J1 from Greece

[Alexandra_K]

Hello, my father tested at 23andme and his y dna haplogroup was found to be J1. He is Greek. I am new in this and I don't have a lot of knowledge on the subject but I was wondering if in this case J1 is ancient/ native or if it could be due to Arab/Turkish or maybe even Avar invasions.

[kmak]

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml

[kmak]

some j1 clade was semitic origin(phoenician settled and established colony around greece).

[kmak]

every j1 was not semitic origin. some j1 clade caucasian anatolid origin.

[Boreas]

Hello, my father tested at 23andme and his y dna haplogroup was found to be J1. He is Greek. I am new in this and I don't have a lot of knowledge on the subject but I was wondering if in this case J1 is ancient/ native or if it could be due to Arab/Turkish or maybe even Avar invasions.

J1 can't tell you to much thing. What is your sub haplogroup?

You can have a J1 which is just shown in Iran, so maybe you are grandson of one of the Darius Soilder.

Or If have Crete origin, and your J1 sub group related with Egypt, your ancesters maybe come to Greece in Mehmet Ali Pasha Egypt Period.

If you have common J1 group in Greece, it could be related with Phoenicians

I can extent this list :grin:

[Alexandra_K]

Thank you guys! 23andme just gives him J-M267 which I read is synonymous to J1. Is there a way to find out more using the 23andme raw data?

[Boreas]

Thank you guys! 23andme just gives him J-M267 which I read is synonymous to J1. Is there a way to find out more using the 23andme raw data?

10230

J-M267 is the general name so we have two options.

*You are really pure J-M267 which hasn't evolved since 32000 years

*You need to do deep Y-dna test and learn your current sub-group

10231

What is your Paternal history?

[Alexandra_K]

Thank you Boreas. I cannot open the attachments you send me. We just know that my father's father as well as his grandfather both came from Kephalonia, an Ionian island (in Western Greece). Probably some generations before them still came from the same island, although we don't know with great certainty.

[Boreas]

the images are from this website
https://yhaplogroups.wordpress.com/2015/10/18/haplogroup-j1-j1-m267/

[Alexandra_K]

Kephalonia has been under Venetian rule and I can imagine there have been also raids/invasions by Arabs as in most islands. Greece as a whole was also occupied by the Ottomans of course.
His autosomal results include: appr. 61% Balkan, 24% Italian, almost 4% West Asian (Turkish) and North African and the rest are broadly S.European or unassigned.

[Alexandra_K]

His autosomal matches include moslty Greeks, Italians, Balkanic people and Eastern Europeans, some Turks etc.

[Alexandra_K]

So he would have to test with another company from the beginning in order to know his sub-group? He cannot use the raw data from 23andme in some way in order to refine his y-dna result?

[ihype02]

The information you need for J1:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml

[Alexandra_K]

Thank you, ihype02, it seems I have to get more refined results in order to have a clearer idea. I was only hoping to be able to do that by uploading the raw data at some third party vendor instead of testing again.

[ihype02]

Thank you, ihype02, it seems I have to get more refined results in order to have a clearer idea. I was only hoping to be able to do that by uploading the raw data at some third party vendor instead of testing again.
Y-DNA only represent 2% of the DNA. It is carried from to father to son only, therefore it does not mean much, if it was an foreigner he was heavily mixed with natives as his autosomal DNA indicates.

[Alexandra_K]

Thank you ihype02. I read that J1 is possibly linked also to Etruscans. Would it be far fetched to think that in Greece it can at least for a part represent the Pelasgoi? Probably exaggerated but it crossed my mind.

[ihype02]

Search the history of the island and sub-halpogroup. You can most likely verify whenever it is European or Asian based on sub-halpogroup.

[Alexandra_K]

Thanks again! I would like to ask you again if there is any way to discover your sub-haplogroup without testing again at another company? I didn't understand if in the end if there is such a possibility.

[ihype02]

Thanks again! I would like to ask you again if there is any way to discover your sub-haplogroup without testing again at another company? I didn't understand if in the end if there is such a possibility.
Are you sure you didn't get the full haplogroup? It usually comes like J1a-56a+dsfas8df7asd8f etc? It depends on your request I guess, ask the company about it.

[Alexandra_K]

Ok, I'll do so, thank you!

