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Angela
04-09-18, 17:14
This is obviously an English view of German history and politics. Is it accurate? I hope not.

See:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/02/germanys-far-right-never-went-away-but-festered-in-its-eastern-stronghold?CMP=share_btn_tw

I think it almost seems to say, in parts, that the problem with East Germans is that they're more "eastern", or "Slavic" than other Germans, which is a dangerous trajectory in its own right.*

I can see where the violent demonstrations are very discomfiting, however. They're not the only ones who had a flashback to Brown Shirt violence on the streets of the Germany of the Weimar Republic.

Ed. * I don't believe in trashing a whole part of Europe in this way, and, after all, the heart of Nazism in Germany was in Bavaria.

bicicleur
04-09-18, 18:05
you might as well say the KKK is on the rise in the USA

that is how much truth there is in this statement

the truth is that the brains of many Germans are still obscured because of feeling guilty about WWII
it made Angela Merkel say 'wir schaffen dass' which was an utter stupidity
and know some populist party like AfD is cashing in on this

but these populist parties are all over Europe
because Europe has a hangover from the uncontrolled immigration in 2015-2016 and even the decades before that

you might say Trump did the same, he's president because of discontent of many people

bicicleur
04-09-18, 18:30
if a journalist writes about the come-back of Nazi Germany, he has always an audiance guaranteed
there are people around who just want to believe that kind of stories

yes, there were right-wing people in Chemnitz who were selectively aroused, that much is true
and there was violence, but it came from both right-wing and left-wing protestors
and those left-wing are as biassed as the right-wing

just like in the US, where we are told police only shoot only black people

Angela
04-09-18, 18:52
^^I hope you're right in your general feeling about this.

For accuracy, however, the KKK is not on the rise in the U.S in any meaningful way. A few mentally ill young people spout this kind of stuff, but there's been no violent demonstration where thousands of people have rioted over immigration, or gone hunting for foreigners to attack them, much as a lot of Americans don't like it. Plus, are we supposed to totally ignore Germany's history? They were on that train from the late 1800s until 1946.


Also, I was referring to the first demonstration, before the Anti-Fa people showed up, fwiw.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9F9BYTvad0

Frankly, the only Americans I've seen behave in this way during demonstrations are precisely the black and other minority "Hands Up" people, which is indeed based on total fantasy and Anti-Fa type radical "progressives". I've certainly never seen conservative people in the U.S., anti-immigration people, behave in this way.

Nor does anyone in America spouting the kind of rhetoric used by these groups in Germany and other northern European countries get 35% of the vote anywhere. I'm no fan of Donald Trump, but to compare him to the leaders of groups like this is totally off the mark.

I just saw a youtube video of a demonstration in Stockholm where the leader was explaining the greatness of Adolph Hitler, and, as I said, they're getting a big percentage of the vote.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2uSNhHDVag

RVBlake
04-09-18, 19:08
^^I hope you're right in your general feeling about this.

For accuracy, however, the KKK is not on the rise in the U.S in any meaningful way. A few mentally ill young people spout this kind of stuff, but there's been no violent demonstration where thousands of people have rioted over immigration, or gone hunting for foreigners to attack them, much as a lot of Americans don't like it. Plus, are we supposed to totally ignore Germany's history? They were on that train from the late 1800s until 1946.


Also, I was referring to the first demonstration, before the Anti-Fa people showed up, fwiw.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9F9BYTvad0

Frankly, the only Americans I've seen behave in this way during demonstrations are precisely the black and other minority "Hands Up" people, which is indeed based on total fantasy and Anti-Fa type radical "progressives". I've certainly never seen conservative people in the U.S., anti-immigration people, behave in this way.

Nor does anyone in America spouting the kind of rhetoric used by these groups in Germany and other northern European countries get 35% of the vote anywhere. I'm no fan of Donald Trump, but to compare him to the leaders of groups like this is totally off the mark.

I just saw a youtube video of a demonstration in Stockholm where the leader was explaining the greatness of Adolph Hitler, and, as I said, they're getting a big percentage of the vote.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2uSNhHDVag
"Explaining the greatness of Adolph Hitler,..." Well, that must have been entertaining. I would like to see one of these loudmouths explain Hitler's "greatness" before an audience of older Poles or Ukrainians.

bicicleur
04-09-18, 19:49
^^I hope you're right in your general feeling about this.
For accuracy, however, the KKK is not on the rise in the U.S in any meaningful way. A few mentally ill young people spout this kind of stuff, but there's been no violent demonstration where thousands of people have rioted over immigration, or gone hunting for foreigners to attack them, much as a lot of Americans don't like it. Plus, are we supposed to totally ignore Germany's history? They were on that train from the late 1800s until 1946.
Also, I was referring to the first demonstration, before the Anti-Fa people showed up, fwiw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9F9BYTvad0
Frankly, the only Americans I've seen behave in this way during demonstrations are precisely the black and other minority "Hands Up" people, which is indeed based on total fantasy and Anti-Fa type radical "progressives". I've certainly never seen conservative people in the U.S., anti-immigration people, behave in this way.
Nor does anyone in America spouting the kind of rhetoric used by these groups in Germany and other northern European countries get 35% of the vote anywhere. I'm no fan of Donald Trump, but to compare him to the leaders of groups like this is totally off the mark.
I just saw a youtube video of a demonstration in Stockholm where the leader was explaining the greatness of Adolph Hitler, and, as I said, they're getting a big percentage of the vote.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2uSNhHDVag

I know, the KKK is a marginal phenomenon in the US, and so are those who celebrate Adolph Hitler in Germany.

And yes there is xenphobia in Germany, as there is elsewhere.
But violence commited by criminal immigrants in Germany is far greater than violence commited by any far right movement in Germany.
And then we can of course talk about German criminality in general.
But criminality of immigrants is higher than the average German criminality, and many immigrants were already criminals before entering Europe (drug criminals and human trafficking).
And so we can go on and on and on discussing...

It is a marginal phenomenon which atracts many journalists.

By the way, what do you know about the author of this article?
And where did you get the notion that worshippers of Adolph Hitler atract many votes?

Angela
04-09-18, 20:19
I know, the KKK is a marginal phenomenon in the US, and so are those who celebrate Adolph Hitler in Germany.
And yes there is xenphobia in Germany, as there is elsewhere.
But violence commited by criminal immigrants in Germany is far greater than violence commited by any far right movement in Germany.
And then we can of course talk about German criminality in general.
But criminality of immigrants is higher than the average German criminality, and many immigrants were already criminals before entering Europe (drug criminals and human trafficking).
And so we can go on and on and on discussing...
It is a marginal phenomenon which atracts many journalists.
By the way, what do you know about the author of this article?
And where did you get the notion that worshippers of Adolph Hitler atract many votes?

I didn't say that people openly and specifically lauding Adolph Hitler were getting 35% of the vote.

I was referring to quotes in the first Guardian article.

"Since 1990, more than €2tn has gone from the old West Germany to the old East Germany, not as a loan but as a subsidy. But it hasn’t worked. In 2004, years before the financial crisis and the new wave of asylum seekers, elections to the Saxon state parliament gave 9.2% to the National Democratic party of Germany (https://www.theguardian.com/world/germany) (NPD), which hardly bothers even to disguise its neo-Nazi heart.That NPD vote has now shifted almost entirely to the Alternative for Germany party (AfD), which has been able to function, though not without strain, as a home both for Tea Party-style alt-right libertarians and for people who carefully proclaim themselves to be both nationalist and socialist. The AfD’s thumping results – up to 35.5% – in parts of the old East Germany now threaten to deform the whole of German national politics. The unnerving images from Chemnitz are merely the most obvious sign of this destabilisation."

