PDA

View Full Version : I1 Migration Story



mwauthy
06-09-18, 21:40
I1 more than likely has a Scandinavian origin and most of the early subclades probably do as well. The purpose of this thread is to give your opinion as to when, how, and with which subclade your paternal ancestor left Scandinavia (unless they are still living there).
I think that my mutations of I1-DF29-Z58-Z59-Z2041-Z2040-Z382-S26361-S16414-S22349-FGC24357 all have a Scandinavian origin (Denmark/Southern Sweden) and they can still be found there today. I think that between (0-500 CE) FGC24347 and S10350 left Denmark/Northern Germany/Frisia with either the Jutes, Angles, Saxons, or Frisians because those subclades no longer have matches in Scandinavia and are mostly found in the British Isles. My paper trail is Wallonia Belgium in 1663 CE. However, there is a family legend that our family migrated from the British Isles near the time of the religious wars in Europe.
What is your theory on your I1 migration story?

Kaj Rosling
08-09-18, 15:01
A Swedish book (Bojs and Sjölund, Svenskarna och deras fäder, 2016) that is based on the (FamilyTree) analyses of the full genomes of 3000 contemporary Swedes concludes that Y-haplogroup I1 (=I-M253) arrived in great number into Scandinavia from the proximity of Halle (at Saale) in northern Germany beginning in the 16th century BC (the book also claims that I1 originated in this area about 3000 BC).
Incidentally, Halle also happens to be where W. Euler (Sprache und Herkunft der Germanen, 2009) places his Germanic "Urheimat", i.e. the linguistic root of Germanic that explains its Italic influences (Italic tribes dwelled in Bohemia south of Halle). Halle was the northern center of the leading Bronze Age Unetice culture, which is associated with the Sky Disc of Nebra and the impressive mound in Leubingen. The Unetice culture disappeared suddenly in the beginning of the 16th century BC, which fact can have motivated the emigration to Scandinavia where also new business opportunities opened with European demand for amber (available at the Baltic coasts). As a consequence of the immigration, the Nordic Bronze Age exploded in the 16th century BC as though "everything was put in place at once" (sv.Wikipedia).
Thus, it seems that I1 developed in a quite dramatic way: They began as European hunter-gatherers who joined the agricultural society and many centuries later some of them joined the Indo-European band-wagon so successfully that they could establish a clan of their own in the northern Unetice culture where they learnt bronze technology and built the Leubingen mound. When this culture disintegrated they buried the Sky Disc of Nebra and went to Scandinavia where they triggered the Nordic Bronze Age and took part in the creation of Germanic.

mwauthy
08-09-18, 18:42
A Swedish book (Bojs and Sjölund, Svenskarna och deras fäder, 2016) that is based on the (FamilyTree) analyses of the full genomes of 3000 contemporary Swedes concludes that Y-haplogroup I1 (=I-M253) arrived in great number into Scandinavia from the proximity of Halle (at Saale) in northern Germany beginning in the 16th century BC (the book also claims that I1 originated in this area about 3000 BC).
Incidentally, Halle also happens to be where W. Euler (Sprache und Herkunft der Germanen, 2009) places his Germanic "Urheimat", i.e. the linguistic root of Germanic that explains its Italic influences (Italic tribes dwelled in Bohemia south of Halle). Halle was the northern center of the leading Bronze Age Unetice culture, which is associated with the Sky Disc of Nebra and the impressive mound in Leubingen. The Unetice culture disappeared suddenly in the beginning of the 16th century BC, which fact can have motivated the emigration to Scandinavia where also new business opportunities opened with European demand for amber (available at the Baltic coasts). As a consequence of the immigration, the Nordic Bronze Age exploded in the 16th century BC as though "everything was put in place at once" (sv.Wikipedia).
Thus, it seems that I1 developed in a quite dramatic way: They began as European hunter-gatherers who joined the agricultural society and many centuries later some of them joined the Indo-European band-wagon so successfully that they could establish a clan of their own in the northern Unetice culture where they learnt bronze technology and built the Leubingen mound. When this culture disintegrated they buried the Sky Disc of Nebra and went to Scandinavia where they triggered the Nordic Bronze Age and took part in the creation of Germanic.
Thanks for the reply! A lot of interesting details. It might explain why no ancient I1 dna has been found in Scandinavia prior to the Nordic Bronze Age.

However, the TMRCAs of some of the earlier subclades of I1 are older than the Nordic Bronze Age and are primarily found in Scandinavia today. I wonder if the actual TMRCAs might actually be younger than currently listed.

Adrian Stevenson
09-09-18, 12:27
Interesting indeed, thanks for the post Kaj.

Cheers, Ade.

ToBeOrNotToBe
09-09-18, 15:20
I think it can best be associated with the Funnelbeaker culture.

MOESAN
09-09-18, 19:33
Thanks for the reply! A lot of interesting details. It might explain why no ancient I1 dna has been found in Scandinavia prior to the Nordic Bronze Age.

However, the TMRCAs of some of the earlier subclades of I1 are older than the Nordic Bronze Age and are primarily found in Scandinavia today. I wonder if the actual TMRCAs might actually be younger than currently listed.

