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Angela
07-06-18, 19:53
This is a podcast from Insight featuring Spencer Wells, Razib Khan and Patrick Wyman, a historian specializing in Late Antiquity who also authors a series of quite good podcasts called "The Tides of History".

They don't just talk about those three groups, but do spend the most time on them. They also offer a nice overview and summary of Late Antiquity in general.

It's nice to have geneticists and historians sort of comparing notes on these things, so I recommend it, particularly, perhaps, for people who don't have a background in this period. Of course, as they mention, as more and more samples are tested, things might look different, but as of now, this seems to be the latest word.

See if you get the joke at the end. It's sort of a "nerd" test. :)

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-insight/e/54794596?autoplay=true

Jovialis
07-06-18, 20:48
Thanks for posting this Angela, I was looking forward to this podcast. I especially enjoyed from 28:38 on.

Angela
07-06-18, 21:06
Thanks for posting this Angela, I was looking forward to this podcast. I especially enjoyed from 28:38 on.

You're very welcome. :)

I find most of their podcasts pretty good, although rather general.

I unreservedly recommend Patrick Wyman's podcasts for those who haven't spent years reading history books. He's a good summarizer.

Angela
11-06-18, 00:41
Razib Khan's blog post on it:

https://blog.insito.me/the-fall-of-rome-and-the-wandering-of-peoples-8417bdb2cafc

bicicleur
11-06-18, 10:02
What is 'Barbarian'? Is it whatever tribe outside the Roman Empire?

Jovialis
11-06-18, 15:09
Razib Khan's blog post on it:

https://blog.insito.me/the-fall-of-rome-and-the-wandering-of-peoples-8417bdb2cafc

Nice way for him to summarize those papers, and put them together into perspective.

Northener
11-06-18, 15:35
Nice summary indeed, he forget to tell that the Anglo-Saxons and Nordics did effect the whole coastal NW European zone. All along the North Sea. So not England alone.
They wiped out (gradually) the Celtic language on both sides the Isles and the NW Continent and founded the old Anglo Saxon and Old Frisian language.
Barbarian is a Roman sticker, they had a harsh, rough, but also rich culture see Sutton Hoo, Beowulf etcera with an own kind of alphabet (runes).
In the end they left a footprint in large parts of the world (like the US).

bicicleur
11-06-18, 16:04
Nice summary indeed, he forget to tell that the Anglo-Saxons and Nordics did effect the whole coastal NW European zone. All along the North Sea. So not England alone.
They wiped out (gradually) the Celtic language on both sides the Isles and the NW Continent and founded the old Anglo Saxon and Old Frisian language.
Barbarian is a Roman sticker, they had a harsh, rough, but also rich culture see Sutton Hoo, Beowulf etcera with an own kind of alphabet (runes).
In the end they left a footprint in large parts of the world (like the US).

how far north did Celtic culture extend in NW Europe, and in what time interval?
were there La Tene Celts, or was it an older branch?

bicicleur
11-06-18, 16:06
Barbarian is a Roman sticker, they had a harsh, rough, but also rich culture see Sutton Hoo, Beowulf etcera with an own kind of alphabet (runes).
In the end they left a footprint in large parts of the world (like the US).

yes, and what about tribes like the Goths and the Franks, were they also considered barbaric?

Northener
11-06-18, 16:10
I guess so, all people above the limes.... Of course the Franks became 'civilised' (Romanized) in Belgium and Paris ;)

Northener
11-06-18, 16:17
how far north did Celtic culture extend in NW Europe, and in what time interval?
were there La Tene Celts, or was it an older branch?

The culture even into Friesland, Peter Schrijver (Prof. Celtic Studies Utrecht) stated in a recent publication that the old Frisii spoke a kind of Celtic. He showed that Old Frisian (from the migration time and beyond) was a language of 'Celts acquiring German'. Or German with a Celtic accent. Like the English Old Anglo-Saxon language.

Northener
11-06-18, 16:20
And I guess it was mostly an older branche: Bronze Age Central Europe (Unetice/Tumulus/Urnfield) influenced......

