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Angela
25-06-18, 16:36
Erdogan's re-election with vastly expanded powers makes him a virtual dictator in the eyes of many. Well, 53% of the population has decided for everyone that this is the way to go. It's not the first time a dictator has been elected, and in Europe, to boot. Now they're stuck with the consequences.

See:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/24/world/europe/turkey-election-erdogan.html?smid=nytcore-ipad-share&smprod=nytcore-ipad

etrusco
26-06-18, 12:14
Erdogan's re-election with vastly expanded powers makes him a virtual dictator in the eyes of many. Well, 53% of the population has decided for everyone that this is the way to go. It's not the first time a dictator has been elected, and in Europe, to boot. Now they're stuck with the consequences.

See:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/24/world/europe/turkey-election-erdogan.html?smid=nytcore-ipad-share&smprod=nytcore-ipad

More simply in more traditional societies people prefer to be ruled by visible dictators that have visible agendas based on the preservation of traditional values( family, religion, national pride) instead of being ruled by invisible dictators with invisible agendas ( like banksters, free masons, globalists of all kind) that put forward a model of a "liquid society" where every traditional and natural bond is destroyed just to adore the new gods: the financial markets.

Jovialis
26-06-18, 13:03
More simply in more traditional societies people prefer to be ruled by visible dictators that have visible agendas based on the preservation of traditional values( family, religion, national pride) instead of being ruled by invisible dictators with invisible agendas ( like banksters, free masons, globalists of all kind) that put forward a model of a "liquid society" where every traditional and natural bond is destroyed just to adore the new gods: the financial markets.

What? People want the freedom to pursue personal wealth, power and prosperity, it has nothing to do with "wanting" to be ruled by anyone invisible, or visible. In addition to that, in the United States, the people that want to have the more traditional society are also pro-free market. The two set of values are not mutually exclusive, and have nothing to do with dictatorships.

etrusco
26-06-18, 14:20
What? People want the freedom to pursue personal wealth, power and prosperity, it has nothing to do with "wanting" to be ruled by anyone invisible, or visible.


In addition to that, in the United States, the people that want to have the more traditional society are also pro-free market. The two set of values are not mutually exclusive, and have nothing to do with dictatorships.

Well. that is true only if you are a liberal. conservative surely too pursue personal wealth and prosperity ( that is universal) but in addition and before all they prefer the preservation of traditional values like I said: family, national culture and heritage, religious values....we are not only consumers we are also citizen and son of our motherland.
As for your second sentence... that is true only in regard to home policy.....I do not think for example that conservatives in USA that voted for Trump are so enthusiast about laissez-faire on a international level. That is the reason why Trumpeconomics is going toward more protectionism and trade war.....but it is strange that I have to remind you ( you live in the USA) the basics of american politics.
As a more european kind of conservative anyway I'm not of the idea that being strongly pro-market and defense of traditional values can go hand in hand always. That does not mean that I support dictatorship. I'm only suggesting why people think that freedom is better preserved when traditional values are protected. Hence the decision by many of them to prefer an authoritarian "traditionalistic" regime instead of the more impersonal and much more pervasive dictatorship of hidden unchecked and undemocratic forces.
But if I would be a Turk I wouldn't vote for Erdogan.

Jovialis
26-06-18, 14:39
Well. that is true only if you are a liberal. conservative surely too pursue personal wealth and prosperity ( that is universal) but in addition and before all they prefer the preservation of traditional values like I said: family, national culture and heritage, religious values....we are not only consumers we are also citizen and son of our motherland.
As for your second sentence... that is true only in regard to home policy.....I do not think for example that conservatives in USA that voted for Trump are so enthusiast about laissez-faire on a international level. That is the reason why Trumpeconomics is going toward more protectionism and trade war.....but it is strange that I have to remind you ( you live in the USA) the basics of american politics.
As a more european kind of conservative anyway I'm not of the idea that being strongly pro-market and defense of traditional values can go hand in hand always. That does not mean that I support dictatorship. I'm only suggesting why people think that freedom is better preserved when traditional values are protected. Hence the decision by many of them to prefer an authoritarian "traditionalistic" regime instead of the more impersonal and much more pervasive dictatorship of hidden unchecked and undemocratic forces.
But if I would be a Turk I wouldn't vote for Erdogan.

To be conservative in the United States is to be classically liberal. That doesn't mean you reject traditional values, and national pride. Why would it? You don't know the reasons why people vote the way they do in the United States. The United States still obviously engages in free trade. Do you honestly think we're some kind of a closed-autocracy here? Trump's platform criticized globalism, but proposed the U.S. have more advantageous trade deals. Ultimately the GOP wants to use it to expand U.S. interests. The U.S. created this infrastructure after World War II, and it was primarily to capitalize on U.S. uni-polarity after the Cold War. It is a part of our hegemony; soft power (financial, and influence) and hard power (military might). All you have is an outside perspective. 65 million Republican voters aren't represented by the conspiracy theory websites that you obviously frequent.

Wheal
26-06-18, 16:19
The American political parties have become “dicatorships” in a different way. Their agendas line their own pockets with high wages and rely on the middle class to work 2 or three jobs to pay the outrageous taxes to support the growing lower class and the political class so the workers never getting ahead to provide opportunities to their families. They, the politicians, have created an evergrowing Government class who in return support them and rely on income from the government that is unequal to similar jobs in the private sector.
Many jobs were taken from the middle class and are now filled overseas in the manufacturing industry. These lower quality goods are imported and sold to the US citizens at lower prices, thus destroying more jobs and most especially the mom and pop businesses that were the backbone for our small communities.
Don’t get me wrong, the personality of POTUS rubs me the wrong way, but what he is saying is, we need to equal the playing field with equal tariffs, and grow a strong country by returning jobs in manufacturing to our country. And he is right. The fat and happy politicians are rejecting him, because it is threatening their pocketbooks and their control of the working “government” class.
And, btw, Trump was nominated because a great number of Dems all voted for him in the primary because the KNEW Hillary could beat him. But his unfettered comments are what got him elected.

etrusco
26-06-18, 16:20
To be conservative in the United States is to be classically liberal. That doesn't mean you reject traditional values, and national pride. Why would it? You don't know the reasons why people vote the way they do in the United States. The United States still obviously engages in free trade. Do you honestly think we're some kind of a closed-autocracy here? Trump's platform criticized globalism, but proposed the U.S. have more advantageous trade deals. Ultimately the GOP wants to use it to expand U.S. interests. The U.S. created this infrastructure after World War II, and it was primarily to capitalize on U.S. uni-polarity after the Cold War. It is a part of our hegemony; soft power (financial, and influence) and hard power (military might). All you have is an outside perspective. 65 million Republican voters aren't represented by the conspiracy theory websites that you obviously frequent.