[Boreas]

Y-DNA only represent 2% of the DNA. It is carried from to father to son only, therefore it does not mean much, if it was an foreigner he was heavily mixed with natives as his autosomal DNA indicates.

Just for being sure, 2% is coming from that

46 chromosomes, nearly 50

two is for gender. In men case Y is one of them.

So importance of Y is 2%.

[Alexandra_K]

yes, that's true

[Georgewalley]

Kephalonia has been under Venetian rule and I can imagine there have been also raids/invasions by Arabs as in most islands. Greece as a whole was also occupied by the Ottomans of course.
His autosomal results include: appr. 61% Balkan, 24% Italian, almost 4% West Asian (Turkish) and North African and the rest are broadly S.European or unassigned.

The West Asian isn't Turkish but most likely native Anatolian ancestry (could be ancient Hellenic, Hittite, Armenian also)

[Alexandra_K]

Thank you Georgewalley! As I asked before, could J1 be also linked to the Pelasgoi or other pre-hellenic groups (Kares, Leleges etc.)?

[ihype02]

Thank you Georgewalley! As I asked before, could J1 be also linked to the Pelasgoi or other pre-hellenic groups (Kares, Leleges etc.)?
It might be but we don't know yet because we don't have ancient DNA. Only Mycenaean and Minoan who are J2a and G2a.

[kmak]

Thank you Georgewalley! As I asked before, could J1 be also linked to the Pelasgoi or other pre-hellenic groups (Kares, Leleges etc.)?

leleges was not indo-european. I think that this people connect with semitic people such as phoenician.

[Alexandra_K]

Thank you both! Good to know! Yes, neither the Pelasgoi or the Kares would have been Indoeuropean.

[A. Papadimitriou]

Thank you ihype02. I read that J1 is possibly linked also to Etruscans. Would it be far fetched to think that in Greece it can at least for a part represent the Pelasgoi? Probably exaggerated but it crossed my mind.

J1 could have originated in Europe. At least, it could have existed in South East Europe, Ukraine and North Caucasus during the Epigravettian (Upper Paleolithic).

There are many theories concerning the Etruscans. I personally believe the original Tyrrhenians originated in Central Europe, but expanded in a region (Tuscany) where a language possibly related to the language of Mycenaeans was spoken. That is based on ancient sources like Dionysius of Halikarnassus. It isn't safe to trust ancient sources, but some people chose to believe what is written in the Bible for example. I think I will be ok.

Many would try to associate the Etruscans with ancient Anatolia. Therefore they would have had haplogroups found in Neolithic and/or Bronze Age Anatolia. But either way, most J1 subclades wouldn't have anything to do with them. Certainly, at least one subclade expanded with Semetic peoples. Sumerians could have had some J1. I am not very familiar with the phylogeny of any haplogroups though.

[A. Papadimitriou]

The word 'Leleges' could have been Indoeuropean.

Because there is an IE root leǵ- (to 'gather'), which also gave Greek λέγω (put in order, arrange, gather, choose, count, reckon also say, speak, converse) and λόγος (speech, reason, ratio, account etc)

And Greek often formed the perfect with reduplication

From Wikipedia:


Indo-European languages formerly used reduplication to form a number of verb forms, especially in the preterite or perfect. In the older Indo-European languages, many such verbs survive:[/LEFT]

spondeo, spopondi (Latin, "I vow, I vowed")
λείπω, λέλοιπα (Greek, "I leave, I left")
δέρκομαι, δέδορκα (Greek, "I see, I saw"; these Greek examples exhibit ablaut as well as reduplication)
háitan, haíháit (Gothic, "to name, I named")



λέγω could have had a perfect *'lelega in a Greek dialect and Λέλεγες could have descended from a participle.

[Kelmendasi]

J1 could have originated in Europe. At least, it could have existed in South East Europe, Ukraine and North Caucasus during the Epigravettian (Upper Paleolithic).

There are many theories concerning the Etruscans. I personally believe the original Tyrrhenians originated in Central Europe, but expanded in a region (Tuscany) where a language possibly related to the language of Mycenaeans was spoken. That is based on ancient sources like Dionysius of Halikarnassus. It isn't safe to trust ancient sources, but some people chose to believe what is written in the Bible for example. I think I will be ok.