Alternative for Germany Party:
"The AfD was founded as a centre-right (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre-right_politics)conservative (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism) party of the middle class (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class) with a tendency toward 'soft' Euroscepticism, being generally supportive of Germany's membership in the European Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union) but critical of further European integration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_integration), the existence of the euro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro) currency, and the bailouts by the eurozone for countries such as Greece.[93] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-Kessel2015-93)[94] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-Thompson2014-94)[95] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-McGowanPhinnemore2015-95) At that time, the party also advocated support for Swiss-style direct democracy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy), dissolution of the Eurozone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurozone), opposition to immigration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_immigration), and opposed gay marriage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_marriage).[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-Thompson2015-15)
By May 2015, the party became polarised into two factions, one centred around Lucke and his core economic policies and another group led by Petry, which favoured an anti-immigration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_immigration) approach. The result was that Lucke's faction left to found a new party: the Alliance for Progress and Renewal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Conservative_Reformers),[96] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-split-96) later renamed the Liberal Conservative Reformers in November 2016. AfD also supports the privatization of social programs and state owned enterprises.[97] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-97)[98] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-98)
German nationalism[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alternative_for_Germany&action=edit&section=14)]

The party was founded on opposition to Germany's financial support of other Eurozone states and the third main point of its initial platform called for Germany to cede no further elements of its sovereignty to the EU without approval via a referendum.[31] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-Welt0303-31) Over time, a focus on German nationalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationalism), on reclaiming Germany's sovereignty and national pride, especially in repudiation to Germany's culture of shame with regard to its Nazi past, became more central in AfD's ideology and a central plank in its populist appeals.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-NYT2017-01-2)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-Duke-3)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-Spiegel2016-03-4) For example, Petry, who led the moderate wing of the party, said that Germany should reclaim the German word "völkisch" from its Nazi connotations,[99] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-99) while Höcke, who is an example of the more right-wing views, regularly speaks of the "Fatherland" and "Volk."[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-NYT2017-01-2) In January 2017, Höcke drew heavy criticism for a speech in which he stated, in reference to the Berlin Holocaust Memorial (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Murdered_Jews_of_Europe), "Germans are the only people in the world who plant a monument of shame in the heart of the capital," and criticized the "laughable policy of coming to terms with the past."[100] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-100)[101] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-101) Höcke continued that Germany should make a "180 degree" turn with regard to its sense of national pride.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-NYT2017-01-2)
The party also describes German national identity as under threat both from European integration and from the presence and accommodation of immigrants and refugees within Germany; its anti-immigration message is often articulated in this way, especially with regard to Islam.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-Duke-3)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-Spiegel2016-03-4)
Homosexuality and feminism[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alternative_for_Germany&action=edit&section=15)]

According to its interim electoral manifesto, the party is against same-sex marriage and favours civil unions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_union). The party is also against adoption for same-sex couples.[102] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-Wahlprogramm2016-102) The left-leaning newspaper Die Tageszeitung (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Tageszeitung) described the group as advocating 'old gender roles'.[103] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-103)Wolfgang Gedeon, an elected AfD representative, has included feminism, along with "sexualism," and "migrationism", in an ideology he calls "green communism" that he opposes, and argues for family values (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_values) as part of German identity.[104] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-104) As AfD has campaigned for traditional roles for women, it has aligned itself with groups opposed to modern feminism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism).[105] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-105) The youth wing of the party has used social media to campaign against aspects of modern feminism, with the support of party leadership.[106] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany#cite_note-106)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany

That's certainly far right and verging into Nazi territory for me, even if they don't use Hitler's name, and as the Guardian article pointed out and the map shows, 35% of some of the far eastern areas of Germany voted for them.

I assure you that nowhere in America would a platform like that garner 35% of the vote. I think the Guardian author is pointing out that it might not be typical of German voters across the board, but it is not atypical of attitudes in eastern Europe.

bicicleur
04-09-18, 21:06
There are many xenophobes in AfD, but they are not the majority.
Many are disgusted by the idea that Germany should save the whole world because of their guilt of WWII.
And Angela Merkels 'wir shcaffen dass' is a prime example of this.
AfD has become popular because of the failure of Merkels and Europe's immigration policies.
I can assure you, the minit AfD glorifies Adolph Hittler they would lose at least 90 % of their voters.
Germany is not Russia, or China, or Turkey, for that matter.

Tutkun Arnaut
04-09-18, 23:12
Germany has 20 million foreigners out of 82 million people altogether. 1 in four people leaving in Germany is not German. Majority of immigrants are from all Asian and African countries. There is no country in the world that does not have its own community in Germany. The emigrants stay quiet and mostly work. The problem is the immigrants have higher birthrates than the locals have. Roughly in two generations, in around 50 years to come, supposing no other emigrant is going in Germany from now and on, from birthrates alone the immigrant population will be in majority in Germany. As such slowly but surely the native German population will be replaced. Germany will be a thing of the past. To blame AFD? Not so sure!?

Tomenable
05-09-18, 11:35
the problem with East Germans is that they're more "eastern", or "Slavic" than other Germans

Indeed East German politician Martin Kohlmann from Saxony recently claimed, that East Germans have more in common with Poles, Hungarians and Czechs than with West Germans (I think this applies also to Austria, Brandenburg and Mecklenburg):

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/pro-chemnitz-gruender-mit-ungarn-mehr-gemein-als-mit-den-wessis-15764146.html

"(...) Im Stadion des Chemnitzer FC soll das „BĂŒrgergesprĂ€ch“ eigentlich zu gemeinsamen Lösungen fĂŒhren. Doch vor dem Stadion wirbt Martin Kohlmann fĂŒr mehr Zwiespalt: Mit „Wessis“ habe man nichts gemein. DafĂŒr aber sehr viel mit anderen Staaten. Der GrĂŒnder der rechtsgerichteten Organisation „Pro Chemnitz“, Martin Kohlmann, hat wĂ€hrend einer Demonstration am Donnerstagabend mehr Autonomie fĂŒr Sachsen und eine AnnĂ€herung an die VisegrĂĄd-Staaten Polen, Ungarn und Tschechische Republik verlangt. Diese Staaten weigern sich, trotz anders lautender BeschlĂŒsse der EU FlĂŒchtlinge aus Nahost und Afrika aufzunehmen. Polen und Ungarn werden von nationalkonservativen Regierungen gefĂŒhrt.

Vor etwa 900 Demonstranten, die in Chemnitz gegen einen Besuch des sĂ€chsischen MinisterprĂ€sidenten Michael Kretschmer (CDU) protestierten, rief Kohlmann die Frage ins Mikrophon, ob „wir“ mit Polen, Ungarn und Tschechen nicht mehr gemein hĂ€tten, als „mit diesen Wessis“. Es sei fĂŒr ihn beispielsweise „ein Unterschied wie Tag und Nacht“, ob er mit russischen, polnischen und tschechischen Journalisten rede, oder mit westdeutschen.

Der F.A.Z. sagte Kohlmann wenig spĂ€ter, Sachsen habe mit den VisegrĂĄd-Staaten „mehr gemein, als mit der westlichen Bundesrepublik“. Deshalb solle man heute „zumindest ĂŒber Autonomie“ fĂŒr einzelne BundeslĂ€nder reden. Man mĂŒsse „hier mehr Dinge selbst entscheiden“ können. „Wenn ein ungarischer MinisterprĂ€sident sagt „wir wollen das nicht“, dann sollte das ein sĂ€chsischer MinisterprĂ€sident auch sagen können“. (...)"

The traditional border between "West" and "East" in Europe has always been the Elbe, and several decades of unified Germany after 1871 - unified by force, and by an Eastern state at that (Prussia-Brandenburg) - could not change something that is 1500 years old (at least). Austria too always had more ties with the east, also geographically (Danube river connection + location east of the Alps).

Tomenable
05-09-18, 11:59
Germany has 20 million foreigners out of 82 million people altogether. 1 in four people leaving in Germany is not German. Majority of immigrants are from all Asian and African countries. There is no country in the world that does not have its own community in Germany. The emigrants stay quiet and mostly work. The problem is the immigrants have higher birthrates than the locals have. Roughly in two generations, in around 50 years to come, supposing no other emigrant is going in Germany from now and on, from birthrates alone the immigrant population will be in majority in Germany. As such slowly but surely the native German population will be replaced. Germany will be a thing of the past. To blame AFD? Not so sure!?

East Germany has a much smaller percent of immigrants than West Germany.

Angela
05-09-18, 14:45
Indeed East German politician Martin Kohlmann from Saxony recently claimed, that East Germans have more in common with Poles, Hungarians and Czechs than with West Germans (I think this applies also to Austria, Brandenburg and Mecklenburg):

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/pro-chemnitz-gruender-mit-ungarn-mehr-gemein-als-mit-den-wessis-15764146.html

"(...) Im Stadion des Chemnitzer FC soll das „BĂŒrgergesprĂ€ch“ eigentlich zu gemeinsamen Lösungen fĂŒhren. Doch vor dem Stadion wirbt Martin Kohlmann fĂŒr mehr Zwiespalt: Mit „Wessis“ habe man nichts gemein. DafĂŒr aber sehr viel mit anderen Staaten. Der GrĂŒnder der rechtsgerichteten Organisation „Pro Chemnitz“, Martin Kohlmann, hat wĂ€hrend einer Demonstration am Donnerstagabend mehr Autonomie fĂŒr Sachsen und eine AnnĂ€herung an die VisegrĂĄd-Staaten Polen, Ungarn und Tschechische Republik verlangt. Diese Staaten weigern sich, trotz anders lautender BeschlĂŒsse der EU FlĂŒchtlinge aus Nahost und Afrika aufzunehmen. Polen und Ungarn werden von nationalkonservativen Regierungen gefĂŒhrt.

