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Well, this is interesting! Thanks for the input to all.
It's funny that I get two replies saying Sicilian. My mother told me that after she emigrated as a teenager, with her family to Canada, she was repeatedly taken to be Italian or asked if she was Italian. Maybe Tyrol? But, she always insisted that no she is German.
She was born in Trier, Germany as was her mother. My maternal grandfather is also German with family background mainly in the old German territory called Prussia, as far as I know (still not certain as he died very young, and I have had trouble getting exact information about my mother's line). Linguistically, they are all German. There might be Swiss area ties further back on my grandma's side and possible (very slight clue) Sudetenland area on my grandfather's side. But, I don't know any of this for sure yet. I will hopefully get more of a picture and some clues when I receive my 23andme DNA results.
Angela, may I ask what makes you say Czech? I am curious.
My first choice was German, but I thought there might be a bit of a more "eastern" strain there. I have a very good friend whose family is German speaking, from what used to be the Sudetenland, and the family had intermarried a bit with Slavic speakers. She had dark hair and eyes but pale skin, as do I, and when we went out to lunch, or shopping, people often thought we were sisters, or at least related. In actuality, she looked central European, and I look Italian if you really know both groups, but I could see why people thought that.
There's a group I discovered after getting into this hobby, the Gorals, who live in the Carpathians, most of whom look very "Slavic", but some of whom look like her. I just think it's some ancient EEF ancestry rising to the surface, although mixed with other things.
"The Gorals are an ethnographic group primarily found in their traditional area of southern Poland, northern Slovakia, and in the region of Cieszyn Silesia in the Czech Republic."
If I didn't know he was a Goral from Poland I would swear he was Italian.
I can see why people would ask your mother if she was from the Austrian Tyrol, and that's sort of what I meant. They're Austrians, and so Germanic, after all. She could easily pass there, imo.
People don't really know what Italians look like, as per the other thread on guessing a bunch of Italian women, and that's especially true of North Americans. Your mother could "pass" in Northern Italy or Central Italy, but only just. She doesn't look at all Sicilian or Southern Italian to me.
Angela, Wow. There are such striking similarities with the phenotype of some of the Gorals and my maternal family members that I am astounded.
The guy who you wrote is Goral but could be thought Italian, has such similarity to my maternal uncle and my cousin (his son) and of course I can also see how the woman in the first photo does have my mom's look. But, what is really getting me is the photo of a family with three daughters on the left. The girl second from left is the spitting image of one of my daughters, except the eye colour. Other than that she could be her twin, which kind of floors me. My daughter would have my husband's fully Scottish/English in the mix. Add that to my generic German, and one would guess she would have a "not so Central/Eastern European look" anymore, but I have always felt she carried it still somehow. It's a combination of things, but one that stands out after looking at the locals is the nose.
I did some reading on ethnic history in this area and looking up phenotypes. I'm a beginner so I just searched Gorals and also Silesians. From what I see there could be a good chance of some of ethnic brew coming from here. You have a good eye.
Just for clarity, the photo with three daughters on the left is from the Tyrol.
Just for clarity, the photo with three daughters on the left is from the Tyrol.
I did the 23andme kit and uploaded my raw data to GEDmatch Genesis. Here is my K13 Oracle results.
It contains a few happy illuminations as per finding some migration and admixture in my family tree.
My conjectures, based on scant known family history is that the Baltic might come from my maternal grandfather's side (Prussian), but other than that the Baltic is still a mystery for me.
The West Med/Tuscan/Sicilian might be from my maternal grandmother.
The Hungarian and Serb (the latter is a surprise) is obviously from my dad's side as they lived in the Transdanubian area since the mid-1700s.
Kit Num: EV2099920
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.
K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 39.99
2 Baltic 22.87
3 West_Med 14.46
4 East_Med 10.58
5 West_Asian 7.22
6 Red_Sea 2.18
Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.
--------------------------------
Least-squares method.
Using 1 population approximation:
1 West_German @ 4.294094
2 South_Dutch @ 6.113008
3 Austrian @ 8.041118
4 French @ 8.296420
5 East_German @ 10.818999
6 North_German @ 11.585999
7 Hungarian @ 11.922753
8 Southeast_English @ 12.497251
9 Danish @ 13.801004
10 North_Dutch @ 13.920059
11 Orcadian @ 14.498380
12 Southwest_English @ 14.689142
13 Serbian @ 14.788725
14 Irish @ 15.654822
15 Swedish @ 16.148348
16 Norwegian @ 16.229862
17 West_Scottish @ 16.254747
18 Spanish_Cataluna @ 16.442003
19 Portuguese @ 16.995619
20 Spanish_Galicia @ 17.150969
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Romanian +50% West_Scottish @ 2.602191
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Swedish +25% West_German +25% West_Sicilian @ 1.456963
Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Austrian + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Sicilian @ 1.086914
2 French + Italian_Abruzzo + North_Swedish + Norwegian @ 1.239619
3 Austrian + Norwegian + Orcadian + West_Sicilian @ 1.241491
4 Austrian + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + West_Sicilian @ 1.257649
5 Austrian + Swedish + West_Scottish + West_Sicilian @ 1.283994
6 Hungarian + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Sicilian @ 1.311514
7 East_Sicilian + Norwegian + South_Dutch + Swedish @ 1.337555
8 Austrian + Danish + Norwegian + West_Sicilian @ 1.346398
9 French + Italian_Abruzzo + North_Dutch + North_Swedish @ 1.346660
10 East_German + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + West_Sicilian @ 1.351238
11 Austrian + Orcadian + Swedish + West_Sicilian @ 1.354627
12 South_Dutch + South_Italian + Swedish + Swedish @ 1.357394
13 Austrian + Irish + Swedish + West_Sicilian @ 1.383722
14 Austrian + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Sicilian @ 1.386936
15 Austrian + Danish + North_Dutch + West_Sicilian @ 1.431488
16 East_Sicilian + North_Dutch + South_Dutch + Swedish @ 1.437659
17 Italian_Abruzzo + North_Swedish + Southeast_English + West_German @ 1.442919
18 Italian_Abruzzo + North_Swedish + South_Dutch + Southeast_English @ 1.449991
19 Swedish + Swedish + West_German + West_Sicilian @ 1.456963
20 Hungarian + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Tuscan @ 1.458228
************
My maternal grandparents, born in the Kingdom of Prussia.
Grandmother, born 1908
Grandfather, born 1903
# | Population | Percent |
1 | NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO | 26.31 |
2 | ATLANTIC | 20.96 |
3 | SOUTH_BALTIC | 13.26 |
4 | WEST_MED | 11.29 |
5 | EAST_EURO | 10.16 |
6 | EAST_MED | 8.68 |
7 | WEST_ASIAN | 4.44 |
8 | ASHKENAZI | 3.45 |
Most people don't have an "eye" for ethnic phenotypes at all.
That's why they thought the subject of the OP was Sicilian, of all things.
If someone has a prominent nose, or one which dips at the end, or has dark hair and eyes, they can't be British or German. It's silly, but there it is.
I thought of that this evening because I just finished watching an old British series. Such features are by no means unknown among the British aristocratic families.
I don't think you get more English aristocrat looking than Nigel Havers: that's why he plays himself constantly.
Actually, German would probably have been my first choice for your grandfather, largely having to do with the shape of his head and features.
Helmut Kohl
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