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Angela
03-07-18, 20:03
Goodness knows that I've been a proponent for better integration of immigrants from third world countries, but this sounds draconian. I could never support this: taking children away from their parents for 25 hours a week, mandatory instruction in "Christmas and Easter", etc.

Is this true, and if it is, would the EU have any say?

See:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghettos.html

bicicleur
03-07-18, 20:50
I don't know, but from related articles from the same paper :

The rapid ascent of populists in Italy — the birthplace of Fascism, a founding member of the European Union, and the bloc’s fourth-largest economy — shattered the nation’s decades-old party system.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/23/world/europe/italy-government-conte-mattarella-five-star-lega.html?action=click&module=RelatedCoverage&pgtype=Article&region=Footer

I don't know either, but maybe you can frame this one.

I think they like to blow things out of proportion.

davef
03-07-18, 21:13
Children of illegal immigrants here are being separated from their parents which is a solution that is just cruel, evil and inhumane as well as nonsensical. What on earth could separating children from their parents possibly solve?

Anyone who supports something like this is wicked.

Edit: got 3 shiny downvotes, how swell! I think I offended certain people who support children being locked away for having illegal immigrant parents!

Salento
03-07-18, 21:47
I don't know, but from related articles from the same paper :

The rapid ascent of populists in Italy — the birthplace of Fascism, a founding member of the European Union, and the bloc’s fourth-largest economy — shattered the nation’s decades-old party system.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/23/world/europe/italy-government-conte-mattarella-five-star-lega.html?action=click&module=RelatedCoverage&pgtype=Article&region=Footer

I don't know either, but maybe you can frame this one.

I think they like to blow things out of proportion.

Now you know too,
It’s about Denmark, so stick with it.
Don’t deflect the thread by naming other Countries.
Naming and linking that “unrelated OLD article” is gratuitous and uncalled for.

Angela
03-07-18, 21:56
I don't know, but from related articles from the same paper :

The rapid ascent of populists in Italy — the birthplace of Fascism, a founding member of the European Union, and the bloc’s fourth-largest economy — shattered the nation’s decades-old party system.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/23/world/europe/italy-government-conte-mattarella-five-star-lega.html?action=click&module=RelatedCoverage&pgtype=Article&region=Footer

I don't know either, but maybe you can frame this one.

I think they like to blow things out of proportion.

I agree with Salento. This comment is indeed totally uncalled for. What is happening to you, Bicicleur? This has nothing to do with Italy or with any country not wanting any more immigrants from third world countries.

As for Lega Nord, if you think I ever voted for them, or ever supported their racist comments, you haven't been paying attention.

This thread is about one law, reported on by the New York Times, not me. Let's keep to the topic.

I don't care what country passed such a law. If it is as reported I'm totally against it. You can't take people's children from them against their will for "acculturation" courses. It smacks of the old American practice of taking American Indian children from their parents and towns and sending them to boarding schools where they could only speak English and couldn't practice any of their native culture. That was horrible and disgusting too.

Salento
03-07-18, 22:24
Children of illegal immigrants here are being separated from their parents which is a solution that is just cruel, evil and inhumane as well as nonsensical. What on earth could separating children from their parents possibly solve?

Anyone who supports something like this is wicked.

In the US is not longer happening.
Nobody complained when Obama was doing it.
The “Temporary” Separation applied only to the people that Crossed the Border illegally, and not to the people that presented themselves at the ports of entry.
Don’t you want to know if the Parents and children are Legit? What if some of this children were kidnapped, and the real parents are in Agony?
Also there’s no need to Cross the Border Illegally, and if they do, what are they Hiding? They can present themselves at any Port of Entry located at the Border and ask for Asylum.
I don’t like to see children suffering either.

Angela
03-07-18, 22:37
They might be able to get away with some of it, since it's tied to getting welfare benefits, not an out and out mandate.

"Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age of six."

What if some of the families in these designated "ghetto" areas are of European descent? Does it apply to them too?

Well, I guess some things went too far even for these Parliamentarians.

"Some proposals have been rejected as too radical, like one from the far-right Danish People’s Party (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/20/world/europe/rise-of-far-right-party-in-denmark-reflects-europes-unease.html) that would confine “ghetto children” to their homes after 8 p.m. (Challenged on how this would be enforced, Martin Henriksen, the chairman of Parliament’s integration committee, suggested in earnest that young people in these areas could be fitted with electronic ankle bracelets (https://www.bt.dk/politik/nyt-df-forslag-saet-fodlaenke-paa-ghetto-boern?referrer=RSS).)"

I'm not so much shocked at the proposals as that it's taking place in a Scandinavian country. I just didn't expect it.

Honestly, if it is getting this bad in these countries, these people should just go back to their country of origin. The past might be prelude to the future.

bicicleur
03-07-18, 22:39
I agree with Salento. This comment is indeed totally uncalled for. What is happening to you, Bicicleur? This has nothing to do with Italy or with any country not wanting any more immigrants from third world countries.
As for Lega Nord, if you think I ever voted for them, or ever supported their racist comments, you haven't been paying attention.
This thread is about one law, reported on by the New York Times, not me. Let's keep to the topic.
I don't care what country passed such a law. If it is as reported I'm totally against it. You can't take people's children from them against their will for "acculturation" courses. It smacks of the old American practice of taking American Indian children from their parents and towns and sending them to boarding schools where they could only speak English and couldn't practice any of their native culture. That was horrible and disgusting too.
Did you read the paper?
There is no such a law.
It is a law proposal, and the paper only highlights certain aspects of the proposal.
The rest of the paper are comments from several people of the street.
I simply question the journalistic seriousness, New York Times or not.
I don't think it helps anybody outside Denmark in understanding the whole discussion in Denmark.

Angela
03-07-18, 22:50
Did you read the paper?
There is no such a law.
It is a law proposal, and the paper only highlights certain aspects of the proposal.
The rest of the paper are comments from several people of the street.
I simply question the journalistic seriousness, New York Times or not.
I don't think it helps anybody outside Denmark in understanding the whole discussion in Denmark.

I did, Bicicleur.

This is what I saw:

"That tough approach is embodied in the “ghetto package.” Of 22 proposals presented by the government in early March, most have been agreed upon by a parliamentary majority, and more will be subject to a vote in the fall."

If they are agreed upon by a parliamentary majority, are they not law?

They do list some that are proposed but not voted upon, like the following:

" One measure under consideration would allow courts to double the punishment (https://www.thelocal.dk/20180226/danish-government-wants-double-punishments-for-crimes-in-underprivileged-areas) for certain crimes if they are committed in one of the 25 neighborhoods classified as ghettos, based on residents’ income, employment status, education levels, number of criminal convictions and “non-Western background.” Another would impose a four-year prison sentence on immigrant parents who force their children to make extended visits to their country of origin — described here as “re-education trips” (http://cphpost.dk/news/more-action-needed-to-prevent-re-education-trips-abroad-says-minister.html) —in that way damaging their “schooling, language and well-being.” Another would allow local authorities to increase their monitoring and surveillance of “ghetto” families.Some proposals have been rejected as too radical, like one from the far-right Danish People’s Party (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/20/world/europe/rise-of-far-right-party-in-denmark-reflects-europes-unease.html) that would confine “ghetto children” to their homes after 8 p.m. (Challenged on how this would be enforced, Martin Henriksen, the chairman of Parliament’s integration committee, suggested in earnest that young people in these areas could be fitted with electronic ankle bracelets (https://www.bt.dk/politik/nyt-df-forslag-saet-fodlaenke-paa-ghetto-boern?referrer=RSS).)"

I'm certainly aware that newspapers exaggerate. That's why in my first post I asked if it is true.

bicicleur
03-07-18, 22:55
Honestly, if it is getting this bad in these countries, these people should just go back to their country of origin. The past might be prelude to the future.

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what do you mean ?
is this your conclusion upon reading an article in the New York Times ?

bicicleur
03-07-18, 22:59
I did, Bicicleur.
This is what I saw:
"That tough approach is embodied in the “ghetto package.” Of 22 proposals presented by the government in early March, most have been agreed upon by a parliamentary majority, and more will be subject to a vote in the fall."
If they are agreed upon by a parliamentary majority, are they not law?
They do list some that are proposed but not voted upon, like the following:
" One measure under consideration would allow courts to double the punishment (https://www.thelocal.dk/20180226/danish-government-wants-double-punishments-for-crimes-in-underprivileged-areas) for certain crimes if they are committed in one of the 25 neighborhoods classified as ghettos, based on residents’ income, employment status, education levels, number of criminal convictions and “non-Western background.” Another would impose a four-year prison sentence on immigrant parents who force their children to make extended visits to their country of origin — described here as “re-education trips” (http://cphpost.dk/news/more-action-needed-to-prevent-re-education-trips-abroad-says-minister.html) —in that way damaging their “schooling, language and well-being.” Another would allow local authorities to increase their monitoring and surveillance of “ghetto” families.Some proposals have been rejected as too radical, like one from the far-right Danish People’s Party (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/20/world/europe/rise-of-far-right-party-in-denmark-reflects-europes-unease.html) that would confine “ghetto children” to their homes after 8 p.m. (Challenged on how this would be enforced, Martin Henriksen, the chairman of Parliament’s integration committee, suggested in earnest that young people in these areas could be fitted with electronic ankle bracelets (https://www.bt.dk/politik/nyt-df-forslag-saet-fodlaenke-paa-ghetto-boern?referrer=RSS).)"
I'm certainly aware that newspapers exaggerate. That's why in my first post I asked if it is true.
I don't think " One measure under consideration" is a law.
Why highlight this one and not explain the proposals that have been agreed upon?
And I think 'seperation from the family' is an interpretation.
In every country, going to school is compulsory.
This also can be considered 'seperation from the family'.
Salento is already comparing this to the illegal immigrant children who don't get to see their parents for weeks and months.
For Christs sake!

bicicleur
03-07-18, 23:11
it is true that in many European countries, certain people were dreaming of an ideal 'multicultural' society
that was very naïve, and these people didn't tolerate any criticism
also in Scandinavia

they can't deny the failure of the 'multicultural' society any more
'multiculturalism' meant people didn't have to adapt to the rules of the host
it meant living on welfare and not acquiring the necesary skills to enter the job market of the host country
it often meant not even understand the language of the host country

now is a wake-up call, much to late
and nobody knows how to correct this situation which needs correction
just asking the opinion of some random people in the street won't bring the proper recipe

Angela
03-07-18, 23:24
I don't think " One measure under consideration" is a law.
Why highlight this one and not explain the proposals that have been agreed upon?
And I think 'seperation from the family' is an interpretation.
In every country, going to school is compulsory.
This also can be considered 'seperation from the family'.
Salento is already comparing this to the illegal immigrant children who don't get to see their parents for weeks and months.
For Christs sake!