Vor etwa 900 Demonstranten, die in Chemnitz gegen einen Besuch des sĂ€chsischen MinisterprĂ€sidenten Michael Kretschmer (CDU) protestierten, rief Kohlmann die Frage ins Mikrophon, ob „wir“ mit Polen, Ungarn und Tschechen nicht mehr gemein hĂ€tten, als „mit diesen Wessis“. Es sei fĂŒr ihn beispielsweise „ein Unterschied wie Tag und Nacht“, ob er mit russischen, polnischen und tschechischen Journalisten rede, oder mit westdeutschen.

Der F.A.Z. sagte Kohlmann wenig spĂ€ter, Sachsen habe mit den VisegrĂĄd-Staaten „mehr gemein, als mit der westlichen Bundesrepublik“. Deshalb solle man heute „zumindest ĂŒber Autonomie“ fĂŒr einzelne BundeslĂ€nder reden. Man mĂŒsse „hier mehr Dinge selbst entscheiden“ können. „Wenn ein ungarischer MinisterprĂ€sident sagt „wir wollen das nicht“, dann sollte das ein sĂ€chsischer MinisterprĂ€sident auch sagen können“. (...)"

The traditional border between "West" and "East" in Europe has always been the Elbe, and several decades of unified Germany after 1871 - unified by force, and by an Eastern state at that (Prussia-Brandenburg) - could not change something that is 1500 years old (at least). Austria too always had more ties with the east, also geographically (Danube river connection + location east of the Alps).

If you're going to quote me, please quote me accurately.

This is what I said: see original post.

"I think it almost seems to say, in parts, that the problem with East Germans is that they're more "eastern", or "Slavic" than other Germans, which is a dangerous trajectory in its own right.*...Ed. * I don't believe in trashing a whole part of Europe in this way, and, after all, the heart of Nazism in Germany was in Bavaria."

Tomenable
05-09-18, 14:53
In Bavaria? AFAIK support for the Nazis was higher in Lutheran areas than in Catholic ones:

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Religion-%2C-Economics-%2C-and-the-Electoral-Success-of-Spenkuch-Tillmann/2a479a2b3e08c933cefc8b30eb3e541e87517794

http://www.churchinhistory.org/images/hitler-rise/map3&4.jpg

Hitler's supporters in Bavaria were mainly its Lutheran minority (ca. 30% of Bavaria were Protestants):

http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/rise(n)-1.htm

"Hitler's first electoral support came mainly from the 29% Protestant minority within Bavaria. In the May 1924 elections for the Bavarian state parliament 'most of the Volkischer vote of 17.1% came from the small town Protestant areas around Franconia'."

Angela
05-09-18, 17:49
^^I never mentioned whether religion was a factor. The discussion was west versus east. Bavaria was where Hitler was located, where he first organized, where he attempted the "Beer Hall Putsch".

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch


As to votes for the Reichstag, of course it varied year by year, but this is what it was in 1933. It would seem to support "The Guardian" author's contention that there is something different about eastern Germany.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cDfM7z6mNCA/S2X_O-TLbhI/AAAAAAAABnM/qWRvyfYFUF4/s400/NSDAP_Wahl_1933.png

Angela
05-09-18, 18:40
^^I never mentioned whether religion was a factor. The discussion was west versus east. Bavaria was where Hitler was located, where he first organized, where he attempted the "Beer Hall Putsch".

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch


As to votes for the Reichstag, of course it varied year by year, but this is what it was in 1933. It would seem to support "The Guardian" author's contention that there is something different about eastern Germany.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cDfM7z6mNCA/S2X_O-TLbhI/AAAAAAAABnM/qWRvyfYFUF4/s400/NSDAP_Wahl_1933.png

Couldn't quickly find data for the 1930s, but this is the religious break down in the late 19th century. I don't know whether some of these areas would have been able to vote. The definite ones were indeed more Protestant, so religion may have had an impact.

https://i.imgur.com/sDadLOH.png

bicicleur
07-09-18, 12:23
if this is true, it is very worrysome and a far bigger threat to German democracy than far right or neo-nazism is :

https://www.dw.com/en/chemnitz-violence-no-evidence-far-right-chased-foreigners-says-intelligence-chief/a-45391328
http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20180907_03714882

the violence or the extent of violence by far right in Chemnitz is fake news

not just anybody tells this
it is Hans-Georg Maassen, head of internal German intelligence

and the media and the politicians, they all had themselves manipulated by this fake news
we don't know any more what part is true and what is fake

markod
07-09-18, 13:20
if this is true, it is very worrysome and a far bigger threat to German democracy than far right or neo-nazism is :

https://www.dw.com/en/chemnitz-violence-no-evidence-far-right-chased-foreigners-says-intelligence-chief/a-45391328
http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20180907_03714882

the violence or the extent of violence by far right in Chemnitz is fake news

not just anybody tells this
it is Hans-Georg Maassen, head of internal German intelligence

and the media and the politicians, they all had themselves manipulated by this fake news
we don't know any more what part is true and what is fake

Don't let your biases cloud your judgement, the debate is mainly about semantics. The videos are available on the web. Nazis chased migrants; they got away and no one got hurt. Do you seriously believe that the skinhead neo-nazi looking folks who attended those demonstrations are above stuff like that?

The ensuing uproar in the media lead to some headlines that made it look much worse than it probably was. There is no leftist conspiracy against democracy.

bicicleur
07-09-18, 14:02
Don't let your biases cloud your judgement, the debate is mainly about semantics. The videos are available on the web. Nazis chased migrants; they got away and no one got hurt. Do you seriously believe that the skinhead neo-nazi looking folks who attended those demonstrations are above stuff like that?
The ensuing uproar in the media lead to some headlines that made it look much worse than it probably was. There is no leftist conspiracy against democracy.
this is not just semantics
some people are trying to make this bigger than it is
to the extent that English reporters start writing in an English paper
and Angela, and the other side of the Ocean gets worried
because they turned some marginals into a mainstream movement
and the other Angela, the German prime minister is happy with all these comments,
they prove she's right and her opponents are wrong, she says
it's becoming part of a media war

markod
07-09-18, 14:53
this is not just semantics
some people are trying to make this bigger than it is
to the extent that English reporters start writing in an English paper
and Angela, and the other side of the Ocean gets worried
because they turned some marginals into a mainstream movement
and the other Angela, the German prime minister is happy with all these comments,
they prove she's right and her opponents are wrong, she says
it's becoming part of a media war

Come on, the self-proclaimed bourgeois right immediately rushed to the defense of the nazi mob. Migrants were chased, there were nazi salutes, calls for the murder of foreigners. They brought this on themselves.

Angela
07-09-18, 17:19
Sorry, I don't think that's what the article you cited as proof shows.

This is what he said: "Referencing one of the videos posted online showing far-right protesters chasing after people who looked non-German, Maassen said: "There is no evidence to suggest that the video of this alleged incident circulating online is authentic."

That's an extremely bizarre way of putting it. His job as head of domestic intelligence is to PROVE it's INAUTHENTIC before saying something like that. Perhaps his job is the problem: why didn't he know things had reached this pass? It's his JOB.

These are the facts:It was unclear exactly which video Maassen was referring to in his comments to Bild — as several videos depicting similar assaults surfaced during the protests — and he did not provide further evidence backing up his claim that at least one video was faked.

If he was going to make the kind of statement he did, then he should have done an investigation of ALL the videos, to forensically determine their authenticity.

He sounds like another empty suit like Corey Booker. Get your facts straight before you open your mouth.