It is not a matter of conspiracy theory ( insult I received from you without provoking but let give it a pass...). I did not compare Turkey with the USA.
I was just referring to a division that is becoming quite common among conservative/right wing party all over the western world. There's a more "liberal" mainstream kind of conservatism ( like for example John McCain and Jeb Bush the first names I can recall now) and a more right wing kind of conservatives like Steve Bannon or Newt Gingrich for example or the religious right. These two kind of conservatism obviously collaborate inside the government but tensions exist anyway.

To be conservative in the United States is to be classically liberal: Completely wrong. conservatives actually label they political opponents in the USA as liberal: how can they be liberal. A republican cannot be a....democrat!!!!!!!!!

As for the unilateral kind of stuff....well you basically support my point. There are Trump conservatives that want to have more advantages from trade deal because they think that the only important thing is the well being of american people ( in this case the middle class that has been destroyed by delocalization of factories and jobs) and they want to act in this way regardless the fact that by doing so they can risk to destroy the liberal pro market institutions that the USA had created after the II WWW. Hence the difference with the more mainstream kind of conservatives that prefer to preserve those institutions regardless of the well being of american workers. So they prefer to basically represent constituencies that are on the winning side of the globalization process. Hence the tensions between the two.

Here some examples of basically the same kind of division among western conservative political parties:

France: Le Pen and Fillon
Italy: Salvini and Berlusconi
England: Nigel Farage and Theresa May
Germany: ADF and Merckel

The firsts are right wing conservatives the second the more mainstream globalist kind of conservatives.

Difficult to understand? I do not think so.

Jovialis
26-06-18, 16:34
It is not a matter of conspiracy theory ( insult I received from you without provoking but let give it a pass...). I did not compare Turkey with the USA.
I was just referring to a division that is becoming quite common among conservative/right wing party all over the western world. There's a more "liberal" mainstream kind of conservatism ( like for example John McCain and Jeb Bush the first names I can recall now) and a more right wing kind of conservatives like Steve Bannon or Newt Gingrich for example or the religious right. These two kind of conservatism obviously collaborate inside the government but tensions exist anyway.

To be conservative in the United States is to be classically liberal: Completely wrong. conservatives actually label they political opponents in the USA as liberal: how can they be liberal. A republican cannot be a....democrat!!!!!!!!!

As for the unilateral kind of stuff....well you basically support my point. There are Trump conservatives that want to have more advantages from trade deal because they think that the only important thing is the well being of american people ( in this case the middle class that has been destroyed by delocalization of factories and jobs) and they want to act in this way regardless the fact that by doing so they can risk to destroy the liberal pro market institutions that the USA had created after the II WWW. Hence the difference with the more mainstream kind of conservatives that prefer to preserve those institutions regardless of the well being of american workers. So they prefer to basically represent constituencies that are on the winning side of the globalization process. Hence the tensions between the two.

Here some examples of basically the same kind of division among western conservative political parties:

France: Le Pen and Fillon
Italy: Salvini and Berlusconi
England: Nigel Farage and Theresa May
Germany: ADF and Merckel

The firsts are right wing conservatives the second the more mainstream globalist kind of conservatives.

Difficult to understand? I do not think so.

Obviously you don't understand what the definition of classical liberal, liberal, or conservative mean in the United States. But being that you're an outsider, I will give you a pass. Steve Bannon doesn't even have a position in the administration anymore. Furthermore, he was actually a johnny-come-lately to Trump's campaign. (I guess you didn't follow the election) His so-called "nationalist" agenda wasn't pursued. Because we're not going to give up our military bases and trade deals. Yes, Trump ran with the promise to bring jobs back, and impose more protectionist policies. But ultimately, the US uses the global trade system to our own advantage. It is not going anywhere, anyone with a brain, and understands US politics and power-structure knows that. Why do you think weirdos like Alex Jones say they don't like Trump anymore?

Wheal
26-06-18, 16:36
To be conservative in the United States is to be classically liberal: Completely wrong. conservatives actually label they political opponents in the USA as liberal: how can they be liberal. A republican cannot be a....democrat!!!!!!!!!
.

Etrusco, I think that most people confuse the words "liberal" and "conservative" with the words "Democratic" and "Republican". You can be fiscally conservative, ie. if you believe too much money is being spent on a particular item, and you can be "liberal" in your views about equality of all. I know more Democrats that are much less "liberal" than Republicans I know. In fact, I might say they are quite antiquated in their views of equality and fairness. And I know Republicans that are less "conservative" than those same Democrats.

Salento
26-06-18, 16:51
President Trump has canceled many Executive Orders, with the intention of forcing Congress to pass permanent laws.
This is the opposite of an authoritarian act.
He signed an executive order to implement neglected laws passed by Congress, as in the case of crossing the border illegally.
Also the opposite of an authoritarian act.
IMO Citizens vote for a candidate mainly for personal reasons, and secondarily for a collective interest.
Rhetoric without abuse of power does not make you become a dictator, especially if you can lose at the next free and fair elections.

etrusco
26-06-18, 16:54
Obviously you don't understand what the definition of classical liberal, liberal, or conservative mean in the United States. But being that you're an outsider, I will give you a pass. Steve Bannon doesn't even have a position in the administration anymore. Furthermore, he as actually a johnny-come-lately to Trump's campaign. His so-called "nationalist" agenda wasn't pursued. Because we're not going to give up our military bases and trade deals. Yes, Trump ran with the promise to bring jobs back, and impose more protectionist policies. But ultimately, the US uses the global trade system to our own advantage. It is not going anywhere, anyone with a brain, and understands US politics knows that. Why do you think weirdos like Alex Jones say they don't like Trump anymore?