Many would try to associate the Etruscans with ancient Anatolia. Therefore they would have had haplogroups found in Neolithic and/or Bronze Age Anatolia. But either way, most J1 subclades wouldn't have anything to do with them. Certainly, at least one subclade expanded with Semetic peoples. Sumerians could have had some J1. I am not very familiar with the phylogeny of any haplogroups though.
J1 most definitely didn't originate in Europe, it originates somewhere around the Caucasus and eastern Anatolia during the Paleolithic going by ancient samples and diversity. It then expanded during the Neolithic and Bronze Ages into the surrounding areas like the Levant and Arabia where the P58 clade dominates after being absorbed by Proto-Semitic peoples or earlier Afro-Asiatic peoples. There is a chance that J1 clades that are common in the Caucasus were present in EHG peoples due to contact with CHG but these J1 EHG would've been restricted to NE Europe as the only J1 clade which seems to be linked to early migration of J1 into Europe is found in Finland. Jean Manco has stated that Etruscan in Italy was an intrusion into a pre-existing pattern of Indo-European langauges and that the loan words from Anatolian languages like Hittite show origin from the eastern Mediterranean or Anatolia. J1 was present in Bronze Age Anatolians as shown by ancient samples, it might have even expanded into Anatolia earlier on. Sumerians probably did have J1 clades although they probably weren't related to the clades found in Semitic peoples but more related to the clades found in the Caucasus and Iran.

[ihype02]

Thank you both! Good to know! Yes, neither the Pelasgoi or the Kares would have been Indoeuropean.
Well I think that Pelasgians and early inhabitants of Greece where mostly J2a and G2a as Minoans and Mycenaeans are, but they could have carried some J1 seeing the interaction with the East. But nobody is in place to know so far.

[Kelmendasi]

J1 in Greece has different origins depending on clades. Those who carry clades under P58 probably have paternal origin from the Levant and have a link to Semitic peoples like the Phoenicians and Jews, those who have clades that are more common in the Caucasus and Anatolia could have paternal origin from cultures like the Kura-Araxes or Anatolain cultures.

[A. Papadimitriou]

J1 [...] orginates somewhere around the Caucasus and eastern Anatolia during the Paleolithic going by ancient samples and diversity.

When someone writes something like that I expect them to mention the ancient samples they have in mind and link to data about J1 diversity.

Either way, when I write 'could' I mean it is theoretically possible. It's not what I consider most likely. We are talking about an haplogroup with a possible time of origin 17,000 -24,000 years BP supposedly and North Caucasus is in Europe according to modern definitions of the concept.

[Kelmendasi]

When someone writes something like that I expect them to mention the ancient samples they have in mind and link to data about J1 diversity.

Either way, when I write 'could' I mean it is theoretically possible. It's not what I consider most likely. We are talking about an haplogroup with a possible time of origin 17,000 -24,000 years BP supposedly and North Caucasus is in Europe according to modern definitions of the concept.
Sure I'll tell you the sample, it was the sample from the upper Paleolithic found in the Satsurblia cave in Georgia found in Jones et al 2015 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9912, there is a chance that this sample is J1b other J1 samples that have been found are the J1 from Bronze Age Anatolia which was found in the same paper as the Mycenaean and Minoan one, J1-P58 in MBA Levant, Sidon and one J1-P58 in Neolithic or Bronze Age Jordan. As for diversity Chiaroni et al 2010 found that J1 has it's highest diversity in eastern Anatolia near lake Van https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/. This haplogroup most certainly originates in west Asia splitting from IJ not in the north Caucasus though but somewhere around eastern Anatolia and the south Caucasus area. At the earliest J1 could've reached Europe during the Mesolithic with EHG but only in NE Europe as suggested by the J* sample from Mesolithic Karelia which is believed to possibly be J1 and how there is a J1 clade exclusive to Finns which is pretty basal. Other clades would've expanded from West Asia later during the Bronze Age, Classical Era, Roman Era etc.

[Boreas]

The West Asian isn't Turkish but most likely native Anatolian ancestry (could be ancient Hellenic, Hittite, Armenian also)

It is Turkish, not Turkic

[Boreas]

J1 could have originated in Europe. At least, it could have existed in South East Europe, Ukraine and North Caucasus during the Epigravettian (Upper Paleolithic).