CrazyDonkey
13-06-18, 19:33
What is 'Barbarian'? Is it whatever tribe outside the Roman Empire?

The term is from the Greek, barbaros, meaning the opposite of polites, or "citizen". The theory is that the speech of non-Greek speakers (particularly from the north?) sounded like "bar-bar-bar" to Greek listeners. The term is found in the Linear B script, as pa-pa-ro, so dates back at least to the Mycenaeans.

I would assume that the term did not include the Minoans (Knossos), Egyptians (Memphis), and Phoenicians (Byblos and Ugarit), who represented superior civilizations that likely viewed the Greeks as rude, rough, and uncultured (or barbarians).

Another possible theory is that the term is related to "barber", which is traceable back to Latin, barba (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/barba#Latin), proto-Italic, *farβā, and possibly PIE, *bʰardʰeh₂, "beard". In that sense, a "barbarian" would be someone who was unshorn.

The term came to mean anyone who was unlettered (illiterate) and violent (uncivilized).

bicicleur
13-06-18, 21:08
The term is from the Greek, barbaros, meaning the opposite of polites, or "citizen". The theory is that the speech of non-Greek speakers (particularly from the north?) sounded like "bar-bar-bar" to Greek listeners. The term is found in the Linear B script, as pa-pa-ro, so dates back at least to the Mycenaeans.

I would assume that the term did not include the Minoans (Knossos), Egyptians (Memphis), and Phoenicians (Byblos and Ugarit), who represented superior civilizations that likely viewed the Greeks as rude, rough, and uncultured (or barbarians).

Another possible theory is that the term is related to "barber", which is traceable back to Latin, barba (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/barba#Latin), proto-Italic, *farβā, and possibly PIE, *bʰardʰeh₂, "beard". In that sense, a "barbarian" would be someone who was unshorn.

The term came to mean anyone who was unlettered (illiterate) and violent (uncivilized).

so it's a loanword from the Greek and the meaning of the word evolved over time

CrazyDonkey
13-06-18, 21:23
so it's a loanword from the Greek and the meaning of the word evolved over time

Or they are cognates, independently traceable back to PIE, with the original meaning, "bearded", forgotten in Greek. That doesn't mean that the Greek term didn't also bleed from southern Italy into Latin.

Govan
15-06-18, 01:09
A question I have for Northener is what are Hollanders? I know that when Anglo-Saxon missionaries went to convert Frisians in Utrecht , they partially failed , finally Franks conquered Frisia , it looks like the Franks made Frisia a less swampy place , to build urban centers , but some Dutch told me the arrival of jews from Spain and protestant Flemings boosted Holland as an important urban center . So only Northern Netherlands remained Nordic culturally?

are the central dutch samples from holland or guederland

CrazyDonkey
15-06-18, 21:50
Large numbers of French Huguenots settled in Amsterdam and the Dutch Republic.

Northener
15-06-18, 22:28
A question I have for Northener is what are Hollanders? I know that when Anglo-Saxon missionaries went to convert Frisians in Utrecht , they partially failed , finally Franks conquered Frisia , it looks like the Franks made Frisia a less swampy place , to build urban centers , but some Dutch told me the arrival of jews from Spain and protestant Flemings boosted Holland as an important urban center . So only Northern Netherlands remained Nordic culturally?

are the central dutch samples from holland or guederland

All barbarians Govan ;)

North (above the Rhine) is indeed especially influenced by the A-S and Nordics as a substrate old Frisii from the (pre) Roman times,
South is below the Rhine/ the Roman limes and had Roman and Celtic influences.
West (Holland) became the most urbanized wit Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague and Utrecht they boomed especially in the Dutch Golden Age in the 17 th century, mixed population from all over the country and indeed from Jews Hugenotes etc.

Gelderland is indeed a kind of Central Zone (but Holland has kind of Central position).

