left the euro 8 years ago.

The truth though is that the parties which openly supported an exist from the Eurozone never got more than 1% of the votes.

So, Italy is different.

brick
11-06-18, 16:00
The former French president Nicolas Sarkozy wanted the war against Libya, damaging Italy a lot, because the overwhelming majority of the landings in Italy after Gaddafi's death comes from Libya. Now we know the reason why the French Sarkozy wanted to kill Gaddafi, to hide the fact that he had been financed by the Libyans. The continuous landings of migrants in Italy are the main reason for the rise of populism in Italy. Italy should sue the French government.


French inquiry opens into allegations Gaddafi funded Sarkozy 2007 campaign

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/19/french-inquiry-gaddafi-sarkozy-2007-campaign


Why Did the U.S. and Its Allies Bomb Libya? Corruption Case Against Sarkozy Sheds New Light on Ousting of Gaddafi.

https://theintercept.com/2018/04/28/sarkozy-gaddafi-libya-bombing/

bicicleur
11-06-18, 16:14
Greece should have left the euro 8 years ago.

The truth though is that the parties which openly supported an exist from the Eurozone never got more than 1% of the votes.

So, Italy is different.

well, at least they supported Tsipras and Varoufakis who were going for a large debt relief

that is another similarity between Italy and Greece

the new government parties also campaigned for a debt relief
again, nothing of that is found back in the new government deal


Greece, in the end got partial debt relief and de facto refinancement at new, very favourable rates,
but they had to accept fargoing austerity measures to get it
it was not the way Tsipras and Varoufakis had promised

Sile
11-06-18, 19:51
Greece should have left the euro 8 years ago.

The truth though is that the parties which openly supported an exist from the Eurozone never got more than 1% of the votes.

So, Italy is different.

The EU know that a max of 4 million tax paying Greeks can never repay the debt ...........the Greek people did not realise this when they voted

LABERIA
11-06-18, 20:04
The former French president Nicolas Sarkozy wanted the war against Libya, damaging Italy a lot, because the overwhelming majority of the landings in Italy after Gaddafi's death comes from Libya. Now we know the reason why the French Sarkozy wanted to kill Gaddafi, to hide the fact that he had been financed by the Libyans. The continuous landings of migrants in Italy are the main reason for the rise of populism in Italy. Italy should sue the French government.


French inquiry opens into allegations Gaddafi funded Sarkozy 2007 campaign

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/19/french-inquiry-gaddafi-sarkozy-2007-campaign


Why Did the U.S. and Its Allies Bomb Libya? Corruption Case Against Sarkozy Sheds New Light on Ousting of Gaddafi.

https://theintercept.com/2018/04/28/sarkozy-gaddafi-libya-bombing/

I don`t think that Ghedafi was killed just to hide a case of corruption. There was a common interest between France and Great Britain to remove Ghedafi from the power.

Yetos
11-06-18, 21:20
Hm I read all of you,

Greece is a very strange case,

Although lost at least 300 000 places of work to just 1 country, Bulgaria,
who wonders how many others in Balkans.
the things that IMF and EU suggest tend to loose more places of work,
Greece made a referendum which started with another question, and ended with another question, and stupidity,

Greece is tottaly another story, for example notice
that Greece has an army machine, that not even Visegrad with 60 million does not have,
ranking at a position that not even Germany has, although the last has military industry,
just think except Serbia, Greece has much military as all the behind iron curtain countries, now in EU,

imagine what will happen if EU dismiss an army equal to Italian army,
ranking at 4-6 place in EU,

Italy's case is very different,
Italy's problem is not the same with Greece,
in Italy the problem existed before their unification,
Only The things I read here, are enough to remind me another country,
The Yugoslavia, Yugoslavia before 1970's was a quite progressive country, and its president manage to hold back autonomistic problems,
but after 1970's when gave partial economical autonomy and priviladges, open the bag of the Aeolos and release the winds.
so by what I read Italy's system is just like EU system,
os they either run back to a confederation of States, either they must go ahead to a central fiscal union with no autonomies.

the main problem EU has,

as for the Euro,
Yes it is the No 1 problem with many EU countries and yet is the No 1 salvation for others,
But is not the only one,

for example just look at Eu with open borders, and free to travel corporations,
the succed of Greece for example was that manage with lower taxes to have such a military machine,
today by raising taxes not only lost industry and working places and money, but is in danger to lose the military balance,
Why? for example a central Europe country sourounded by Eu countries spends 3-4% of the tottal goverment income for military, whule Greece needs 8-9% (which droped after crisis)
So who contributes more to the most expensive EU industry?

you see every body can say what ever, or think just whatever,
but by losing Greece her army, EU military industry loses a good client, and the balance and stability in Meditterrenean can be lost,

the other factor,
the game among EU-Russia-NATO,

do we know and understand that major energy provider for Central and North Europe is Gazprom from Russia?
as also what kind of market it is?
just remember that 1 year embargo, some baltic countries lost even 70% of their exportations, etc etc.

