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Angela
10-10-18, 15:47
bicicleur (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/47449-bicicleur)

A genomic Neolithic time transect of hun
Ancient DNA genome-wide analyses of Neolithic individuals from central and southern Europe indicate an overall population turnover pattern in which migrating farmers from Anatolia and the Near East largely replaced autochthonous Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. However, the genetic history of the Neolithic transition in areas lying north of the European Neolithic core region involved different levels of admixture with hunter-gatherers. Here we analyse genome-wide data of 17 individuals spanning from the Middle Neolithic to the Early Bronze Age (4300-1900 BCE) in order to assess the Neolithic transition in north-central Poland, and the local impacts of hunter-farmer contacts and Late Neolithic steppe migrations. We evaluate the influence of these on local populations and assess if and how they change through time, reporting evidence of recurrent hunter-farmer admixture over three millennia, and the co-existence of unadmixed hunter-gatherers as late as 4300 BCE. During the Late Neolithic we report the appearance of steppe ancestry, but on a lesser scale than previously described for other central European regions, with evidence of stronger affinities to hunter-gatherers than to steppe pastoralists. These results help understand the Neolithic palaeogenomics of another central European area, Kuyavia, and highlight the complexity of population interactions during those times.


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-33067-w

https://media.springernature.com/lw900/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-018-33067-w/MediaObjects/41598_2018_33067_Fig1_HTML.png

https://media.springernature.com/m685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-018-33067-w/MediaObjects/41598_2018_33067_Fig2_HTML.png

Angela
10-10-18, 15:48
markod (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/59233-markod)

Those CWC samples are very diverse internally, with the women pulling closer to the steppe and the men pulling closer to WHG, consistent with their I2a2 haplogroups. CWC seems to have been in serious decline a few hundred years after its explosive expansion. I wonder what caused this.

One is also tempted to believe that the WHGs had some kind of adaptive advantage, seeing how WHG-rich groups managed to bounce back against farmers and herders so many times despite having no particularly innovations to boast of. Perhaps they were strongly selected for physical performance or cold climate resistance.

Angela
10-10-18, 15:49
halfalp (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/50645-halfalp)
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/statusicon/user-offline.pngSo they basically saying in Fig 5. that Anatolian_Neolithic is in fact a fusion between WHG, Iran_Neolithic and Levant_Neolithic. Wich is very new about what i was previously thinking, especially the Iran_Neo into Anatolian_Neo. But then Poland BA and CWC we dont know then if the Levant and Iran Neolithic is just a characteristic bring by or part of Anatolian_Neolithic or if it reflect an other entity. Do this mean that actually Anatolia before the Neolithic was mainly WHG-like with an ancestry Villabruna-Dzudzuana?


MOESAN (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/29830-MOESAN)
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/statusicon/user-offline.pngthis thread is to be fused with the Bicicleur 's one about ancient Poland, in the Neolithic Chalcolithic part, I think.

Angela
10-10-18, 15:51
My apologies to all the posters and especially to Bicicleur, whose thread this is, for making a mess of the merging of these two threads.

MOESAN
12-10-18, 23:58
Is it possible to know the Y-DNA extracted?

markod
13-10-18, 05:41
Is it possible to know the Y-DNA extracted?

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/y-dna-poland.png

ruslan
13-10-18, 20:37
AaDNA from Poland - docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yg8N3s0KOEfYMg6pWKGLkUK6w_IfcKFqUrQCenXx0JQ/edit?fbclid=IwAR3f8nzCLCL4ZnprPf-XgrUqDHecVPDcbJ-OX0VarrDVFy5DHc0jKtp2jqU#gid=0

JajarBingan
13-10-18, 21:00
bicicleur (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/47449-bicicleur)





More interesting to me is to understand how the transition from the BA to the IA and beyond happened. Specifically, how did the population in Poland go from around 25-30% Iran_Neolithic/CHG-minority admixture during the Corded Ware period to around 3% nowadays?