CrazyDonkey
16-06-18, 04:15
All barbarians Govan ;)

North (above the Rhine) is indeed especially influenced by the A-S and Nordics as a substrate old Frisii from the (pre) Roman times,
South is below the Rhine/ the Roman limes and had Roman and Celtic influences.
West (Holland) became the most urbanized wit Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague and Utrecht they boomed especially in the Dutch Golden Age in the 17 th century, mixed population from all over the country and indeed from Jews Hugenotes etc.

Gelderland is indeed a kind of Central Zone (but Holland has kind of Central position).

Interestingly, the Huguenots were from southern, not northern, France, so should accordingly be numbered among the "civilized", traceable to the Romans, while their persecutors, the Catholic League, would be the "barbarians", traceable to the Franks.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwps.ablongman.com%2Fw ps%2Fmedia%2Fobjects%2F262%2F268312%2Fart%2Ffigure s%2FKISH291.jpg&hash=2c77262dca1bf5397a336a77124a0c45

Angela
16-06-18, 15:40
^^Depending on the period it covered more of the south than that.

The Albigensian Crusade was also a northern invasion of southern Cathars or Albigensians, although they had existed in other places.
https://i.imgur.com/fUaH8Tx.png

Historically, northern France was usually much more orthodox and doctrinaire in its religion, I think. In Huguenot times, the "Catholic" League was often led by the Guise family of Lorraine.

https://goo.gl/images/dnkMN6

etrusco
16-06-18, 16:36
Exactly.....that is the reason why conflict and heresies in the south led to the raise in prominence and importance by the langue d'oil in the north and to the demise of langue d'oc in the south.

CrazyDonkey
17-06-18, 21:05
The Ghibellines, largely of noble Lombard ancestry, protected the Cathar perfecti in northern Italy.

etrusco
17-06-18, 22:20
The Ghibellines, largely of noble Lombard ancestry, protected the Cathar perfecti in northern Italy.

Yes northern Italy was another big hub for heresy back then. Milan was called by Jacques of Vitry ( a french cardinal) " fovea hereticorum" ( a pit of heretics).

Sile
17-06-18, 23:44
Yes northern Italy was another big hub for heresy back then. Milan was called by Jacques of Vitry ( a french cardinal) " fovea hereticorum" ( a pit of heretics).

these areas ( north-italy ( genoa, Milan and venice, Ferrara, Bergamo and others )) for centuries where in front of the backward religious ( follow the papacy ) states .......what north italian had then is now closer to the norm for current christian society............even the germans became far more advanced in society once they won the thirty years war and removed the link to the papacy

Angela
18-06-18, 00:24
A little less gross generalization and projection of one's biases and agendas, and a lot more reference to sources would be helpful. That way, mistakes of fact don't get made.
https://i.imgur.com/CVP2HRA.png

What the city states of Italy became is the result of the struggles of the Guelphs against the Germanic Holy Roman Emperors and their supporters, the Ghibellines. It was they who defended the liberties of the urban communes.

In the interests of full disclosure, one of my family surnames is Ghelfi. :)

etrusco
18-06-18, 00:27
these areas ( north-italy ( genoa, Milan and venice, Ferrara, Bergamo and others )) for centuries where in front of the backward religious ( follow the papacy ) states .......what north italian had then is now closer to the norm for current christian society............even the germans became far more advanced in society once they won the thirty years war and removed the link to the papacy

Yes Sile I completely agree on one point: religious idea that were present in the heretics of northern Italy ( italian waldensians, arnaldists, poor lombards) are very close to Hussites and even lutheran ones ( example the sola scriptura, rejection of the real presence of jesus in the eucharistic sacrament, rejection of purgatory, universal priesthood..even a shift toward religious freedom ). That ideas spread also in central and northern europe and influenced a lot the birth of the hussite heresy ( Luther once said: we are all hussites").
I do not agree that catholicism was a backward cultural factor in european history.... the church laid the foundation of european culture in early middle age... was the driving force in the renaissance of the west at the turning of first millennium, in the birth of science and in the promotion of parliament in middle age europe....and the list could go on and on and on and on endlessly