So the main question is WHAT EUROPE WE WANT?

if Greece abbandons her army, surely it will be a prosperous country,
BUT WILL EU REPLACE THAT ARMY IN MEDITTEREAN?

and offcourse, the most easy to blaime Mercel,
Yes Germany is the main economical locomotive of EU
Yes Germany is possesed with an economical austerity
but that austerity is killing South Europe,

The main problem is not Italy or Greece or Portugal,
the main problem is in the mind of EU,
for example the ELM emergency liquid mechanism that started first timeat the times the Greek crisis is a foundamental mechanism for future of EU,
EU must start to build more unification laws,
otherwise will end with a civil war like USA at 1800's or with 2 EU's

the Euro balance the last 2 years is not against EU, by a ratio E/$ 1.1-1.15 is quite good, yet not competιtive,
but considering the killing 1,60 that was once, is much better.

We open a wide EU very fast, before stabilizing against crush tests the older ones.

Northener
11-06-18, 21:45
Why? for example a central Europe country sourounded by Eu countries spends 3-4% of the tottal goverment income for military, whule Greece needs 8-9% (which droped after crisis)
So who contributes more to the most expensive EU industry?

you see every body can say what ever, or think just whatever,
but by losing Greece her army, EU military industry loses a good client, and the balance and stability in Meditterrenean can be lost,


Red somethings that confirms this Yetos.....There were in the negotiations with EU some policy advice to cut the military spending....but the Germans were against it because Greece was a big costumer. Sometimes we life in a strange, absurd world... A drop in the military budget was for the Greece population may be the least hurting...but the defense lobby in Germany prevailed.

Boreas
11-06-18, 23:56
EU must start to build more unification laws,


I totally agree with it, but it will be bloody-messy so it is good to kick out or give a right to countries for getting out chance who does not share same mentality. Even you look at this perspective, Bretix is a good thing.

Northener
12-06-18, 19:53
I totally agree with it, but it will be bloody-messy so it is good to kick out or give a right to countries for getting out chance who does not share same mentality. Even you look at this perspective, Bretix is a good thing.

Just the other way around, When the European Nations turn their backs against each other. That turned back the clock before ww2. Indeed that could be bloody messy....


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

A. Papadimitriou
12-06-18, 22:33
well, at least they supported Tsipras and Varoufakis who were going for a large debt relief
that is another similarity between Italy and Greece
the new government parties also campaigned for a debt relief
again, nothing of that is found back in the new government deal
Greece, in the end got partial debt relief and de facto refinancement at new, very favourable rates,
but they had to accept fargoing austerity measures to get it
it was not the way Tsipras and Varoufakis had promised

If Greece had defaulted in 2010 (when, for example, 70% of Greek government bonds were held by foreign investors, primarily banks) the problems for German and French banks would have been significant. Maybe manageable, but we can't know what would have been the impact of the default.

The 'bailout agreements' were a way to indirectly give money to their banks (of course from the money of their taxpayers and taxpayers from other countries - watch what you vote), while keeping Greece in the Eurozone.

Greece had to accept that because it was the only way to remain in the Eurozone which was what everyone wanted here.

(I would have supported an exit then (2010, not in 2015), but I was against the people who presented it as easy. The situation would have been definitely much worse for a short time and bad overall but, either way, any discussion about that is pointless).

In Italy there are parties that openly support an exist from the Eurozone (even if they don't really mean it) and get voted. That is different from what had happened in Greece. Maybe they can get something from that, maybe not.

LABERIA
12-06-18, 22:44
Italy's Anti-Elite Prime Minister Plays by Rules at G7 Club (https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2018/06/09/business/09reuters-g7-summit-conte.html)

LABERIA
12-06-18, 22:47
http://www.affaritaliani.it/politica/g7-trump-invita-conte-alla-casa-bianca-molto-contento-del-governo-544908.html
http://notizie.tiscali.it/politica/articoli/conte-trump-a-contento-mio-nuovo-governo-presto-incontro-in-usa/

bicicleur
12-06-18, 23:53
If Greece had defaulted in 2010 (when, for example, 70% of Greek government bonds were held by foreign investors, primarily banks) the problems for German and French banks would have been significant. Maybe manageable, but we can't know what would have been the impact of the default.

The 'bailout agreements' were a way to indirectly give money to their banks (of course from the money of their taxpayers and taxpayers from other countries - watch what you vote), while keeping Greece in the Eurozone.