Honestly, I don't see where you get this interpretation.

I listed the ones labeled proposals, which I had never discussed anyway. Since the one for "mandatory" schooling for "ghetto" children before primary school isn't one of them I therefore assumed that's one of the "majority" of 22 proposals which was indeed approved by the Parliament. I'd be very happy to hear it hasn't been passed.

I never implied they're taking the children away permanently. I still think it would be a terrible idea to force Muslim families, if they want to eat, to send infants to a school where they'll be taught "Danish" values, including the importance of Christmas and Easter. It just shows total dis-respect for the rights of the parents. If pre-school is so great, it should be mandated for all Danish children. Otherwise, these kinds of programs should be voluntary.

You can't "force" integration, Bicicleur. Our American Indians are proof of that. You'll just force them to go the other way and to hate their host country even more. Surely you see that?

It's very worrisome, as well, that these kinds of measures, curfews at 8PM, electronic bracelets etc. are even being discussed in a European democracy. I'm beyond surprised you don't see that.

Ygorcs
03-07-18, 23:31
This is ridiculous. Not just highly controversial in a liberal democracy (hell, in any minimally ethical society), but also ultimately useless. Do you know the best way to acculturate and assimilate people? Simply find a way to stop ghettos from happening. The kids will spend their hours in "acculturation programs" and go back to their everyday life in communities where they form everyday connections only with other people of foreign descent.

People don't get assimilated because "they must" (that, I can already predict, will create resentment in at least a minority of people already susceptible to radicalizing), they get assimilated because... well, just because it happens in 2 or 3 generations when a minority (they're still a minority, and a poorer and less prestigious minority at that, right?) lives amidst a majority of people who have a different way of life, different customs, beliefs and thoughts.

When the children of immigrant background have 7 out of 10 friends and classmates of native background, and not 1 or 2 out of 10. When the immigrants have as neighbors people who have been living in the country since centuries earlier. When the main customers, members of the club, owners of the bars and restaurants, business dealers, everything and everyone around them are not immigrants themselves. When the immigrants really feel like they're the 10% in a much wider country, not the 70% or 80% in their small local "world". Otherwise don't even expect that people will just think "hey, we immigrated years ago, let's forsake our roots and become totally acculturated out of gratitude".

This kind of draconian measure is like a hound roaring aggressively in front of the house while there is a completely safe and accessible entry into it in the backyard. Immigrants do not assimilate because, especially with the modern technology (internet, TV etc.), they are more than ever shut down from having to get used to an everyday coexistence with the native culture and society of the receiving nation. Unless natives and immigrants are side by side, closely together, it won't happen.

Sorry if that bothers some peole who wouldn't like their "pristine" communities to be tainted by the foreign influences of those immigrants, but there's only one way people are totally integrated into a dominant society: when this majority makes and active effort to to dilute and then absorb the "different" minority.

davef
04-07-18, 01:10
I don't think " One measure under consideration" is a law.
Why highlight this one and not explain the proposals that have been agreed upon?
And I think 'seperation from the family' is an interpretation.
In every country, going to school is compulsory.
This also can be considered 'seperation from the family'.
Salento is already comparing this to the illegal immigrant children who don't get to see their parents for weeks and months.
For Christs sake!
Yes kids are separated from their families when they go to school (by this I mean k-12), but at the same time they learn the essentials needed to thrive in society aka learning to read, write, math skills, etc. It's a system that society accepts and that children benefit from. You can't compare this to those Danish minority kids being taught how wrong their culture is and how they must reject it. It's damaging to them.

OkTex
04-07-18, 01:34
Totally agree with the Danes... don’t think these measures were meant to encourage continued migration of those who have no interest in assimilating into Western culture!!!

Ygorcs
04-07-18, 07:03
I don't think " One measure under consideration" is a law.
Why highlight this one and not explain the proposals that have been agreed upon?
And I think 'seperation from the family' is an interpretation.
In every country, going to school is compulsory.
This also can be considered 'seperation from the family'.
Salento is already comparing this to the illegal immigrant children who don't get to see their parents for weeks and months.
For Christs sake!

If something is made compulsory only to people from a certain place/community or targeted to be enforced on people mostly of certain ethnic backgrounds, without any direct teleological relationship between the two things, then it is legal discrimination, not just a collective duty.

bicicleur
04-07-18, 08:16
If something is made compulsory only to people from a certain place/community or targeted to be enforced on people mostly of certain ethnic backgrounds, without any direct teleological relationship between the two things, then it is legal discrimination, not just a collective duty.
I'm sure the laws won't specify any specific religion or ethnicity.
But the problem is those who don't do any effort to integrate in the home country and it is those who will be targeted.
They cling together in 'ghettos' where they speak their home languages and share their own values and morals which are sometimes totaly incompattable with the modern western values. They try to shield their children from any outside influence.
If a native does not comply with the basic values of the country and e.g. is discriminating or racist or hatefull, he'll be sanctioned too.
And keep in mind, we are not talking about all immigrants here, only the minority that refuses to integrate.

bicicleur
04-07-18, 08:31
Yes kids are separated from their families when they go to school (by this I mean k-12), but at the same time they learn the essentials needed to thrive in society aka learning to read, write, math skills, etc. It's a system that society accepts and that children benefit from. You can't compare this to those Danish minority kids being taught how wrong their culture is and how they must reject it. It's damaging to them.

they are not taught that their own culture is wrong
they are taught to accept the values and the country of their host country, which are being rejected by their parents
they are trying to broaden the view of the children

that's at least what I think, but the paper tries to incriminate all these intentions

bicicleur
04-07-18, 08:44
Honestly, I don't see where you get this interpretation.
I listed the ones labeled proposals, which I had never discussed anyway. Since the one for "mandatory" schooling for "ghetto" children before primary school isn't one of them I therefore assumed that's one of the "majority" of 22 proposals which was indeed approved by the Parliament. I'd be very happy to hear it hasn't been passed.
I never implied they're taking the children away permanently. I still think it would be a terrible idea to force Muslim families, if they want to eat, to send infants to a school where they'll be taught "Danish" values, including the importance of Christmas and Easter. It just shows total dis-respect for the rights of the parents. If pre-school is so great, it should be mandated for all Danish children. Otherwise, these kinds of programs should be voluntary.
You can't "force" integration, Bicicleur. Our American Indians are proof of that. You'll just force them to go the other way and to hate their host country even more. Surely you see that?
It's very worrisome, as well, that these kinds of measures, curfews at 8PM, electronic bracelets etc. are even being discussed in a European democracy. I'm beyond surprised you don't see that.
no, you never said the children were taken away, but that is how it was phrased in the article
it is very biased, and others like Salento are immediately asuming it is like that
the article from the New York Times is very suggestive and biased, like other articles about Europe, like I pointed out in comment 2
it is even clear from the article that curfews and electronic bracelets are proposals from an extreme-right party and are not even considerated
and yes, look at my comment n° 12
I agree there is no ready solution at hand, you can't force integration
In America, you put the Natives who don't integrate in a reserve, which is not an option in Denmark
those to blaim are those 'idealists' who let these people and their extended families in at the first place, they were naïve and fundamentalist 'idealists', rejecting every criticism as 'racism'
that is partly why you were asuming everything was going so well in Scandinavia
mayby some of these naïve idealists switched carreer and became correspondents for the New York Times

gyms
04-07-18, 09:33
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/the-countries-where-its-most-dangerous-to-be-a-christian/

Of the 215 million Christians who experience persecution, the most vulnerable are girls and women. Every day six women are raped, sexually harassed, or forced into marriage to a Muslim under threat of death due to their Christian faith, the report says. Open Doors USA documented 2,260 such incidences against women—a number they say only covers “those who had the courage to report such an incident, and is estimated to be a mere fraction of those actually raped and harassed in this way.”

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2018/january/top-50-christian-persecution-open-doors-world-watch-list.html

Parents have to send their children to Buddhist schools, where children must learn about Buddhism and participate in its rituals, Open Doors said. And Christians often are refused permits to rent a place to hold worship services.

Maciamo
04-07-18, 11:40
It is ridiculous to force children to learn about religious holidays like Christmas and Easter, no matter whether they are immigrants or locals. Freedom of religion means that the state has no right to impose religious values through compulsory education.