This "other Angela" has professional experience in this area, unlike the economist Angela Merkel, and I can tell you categorically this is NOT how government officials are supposed to react to this kind of incendiary situation. DO YOUR INVESTIGATIONS, and then in as transparent a manner as possible, present the evidence.

bicicleur
07-09-18, 19:07
unfortunately that is how it is today in politics
politicians should folow a long time policy to do what is good for the country and to fullfill what they promised in election time
instead they are chasing the news of today, which will be forgotten by tomorrow

I don't say they should forget about the riots in Chemnitz
but they should restrain themselves
and react and act when the dust is settled and when view has become clearer

and you're right, this Hans-Georg Maassen makes the same mistake should have been more accurate and precise before saying anything
it only demonstrates that the events became an emotional media game

Angela
07-09-18, 21:32
Couldn't quickly find data for the 1930s, but this is the religious break down in the late 19th century. I don't know whether some of these areas would have been able to vote. The definite ones were indeed more Protestant, so religion may have had an impact.

https://i.imgur.com/sDadLOH.png

To put these maps into a bit more context.

https://i.imgur.com/0FM9DUa.png

Just a bit of trivia: the vast majority of Americans of German descent who can't be precisely distinguished between France and Germany come from these southern and southwestern and western areas.

These areas also practiced a Druidic like religion. I think that there is a large Gallic like substrate here, with probably higher levels of EEF originally, as well as more absorption of more "Southern European" like people.

martinmkp
08-09-18, 07:43
The traditional border between "West" and "East" in Europe has always been the Elbe, and several decades of unified Germany after 1871 - unified by force, and by an Eastern state at that (Prussia-Brandenburg) - could not change something that is 1500 years old (at least). Austria too always had more ties with the east, also geographically (Danube river connection + location east of the Alps).

The above written sentence is a very wrong and misleading information. The Elbe river HAS NEVER been the border between the East and the West in any sense, historical or political one. Maybe one exception could be 40 years of so called Iron Courtain or forcible partiable replacement of population after 1945 but this as well in a very limited sense.

bicicleur
08-09-18, 07:44
To put these maps into a bit more context.

https://i.imgur.com/0FM9DUa.png

Just a bit of trivia: the vast majority of Americans of German descent who can't be precisely distinguished between France and Germany come from these southern and southwestern and western areas.

These areas also practiced a Druidic like religion. I think that there is a large Gallic like substrate here, with probably higher levels of EEF originally, as well as more absorption of more "Southern European" like people.

I've had quite some bussiness experiences in Eastern Europe after the fall of the iron curtain.
When the East Germans got D-Marks for there Ostmark, these 'Ossies' came to Belgium to buy consumer goods (textiles & furniture ..).
It lasted some 15 months, untill they had spend their money they had gotten for free because of some mad West-German politician.
The Ossies never expressed much gratitude and they didn't built their own economy, they've always relied on West-Germany.
They always complained because they were envious of the Western Germans.
A few years later Poland, The Chech Republic, Slowakia became consumer markets.
I visited these countries few times. They were building their own economy from scratch, without much help from outside.
I liked to visit these countries because there was so much optimism, being able to build their own economy, free from the communist yoke.
I never heard somebody complain over there.
There is still a lot of frustration going around in Eastern Germany, but IMO they only have to blaim themselves.
This is typical Eastern German, it is not an Eastern European phenomenon.

bicicleur
08-09-18, 07:55
The above written sentence is a very wrong and misleading information. The Elbe river HAS NEVER been the border between the East and the West in any sense, historical or political one. Maybe one exception could be 40 years of so called Iron Courtain or forcible partiable replacement of population after 1945 but this as well in a very limited sense.

yes, I agree, we should look at the iron curtain
this left a big imprint, all other historic doesn't have much to do with it
it made an east-west divide in Europe, while the natural, historical divide in Europe is more north-south

bicicleur
08-09-18, 07:59
Come on, the self-proclaimed bourgeois right immediately rushed to the defense of the nazi mob. Migrants were chased, there were nazi salutes, calls for the murder of foreigners. They brought this on themselves.

yes it did happen, nobody questions that
but how big is the phenomenon?
is it nationwide or has this more to do with hooliganism?

bicicleur
08-09-18, 08:14
in the mean time the controversy about the genuinity of the footing with neo-nazis chasing foreigners is going on
the oposition is already demanding Hans-Georg Maassen to resign
why did he tell such things?
was he so stupid to undermine his own position or does he have some genuine indications to doubt the authenticity?

http://www.knack.be/nieuws/wereld/hoofd-duitse-inlichtingendienst-trekt-klopjachten-op-buitenlanders-in-twijfel/article-normal-1194447.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=social_knack&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1536340091

Angela
08-09-18, 18:44
in the mean time the controversy about the genuinity of the footing with neo-nazis chasing foreigners is going on
the oposition is already demanding Hans-Georg Maassen to resign
why did he tell such things?
was he so stupid to undermine his own position or does he have some genuine indications to doubt the authenticity?

http://www.knack.be/nieuws/wereld/hoofd-duitse-inlichtingendienst-trekt-klopjachten-op-buitenlanders-in-twijfel/article-normal-1194447.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=social_knack&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1536340091

If he does have any evidence he had better produce it right away. Otherwise, his injudicious and rash statement may cost him his job.

If he didn't have any evidentiary basis for his comments, then he's either too impulsive and not in control of himself, or he's in sympathy with right wing rioters and hooligans. Either way, he would be a dangerous man for that position, and either way, if I were a German citizen, I'd want him out.

Of course, in America, looking at our elected officials, I can barely find anyone not impulsive, injudicious, illogical, irrational, blinded by agenda or party loyalty or self interest and dishonest and glory seeking to boot, so there you go.

Tomenable
12-09-18, 00:16
As to votes for the Reichstag, of course it varied year by year, but this is what it was in 1933. It would seem to support "The Guardian" author's contention that there is something different about eastern Germany.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cDfM7z6mNCA/S2X_O-TLbhI/AAAAAAAABnM/qWRvyfYFUF4/s400/NSDAP_Wahl_1933.png

There is one major fallacy in your statement quoted above. It is as follows:

The "eastern Germany" you are talking about, is now in Poland, and nearly all Germans left it.

What is now East Germany (such as Sachsen, Mecklenburg) was not so Pro-Nazi back in 1933.

Do you realize that during the final stages of WW2 and after WW2 Germans from East Prussia, West Pomerania, East Brandenburg and Lower Silesia fled, were evacuated or were deported / expelled to the west - and that they mostly went to West Germany (not to DDR)?

Most of Germans who left Eastern Europe as the result of the outcome of WW2, settled in British, American and French occupation zones. So descendants of these Germans from areas which had the highest support for the Nazis in 1933, now live mostly in West Germany.

Just like Eastern Poles from areas annexed by the Soviet Union, were deported to Western Poland (west of the 1938 border):

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/36865-Eastern-(Kresy)-Poles-in-modern-Poland?p=551609

https://i.imgur.com/nijxyZJ.png

^^^
This map shows why genetic studies such as Kayser 2005 were jokes. Kayser sampled Poles from LB and DS (whose ancestors lived in what is now Ukraine and Belarus before WW2), and he did not even sample Poles from WP (Wielkopolskie), who are the real Western Poles in a genetic sense.

It can be annoying when geneticists are so ignorant about history, ethnography, etc. (often about archaeology too).

=====

Also between WW2 and the Fall of the Berlin Wall, thousands fled from Communist Germany to West Germany.

So today it is all mixed, and in West Germany there live much more of "Slavic-admixed" people than back in 1900.

If you want I can post detailed statistics, showing where in Germany did former Eastern Germans settle after 1945.

Some people think that Germans expelled from Eastern Europe settled in Communist Germany (DDR). This is wrong. The majority went to West Germany. And if you look at migration patterns in the last 70 years, there has been a constant influx of people moving from DDR to West Germany.

So you can find "Slavic Germans" in every region of modern Germany, not just east of the Elbe like before the World Wars.

Tomenable
12-09-18, 00:55
Western part of Poland inhabited by Poles expelled from Ukraine/Belarus after WW2 is now the most liberal or "Pro-European" part of Poland.

I guess we cannot blame Slavic admixture for conservative or right-wing views, after all!

Tomenable
12-09-18, 01:24
Couldn't quickly find data for the 1930s

Here is data for the 1930s, two maps:

https://i.imgur.com/WIW92J5.png

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8LkZNUQHSD4/T4WJSJMvMAI/AAAAAAAAALE/MAqr0gsOAAQ/s1600/Religion.jpg

Angela
12-09-18, 01:38
From what I could quickly find:

In Czechoslovakia, "Czechoslovakia:
Transfers of population under the Potsdam agreements lasted from January until October 1946. 1.9 million ethnic Germans were expelled to the American zone, part of what would become West Germany. More than 1 million were expelled to the Soviet zone, which later became East Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany).[106] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%9350)# cite_note-106)"

I don't know what the percentages were for places like Poland, Russia, etc.

My point was never, despite your attempts to put words in my mouth, that there is some correlation between attraction to fascism and Slavic ancestry.