halfalp
13-10-18, 22:09
Hey look at that! Some J1c5 :) My maternal grand mother is from Dresde and i'm J1c5a, not so far from Poland. :)

firetown
13-10-18, 22:46
Hey look at that! Some J1c5 :) My maternal grand mother is from Dresden and i'm J1c5a, not so far from Poland. :)
Interesting. Silesian roots possibly? Dating back to the Scythians? Do you know your blood type?
(I have corrected it to "DresdeN" in the quote assuming this is what you've meant)

halfalp
13-10-18, 23:06
Interesting. Silesian roots possibly? Dating back to the Scythians? Do you know your blood type?
(I have corrected it to "DresdeN" in the quote assuming this is what you've meant)

Dresde is in French, but thanks. Dont really know about my roots in a maternal side, but J1c5 was found in neolithic romania and in neolithic scandinavia if i recall, so it was very wide spread in the neolithic. It probably stationed in northern europe at the times of CWC.

firetown
14-10-18, 00:15
Learned something. :) https://translate.google.com/#fr/de/dresde Thank you.


Dresde is in French, but thanks. Dont really know about my roots in a maternal side, but J1c5 was found in neolithic romania and in neolithic scandinavia if i recall, so it was very wide spread in the neolithic. It probably stationed in northern europe at the times of CWC.

PaleoRevenge
14-10-18, 00:58
Origin of the I2-Dinaric folks, pushed initially west by R1a, later pushed east by I1/R1b Jastorf, end up in western Ukraine when the Scythians collapsed and merged with the local R1a folks to form the Slavs. Ta da.

firetown
14-10-18, 01:03
Origin of the I2-Dinaric folks, pushed initially west by R1a, later pushed east by I1/R1b Jastorf, end up in western Ukraine when the Scythians collapsed and merged with the local R1a folks to form the Slavs. Ta da.
How do you "know"?

PaleoRevenge
14-10-18, 01:04
markod (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/59233-markod)

Those CWC samples are very diverse internally, with the women pulling closer to the steppe and the men pulling closer to WHG, consistent with their I2a2 haplogroups. CWC seems to have been in serious decline a few hundred years after its explosive expansion. I wonder what caused this.

One is also tempted to believe that the WHGs had some kind of adaptive advantage, seeing how WHG-rich groups managed to bounce back against farmers and herders so many times despite having no particularly innovations to boast of. Perhaps they were strongly selected for physical performance or cold climate resistance.




European countries with the highest amount of haplogroup I are the most innovative, energetic and with most self-initiative. Your assessment is amateurish. Haplogroup I were the last of hunter gathers of Europe, but once farming and herding was forced on to them, they became force to be reckoned with.

PaleoRevenge
14-10-18, 01:05
How do you "know"?

Reading from others, using my brain, putting pieces together.

markod
14-10-18, 10:10
European countries with the highest amount of haplogroup I are the most innovative, energetic and with most self-initiative. Your assessment is amateurish. Haplogroup I were the last of hunter gathers of Europe, but once farming and herding was forced on to them, they became force to be reckoned with.

WHG-rich groups just don't seem to have been associated with any of the revolutions of metallurgy and food production at the time. It seems to me that haplogroup I rose after the initial population expansions associated with those new techniques. Hence my question whether the WHGs might have had a physical advantage of sorts. They were the tallest of the ancient groups IIRC.

bicicleur
14-10-18, 10:54
WHG-rich groups just don't seem to have been associated with any of the revolutions of metallurgy and food production at the time. It seems to me that haplogroup I rose after the initial population expansions associated with those new techniques. Hence my question whether the WHGs might have had a physical advantage of sorts. They were the tallest of the ancient groups IIRC.

what is often witnessed is that when farmers settle in HG areas, the HG adopt herding and also some agriculture at a lesser degree, but they also keep on hunting and fishing

they have a more diversified subsistence , they are better equiped to handle climatic or other changes than the specialised sedentary farmers

O Neill
14-10-18, 11:59
Physical advantage You say Markod.