You are plain wrong ( you probably mean the european definition of the terms). In all the english speaking nations being a liberal means being the opposite of a conservative. Of course you can have "liberal " republicans ( in european term a moderate conservative example: Angela Merkel).
Funny that you put in my mouth things I never wrote. Did I say that Bannon has a role in the government???? I was only taking him as an example of a non mainstream conservative. You basically made my point. Trump had an agenda that......mainstream conservatives ( and democrats/liberals alike ) do not agree with. Hence the tensions around his presidency and all the chaos in the west wing since he took office. But in your last sentence you got it right: the interest of the empire are more important that the well being of the citizens ( especially the middle class and blue collars)....so or Trump change completely his agenda or Bob Muller the special counsel will knock on his door very soon.

etrusco
26-06-18, 17:06
Etrusco, I think that most people confuse the words "liberal" and "conservative" with the words "Democratic" and "Republican". You can be fiscally conservative, ie. if you believe too much money is being spent on a particular item, and you can be "liberal" in your views about equality of all. I know more Democrats that are much less "liberal" than Republicans I know. In fact, I might say they are quite antiquated in their views of equality and fairness. And I know Republicans that are less "conservative" than those same Democrats.

Thank you Wheal for your kindness ( unlike others...). I get your point and I'm aware of it. That was probably the original difference between the two words but as for now in everyday speech the link liberal/democrat and conservative/ republican is quite the rule. I see debates on cable news ( often CNN that is not a conspiracy news outlet....right Jovialis....) and the words are always used in the sense I was referring to.

Salento
26-06-18, 17:07
@Etrusco
If Bob Mueller get involved in anything political will be FIRED immediately.
President Trump has the Legitimate POWER to Fire Mueller at will.
NOBODY elected Mueller.

Jovialis
26-06-18, 17:10
Thank you Wheal for your kindness ( unlike others...). I get your point and I'm aware of it. That was probably the original difference between the two words but as for now in everyday speech the link liberal/democrat and conservative/ republican is quite the rule. I see debates on cable news ( often CNN that is not a conspiracy news outlet....right Jovialis....) and the words are always used in the sense I was referring to.

CNN is obviously a partisan news outlet, as are most of them. Now you're putting words in my mouth. Sorry if you think I wasn't kind enough to you, you must be a real snowflake. Also, it is NOT the "rule", and I don't think you're fully aware of the difference.

etrusco
26-06-18, 17:30
@Etrusco
If Bob Mueller get involved in anything political will be FIRED immediately.
President Trump has the Legitimate POWER to Fire Mueller at will.
NOBODY elected Mueller.

If Trump fires Muller ( he has the right to do so) he will trigger an impeachment procedure.....especially if in the middle term elections the GOP will lose many seats ( which is pretty much likely).

Salento
26-06-18, 17:33
BIAS CNN has lost all credibility in the United States.
BIAS CNN International is still unchallenged. Don’t watch it, and don’t think for a second that it is broadcasting an Independent/non-partisan coverage of the News.

Salento
26-06-18, 17:53
If Trump fires Muller ( he has the right to do so) he will trigger an impeachment procedure.....especially if in the middle term elections the GOP will lose many seats ( which is pretty much likely).

Impeachment for What?
And by the way, just in case Mike Pence will become President.
This is bigger than just Trump.
Trump didn’t create the movement, he was just the loudest messenger.

etrusco
26-06-18, 18:10
Impeachment for What?
And by the way, just in case Mike Pence will become President.
This is bigger than just Trump.
Trump didn’t create the movement, he was just the loudest messenger.


Mainly because most of the people indicted by Muller are starting to "sing" and talking about wrongdoings among the Trump organization ( likely you will find something at that level of power). Do not forget that we have also the big Russiagate affair.....collusion is a serious crime ( I do not personally think that there was but what matters here is the optics). So if he fires Muller it could be seen as an obstruction of justice and things will turn badly for the Donald.......and if in november the GOP loses the election the situation on the Hill will turn badly for Trump given the fact that all the news outlets and all the powers that really "matter" are against him.
Well...if Trump get impeached and removed from office be sure Pence will "behave" and will "learn" the lesson quickly.....he doesn't look like a braveheart.

@jovialis .....

thank you for the snowflake....I appreciated that.

Salento
26-06-18, 18:22
Mainly because most of the people indicted by Muller are starting to "sing" and talking about wrongdoings among the Trump organization ( likely you will find something at that level of power). Do not forget that we have also the big Russiagate affair.....collusion is a serious crime ( I do not personally think that there was but what matters here is the optics). So if he fires Muller it could be seen as an obstruction of justice and things will turn badly for the Donald.......and if in november the GOP loses the election the situation on the Hill will turn badly for Trump given the fact that all the news outlets and all the powers that really "matter" are against him.
Well...if Trump get impeached and removed from office be sure Pence will "behave" and will "learn" the lesson quickly.....he doesn't look like a braveheart.

@jovialis .....

thank you for the snowflake....I appreciated that.
You listed Hypothetical assumptions.
You’re overestimating the Power of the Media (Remember the 2016 Election), and You’re underestimating Mike Pence (ask the people of Indiana).

Angela
26-06-18, 19:25
@Etrusco,

I'm baffled. You didn't like that I posted an article about Erdogan's re-election with sweeping powers, or you didn't like my categorization of it as giving him dictatorial powers?

Gosh. I thought only Turks supported him, and only 53% of them, I might add.

Do you really not believe that Turks will have fewer civil rights that people in western representative democracies, including the U.S. ? Could you provide some concrete examples?

Wheal
26-06-18, 19:42
@Etrusco... I am not a lawyer, but was educated and worked as a paralegal... in the United States, there is a thing in law "fruit of the poisonous tree" here's a link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree... the "evidence" is being disproven as a political tactic by the Democratic machine. Those people that have "confessed" did so most probably to protect their families... their forced confessions will also be voided. This is a tactic that I have seen the Dems use in local elections too. Destroy the image of your candidate, even if what you are saying is a blatant lie. Once the lie is out in news, the opponent loses.

etrusco
26-06-18, 23:26
@Etrusco,

I'm baffled. You didn't like that I posted an article about Erdogan's re-election with sweeping powers, or you didn't like my categorization of it as giving him dictatorial powers?