On the other hand, I don't see what is the problem with having free language lessons for little children. I also don't think it's a problem for immigrant toddlers to go to free nursery school if it can facilitate their adaptation. Most (non-immigrant) parents nowadays pay to leave their children in nursery schools while they go to work. It's especially true in Scandinavia where a high proportion of women work and women are often reluctant to give up their career because they have children. With that in mind, I completely understand the Danish government's decision to offer ghetto immigrants to place their children in nursery schools 5 hours per day on week days. That is what most Danish people do with their own children from 1 year old.

bicicleur
04-07-18, 13:03
Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age of six.

I don't know, but I don't think they spend 2 weeks teaching about Christmas and Easter.
It suffices to explain them what Christmas and Easter tradition means for the average Danish people.
In fifteen minutes, this can be done.

Again, this whole article seems very suggestive to me, just like the wording “ghetto children” must be separated from their families.

noman
04-07-18, 13:39
Good to see something productive happening in Europe regarding immigration issues.

gyms
04-07-18, 14:44
Freedom of religion is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or community, in public or private, to manifest religion or belief (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief) in teaching, practice, worship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship), and observance without government influence or intervention. It also includes the freedom to change one's religion or belief.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion#cite_note-1)
Freedom of religion is considered by many people and most of the nations to be a fundamental (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_rights) human right (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_right).[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion#cite_note-2)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion#cite_note-3) In a country with a state religion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion), freedom of religion is generally considered to mean that the government permits religious practices of other sects besides the state religion, and does not persecute (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_persecution) believers in other faiths. Freedom of belief is different. It allows the right to believe what a person, group or religion wishes, but it does not necessarily allow the right to practice the religion or belief openly and outwardly in a public manner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights-act/article-9-freedom-thought-belief-and-religion

https://migrationdataportal.org/themes/migrant-integration#definition


Definition

There is no consensus on a single definition for integration. Definitions share commonalities, but remain highly context or country specific. Nevertheless, migrant integration may be broadly defined as:
The process by which migrants become accepted into society, both as individuals and as groups….[Integration] refers to a two-way process of adaptation by migrants and host societies…[and implies] consideration of the rights and obligations of migrants and host societies, of access to different kinds of services and the labour market, and of identification and respect for a core set of values that bind migrants and host communities in a common purpose (IOM, 2011 (http://www.epim.info/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/iom.pdf)).

Wheal
04-07-18, 16:52
What a conundrum. Immigrants want to move into a society that they feel they would have freedom, but they don't want to adapt to that society, but continue to embrace the values that they are escaping. Children from many countries are "separated" from their children for 8 hours a day for education. Maybe the article is simply looking at the very worst interpretation of the facts, and that as Maciamo said, they are simply trying to provide a way for these children to be more successful in their new home.

I for one love to learn about the history behind other religious traditions, and reject or embrace new ones.

LeBrok
05-07-18, 04:40
Maybe it is not a bad idea when done right. All children should be exposed to general curriculum, and general ideas and values, through public schools in every country. This should include not only emigrant kids but also conservative christian and jewish groups too, like amish, hutterites or hasidic jews.

Ygorcs
05-07-18, 08:42
Maybe it is not a bad idea when done right. All children should be exposed to general curriculum, and general ideas and values, through public schools in every country. This should include not only emigrant kids but also conservative christian and jewish groups too, like amish, hutterites or hasidic jews.

Then that measure, if it is really a good idea and benefitial to all children, should be enforced upon all families with little children. That would even help in the process of integration and assimilation of the post-immigration generations, because if there is something that is much more powerful than schools to provide that intensive assimilation it is a strong network of friends and acquaintances of native stock as children grow up.

Ygorcs
05-07-18, 08:53
I'm sure the laws won't specify any specific religion or ethnicity.
But the problem is those who don't do any effort to integrate in the home country and it is those who will be targeted.
They cling together in 'ghettos' where they speak their home languages and share their own values and morals which are sometimes totaly incompattable with the modern western values. They try to shield their children from any outside influence.
If a native does not comply with the basic values of the country and e.g. is discriminating or racist or hatefull, he'll be sanctioned too.
And keep in mind, we are not talking about all immigrants here, only the minority that refuses to integrate.

Are you really sure that all or even most people went to live in immigrant-majority communities, so called "ghettos", because of their own choise to refuse to integrate? Is it really possible to affirm that by definition (after all it's a law, laws are abstract and general, there's no escaping that) people who live in ghettos are those who are not just insufficiently integrated into the broader society, but resistant against that integration? I have my doubts, but I'd like to know what you think, since you live in Europe. I mean, if the problem is that there are parents and families that actively oppose integration efforts then it should be better to target them directly, not just put a generic (and thus necessarily unfair) label on all people who just happen to live in a certain neighborhood and not in another.

I have a strong impression that most people who live in ghettos are not dwelling there mainly because they wish to avoid integration (these communities usually aren't the nicest places), but instead that what happens is that the ghetto-like social life and everyday routine, surrounded by other immigrants all the time and with few close contacts with the natives, simply bars immigrants and their children from the kind of social, economic and cultural interactions that are totally indispensable for any meaningful integration or hopefully assimilation to happen along the time.

Maciamo
05-07-18, 09:56
Freedom of religion is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or community, in public or private, to manifest religion or belief (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief) in teaching, practice, worship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship), and observance without government influence or intervention. It also includes the freedom to change one's religion or belief.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion#cite_note-1)
Freedom of religion is considered by many people and most of the nations to be a fundamental (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_rights) human right (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_right).[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion#cite_note-2)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion#cite_note-3) In a country with a state religion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion), freedom of religion is generally considered to mean that the government permits religious practices of other sects besides the state religion, and does not persecute (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_persecution) believers in other faiths. Freedom of belief is different. It allows the right to believe what a person, group or religion wishes, but it does not necessarily allow the right to practice the religion or belief openly and outwardly in a public manner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights-act/article-9-freedom-thought-belief-and-religion

https://migrationdataportal.org/themes/migrant-integration#definition


Definition

There is no consensus on a single definition for integration. Definitions share commonalities, but remain highly context or country specific. Nevertheless, migrant integration may be broadly defined as:
The process by which migrants become accepted into society, both as individuals and as groups….[Integration] refers to a two-way process of adaptation by migrants and host societies…[and implies] consideration of the rights and obligations of migrants and host societies, of access to different kinds of services and the labour market, and of identification and respect for a core set of values that bind migrants and host communities in a common purpose (IOM, 2011 (http://www.epim.info/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/iom.pdf)).

The way I understand freedom of religion is that the state cannot force anyone to learn about a specific religion in compulsory education or any state-funded schools.

In Belgium most state-funded schools are Catholic, which was a gross infringement of freedom of religion as most children had to learn about Catholicism at school until 18 years old (the age of compulsory education) regardless of their background or personal beliefs. Politicians have finally found a solution to this issue a few years ago. Now all state-funded schools must propose a variety of religion courses (Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox Christianity, Judaism, Islam) as well as moral, and "philosophy and citizenship" for those who don't want any religion or moral. This means that even Catholic schools must now teach any of those if some students request it. That is freedom of religion.

IMO, Denmark infringes Human Rights is they compel toddlers and pupils to learn about Christianity in a proselytising manner. Now if it is just briefly explaining the cultural significance of holidays like Christmas, that is perfectly fine. As long as they don't tell that that they should believe that Jesus is the son of God.

Maciamo
05-07-18, 10:08
Are you really sure that all or even most people went to live in immigrant-majority communities, so called "ghettos", because of their own choise to refuse to integrate? Is it really possible to affirm that by definition (after all it's a law, laws are abstract and general, there's no escaping that) people who live in ghettos are those who are not just insufficiently integrated into the broader society, but resistant against that integration? I have my doubts, but I'd like to know what you think, since you live in Europe. I mean, if the problem is that there are parents and families that actively oppose integration efforts then it should be better to target them directly, not just put a generic (and thus necessarily unfair) label on all people who just happen to live in a certain neighborhood and not in another.

I have a strong impression that most people who live in ghettos are not dwelling there mainly because they wish to avoid integration (these communities usually aren't the nicest places), but instead that what happens is that the ghetto-like social life and everyday routine, surrounded by other immigrants all the time and with few close contacts with the natives, simply bars immigrants and their children from the kind of social, economic and cultural interactions that are totally indispensable for any meaningful integration or hopefully assimilation to happen along the time.

I think that bicicleur had Muslim, and particularly Moroccan communities in Belgium in mind when he wrote this. There are plenty of poor immigrants who manage to integrate well. I personally know immigrants from the North Caucasus, Sub-Saharan Africa, Vietnam and South America who became very well integrated in Belgian societies a few years after they arrived. But the reality is that there are plenty of second or third generation Moroccans who live in self-enforced ghettoes where the police fears to go and many of them try to recreate the living conditions of Morocco in Belgium at all costs. It's not surprising that the people who organised the terrorist attacks in Paris, Brussels and so on came from such ghettoes.

If these families were force to let their children attend state-sponsored day care centres and preschools to help integrate them, these things wouldn't happen. So I salute the Danish initiative, with the caveat that they can't use religious brainwashing.

bicicleur
05-07-18, 10:59
Are you really sure that all or even most people went to live in immigrant-majority communities, so called "ghettos", because of their own choise to refuse to integrate? Is it really possible to affirm that by definition (after all it's a law, laws are abstract and general, there's no escaping that) people who live in ghettos are those who are not just insufficiently integrated into the broader society, but resistant against that integration? I have my doubts, but I'd like to know what you think, since you live in Europe. I mean, if the problem is that there are parents and families that actively oppose integration efforts then it should be better to target them directly, not just put a generic (and thus necessarily unfair) label on all people who just happen to live in a certain neighborhood and not in another.

