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HiveMindTerror
09-11-18, 01:29
I'm genuinely curious if this has been "decided" anywhere by credible researchers.

South Slavs have a different stock of haplogroups than Northern Slavs, and cluster together rather than with other European groups. Clearly we're our own family-branch.

Coincidentally the people with the highest portion of M423 also dwell in what the Romans and Greeks labelled Illyria. Although most people think the Illyrians simply vanished after their Latinization, some kept their ethnic identity for a long time (such as the Barracks Emperors, Belisarius, etc.). I know the Balkans were generally a war-zone for the late Roman Empire and barbarian tribes, but did the Illyrians really just vanish (again)? I mean, Albanians claim to be of that stock but have more in common with Greeks genetically than South Slavs, and Albania was generally a kind of borderline between Illyria proper and Greece (Epirus).

Historically it was said that many Roman cities on the Croatian coast remained free and independent of the "migrant Slavs" and Latin Dalmatian was spoken well into the 1800's (from what I recall). Haplogroup I2 spikes in Dalmatia and Bosnia, one packed with seemingly peaceful Illyrian towns, the other a mountainous escape for natives from invading foreigners.

I mean, from the mosaics of Roman-Illyrian Emperors and Generals in Byzantium, I can definitely see more of a resemblance to many Southern Slavs than I can when comparing typical Bosnians to typical Russians. At the same time there is definitely a Slavic (or whatever northern European tribe) mix in Balkanians for sure, but mainly were we simply Slavicized after the collapse of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires?

Croatians were historically referred to as Illyrians, Serbs were synonymous with Tribalians (Thracian tribe), and Bosnia is named after the Bosona river (an Illyrian word if I recall correctly). I mean people of haplogroup I are noted for being particularly tall, the Greeks and Romans both described Illyrians as particularly tall people.

Can they ever dig up Illyrian bones and sequence their haplogroups?

markod
09-11-18, 02:04
There probably isn't much scholarly interest in such questions. In any case South Slavs are majority Slavic in most cases, as is I2a-Din. Autosomally Serbs seem to be the most Paleo-Balkanic of the Slavs in that they have greater affinity to Albanian and Tuscan populations (though the sample below includes Slavicized groups like the inhabitants of the Sandžak region). To get an idea consider these models, wherin Albanians serve as a proxy for the native population:

Slovenian: 72.5% Polish + 27.5% Albanian Fit: 0.702
Croatian: 70.83% Polish + 29.17% Albanian Fit: 0.52
Bosnian: 59.17% Polish + 40.83% Albanian Fit: 0.7791
Serbian: 40% Polish + 60% Albanian Fit: 0.8004

Y-DNA haplogroups are almost completely Slavic, especially in Bosnia and northern Croatia. The Paleo-Balkanic admixture must have come from women. Exceptions are again the Sandžak populations with their Paleo-Balkanic haplogroup profile and the Serbs who seem to trace ~15-18% of their paternal lineages to a population that could have been Germanic.

Dibran
09-11-18, 06:29
I'm genuinely curious if this has been "decided" anywhere by credible researchers.

South Slavs have a different stock of haplogroups than Northern Slavs, and cluster together rather than with other European groups. Clearly we're our own family-branch.

Coincidentally the people with the highest portion of M423 also dwell in what the Romans and Greeks labelled Illyria. Although most people think the Illyrians simply vanished after their Latinization, some kept their ethnic identity for a long time (such as the Barracks Emperors, Belisarius, etc.). I know the Balkans were generally a war-zone for the late Roman Empire and barbarian tribes, but did the Illyrians really just vanish (again)? I mean, Albanians claim to be of that stock but have more in common with Greeks genetically than South Slavs, and Albania was generally a kind of borderline between Illyria proper and Greece (Epirus).

Historically it was said that many Roman cities on the Croatian coast remained free and independent of the "migrant Slavs" and Latin Dalmatian was spoken well into the 1800's (from what I recall). Haplogroup I2 spikes in Dalmatia and Bosnia, one packed with seemingly peaceful Illyrian towns, the other a mountainous escape for natives from invading foreigners.

I mean, from the mosaics of Roman-Illyrian Emperors and Generals in Byzantium, I can definitely see more of a resemblance to many Southern Slavs than I can when comparing typical Bosnians to typical Russians. At the same time there is definitely a Slavic (or whatever northern European tribe) mix in Balkanians for sure, but mainly were we simply Slavicized after the collapse of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires?

Croatians were historically referred to as Illyrians, Serbs were synonymous with Tribalians (Thracian tribe), and Bosnia is named after the Bosona river (an Illyrian word if I recall correctly). I mean people of haplogroup I are noted for being particularly tall, the Greeks and Romans both described Illyrians as particularly tall people.

Can they ever dig up Illyrian bones and sequence their haplogroups?

There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din. However many South Slavs seem to have an issue with this reality(not saying you). The affinity Albanians share with Greeks is mostly autosomal paleobalkan ancestry. J2b-L283, the parent clade to E-V13 and R1b have all been found in Paleo Balkan remains of Illyrian territory. J2b-L283 specifically in a Proto Illyrian from Dalmatia. All three of these lineages are overwhelmingly found among Albanians and practically minimal in South Slavs. Additionally Mycenaean and Minoan remains were J2a, the variety of which is found predominantly in Greeks and Albanians barely have this haplogroup.

Perhaps Proto Slavs are connected to Dacians and this could leave a slim possibility of I2-Din and R1a being connected to the free Dacians in the Carpathian range. Connecting it to Illyrians is just wishful thinking. While I2 May have been present it surely was not the young clade I2a1b-Din found in south Slavs. Most likely it would be the basal I2a1 or the variety found in Sardinia.

Ownstyler
09-11-18, 10:05
South Slavs have a different stock of haplogroups than Northern Slavs, and cluster together rather than with other European groups. Clearly we're our own family-branch.

Coincidentally the people with the highest portion of M423 also dwell in what the Romans and Greeks labelled Illyria.


You are making a tautological argument there. You're saying South Slavs have I2a, and by coincidence I2a is widespread where Illyrians lived. That's not a coincidence, it's there because of the South Slavs.

Anyway, there is a very nice post on the origins of I2a here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34389-I-CTS10228-Dinaric-subclades-and-distribution?p=554069&viewfull=1#post554069, post 9, by Vlad. The most common clades of the South Slavs today seem to have spread from Ukraine, Belarus and Poland.

hrvat22
09-11-18, 16:57
Slovenian: 72.5% Polish + 27.5% Albanian Fit: 0.702
Croatian: 70.83% Polish + 29.17% Albanian Fit: 0.52
Bosnian: 59.17% Polish + 40.83% Albanian Fit: 0.7791
Serbian: 40% Polish + 60% Albanian Fit: 0.8004

Y-DNA haplogroups are almost completely Slavic, especially in Bosnia and northern Croatia. The Paleo-Balkanic admixture must have come from women. Exceptions are again the Sandžak populations with their Paleo-Balkanic haplogroup profile and the Serbs who seem to trace ~15-18% of their paternal lineages to a population that could have been Germanic.


In northern Croatia there are more E1b haplotype (Albanian, Vlach etc) than in southern Croatia. As well as haplogroups R1b and J2b.


The Paleo-Balkanic admixture must have come from women.

This is possible in southern Croatia but it should be seen in the Y haplotype (it is not visible), women (Ilirian or Vlachs) do not come alone to Dalmatia or remain alone when Croats coming to Dalmatia.

For that reason, northern Croatia is not completely Slavic if we look at the Y haplotype, it is more Slavic in southern Croatia and Herzegovina.

https://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Croatian-national-reference-Y-STR-haplotype-database_.-Molecular-biology-reports-2012.pdf

As for Serbs, they have mixed with Vlachs, historical records speak about Vlachs who largely become today's Serbs, and live a few meters from Albania and Kosovo. Logically they have more Albanian influence and it is now evident in genetics.

hrvat22
09-11-18, 17:17
You are making a tautological argument there. You're saying South Slavs have I2a, and by coincidence I2a is widespread where Illyrians lived. That's not a coincidence, it's there because of the South Slavs.

Anyway, there is a very nice post on the origins of I2a here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34389-I-CTS10228-Dinaric-subclades-and-distribution?p=554069&viewfull=1#post554069, post 9, by Vlad. The most common clades of the South Slavs today seem to have spread from Ukraine, Belarus and Poland.

This is migration of White Croats.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia

markod
09-11-18, 17:19
In northern Croatia there are more E1b haplotype (Albanian, Vlach etc) than in southern Croatia. As well as haplogroups R1b and J2b.

.

This is possible in southern Croatia but it should be seen in the Y haplotype (it is not visible), women (Ilirian or Vlachs) do not come alone to Dalmatia or remain alone when Croats coming to Dalmatia.

For that reason, northern Croatia is not completely Slavic if we look at the Y haplotype, it is more Slavic in southern Croatia and Herzegovina.

https://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Croatian-national-reference-Y-STR-haplotype-database_.-Molecular-biology-reports-2012.pdf

As for Serbs, they have mixed with Vlachs, historical records speak about Vlachs who largely become today's Serbs, and live a few meters from Albania and Kosovo. Logically they have more Albanian influence and it is now evident in genetics.

You're right, I was thinking about south-western Croatia and Rijeka.

I disagree that admixture necessarily shows in the Y-chromosomal haplotypes to a significant extent. In fact this isn't expected at all in male-biased migrations.

gidai
09-11-18, 17:32
After all ... what does the Slav mean?! Haplogrup, whatever it is, I do not think it means... Genetically, they are almost identical to those around them, even if they do not call themselves Slavs.

hrvat22
09-11-18, 17:41
I disagree that admixture necessarily shows in the Y-chromosomal haplotypes to a significant extent. In fact this isn't expected at all in male-biased migrations.

But women do not go alone, if in the south Croatia exist
Paleo-Balkanicgenetic influence and suppose it is from Vlachs or Ilirian influence, where are E1b, J2 and R1b balkan types in south Croatia. If you have scientific work who speaks about Paleo-Balkanic genetic in south Croatia then show it. I suppose it has more Paleo-Balkanic genetic in North and Northwest Croatia, for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

I say this because I have not seen any scientific work for south Croatia, if it is written somewhere I will respect it and then give a new answer when I see results from that scientific work.

markod
09-11-18, 17:47
But women do not go alone, if in the south Croatia exist and suppose it is from Vlachs or Ilirian influence, where are E1b, J2 and R1b balkan types in south Croatia. If you have scientific work who speaks about Paleo-Balkanic genetic in south Croatia then show it. I suppose it has more Paleo-Balkanic genetic in North and Northwest Croatia, for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

I say this because I have not seen any scientific work for south Croatia, if it is written somewhere I will respect it and then give a new answer when I see results from that scientific work.

Ask yourself this: why are Bosnian Croats autosomally closer to Albanians than, say, Kajkavians despite having a more Slavic Y-haploid profile?

The answer is obviously male-biased migration.

hrvat22
09-11-18, 18:03
Ask yourself this: why are Bosnian Croats autosomally closer to Albanians than, say, Kajkavians despite having a more Slavic Y-haploid profile?

The answer is obviously male-biased migration.

In which scientific work writes this?

markod
09-11-18, 18:17
In which scientific work writes this?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/WestEurasia_admixture_crop.png/1200px-WestEurasia_admixture_crop.png

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090#pone-0105090-g002

As you can see, Bosnian Croats are autosomally more southern (i. e. Balkanic) even than Muslim Bosnians. You can test this yourself with more accurate formal models if you want to explore this in more detail.

Tutkun Arnaut
09-11-18, 18:23
south Slavs are fine Europeans. they are my neighbors. the only thing I dont like about them is their sexuality.