One of the most curious thing is that Lombardy and Veneto ( Paolo Sarpi as an example) which back then were strongly anticlerical are now the stronghold of conservative catholicism in contemporary Italy. Just to be clear I prefer the Lombardy and Veneto of today......

etrusco
18-06-18, 00:33
A little less gross generalization and projection of one's biases and agendas, and a lot more reference to sources would be helpful. That way, mistakes of fact don't get made.
https://i.imgur.com/CVP2HRA.png

What the city states of Italy became is the result of the struggles of the Guelphs against the Germanic Holy Roman Emperors and their supporters, the Ghibellines. It was they who defended the liberties of the urban communes.

In the interests of full disclosure, one of my family surnames is Ghelfi. :)


Absolutely right: the pro-church factions were at the forefront of the struggle for civic liberties...

Sile
18-06-18, 00:51
Yes Sile I completely agree on one point: religious idea that were present in the heretics of northern Italy ( italian waldensians, arnaldists, poor lombards) are very close to Hussites and even lutheran ones ( example the sola scriptura, rejection of the real presence of jesus in the eucharistic sacrament, rejection of purgatory, universal priesthood..even a shift toward religious freedom ). That ideas spread also in central and northern europe and influenced a lot the birth of the hussite heresy ( Luther once said: we are all hussites").
I do not agree that catholicism was a backward cultural factor in european history.... the church laid the foundation of european culture in early middle age... was the driving force in the renaissance of the west at the turning of first millennium, in the birth of science and in the promotion of parliament in middle age europe....and the list could go on and on and on and on endlessly

One of the most curious thing is that Lombardy and Veneto ( Paolo Sarpi as an example) which back then were strongly anticlerical are now the stronghold of conservative catholicism in contemporary Italy. Just to be clear I prefer the Lombardy and Veneto of today......

whats your thoughts on Bruno Giordano
.
Galileo Galilei and similar had freedom to test their sciences in north italy, where in papal states they could not ....this is backward cultural factor

Salento
18-06-18, 02:11
whats your thoughts on Bruno Giordano
.
Galileo Galilei and similar had freedom to test their sciences in north italy, where in papal states they could not ....this is backward cultural factor

You can also find the opposite, like in the case of Savonarola, hanged and burned in Florence, for being way too anti-secular and not open to new idea and progress.
Both Dominican friars, Giordano Bruno and Savonarola, met a similar fate, even if their Beliefs were the opposite of each other.
The Status Quo went after anybody that challenged Its authority.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_Savonarola

CrazyDonkey
18-06-18, 06:36
One of my favorite historical characters from that time was la Gran Contessa, Matilda.

Of course, with the defeat of the Ghibellines (and the burning of the remaining bonhommes), the Guelphs split into two factions, the White and the Black, with the first opposing and the second supporting the Papacy. Dante was a White Guelph. So it really depended on which way the wind was blowing.

etrusco
18-06-18, 10:17
whats your thoughts on Bruno Giordano
.
Galileo Galilei and similar had freedom to test their sciences in north italy, where in papal states they could not ....this is backward cultural factor

Even tough I do not agree with his death sentence I do remind you that secularized culture and atheist ones have killed more people in one day that christianity have in two millennia ( see nazis and commies).
Besides modern science is born inside christianity because the creationist mindset of christians made them believe that nature was not a product of irrational forces ( nature in christyanity was desacralized) but a product of an superior rationality that could be interpreted even mathematically because it was created following a rational plan. Hence the process that led in europe to the birth of scientific thinking.

Sile stop reading communist or freemasons newspapers!

Angela
18-06-18, 15:08
Gentlemen: back to the genetics of the migration period!

CrazyDonkey
18-06-18, 17:43
Well, both the Ghibelline nobility and Matilda were arguably, by paternal descent, Lombards. Dante's lineage is obscure, dating back to his great grandfather, who was an Italian crusader who was knighted (by Conrad III) and died in the Holy Land. What does the DNA of current Florentines say?