Gosh. I thought only Turks supported him, and only 53% of them, I might add.

Do you really not believe that Turks will have fewer civil rights that people in western representative democracies, including the U.S. ? Could you provide some concrete examples?

I'm not denying he's a dictator I only warned everybody about the fact that in our western world we are facing the risk of a more subtle invisible kind of totalitarianism. Like the one that is pushed forward by a bunch of families that own a big stake of world wealth, that control the media, the financial system and that are eroding every kind of values on which our civilization has been built. Destruction of family values ( abortion, divorce, gay marriage ) euthanasia. An economic system that is destroying the middle class ( which is the backbone of every democratic system) financial markets out of control with politicians that have to obey to the " markets" otherwise they must resign ( maybe in the USA you do not feel this problem as much as we do in Europe where regardless who win an election the agenda must be that of the big banks and big business). So the real distance between Turkey and western style oligarchy is not that much. Only because people are starting to open their eyes in recent time globalist have had their defeats.

etrusco
26-06-18, 23:32
@Etrusco... I am not a lawyer, but was educated and worked as a paralegal... in the United States, there is a thing in law "fruit of the poisonous tree" here's a link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree... the "evidence" is being disproven as a political tactic by the Democratic machine. Those people that have "confessed" did so most probably to protect their families... their forced confessions will also be voided. This is a tactic that I have seen the Dems use in local elections too. Destroy the image of your candidate, even if what you are saying is a blatant lie. Once the lie is out in news, the opponent loses.

Completely agree with you on everything. But I think Muller and his cronies are not that dumb. They will start with some "real" crime that as I said is not difficult to find in Trump business history ( bribes to the mob, tax evasion stuff like that) and then with the help of the fake news complex they will spin it as it looks like an unforgivable crime. Then Trump that sometimes acts like he's crazy will fire Muller and will fall into the "perfect trap".....

Salento
27-06-18, 00:32
@Etrusco
Mueller is conflicted.
Mueller is Compromised.
Mueller’s team is all Democrat.
Mueller traveled with U.S. Uranium to Russia.
Mueller was given his position after Trump interviewed him for FBI Director and was rejected.
Mueller aggressive tactics are being questioned for abuse.
“America First” will continue, with or without Trump.
Trumpism won’t go away regardless.
Anche Noi Abbiamo Eletto Trump, e siamo Potenti, Numerosi, e Incazzati.

http://i.imgur.com/jWfK4zw.jpg

Angela
27-06-18, 00:56
Gentlemen (I exempt the lady since she probably knows this), Presidents of the U.S. are immune from prosecution for "ordinary" crimes during their tenure. That also wasn't his brief.

Impeachment is another thing. However, so far I don't see anything rising to that level.

Yetos
27-06-18, 01:36
hm

Everyone of us learned at elementary school the word Democracy
some of us living in Europe also know the term Presidential, parliamental, constitutional monarchy, even people's republic (ex-communistic)

later at high school we learned one term that was vital for democracy OSTRACISM EΞΟΣΤΡΑΚΙΣΜΟΣ

most of our democracies, are not democracies, but time limited constitunional monarchies

since NO OSTRACISM, then NO DEMOCRACY.

Salento
27-06-18, 03:05
hm

Everyone of us learned at elementary school the word Democracy
some of us living in Europe also know the term Presidential, parliamental, constitutional monarchy, even people's republic (ex-communistic)

later at high school we learned one term that was vital for democracy OSTRACISM EΞΟΣΤΡΑΚΙΣΜΟΣ

most of our democracies, are not democracies, but time limited constitunional monarchies

since NO OSTRACISM, then NO DEMOCRACY.


In a mainstream form of Government, a Political Opponent is not an Enemy. Or at least shouldn’t be.
Win or lose we should respect and tolerate each-other.
It’s tempting to retaliate when the losers are the one trying to Ostracize the winners. Here is the latest message from Trump to his supporters pointing out just that: the losers ostracizing the winners. Win or lose Ostracism is wrong imho. :)

.......... “Harassment
...........,
Sarah Huckabee Sanders was kicked out of a restaurant.

Kirstjen Nielsen was harassed in her own home.

Homeland Security staffers have been warned of “increased threats” from the open borders mob.

...And now Democrat Maxine Waters is calling for MORE HARASSMENT of the Silent Majority. The Left is trying to bully and buy their way back into power. Not on my watch. I will always stand up for you.” ........


10294

Yetos
27-06-18, 07:27
both Athens and Sparta had their own democracies,

both had Ostracism or Apelasis

that is why their democracies stayed strong even when the state lost wars fortune or occupied,

the power of ostracism to Rome was given to the monarch
if was given to people, then Rome might not had an inner collapse.

ostracism is also a tool by the ruler,

it is the last and ultimate weapon of the people,
so not the ruller to become tyrrant.

let a modern European democracy the ability to ostracism,
1-5 times per year according their parliamental members, for 2-10 years,
then less decadense, corruption etc etc.

he was a democracy master,
he also was politicain,
he stayed in History,
cause he knew the meaning of ostracism.

http://www.greekencyclopedia.com/static/images/image0000198A.jpg


the evidence

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/AGMA_Ostrakon_Aristide.jpg/220px-AGMA_Ostrakon_Aristide.jpg



it is time to ostracism golden boys, and fortune hunters from our political lifes,

either our democracies, will suffer an inner collapse.