EDITED BY A MODERATOR

hrvat22
09-11-18, 18:41
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/WestEurasia_admixture_crop.png/1200px-WestEurasia_admixture_crop.png

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090#pone-0105090-g002

As you can see, Bosnian Croats are autosomally more southern (i. e. Balkanic) even than Muslim Bosnians. You can test this yourself with more accurate formal models if you want to explore this in more detail.


Genetic analysis based upon the variation of Y chromosome haplogroups (hgs) has revealed that the populations of Western Balkan countries share a large fraction of the ancient gene pool of Southeastern Europe, where 70% of the paternal lineages consist of five European-specific hgs: E3b1, I-P37(xM26), J2, R1a, and R1b [31] (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090#pone.0105090-Pericic1). Marjanovic et al. [32] (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090#pone.0105090-Marjanovic1) suggested that the frequency of NRY hg I-P37 observed in Bosnia and Herzegovina is particularly high and could be partially attributed to genetic drift. High frequencies of hg I-P37 are observed both in Bosniacs (Bosnian Muslims) (43.5%) and Bosnian Serbs (30.9%). This shows that different ethnic groups in Bosnia and Herzegovina share a large subset of their paternal lineages, affected by a major demographic event, the post-LGM expansion. A population with a high frequency of I-P37 from one of the refuges, located possibly in the Balkans, played a great role in the peopling of Bosnia and Herzegovina and surrounding areas. Similar results were observed for Croatian populations [ (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090#pone.0105090-Barac1)

This is a scientific paper from 2014, he's out of date. At that time and I2a I-P37 is a Balkanic so we can not make a proper conclusion.

gidai
09-11-18, 18:46
south Slavs are fine Europeans. they are my neighbors. the only thing I dont like about them is their sexuality. They are going in the wrong wholeloool!...
"Torna, torna, Fratre!" :)

markod
09-11-18, 18:46
This is a scientific paper from 2014, he's out of date. At that time and I2a I-P37 is a Balkanic so we can not make a proper conclusion.

The haploid data is irrelevant here - we are talking about the autosomal DNA. As can be deduced from the models I posted above, Bosnian Croats should trace about half of their ancestry to populations that were very similar to present day Albanians.

This is in all likelihood the Paleo-Balkanic signal.

hrvat22
09-11-18, 19:20
The haploid data is irrelevant here - we are talking about the autosomal DNA. As can be deduced from the models I posted above, Bosnian Croats should trace about half of their ancestry to populations that were very similar to present day Albanians.

This is in all likelihood the Paleo-Balkanic signal.

Croats in Bosnia were surrounded by newly arrived Vlachs and marrying with Vlachs women's is possible, but we do not have data for south Croatia. In scientific work are only this data
Croatia (mainland, Zagreb region)

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g001

markod
09-11-18, 19:25
Croats in Bosnia were surrounded by newly arrived Vlachs and marrying with Vlachs women's is possible, but we do not have data for south Croatia. In scientific work are only this data

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g001

Yeah I think that's the Croatian sample I also used in my models. I would be very surprised if Dalmatians weren't more Paleo-Balkanic than Croats from Zagreb though.

Angela
09-11-18, 19:45
south Slavs are fine Europeans. they are my neighbors. the only thing I dont like about them is their sexuality.

Watch your mouth or there will be trouble. You're lucky you didn't get an infraction.

HiveMindTerror
10-11-18, 17:55
The way you're all making it sound is just that we're purely mixed between Slavs and Natives.

Don't understand some of the terminology because I'm a true layman, but thats how ive come to understand all the posts so far.

ihype02
10-11-18, 19:24
I think Serbs Bulgarians and Macedonians are more Native, Croats, Slovenes and Bosnians are more Slavic.

Tutkun Arnaut
10-11-18, 19:30
Watch your mouth or there will be trouble. You're lucky you didn't get an infraction.

sorry! I thought it was a harmless joke!

Ygorcs
12-11-18, 03:52
There probably isn't much scholarly interest in such questions. In any case South Slavs are majority Slavic in most cases, as is I2a-Din. Autosomally Serbs seem to be the most Paleo-Balkanic of the Slavs in that they have greater affinity to Albanian and Tuscan populations (though the sample below includes Slavicized groups like the inhabitants of the Sandžak region). To get an idea consider these models, wherin Albanians serve as a proxy for the native population:

Slovenian: 72.5% Polish + 27.5% Albanian Fit: 0.702
Croatian: 70.83% Polish + 29.17% Albanian Fit: 0.52
Bosnian: 59.17% Polish + 40.83% Albanian Fit: 0.7791
Serbian: 40% Polish + 60% Albanian Fit: 0.8004

Y-DNA haplogroups are almost completely Slavic, especially in Bosnia and northern Croatia. The Paleo-Balkanic admixture must have come from women. Exceptions are again the Sandžak populations with their Paleo-Balkanic haplogroup profile and the Serbs who seem to trace ~15-18% of their paternal lineages to a population that could have been Germanic.


That is very interesting, but I must say I have one strong doubt about this analysis: should we really assume that the pre-Slavic population of the northern parts of the Balkans, like Slovenia, Croatia or even Bosnia and Northern Serbia, were as "southern" autosomally as Albania? I'd expect them to be at least a bit more shifted to Northern/Northeastern Europe in the north-south genetic cline of Europe, though also much more southern-like than the present South Slavic population. Anyhow I certainly think Illyrians in Albania, living in a mountainous region close to Greece, were not necessarily the same autosomally as the and were probably a bit less exposed by Northern European admixture since the earlier antiquity (much like Greece had been much less influenced by Northeastern European/BA Steppe-like ancestry than lands to its north). The relative connections of Illyrian (if Albanian is assumed to be its descendant) with Germanic and Balto-Slavic also lead me to believe that the first Illyrians were probably more Northern European than some of their acculturated descendants more descended from EEF populations, and their impact was lower in the Mediterranean basin (much like Greeks vis a vis Proto-Greeks).

Therefore, of course I'm totally speculating, but I expect that these % of Albanian in the model kind of underestimate the true level of Pre-Slavic ancestry in Northern Balkanic populations, especially in the interior easily linked to the Pannonian plain and the Danubian basin. E.g. a model estimate of 29.17% for Croatians in my totally subjective guesstimate would indicate more likely something on the order of 35-45% of Pre-Slavic ancestry. I have a hard time believing that the Early Slavic population's numbers were so extremely large that they they'd have settled and acculturated lands from Eastern Germany to Russia and down to Bulgaria and even parts of Greece, and yet they'd have extant people enough to cause by themselves an autosomal impact of more than 70% in Croatia and Slovenia, a feat that would've required a massive family migration, not a male-biased immigration and conquest (almost impossible that such a kind of migration would've left such a huge genetic imprint).

What do you guys think about this possibility that many Illyrians (and also Thracians and Dacians, who also lived in South Slavic countries, especially Serbia) were not a homogeneous population ideally represented by modern Albanians?

HiveMindTerror
16-11-18, 22:45
That is very interesting, but I must say I have one strong doubt about this analysis: should we really assume that the pre-Slavic population of the northern parts of the Balkans, like Slovenia, Croatia or even Bosnia and Northern Serbia, were as "southern" autosomally as Albania? I'd expect them to be at least a bit more shifted to Northern/Northeastern Europe in the north-south genetic cline of Europe, though also much more southern-like than the present South Slavic population. Anyhow I certainly think Illyrians in Albania, living in a mountainous region close to Greece, were not necessarily the same autosomally as the and were probably a bit less exposed by Northern European admixture since the earlier antiquity (much like Greece had been much less influenced by Northeastern European/BA Steppe-like ancestry than lands to its north). The relative connections of Illyrian (if Albanian is assumed to be its descendant) with Germanic and Balto-Slavic also lead me to believe that the first Illyrians were probably more Northern European than some of their acculturated descendants more descended from EEF populations, and their impact was lower in the Mediterranean basin (much like Greeks vis a vis Proto-Greeks).

Therefore, of course I'm totally speculating, but I expect that these % of Albanian in the model kind of underestimate the true level of Pre-Slavic ancestry in Northern Balkanic populations, especially in the interior easily linked to the Pannonian plain and the Danubian basin. E.g. a model estimate of 29.17% for Croatians in my totally subjective guesstimate would indicate more likely something on the order of 35-45% of Pre-Slavic ancestry. I have a hard time believing that the Early Slavic population's numbers were so extremely large that they they'd have settled and acculturated lands from Eastern Germany to Russia and down to Bulgaria and even parts of Greece, and yet they'd have extant people enough to cause by themselves an autosomal impact of more than 70% in Croatia and Slovenia, a feat that would've required a massive family migration, not a male-biased immigration and conquest (almost impossible that such a kind of migration would've left such a huge genetic imprint).

What do you guys think about this possibility that many Illyrians (and also Thracians and Dacians, who also lived in South Slavic countries, especially Serbia) were not a homogeneous population ideally represented by modern Albanians?

well according to Dibran;
"There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din. However many South Slavs seem to have an issue with this reality(not saying you)*. The affinity Albanians share with Greeks is mostly autosomal paleobalkan ancestry. J2b-L283, the parent clade to E-V13 and R1b have all been found in Paleo Balkan remains of Illyrian territory. J2b-L283 specifically in a Proto Illyrian from Dalmatia. All three of these lineages are overwhelmingly found among Albanians and practically minimal in South Slavs. Additionally Mycenaean and Minoan remains were J2a, the variety of which is found predominantly in Greeks and Albanians barely have this haplogroup. "

Apparently Illyrian remains don't carry any I2, although I don't know his source on this. Have people dug up ancient burials to research haplogroups and genetics? Also I don't know the what the difference is with autosomal dna and haplogroups.

*I don't think we have any issues with anything, we just want to know. Over the years I've heard it go from: "Oh yeah, Croats are Sarmatians, 100%." Then "Oh yeah Croats are Illyrians 100%." Now it's "Oh yeah Croats are Slavs 100%." Speaking for myself, I just plain want to know where I come from, who my ancestors were. I think the Illyrian theory in particular seems so credible because, as I said in my OP: we're so unique when compared to other European ethnic groups (even Slavs), and are closest to one another genetically. That the only population in Europe who is very closely related, happens to be in a region of Europe where a very unique ancient ethnic group once existed that had their own language and existed only there, just seems very intriguing. Either way, I'm not saying we are Illyrian or whatever, I just want to know. If they dig up Sarmatian burial mounds one day and all the males are I2a I'll be just as cool with that lmao.

Dibran
17-11-18, 03:20
well according to Dibran;
"There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din. However many South Slavs seem to have an issue with this reality(not saying you)*. The affinity Albanians share with Greeks is mostly autosomal paleobalkan ancestry. J2b-L283, the parent clade to E-V13 and R1b have all been found in Paleo Balkan remains of Illyrian territory. J2b-L283 specifically in a Proto Illyrian from Dalmatia. All three of these lineages are overwhelmingly found among Albanians and practically minimal in South Slavs. Additionally Mycenaean and Minoan remains were J2a, the variety of which is found predominantly in Greeks and Albanians barely have this haplogroup. "

Apparently Illyrian remains don't carry any I2, although I don't know his source on this. Have people dug up ancient burials to research haplogroups and genetics? Also I don't know the what the difference is with autosomal dna and haplogroups.