One thing i have noticed lately as the trend of beards has taken off. Does anyone know if any study has been done on beard type/style or growth pattern connected to genes as have other features like hair and eyes ?
It seems to me that I group men can sometimes be found by there beards. Its that hells angel biker look with the 2 bald spots under the bottem lip.
Usually these guys are to be seen as boxers, military, special forces, in general very tough fighting men. I'm not saying that alone but it does stand out as one of there best feature's. That is the Physicality not the beard :)

halfalp
14-10-18, 12:22
I'am R1b, 100% European and i have Sparse Hairs and Beard like an Asian. Funny!

MOESAN
14-10-18, 22:15
@Markod
Thanks!
It's a pity they did not found the Y of the other males; the CWC Y-I2a2, if more sample confirms it, could show us the fusion of Y-R1a CWC and Y-I2a2 GAC...

halfalp
14-10-18, 22:40
So, a little bit off topic but, i've noticed that the sample of this paper were already on uMap, wich is an interactive map of ancient samples. But this map doesn't contain all the ancient samples that we know as today, do anybody knows why?

JajarBingan
14-10-18, 23:47
I'll just mention that unless you are any different from me, you've all had female ancestors too. So, miss me with that beard theory :laughing:

Angela
14-10-18, 23:54
^^Some posts are just better off ignored. They're just too silly.

holderlin
15-10-18, 05:09
Some weird posts in here.

ToBeOrNotToBe
15-10-18, 06:06
markod (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/59233-markod)

Those CWC samples are very diverse internally, with the women pulling closer to the steppe and the men pulling closer to WHG, consistent with their I2a2 haplogroups. CWC seems to have been in serious decline a few hundred years after its explosive expansion. I wonder what caused this.

One is also tempted to believe that the WHGs had some kind of adaptive advantage, seeing how WHG-rich groups managed to bounce back against farmers and herders so many times despite having no particularly innovations to boast of. Perhaps they were strongly selected for physical performance or cold climate resistance.




Big dick energy

bicicleur
15-10-18, 08:08
So, a little bit off topic but, i've noticed that the sample of this paper were already on uMap, wich is an interactive map of ancient samples. But this map doesn't contain all the ancient samples that we know as today, do anybody knows why?

can you provide a link to uMap?

bicicleur
15-10-18, 08:10
more Y-DNA from Vladimir Semargl :


Vladimir Semargl, three individuals from Neolithic Poland, N26, N27, and N28, are all G-PF3345 but ancestral for all G-U1, G-L497, and G-CTS342 SNPs with reads. However, YFull has 4 other single individuals who are in their own basal branches of G-PF3345*. Would it be possible to check these kits for the "novel" YFull SNPs for these other branches? Thanks.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yg8N3s0KOEfYMg6pWKGLkUK6w_IfcKFqUrQCenXx0JQ/edit#gid=1309370204

halfalp
15-10-18, 09:15
can you provide a link to uMap?

http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#4/50.09/46.00

hrvclv
15-10-18, 10:19
http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#4/50.09/46.00

A great tool. Thanks, halfalp.

FIREYWOTAN
16-10-18, 08:39
Thank you for sharing the tracing of Poland's culture. Tracing the steps backward and forward is a reminder of just how much has happening. That at one time would have seemed strange yet seeing it unfold before our eyes is one more reminder that Ancient History is more than old isn't just collected dust. I have to wonder how one piece of any puzzle is enough when so much has come before. Human Evolution has been a process of sytematic transitions and any opportunity to uncove another pieces is beyond existence and has led to settled communities.

Aaron1981
17-10-18, 05:26
Origin of the I2-Dinaric folks, pushed initially west by R1a, later pushed east by I1/R1b Jastorf, end up in western Ukraine when the Scythians collapsed and merged with the local R1a folks to form the Slavs. Ta da.

I2-Dinaric hasn't been found in ancient DNA to date, almost all of the I2 found has been branched under M223. In fact, even the CWC R1a seems more closely related to Scandinavian and western European R1a such as L664 (a rare lineage today, suggesting it was superseded by later R1b- BBC?) The most successful branches of CWC are alive and well in Scandinavia since the Battle Axe culture. (ie: Z284)

I think you'll find R1a-M458 and I2-Dinaric as being the melting pot of Slavic ancestry originating in NW Russia/Belarus ie:Pripet marshes. I know this is politically unpopular, but likely the reality. I would be extremely surprised if I2-Dinaric originated in the Balkans and just happened to expand rapidly from the region all over central-eastern Europe. The historic record, archaeological record, and now the aDNA record does not suggest it.

