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bicicleur
08-09-18, 20:36
this is all I have

https://scontent.fbru2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36772328_10156685694546802_889485124251418624_n.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=c1ee282dfa637b24d72836dccbd2a691&oe=5C278B76

who has more?

bicicleur
08-09-18, 20:42
no surprises in this introduction
obsidian from Capadocia went into the Eastern Caucasus and the Levant, and domesticates and cereals came the other way
it was trade, not demic diffusion that brought agriculture to Capadocia and the Konya plain
and yes, these guys also had contacts with the Villabrunans prior to their expansion into Europe
that is how geometric microliths and the bow and arrow got into Europe

bicicleur
08-09-18, 20:53
omrak 2016 :

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gulsah_Dal_Kilinc/publication/305882765/figure/fig1/AS:[email protected]/Geographical-Location-and-Timeline-of-Ancient-Individuals-Included-in-This-Study-Map.png

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gulsah_Dal_Kilinc/publication/305882765/figure/fig2/AS:[email protected]/Admixture-Analysis-and-Genetic-Affinities-among-Neolithic-Chalcolithic-Populations-A.png

mtDNA

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gulsah_Dal_Kilinc/publication/305882765/figure/tbl1/AS:[email protected]/Summary-Statistics-of-the-Sequencing-Data-for-Nine-Ancient-Individuals.png

Y-DNA was G2a and one C1a2

Angela
09-09-18, 02:32
The Kilinc PCA is very interesting in this regard.

See:
https://i.imgur.com/ak7NR8g.png

If the epipaleolithic sample is from around Boncuklu, you can see how Tepecik is already pulled both south and toward CHG/Iran Neo type populations. Here, Kumtepe from near the future site of Troy, and Barcin, are slightly "south" (some Levant Neo coming in?), but not pulled as much towards Iran*. Did that Iran Neo like ancestry in the southern areas like Tepecik come perhaps from Mesopotamia area populations?

Do the dates support this?

It will be interesting to see the analysis in this upcoming paper.

For my own pet interests, interesting to me how Sicily and Southern Italy sort of nestle in between Boncuklu and Tepecik. Remedello is really not all that far from Northern Italy today, but what migrations produced that result I'm waiting for more ancient dna to answer.

In this PCA, also, Otzi is NOT pulled more toward CHG/Iran Neo than samples like the Hungarian Neolithic.

One last thing occurs to me. For all that the emphasis is always on the fact that the EEF were descended from the Anatolian Neolithic, they are closer to modern Levantine populations like the Lebanese than they are to the Turks. Of course, that Central Asian ancestry in the Turks may have something to do with that.

Anyone have the data on the Greek Neolithic handy? Weren't they more "south" as well of populations like Boncuklu, or am I misremembering?

davef
09-09-18, 03:02
Quoting you, Angela:
"For my own pet interests, interesting to me how Sicily and Southern Italy sort of nestle in between Boncuklu and Tepecik. Remedello is really not all that far from Northern Italy today, but what migrations produced that result I'm waiting for more ancient dna to answer."

I was going to point that out myself!!!!! In fact southern Italy and Sicily are the closest modern populations to Boncuklu, and Barcin (plus some of the Tepeciks). That's really cool!

edit: hopefully I'm not reading this thing wrong, the faded out blurry symbols are hard to see

elghund
09-09-18, 03:43
My prediction:

I believe the Epipaleolithic Anatolian haplogroups will be very similar to these numbers:
https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/haplogroups_of_neolithic_farmers.shtml

K1a4, K1c, J1c, H1, and T2b will be heavily represented.

For the paternal haplogroups: G2a, followed distantly by I2a and E1b1b.

bicicleur
09-09-18, 08:44
Ted Kendall thinks the 15 ka is from Direkli cave, that would be to the southeast of Tepecik, and Asikli Hoyuk.

http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=23816

And there seems to be also Levantine PPN DNA :

'Ted Kandell :

'Eva, are these remains of the Epipaleolithic hunter-gatherer from Direkli Cave, and from Aşıklı Höyük? Are the Levantines from Tell Halula, Tell Ramad, and Kfar HaHoresh?'