*I don't think we have any issues with anything, we just want to know. Over the years I've heard it go from: "Oh yeah, Croats are Sarmatians, 100%." Then "Oh yeah Croats are Illyrians 100%." Now it's "Oh yeah Croats are Slavs 100%." Speaking for myself, I just plain want to know where I come from, who my ancestors were. I think the Illyrian theory in particular seems so credible because, as I said in my OP: we're so unique when compared to other European ethnic groups (even Slavs), and are closest to one another genetically. That the only population in Europe who is very closely related, happens to be in a region of Europe where a very unique ancient ethnic group once existed that had their own language and existed only there, just seems very intriguing. Either way, I'm not saying we are Illyrian or whatever, I just want to know. If they dig up Sarmatian burial mounds one day and all the males are I2a I'll be just as cool with that lmao.

its not according to me. It’s according to the actual DNA results. A simple google search will bring it up for you. There’s published papers that mention these. Specifically J2b-L283 in specific. If you go to the haplo section for J2 it mentions the sample I am referring to.

Slavs married native women. That explains how native dna was passed down into Balkan Slavs. Paternally you’re Slavic. Technically so is my line. Even though I’m Albanian it probably arrived with Proto Slavs during the Middle Ages. Nothing to be ashamed about.

The only souths Slavs with native paternal Y chromosomes are Bulgarians Macedonians and to some extent Montenegrin and Serbs. However most Serbs, Bosnians and Croats are paternally descended from Slavs in majority.

Theres been no I2a1b in Illyrians. The clade almost all south Slavs belong is exclusively a young downstream clade under CTS10228. The parent of which was found in Motala.

Sarmatian elite were probably R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103. Much of the groups referred to as Sarmatians were probably Proto Slavic any ways. The only Balkan group that could maybe be connected to Proto slavic tribes is Dacians in the Carpathians. Not Illyrians.

Ygorcs
17-11-18, 05:52
well according to Dibran;
"There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din. However many South Slavs seem to have an issue with this reality(not saying you)*. The affinity Albanians share with Greeks is mostly autosomal paleobalkan ancestry. J2b-L283, the parent clade to E-V13 and R1b have all been found in Paleo Balkan remains of Illyrian territory. J2b-L283 specifically in a Proto Illyrian from Dalmatia. All three of these lineages are overwhelmingly found among Albanians and practically minimal in South Slavs. Additionally Mycenaean and Minoan remains were J2a, the variety of which is found predominantly in Greeks and Albanians barely have this haplogroup. "

Apparently Illyrian remains don't carry any I2, although I don't know his source on this. Have people dug up ancient burials to research haplogroups and genetics? Also I don't know the what the difference is with autosomal dna and haplogroups.

*I don't think we have any issues with anything, we just want to know. Over the years I've heard it go from: "Oh yeah, Croats are Sarmatians, 100%." Then "Oh yeah Croats are Illyrians 100%." Now it's "Oh yeah Croats are Slavs 100%." Speaking for myself, I just plain want to know where I come from, who my ancestors were. I think the Illyrian theory in particular seems so credible because, as I said in my OP: we're so unique when compared to other European ethnic groups (even Slavs), and are closest to one another genetically. That the only population in Europe who is very closely related, happens to be in a region of Europe where a very unique ancient ethnic group once existed that had their own language and existed only there, just seems very intriguing. Either way, I'm not saying we are Illyrian or whatever, I just want to know. If they dig up Sarmatian burial mounds one day and all the males are I2a I'll be just as cool with that lmao.

Northern and Central Illyrians could lack I2a-Din (I somehow doubt they lacked I2 entirely, though it could not have been among their main Y-DNA haplogroup), but still be autosomally more northern in terms of admixture distribution than their southern counterparts in Greece, Macedonia and Albania, especially if (as I think it's likely) they had been subject to much more northern influences than people in South Balkans (Illyrians in the northern areas are actually supposed to be part of the Hallstatt cultural zone, for example). They could have just had a different history of success and failure in male lineages, but that does not tell us much about their entire ancestral history (for example Basques are overwhelmingly R1b-L51 and Irish people, too, but the latter have very much more BA Steppe ancestry). I won't say all or even most of that "Polish affinity" can be explained this way, but I'd bet that some of it can.

gidai
17-11-18, 10:09
Here are some data (from LDNA on diferent forums posts).
I do not see any Slavic category ... What is it?

User
Country
Region
East Balkans
West Balkans

Pannonia
Total SEE
Baltics
NE Euro
Fin.,Russia
Mordovia
Total NEE
Aegean
North Italy
Tuscany
South Italy
Sardinia
Iberia
Basque
Total SE
NWE - GB
France
Germanic
Scandinavia
England,Wales
Scotland,Ireland
Total NWE
Armenia,Cyprus
North Turkey
South Turkey
Kurdish
Iran
Caucasus
Levant
Arabia
Total WA
Pashtun
Sindh
Total SA
Siberia
Mongolia,Manchuria
Northeast China
North China
South China
Southwest China
Japan and Korea
Southeast Asia
Total EA
Euro Unassigned
Y-DNA
mtDNA


1
Romania
East
0.0%
0.0%

0.0%
0.0%
3.6%
32.7%
4.8%
4.0%
45.1%
22.1%
3.8%
1.6%
2.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
29.5%
9.4%
9.4%
0.0%
0.0%
8.7%
0.0%
18.1%
0.0%
2.8%
1.5%
1.6%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
5.9%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
1.4%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
1.4%
0.0%
I2a-S17250
T2a1b1a


2
Romania
South
57.0%
3.0%

3.0%
63.0%
0.0%
2.0%
0.0%
0.0%
2.0%
5.0%
0.0%
4.8%
5.0%
0.0%
1.2%
0.0%
16.0%
10.3%
6.0%
3.0%
1.3%
8.7%
0.0%
19.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
G2a-P303
X2e1b


3
Romania
South/West
36.8%
3.6%

4.1%
44.5%
4.7%
0.0%
0.0%
1.6%
6.3%
12.2%
3.8%
8.9%
0.0%
0.0%
3.8%
0.0%
28.7%
2.6%
1.3%
1.3%
0.0%
16.3%
0.0%
18.9%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
1.6%
0.0%
0.0%
1.6%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%




4
Serbia
South
43.7%
7.1%

1.2%
52.0%
8.1%
1.5%
1.9%
0.0%
11.5%
4.7%
4.9%
13.0%
0.0%
0.0%
1.0%
0.0%
23.6%
7.0%
4.2%
0.0%
2.8%
1.9%
0.0%
8.9%
0.0%
2.4%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
1.6%
0.0%
4.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%




5
Serbia
East
9.9%
13.5%

32.5%
55.9%
0.0%
12.9%
1.6%
2.4%
16.9%
0.0%
2.1%
8.5%
2.6%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
13.2%
7.5%
4.6%
0.0%
2.9%
3.5%
0.0%
11.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
2.8%
0.0%
0.0%
2.8%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%




6
Bulgaria
N/A
13.0%
8.0%

6.0%
27.0%
2.0%
5.0%
6.0%
0.0%
13.0%
34.0%
13.0%
1.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
48.0%
3.0%
0.0%
3.0%
0.0%
8.0%
0.0%
11.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
1.0%
1.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%




7
Bulgaria
N/A
18.0%
4.0%

14.0%
36.0%
3.0%
8.0%
0.0%
3.0%
14.0%
12.0%
6.0%
2.0%
12.0%
0.0%
5.0%
0.0%
37.0%
7.0%
3.0%
3.0%
1.0%
3.0%
0.0%
10.0%
0.0%
1.0%
0.0%
1.0%
0.0%
1.0%
0.0%
0.0%
3.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%




8
Bulgaria
N/A
22.4%
11.0%

10.1%
43.5%
2.4%
5.6%
0.0%
3.0%
11.0%
3.1%
3.4%
10.9%
12.9%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
30.3%
8.4%
0.0%
8.4%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
8.4%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
2.3%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
2.3%
4.5%
0.0%
4.5%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%




9
Greece
North/South
43.9%
0.0%

0.0%
43.9%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
14.0%
11.1%
0.0%
3.4%
0.0%
28.5%
3.5%
3.5%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
3.5%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
11.0%
0.0%
6.5%
0.0%
17.5%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
1.9%




10
Greece
North/South
5.5%
1.6%

1.5%
8.6%
0.0%
1.3%
0.0%
0.0%
1.3%
44.1%
3.5%
13.4%
12.3%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
73.3%
12.2%
8.0%
2.4%
1.8%
4.5%
0.0%
16.7%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%




11
Greece
North/South
14.0%
0.0%

0.0%
14.0%
2.0%
0.0%
2.0%
0.0%
4.0%
30.5%
0.0%
10.0%
17.9%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
58.4%
11.9%
3.2%
2.7%
6.0%
1.8%
0.0%
13.7%
0.0%
6.3%
0.0%
1.3%
0.0%
0.0%
2.1%
0.0%
9.7%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%

A1a


12
Greece
South
2.0%
0.0%

2.1%
4.1%
0.0%
0.0%
1.2%
0.0%
1.2%
44.2%
0.0%
11.3%
16.6%
1.7%
1.9%
0.0%
75.7%
7.5%
2.7%
1.4%
3.4%
5.6%
0.0%
13.1%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
2.3%
3.6%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
5.9%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
J1-PF7263
H1


13
Albania
North
0.0%
7.5%

0.0%
7.5%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
65.2%
6.7%
3.0%
4.0%
1.5%
0.0%
0.0%
80.4%
1.3%
0.0%
0.0%
1.3%
6.7%
0.0%
8.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
2.1%
2.1%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
1.9%
R1a-L1029*
H11a2*


14
Albania
South
6.4%
0.0%

0.0%
6.4%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
64.5%
1.3%
7.0%
0.0%
1.5%
0.0%
0.0%
74.3%
3.6%
1.2%
2.4%
0.0%
6.9%
0.0%
10.5%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
2.5%
0.0%
0.0%
2.5%
2.9%
0.0%
2.9%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
3.4%
I-CTS10228
H-15


15
Albania
North
6.2%
12.1%

0.0%
18.3%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
59.0%
7.8%
12.8%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
79.6%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
2.1%
0.0%
2.1%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
E-V13>FGC33625
U1a1a

Gheg
17-11-18, 11:55
That is very interesting, but I must say I have one strong doubt about this analysis: should we really assume that the pre-Slavic population of the northern parts of the Balkans, like Slovenia, Croatia or even Bosnia and Northern Serbia, were as "southern" autosomally as Albania? I'd expect them to be at least a bit more shifted to Northern/Northeastern Europe in the north-south genetic cline of Europe, though also much more southern-like than the present South Slavic population. Anyhow I certainly think Illyrians in Albania, living in a mountainous region close to Greece, were not necessarily the same autosomally as the and were probably a bit less exposed by Northern European admixture since the earlier antiquity (much like Greece had been much less influenced by Northeastern European/BA Steppe-like ancestry than lands to its north). The relative connections of Illyrian (if Albanian is assumed to be its descendant) with Germanic and Balto-Slavic also lead me to believe that the first Illyrians were probably more Northern European than some of their acculturated descendants more descended from EEF populations, and their impact was lower in the Mediterranean basin (much like Greeks vis a vis Proto-Greeks).

Shouldn't we expect some more "northern" signs in their autosomal as well then?


Therefore, of course I'm totally speculating, but I expect that these % of Albanian in the model kind of underestimate the true level of Pre-Slavic ancestry in Northern Balkanic populations, especially in the interior easily linked to the Pannonian plain and the Danubian basin. E.g. a model estimate of 29.17% for Croatians in my totally subjective guesstimate would indicate more likely something on the order of 35-45% of Pre-Slavic ancestry. I have a hard time believing that the Early Slavic population's numbers were so extremely large that they they'd have settled and acculturated lands from Eastern Germany to Russia and down to Bulgaria and even parts of Greece, and yet they'd have extant people enough to cause by themselves an autosomal impact of more than 70% in Croatia and Slovenia, a feat that would've required a massive family migration, not a male-biased immigration and conquest (almost impossible that such a kind of migration would've left such a huge genetic imprint).