Really, a Y-lineage can be born in a place and become denser later in another place ; it can occur too with a subclade of this lineage showing an ancient stage of this lineage (SNP mutation kept without any new mutation, or any knew new mutation) - many factors can play on the disparition or the conservation of a SNP in a specific stage, I think: hazard + pop size, and pop dynamic and???.
So this question of TMRCAs is not so indicative of origin here.

I1a3_Young
11-09-18, 16:24
A Swedish book (Bojs and Sjölund, Svenskarna och deras fäder, 2016) that is based on the (FamilyTree) analyses of the full genomes of 3000 contemporary Swedes concludes that Y-haplogroup I1 (=I-M253) arrived in great number into Scandinavia from the proximity of Halle (at Saale) in northern Germany beginning in the 16th century BC (the book also claims that I1 originated in this area about 3000 BC).
Incidentally, Halle also happens to be where W. Euler (Sprache und Herkunft der Germanen, 2009) places his Germanic "Urheimat", i.e. the linguistic root of Germanic that explains its Italic influences (Italic tribes dwelled in Bohemia south of Halle). Halle was the northern center of the leading Bronze Age Unetice culture, which is associated with the Sky Disc of Nebra and the impressive mound in Leubingen. The Unetice culture disappeared suddenly in the beginning of the 16th century BC, which fact can have motivated the emigration to Scandinavia where also new business opportunities opened with European demand for amber (available at the Baltic coasts). As a consequence of the immigration, the Nordic Bronze Age exploded in the 16th century BC as though "everything was put in place at once" (sv.Wikipedia).
Thus, it seems that I1 developed in a quite dramatic way: They began as European hunter-gatherers who joined the agricultural society and many centuries later some of them joined the Indo-European band-wagon so successfully that they could establish a clan of their own in the northern Unetice culture where they learnt bronze technology and built the Leubingen mound. When this culture disintegrated they buried the Sky Disc of Nebra and went to Scandinavia where they triggered the Nordic Bronze Age and took part in the creation of Germanic.I think your post is accurate. It's my opinion that Z63 (or most of it) either stayed behind in Germany or almost everyone across the sea with Z63 migrated back. If most of Z63 stayed, this would explain the almost uniform distribution of Z63 in all Germanic groups.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

mwauthy
25-09-18, 15:08
I just received part of my Big Y-500 results namely the STR matches. Based on my STR results and some other information I learned from the administrator of the Z382 project my migration story has been tweaked a little bit.

During the Nordic Bronze Age my I-Z382 ancestor most likely was living near Southwest Sweden. During the Viking Age one of my paternal ancestors most likely emigrated to the British Isles with the Dano-Swedish Vikings of the 9th and 10th centuries. Almost all of my STR matches in the 39-23 generations range have British Isles surnames.

Around 600-500 years ago one of my British Isles ancestors emigrated to Northern France or Wallonia Belgium. I have one Y-111 match about 16 generations old with a different French origin surname than my own. About 100-150 years later my paper trail begins in 1663 Wallonia, Belgium. For the longest time I thought my I1 from Wallonia was Frankish in origin but based on the latest scientific evidence it seems that it is most likely not possible

I1a3_Young
26-09-18, 19:04
Very cool to learn such things

Sent from my SM-G935V using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Adrian Stevenson
27-09-18, 08:55
Great news!

Ivar of Rasa Bol
14-10-19, 22:24
Jag tackar Kaj, det var mycket itressant att läsa :good_job:

triaucourt
25-10-19, 19:07
Very interesting, indeed.
A couple of humble inputs - I am not a specialist, and have tried to find my way throughout the various available scientific studies.

Migration of I1 is a frustrating issue because of the lack of genetic traces between the end of the last glaciation (roughly 10000 years ago) when I1 moved out of refuges in southern Europe (Balkans?) and its rapid expansion in Northern Europe, starting roughly 3800 years ago, with one individual who fathered I1-DF29, who seems to be the common ancestor of most I1 living today.
It seems that there is no clear idea - not speaking of clear evidence - about the journey of I1 from Southern Europe to Northern Europe, only some speculative and even contradictory ones.

However, we may construe that some moved step by step northward, may be following the animals they were hunting, as the climate was improving.

If we start from there, it is very probable that I1 first arrived in Northern Germany and later moved into Scandinavia. Here comes the Denmark issue. It is now and for good reasons considered a Scandinavian country, but in those days, this concept did not exist and there was neither difference nor natural barrier between Northern Germany and Denmark. From there, expansion could have taken place in various directions, in particular Scandinavia namely Sweden, Norway.

As far as I am concerned, I am Z58, Z59, Z60, CTS 7362, CTS 9352 (Genographic I test). I gather from what I read that they were most probably located in Northern Germany / Denmark.

My family is French, present at least since 1550 (3 individuals, probably related) in the Meuse river area, 40 km west of it. Some Viking raided the region but did not settle. It is more likely that my ancestors came from Germany either hired by Romans for their army or taken as slaves, or took part in barbaric invasions during and after the fall of the Roman Empire. The area was barely populated until the Franks settled there. My family surname was already in use during the Middle age in that area; it is a French one.


Triaucourt (Paris, France)