Asikli Hoyuk is the oldest PPN settlement in Capadocia, when it was abondonned, Catal Hoyuk was founded 150 km further west with very similar architecture.

P.S. the mother Godess in Direkli cave is 16 ka, predates agriculture by far, it is HG

bicicleur
09-09-18, 08:47
The Kilinc PCA is very interesting in this regard.

See:
https://i.imgur.com/ak7NR8g.png

If the epipaleolithic sample is from around Boncuklu, you can see how Tepecik is already pulled both south and toward CHG/Iran Neo type populations. Here, Kumtepe from near the future site of Troy, and Barcin, are slightly "south" (some Levant Neo coming in?), but not pulled as much towards Iran*. Did that Iran Neo like ancestry in the southern areas like Tepecik come perhaps from Mesopotamia area populations?

Do the dates support this?

It will be interesting to see the analysis in this upcoming paper.

For my own pet interests, interesting to me how Sicily and Southern Italy sort of nestle in between Boncuklu and Tepecik. Remedello is really not all that far from Northern Italy today, but what migrations produced that result I'm waiting for more ancient dna to answer.

In this PCA, also, Otzi is NOT pulled more toward CHG/Iran Neo than samples like the Hungarian Neolithic.

One last thing occurs to me. For all that the emphasis is always on the fact that the EEF were descended from the Anatolian Neolithic, they are closer to modern Levantine populations like the Lebanese than they are to the Turks. Of course, that Central Asian ancestry in the Turks may have something to do with that.

Anyone have the data on the Greek Neolithic handy? Weren't they more "south" as well of populations like Boncuklu, or am I misremembering?

15 ka HG should look more like Boncuklu than Tepecik.
Tepecik had already some individuals admixed with Iran Neo.

bicicleur
09-09-18, 08:52
there should be more to come :

https://www.dailysabah.com/history/2018/01/08/turkish-scientists-granted-29m-to-pioneer-neolithic-era-anatolian-dna-study

The European Research Council (ERC) has given Turkish scientists a €2.5 million ($2.9 million) grant for the DNA analysis of 1,500 people who lived in the Anatolian region -- present-day Turkey's Asian part -- during the Neolithic period.

Mehmet Somel, a professor of biological sciences at the Ankara-based Middle East Technical University (ODTU), told Anadolu Agency on Monday that they would work with archaeologists, biologists and anthropologists in their project named 'Neogene.'

The study will cover the period from 10,000-7,000 BC.

Angela
09-09-18, 17:02
Quoting you, Angela:
"For my own pet interests, interesting to me how Sicily and Southern Italy sort of nestle in between Boncuklu and Tepecik. Remedello is really not all that far from Northern Italy today, but what migrations produced that result I'm waiting for more ancient dna to answer."

I was going to point that out myself!!!!! In fact southern Italy and Sicily are the closest modern populations to Boncuklu, and Barcin (plus some of the Tepeciks). That's really cool!

edit: hopefully I'm not reading this thing wrong, the faded out blurry symbols are hard to see

IF the Omrak analysis is correct, interesting also how much WHG there is in Boncuklu and by implication in Sicilians and Southern Italians, the populations whom "He Who Must Not Be Named" is still maintaining, last I heard, have next to NO WHG.

Ah, sophisticated genetic analysis, i.e. beyond gedmatch Admixture analyses based on modern clusters, is a lovely thing. :) I hate to say it, but even with those limited tools, I did point this out numerous times. :)*

As I also pointed out numerous times in the past, the fact that Levantine admixture sometimes shows up in such more primitive analyses instead of, say, Turkish admixture, MIGHT be PARTLY because the addition of sometimes up to 20% and more Central Asian Admixture in MODERN TURKS takes them out of the running.

*To be completely honest, I DON'T hate pointing it out to certain people and their followers. :)

Falco
09-09-18, 18:25
Anyone have the data on the Greek Neolithic handy? Weren't they more "south" as well of populations like Boncuklu, or am I misremembering?