Any post-Illyrian population that survived by the time of the arrival of the Slavs was probably nowhere near as large as it once was. Lack of population is probably why the Slavs could settle there in the first place.


What do you guys think about this possibility that many Illyrians (and also Thracians and Dacians, who also lived in South Slavic countries, especially Serbia) were not a homogeneous population ideally represented by modern Albanians?

The shared native Y and autosomal dna among today's south Balkan nations indicate that the previous population was relatively homogenous in DNA at least. DNA, however, can be shared by different nations so let's ignore that for a second and let's focus on the connection you yourself mention of Albanian to German and I'd like to add the well known connection to Dacian (if Romanian is assumed to be it's descendant) as well. I would say this implies homogeneity in that geographic area quite well.

Crya
17-11-18, 14:51
Any post-Illyrian population that survived by the time of the arrival of the Slavs was probably nowhere near as large as it once was. Lack of population is probably why the Slavs could settle there in the first place.

That is a kind of mystery by knowing that Illyrians were warlike people. Now you have Slavs arriving and Illyrians just let them occupy the land without resistance?? That is kinda weird at least to me. Anyone have any idea why is that?

HiveMindTerror
18-11-18, 00:06
They were soft

Ygorcs
18-11-18, 00:57
Shouldn't we expect some more "northern" signs in their autosomal as well then?



Any post-Illyrian population that survived by the time of the arrival of the Slavs was probably nowhere near as large as it once was. Lack of population is probably why the Slavs could settle there in the first place.



The shared native Y and autosomal dna among today's south Balkan nations indicate that the previous population was relatively homogenous in DNA at least. DNA, however, can be shared by different nations so let's ignore that for a second and let's focus on the connection you yourself mention of Albanian to German and I'd like to add the well known connection to Dacian (if Romanian is assumed to be it's descendant) as well. I would say this implies homogeneity in that geographic area quite well.

Not necessarily in terms of autosomal DNA. They could have had a similar Y-DNA makeup due to the strong patrilineality of most BA and IA Indo-European groups and eventual founder effects, but that could have not prevented gradual mixing with neighboring populations, especially northerners. Also, I really do not know, so I ask: do we have ancient Iron Age (so presumably Illyrian "proper") auDNA and Y-DNA from all of the Western Balkans, stretching from Croatia/Slovenia to Albania in the south? If not, how can we assume that all of the "northern" input was necessarily an addition into a homogeneously Albanian-like people (and see that the proxy used was Poland, which clearly had Central & Northwest European influences, too - Germanic most of all)? I'm not saying the Illyrians were just a linguistic community without a coherent and uniform genetic structure, but I somehow doubt no substructure would've been found. Let's say e.g. that the Southern Illyrians were "70% core Illyrian + 30% extra South European", while Northern Illyrians were "70% proto-Illyrian + 30% extra North/Central European". They'd still form a mostly homogeneous linguistic and genetic unity, but with clear substructure.

That does not even imply, of course, that the genetic replacement by Slavs was not really large, or that depopulation of much of the Balkans did not happen (allowing Slavs to migrate and conquer more easily). That is not what I'm trying to say, but just that we may be overestimating its impact a bit (as I said in my first speculative example, say 40% instead of 29%, not that big a difference) by using as proxies of Illyrians of the North Balkans the modern-day Albanians, and as proxies of the Slavs the modern Polish (I'd personally have preferred a Belarusian proxy, but I'm no expert on this subject, so leave it at that). As I said previously, I find it really hard to believe that, if the Slavic expansion was really a people migration as it seems, and not a linguistic/cultural expansion more than anything else, they would've had such a populous society in such a highly populated homeland that they would be able to settle much of Europe from Eastern Germany to Northwest Russia and from there to Bulgaria and even parts of Greece - and yet they'd have numbers enough to make a demic impact of more than 70% in sizeable parts of the Balkans. They would have to have had a huge population to achieve that feat, or then an unprecedented population boom in the latter centuries of the Middle Ages to make that happen.

markod
19-11-18, 00:08
They were soft

To the contrary. One can see this in the linguistic evidence: while Slavic borrowings in Albanian mainly pertain to industry and agricultural life, Albanian borrowings in Serbo-Croatian usually have to do with warlike virtues, tribal organisation and such. One could argue that the men who fathered the Serbo-Croats were assimilated into the Paleo-Balkanic cultural milieu, though not linguistically. At least this is the thesis of the Austrian sociologist Karl Käser who might perhaps be most insightful author on Western Balkanic matters.

Srbadija
19-11-18, 02:12
Perhaps Proto Slavs are connected to Dacians

They are not! The most archaic Slavic hydronyms are south of Pripet marshes which totally corresponds with Zarubintsy culture (which have nothing to do with Dacians), which most archeologists see as the first Slavic culture.


There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din.

I2a Dinarid mainly come with the Slavic migrations, before it, with Bastarns. Actually, Germanic-speaking Bastarns most likely mixed with R1a-M458 from Prszework culture and migrated (both of them) in Zarubinets antiquities. Was Zarubintsy "proto-Slavic" speaking in such form as it is today before come of I2a and R1a-M458, remains unclear.

Tutkun Arnaut
19-11-18, 02:56
That is a kind of mystery by knowing that Illyrians were warlike people. Now you have Slavs arriving and Illyrians just let them occupy the land without resistance?? That is kinda weird at least to me. Anyone have any idea why is that?.

Nobody will ever know for sure, but there are two versions according to me: Illyrians could have been in contact with Slavs before been invaded and invited them to settle in sparsely populated areas to defend against avars and other Turkic invaders. The mindset could have been different at that time. But it did change latter. Albanian word for the ugly enemy is Dushmani, which is Albanian linguistic version of Dushani ( tzar Dushani))The Slavs may not have been seen as bad as they are seen today. Ones the first wave of Slavs came peacefully the second one was a tsunami.
In sparsity of Albanian population there were two known factors: Roman constantly drafting, left Albanian areas always male short. Illyrian males were serving in Roman outposts from England to Egypt. Also at the 5th century there is a known plague. There are extensive records about that. The extent of that plague was devastating. That is the period of first Slavs coming to Balkans as well. So Illyrians had no time to recover their numbers over the devastation of plague.

td120
19-11-18, 03:08
.

Albanian word for the ugly enemy is Dushmani, which is Albanian linguistic version of Dushani ( tzar Dushani))

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%AF%D8%B4%D9%85%D9%86#Persian

LABERIA
19-11-18, 06:12
That is a kind of mystery by knowing that Illyrians were warlike people. Now you have Slavs arriving and Illyrians just let them occupy the land without resistance?? That is kinda weird at least to me. Anyone have any idea why is that?

If you watch the Deretiç videos on YouTube you will never learn anything about history.

Wonomyro
19-11-18, 13:06
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/WestEurasia_admixture_crop.png/1200px-WestEurasia_admixture_crop.png

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090#pone-0105090-g002

As you can see, Bosnian Croats are autosomally more southern (i. e. Balkanic) even than Muslim Bosnians. You can test this yourself with more accurate formal models if you want to explore this in more detail.

Data in a way it is presented above is a bit misleading as one can't easily compare distant blocks, e. g. Hungary is for some strange reason moved into the group with France (West Europe) even though there is striking similarity between Hungarian and Croatian data and the both countries share common history and geography. IMO the PCA plot gives us clearer picture of the relatedness of the analyzed populations:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g003

Two major clusters could be identified in the geographic region between Ukraine and Albania. It is clear that Bosnian Croats, as well as the rest of the Croats and Bosnians, and Hungarians, "live" in the "northern" cluster which is closer to the Slavic homeland. The populations with more southern Europe ancestry are, obviously, Bulgarians, Romanians, Macedonians, Montenegrins and Serbians.

Wonomyro
19-11-18, 13:22
Ask yourself this: why are Bosnian Croats autosomally closer to Albanians than, say, Kajkavians despite having a more Slavic Y-haploid profile?


The answer is obviously male-biased migration.


However, the Bosnian Croats are autosomally MUCH closer to Kajkavians (northwerstern Croats) then to Albanians, so I don't see your point. The "difference" that you stressed is insignificant when you put it into a larger context.

In this PCA plot you can see where Bosnian Croats plot in comparson to the other southeastern Europe populations, including Kosovars (mainly ethnic Albanians):

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=medium&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g003

Dibran
19-11-18, 15:12
They are not! The most archaic Slavic hydronyms are south of Pripet marshes which totally corresponds with Zarubintsy culture (which have nothing to do with Dacians), which most archeologists see as the first Slavic culture.



I2a Dinarid mainly come with the Slavic migrations, before it, with Bastarns. Actually, Germanic-speaking Bastarns most likely mixed with R1a-M458 from Prszework culture and migrated (both of them) in Zarubinets antiquities. Was Zarubintsy "proto-Slavic" speaking in such form as it is today before come of I2a and R1a-M458, remains unclear.

Maybe. However, absent any ADNA for M458 the theories range from Carpathian origin, Lusatian around Gdansk, or Trziniec Culture, a eastern offshoot culture of Lusatian. We won't know for certain without ancient remains. Given most of its diversity ranged from Romania to Poland, and the highest concentration is in Central Europe, this is where its proposed origin has been mentioned. Many of the tribes Romans called East Germanic may not have even been so. Time will tell.

markod
19-11-18, 15:27
However, the Bosnian Croats are autosomally MUCH closer to Kajkavians (northwerstern Croats) then to Albanians, so I don't see your point. The "difference" that you stressed is insignificant when you put it into a larger context.

In this PCA plot you can see the where Bosnian Croats plot in comparson to the other southeastern Europe populations, including Kosovars (mainly ethnic Albanians):

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=medium&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g003


My point is that Bosnian Croats received female-biased admixture from Paleo-Balkanic populations, which is why they lie on a cline between Albanians/Tuscans and Ukrainians on your PCA. Of course Bosnian Croats are closer to other Croats than they are to Albanians.

Crya
19-11-18, 15:50
If you watch the Deretiç videos on YouTube you will never learn anything about history.

Lol. Are you serious? If you don't want to reply to this question, keep silent. Don't come with stupid conclusions.

HiveMindTerror
19-11-18, 17:30
I was wondering, is there a possible connection to Germanic tribes? Ostogoths, Vandals, etc, all passed through the region. Ostogoths even established a kingdom around x yugo territory for a couple of hundred years. Is such a heritage too far fetched?

Also, while reading across this forum I noticed many people commenting a possible ancestry from the Bastarnae? Were the Bastarnae heavy i2 or is this just a theory?

Dibran
19-11-18, 18:02
I was wondering, is there a possible connection to Germanic tribes? Ostogoths, Vandals, etc, all passed through the region. Ostogoths even established a kingdom around x yugo territory for a couple of hundred years. Is such a heritage too far fetched?

Also, while reading across this forum I noticed many people commenting a possible ancestry from the Bastarnae? Were the Bastarnae heavy i2 or is this just a theory?

Anything is possible but the most probable case is its just Proto-Slavic. Bastarnae is just a theory but one which is more reasonable compared to others. They are believed to be connected to the Zarubintsy Culture, which has also been regarded by many as Proto-Slavic. Theres also no agreement on whether they were Germanic or Celtic, or even possibly Proto-Slavic. Roman writers could have been wrong. The problem is people take their accounts as gospel truth. Today you have the western world who can't distinguish between Albanians and other Balkan peoples ans just refer to everyone as "Yugoslavian". Many tribes referred to as "East Germanic" may have actually been Baltic and Even Proto-Slavic. Bastarnae among them.