What I had thought was a possibility is that the Germans who were under Communist totalitarian rule for so many decades, and under Prussian rule, in some instances, for centuries before that, and before that of the Teutonic Knights, might have retained political beliefs which were totally discredited in the West. Everything really isn't about genetics.

davef
12-09-18, 01:56
I saw in the news yesterday a mob of these German alt-rights throwing stones at a Jewish restaurant shouting anti Semitic slurs and other related garbage. This was in response to crimes committed by immigrants, and these crimes had nothing to do with the restaurant or the owner himself. Just seeing these people in action spitting their venom and throwing rocks at someone's business (on top of their Nazi views, the worst part about them imo) without regrets was enough to drive me mad

note: not calling out conservatives, just idiots like those mobsters who threw the rocks at the restaurant

Aaron1981
12-09-18, 19:18
"Hitler's first electoral support came mainly from the 29% Protestant minority within Bavaria. In the May 1924 elections for the Bavarian state parliament 'most of the Volkischer vote of 17.1% came from the small town Protestant areas around Franconia'."

Of course, but Hitler was a good Catholic, as was the Pope/Church who went along with his agenda as his intentions became clear. Hitler and the formation of the Nazis were not clear with their agenda when they were elected. The party rose to power because it was revolutionary and nationalistic, which would have certainly run a chord with a religious minority of ethnic Germans. That was not inherently evil, as initially, nobody was suggesting death of Jews, Slavs, Roma, political opponents..etc

Angela
12-09-18, 19:42
Of course, but Hitler was a good Catholic, as was the Pope/Church who went along with his agenda as his intentions became clear. Hitler and the formation of the Nazis were not clear with their agenda when they were elected. The party rose to power because it was revolutionary and nationalistic, which would have certainly run a chord with a religious minority of ethnic Germans. That was not inherently evil, as initially, nobody was suggesting death of Jews, Slavs, Roma, political opponents..etc

Absolute bunk. Hitler was absolutely NOT a good Catholic. He HATED the Church all his adult life. The Nazis considered it a "Jewish" religion and wanted to return Germany to its pagan beliefs. That wasn't a new idea, either. My God, ever heard of Wagner? Where do you get this crap?

The Pope may have been a coward and unwilling to take on the Germans too strongly given that they occupied Italy and encircled the Vatican, and also that he feared they would destroy the Church and send all Catholics to camps as well, but there is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever that he supported that murderous and racist ideology. In fact, the Church was responsible for saving innumerable Jews in monasteries and convents, and priests and nuns, with the tacit approval of their superiors, were involved in resistance work in France and Italy at least, if not in Germany.

Equally asinine is any suggestion that the Nazis were not clear in their agenda from the beginning. Outright, open racists were among his earliest and most fervent followers. They also bankrolled him, along with industrialists and ex-army people. Have you never read Mein Kampf, for Christ's sake? It's insane anti-Semitism from beginning to end and it was written in 1924!

The ideology is even older than that:

"February 24, 1920
Nazis outline political agenda
The first public meeting of the Nazi party, then called the German Workers’ Party, takes place in Munich, Germany. Adolf Hitler issues a "25 Point Program" outlining the party's political agenda. The party platform embodies racism. It demands racial purity in Germany; proclaims Germany's destiny to rule over inferior races; and identifies Jews as racial enemies. Point 4 concludes that "No Jew, therefore, may be a member of the Nation."


https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/nazi-racism

How much clearer could it be? Hitler's earliest mentor and bankroller of the Nazi party was a notorious anti-Semite, Dietrich Eckhart. Hitler was already part of anti-semitic circles when he was penniless in Vienna. It's not that it would have been hard to find them. Anti-semitism was an important part of the cultural zeitgeist in Austria and Germany since the late 1800's.

Instead of reading modern racist tracts, pick up a copy of "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". It's still one of the best resources for the era, and it is particularly good in describing the milieu out of which Nazism arose.

Dietrich Eckhart: He was writing anti-semitic plays in 1912.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Eckart

Alfred Rosenberg: Executed after his trial at Nuremberg. Good riddance to an evil S.O.B.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Rosenberg

Inform yourself before you open your mouth; we don't need any more uneducated musings. Or perhaps it's just part of your agenda to spread deliberate lies. Continue it and there will be consequences.

"Around a third of Germans were Catholic in the 1930s. The Church in Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism_in_Germany) had spoken against the rise of Nazism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rise_of_Nazism), but the Catholic aligned Centre Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_Party_(Germany)) capitulated in 1933 and was banned. In the various 1933 elections the percentage of Catholics voting for the Nazis party was remarkably lower than the average . Nazi key ideologic Alfred Rosenberg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Rosenberg) was banned on the index of the Inquisition , presided by later pope Pius XII (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pius_XII). Adolf Hitler (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler) and several key Nazis had been raised Catholic, but became hostile to the Church in adulthood. While Article 24 of the NSDAP party platform (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program) called for conditional toleration of Christian denominations and the 1933 Reichskonkordat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat) treaty with the Vatican purported to guarantee religious freedom for Catholics, the Nazis were essentially hostile to Christianity and the Catholic Church faced persecution in Nazi Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church). Its press, schools and youth organisations were closed, much property confiscated and around one third of its clergy faced reprisals from authorities. Catholic lay leaders were targeted in the Night of the Long Knives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives) purge. The Church hierarchy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_bishops_in_Nazi_Germany) attempted to co-operate with the new government, but in 1937, the Papal Encyclical Mit brennender Sorge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge) accused the government of "fundamental hostility" to the church.Among the most courageous demonstrations of opposition inside Germany were the 1941 sermons of Bishop August von Galen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen) of MĂŒnster. Nevertheless, wrote Alan Bullock (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Bullock) "[n]either the Catholic Church nor the Evangelical Church... as institutions, felt it possible to take up an attitude of open opposition to the regime".[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany#cite_note-1) In every country under German occupation, priests played a major part in rescuing Jews, but Catholic resistance to mistreatment of Jews in Germany was generally limited to fragmented and largely individual efforts. Mary Fulbrook wrote that when politics encroached on the church, Catholics were prepared to resist, but that the record was otherwise patchy and uneven, and that, with notable exceptions, "it seems that, for many Germans, adherence to the Christian faith proved compatible with at least passive acquiescence in, if not active support for, the Nazi dictatorship".[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany#cite_note-2)
Catholics fought on both sides in the Second World War. Hitler's invasion of predominantly Catholic Poland ignited the conflict in 1939. Here, especially in the areas of Poland annexed to the Reich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany)—as in other annexed regions of Slovenia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovene_Lands_in_World_War_II) and Austria—Nazi persecution of the church (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Poland) was intense. Many clergy were targeted for extermination. Through his links to the German Resistance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pius_XII_and_the_German_Resistance), Pope Pius XII warned the Allies of the planned Nazi invasion of the Low Countries in 1940. From that year, the Nazis gathered priest-dissidents in a dedicated clergy barracks at Dachau (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_Barracks_of_Dachau_Concentration_Camp), where 95 percent of its 2,720 inmates were Catholic (mostly Poles, and 411 Germans) and 1,034 priests died there. Expropriation of church properties surged from 1941.
The Vatican, surrounded by Fascist Italy, was officially neutral during the war, but used diplomacy to aid victims and lobby for peace. Vatican Radio and other media spoke out against atrocities. While Nazi antisemitism embraced modern pseudo-scientific racial principles, ancient antipathies between Christianity and Judaism contributed to European antisemitism. During the Nazi era, the church rescued many thousands of Jews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Catholics_during_the_Holocaust) by issuing false documents, lobbying Axis officials, hiding them in monasteries, convents, schools and elsewhere; including in the Vatican and papal residence at Castel Gandolfo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castel_Gandolfo). The Pope's role during this period is contested. The Reich Security Main Office (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reich_Security_Main_Office) called Pius XII a "mouthpiece" of the Jews. His first encyclical, Summi Pontificatus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summi_Pontificatus), called the invasion of Poland an "hour of darkness", his 1942 Christmas address (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII%27s_1942_Christmas_address) denounced race murders and his Mystici corporis Christi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystici_corporis_Christi) encyclical (1943) denounced the murder of the handicapped."

This should be clear enough even for you.

Ygorcs
12-09-18, 20:47
Absolute bunk. Hitler was absolutely NOT a good Catholic. He HATED the Church all his adult life. The Nazis considered it a "Jewish" religion and wanted to return Germany to its pagan beliefs. That wasn't a new idea, either. My God, ever heard of Wagner? Where do you get this crap?