Greece had to accept that because it was the only way to remain in the Eurozone which was what everyone wanted here.

(I would have supported an exit then (2010, not in 2015), but I was against the people who presented it as easy. The situation would have been definitely much worse for a short time and bad overall but, either way, any discussion about that is pointless).

In Italy there are parties that openly support an exist from the Eurozone (even if they don't really mean it) and get voted. That is different from what had happened in Greece. Maybe they can get something from that, maybe not.

maybe they can get something
but at conditions that will dissapoint all of their voters

and yes, the Greek bailout prevented bankruptcy of the banks, some German banks, but also Greek banks, and the money was not given to the banks, but to Greece
and yes, Greece had to pay the banks with that money
but if Greece hadn't received that money, Greece could start printing their own drachmes which would have been worth less than the paper they were printed on

Boreas
13-06-18, 06:32
Just the other way around, When the European Nations turn their backs against each other. That turned back the clock before ww2. Indeed that could be bloody messy....
Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Your Europe and my Europe are different. Mine is just France-Germany and Benelux.

There shouldn't be Europe Union. It should be United Europe.

Even Spain and Italy havn't got fully EU standarts. Massive Expansion to East was madness.

bicicleur
13-06-18, 07:47
Your Europe and my Europe are different. Mine is just France-Germany and Benelux.

There shouldn't be Europe Union. It should be United Europe.

Even Spain and Italy havn't got fully EU standarts. Massive Expansion to East was madness.

you make it perfectly clear
everybody his Europe

that means there is no Europe

luciano
14-06-18, 13:53
Are you assuming Italians and their governments must behave the same as those of e.g. Sweden? You Swedish are not better than them, and it's a absurd that non-italians ( or whatever they be ) are *imposing* their judgement and conceptions upon another group people ( or individuals ).

Angela
14-06-18, 15:36
Are you assuming Italians and their governments must behave the same as those of e.g. Sweden? You Swedish are not better than them, and it's a absurd that non-italians ( or whatever they be ) are *imposing* their judgement and conceptions upon another group people ( or individuals ).

Especially when they don't have any knowledge whatsoever about Italy or clearly even about economics in general. Nobel prize-winning economists, a whole raft of non-European economists, as a matter of fact, are all disdainfully dismissed because their point of view doesn't support the "party" line fed to Europeans by EU and Euro supporting European economists.

Italy has caved on the Euro. When this doesn't work, I hope Italians insist on it at the polls. If the stock market keeps going in the right direction, maybe I'll retire really early, move back and start agitating. :)

That's not to say that I don't think Italian economic policy is screwed up, because I do: too much socialism, not enough capitalism.

It's the tone of the commentary here to which I object more than anything else. That same old, same old condescension and rudeness toward any Southern European country. You don't know how tempted I am sometimes to let loose on their countries and tell them exactly what I think of what I see as their problems and shortcomings, but our parents raised us to behave with some civility and politeness.

brick
14-06-18, 16:07
The beauty of the internet. A Turk who talks about what is Europe in his opinion, is like a Chinese arguing about the best burger. Fortunately for all the Europeans, attempts to get Turkey into the EU have failed. That yes would have been the greatest madness.

Curious also a Belgian biting the hand that feeds him. Few people in the world would remember the existence of Belgium, a country literally invented from nothing, if Belgium were not the seat of the European Parliament, European Commission, Council of the European Union, and European Council.

Angela
14-06-18, 16:44
The beauty of the internet. A Turk who talks about what is Europe in his opinion, is like a Chinese arguing about the best burger. Fortunately for all the Europeans, attempts to get Turkey into the EU have failed. That yes would have been the greatest madness.

Curious also a Belgian biting the hand that feeds him. Few people in the world would remember the existence of Belgium, a country literally invented from nothing, if Belgium were not the seat of the European Parliament, European Commission, Council of the European Union, and European Council.

That crosses the line. Do that again and you'll get an infraction.

Some informed commentary from The Financial Times.
https://www.ft.com/content/b09b785a-6d66-11e8-8863-a9bb262c5f53?desktop=true&segmentId=7c8f09b9-9b61-4fbb-9430-9208a9e233c8#myft:notification:daily-email:content

Salento
15-06-18, 15:29
“The new Prime Minister of Italy is Great, very strong on Immigration, like I am by the way, it seems that very strong on Immigration wins now.”

President Trump

15 June 2018 - Fox News (My TV, so .... no link.) :)

bicicleur
20-06-18, 18:47
The beauty of the internet. A Turk who talks about what is Europe in his opinion, is like a Chinese arguing about the best burger. Fortunately for all the Europeans, attempts to get Turkey into the EU have failed. That yes would have been the greatest madness.