Wonomyro
19-11-18, 18:08
My point is that Bosnian Croats received female-biased admixture from Paleo-Balkanic populations, which is why they lie on a cline between Albanians/Tuscans and Ukrainians on your PCA. Of course Bosnian Croats are closer to other Croats than they are to Albanians. Surely they did. But not much more then the rest of Croats, Hungarians, and other populations that share the same cluster did. What I can see here is that the territories of the former Roman provinces of Panonnia and Dalmatia are genetically pretty much rounded up.

LABERIA
19-11-18, 18:34
Lol. Are you serious? If you don't want to reply to this question, keep silent. Don't come with stupid conclusions.
Sorry but your question is stupid. I remember perfectly a video of Deretiç when at a certain point he opens his eyes in an exaggerated way and with an idiot expression printed on his face, as if he wanted to say, look, there is something here, he asked exactly the same question. Here in Albania, these things are taught to children when they begin to study history at the age of 11-12 maybe.
Someone here has given an answer to your question. In short, there have been barbarian invasions, wars, famine, epidemics, etc, that have caused a demographic decline in the Balkans at that time. Did not they teach you this things at school in your country?

mihaitzateo
19-11-18, 18:35
I'm genuinely curious if this has been "decided" anywhere by credible researchers.

South Slavs have a different stock of haplogroups than Northern Slavs, and cluster together rather than with other European groups. Clearly we're our own family-branch.

Coincidentally the people with the highest portion of M423 also dwell in what the Romans and Greeks labelled Illyria. Although most people think the Illyrians simply vanished after their Latinization, some kept their ethnic identity for a long time (such as the Barracks Emperors, Belisarius, etc.). I know the Balkans were generally a war-zone for the late Roman Empire and barbarian tribes, but did the Illyrians really just vanish (again)? I mean, Albanians claim to be of that stock but have more in common with Greeks genetically than South Slavs, and Albania was generally a kind of borderline between Illyria proper and Greece (Epirus).

Historically it was said that many Roman cities on the Croatian coast remained free and independent of the "migrant Slavs" and Latin Dalmatian was spoken well into the 1800's (from what I recall). Haplogroup I2 spikes in Dalmatia and Bosnia, one packed with seemingly peaceful Illyrian towns, the other a mountainous escape for natives from invading foreigners.

I mean, from the mosaics of Roman-Illyrian Emperors and Generals in Byzantium, I can definitely see more of a resemblance to many Southern Slavs than I can when comparing typical Bosnians to typical Russians. At the same time there is definitely a Slavic (or whatever northern European tribe) mix in Balkanians for sure, but mainly were we simply Slavicized after the collapse of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires?

Croatians were historically referred to as Illyrians, Serbs were synonymous with Tribalians (Thracian tribe), and Bosnia is named after the Bosona river (an Illyrian word if I recall correctly). I mean people of haplogroup I are noted for being particularly tall, the Greeks and Romans both described Illyrians as particularly tall people.

Can they ever dig up Illyrian bones and sequence their haplogroups?
I think it depends from person to person.
But in most cases, ex-Yugos, are having more Balkan admixture than NE European admixture.
The ex-Yugos should also have a significant (20% or more) percent of NW European admixture.
Another thing, NE admixture does not necessary means Slavic origin, it can also be East Germanics and especially Goths, origins.
According to common sense, Goths came from the land of Poland and East Germany and not from Gotaland (the origin of Goths in Gotaland is just a myth, a legend, not the truth).
South Baltic admixture should be what early proto-Slavs had mostly, when they started to move South, East and West.
So it would be needed some more detailed DNA testing to be able to make difference between Slavic and East Germanic autosomal DNA.

Wonomyro
19-11-18, 20:43
Also, while reading across this forum I noticed many people commenting a possible ancestry from the Bastarnae? Were the Bastarnae heavy i2 or is this just a theory? A pure fantasy.

HiveMindTerror
19-11-18, 21:16
According to what Dibran said it seems fairlt reasonable. Or is he simply wrong?

Aspar
19-11-18, 22:33
I think it depends from person to person.
But in most cases, ex-Yugos, are having more Balkan admixture than NE European admixture.
The ex-Yugos should also have a significant (20% or more) percent of NW European admixture.
Another thing, NE admixture does not necessary means Slavic origin, it can also be East Germanics and especially Goths, origins.
According to common sense, Goths came from the land of Poland and East Germany and not from Gotaland (the origin of Goths in Gotaland is just a myth, a legend, not the truth).
South Baltic admixture should be what early proto-Slavs had mostly, when they started to move South, East and West.
So it would be needed some more detailed DNA testing to be able to make difference between Slavic and East Germanic autosomal DNA.

That's not true at all!
Ex Yugos are not a single entity, in matter of fact, they were people very different, in both, genetics and culture!
There are worlds apart between Slovenes or Croatians to Macedonians!

And most ex-Yugos don't have more Balkanic than NE European admixture!
The only ones with more Balkanic admixture would be Macedonians and some Southern Serbs!

For example, I am from the South-Eastern part of Rep. of Macedonia.
When comparing myself with ancient samples using Eurogenes K36 data on nMonte, I get these results:

[1] "distance%=10.4265"


Aspar


South-East-Euro, 40.6
Early-Slavic, 29.7
Crimean_Greek_KER_1, 22.3
Levant-Egypt, 4
Gepid_VIM_2, 3.4


On other hand, this are results of a Serbian user on another forum:

"distance%=10.6922"

....

Early-Slavic,27.2
South-East-Euro,25.6
Dutch shifted Baiuvar,16.8
Early-Baltic,16
Crimean Greek,14.4

These are ancient genome proxies for the calculator:
NW-Germanic
MA_AngloSaxon_HS1
MA_AngloSaxon_HS2
MA_Northumbria_NO3423
IA_Germano-Celt_3DRIF16
IA_Germano-Celt_6DRIF3
3kyaBA_Sweden_RISE175
IA_Sweden_RISE174

NW-Celtic
IA_BritishCelt_6DRIF23
IA_Celtic-Briton_HI1
IA_Celtic-Briton_HI4
IA_Gaelic-Celt_6DRIF18
IA_Gaulish-Celt_6DRIF22
IA_Pictish-Brit_6DRIF21
3kyaMBA_Germany_RISE471
4kyaBA_Ireland_Rathlin1

Early-Slavic
MA_Niemcza34
MA_Markowice7
MA_RISE568
MA_RISE569

Early Medieval (MA) from Poland and Czech Republic.

Early-Baltic:
RISE598

Iron-Age-LBA-Steppe
IA_Altai_RISE492
IA_Altai_RISE600
IA_ScythianAldyBel_I0576
IA_ScythianAldyBel_I0577
IA_ScythianPazyryk_Be9
IA_ScythianPazyryk_I0563
3kyaBA_Karasuk_RISE493
3kyaBA_Karasuk_RISE497
4kyaBA_Okunevo_RISE515
4kyaBA_Okunevo_RISE516
3kyaLBA_Baikal_RISE554
IA_ScythianSamara_I0247
IA_ScythianSamara_I0247b
IA_ScythianZevakino_Ze6
IA_Sarmatian_I0574
IA_Sarmatian_I0575
IA_Sarmatian_I0575b
IA_ScythianIsmailovo_Is2
3kyaBA_Mezhovskaya_RISE523
3kyaBA_Mezhovskaya_RISE524
3kyaBA_Mezhovskaya_RISE525

Levant-Egypt:
4kyaBA_Sidon
IA_Egypt_JK2134
IA_Egypt_JK2888
IA_Egypt_JK2911
IA_Egypt_JK2911b
4kyaBA_Levant_I1705
4kyaBA_Levant_I1706
4kyaBA_Levant_I1730
IA_LevantEgypt_3DRIF26
IA_LevantEgypt_3DRIF26b

Ancient-Iran:
IA_Iran_F38
MA_Iran_I1955
6kyaCA_Iran_I1661a
6kyaCA_Iran_I1661b
6kyaCA_Iran_I1662
6kyaCA_Iran_I1665
6kyaCA_Iran_I1665b
6kyaCA_Iran_I1670
6kyaCA_Iran_I1674

Anatolia-Armenia:
6kyaCA_MarmaraSea_I1584
5kyaBA_Anatolia_I2499
4kyaEBA_Armenia_I1633
4kyaEBA_Armenia_I1635
4kyaEBA_Armenia_I1658
4kyaMBA_Armenia_RISE413
4kyaMBA_Armenia_RISE416
3kyaLBA_Armenia_RISE397
3kyaLBA_Armenia_RISE407
3kyaLBA_Armenia_RISE412
3kyaMBA_Armenia_I1656
3kyaMBA_Armenia_RISE423

South-East Euro:
3kyaBA_Mycenaean_I9006
3kyaBA_Mycenaean_I9010
3kyaBA_Mycenaean_I9033
3kyaBA_Mycenaean_I9041
3kyaBA_CreteArmenoi_I9123

South-West Euro:
3kyaBA_Iberia_ATP9
5kyaCA_Iberia_ATP2
5kyaCA_Iberia_I1280
5kyaCA_Iberia_I1274
5kyaCA_Iberia_I1277
5kyaCA_Iberia_I1281
5kyaCA_Iberia_I1303
5kyaLN_Portugal_Monte-Canelas1
3kyaBA_Portugal_ERR1524174
3kyaBA_Portugal_I0207
3kyaBA_Portugal_MonteGato
3kyaBA_Portugal_TorreVelha
3kyaBA_Portugal_TorreVelhaB

South-Central Euro:

4kyaCA_Remedello_Italy_RISE486
4kyaBA_Minoan_I0070
4kyaBA_Minoan_I0073
5kyaCA_Remedello_Italy_RISE487
5kyaCA_Remedello_Italy_RISE489

Central-Euro-4kya:
4kyaBA_Hungary_BR1
4kyaBA_Hungary_BR1b
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE247
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE254
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE349
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE371
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE373
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE374
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE479
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE480
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE483
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE484
3kyaLBA_Hungary_BR2
IA_Hungary_IR1
3kyaLBA_Germany_I0099
4kyaBA_Unetice_Czechia_RISE577
4kyaBA_Unetice_Czechia_RISE586
4kyaBA_Unetice_Czechia_RISE586b
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0047
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0047b
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0114
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0115
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0116
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0117
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0164
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0164b
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0803
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0803b
4kyaBA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE109
4kyaBA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE150
4kyaBA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE154
4kyaBA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE154b
4kyaBB_Czechia_RISE566
4kyaBB_Czechia_RISE567
4kyaBB_Germany_I0058
4kyaBB_Germany_I0059
4kyaBB_Germany_I0060
4kyaBB_Germany_I0112
4kyaBB_Germany_I0113
4kyaBB_Germany_I0806
4kyaBB_Germany_RISE560
4kyaBB_Germany_RISE563
4kyaCA_Germany_I0118
4kyaEBA_Cuiavia_PLN17
4kyaEBA_Wielkopolska_RISE431
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0049
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0103
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0104
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0106
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0108
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0111
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0550

Roman soldier from south Germany FN_2
Crimean Greek (KER_1)
Gepid with Central-Asian input (VIM_2)
Dutch shifted Baiuvar (ALH_10)
Swedish shifted Baiuvar AED_204

As you can see, I can be modeled as 30%(Early-Slavic) NE European or 33% if we include the Gepid influence and 63%(SE Euro + Crimean) SE European or 67% if we include Levant-Egypt!
While the Serb can be modeled as 43%(Early-Slavic + Early-Baltic), 40%(SE-Euro + Crimean) and 17% NW-Euro!

markod
19-11-18, 23:25
According to what Dibran said it seems fairlt reasonable. Or is he simply wrong?