Salento
27-06-18, 08:18
@Yetos I’m Ok with Term Limits.
I’m Not OK for Banishment and Deportation of the opposition.
If I misunderstood “Apelasis” disregard my second paragraph. :)

XipeTotek
27-06-18, 11:50
When people stop touch other countries works? when people don't touch and invade iraq, vietnam, syria for democracy lies. this is better problems than dictators.

i am an atheist and living peaceful and good in turkey.

nobody wanna touch me and kill me.

erdogan doing good stuff about democracy.

before years kurdish people not speaking their own language. but today they can.

before years girls dont take hijab in university. but today they can.

only i dont accept block for wikipedia or something.

erdoğan and akp doing all of this stuff. but europe/usa dont wanna see this.

they only think about his own interests.

middle eastern only a oil/money area for them.

they dont care anything humanity or democracy for us i think. (we know them what they did in history lol)

if you real care about people, help that all innocent peoples help africa, help native americans (they living so bad in america, and mr trump create a wall for their descendants now.) and help middle easterns and take more and more refugees from syria.

we open the door all of them.

i think we are more democratic and humanist for the world.

dont believe the propaganda of sionists/imperialist

Angela
27-06-18, 13:24
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/05/40/41/054041eb0ab5d6562b61eda250cbb95f.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DRHOLfnD-uA/UGNLD36zJQI/AAAAAAAAA9M/RDsSp84I2Bg/s1600/ataturk+2.jpg


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8n15DHEK1I4/UzAsTFzq2vI/AAAAAAAAGD0/k2q7lzx9JgY/s1600/Mustafa-Kemal-Ataturk-Quotes-4.jpg

https://thisisfeminism.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/oppression.jpg

Some people break out of their chains. Some people embrace them.

OkTex
27-06-18, 14:20
Short and sweet...Trump was elected as a Populist... neither mainstream “Republicans” nor Democrats nor Socialists supported him. As a lifelong “Republican” I see folks like McCain & Bush as Republican in Name Only. In other words mainstream politicians are like worms in DC, difficult to separate and put on the hook! Trump speaks plainly to issues that matter to the middle class (now that is a topic for another thread-just who is the American Middle Class?) and does what he says he will do...what a novel concept!!!

Yetos
27-06-18, 17:21
@Yetos I’m Ok with Term Limits.
I’m Not OK for Banishment and Deportation of the opposition.
If I misunderstood “Apelasis” disregard my second paragraph. :)

Ostracism happened limited times per year,

in light form was just forbiden to talk and take part to κοινα to commons, consider forbid to take part in political life for 2-4 years,
in the hard form it is exile, or a narrow acces area, guarded but not prisoned, for time from 2 years to at least 1 presidential or parliamental time,
different degrees to a number according the population, or parliament etc etc

people should choose from a common list,
and not by different lists,
it is usefull when the elected goverment thinks, or tries to 'cross the Rubicon' of descent political life.

do not warry,
the idea is an idea,

at Turkey Demirtas party was elected although he was in prison,
and above the very 'tall' step of 10% which leads to parliament.

We vote the ideas and the 'healthy minds' and what is correct by our opininion for us and state,
not the persons,
On contradictory we must 'punish' the persons who pass the meter,
or ambush the state, or earn by politics when state is driven to pay.
as demagogues, preverts, money vultures, etc.

without Ostracism, most democracies are doomed.

Rome started as Sparta. Glory to the defender, and equal rights to Romans. Senatum
but there were eras that a politician earn more than the whole state,
so he could buy votes by a bucket of grain.
that led to absolute monarchy,
no one must earn more than emperror,
or the one who gains most becomes emperror

Salento think,
the latest episode after the Italian elections,
Should someone lost his powers and replaced, or Not?

Giving Ostracism to the people,
we give true power to the people.

Alcuin
28-06-18, 02:04
Erdogan tells Turks what they want to hear, appealing to their Islamist and Europhobic tendencies (almost ubiquitous outside of a few Western Turkish cities).

Frankly I'm surprised it was as little as 53%.

Yetos
28-06-18, 07:14
I would not say so,

yes he is the winner,
he surely has a piece above 40%
but 53% is biased
evidences,

https://twitter.com/sendika_org/status/1010892903990857730

the war of free refrigators, onions, and potatoes,

XipeTotek
28-06-18, 12:29
I would not say so,

yes he is the winner,
he surely has a piece above 40%
but 53% is biased
evidences,

https://twitter.com/sendika_org/status/1010892903990857730

the war of free refrigators, onions, and potatoes,

they are kurdish tribes(aşiret). one man can voted for all own tribe members.(clan)

its absurd but yes

Yetos
28-06-18, 18:07
they are kurdish tribes(aşiret). one man can voted for all own tribe members.(clan)

its absurd but yes

what?

I have seen such videos in 3 areas,

a man can vote for another man?
also a man can vote as woman?

What kind of election is this?

I vote so many times, as my clan members?

come on,

not even in medieval or primitive tribes
you want me to believe that in Turkey of 2020,
one man can vote more than one time?

AND WHAT THE VOTE IS OPEN? AND NOT BEHIND THE CURTAIN?
VOTE IS PERSONAL AND BEHIND THE CURTAIN.
WHY IN THE VIDEOS IS OPEN?

to be honest,
I believe Erdogan is the winner,
he surely has above 40%
but his 53% is biased and cheating.
the most possible is to have with his coalition around 47-48%

Jovialis
28-06-18, 22:53
Hmmm, I wonder who is the user that the lurker sock account "kokki" belongs to? Thankfully his down voting power is completely impotent.

Boreas
29-06-18, 04:39
what?

I have seen such videos in 3 areas,

a man can vote for another man?
also a man can vote as woman?

What kind of election is this?

I vote so many times, as my clan members?

come on,

not even in medieval or primitive tribes
you want me to believe that in Turkey of 2020,
one man can vote more than one time?

AND WHAT THE VOTE IS OPEN? AND NOT BEHIND THE CURTAIN?
VOTE IS PERSONAL AND BEHIND THE CURTAIN.
WHY IN THE VIDEOS IS OPEN?

to be honest,
I believe Erdogan is the winner,
he surely has above 40%
but his 53% is biased and cheating.
the most possible is to have with his coalition around 47-48%

Erdogan's party took 42% for parliment election
53% result of his election coalition for presidency with MHP(which got 11% for parliment, but not have candicate for president).

AGIT has already gave own report and there is nothing. These are tiny problems.

Many problem was during the election camping. Erdogan used all state power.
State TV worked for Erdogan also there is no mainstream media, now.

XipeTotek
29-06-18, 13:24
what?

I have seen such videos in 3 areas,

a man can vote for another man?
also a man can vote as woman?

What kind of election is this?