The Pope may have been a coward and unwilling to take on the Germans too strongly given that they occupied Italy and encircled the Vatican, and also that he feared they would destroy the Church and send all Catholics to camps as well, but there is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever that he supported that murderous and racist ideology. In fact, the Church was responsible for saving innumerable Jews in monasteries and convents, and priests and nuns, with the tacit approval of their superiors, were involved in resistance work in France and Italy at least, if not in Germany.

Equally asinine is any suggestion that the Nazis were not clear in their agenda from the beginning. Outright, open racists were among his earliest and most fervent followers. They also bankrolled him, along with industrialists and ex-army people. Have you never read Mein Kampf, for Christ's sake? It's insane anti-Semitism from beginning to end and it was written in 1924!

The ideology is even older than that:

"February 24, 1920
Nazis outline political agenda
The first public meeting of the Nazi party, then called the German Workers’ Party, takes place in Munich, Germany. Adolf Hitler issues a "25 Point Program" outlining the party's political agenda. The party platform embodies racism. It demands racial purity in Germany; proclaims Germany's destiny to rule over inferior races; and identifies Jews as racial enemies. Point 4 concludes that "No Jew, therefore, may be a member of the Nation."


https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/nazi-racism

How much clearer could it be? Hitler's earliest mentor and bankroller of the Nazi party was a notorious anti-Semite, Dietrich Eckhart. Hitler was already part of anti-semitic circles when he was penniless in Vienna. It's not that it would have been hard to find them. Anti-semitism was an important part of the cultural zeitgeist in Austria and Germany since the late 1800's.

Instead of reading modern racist tracts, pick up a copy of "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". It's still one of the best resources for the era, and it is particularly good in describing the milieu out of which Nazism arose.

Dietrich Eckhart: He was writing anti-semitic plays in 1912.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Eckart

Alfred Rosenberg: Executed after his trial at Nuremberg. Good riddance to an evil S.O.B.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Rosenberg

Inform yourself before you open your mouth; we don't need any more uneducated musings. Or perhaps it's just part of your agenda to spread deliberate lies. Continue it and there will be consequences.

"Around a third of Germans were Catholic in the 1930s. The Church in Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism_in_Germany) had spoken against the rise of Nazism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rise_of_Nazism), but the Catholic aligned Centre Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_Party_(Germany)) capitulated in 1933 and was banned. In the various 1933 elections the percentage of Catholics voting for the Nazis party was remarkably lower than the average . Nazi key ideologic Alfred Rosenberg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Rosenberg) was banned on the index of the Inquisition , presided by later pope Pius XII (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pius_XII). Adolf Hitler (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler) and several key Nazis had been raised Catholic, but became hostile to the Church in adulthood. While Article 24 of the NSDAP party platform (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program) called for conditional toleration of Christian denominations and the 1933 Reichskonkordat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat) treaty with the Vatican purported to guarantee religious freedom for Catholics, the Nazis were essentially hostile to Christianity and the Catholic Church faced persecution in Nazi Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church). Its press, schools and youth organisations were closed, much property confiscated and around one third of its clergy faced reprisals from authorities. Catholic lay leaders were targeted in the Night of the Long Knives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives) purge. The Church hierarchy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_bishops_in_Nazi_Germany) attempted to co-operate with the new government, but in 1937, the Papal Encyclical Mit brennender Sorge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge) accused the government of "fundamental hostility" to the church.Among the most courageous demonstrations of opposition inside Germany were the 1941 sermons of Bishop August von Galen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen) of MĂŒnster. Nevertheless, wrote Alan Bullock (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Bullock) "[n]either the Catholic Church nor the Evangelical Church... as institutions, felt it possible to take up an attitude of open opposition to the regime".[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany#cite_note-1) In every country under German occupation, priests played a major part in rescuing Jews, but Catholic resistance to mistreatment of Jews in Germany was generally limited to fragmented and largely individual efforts. Mary Fulbrook wrote that when politics encroached on the church, Catholics were prepared to resist, but that the record was otherwise patchy and uneven, and that, with notable exceptions, "it seems that, for many Germans, adherence to the Christian faith proved compatible with at least passive acquiescence in, if not active support for, the Nazi dictatorship".[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany#cite_note-2)
Catholics fought on both sides in the Second World War. Hitler's invasion of predominantly Catholic Poland ignited the conflict in 1939. Here, especially in the areas of Poland annexed to the Reich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_areas_annexed_by_Nazi_Germany)—as in other annexed regions of Slovenia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovene_Lands_in_World_War_II) and Austria—Nazi persecution of the church (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Poland) was intense. Many clergy were targeted for extermination. Through his links to the German Resistance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pius_XII_and_the_German_Resistance), Pope Pius XII warned the Allies of the planned Nazi invasion of the Low Countries in 1940. From that year, the Nazis gathered priest-dissidents in a dedicated clergy barracks at Dachau (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_Barracks_of_Dachau_Concentration_Camp), where 95 percent of its 2,720 inmates were Catholic (mostly Poles, and 411 Germans) and 1,034 priests died there. Expropriation of church properties surged from 1941.
The Vatican, surrounded by Fascist Italy, was officially neutral during the war, but used diplomacy to aid victims and lobby for peace. Vatican Radio and other media spoke out against atrocities. While Nazi antisemitism embraced modern pseudo-scientific racial principles, ancient antipathies between Christianity and Judaism contributed to European antisemitism. During the Nazi era, the church rescued many thousands of Jews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Catholics_during_the_Holocaust) by issuing false documents, lobbying Axis officials, hiding them in monasteries, convents, schools and elsewhere; including in the Vatican and papal residence at Castel Gandolfo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castel_Gandolfo). The Pope's role during this period is contested. The Reich Security Main Office (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reich_Security_Main_Office) called Pius XII a "mouthpiece" of the Jews. His first encyclical, Summi Pontificatus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summi_Pontificatus), called the invasion of Poland an "hour of darkness", his 1942 Christmas address (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII%27s_1942_Christmas_address) denounced race murders and his Mystici corporis Christi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystici_corporis_Christi) encyclical (1943) denounced the murder of the handicapped."

This should be clear enough even for you.

Thanks so much for this post. This ludicrous criticism based on sensationalist bestsellers and TV shows is such a beaten path and so unsubstantiated that I got tired of arguing about it. It seems these people never read much about the Nazi ideology, with its decidedly "non-Catholic/Papist" plans of creating a separate "Nazi Christian church" and especially their neo-pagan leanings.

Ygorcs
12-09-18, 20:55
Of course, but Hitler was a good Catholic, as was the Pope/Church who went along with his agenda as his intentions became clear. Hitler and the formation of the Nazis were not clear with their agenda when they were elected. The party rose to power because it was revolutionary and nationalistic, which would have certainly run a chord with a religious minority of ethnic Germans. That was not inherently evil, as initially, nobody was suggesting death of Jews, Slavs, Roma, political opponents..etc

Oh they definitely did talk about the annihilation of political opponents, at least (communists). Even before they rose to power Nazi groups had violent conflicts with them. They also had an ideology of social engineering and darwinism that from the very beginning implied that certain races and disabled people should somehow "not procreate" and "not mix" in their society (of course that initially didn't mean necessarily genocide). Hitler was not a "good Catholic". He barely cared about Catholicism at all, had like many other Nazis a certain fascination with German paganism (a not very "good Catholic" thing), and only participated in rituals and ceremonies for political purposes, as he also did in Protestant ones.

Angela
12-09-18, 21:45
Thanks so much for this post. This ludicrous criticism based on sensationalist bestsellers and TV shows is such a beaten path and so unsubstantiated that I got tired of arguing about it. It seems these people never read much about the Nazi ideology, with its decidedly "non-Catholic/Papist" plans of creating a separate "Nazi Christian church" and especially their neo-pagan leanings.

I didn't even know there are documentaries spouting these absolute falsehoods, but I'm not at all surprised.

The reason for much of this is that the general public is appallingly ignorant of actual history. The schools, even if some of these people attended them, have done a terrible job of teaching even relatively recent history. It's even worse for ancient history. I'm waiting for someone to come on here defending books by that disgrace Dan Brown or those "New Age" idiot Wicca witch people.

Honestly, how does the world continue to function with so many stupid, uninformed people running around.

That's not really an excuse for making such incendiary comments without having made even a rudimentary effort to educate oneself about the era and the ideology.

There are innumerable books and tracts on the subject by REPUTABLE historians. Instead of wasting time on video games and social media, a lot of these people should pick up a BOOK once in a while, written by or after interviews with the actual people who were involved.