No specific data, but two PCAs (one academic, one amateur):

https://i.imgur.com/AwZI0f1.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/oYtFFJM.png

So yes, they do appear to be south of Boncuklu and closer to Teplicek and Barcin.

Angela
09-09-18, 19:21
No specific data, but two PCAs (one academic, one amateur):

https://i.imgur.com/AwZI0f1.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/oYtFFJM.png

So yes, they do appear to be south of Boncuklu and closer to Teplicek and Barcin.

Thanks. Have any academics modeled whether Greek Neolithic works for Mycenaeans?

Angela
09-09-18, 19:22
Ted Kendall thinks the 15 ka is from Direkli cave, that would be to the southeast of Tepecik, and Asikli Hoyuk.

http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=23816

And there seems to be also Levantine PPN DNA :

'Ted Kandell :

'Eva, are these remains of the Epipaleolithic hunter-gatherer from Direkli Cave, and from Aşıklı Höyük? Are the Levantines from Tell Halula, Tell Ramad, and Kfar HaHoresh?'

Asikli Hoyuk is the oldest PPN settlement in Capadocia, when it was abondonned, Catal Hoyuk was founded 150 km further west with very similar architecture.

P.S. the mother Godess in Direkli cave is 16 ka, predates agriculture by far, it is HG

Boncuklu is near Konya, and the Direkli Cave is in an area northwest of Karaman, so heading in that direction. The Tepecik sample is from near Nigde if I am getting this correct, so it is quite a bit further east.

https://i.imgur.com/AkgS4eu.png

The Direkli Cave dates to 16 ka and is epi-paleolithic, and the Boncuklu samples date to 10 ka (e 8279-7977 cal BC) and are Neolithic Era. Meanwhile, although the Tepecik sample is dated to about 9.5 ka, the only remains are much younger, belonging to the Pottery Neolithic, although Kilinc doesn't give a precise date.

Interestingly, this Boncuklu sample, which plots the closest to Europe of these Anatolian samples, is very far south in Anatolia, pretty close to the geographical Levant. Barcin is still pretty close to Boncuklu although in the far northwest, indicating perhaps that this group was widespread across a lot of Anatolia at one time, but later changed, pulling toward the Caucasus and further south. There's also variation in Tepecik, with some samples having more CHG/Iran Neo like ancestry than others.

The Kumtepe sample is also interesting. It's close to a few of the Tepecik samples, but those are the ones closest to Boncuklu. I have to refresh my recollection of the Kumtepe samples. How close is this sample in time to Troy? Is there evidence of intervening migrations, and from where?

So, given that the Tepecik samples are a bit different from the Boncuklu samples, is that because the people in that area were always a bit different, or is it because there was migration into Tepecik in the intervening period. If there was, what did they bring to the area?

There is some interesting information in Kilinc:

"The probable span of occupation was 8300-7500 cal BC. The site consists of a series of sub-oval structures with mudbrick superstructures; and extensive intervening open areas [S26]. Buildings have relatively standard domestic features and a highly structured use of domestic space, divided into ‘clean’ and ‘dirty’ areas. Buildings are also reconstructed over a number of generations in the same place, standing as a symbolic testament to the endurance, and social, economic and reproductive success of the household. At Boncuklu the evidence indicates adoption of cultivation by indigenous foragers, sometime before 8300 cal BC [S23]. This interpretation is based on continuities in very specific local technological practices and symbolism in the area and which are seen already c. 9500 cal BC and thus predate domestic plants in the Konya Plain by 1000 years [S26]. These plants were presumably introduced to the plain in the first instance as part of the far-reaching interactions in the 10th and 9th millennium, which have been documented at earlier and contemporary Pınarbaşı, as well as Boncuklu itself.