I have a strong impression that most people who live in ghettos are not dwelling there mainly because they wish to avoid integration (these communities usually aren't the nicest places), but instead that what happens is that the ghetto-like social life and everyday routine, surrounded by other immigrants all the time and with few close contacts with the natives, simply bars immigrants and their children from the kind of social, economic and cultural interactions that are totally indispensable for any meaningful integration or hopefully assimilation to happen along the time.

many of them live on welfare and these 'ghetto's' are empoversihed neighbourhoods were people with a good job and income wouldn't choose to live
these people know little about the culture and lifestyle of their host country and prefer to be among people from the same origin and background
because they live in such ghetto they have little oportunity to learn about the people who have a job and a 'regular' lifestyle that is common in the country
but even if they had the oportunity, they would not be interested
but the children eventualy have to go to school and see other children
when they grow up they often become angry young men

davef
05-07-18, 12:35
Then that measure, if it is really a good idea and benefitial to all children, should be enforced upon all families with little children. That would even help in the process of integration and assimilation of the post-immigration generations, because if there is something that is much more powerful than schools to provide that intensive assimilation it is a strong network of friends and acquaintances of native stock as children grow up.
I agree. Why not make it universal?

davef
05-07-18, 13:21
I think they should be taught basic practical skills like math and reading as well as how to conduct themselves in Danish society. Learning "Christmas and Easter" is fine as long as they aren't encouraged to give up their own religions. They should be allowed and encouraged to continue on with their own customs and traditions as long as they aren't disruptive to the host society.

Angela
05-07-18, 16:43
It's all a doomed effort anyway in terms of the enforced pre-school. They'll be going to pre-school with children from their own neighborhoods, so there will be no "mixing". It would expose them to Danish earlier, but that's about it. It would be good if they got some academics, but I'm not convinced that early intervention works. After millions spent on Headstart programs here, there was no long term gain in terms of academic performance. A better bet would be trade schools when children are older. You can't get a job without skills.

The U.S. has been down this road with its under class African American community. The only way it would theoretically work would be if you enforced "integration" by moving children from the "ghetto" out, and children from outside in for their schooling. It was met by extreme resistance here on the part of the white families, and where it was really pushed, white families sent their children to private schools. New York City, for example, essentially still has neighborhood schools, so there are many schools which are virtually all black.

It was also my understanding that these immigrants were specifically placed in public housing all together. Regardless, it's true that immigrants to a new country do tend to live together in certain cheaper neighborhoods for support etc. The thing is that if there is a will to integrate and a willingness to absorb them, the next generation usually moves out and into the broader society. That is, at least, how it has worked here with European immigrants. It remains to be seen if Chinatowns and other Asian enclaves will disperse.

paul333
05-07-18, 19:59
Denmark is offering assistance to refugees mainly, and as they are living within a different country/culture the families and their children should be made to understand and respect the way of life of those that are offering this help. Im not sure about the situation in Denmark, it seems they fear what is occurring with their nieghbours in Norway and Sweden, regarding immigrants/refugees, are they returning to their own countries when it is safe and peacefull, or have they no intention of returning, this is a question that is still not fully understood in nearly every European Country, and is a very confused and grey area.

The danger with recent immigrants such as the mass Muslim exodus into Europe, is they will not mix, but then choose to change the lifestyles/cultures and laws of the country that was kind enough to accept them.

In Britain we have a history of immigration and assimilation, and many immigrants enriched our culture etc, for one instance in my lifetime, the Jamacian and West Indies,immigrants brought their music cultures such as Reggae etc,and certianly enriched our joint heritage.

The recent Muslim immigrants are now mixing with third and fourth generation settled British Muslims and turning them against the very societies that helped them, and have no intention of mixing, they even refuse to learn English. This is a betrayal, that has produced horrific deaths and Home grown Terrors. I fear Denmark is aware of similar situations now throughout Europe, from the new and established Muslims,who all over Europe are now joining together in attempts to divide, and replace cultures and societies that have been established for centuries, with their own mostly Middle Eastern Cultures and religions.

I think the Danes are trying to predict and prevent a similar developing future, regarding their own settled and recent arrivals, and to preserve their way of life. I see nothing wrong in what they are trying, as Denmark and possibly Sweden's existing way of life will be lost forever in a very short time, due to their smaller populations,being entirely overtaken by a Dominant,Muslim Culture who will have the majority vote in only a few years, and presently have no intention of mixing whatsoever, only to replace. If they do nothing they accept the inevitable.

At least they are trying to deal with, and preserve what is in effect a nations very existance, and a very foreseeable problem arising.

Ygorcs
06-07-18, 00:11
I think that bicicleur had Muslim, and particularly Moroccan communities in Belgium in mind when he wrote this. There are plenty of poor immigrants who manage to integrate well. I personally know immigrants from the North Caucasus, Sub-Saharan Africa, Vietnam and South America who became very well integrated in Belgian societies a few years after they arrived. But the reality is that there are plenty of second or third generation Moroccans who live in self-enforced ghettoes where the police fears to go and many of them try to recreate the living conditions of Morocco in Belgium at all costs. It's not surprising that the people who organised the terrorist attacks in Paris, Brussels and so on came from such ghettoes.

If these families were force to let their children attend state-sponsored day care centres and preschools to help integrate them, these things wouldn't happen. So I salute the Danish initiative, with the caveat that they can't use religious brainwashing.

Then that confirms what I wrote in my post and I have concluded as I read about the history of immigration in the USA and in Brazil (back in the time when they were 15-20% of the population in the early 1900s). That is, the real core issue is that ghettos even still exist. No matter what those parents thought, their children and grandchildren would inevitably assimilate en masse if they simply grew up all around native people. Pre-schools will do virtually nothing to change that. What's really decisive is how often those youngsters of immigrant background meet and form social bonds with natives when they are mentally prepared to absorb most of the culture and norms of society: in school, in neighborhood clubs, in bars, parks and gymnasiums nearby, in trade schools, in colleges. Without (cultural, social) mixing, there is no assimilation. I notice that many Europeans seem to have a really hard time understanding that, maybe many people don't really want the situation to change even if it will be ultimately an improvement over what's happening now. People are assimilated when most people they see in their everyday life don't share the same foreign culture and language. There's no way a pre-school program will make that "miracle" happen if the children will go back to their ghettos and 90% of their social life will happen there with other immigrants and children of immigrants.

I'm not sure we can say that this ghetto problem is all due to immigrants "self-enforcing" ghetto communities. I'm pretty sure that, as Angela also said, the bulk of this issue began because in the past most immigrants were simply directed, either directly (by the state through public housing projects) or indirectly (economic dynamics), to cheaper neighborghoods and cheap public housing that concentrated a huge majority of immigrants and their descendants and grew naturally afterwards. That was a really bad move. If they could, they should've created lots of small public housing projects surrounded by densely populated neighborhoods inhabited almost entirely by natives. Now that would spontaneously "force" integration as no law is able to.

Ygorcs
06-07-18, 00:15
many of them live on welfare and these 'ghetto's' are empoversihed neighbourhoods were people with a good job and income wouldn't choose to live
these people know little about the culture and lifestyle of their host country and prefer to be among people from the same origin and background
because they live in such ghetto they have little oportunity to learn about the people who have a job and a 'regular' lifestyle that is common in the country
but even if they had the oportunity, they would not be interested
but the children eventualy have to go to school and see other children
when they grow up they often become angry young men

Doesn't the fact that they live in impoverished neighborhoods where natives don't want to even step in, and are mostly poor people without a good job and income, at least partly explain why they act and think like that, especially when the native vs. immigrant ethnic segregation is so starkingly visible? I don't think there's nothing worse for a young mind than to be not just poor, unprivileged and undereducated, but also visibly so, because there is, in their social environment, a huge probability that people who look like them and dwell in neighborhoods like theirs are "poor, unprivileged and undereducated". The power of stigmatization and the anger that may come from that is reinforced by that sense of being visibly different from other people, especially if you never formed strong social bonds with people who look like the natives, so that they are still the "strangers", "the others" to you and your family.

Angela
06-07-18, 00:48
Then that confirms what I wrote in my post and I have concluded as I read about the history of immigration in the USA and in Brazil (back in the time when they were 15-20% of the population in the early 1900s). That is, the real core issue is that ghettos even still exist. No matter what those parents thought, their children and grandchildren would inevitably assimilate en masse if they simply grew up all around native people. Pre-schools will do virtually nothing to change that. What's really decisive is how often those youngsters of immigrant background meet and form social bonds with natives when they are mentally prepared to absorb most of the culture and norms of society: in school, in neighborhood clubs, in bars, parks and gymnasiums nearby, in trade schools, in colleges. Without (cultural, social) mixing, there is no assimilation. I notice that many Europeans seem to have a really hard time understanding that, maybe many people don't really want the situation to change even if it will be ultimately an improvement over what's happening now. People are assimilated when most people they see in their everyday life don't share the same foreign culture and language. There's no way a pre-school program will make that "miracle" happen if the children will go back to their ghettos and 90% of their social life will happen there with other immigrants and children of immigrants.

I'm not sure we can say that this ghetto problem is all due to immigrants "self-enforcing" ghetto communities. I'm pretty sure that, as Angela also said, the bulk of this issue began because in the past most immigrants were simply directed, either directly (by the state through public housing projects) or indirectly (economic dynamics), to cheaper neighborghoods and cheap public housing that concentrated a huge majority of immigrants and their descendants and grew naturally afterwards. That was a really bad move. If they could, they should've created lots of small public housing projects surrounded by densely populated neighborhoods inhabited almost entirely by natives. Now that would spontaneously "force" integration as no law is able to.