I vote so many times, as my clan members?

come on,

not even in medieval or primitive tribes
you want me to believe that in Turkey of 2020,
one man can vote more than one time?

AND WHAT THE VOTE IS OPEN? AND NOT BEHIND THE CURTAIN?
VOTE IS PERSONAL AND BEHIND THE CURTAIN.
WHY IN THE VIDEOS IS OPEN?

to be honest,
I believe Erdogan is the winner,
he surely has above 40%
but his 53% is biased and cheating.
the most possible is to have with his coalition around 47-48%

thats all could be fake. i dont know. because some people using like this events in turkey for the chaos

they can doing this after record ourselfs like this.

but for this video this is look like a tribes voted for me

bicicleur
30-06-18, 18:35
Erdogan became popular because he claimes to be responsable for the economic recovery of Turkey.
Instead he destroyed it.
Obviously the Turks are to late to realise that.
They'll have to pay the price for that when it will become all to obvious.

Piro Ilir
04-07-18, 16:53
When people stop touch other countries works? when people don't touch and invade iraq, vietnam, syria for democracy lies. this is better problems than dictators.

i am an atheist and living peaceful and good in turkey.

nobody wanna touch me and kill me.

erdogan doing good stuff about democracy.

before years kurdish people not speaking their own language. but today they can.

before years girls dont take hijab in university. but today they can.

only i dont accept block for wikipedia or something.

erdoğan and akp doing all of this stuff. but europe/usa dont wanna see this.

they only think about his own interests.

middle eastern only a oil/money area for them.

they dont care anything humanity or democracy for us i think. (we know them what they did in history lol)

if you real care about people, help that all innocent peoples help africa, help native americans (they living so bad in america, and mr trump create a wall for their descendants now.) and help middle easterns and take more and more refugees from syria.

we open the door all of them.

i think we are more democratic and humanist for the world.

dont believe the propaganda of sionists/imperialist

Native Americans pay zero taxes. No one buys anymore this anti western propaganda. Your eastern civilization don't produce anything except hatred.

Piro Ilir
04-07-18, 16:55
And your dictator isn't only a dictator, but even the most ridiculous among them. At least Putin doesn't look ridiculous

Piro Ilir
04-07-18, 16:59
Erdogan's re-election with vastly expanded powers makes him a virtual dictator in the eyes of many. Well, 53% of the population has decided for everyone that this is the way to go. It's not the first time a dictator has been elected, and in Europe, to boot. Now they're stuck with the consequences.
See:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/24/world/europe/turkey-election-erdogan.html?smid=nytcore-ipad-share&smprod=nytcore-ipad
So you start a thread about Turkey, while you aren't living here in southeast Europe.
Since when Erdogan is elected!! No one elected him there. Everything there is rigged and controlled by this bloodthirsty dictator. They had not elections there. Zero absolute. They have a law there , that if you say anything against the president, police should arrest you because of insulting the president.

Piro Ilir
04-07-18, 17:02
More simply in more traditional societies people prefer to be ruled by visible dictators that have visible agendas based on the preservation of traditional values( family, religion, national pride) instead of being ruled by invisible dictators with invisible agendas ( like banksters, free masons, globalists of all kind) that put forward a model of a "liquid society" where every traditional and natural bond is destroyed just to adore the new gods: the financial markets.

Since year now, Turkey is under dictatorial rule. They had no elections there. Hence your theory has no relevance in Turkey

Piro Ilir
04-07-18, 17:07
Well. that is true only if you are a liberal. conservative surely too pursue personal wealth and prosperity ( that is universal) but in addition and before all they prefer the preservation of traditional values like I said: family, national culture and heritage, religious values....we are not only consumers we are also citizen and son of our motherland.
As for your second sentence... that is true only in regard to home policy.....I do not think for example that conservatives in USA that voted for Trump are so enthusiast about laissez-faire on a international level. That is the reason why Trumpeconomics is going toward more protectionism and trade war.....but it is strange that I have to remind you ( you live in the USA) the basics of american politics.
As a more european kind of conservative anyway I'm not of the idea that being strongly pro-market and defense of traditional values can go hand in hand always. That does not mean that I support dictatorship. I'm only suggesting why people think that freedom is better preserved when traditional values are protected. Hence the decision by many of them to prefer an authoritarian "traditionalistic" regime instead of the more impersonal and much more pervasive dictatorship of hidden unchecked and undemocratic forces.
But if I would be a Turk I wouldn't vote for Erdogan.

The reason one why Trump has won, it's ;making USA great again. It has nothing to do with traditionalism

Piro Ilir
04-07-18, 17:12
President Trump has canceled many Executive Orders, with the intention of forcing Congress to pass permanent laws.
This is the opposite of an authoritarian act.
He signed an executive order to implement neglected laws passed by Congress, as in the case of crossing the border illegally.
Also the opposite of an authoritarian act.
IMO Citizens vote for a candidate mainly for personal reasons, and secondarily for a collective interest.
Rhetoric without abuse of power does not make you become a dictator, especially if you can lose at the next free and fair elections.

Very correct. While Erdogan is abusing with power. You can't even say anything against , because that's against the law

Piro Ilir
04-07-18, 17:27
I would not say so,

yes he is the winner,
he surely has a piece above 40%
but 53% is biased
evidences,

https://twitter.com/sendika_org/status/1010892903990857730

the war of free refrigators, onions, and potatoes,

Most of you guys don't know how it works in a dictatorial state. Everything there is rigged by Erdogan.

Expredel
04-07-18, 17:30
Most European nations are dictatorships without freedom of speech, and I predict we'll see the end of freedom of speech in the USA around 2028. It's laughable to call Trump a dictator while the 1st amendment stands firm. In fact, Trump would have been prosecuted for his political statements in most European nations.

Piro Ilir
04-07-18, 17:33
Erdogan became popular because he claimes to be responsable for the economic recovery of Turkey.
Instead he destroyed it.
Obviously the Turks are to late to realise that.
They'll have to pay the price for that when it will become all to obvious.

There was a certain level of economy recover, but it was at the beginning of Erdogan's leadership when he was prime minister

Angela
04-07-18, 17:49
I really wish people would stop with "the Turks this", "the Turks that", as if they are all rabid Erdogan supporters. Given how rigged the voting probably was, the no vote was probably even higher than 47%.