"Tepecik-Çiftlik is located in the Melendiz/Çiftlik Plain which is surrounded by the Melendiz Volcanic Mountains, lying along the southwest of the Volcanic Cappadocia region and the southern part of Central Anatolia [S33]. The occupation at the settlement probably continued uninterrupted from the Aceramic Neolithic Period until the early Chalcolithic Period, i.e. between 7500-5800 cal BC. The presence of yet unexcavated levels shows that the initial date of the settlement at the höyük predates 7500 BC. The Aceramic Neolithic levels do not contain architectural remains. In the Pottery Neolithic levels (5-4) the settlement layout consisted of wide open areas and single large structures but in the final Neolithic level (3) the settlement layout changed as the open areas were replaced by different types of structures. Utilization of domestic animals occurred in the Neolithic period at Tepecik-Çiftlik but hunting of wild fauna was still practiced and during the end of the Neolithic Period hunting, in fact, gained significance in the subsistence. During the Neolithic Period, alongside agriculture, intensive gathering also continued. The pottery at Tepecik-Çiftlik is the oldest in the region and of significant importance is its closeness to the Göllüdağ and other obsidian ore beds in the region. Obsidian as a raw material played a significant role in all of Near East and during the entire Neolithic Period for tools and arms production and there was a demand for obsidian tools and arms in many areas [S31]. Intensive obsidian tool production occurred at Tepecik-Çiftlik and also other Volcanic Cappadocia sites such as Yapılıpınar, Çakılbaşı, “Kayırlı Girişi/Sapağı”, Bunuş and Nuzla. The obsidian tool and arms production “industry” in the region may have resembled “commodity” production.


The general characteristics of the mortuary practices at Tepecik-Çiftlik are characteristic of the Aceramic Neolithic of the Near East [S36].

Perhaps what was brought was animal domestication and pottery? Yet, the burials didn't change?

See Kilinc et al: Excellent paper.

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdfExtended/S0960-9822(16)30850-8

Papers on Tepecik:
https://www.tepecik-ciftlik.org/pubs

bicicleur
09-09-18, 20:20
Tepecik is only 25 km from Asikli Hoyuk, and both are near the Hasan Dag volcano.
Tepecik was the most important producer of obsidian in the whole Middle East.
When Tepecik was founded, it was in a lake that was turning into dry land, exposing the rich obsidian fields.
Asikli Hoyuk and Bonuklu were abondonned, Catal Hoyuk was founded, only some 15 km from Bocuklu.
I don't think this neolithic population stretched all over Anatolia, it was confined to Capadocia and the Konya plain.
Ca 7.7 ka Catal Hoyuk was abondonned too, and much of the area became depopulated.

I checked, Direkli cave is quite a bit further east indeed, but also still quite far away from the Upper Euphrates.
I must have been near the 'obsidian route' where obsidian was traded.

http://www.archatlas.org/ObsidianRoutes/Slide1.jpg

try google translation on this, and read it slow, it is interesting :
https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tepecik_%E2%80%93_%C3%87iftlik_H%C3%B6y%C3%BC%C4%9 F%C3%BC

markod
09-09-18, 20:28
omrak 2016 :

Y-DNA was G2a and one C1a2

I had never noticed this C1a2. That could have come from Europe via Epigravettian or Magdalenian contacts, or maybe even earlier. The mtDNA looks completely local however.

bicicleur
09-09-18, 21:31
I had never noticed this C1a2. That could have come from Europe via Epigravettian or Magdalenian contacts, or maybe even earlier. The mtDNA looks completely local however.

Gravettian in the Karain or Okuzuni caves, west of Antalya.
Maybe a LGM refuge

http://maajournal.com/Issues/2004/Vol-1/Full1.pdf

bicicleur
10-09-18, 08:19
On September 19th, this study will be presented at the SMBE (ancient DNA conference) in Jena Germany.

markod
10-09-18, 14:25
Gravettian in the Karain or Okuzuni caves, west of Antalya.
Maybe a LGM refuge
http://maajournal.com/Issues/2004/Vol-1/Full1.pdf

Very interesting, thanks.

That reminds me, you had mentioned that according to the newest findings the Anatolian hunter-gatherers already built Venus figurines. I'd always wondered how the Venus cult was suddenly transferred to the Middle East. Before the Neolithic these figurines are most numerous in Central & Eastern Europe, especially in the Ukraine and Germany. With the beginning of the Neolithic they appear everywhere, while before the Natufians didn't have them. Perhaps the European Gravettian had a bigger impact than previously thought, at least culturally.

davef
10-09-18, 15:00
Thanks. Have any academics modeled whether Greek Neolithic works for Mycenaeans?