Ygorcs, I agree with all of that, but immigrants also have to want to "change" their identities. That happened too much in the U.S. in prior generations. Second generation Italian-American children wanted to be un-hyphenated Americans, and to do that, they anglicized their first names, they didn't want to know anything about the "old country", they wouldn't even speak Italian to their parents. I think they even deliberately sought out non Italian partners when it came to dating and marrying. It's been later generations who have tried to reconnect a bit with their "roots".

The Italians and the Germans and the Irish didn't have to change their religion to fit in really, but many of the Jews did. The conservative and reform movements were American innovations. Most American Jews didn't want to wear David locks and strange black clothes, a lot of them didn't want to keep kosher, or at least only in their homes.

Of course, part of all this was also the fact that in the early 1900s you couldn't go traipsing back and forth to the home country, there was no access to Italian language radio or television, and on and on.

That's why even here there is a difference between the earlier generation of immigrants and the newer Hispanic Americans, which is partially attributable to their holding on more to their "original" identity. The other part is because some of them decidedly look non-European, and so I think, to be honest, that "white" Americans are more "loathe" to accept them. I'm telling you, there is a big difference in the acceptance and absorption of "white" Cubans (who actually aren't "completely" white) and, say, Puerto Ricans, in many of whom you see the SSA ancestry. Mexican Americans are sort of in between.

Marco Rubio, who ran for President and is the descendant of Cuban refugees. His dad was a bar man and waiter his entire working life. Rubio looks typical of the Cuban Americans I know.
http://knoxreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Marco_Rubio.jpg

Puerto Rican Day parade:
https://zayzay.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Puerto-Rican-Day-Parade.jpg

Racism is alive and well and it's dishonest to deny it's a factor.

As far as Europe is concerned (and the U.S. for that matter), I don't know the solution, but I think both sides have to be honest and accept part of the blame.

luciano
06-07-18, 01:13
Nobody is forced to stay.

Salento
06-07-18, 01:50
Ted Cruz (Lyin' Ted), Texas’ Senator

Father: Cuban (a Castro supporter that emigrated legally with a student Visa). (He said that wasn’t aware that Fidel was a Communist. Another Lyin’ Cruz)
Mother: Three-quarters Irish and one-quarter Italian.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Ted_Cruz%2C_official_portrait%2C_113th_Congress.jp g/480px-Ted_Cruz%2C_official_portrait%2C_113th_Congress.jp g

imo He looks more Cuban than Marco Rubio (Little Marco).
Walk around Miami, or browse around the airport.

Angela
06-07-18, 02:58
Ted Cruz (Lyin' Ted), Texas’ Senator

Father: Cuban (a Castro supporter that emigrated legally with a student Visa). (He said that wasn’t aware that Fidel was a Communist. Another Lyin’ Cruz)
Mother: Three-quarters Irish and one-quarter Italian.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Ted_Cruz%2C_official_portrait%2C_113th_Congress.jp g/480px-Ted_Cruz%2C_official_portrait%2C_113th_Congress.jp g

imo He looks more Cuban than Marco Rubio (Little Marco).
Walk around Miami, or browse around the airport.

There were two waves of Cuban immigration. The first wave were the "white" Cubans, the middle and upper class of Cuba who lost everything to Castro. They didn't know until modern genetic testing that they had any "other" ancestry. It turns out that contrary to what they were told, the Indians were not all massacred and they also have some SSA. The percentages range from a few percent to close to 10%. So, it's sort of like the Afrikaner situation although perhaps a bit more "minority" ancestry. There are a couple of papers on it and I've also seen the results of more than a few Cubans. They were shocked and so was I. You don't see it at all in this group.

That's not the only group of Cuban Americans who came here. Castro at one point opened the prisons and the slums and sent thousands here. Others have come subsequently. Almost all of them are visually mixed.

The two groups are entirely different in education level, prosperity, where they live etc. Some of the former group have returned to Cuba now that sanctions are relaxed, and they said the "white" Cubans no longer exist in Cuba. It's a group of people who have essentially disappeared. With the exodus of Afrikaners to Australia and elsewhere, that may happen to the Afrikaners as well.

Cruz' father was certainly not one of the original rabid anti-Castro Cuban refugees. For those Cuban-Americans, even to the second or third generation, even a trip to Cuba nowadays can mean half your family won't speak to you. It happened to a friend of mine. You can definitely see a bit of the admixture in him: he reminds me a bit of Colin Powell. It's not in the son, although there's a bit of an Italian look, I think.
http://vifreepress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/ted-cruz-father-rafael1.jpg

I think Rubio has the Desi Arnaz kind of Cuban look.
http://images.bwwstatic.com/upload4/144279/desishottwo.jpg

Anyway, the point is that Cubans who looked like this were absorbed. The others weren't. It's reality whether one likes it or not.

@luciano,
No, they're not, but these countries allowed them in, in some cases sought them, or, during imperialist days, took their raw materials and in exchange gave them access. Now, when many of the younger generation have never seen the old "homeland", and speak their ancestral language very imperfectly, you think they're going to leave? It's a mess all around.

ToBeOrNotToBe
06-07-18, 04:03
Just let in the "good" ones and send the rest back. I'm okay with immigration, but the great body of people that want to come to most of the West are on the whole detrimental to society.

Salento
06-07-18, 07:10
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/production-still-which-was-used-on-a-lobby-card-for-henry-hathaways-picture-id3208733

Salento
06-07-18, 07:27
Maybe mass-migration cannot be stopped and must run its course.
When resources run low, or are depleted, we humans are driven to move, and seek better places and opportunities. Out of our perspective, of what we consider necessity, we could become belligerent.
It’s always been like that. Everywhere and at all times.
Example:
The Americas after 1492 (The Natives were replaced by pretty much everybody).
And, ... Slowly, the G-Men were almost all “replaced” by the massive migration of the R1b-Men.
It can happen again anywhere, in Europe too.
The Ratio of the Population Diversity has increased rapidly in last few years at the expense of the locals.
The Majorities could become the Minorities, it has already happened to California, and a similar trends is underway in more States too.

Ygorcs
06-07-18, 07:47
Ygorcs, I agree with all of that, but immigrants also have to want to "change" their identities. That happened too much in the U.S. in prior generations. Second generation Italian-American children wanted to be un-hyphenated Americans, and to do that, they anglicized their first names, they didn't want to know anything about the "old country", they wouldn't even speak Italian to their parents. I think they even deliberately sought out non Italian partners when it came to dating and marrying. It's been later generations who have tried to reconnect a bit with their "roots".

The Italians and the Germans and the Irish didn't have to change their religion to fit in really, but many of the Jews did. The conservative and reform movements were American innovations. Most American Jews didn't want to wear David locks and strange black clothes, a lot of them didn't want to keep kosher, or at least only in their homes.

Of course, part of all this was also the fact that in the early 1900s you couldn't go traipsing back and forth to the home country, there was no access to Italian language radio or television, and on and on.

That's why even here there is a difference between the earlier generation of immigrants and the newer Hispanic Americans, which is partially attributable to their holding on more to their "original" identity. The other part is because some of them decidedly look non-European, and so I think, to be honest, that "white" Americans are more "loathe" to accept them. I'm telling you, there is a big difference in the acceptance and absorption of "white" Cubans (who actually aren't "completely" white) and, say, Puerto Ricans, in many of whom you see the SSA ancestry. Mexican Americans are sort of in between.

Marco Rubio, who ran for President and is the descendant of Cuban refugees. His dad was a bar man and waiter his entire working life. Rubio looks typical of the Cuban Americans I know.


Puerto Rican Day parade:

Racism is alive and well and it's dishonest to deny it's a factor.

As far as Europe is concerned (and the U.S. for that matter), I don't know the solution, but I think both sides have to be honest and accept part of the blame.

I agree completely with everything you said. Now things are different and, as far as integration and assimilation are concerned, much more difficult. TV, smartphones, internet, international travel, better access to imports - advanced technology as a whole makes it now so much easier to avoid integration.

Some immigrants in the past were also recalcitrant against anything resembling total assimilation in their new homeland, but ultimately if not them then their children would become totally assimilated, because the other option was to simply be totally excluded from everything that makes one's living more than utterly boring and lame. Especially for youngsters the prospect of not fitting in any "group/tribe and being shut off from trendy things and entertainments is terrible - so, "let's get assimilated". People got assimilated "naturally" not just because they usually had to coexist with people unlike them and their parents, but also because they wanted to have access to the amenities of life available only in the language and cultural ways of the majority in the country. I suspect that necessity was especially strong when they didn't live in such numerous ghetto communities that they could develop their own social/cultural microcosm and be "someone" within it.

However, I keep thinking like you: "I think both sides have to be honest and accept part of the blame". Integration does not happen essentially because people fail to interact and mix extensively (not genetically, I mean mixed, non-segregated social environments). If people of different ethnic backgrounds don't meet a lot (outside their work hours), well... then they'll remain as people of different ethnicities.