Curious also a Belgian biting the hand that feeds him. Few people in the world would remember the existence of Belgium, a country literally invented from nothing, if Belgium were not the seat of the European Parliament, European Commission, Council of the European Union, and European Council.

what you obviously don't know is that most Belgians, including me are rather pragmatic and not chauvinist at all
and sometimes we make fun with overly chauvinistic people in other countries

BarryBlile
08-07-19, 04:12
Thank you Aragorn881; well presented.Now, anyone else have some thoughts to add?___

Messier 67
27-08-19, 02:01
“The new Prime Minister of Italy is Great, very strong on Immigration, like I am by the way, it seems that very strong on Immigration wins now.”

President Trump

15 June 2018 - Fox News (My TV, so .... no link.) :)

The issue on immigration is the Roman Model. If you have puppet states or subjects, they should be able to move to their mother country. Greeks could become Roman Citizens. Anatolians became Romans with Roman benefits. Saul of Tarsus was a Roman citizen.

So if you are an imperialist nation that controls other lands political future, they should have the right of movement to the Imperial lands. Washington with their wars is an Empire. You have the Monroe Doctrine with the Roosevelt Corollary ruling over the lands of Latin America. Ask yourself if Russia can have a military base in Venezuela. No they are not allowed to. By Washington decree of they would get a war and invaded. This is colonialism. If racist Americans don't want any 'brown skinned' Venezuelans (I know two personally) coming across the border and 'invading 'Murica' and making it any less white or whatever nonsense... then stop interfering in the affairs of the Latin Americans. If Washington wants to be an Empire, then they are expected to not be a bag of racists and reject those who want to be Roman citizens.

Italy is tied into NATO with 'peace keeping operations'... Rome had those too, they were called wars. If Italy were to chastise Washington over more wars in Libya, Syria, Iran and soon Iran and North Korea (if trump and Kim stop holding hands), then the Italians would not be Imperialists with a justification for North Africans and Africans migrating to Italy by boat.

I am with the new government, but to not appear racist, don't give any reason for anyone to believe you are Imperialists and then wash your hand of the situation. Italy has enough on their plate with a recession, and stagnation. They can't even take care of their own citizens, and this is why people are flocking to the hate-filled Lega, which is neo-nazis in their approach on Gypsies and other minorities. They want Italy to work for them, not for the rest of the world. Italy is in enough debt and can barely take care of Italy.

Good Luck to Italy in working this out:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/26/italys-pd-pressed-to-accept-conte-to-lead-m5s-alliance-as-deadline-looms

Salento
27-08-19, 04:09
The issue on immigration is the Roman Model. If you have puppet states or subjects, they should be able to move to their mother country. Greeks could become Roman Citizens. Anatolians became Romans with Roman benefits. Saul of Tarsus was a Roman citizen.

So if you are an imperialist nation that controls other lands political future, they should have the right of movement to the Imperial lands. Washington with their wars is an Empire. You have the Monroe Doctrine with the Roosevelt Corollary ruling over the lands of Latin America. Ask yourself if Russia can have a military base in Venezuela. No they are not allowed to. By Washington decree of they would get a war and invaded. This is colonialism. If racist Americans don't want any 'brown skinned' Venezuelans (I know two personally) coming across the border and 'invading 'Murica' and making it any less white or whatever nonsense... then stop interfering in the affairs of the Latin Americans. If Washington wants to be an Empire, then they are expected to not be a bag of racists and reject those who want to be Roman citizens.

Italy is tied into NATO with 'peace keeping operations'... Rome had those too, they were called wars. If Italy were to chastise Washington over more wars in Libya, Syria, Iran and soon Iran and North Korea (if trump and Kim stop holding hands), then the Italians would not be Imperialists with a justification for North Africans and Africans migrating to Italy by boat.

I am with the new government, but to not appear racist, don't give any reason for anyone to believe you are Imperialists and then wash your hand of the situation. Italy has enough on their plate with a recession, and stagnation. They can't even take care of their own citizens, and this is why people are flocking to the hate-filled Lega, which is neo-nazis in their approach on Gypsies and other minorities. They want Italy to work for them, not for the rest of the world. Italy is in enough debt and can barely take care of Italy.

Good Luck to Italy in working this out:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/26/italys-pd-pressed-to-accept-conte-to-lead-m5s-alliance-as-deadline-looms


That’s an old post, The Italian Government has fallen, and we still don't know who the next Prime Minister is going to be or if they re gonna give the job back to Conte again.

Also the alliances are changing, (“inciuccio”) and may be that the next government will be Left leaning.

The Lega is being sidelined by the Democrats.

The United States as an Economic and Military Power exercising its influence on other Countries, is hardly comparable with other Ancient Empires, in objectives, methods, and tactics.