Ancient Balkan hunter-gatherers were probably R1b-V88 and I2-M223 since the last glacial retreat, and possibly something else even before that, such as C-V20.

Aaron1981
17-10-18, 05:41
more Y-DNA from Vladimir Semargl :


Vladimir Semargl, three individuals from Neolithic Poland, N26, N27, and N28, are all G-PF3345 but ancestral for all G-U1, G-L497, and G-CTS342 SNPs with reads. However, YFull has 4 other single individuals who are in their own basal branches of G-PF3345*. Would it be possible to check these kits for the "novel" YFull SNPs for these other branches? Thanks.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yg8N3s0KOEfYMg6pWKGLkUK6w_IfcKFqUrQCenXx0JQ/edit#gid=1309370204

G-L497 is the common European type just downstream of this, so I wonder if the founder lived somewhere near Poland or in central Europe somewhere. Here I was thinking L497 arrived recently, but maybe only 1-2 of the Neolithic communities needed to leave any descendants, because up to this point, the excavated subclades haven't seemed to produce many descendants in modern day. This doesn't seem the case with L497+, there are many of them, especially in the core of central Europe and southern Europe. Somewhere like Italy or Spain might also be a candidate for the birth of L497+ if not Germany/Poland.

bicicleur
17-10-18, 08:11
G-L497 is the common European type just downstream of this, so I wonder if the founder lived somewhere near Poland or in central Europe somewhere. Here I was thinking L497 arrived recently, but maybe only 1-2 of the Neolithic communities needed to leave any descendants, because up to this point, the excavated subclades haven't seemed to produce many descendants in modern day. This doesn't seem the case with L497+, there are many of them, especially in the core of central Europe and southern Europe. Somewhere like Italy or Spain might also be a candidate for the birth of L497+ if not Germany/Poland.

no,

G-PF3345 PF3345formed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 10700 ybp

G-L497 Z750/CTS8506 * Z744 * Z754/PF6852+47 SNPsformed 10700 ybp, TMRCA 7200 ybp

L497 was born 10.7 ka, that must have been in Anatolia
he expanded 7.2 ka though, probably in Europe

the Polish are PF3345*, certainly a dead end

Pip
03-11-18, 22:44
no,
G-PF3345 PF3345formed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 10700 ybp
G-L497 Z750/CTS8506 * Z744 * Z754/PF6852+47 SNPsformed 10700 ybp, TMRCA 7200 ybp
L497 was born 10.7 ka, that must have been in Anatolia
he expanded 7.2 ka though, probably in Europe
the Polish are PF3345*, certainly a dead end
L497 itself is only one of 47 L497-equivalent SNPs, so might have been the last of these SNPs to arise, putting its age into a confidence interval that might not exceed 4,200 BC (well within the European Neolithic timeframe). STR variance analysis also gives a significantly more recent birth date than SNP variance analysis, possibly bringing L497's true origin date even further forward. Even PF3345's formation date falls within a confidence interval that includes the relatively recent 7,600 BC.

While the Neolithic Polish PF3345 might be a dead end (most ancient samples are), it also seems quite possible that it was the direct ancestor of one or more of the four modern PF3345* samples shown on yfull, particularly as PF3345 is (i) a lone SNP, and (ii) likely to have originated in Anatolia despite all known PF3345* samples (both ancient and modern) being located in Europe.

The important thing to notice is that most, and possibly all, of the branches of PF3345 (and also its immediate ancestor) appear to be wholly located in or to coalesce to estimated origin points in Europe - indeed, quite far into Europe - Poland, North West Ukraine, Norway, Southern Germany. If PF3345 and L497 were spawned in Anatolia, it appears they had little or no impact there, and only came into fruition in Europe.