In the case of Europe it seems both the natives and the immigrants didn't (don't) do a lot to make that happen, not just willingly, but also through social and economic dynamics that, along the years, lead to a sense of displacement (we vs. the others) as well as increased social/economic segregation (and thereby also ethnic segregation, because those things are correlated in the first generations of immigrants, usually poorer than the rest).

bicicleur
06-07-18, 13:10
Doesn't the fact that they live in impoverished neighborhoods where natives don't want to even step in, and are mostly poor people without a good job and income, at least partly explain why they act and think like that, especially when the native vs. immigrant ethnic segregation is so starkingly visible? I don't think there's nothing worse for a young mind than to be not just poor, unprivileged and undereducated, but also visibly so, because there is, in their social environment, a huge probability that people who look like them and dwell in neighborhoods like theirs are "poor, unprivileged and undereducated". The power of stigmatization and the anger that may come from that is reinforced by that sense of being visibly different from other people, especially if you never formed strong social bonds with people who look like the natives, so that they are still the "strangers", "the others" to you and your family.

what alternative do you propose?
these immigrants are poor when they arrive and don't have proper skills for a decent job
and they tend to flock together

and as I told before, those living in the ghetto's are a minority, most of them eventualy succeed,
but some will never learn

bicicleur
06-07-18, 13:17
Maybe mass-migration cannot be stopped and must run its course.
When resources run low, or are depleted, we humans are driven to move, and seek better places and opportunities. Out of our perspective, of what we consider necessity, we could become belligerent.
It’s always been like that. Everywhere and at all times.
Example:
The Americas after 1492 (The Natives were replaced by pretty much everybody).
And, ... Slowly, the G-Men were almost all “replaced” by the massive migration of the R1b-Men.
It can happen again anywhere, in Europe too.
The Ratio of the Population Diversity has increased rapidly in last few years at the expense of the locals.
The Majorities could become the Minorities, it has already happened to California, and a similar trends is underway in more States too.

you should study African demographics

the African population is exploding right now, and the population is growing much faster than the African economies
if nothing will be done against this, the problem will not be solved, even if Europe would absorb more immigrants than physically possible
migration is not the solution
African economies have to grow faster and population slower

bigsnake49
08-07-18, 18:28
I have no problem with compulsory language and civics lessons for both children and adults. You need to speak the local language in order to function in host's society. If you want to speak Greek to your Greek friends in New York or Chicago or Dallas no problem but don't expect to never need to speak English because you live in the local ghetto. Permanent residence permits and naturalization papers should come with local language competency exams. If you want to practice your religion no problem unless your church or temple or other place of worship preaches hate against other people or religions. Welfare should be used sparingly and only to bootstrap. Both Europe and America are guilty of generous welfare benefits that sometimes serve as disincentive to work. I have no problem with some measures that drug test welfare beneficiaries or require them to be looking for work or be in training or volunteering.

bigsnake49
08-07-18, 18:44
I agree completely with everything you said. Now things are different and, as far as integration and assimilation are concerned, much more difficult. TV, smartphones, internet, international travel, better access to imports - advanced technology as a whole makes it now so much easier to avoid integration.

Some immigrants in the past were also recalcitrant against anything resembling total assimilation in their new homeland, but ultimately if not them then their children would become totally assimilated, because the other option was to simply be totally excluded from everything that makes one's living more than utterly boring and lame. Especially for youngsters the prospect of not fitting in any "group/tribe and being shut off from trendy things and entertainments is terrible - so, "let's get assimilated". People got assimilated "naturally" not just because they usually had to coexist with people unlike them and their parents, but also because they wanted to have access to the amenities of life available only in the language and cultural ways of the majority in the country. I suspect that necessity was especially strong when they didn't live in such numerous ghetto communities that they could develop their own social/cultural microcosm and be "someone" within it.

However, I keep thinking like you: "I think both sides have to be honest and accept part of the blame". Integration does not happen essentially because people fail to interact and mix extensively (not genetically, I mean mixed, non-segregated social environments). If people of different ethnic backgrounds don't meet a lot (outside their work hours), well... then they'll remain as people of different ethnicities.

In the case of Europe it seems both the natives and the immigrants didn't (don't) do a lot to make that happen, not just willingly, but also through social and economic dynamics that, along the years, lead to a sense of displacement (we vs. the others) as well as increased social/economic segregation (and thereby also ethnic segregation, because those things are correlated in the first generations of immigrants, usually poorer than the rest).

Anti-immigrant sentiment is not necessarily racially based. Irish, Italians, Greeks, Poles, etc were discriminated against in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Asian immigrants have done very well in the US in the late 20th century. So have the South Americans that integrated quickly and chose professions or trades. Unspecialized, general work does not pay well and the more money you make the more easily you integrate. Speaking the local language helps you get more plumbing work and helps you advance in your career.

bigsnake49
08-07-18, 18:48
what alternative do you propose?
these immigrants are poor when they arrive and don't have proper skills for a decent job
and they tend to flock together

and as I told before, those living in the ghetto's are a minority, most of them eventualy succeed,
but some will never learn

Tell that to the people in the ghettos of Paris.

bicicleur
08-07-18, 18:54
Tell that to the people in the ghettos of Paris.

do you mean ghettos or tentcamps ?

paul333
08-07-18, 20:16
Trouble is we are moving to a mass automotive/Robotic manufacturing based society, supported with, and using artificial Intelligence. Employment will be decreasing as technology develops. There will be difficulties with maintaining employment,in most developed countries now, and It will be virtually impossible and impractible to receive thousands of more immigrants, it will only serve to cause friction,de-stabilisation, and will seriously damage the existing way of life for most European Countries, the evidence of this is now being seen.

In Great Britain we developed NHS and Welfare, systems to help the 'British' populations after the second world war, to offer security and a decent standard of living for every family of the UK, this has been overwhelmed, and abused by millions of people who it was never intended to support.

The NHS and the Welfare system are both in crisis, as the majority of its finances are spent on consultants from around the world,it is one of the biggest rip off machines ever developed, for most of them. Agency fees are also another cancer eating into it. These two systems were developed and placed there to serve and reward the British people and their families,who had suffered so much defending freedom and a way of life during 1939-45, so that no British person or family, would ever again starve or suffer extreme hardship.

They are now global attractions, that are being abused and destroyed by thousands of immigrants, and foreign nationals taking advantage and exploiting every aspect of what was built to support the British indigenous populations, and standard of living.

Put these together, and you see the demise of a once great nation, that is struggling so hard to stay afloat, and survive. Drastic measures have to be taken soon, otherwise the UK as it was/is, will soon sink and disappear forever, and sadly it is also looking to be the same, for many other European Countries, including Denmark.

Messier 67
09-07-18, 03:19
Why don't the Danes let the Muslims know how they really feel about Islam and just mandate the eating of pork by all Muslims three times a day and ban burqas and prayer mats.

NYC has the same issue with Hasidic Jews. They are anti-social, only hanging out with other jews. They use the welfare programs. And they have their own sub-culture. Force the Hasidic jews to read the Gospels three times a day, take away their children to learn about the writings of St. Paul, force them to eat pork, ban hasidic jewish outfits and other customs deemed anti-social. Hasidic jews don't seem to be assimilating. Come on, equality for all. What about homeschoolers in the Midwest. What about those kids...

My Italian Grandmother spoke broken english her whole life and lived in the states. Here associates and friends were only family members. Was that a crime... The same is true for Irish immgrants, Polish immigrants. And they "mournfully" went to Catholic services, like how many viewed these Muslims attend Mosques.

Are we headed for another nazis Germany with picking on a minority group. This time, Muslims. For the far right will love these illegal and immoral statutes being created by the Danes.

bicicleur
09-07-18, 20:28
Why don't the Danes let the Muslims know how they really feel about Islam and just mandate the eating of pork by all Muslims three times a day and ban burqas and prayer mats.

NYC has the same issue with Hasidic Jews. They are anti-social, only hanging out with other jews. They use the welfare programs. And they have their own sub-culture. Force the Hasidic jews to read the Gospels three times a day, take away their children to learn about the writings of St. Paul, force them to eat pork, ban hasidic jewish outfits and other customs deemed anti-social. Hasidic jews don't seem to be assimilating. Come on, equality for all. What about homeschoolers in the Midwest. What about those kids...

My Italian Grandmother spoke broken english her whole life and lived in the states. Here associates and friends were only family members. Was that a crime... The same is true for Irish immgrants, Polish immigrants. And they "mournfully" went to Catholic services, like how many viewed these Muslims attend Mosques.

Are we headed for another nazis Germany with picking on a minority group. This time, Muslims. For the far right will love these illegal and immoral statutes being created by the Danes.

this is 21st century
women have their own rights today
to make their own decisions and to devellop their own talents

I don't think you'd like your daughter to live like your grandmother
and in these 'ghetto's' it's far worse

and refering to nazi Germany is grotesque,
you're insulting your own intelligence

Messier 67
09-07-18, 23:24
In the States, the Muslims are the most American, hard working class of immigrants. If you like conservatism and tradition, they will preserve the American culture and society better than the rest. They are not falling for neo-liberalism and neo-conservatism like the average joe is in the States. Which preaches endless wars for endless corporate profits. This migrant crisis is a symptom of these endless wars in the Middle East that neo-libs and neo-cons love so much.

Muslim neighborhoods in the states are among the safest in the inner cities, they revive inner cities. They are good and kind to their Christian neighbors. They are most like Italian and Balkan immigrants of the early 20th Century in values.

I am not falling for this generic hatred of Muslim and Mexican immigrants that is sweeping the Europe and the States, respectively. Liberals hate them because their women behave like conservative Christian grandmothers in Bulgaria, wearing a headscarf and never worked but let their husbands work. The far right hates them because they hate foreigners in general.

Those are their main offenses, which are not offenses. And like other poor, they take advantage of programs for the poor. Mexicans are hated here because they are a burden to the schools and "government benefits".