There's simply no plausible reason to think so. But the South Slavs most likely assimilated remnants of the Germanic populations in the Balkans, and the signal is especially visible in Serbs and eastern Bulgarians. Probably Gepids, but it's difficult to say for sure.

HiveMindTerror
19-11-18, 23:54
So the idea I'm forming of the South Slav ethno-genesis is something like as follows:

Area was dominated by Illyrian tribes who were most likely not closely related to most of modern day South Slavs. After thousands of years of war with Romans, Celts, Greeks, Goths, Vandals, Huns, Mongols, Slavs, many diseases etc, most of the original "Illyrian" population were probably dead or absorbed several of said invader peoples into the population until it became utterly unlike the Illyrians of antiquity. That's the idea I'm forming of the fate of the Illyrians. The last remnants holding out in Albania because of its small size, mountainous geography and generally being out of the way.

On the other side of this we have the proto-Slavs who came to the Balkans, who were dominant haplogroup I2, unlike the vast majority of northern Slavs. This means these Slavs who invaded were closely related, even before the first Proto-Slavs appeared? I mean, to maintain such a high percentage of that particular haplogroup when it's a minority in typical Russians, Poles, etc, the invading Slavs must have come from related tribes, right?

Who could these tribes have been? Dacians? I'm curious about this because, as far as I know, the Slavic language and culture is very young compared to any other European groups (Latins, Germanics, Celts). So could the shattered remnants of the northern Dacians (hypothetically being I2a dominant) have mixed with and formed the proto-Slavic culture/peoples, before migrating south? We must have come from somewhere, or were Slavs possibly always there, ever since the first Latins appeared in Italy and Germanic people in Germany? I always assumed most east Slavs descended from Scythians and unknown Steppe tribes for example.

I'm also curious as to why there are enough Mediterranean looking South Slavs. Some could pass as very tall looking Greeks, rather than a stereotypical image of a central/eastern European. My own father can definitely pass as Mediterranean with an olive skin stone and dark hair, I'm haplogroup I2 from that line. My mothers side is the very stereotypical "Slavic": pale, blonde, blue-eyed, northern European looking. Did these Slavs simply adapt to the sunny-hot climate of the Adriatic coast? Or do we just stereotype what the northern barbarians would have looked like too much?

markod
20-11-18, 00:51
So the idea I'm forming of the South Slav ethno-genesis is something like as follows:

Area was dominated by Illyrian tribes who were most likely not closely related to most of modern day South Slavs. After thousands of years of war with Romans, Celts, Greeks, Goths, Vandals, Huns, Mongols, Slavs, many diseases etc, most of the original "Illyrian" population were probably dead or absorbed several of said invader peoples into the population until it became utterly unlike the Illyrians of antiquity. That's the idea I'm forming of the fate of the Illyrians. The last remnants holding out in Albania because of its small size, mountainous geography and generally being out of the way.

On the other side of this we have the proto-Slavs who came to the Balkans, who were dominant haplogroup I2, unlike the vast majority of northern Slavs. This means these Slavs who invaded were closely related, even before the first Proto-Slavs appeared? I mean, to maintain such a high percentage of that particular haplogroup when it's a minority in typical Russians, Poles, etc, the invading Slavs must have come from related tribes, right?

Who could these tribes have been? Dacians? I'm curious about this because, as far as I know, the Slavic language and culture is very young compared to any other European groups (Latins, Germanics, Celts). So could the shattered remnants of the northern Dacians (hypothetically being I2a dominant) have mixed with and formed the proto-Slavic culture/peoples, before migrating south? We must have come from somewhere, or were Slavs possibly always there, ever since the first Latins appeared in Italy and Germanic people in Germany? I always assumed most east Slavs descended from Scythians and unknown Steppe tribes for example.

I'm also curious as to why there are enough Mediterranean looking South Slavs. Some could pass as very tall looking Greeks, rather than a stereotypical image of a central/eastern European. My own father can definitely pass as Mediterranean with an olive skin stone and dark hair, I'm haplogroup I2 from that line. My mothers side is the very stereotypical "Slavic": pale, blonde, blue-eyed, northern European looking. Did these Slavs simply adapt to the sunny-hot climate of the Adriatic coast? Or do we just stereotype what the northern barbarians would have looked like too much?

I2a-Din is not that insignificant among other Slavs, especially in the western Ukraine and Moldova close to where I'd put the earliest Slavs of the Kiev culture. It was recently discovered that the Rurikids might originally have belonged to that haplogroup. Relative haplogroup frequencies tend to shift over time without foreign influence. The Slavs were pagans and polygamy was very common, so founder effects are bound to happen.

The Paleo-Balkanics likely weren't close to extinction. The entire southern half of Serbia has Messapic toponyms, a language that was very closely related to Albanian and a sister language of Illyrian. The inner Dinaric range has Latin place names of course, and the Romanized population in the mountains wouldnt have been affected by the decline of the cities. I think Illyrian was already a dead language by the time the Slavs arrived.

The frequent Mediterranean look among South Slavs is of course a result of admixture. If Bosnian Croats are 50% Paleo-Balkanic that is to be expected.

HiveMindTerror
20-11-18, 03:03
Well I didnt mean they necessarily went extinct, just became a minority in their former homelands. How are Bosnian Croats 50% native? We're generally purest with haplogroup i2 and very few of us have haplogroups E or J

markod
20-11-18, 04:17
Well I didnt mean they necessarily went extinct, just became a minority in their former homelands. How are Bosnian Croats 50% native? We're generally purest with haplogroup i2 and very few of us have haplogroups E or J

Because of women.

Crya
20-11-18, 07:14
Sorry but your question is stupid. I remember perfectly a video of Deretiç when at a certain point he opens his eyes in an exaggerated way and with an idiot expression printed on his face, as if he wanted to say, look, there is something here, he asked exactly the same question. Here in Albania, these things are taught to children when they begin to study history at the age of 11-12 maybe.
Someone here has given an answer to your question. In short, there have been barbarian invasions, wars, famine, epidemics, etc, that have caused a demographic decline in the Balkans at that time. Did not they teach you this things at school in your country?

You are watching Deretic? Good god :)

There is no stupid questions but only stupid answers. If someone has already answered my question as you said, what is the purpose of your answer? To insult me? Try to relax would be good for your health. This is not a war zone it is educational site.

LABERIA
20-11-18, 10:36
You are watching Deretic? Good god :)
There is no stupid questions but only stupid answers. If someone has already answered my question as you said, what is the purpose of your answer? To insult me? Try to relax would be good for your health. This is not a war zone it is educational site.
I explained why your question is stupid. Now it's you who have to explain why my answer is stupid, was you who used this word, probably for a moment you forgot that this is not a war zone it is educational site.

mihaitzateo
20-11-18, 11:34
That's not true at all!
Ex Yugos are not a single entity, in matter of fact, they were people very different, in both, genetics and culture!
There are worlds apart between Slovenes or Croatians to Macedonians!

And most ex-Yugos don't have more Balkanic than NE European admixture!
The only ones with more Balkanic admixture would be Macedonians and some Southern Serbs!

For example, I am from the South-Eastern part of Rep. of Macedonia.
When comparing myself with ancient samples using Eurogenes K36 data on nMonte, I get these results:

[1] "distance%=10.4265"


Aspar


South-East-Euro, 40.6
Early-Slavic, 29.7
Crimean_Greek_KER_1, 22.3
Levant-Egypt, 4
Gepid_VIM_2, 3.4


On other hand, this are results of a Serbian user on another forum:

"distance%=10.6922"

....

Early-Slavic,27.2
South-East-Euro,25.6
Dutch shifted Baiuvar,16.8
Early-Baltic,16
Crimean Greek,14.4

These are ancient genome proxies for the calculator:
NW-Germanic
MA_AngloSaxon_HS1
MA_AngloSaxon_HS2
MA_Northumbria_NO3423
IA_Germano-Celt_3DRIF16
IA_Germano-Celt_6DRIF3
3kyaBA_Sweden_RISE175
IA_Sweden_RISE174

NW-Celtic
IA_BritishCelt_6DRIF23
IA_Celtic-Briton_HI1
IA_Celtic-Briton_HI4
IA_Gaelic-Celt_6DRIF18
IA_Gaulish-Celt_6DRIF22
IA_Pictish-Brit_6DRIF21
3kyaMBA_Germany_RISE471
4kyaBA_Ireland_Rathlin1

Early-Slavic
MA_Niemcza34
MA_Markowice7
MA_RISE568
MA_RISE569

Early Medieval (MA) from Poland and Czech Republic.

Early-Baltic:
RISE598

Iron-Age-LBA-Steppe
IA_Altai_RISE492
IA_Altai_RISE600
IA_ScythianAldyBel_I0576
IA_ScythianAldyBel_I0577
IA_ScythianPazyryk_Be9
IA_ScythianPazyryk_I0563
3kyaBA_Karasuk_RISE493
3kyaBA_Karasuk_RISE497
4kyaBA_Okunevo_RISE515
4kyaBA_Okunevo_RISE516
3kyaLBA_Baikal_RISE554
IA_ScythianSamara_I0247
IA_ScythianSamara_I0247b
IA_ScythianZevakino_Ze6
IA_Sarmatian_I0574
IA_Sarmatian_I0575
IA_Sarmatian_I0575b
IA_ScythianIsmailovo_Is2
3kyaBA_Mezhovskaya_RISE523
3kyaBA_Mezhovskaya_RISE524
3kyaBA_Mezhovskaya_RISE525

Levant-Egypt:
4kyaBA_Sidon
IA_Egypt_JK2134
IA_Egypt_JK2888
IA_Egypt_JK2911
IA_Egypt_JK2911b
4kyaBA_Levant_I1705
4kyaBA_Levant_I1706
4kyaBA_Levant_I1730
IA_LevantEgypt_3DRIF26
IA_LevantEgypt_3DRIF26b

Ancient-Iran:
IA_Iran_F38
MA_Iran_I1955
6kyaCA_Iran_I1661a
6kyaCA_Iran_I1661b
6kyaCA_Iran_I1662
6kyaCA_Iran_I1665
6kyaCA_Iran_I1665b
6kyaCA_Iran_I1670
6kyaCA_Iran_I1674

Anatolia-Armenia:
6kyaCA_MarmaraSea_I1584
5kyaBA_Anatolia_I2499
4kyaEBA_Armenia_I1633
4kyaEBA_Armenia_I1635
4kyaEBA_Armenia_I1658
4kyaMBA_Armenia_RISE413
4kyaMBA_Armenia_RISE416
3kyaLBA_Armenia_RISE397
3kyaLBA_Armenia_RISE407
3kyaLBA_Armenia_RISE412
3kyaMBA_Armenia_I1656
3kyaMBA_Armenia_RISE423

South-East Euro:
3kyaBA_Mycenaean_I9006
3kyaBA_Mycenaean_I9010
3kyaBA_Mycenaean_I9033
3kyaBA_Mycenaean_I9041
3kyaBA_CreteArmenoi_I9123

South-West Euro:
3kyaBA_Iberia_ATP9
5kyaCA_Iberia_ATP2
5kyaCA_Iberia_I1280
5kyaCA_Iberia_I1274
5kyaCA_Iberia_I1277
5kyaCA_Iberia_I1281
5kyaCA_Iberia_I1303
5kyaLN_Portugal_Monte-Canelas1
3kyaBA_Portugal_ERR1524174
3kyaBA_Portugal_I0207
3kyaBA_Portugal_MonteGato
3kyaBA_Portugal_TorreVelha
3kyaBA_Portugal_TorreVelhaB