My guess is tepecik due to it being more Caucasus. Minoans had quite a bit of Caucasus in them and it's probably from this group of people

Angela
10-09-18, 19:29
I've always had a problem with the notion in some people's minds that the "goddess" figurines represent the switch to agriculture. As Marco pointed out, the earliest ones by far are from Europe and were created long before agriculture existed. It was only later that the connection was made.

Any veneration of them before agriculture might have celebrated the fertility of women. One wonders if at first they really connected sex with pregnancy. Even then, it is the woman's body which grows a human, propels it into the world with great pain and at risk to her own life, and then feeds it from her own breasts. The miracle and wonder of it never gets old. Unfortunately, we can see what doing it perhaps fifteen or more times unceasingly can do to a woman's body by the time she reaches old age, although there are women, at least now, whose bodies "spring back", even though the marks are always there.

O Neill
06-10-18, 10:59
What the heck, you cant call it Europe for this time angela ? I got told off for that.
Funny how your all jumping on the Europe bandwagon now the proofs are coming out.
just gloss over it and no one will remember the years of bashing and ridicule.

halfalp
06-10-18, 12:04
I recently read that they've found an Anatolian_HG of 15'000 years old wich was something like y-dna C1a2 and mtdna N1. Someone knows more precisely about this?

MOESAN
06-10-18, 14:48
@Falco

To me, on both PCA's Greek Neol seems very closer to Barcin than to Tepecik, so closer to Levant Neol, but not as shifted towards Iran Neol as are people Tepecik. Your thoughts? Did I miss something (the symbols are uneasy to identify)?

Angela
06-10-18, 15:00
What the heck, you cant call it Europe for this time angela ? I got told off for that.
Funny how your all jumping on the Europe bandwagon now the proofs are coming out.
just gloss over it and no one will remember the years of bashing and ridicule.

I have no idea what you're talking about, nor do I care, so don't bother responding. In fact, I suggest you don't respond. Keep this up and there will be consequences.

SOME people actually follow the data, and NOT their biased, noxious, agenda driven fantasies. Every single thing I ever wrote about the Indo-Europeans was based on fact, on papers, and has been proven to be true. You should try a similar method some time.

Angela
06-10-18, 15:02
I recently read that they've found an Anatolian_HG of 15'000 years old wich was something like y-dna C1a2 and mtdna N1. Someone knows more precisely about this?

Bicicleur just pointed out upthread that it's from Omrak 2016!

I mean, you can't make this stuff up.

halfalp
06-10-18, 20:39
Bicicleur just pointed out upthread that it's from Omrak 2016!

I mean, you can't make this stuff up.

Omrak 2016 is about Barcin and Boncuklu. I'm talking about a very recent sample from Anatolian_HG who was labeled C1a2.

Regio X
06-10-18, 21:11
I recently read that they've found an Anatolian_HG of 15'000 years old wich was something like y-dna C1a2 and mtdna N1. Someone knows more precisely about this?I guees the mtDNA is K2b.

O Neill
07-10-18, 11:23
I have no idea what you're talking about, nor do I care, so don't bother responding. In fact, I suggest you don't respond. Keep this up and there will be consequences.

SOME people actually follow the data, and NOT their biased, noxious, agenda driven fantasies. Every single thing I ever wrote about the Indo-Europeans was based on fact, on papers, and has been proven to be true. You should try a similar method some time.

Well i have no idea what biased, noxious agenda driven fantasies you are talking about.
Do you you mean my thoery of ancient boats ? cant be that that one was correct.
Or could it be the cro magnon highbred = advanced modern human, well that one i got from the bible and mythology of Europe.
Im very sorry if you find mythology toxic but your Papers that you so warmly insist everybody read are open to a complete turnover, Everytime a new paper comes out. You lot seem perplexed as its usually the opposite of what you was expecting.

halfalp
07-10-18, 11:32
I guees the mtDNA is K2b.

Yep that's it, a 13'000 BCE individual labeled as C1a2 and K2b from Pinarbasi.