Piro Ilir
05-07-18, 14:34
The only responsibility of Turks about this situation, is that they aren't rebelling against Erdogan, and aren't rioting as well.

Angela
05-07-18, 16:16
^^Oh, you mean like the people in Albania and the rest of the Balkans rebelled against their own dictatorial rulers?

Piro Ilir
11-07-18, 17:56
^^Oh, you mean like the people in Albania and the rest of the Balkans rebelled against their own dictatorial rulers?

Angela, yes we did it. We rebelled against Enver Hoxha, Nicolae Ceaușescu, Milosevic and other minor dictators. Some of us died during these riots. Democracy should be protected all the time. Communism is one of the most vicious dictatorships in human history. You are lucky it stayed out of north America

Anyway, I think sooner or later Erdogan will fell down. Something kin to Ghedafi or Saddam.

Angela
11-07-18, 18:14
Angela, yes we did it. We rebelled against Enver Hoxha, Nicolae Ceaușescu, Milosevic and other minor dictators. Some of us died during these riots. Democracy should be protected all the time. Communism is one of the most vicious dictatorships in human history. You are lucky it stayed out of north America

Anyway, I think sooner or later Erdogan will fell down. Something kin to Ghedafi or Saddam.


I was there in Ceaucescu’s Romania and know a fair number of refugees from that period. It took a long time and conditions of a completely different order of magnitude for people to rebel. Believe me, I’m not casting stones. It’s easy to be brave when it’s not your life on the line.

I just think it’s unfair to Turks to compare their situation now with the conditions under certain Balkan dictators. Things may change, of course.

bicicleur
11-07-18, 19:11
I was in Roumenia and Bucharest early 1995, more than 5 years after Ceaucescu was lynched, and the scarfs were still visible.
The country was exhausted and had come to a complete standstill.
If I had come one year earlier, I'd had to bring my own food with me, because food was still rationed then.
It made a big impression on me, but I also got very lucky.
I missed my plane, TAROM flight 371 to Brussels, which crashed short after take-off. The crew and all passengers died.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAROM_Flight_371

I agree it is much easier for Turks to rebel against Erdogan than to those kind of dictators.
53 % of Turks still voted for him and firmly believe in him.
Sorry for my bluntness, but it is not fear that stops those 53 % from rebelling, it is stupidity.

XipeTotek
15-07-18, 08:59
i really dont believe erdoğan is a dictator. this is american and european propaganda. i don't believe america and european union think about good thinks for our peoples. they are support terrorist organizations for our country.

we are just muslims and strangers for europeans. and i think they want back their constantinople.

yes erdoğan doing block wikipedia. and send to jail some traitor journalists.

but they are not only journalists they like jullian assange. they are traitor to own country.

its a crime everywhere on the world.

also erdoğan doing good things about kurdish people. they are free for speaking kurdish today. they have television channels.

but you cant speak kurdish before than erdoğan.

i can't believe europe and usa how lie and bad propaganda about erdoğan.

i think thats all project for the new world order. middle eastern oil, kurdistan, big israel, and destroy the turkey and all muslim countries.

i dont believe saddam, kaddafi or others tottaly bad peoples and dictators clearly. if peoples want and like them who care?

maybe they are just puppets for the destroy middle eastern countries.

but you never understand this. i am sure you guys also believe el kaide-isis-9/11 events lol.

i think so many people under a brainwashing with american/european media

i and so many peoples in the world clealry see that dirty game. also i am atheist and not voted for erdoğan.

i must be say again you guys are totally under in the brainwashing for another areas of the world.

i really can say erdoğan is most democratic leader of the turkey republic history. (freedom for kurds, freedom for join unviersity with hijab. thats all revolution for the turkey.)

Boreas
15-07-18, 10:00
i really dont believe erdoğan is a dictator. this is american and european propaganda. i don't believe america and european union think about good thinks for our peoples. they are support terrorist organizations for our country.

we are just muslims and strangers for europeans. and i think they want back their constantinople.

yes erdoğan doing block wikipedia. and send to jail some traitor journalists.

but they are not only journalists they like jullian assange. they are traitor to own country.

its a crime everywhere on the world.

also erdoğan doing good things about kurdish people. they are free for speaking kurdish today. they have television channels.

but you cant speak kurdish before than erdoğan.

i can't believe europe and usa how lie and bad propaganda about erdoğan.

i think thats all project for the new world order. middle eastern oil, kurdistan, big israel, and destroy the turkey and all muslim countries.

i dont believe saddam, kaddafi or others tottaly bad peoples and dictators clearly. if peoples want and like them who care?

maybe they are just puppets for the destroy middle eastern countries.

but you never understand this. i am sure you guys also believe el kaide-isis-9/11 events lol.

i think so many people under a brainwashing with american/european media

i and so many peoples in the world clealry see that dirty game. also i am atheist and not voted for erdoğan.

i must be say again you guys are totally under in the brainwashing for another areas of the world.

i really can say erdoğan is most democratic leader of the turkey republic history. (freedom for kurds, freedom for join unviersity with hijab. thats all revolution for the turkey.)

Are you a JOKE !!!

Piro Ilir
15-07-18, 21:03
I was there in Ceaucescu’s Romania and know a fair number of refugees from that period. It took a long time and conditions of a completely different order of magnitude for people to rebel. Believe me, I’m not casting stones. It’s easy to be brave when it’s not your life on the line.

I just think it’s unfair to Turks to compare their situation now with the conditions under certain Balkan dictators. Things may change, of course.

I do agree , it's too hard to rebel against dictatorships. It may cost our lives. However, the kind of communist dictatorships we had was too harsh compared with this Erdogan's dictatorial rule. I think Turkish people have better chances to rebel against Erdogan today.
I spent my childhood in a communist regime, and I remember well when I couldn't had even my preferred haircut because it was against the communist discipline. Let alone other things like saying your opinion in public. Everything was forbidden. You couldn't kiss even your wife in public.

Personally , I would rebel against any dictator, but certainly can't do it alone.