South-Central Euro:

4kyaCA_Remedello_Italy_RISE486
4kyaBA_Minoan_I0070
4kyaBA_Minoan_I0073
5kyaCA_Remedello_Italy_RISE487
5kyaCA_Remedello_Italy_RISE489

Central-Euro-4kya:
4kyaBA_Hungary_BR1
4kyaBA_Hungary_BR1b
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE247
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE254
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE349
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE371
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE373
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE374
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE479
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE480
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE483
4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE484
3kyaLBA_Hungary_BR2
IA_Hungary_IR1
3kyaLBA_Germany_I0099
4kyaBA_Unetice_Czechia_RISE577
4kyaBA_Unetice_Czechia_RISE586
4kyaBA_Unetice_Czechia_RISE586b
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0047
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0047b
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0114
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0115
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0116
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0117
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0164
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0164b
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0803
4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0803b
4kyaBA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE109
4kyaBA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE150
4kyaBA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE154
4kyaBA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE154b
4kyaBB_Czechia_RISE566
4kyaBB_Czechia_RISE567
4kyaBB_Germany_I0058
4kyaBB_Germany_I0059
4kyaBB_Germany_I0060
4kyaBB_Germany_I0112
4kyaBB_Germany_I0113
4kyaBB_Germany_I0806
4kyaBB_Germany_RISE560
4kyaBB_Germany_RISE563
4kyaCA_Germany_I0118
4kyaEBA_Cuiavia_PLN17
4kyaEBA_Wielkopolska_RISE431
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0049
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0103
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0104
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0106
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0108
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0111
4kyaCWC_Germany_I0550

Roman soldier from south Germany FN_2
Crimean Greek (KER_1)
Gepid with Central-Asian input (VIM_2)
Dutch shifted Baiuvar (ALH_10)
Swedish shifted Baiuvar AED_204

As you can see, I can be modeled as 30%(Early-Slavic) NE European or 33% if we include the Gepid influence and 63%(SE Euro + Crimean) SE European or 67% if we include Levant-Egypt!
While the Serb can be modeled as 43%(Early-Slavic + Early-Baltic), 40%(SE-Euro + Crimean) and 17% NW-Euro!

But these are only 2 results.
About Crimean admixture - I am not that sure that admixture is not having also a lot of Gothic genes.
Gothic language was spoken in Crimea till 1600 or so.
After, Tatars came in Crimea or so.
Do not know the exact history of the region.

Crya
20-11-18, 13:03
I explained why your question is stupid. Now it's you who have to explain why my answer is stupid, was you who used this word, probably for a moment you forgot that this is not a war zone it is educational site.

I don't know and cannot imagine what was that in my question to inspire you react like this. But this kind of reactions reveal the sad truth about a bitter guy who thinks the whole world is against him and his own people. I know a lot of Serbians feeling the same. I wish you will be able in the future to change that and move on. Until then, you guys (including Serbs similar to you) can continue fighting each others as much as you like but without my involvement.

Aspar
20-11-18, 13:04
But these are only 2 results.
About Crimean admixture - I am not that sure that admixture is not having also a lot of Gothic genes.
Gothic language was spoken in Crimea till 1600 or so.
After, Tatars came in Crimea or so.
Do not know the exact history of the region.

There is nothing "Gothic" about him...
Here is his Eurogenes K36:

Amerindian 0,85
Arabian 5,73
Armenian 2,89
Basque 0
Central_African 0
Central_Euro 0
East_African 0
East_Asian 0
East_Balkan 3,14
East_Central_Asian 0,55
East_Central_Euro 3,48
East_Med 15,27
Eastern_Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0,41
French 2,43
Iberian 5,35
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 19,23
Malayan 0
Near_Eastern 8
North_African 0,6
North_Atlantic 3,22
North_Caucasian 17,32
North_Sea 0,57
Northeast_African 0
Oceanian 0,28
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South_Asian 0
South_Central_Asian 0
South_Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 2,14
West_African 0
West_Caucasian 8,52
West_Med 0

The "Northern" dna is negligible!

Lenab
20-11-18, 17:17
There is nothing "Gothic" about him...
Here is his Eurogenes K36:

Amerindian 0,85
Arabian 5,73
Armenian 2,89
Basque 0
Central_African 0
Central_Euro 0
East_African 0
East_Asian 0
East_Balkan 3,14
East_Central_Asian 0,55
East_Central_Euro 3,48
East_Med 15,27
Eastern_Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0,41
French 2,43
Iberian 5,35
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 19,23
Malayan 0
Near_Eastern 8
North_African 0,6
North_Atlantic 3,22
North_Caucasian 17,32
North_Sea 0,57
Northeast_African 0
Oceanian 0,28
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South_Asian 0
South_Central_Asian 0
South_Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 2,14
West_African 0
West_Caucasian 8,52
West_Med 0

The "Northern" dna is negligible!

That's similar to my score and I get told my GED my maternal line is like Cypriots and people of pre historic Levant racially Balkan/Anatolian mix. If that's his mix he's not only Balkan South European he must of ancestors from the Near East :O

LABERIA
20-11-18, 17:31
I don't know and cannot imagine what was that in my question to inspire you react like this. But this kind of reactions reveal the sad truth about a bitter guy who thinks the whole world is against him and his own people. I know a lot of Serbians feeling the same. I wish you will be able in the future to change that and move on. Until then, you guys (including Serbs similar to you) can continue fighting each others as much as you like but without my involvement.
You are absolutely wrong in every single word. Nothing bitter guy or the whole world against my people, etc. You know, some of your people can not make the difference between the forums in your country and an serious international forum. If you start to search, you can find plenty of examples even in this forum. Hope we will not read in the future from you about serbian empire from Atlantic to Pacific, makeridov, etc, i will apriciate if you detach yourself from that kind of bizarre theories.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlQf650F1_8
Jovan Deretić - Arrival of Slavs - Dolazak Slavena (english)



That is a kind of mystery by knowing that Illyrians were warlike people. Now you have Slavs arriving and Illyrians just let them occupy the land without resistance?? That is kinda weird at least to me. Anyone have any idea why is that?

Johane Derite
22-11-18, 01:15
"The Hagi himself visited me, so soon as he had concluded service in the church.
He was a tall, fair, handsome man, very friendly, and much relieved to find I understood Serb. Marko, who knows but little, asked him if he understood Albanian.
He laughed heartily, and replied, "I am an Albanian." Born of Albanian parents, he explained he had spoken Albanian only as a child. But having joined the Orthodox Church, he was now a Servian, and Servian was more familiar to him than his mother tongue."
-1909
Edith Durham / High Albania

Wonomyro
22-11-18, 13:25
Genetic Landscape of Slovenians: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgene.2018.00551/full


The first two PCs explained ∼16% of the variance with Slovenian samples grouping together with the Croatians, Hungarians and close to the Czechs.

https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/416192/fgene-09-00551-HTML/image_m/fgene-09-00551-g002.jpg


The relationships between populations were also assessed by computing a pairwise Fst matrix. Analysis of the UPGMA tree based on the Fst matrix shows all Slovenian individuals clustering together with Hungarians, Czechs, Croatians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians


Pattern of runs of homozygosity computed on the Slovenian population does not differ significantly from Hungarians, Czechs, Croatians


Unsupervised admixture analysis of Slovenians. Results for K = 5 are showed as it represents the lowest cross-validation error. Slovenian samples show an admixture pattern similar to the neighboring populations such as Croatians and Hungarians.

https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/416192/fgene-09-00551-HTML/image_m/fgene-09-00551-g003.jpg

mihaitzateo
22-11-18, 23:53
The ethnicity is not determined only by genetics.
So, South Slavs are partially Slavs, because they speak a Slavic language and have partially Slavic customs and way of living.
However,if you take for example Slovenians, is quite clearly they are not fully Slavs.
If you take Serbians or Croatians or Bosnians, they are even less Slavs - for the simple reason all like to live near the mountains and this is not typical to Slavs.
The fact that Austrian empire ruled Slovenia and Croatia for a lot of time partially made these people Austrian-like.
In fact, it seems that even Serbs, not only Croats and Slovenes are mostly Austrian-like, as ethnicity, currently.


So, when talking about how much Slavs are South Slavs, a lot more things should be taken into account, not only genetics.

HiveMindTerror
23-11-18, 00:15
The ethnicity is not determined only by genetics.
So, South Slavs are partially Slavs, because they speak a Slavic language and have partially Slavic customs and way of living.
However,if you take for example Slovenians, is quite clearly they are not fully Slavs.
If you take Serbians or Croatians or Bosnians, they are even less Slavs - for the simple reason all like to live near the mountains and this is not typical to Slavs.
The fact that Austrian empire ruled Slovenia and Croatia for a lot of time partially made these people Austrian-like.
In fact, it seems that even Serbs, not only Croats and Slovenes are mostly Austrian-like, as ethnicity, currently.


So, when talking about how much Slavs are South Slavs, a lot more things should be taken into account, not only genetics.

........................what am I even reading

Wonomyro
23-11-18, 00:16
The ethnicity is not determined only by genetics.

The ethnicity is not determined by genetics at all. However, it is related.


So, South Slavs are partially Slavs, because they speak a Slavic language and have partially Slavic customs and way of living.
However,if you take for example Slovenians, is quite clearly they are not fully Slavs.
If you take Serbians or Croatians or Bosnians, they are even less Slavs - for the simple reason all like to live near the mountains and this is not typical to Slavs.
The fact that Austrian empire ruled Slovenia and Croatia for a lot of time partially made these people Austrian-like.
In fact, it seems that even Serbs, not only Croats and Slovenes are mostly Austrian-like, as ethnicity, currently.

So, when talking about how much Slavs are South Slavs, a lot more things should be taken into account, not only genetics.

Imagine that someone say that Romanians are not "fully Romanians because they live in plains:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallachian_Plain

Slavs:


Slavs are an Indo-European ethno-linguistic group who speak the various Slavic languages of the larger Balto-Slavic linguistic group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs

LeBrok
23-11-18, 01:47
Once we have data of where the Slavs came from, we will be in position to tell all who is the most "original" Slav, and who is less. Right now we can say that Slavs in Balkans are more genetically Balkanic than East and West Slavs from up North. Otherwise they are all equal Slavs, as being a Slav is a cultural phenomenon. Could be as simple as speaking slavic language and personally identifying as Slav. It is like belonging to a religion.

HiveMindTerror
23-11-18, 04:30
I disagree with the end statement.
Its not a religion but an ethnic group. You dont get to decide what ethnicity you are, its your heritage, family, ancestors, closest relatives. I'm just curious why South Slavs are so dominantly part of haplogroup I2. I'm sure we were a major component of the proto Slavs yeah, I'm just curious as to who we were before that, if anyone. Like were the haplogroup I2 people a certain tribe or group of peoples before the development of Slavdom with the R1a Slavs.

mihaitzateo
23-11-18, 16:12
Could you kindly explain to me why when Serbs where in troubled times they migrated to Austria and not Tzarist Empire or to Poland?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_of_the_Serbs#Great_Serb_Migration_(1690% E2%80%9391)
Please take into account that Poland was quite ok in those times, even some Scotts migrated to Poland.
Is not normal to integrate easier with people of larger Slavic ethnicity if you are a Slav?
So at the question "Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic", it depends at what we are referring.
If we are talking about the genetics and we call Slavs those people that migrated around 600 AD, is different from ethnic group to ethnic group and from person to person.
If we are talking about ethnic groups, is again different.
Bulgarians rather seems more Slavic as ethnicity, than Balkanic, while Macedonian look rather more Balkanic as ethnicity.
Montenegrins are between Slavs and Balkanics.
But as we move to Serbia, Serbia are more West Germanic like,more Austrian as ethnicity, to be precise and is same with Croatia and Slovenia.
From what I hear from other Slavs, Serbs are even more close to Germans as way of being, than Austrians are close to Germans.
For Bosnia, I do not have an opinion.