I've read dozens of books on this subject and I still think that "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" is excellent. A new version came out a few years ago, and I highly recommend it.

(My daughter came home from work early, took one look at my face, and said, "Calm down, mom, it's not good for your blood pressure! :))

bicicleur
12-09-18, 22:03
I didn't even know there are documentaries spouting these absolute falsehoods, but I'm not at all surprised.

The reason for much of this is that the general public is appallingly ignorant of actual history. The schools, even if some of these people attended them, have done a terrible job of teaching even relatively recent history. It's even worse for ancient history. I'm waiting for someone to come on here defending books by that disgrace Dan Brown or those "New Age" idiot Wicca witch people.

Honestly, how does the world continue to function with so many stupid, uninformed people running around.

That's not really an excuse for making such incendiary comments without having made even a rudimentary effort to educate oneself about the era and the ideology.

There are innumerable books and tracts on the subject by REPUTABLE historians. Instead of wasting time on video games and social media, a lot of these people should pick up a BOOK once in a while, written by or after interviews with the actual people who were involved.

I've read dozens of books on this subject and I still think that "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" is excellent. A new version came out a few years ago, and I highly recommend it.

(My daughter came home from work early, took one look at my face, and said, "Calm down, mom, it's not good for your blood pressure! :))

unfortunately, a mediocre video game sells better than a good book nowadays
and there are so many other brainless distractions, not to mention social media
books are out

firetown
13-09-18, 13:45
you might as well say the KKK is on the rise in the USA


This is completely different. In the U.S., healing came from within. Change came from within. Germans had never turned around to take down the Nazis. This decision was made for them. The laws changed. It doesn't mean that people changed their minds. It means people were suddenly no longer allowed to say what they think about certain matters. And we are not talking about a rise. My argument is that people never changed other than change that was forced.

Non-Germans tend to not see or hear this as laws prevent the vast majority of right-wing sentiments from surfacing. That doesn't mean they don't exist. And it doesn't mean that I need to be surprised when something I always knew to be hiding beneath finally erupts.

Don't dismiss what he has been saying for years:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iORHSA2uSFw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmb5kVywfYs

It beats waiting for the next surprise.

Angela
13-09-18, 16:41
It's not rational to trash an entire people like this, and I don't care if he is German himself. No people as a whole is "without empathy". There is probably a genetic component to most traits, but other factors are involved as well. He's talking about some sort of genetic determinism if you really boil it down.

Plus, the Germans are not one genetic monolithic bloc anyway. In fact, there's more variety than there is in a lot of other groups, as we've pointed out in other threads: East Germans are quite a bit different from southern and western Germans who are again different from northern Germans.

I'm always leery of people who claim to know what "the majority" feel. That's no kind of real evidentiary proof. As for people turning to a strong leader when things go bad, I think that's a danger in a lot of countries. It's not particular to Germans.

To me, he seems to be operating from emotion, not logic.

I have repeatedly stopped people from trashing other nationalities. Germans are not going to be the exception.

epoch
16-09-18, 14:14
The West is paralyzed by their focus on the guilt of WW2. However, the troublesome past of the East is communism, not fascism, which is far away in their eyes, and was a Communist hobby.

That is why people in the East rise against migration far easier.

markod
16-09-18, 16:41
The West is paralyzed by their focus on the guilt of WW2. However, the troublesome past of the East is communism, not fascism, which is far away in their eyes, and was a Communist hobby.

That is why people in the East rise against migration far easier.

I doubt East German right wingers have too many gripes with the DDR as such. Sure, the nominal internationalism is contrary to everything they believe, but this was hardly a concern in day to day life. On the oher hand there were deliberate efforts to bolster a kind of Prussianism, since East Germany would have been the bulwark against NATO in case of a war. Holocaust remembrance and research also were at best discouraged and sometimes dismissed as capitalist propaganda. Prof. Helmut Eschwege for example was one of the most prominent Holocaust researchers in Germany and he was demoted to a janitor at the university of Dresden because the SED didn't like his work :rolleyes2:

Angela
16-09-18, 19:48
I knew it: either incompetence on the part of the Security Chief, or he was in cahoots with them:

He passed along a secret report to the far right Alternative for Germany.

Why does he still have a job?
https://twitter.com/dw_politics/status/1040174587315675136

Returns east vs west:
""In east Germany, the AfD has been twice as strong as in west Germany. This shows that the voting behavior is much more volatile there and that many citizens in the east feel insecure," says Eckhard Jesse, (https://www.tu-chemnitz.de/phil/politik/pspi/jesse/jesse.php) a political scientist and one of the leading experts on extremism research in Germany. "After more than 25 years of reunification, they [still] feel like second-class citizens."The election highlighted a deep divide between Germany's east and west, following the lines of where the Iron Curtain once stood."

""Although Merkel herself is from the east, the frustration there is considerable," Jesse says. "People feel like they are not appreciated, particularly when compared to what they perceive as so much being done for the refugees. This strikes many as unfair when they have worked so hard for the last 27 years in East Germany. It is a feeling of being left behind."


"The east, he says, has seen fewer immigrants than the west. Germans in the east "have not been used to living in a multicultural society," he says. "That is why it has been relatively easy in East Germany for the AfD to define foreigners as responsible" for economic hardship and other difficulties. "If you feel like a loser," he says, "you look for someone to blame.""

https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2017/09/26/553698504/german-election-results-highlight-old-divides-between-east-and-west

Some see deeper historical roots:
"Stunning clarity about the West-East divide in Germany: AfD #1 in East, #4 in West. The Elbe is Germany‘s Mason-Dixon Line, but far older."

bicicleur
16-09-18, 20:59
I knew it: either incompetence on the part of the Security Chief, or he was in cahoots with them:

He passed along a secret report to the far right Alternative for Germany.

Why does he still have a job?

because there is no proof ?

Hans-Georg #Maassen, president of Germany's domestic secret service, allegedly passed on sensitive data from a report to the far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD). The spy chief has already faced calls to resign.

firetown
16-09-18, 23:50
The West is paralyzed by their focus on the guilt of WW2. However, the troublesome past of the East is communism, not fascism, which is far away in their eyes, and was a Communist hobby.

That is why people in the East rise against migration far easier.
It sounds reasonable. But as you may have noticed, this entire thread is based on speculations. You don't know what the citizens of East Germany may have harbored or passed on. And Communism and Naziism really have not that much of a differentiation other than what the top 1 percent has decided.

bicicleur
17-09-18, 12:24
I knew it: either incompetence on the part of the Security Chief, or he was in cahoots with them:

He passed along a secret report to the far right Alternative for Germany.

Why does he still have a job?
https://twitter.com/dw_politics/status/1040174587315675136

Returns east vs west:
""In east Germany, the AfD has been twice as strong as in west Germany. This shows that the voting behavior is much more volatile there and that many citizens in the east feel insecure," says Eckhard Jesse, (https://www.tu-chemnitz.de/phil/politik/pspi/jesse/jesse.php) a political scientist and one of the leading experts on extremism research in Germany. "After more than 25 years of reunification, they [still] feel like second-class citizens."The election highlighted a deep divide between Germany's east and west, following the lines of where the Iron Curtain once stood."

""Although Merkel herself is from the east, the frustration there is considerable," Jesse says. "People feel like they are not appreciated, particularly when compared to what they perceive as so much being done for the refugees. This strikes many as unfair when they have worked so hard for the last 27 years in East Germany. It is a feeling of being left behind."


"The east, he says, has seen fewer immigrants than the west. Germans in the east "have not been used to living in a multicultural society," he says. "That is why it has been relatively easy in East Germany for the AfD to define foreigners as responsible" for economic hardship and other difficulties. "If you feel like a loser," he says, "you look for someone to blame.""

https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2017/09/26/553698504/german-election-results-highlight-old-divides-between-east-and-west

Some see deeper historical roots:
"Stunning clarity about the West-East divide in Germany: AfD #1 in East, #4 in West. The Elbe is Germany‘s Mason-Dixon Line, but far older."

FYI, Merkel is looking to remove Hans-Georgg Maassen from office, because 'he is unfit for the job',
but nowhere Merkel denies the allegations made by him that some of the video's may not be genuine

he would have ties with the opposition, with AfD
is she looking to replace him with someone who has more ties with her own party?