Angela
18-06-18, 18:33
^^This is not a thread for commentary about modern Italian genetics. Get back on topic or you're going to get an infraction.

Did you have to ruin the nice vibe and civility? Can't stand taking direction? What's the problem?

Sile
18-06-18, 19:18
Even tough I do not agree with his death sentence I do remind you that secularized culture and atheist ones have killed more people in one day that christianity have in two millennia ( see nazis and commies).
Besides modern science is born inside christianity because the creationist mindset of christians made them believe that nature was not a product of irrational forces ( nature in christyanity was desacralized) but a product of an superior rationality that could be interpreted even mathematically because it was created following a rational plan. Hence the process that led in europe to the birth of scientific thinking.

Sile stop reading communist or freemasons newspapers!

The last sentence is completely wrong, its an assumption, you do know 80% of assumptions are negative thoughts/directions which does lead to bullying scenarios.
I only follow full genetic equality if if means going against institutions be it religious or not , then I am against them.

As for the other, be one who is religious or not , matters zero for sciences......

etrusco
18-06-18, 21:23
The last sentence is completely wrong, its an assumption, you do know 80% of assumptions are negative thoughts/directions which does lead to bullying scenarios.
I only follow full genetic equality if if means going against institutions be it religious or not , then I am against them.

As for the other, be one who is religious or not , matters zero for sciences......


Ok no intention to bully anyone I was just referring to the main source of fake news regarding the relationship between christian faith and culture.
As for the second.... scientific thinking per se is not linked to any religious creed. But the fact that scientific revolution is born inside a christian environment and was improved by scientist that were strong believer ( Galileo, Torricelli, Newton, Alessandro Volta just to name a few) is not a coincidence as I have clearly explained.

Angela is right let's stop here....

CrazyDonkey
18-06-18, 22:23
Apologies, was not my intent. Interest was in the Lombards.

Ygorcs
19-06-18, 01:07
these areas ( north-italy ( genoa, Milan and venice, Ferrara, Bergamo and others )) for centuries where in front of the backward religious ( follow the papacy ) states .......what north italian had then is now closer to the norm for current christian society............even the germans became far more advanced in society once they won the thirty years war and removed the link to the papacy

What? The 30 Years War was massively destructive for all German-speaking areas of Central Europe, and because of the Peace of Westphalia, which finally established some principle of religious tolerance between states and their official faiths, in fact a lot of German kingdoms kept their links to the papacy. By the way, even now, much of Germany, including some of its wealthiest regions, are mostly Catholic, and in the 19th century Catholics ("papists") were some 40% of the population, a plurality, with obviously a vast majority of them concentrated in some regions.

I never heard that Germany became significantly more advanced and prosperous after the 30 Years War. In fact, not only did 1/3 of the population die, I even read that some regions of Germany only achieved the same level of economic activity 200 years later in the 19th century. Germany was impoverished in comparison to other European nations until well into the 18th century.

Ygorcs
19-06-18, 01:29
whats your thoughts on Bruno Giordano
.
Galileo Galilei and similar had freedom to test their sciences in north italy, where in papal states they could not ....this is backward cultural factor

By now (21st century), everybody should've already given up on the idea of using Bruno Giordano as an example of anti-scientific persecution by the Church (Galileo okay, that's a real example). Giordano was put on the stake and burned because of his deeply (in some cases, especially to a modern secular mind, disturbingly) mysticistic and unorthodox religious views, not because of the science he did or the scientific ideas he had. Much of what he said in terms of science was also supported by other people who didn't get into trouble with the Church, including thinkers of the religious orders. I know, the new Cosmos series tried to make a sort of "fairytale for secular atheists" using his life story, but that was more like a scientificist parable than a real narrative of history as it happened.

ToBeOrNotToBe
06-07-18, 03:58
Razib Khan's blog post on it:

https://blog.insito.me/the-fall-of-rome-and-the-wandering-of-peoples-8417bdb2cafc

Great read actually, I wonder though what the genomic contribution of the Lombards to, say, Lombardy actually is. Anybody know?