Well there are European Subgroups and non-European Subgroups.

[Sile]

Kephalonia has been under Venetian rule and I can imagine there have been also raids/invasions by Arabs as in most islands. Greece as a whole was also occupied by the Ottomans of course.
His autosomal results include: appr. 61% Balkan, 24% Italian, almost 4% West Asian (Turkish) and North African and the rest are broadly S.European or unassigned.

http://romeartlover.tripod.com/Cefalonia.html
.
.
Ottomans never took the island

[Sile]

It is Turkish, not Turkic

Turkic are central-asian people and there was no Turkic/turkish in Anatolia neither in south-caucasus in ancient BC times ...............

[Boreas]

Turkic are central-asian people and there was no Turkic/turkish in Anatolia neither in south-caucasus in ancient BC times ...............

it is not Turkish = Turkic. Do not use it like that "Turkic/turkish"

[kmak]

while persian-greek war persian army very crowded army send to greece. this army had middle easterner soldiers whit iranian soldiers. this middle easterner soldiers may had semitic ancestry. your y dna descended from this middle easterner soldiers?

[kmak]

it is not Turkish = Turkic. Do not use it like that "Turkic/turkish"

turkic is common name middle asian turks, middle eastern turks and european-anatolian turks.

[kmak]

it is not Turkish = Turkic. Do not use it like that "Turkic/turkish"
and altaic is common name turkic,mongolic and tungusic people. this people descended from siberia.

[Boreas]

http://romeartlover.tripod.com/Cefalonia.html
.
.
Ottomans never took the island

Actually They took for a few decades

[Salento]

while persian-greek war persian army very crowded army send to greece. this army had middle easterner soldiers whit iranian soldiers. this middle easterner soldiers may had semitic ancestry. your y dna descended from this middle easterner soldiers?

Did you know your Haplogroup?
If you do please Tell us.
I answered your question about Y T famous members.
So what are you? J T R ....

[Alexandra_K]

I know Sile. it's just that their presence in all the Balkans for centuries could have been an influence even in the case of my father who comes from Kephalonia.

[kmak]

Did you know your Haplogroup?
If you do please Tell us.
I answered your question about Y T famous members.
So what are you? J T R ....

I don't know my Y-DNA

[Salento]

I don't know my Y-DNA

I understand. Thanks.

[A. Papadimitriou]

Sure I'll tell you the sample, it was the sample from the upper Paleolithic found in the Satsurblia cave in Georgia found in Jones et al 2015 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9912, there is a chance that this sample is J1b other J1 samples that have been found are the J1 from Bronze Age Anatolia which was found in the same paper as the Mycenaean and Minoan one, J1-P58 in MBA Levant, Sidon and one J1-P58 in Neolithic or Bronze Age Jordan. As for diversity Chiaroni et al 2010 found that J1 has it's highest diversity in eastern Anatolia near lake Van https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/. This haplogroup most certainly originates in west Asia splitting from IJ not in the north Caucasus though but somewhere around eastern Anatolia and the south Caucasus area. At the earliest J1 could've reached Europe during the Mesolithic with EHG but only in NE Europe as suggested by the J* sample from Mesolithic Karelia which is believed to possibly be J1 and how there is a J1 clade exclusive to Finns which is pretty basal. Other clades would've expanded from West Asia later during the Bronze Age, Classical Era, Roman Era etc.

You said 'samples', not sample. I don't believe the Bronze Age samples have anything to do with where an haplogroup that old originated, so we have the Hunter Gatherer from Satsurblia cave. That hunter gatherer sample is dated ~13.000 years before. The possible time of origin of J1 is 31.600 ybp according to Y-full.

Either way, the study you posted doesn't contain data form Europe. They had sampled 36 populations in West Asia.

By the way, I remember in Underhill's study about R1a1 there were many populations with significant variance away from where it is assumed that it originated.

You should understand that for me where any haplogroup originated isn't important. Most likely I am not J1. And I am not very interested to learn anything about my haplogroup. I just stated what I consider possible. I think it could have existed in Europe 20000 ybp, for example and because I think that I consider an origin in Europe theoretically possible, not the most possible scenario.