I agree Hans-Georg Maassen spoke before his time, he should have been more discrete,
but it seems to me the problem is that what he says doesn't fit with what Merkel herself told in the media

https://www.knack.be/nieuws/wereld/merkel-wil-dat-omstreden-baas-van-duitse-inlichtingendienst-opstapt/article-normal-1198551.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=social_knack&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1537177605

Ailchu
17-09-18, 14:22
in the mean time the controversy about the genuinity of the footing with neo-nazis chasing foreigners is going on
the oposition is already demanding Hans-Georg Maassen to resign
why did he tell such things?
was he so stupid to undermine his own position or does he have some genuine indications to doubt the authenticity?

http://www.knack.be/nieuws/wereld/hoofd-duitse-inlichtingendienst-trekt-klopjachten-op-buitenlanders-in-twijfel/article-normal-1194447.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=social_knack&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1536340091

that was probably because the video was coming from an antifa account called "zeckenbiss". it is also not clear what really happened before the video and what happened afterwards. so there is a reason to doubt this video. however that video isn't the main problem anymore as it seems. according to german media there is a lot more evidence for the chasing of foreigners and maassen should not have concentrated on this one video. though everyone else also concentrated on it. its a bit strange that we dont hear from the minister of saxony who said that there was no human chasing in chemnitz.

exceededminimumso..
18-09-18, 09:25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9F9BYTvad0


http://time.com/4955503/germany-elections-2017-far-right-russia-angela-merkel/

Angela
18-09-18, 16:52
http://time.com/4955503/germany-elections-2017-far-right-russia-angela-merkel/

Interesting...a different kind of immigrant impact.

Ailchu
18-09-18, 20:14
http://time.com/4955503/germany-elections-2017-far-right-russia-angela-merkel/

that russian speaking germans vote for the afd is wrong. according to a study they gave 15% of their votes for the afd. that is almost the same as the whole population gave to the afd(12.6%). it was probably just false information. probably also intentionally with a political goal.

the ARD, the brodcasting network of the german state, commented the study and said that the % could be up to 5% higher because of "underreporting" in surveys about the afd. but the ARD is also extremely anti-afd with many anti afd experts and reporters. and before this study was released they made a report about how conservative, indoctrinated by russian propaganda, russian germans are and that many supposedly vote for afd.
the first sentences are(my translation) "for decades russian germans were considered as a good example for immigrants. now this has come to an end."

or "the longing for german culture and christian tradition contracdicts the multicultural reality."

Ailchu
18-09-18, 20:53
however we can also turn this around. 35% of german turks voted for spd(20.5% in the whole population), 16% voted for "die linke", "the left",(8.6% in the whole population), 13% voted for "die grĂŒne" "the green one", (8% in the whole population). the second generation voted even more for the left parties.

kurds, who are a subgroup of german turks, voted with 37% for "the left".

bicicleur
18-09-18, 21:57
that russian speaking germans vote for the afd is wrong. according to a study they gave 15% of their votes for the afd. that is almost the same as the whole population gave to the afd(12.6%). it was probably just false information. probably also intentionally with a political goal.

the ARD, the brodcasting network of the german state, commented the study and said that the % could be up to 5% higher because of "underreporting" in surveys about the afd. but the ARD is also extremely anti-afd with many anti afd experts and reporters. and before this study was released they made a report about how conservative, indoctrinated by russian propaganda, russian germans are and that many supposedly vote for afd.
the first sentences are(my translation) "for decades russian germans were considered a good example for immigrants. now this has come to an end."

and are 5 % of German voters of Russian origin? is that correct?

Ailchu
18-09-18, 22:20
and are 5 % of German voters of Russian origin? is that correct?

https://www.uni-due.de/migrantenwahlstudie/
according to the people who made the survey there are 2.4 million german citizens who came from the sovjet union or from former sovjet regions while there are 75 million german citizens in total. 1.5 of those germans with russian origin are able to vote while there are 61 million people who are able to vote in total. so no i don't think that they make up 5% of the voters. if we include all people with a sovjet background, german citizens or not, then we might be at 5% of the total population.

Tomenable
20-09-18, 13:42
In 2016-2017 Germany accepted 1.9 million foreigners. Poland during the same time took 1.2 million (in vast majority Ukrainians). Germany has 82 million people in total, Poland 38 million. So, proportionally to total population, Poland has more of recent immigrants.

Source: http://wiadomosci.dziennik.pl/historia/aktualnosci/artykuly/581204,imigranci-migracja-wenezuelczycy-polska-demografia-historia-rzad-osadnicy.html

In Germany recent immigration causes political upheaval and protests. In Poland, no such problems. Why is that?

Tomenable
20-09-18, 13:49
https://www.uni-due.de/migrantenwahlstudie/
according to the people who made the survey there are 2.4 million german citizens who came from the sovjet union or from former sovjet regions while there are 75 million german citizens in total.

Aren't they mostly ethnic Germans from Russia, though?

On the other hand, most of them are not fully German.

For example on another forum there is a user from Russia who is 6/8 ethnic Russian and only 1/8 German (his grandfather is 1/2 German from Latvia and Estonia in what was then the Russian Empire) and he is eligible to get the status of "Spätaussiedler" of ethnic German origin in Germany. :thinking:

The same user from Russia is also 1/8 Polish (two grandparents 1/4 Polish each). However, according to Polish law you have to be at least 1/4 Polish (either one Polish grandparent or two Polish great-grandparents) in order to be legally recognized as a "person of Polish origin":

https://www.lexlege.pl/ustawa-o-repatriacji/art-5/

So he is not eligible to get Karta Polaka (Pole's Card): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karta_Polaka

On the other hand, it is not so much about "blood" but rather about identity (you have to prove that one of your grandparents or two of your great-grandparents are/were people who identify as part of the "Polish Nation"). But I think in German law it is also about identity of ancestors.

bicicleur
20-09-18, 14:25
https://www.uni-due.de/migrantenwahlstudie/
according to the people who made the survey there are 2.4 million german citizens who came from the sovjet union or from former sovjet regions while there are 75 million german citizens in total. 1.5 of those germans with russian origin are able to vote while there are 61 million people who are able to vote in total. so no i don't think that they make up 5% of the voters. if we include all people with a sovjet background, german citizens or not, then we might be at 5% of the total population.

and Sovjet Union is not the same as Russian

in short, this is fake news

firetown
23-09-18, 15:27
Niklas Frank has the same right to speak as the writers of the Guardian article that you have quoted.


It's not rational to trash an entire people like this, and I don't care if he is German himself. No people as a whole is "without empathy". There is probably a genetic component to most traits, but other factors are involved as well. He's talking about some sort of genetic determinism if you really boil it down.

Plus, the Germans are not one genetic monolithic bloc anyway. In fact, there's more variety than there is in a lot of other groups, as we've pointed out in other threads: East Germans are quite a bit different from southern and western Germans who are again different from northern Germans.

I'm always leery of people who claim to know what "the majority" feel. That's no kind of real evidentiary proof. As for people turning to a strong leader when things go bad, I think that's a danger in a lot of countries. It's not particular to Germans.

To me, he seems to be operating from emotion, not logic.

I have repeatedly stopped people from trashing other nationalities. Germans are not going to be the exception.

firetown
23-09-18, 15:28
My guess: It has to do with properly vetting people.

In 2016-2017 Germany accepted 1.9 million foreigners. Poland during the same time took 1.2 million (in vast majority Ukrainians). Germany has 82 million people in total, Poland 38 million. So, proportionally to total population, Poland has more of recent immigrants.

Source: http://wiadomosci.dziennik.pl/historia/aktualnosci/artykuly/581204,imigranci-migracja-wenezuelczycy-polska-demografia-historia-rzad-osadnicy.html

In Germany recent immigration causes political upheaval and protests. In Poland, no such problems. Why is that?

Angela
23-09-18, 16:22
Niklas Frank has the same right to speak as the writers of the Guardian article that you have quoted.

Stop with the illogical straw man arguments. Who said he doesn't have the right to speak????

Piro Ilir
27-09-18, 14:00
Far right and far left whether, always were and are present in Europe. Why Germany would be an exception!

halfalp
27-09-18, 20:56
The real reality about East germany, or more accurately, east german Landers, they have the highest unpemployement rate of germany. The dont have work, they dont have a lot of money and they see the governement welcome immigrants for a reason that only George Soros knows, and get money without working. Put yourself at their place, they are native and their own people are helping peoples who are strangers to them about every single details but being homo sapiens, they dont bring anything positive but low salary employement. Wich once again only concerns George Soros and some individuals. Why am i talking so much about George Soros? He basically founded and capitalized every Pro-Migrants ONG that are working in Europe. Today he made a drastic mistake, he publically called out Hungary and therefore told to all Europeans, why Migrants are here.