Piro Ilir
15-07-18, 21:14
i really dont believe erdoğan is a dictator. this is american and european propaganda. i don't believe america and european union think about good thinks for our peoples. they are support terrorist organizations for our country.

we are just muslims and strangers for europeans. and i think they want back their constantinople.

yes erdoğan doing block wikipedia. and send to jail some traitor journalists.

but they are not only journalists they like jullian assange. they are traitor to own country.

its a crime everywhere on the world.

also erdoğan doing good things about kurdish people. they are free for speaking kurdish today. they have television channels.

but you cant speak kurdish before than erdoğan.

i can't believe europe and usa how lie and bad propaganda about erdoğan.

i think thats all project for the new world order. middle eastern oil, kurdistan, big israel, and destroy the turkey and all muslim countries.

i dont believe saddam, kaddafi or others tottaly bad peoples and dictators clearly. if peoples want and like them who care?

maybe they are just puppets for the destroy middle eastern countries.

but you never understand this. i am sure you guys also believe el kaide-isis-9/11 events lol.

i think so many people under a brainwashing with american/european media

i and so many peoples in the world clealry see that dirty game. also i am atheist and not voted for erdoğan.

i must be say again you guys are totally under in the brainwashing for another areas of the world.

i really can say erdoğan is most democratic leader of the turkey republic history. (freedom for kurds, freedom for join unviersity with hijab. thats all revolution for the turkey.)

No one want to destroy Muslim countries. They are already destroyed and a mess , and a disgrace for humanity.

Turkey doesn't recognize the Kurdish minority , despite there are millions of ethnic Kurds dwelling within Turkey. (Though this was even before Erdogan)

If I travel in Turkey, and I would say anything against the president , police has the right by law to arrest me. There's against the law to say anything impolite to Erdogan.

Piro Ilir
15-07-18, 21:25
I was in Roumenia and Bucharest early 1995, more than 5 years after Ceaucescu was lynched, and the scarfs were still visible.
The country was exhausted and had come to a complete standstill.
If I had come one year earlier, I'd had to bring my own food with me, because food was still rationed then.
It made a big impression on me, but I also got very lucky.
I missed my plane, TAROM flight 371 to Brussels, which crashed short after take-off. The crew and all passengers died.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAROM_Flight_371
I agree it is much easier for Turks to rebel against Erdogan than to those kind of dictators.
53 % of Turks still voted for him and firmly believe in him.
Sorry for my bluntness, but it is not fear that stops those 53 % from rebelling, it is stupidity.
10337
Albania, 1991. Communism ended only in December 1990.
10338


53 % of people voting for him it's a big lie. Sorry saying it. Seems that you don't know how it works in dictatorships. The elections are rigged. The same as they are in Russia, Syria etc .
It was really sad seeing Erdogan at the flanks of Trump, Merkel, or Teresa May during the NATOs meeting.

Angela
15-07-18, 21:47
I do agree , it's too hard to rebel against dictatorships. It may cost our lives. However, the kind of communist dictatorships we had was too harsh compared with this Erdogan's dictatorial rule. I think Turkish people have better chances to rebel against Erdogan today.
I spent my childhood in a communist regime, and I remember well when I couldn't had even my preferred haircut because it was against the communist discipline. Let alone other things like saying your opinion in public. Everything was forbidden. You couldn't kiss even your wife in public.

Personally , I would rebel against any dictator, but certainly can't do it alone.

The best time to rebel against a dictatorship is when it isn't yet so entrenched, which is also the time when the rule isn't so extreme, i.e. as now in Erdogan's Turkey. However, when it isn't so entrenched and horrific is just when the majority of people, with family, dependents, with no training in warfare or even arms, think, well, this isn't so bad. He would never impose really terrible conditions. Why risk my life and the lives of my wife and children?

It's a situation which has played out again and again, in many, many countries. It happened in Italy too from all the stories I've been told about when Mussolini came to power. It happened without most people even being aware of what had happened or understanding its significance. Then, in the beginning people approved of a lot of the things he was doing: public works, trains running on time, improvements to infrastructure, less unemployment, more prosperity, foreign nations seeming to respect Italy more. Who cared if children had to join Fascist groups, if you had to join the party to get a job? What if some journalists, socialists, communists were exiled to remote islands or villages in the south? As for loudmouths, being beaten up and having to swallow castor oil was a small punishment. As for Ethiopians, who cared if they were getting bombed?

No, Italians weren't sent to concentration camps, and there weren't that many Matteottis who were killed, but they were dragged into a war for which they were woefully unprepared, for all Mussolini's chest beating, and shackled to an "ally" they deservedly didn't trust to fight a war that most of them didn't want. The ultimate destruction of life, cities, infrastructure, our beloved cultural monuments, our very earth was horrific. When people did want to rebel, they couldn't do it until they got help from Britain because the first thing the fascists did was to confiscate all arms.

If we don't learn from things like this, we're doomed to repeat them. What we should also learn is to cast no stones unless you've walked in those shoes.

There's a great movie about the day Hitler came to celebrate with Mussolini. It's called " A Special Day" with Sophia Loren and Marcello Mastroianni, which is probably the best movie they ever made together. They went after all sorts of undesirables, even if in Italy they didn't kill them as they did in Germany. It used to be available for free on youtube, but unfortunately now you have to pay 2.99. I'm sure it's available for free somewhere, though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KloWrqcHAF0&list=PL912jrTJyKR3r4gjFJDxL6Ed wrqKt_fbG&index=2


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KloWrqcHAF0&list=PL912jrTJyKR3r4gjFJDxL6Ed wrqKt_fbG&index=2

Alcuin
15-07-18, 22:23
If I travel in Turkey, and I would say anything against the president , police has the right by law to arrest me

I thought that only applied to insults against Ataturk?

Let's be honest, Turkey is an Islamist hell where even the 'liberal' minority worship a man who made his name fighting against the West. Anatolia has an interesting history, but Turkey is merely a backwards rump state of the Ottoman Empire, which itself did little more than destroy superior civilisations and then ape them from a Muslim perspective. Turks even have a bad name in Albania and Bosnia, and are detested by the Arabs whose religion they adhere to.

It's a really bizarre place.