Angela
09-07-18, 23:53
In the States, the Muslims are the most American, hard working class of immigrants. If you like conservatism and tradition, they will preserve the American culture and society better than the rest. They are not falling for neo-liberalism and neo-conservatism like the average joe is in the States. Which preaches endless wars for endless corporate profits. This migrant crisis is a symptom of these endless wars in the Middle East that neo-libs and neo-cons love so much.

Muslim neighborhoods in the states are among the safest in the inner cities, they revive inner cities. They are good and kind to their Christian neighbors. They are most like Italian and Balkan immigrants of the early 20th Century in values.

I am not falling for this generic hatred of Muslim and Mexican immigrants that is sweeping the Europe and the States, respectively. Liberals hate them because their women behave like conservative Christian grandmothers in Bulgaria, wearing a headscarf and never worked but let their husbands work. The far right hates them because they hate foreigners in general.

Those are their main offenses, which are not offenses. And like other poor, they take advantage of programs for the poor. Mexicans are hated here because they are a burden to the schools and "government benefits".

I don't know what America you live in, or your ancestry, but this is complete hyperbole.

If you were talking about the Christian Middle Easterners, whether Lebanese or Palestinian, I might agree with you. I've worked on charities for them and know these communities pretty well.

A sizeable chunk of the Muslim community here believes that SHARIA law should be imposed. Where are you living that you didn't read about those surveys and interviews in mosques? You think that would go over well with Bulgarian grandmothers or Greek ones or anywhere else in Europe? Or how about honor killings, and female circumcision, for which doctors have been persecuted?

Please. You can disagree with enforced day care and language instruction but distorting the reality in the other direction is unhelpful.

Messier 67
10-07-18, 00:03
I visit a Muslim family monthly. And their neighbors all love them. Best residents on the block. Most involved in family, community and country.

Do you remember how Italian immigrants could fix anything for neighbors and banded together. This Muslim family fixes stuff for the neighbors, they all share food.

bicicleur
10-07-18, 07:55
I visit a Muslim family monthly. And their neighbors all love them. Best residents on the block. Most involved in family, community and country.

Do you remember how Italian immigrants could fix anything for neighbors and banded together. This Muslim family fixes stuff for the neighbors, they all share food.

nobody said there are no good, hardworking Muslims
I told twice above that those Muslims in these 'ghetto's' that don't integrate are a minority amongst the immigants
but they do exist

and there is worse
there are Whahabi imams in Europe sponsered and paid by the Saudi government to teach an extremist form of Islam
most of them are identified by now and expelled or being expelled though

there has been an almost criminal naïvity toward Islam in Europe for the last few decades
and that naïvity came from mostly leftist politicians that were in power during that period

Messier 67
11-07-18, 16:14
(mainly Muslim) Refugees revitalize American cities



The Obama administration’s decision to bring in 110,000 refugees next year, a small percentage of the overall immigration the United States will see from around the world, will benefit America in significant ways.


Refugee resettlement has played a valuable role in revitalizing towns and cities that have declined and stagnated economically. Contrary to anti-refugee rhetoric that shuns and maligns, refugees contribute to job growth, our economy, and our lives.


But Somalis saw a chance to open businesses in a town that had declined since the 1970s with the loss of the mill industry. Restaurants and shops took root in the decaying town center that residents referred to as “the combat zone.” It’s taken hard work and cooperative spirit, but Somalis today are integrated, and some, like Zamzam Mohamud, whom the mayor appointed to the school board, have become icons of community engagement. Crime has gone down, according to the police chief. A few years after Somalis began arriving, Inc. magazine named Lewiston one of the best places to do business in America.


This is not a unique story. St Louis has one of the largest Bosnian refugee populations in the country, many of them Muslims. They began arriving two decades ago and rebuilt their lives and brought prosperity. A local bank took a chance early on, providing loans to buy houses, invest in properties, and open restaurants, bakeries, repair shops, trucking businesses, and cleaning companies. Bosnian entrepreneurship has created jobs and opportunities for other Americans as well. The population of some 70,000 is credited with bolstering sagging school enrollment, invigorating the city center, revitalizing neighborhoods, and stabilizing the city’s decline.


Bosnians in Utica, N.Y., along with Somalis, Burmese, and other refugees stemmed the tide of population decline there and have contributed to such a high degree that the mayor of Utica continues to welcome refugees, including Syrians. A PBS NewsHour report highlights that “Utica’s commitment to resettle refugees isn’t purely humanitarian — its open-door policy is also a pioneering economic tool for revitalizing the Rust Belt.”


https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/11/25/refugees-revitalize-american-cities/7Xe7PX6JbRq4sfE8D4pNyJ/story.html

I was speaking with a resident who said he wishes the whole city becomes Somali refugees because of what they did to the neighborhood of Little Italy. Little Italy was no longer Italian, the Italians fled to the suburbs because the neighborhood was no longer safe, crime rampant. But with the influx of Somali Muslims, the streets became much safer and it is a relatively safe neighborhood once again. We need more of these Somali migrants to help out other neighborhoods, they take care of their property, crime drops and businesses move in.

Salento
11-07-18, 17:32
(mainly Muslim) Refugees revitalize American cities



https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/11/25/refugees-revitalize-american-cities/7Xe7PX6JbRq4sfE8D4pNyJ/story.html

I was speaking with a resident who said he wishes the whole city becomes Somali refugees because of what they did to the neighborhood of Little Italy. Little Italy was no longer Italian, the Italians fled to the suburbs because the neighborhood was no longer safe, crime rampant. But with the influx of Somali Muslims, the streets became much safer and it is a relatively safe neighborhood once again. We need more of these Somali migrants to help out other neighborhoods, they take care of their property, crime drops and businesses move in.

Little Italy in New York lost some ground mainly to Chinatown, not mainly to Somali migrants.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/nyregion/22littleitaly.html

As a general rule we never talk about religion with our neighbors, co-workers and acquaintances.
Just sayin’.

bigsnake49
12-07-18, 21:04
do you mean ghettos or tentcamps ?

The "suburbs" of Paris.

Angela
13-07-18, 02:54
If he's talking about the Chinatown in NYC, they're invisible. I'm there probably once a month and I've never seen a sign of them. It's all Chinese. The only Italians work in the few Italian restaurants that are left and they probably leave Manhattan after work.

Interestingly enough, I can't find data for Muslim immigrants specifically, but according to the Cato Institute 76% of immigrant families with children receive some sort of public assistance.

How this is supposed to be good for our economy I don't know.

Minty
13-07-18, 07:14
Anti-immigrant sentiment is not necessarily racially based. Irish, Italians, Greeks, Poles, etc were discriminated against in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Asian immigrants have done very well in the US in the late 20th century. So have the South Americans that integrated quickly and chose professions or trades. Unspecialized, general work does not pay well and the more money you make the more easily you integrate. Speaking the local language helps you get more plumbing work and helps you advance in your career.

I think that in this case, it a religion based. However, I do not think that it is right to force assimilate children into a new religion for 25 hours a week since they turn one.

People call everything racist these days, whether or not it has anything to do with race.

True, the wealthier you are the better you are accepted by the community, considering that everything costs money. The better you speak the language of the country the more you will adapt to the culture.

However, a person who is capable of doing his degree in English and then gets a job in a western country does not necessarily assimilate into the local culture. This person may still hold strong believes in his or her religion.

I will give you an example. There are plenty of south Asian people who migrated to western countries. They take their religion very seriously. However, on a national scale, I have not heard of the government using force assimilation to give up their religion.

Not all South Asians are wealthy. If you talking about skin colour, some of them are as dark as Africans or even darker than some.

Minty
13-07-18, 07:21
Maybe it is not a bad idea when done right. All children should be exposed to general curriculum, and general ideas and values, through public schools in every country. This should include not only emigrant kids but also conservative christian and jewish groups too, like amish, hutterites or hasidic jews.

Now I do agree with many things you said. However, not on this. I think that it is wrong to force assimilate children into another religion. Unlike the Anglo-Saxons who let their ethnic minorities segregated into their sub-cultures, the French want their immigrants to integrate into their culture.

Integration isn't assimilation, the Australian aboriginals were forcefully removed from their parents to be taken to a "home". Many of them were raped and tortured by white people. Many these days would refuse to go to the hospital to give birth because they think that their babies will be taken away from them.

davef
13-07-18, 07:26
I think that in this case, it a religion based. However, I do not think that it is right to force assimilate children into a new religion for 25 hours a week since they turn one.

People call everything racist these days, whether or not it has anything to do with race.

True, the wealthier you are the better you are accepted by the community, considering that everything costs money. The better you speak the language of the country the more you will adapt to the culture.

However, a person who is capable of doing his degree in English and then gets a job in a western country does not necessarily assimilate into the local culture. This person may still hold strong believes in his or her religion.

I will give you an example. There are plenty of south Asian people who migrated to western countries. They take their religion very seriously. However, on a national scale, I have not heard of the government using force assimilation to give up their religion.

Not all South Asians are wealthy. If you talking about skin colour, some of them are as dark as Africans or even darker than some.
Yeah! As long as you contribute to the society you moved into and pose no harm to anyone, who cares about what big man in the sky you worship or whether you want to blend with the local culture?

bicicleur
13-07-18, 07:30
I think that in this case, it a religion based. However, I do not think that it is right to force assimilate children into a new religion for 25 hours a week since they turn one.
People call everything racist these days, whether or not it has anything to do with race.
True, the wealthier you are the better you are accepted by the community, considering that everything costs money. The better you speak the language of the country the more you will adapt to the culture.
However, a person who is capable of doing his degree in English and then gets a job in a western country does not necessarily assimilate into the local culture. This person may still hold strong believes in his or her religion.
I will give you an example. There are plenty of south Asian people who migrated to western countries. They take their religion very seriously. However, on a national scale, I have not heard of the government using force assimilation to give up their religion.
Not all South Asians are wealthy. If you talking about skin colour, some of them are as dark as Africans or even darker than some.
I don't understand where you got the notion that this is about forcing to assimilate another religion 25 hours per week.
I don't know what they will teach those 25 hours. I hope they will broaden the minds of these children.
But nowhere I read they are forced to give up the religion their parents chose to force upon them.

Once again I must conclude that this article was written in a very suggestive way.
The purpose is to impose a biassed view on the matter.

bicicleur
13-07-18, 07:32
The "suburbs" of Paris.

what about them?
what message do you have for them?

Wheal
13-07-18, 16:33
@Minty, I am the kind of person that doesn't always look for underhanded reasons for things. What if they are simply trying to make the children feel more welcomed and help them to succeed in their new country. Teach them required behavior in classrooms, and help them learn the language so that they can understand their teachers, and to meet other children their ages. Simple things like the fact that a biscuit is a cookie (like my nephew who moved from Dallas, Texas to England where he went to the lunchroom for a couple of months and didn't know the lunch lady was asking if he wanted a cookie). Maybe they will help them get clothing that will be appropriate for the weather conditions. This is a strange new land they have been thrown into and a little help might go a long way.

nordicwarrior
14-07-18, 17:54
Sharia law seems to be the eventual systemic "breaker" for complete integration/assimilation/societal acceptance. I don't know of a Muslim population on earth that doesn't begin to see sharia openly enforced when Islam is 15% or more of population.


If only there was a way to confer a group of beliefs population-wide that allows for all who want it to practice love for one another, to show forgiveness, to express grace … but without the innate unfairness linked To sharia law. A group of beliefs that could serve as the foundational bedrock to successful societies that could last for hundreds, or maybe even thousands of years.

Messier 67
16-07-18, 01:16
Little Italy in New York lost some ground mainly to Chinatown, not mainly to Somali migrants.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/nyregion/22littleitaly.html

As a general rule we never talk about religion with our neighbors, co-workers and acquaintances.
Just sayin’.

There are Little Italies in many cities, I was not taking about NYC.

Salento
16-07-18, 03:06
There are Little Italies in many cities, I was not taking about NYC.

You didn’t say which one, and by not being specific most people think of the most famous Little Italy in Manhattan.
Also in Boston for example it’s just called The North End, and not Little Italy (by almost everybody).

ThirdTerm
18-07-18, 22:25
Children from “ghetto” areas will have to attend obligatory daycare for 25 hours or more a week from the age of 1, so that they learn “Danish values” and traditions.


This means that migrant children from selected neighborhoods will spend 5 hours a day at a daycare center, learning Danish values. Muslim parents should take this opportunity to get free education for their children. Probably they will end up speaking better Danish than their parents and they may become more economically or academically successful later in life. Early childhood education is a privilege that is normally available for wealthy families only.

Angela
18-07-18, 23:02
Nothing wrong with mandating daycare. It may perhaps improve the Danish of the children, although any time before around 12 you usually soak it up like a sponge. Given all the studies that have been done in the U.S., academic achievement depends on the IQ of the parents and the home environment, so, some of the kids will benefit and some won't. I wouldn't be expecting miracles.

I don't even disapprove of curfews. We have them in certain American cities. A lot of parents are actually grateful.

Some of the proposed but not approved (yet, perhaps) measures are totally out of line. So is instruction in "Christmas", other than explaining what it is.

IronSide
22-07-18, 20:27
nobody said there are no good, hardworking Muslims
I told twice above that those Muslims in these 'ghetto's' that don't integrate are a minority amongst the immigants
but they do exist
and there is worse
there are Whahabi imams in Europe sponsered and paid by the Saudi government to teach an extremist form of Islam
most of them are identified by now and expelled or being expelled though
there has been an almost criminal naïvity toward Islam in Europe for the last few decades
and that naïvity came from mostly leftist politicians that were in power during that period
yaaaah .. but I was told by my government that we do not sponsor any sort of extremism anywhere, oh my was I being lied to ? how dare they.
Look, this has always been said about the Saudi government, but when I look at the princes, and how irreligious, material and hedonist they've become, most liberal movements and reforms are sponsored by them, their forefathers were probably true extremists, or used religion to legitimize their rule, but the consequences that had on the minds of succeeding generations of Saudis, seems to be an unwanted side effect that the current government wishes weren't the case, with no future for oil anymore, they want the country to look attractive to investment and tourism, well, good luck on that.
If it was left to the common folk and democracy, some sheikh would brainwash some idiots, and we'll transform into a theocracy, and hopefully a peaceful one.
If any funding for extremists comes from the Arabian peninsula, I don't blame the government, but other rich religious extremists, in the kingdom and elsewhere.
there is still the probability that I'm an idiot, and wrong about all this.

Rizla
01-08-18, 06:51
Why don't the Danes let the Muslims know how they really feel about Islam and just mandate the eating of pork by all Muslims three times a day and ban burqas and prayer mats.


We just banned burkas and niqab in public - effective of today :smile:

bicicleur
01-08-18, 08:35
yaaaah .. but I was told by my government that we do not sponsor any sort of extremism anywhere, oh my was I being lied to ? how dare they.
Look, this has always been said about the Saudi government, but when I look at the princes, and how irreligious, material and hedonist they've become, most liberal movements and reforms are sponsored by them, their forefathers were probably true extremists, or used religion to legitimize their rule, but the consequences that had on the minds of succeeding generations of Saudis, seems to be an unwanted side effect that the current government wishes weren't the case, with no future for oil anymore, they want the country to look attractive to investment and tourism, well, good luck on that.
If it was left to the common folk and democracy, some sheikh would brainwash some idiots, and we'll transform into a theocracy, and hopefully a peaceful one.
If any funding for extremists comes from the Arabian peninsula, I don't blame the government, but other rich religious extremists, in the kingdom and elsewhere.
there is still the probability that I'm an idiot, and wrong about all this.
Yes, imams preaching hatred and Muslim supremacy were sponsored by Saudi organisations in Belgium and Europe
that being said, Erdogan is trying to do the same now, but the way he is going, I guess he'll be out of resources soon

as for the Saudi royal family, I don't follow this closely, but my impression is that there is some hypocrisy involved in their behaviour
I am aware that they are not Muslim fundamentalists, maybe not even Muslims, at least most of them
but they are well aware of the power of imams and Muslim preachers on the Saudi population
and they have to appear as devote Muslims to their subjects in order to legitamise their own position

is my impression correct?

there is a new king now? he did have the ambition to reform? how is he doing?

Gnarl
28-09-18, 12:55
Goodness knows that I've been a proponent for better integration of immigrants from third world countries, but this sounds draconian. I could never support this: taking children away from their parents for 25 hours a week, mandatory instruction in "Christmas and Easter", etc.

Is this true, and if it is, would the EU have any say?

See:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghettos.html

I've read the proposals, and I've spoken to Danish friends, and I must agree with the people who say the NYT article is slanted. It seems written to leave an incorrect impression and leaves out several relevant points.

Danish kindergarten / pre-school is heavily prioritized in Denmark. Apparently the Danish teachers for the age group have the highest pay in the world. Close to 90 % of parents in Denmark the 20 - 44 age group take advantage of it. I am told the people who do not are immigrants and the very rich who employ private teachers and childminders. This does not mean that no immigrants or wealthy use the public options, but that the 10 % who do not are mainly composed of these groups. About 40 % of immigrants use the daycare, rising to over 60 for pre-school.

At age seven, the start of compulsory school in Denmark, 30 % of the born-in-Denmark children of non-western immigrants have great difficulties following the education or interacting with the other children due to lack of sufficient Danish.

And consider the situation of these children. Not only do they have difficulties following the teaching, and talking to the other pupils, at age seven their peers have already been in education for years. Their initial experience of school is that its something they lose at. At age seven, these kids futures are massively screwed. I was very surprised to learn that at age sixteen, only two thirds of them are classed as educationally challenged. So one in three manage to claw their way screamingly into adequacy or higher. And two in three don't.

The children in kindergarten do not get "indoctrinated in Christmas" or anything like that. They get the same teaching as all the other children. This may include information about the holidays practiced in the country they live. Do other nations childcare and preschool not mention national holidays?

The proposal is bundled with a lot of other proposals to make sure the number of non-Danish speakers in any childcare institution or school do not get too high.

And the parents who decide not to send their children to preschool do not lose their basic welfare money. The only consequence here for them here is losing a bonus welfare stipend that they get over and above what ethnic Danes get. It is an integration stipend for immigrants who want to make an effort to integrate in the society they live in. As I understand it, it is a new development that this can be suspended if the recipient do not seem to keep up their end.

So to answer the OP: No it is not true in the form it is presented. The summary is, immigrants to Denmark who live in areas of special concern, can lose the extra money they get to help them integrate if they chose not to send their children to the country's highly funded preschool/childcare system. If their children do participate, they get exactly the same lessons as any other Dane, including the Royals who did use the public system. The proposal, if passed, will have no effect on anyone who do not live inn the special concern areas, anyone who has chosen not to take the integration stipend or anyone who is not on welfare.

From what I remember of the report, there is the verbal equivalent of a Venn diagram: Of Danish-born children whose parents are on welfare, who live in high-crime areas with high unemployment where Danish is a minority language, who at age seven speak poor to little Danish, and have missed preschool a higher than normal percentage do badly in life. This proposal seem targeted at the center of the Venn diagram without affecting those who don't tick many of those boxes.