Fatherland
23-11-18, 16:35
Could you kindly explain to me why when Serbs where in troubled times they migrated to Austria and not Tzarist Empire or to Poland?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_of_the_Serbs#Great_Serb_Migration_(1690% E2%80%9391)
Please take into account that Poland was quite ok in those times, even some Scotts migrated to Poland.
Is not normal to integrate easier with people of larger Slavic ethnicity if you are a Slav?
So at the question "Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic", it depends at what we are referring.
If we are talking about the genetics and we call Slavs those people that migrated around 600 AD, is different from ethnic group to ethnic group and from person to person.
If we are talking about ethnic groups, is again different.
Bulgarians rather seems more Slavic as ethnicity, than Balkanic, while Macedonian look rather more Balkanic as ethnicity.
Montenegrins are between Slavs and Balkanics.
But as we move to Serbia, Serbia are more West Germanic like,more Austrian as ethnicity, to be precise and is same with Croatia and Slovenia.
From what I hear from other Slavs, Serbs are even more close to Germans as way of being, than Austrians are close to Germans.
For Bosnia, I do not have an opinion.
Bulgarians are the most Balkanic Slavs, along with FYROM and Montenegro.

LeBrok
23-11-18, 17:36
I disagree with the end statement.
Its not a religion but an ethnic group. You dont get to decide what ethnicity you are, its your heritage, family, ancestors, closest relatives. What if one parent is Slav the other not? What if only one grandparent was a Salv? How much genetics or heritage one needs to be a Slav?




I'm just curious why South Slavs are so dominantly part of haplogroup I2. I'm sure we were a major component of the proto Slavs yeah, I'm just curious as to who we were before that, if anyone. Like were the haplogroup I2 people a certain tribe or group of peoples before the development of Slavdom with the R1a Slavs. Oh, is I2 and R1a making people Slavic?

Fatherland
23-11-18, 18:04
Could you kindly explain to me why when Serbs where in troubled times they migrated to Austria and not Tzarist Empire or to Poland?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_of_the_Serbs#Great_Serb_Migration_(1690% E2%80%9391)
Please take into account that Poland was quite ok in those times, even some Scotts migrated to Poland.
Is not normal to integrate easier with people of larger Slavic ethnicity if you are a Slav?
So at the question "Are South Slavs more Balkan Native than Slavic", it depends at what we are referring.
If we are talking about the genetics and we call Slavs those people that migrated around 600 AD, is different from ethnic group to ethnic group and from person to person.
If we are talking about ethnic groups, is again different.
Bulgarians rather seems more Slavic as ethnicity, than Balkanic, while Macedonian look rather more Balkanic as ethnicity.
Montenegrins are between Slavs and Balkanics.
But as we move to Serbia, Serbia are more West Germanic like,more Austrian as ethnicity, to be precise and is same with Croatia and Slovenia.
From what I hear from other Slavs, Serbs are even more close to Germans as way of being, than Austrians are close to Germans.
For Bosnia, I do not have an opinion.
South Slavs share a relatively young clade, called I2a1b-CTS10228, which is significantly lower among non-Slavic speakers and is elevated in areas where the Slavs arrived en masse. So it is definitely SLAVIC.

Russians and Ukrainians have a higher number of I2a1b-CTS10228 than do South Slavs.

In Italy, both north and south, this clade doesn't exist, so it can not be attributed to Illyrians, neither Goths.

I'm tired of these discussions, they have gone on for years, propagated by the same people carrying these haplogroups and their lack of self-criticism. I2a1b-CTS10228 is not anymore special than any other haplogroup.

markod
23-11-18, 19:13
What if one parent is Slav the other not? What if only one grandparent was a Salv? How much genetics or heritage one needs to be a Slav?



Oh, is I2 and R1a making people Slavic?

The peculiar thing about Serbo-Croats is that they used to be until quite recently one of the few truly patrilineal peoples in the world. This means that a woman fully adopted the tribal identity of her husband upon marriage. There are volumes in places like Hercegovina with meticulously recorded genealogies spanning centuries that do not contain as much as a single female name, because marilineal descent wasn't recognized at all. In these places Slavic identity was always inherited along the male line, which is why we see such y-haplogroup profiles there.

This might have been a custom that was adopted from Paleo-Balkanic peoples, but as hard to believe as it is today, the influence of Islam might have led to women being held in higher regard among Albanians and Muslim Slavs. This is why these cultural features are more prominent among the Christians of Montenegro and Bosnia.

HiveMindTerror
23-11-18, 21:05
What if one parent is Slav the other not? What if only one grandparent was a Salv? How much genetics or heritage one needs to be a Slav?


Oh, is I2 and R1a making people Slavic?

If one of your parents/grandparents were a Slav, then you're partially Slav. How much genetic heritage? Don't know, but the more genetic Slav you are, the closer you'll be to that heritage. If you're 1/1000th Slav you probably wouldn't even know it.

Those seem to be the dominant haplogroups associated with the proto-slavs, so yeah that's the way I see it.

LeBrok
23-11-18, 21:29
If one of your parents/grandparents were a Slav, then you're partially Slav. How much genetic heritage? Don't know, but the more genetic Slav you are, the closer you'll be to that heritage. If you're 1/1000th Slav you probably wouldn't even know it. Oh, we have partial Slavs now? I guess, there is a way to look at this, as long as we agree there are no full Slavs anymore and everybody is a partial Slav. Just more partial and less partial, as per Slav grading "system".
Original Slavs departed from ground zero, expanded around Eastern Europe and mixed with autohtons. In Balkans with Balkanic populations in Poland, Czech and East Germany with Germanics. Some in bigger proportions some with smaller.


If you're 1/1000th Slav you probably wouldn't even know it. But according to your "partial Slav" grading, still a Slav, right? As long as he/she knows it?


Those seem to be the dominant haplogroups associated with the proto-slavs, so yeah that's the way I see it. So German with R1a Y chromosome will be Slav, and Greek with I2 will be Slav too? Never mind that it is only 2% of total DNA?

gidai
23-11-18, 22:20
(...) So German with R1a Y chromosome will be Slav, and Greek with I2 will be Slav too? Never mind that it is only 2% of total DNA?
:grin:So it's not clear yet!? :thinking:

mihaitzateo
23-11-18, 23:15
The peculiar thing about Serbo-Croats is that they used to be until quite recently one of the few truly patrilineal peoples in the world. This means that a woman fully adopted the tribal identity of her husband upon marriage. There are volumes in places like Hercegovina with meticulously recorded genealogies spanning centuries that do not contain as much as a single female name, because marilineal descent wasn't recognized at all. In these places Slavic identity was always inherited along the male line, which is why we see such y-haplogroup profiles there.

This might have been a custom that was adopted from Paleo-Balkanic peoples, but as hard to believe as it is today, the influence of Islam might have led to women being held in higher regard among Albanians and Muslim Slavs. This is why these cultural features are more prominent among the Christians of Montenegro and Bosnia.
The clans from Balkans are similar to the clans from Scotland and Ireland.
Another strange thing, Montenegrins have clans and they have mostly red beards and auburn hair is quite present at Montenegrins.
So maybe these clans structures were remnant from Keltoi/Gauls that were in Balkans.
The clans structure is most present at Albanians and Montenegrins.
See what Coon is finding between Montenegrins from around 1900, when he wrote "Races of Europe":
"The Montenegrins are prevailingly dark brown in head hair color; in Old Montenegro some 45 per cent of adult males belong to this class, while 20 per cent are medium brown, and 26 per cent auburn, or brown with a perceptible reddish tinge. The tribesmen of Brda and the northern border are somewhat darker, and show less rufosity. The beards are much lighter than the head hair; among Old Montenegrins 43 per cent are reddish brown, and 8 per cent contain a pure red element; only 17 per cent are dark brown. In Brda golden-brown beards are extremely common, as frequent as 39 per cent; in the northern border tribes, 24 per cent. The rufosity of the Montenegrins, and their tendency to golden blondism, is not only extreme, but is particularly unusual for this part of Europe. It will be recalled that the Serbians, traditionally close relatives of the Montenegrins, are much darker haired, and that the Slavs in general, when blond, favor the ash-blond side of the scale, being almost entirely deficient in rufosity."

Now from my knowledge there is only 1 group of populations in Europe that have mostly reddish beards and those are Celtic ethnicities.
Since the Montenegrins are preserving the clans structure, is quite easy to find out the paternal lines, because the family name is transmitted by the father.
So just take people with I2-din and see what family names they got.
And see if these names are all of them of Slavic origins.
A similar thing was made in England, to know the origins of certain paternal lines, cause paternal lines in England are also quite diverse and was difficult to know who brought what group.

LABERIA
23-11-18, 23:55
The clans from Balkans are similar to the clans from Scotland and Ireland.
Another strange thing, Montenegrins have clans and they have mostly red beards and auburn hair is quite present at Montenegrins.
So maybe these clans structures were remnant from Keltoi/Gauls that were in Balkans.
The clans structure is most present at Albanians and Montenegrins.
See what Coon is finding between Montenegrins from around 1900, when he wrote "Races of Europe":
"The Montenegrins are prevailingly dark brown in head hair color; in Old Montenegro some 45 per cent of adult males belong to this class, while 20 per cent are medium brown, and 26 per cent auburn, or brown with a perceptible reddish tinge. The tribesmen of Brda and the northern border are somewhat darker, and show less rufosity. The beards are much lighter than the head hair; among Old Montenegrins 43 per cent are reddish brown, and 8 per cent contain a pure red element; only 17 per cent are dark brown. In Brda golden-brown beards are extremely common, as frequent as 39 per cent; in the northern border tribes, 24 per cent. The rufosity of the Montenegrins, and their tendency to golden blondism, is not only extreme, but is particularly unusual for this part of Europe. It will be recalled that the Serbians, traditionally close relatives of the Montenegrins, are much darker haired, and that the Slavs in general, when blond, favor the ash-blond side of the scale, being almost entirely deficient in rufosity."

Now from my knowledge there is only 1 group of populations in Europe that have mostly reddish beards and those are Celtic ethnicities.
Since the Montenegrins are preserving the clans structure, is quite easy to find out the paternal lines, because the family name is transmitted by the father.
So just take people with I2-din and see what family names they got.
And see if these names are all of them of Slavic origins.
A similar thing was made in England, to know the origins of certain paternal lines, cause paternal lines in England are also quite diverse and was difficult to know who brought what group.

Coon also said this:

"The Montenegrins, who are the tallest people in Europe, live on a barren limestone mountain upland, where they, for centuries, succeeded in maintaining their Christianity and their freedom while surrounded by the Turks. They, like the northern Albanians, preserve their old exogamous clan organization, and their clan loyalties and feuds. They are linguistically Serbs, but there can be no question that they are to a large extent Slavicized Albanians; the cultural continuity between the two peoples is striking, the only real differences being those of language and religion."


Source:
Stevens Coon Carleton The Races Of Europe page 591

https://archive.org/details/racesofeurope031695mbp/page/n719

LABERIA
23-11-18, 23:58
The peculiar thing about Serbo-Croats is that they used to be until quite recently one of the few truly patrilineal peoples in the world. This means that a woman fully adopted the tribal identity of her husband upon marriage. There are volumes in places like Hercegovina with meticulously recorded genealogies spanning centuries that do not contain as much as a single female name, because marilineal descent wasn't recognized at all. In these places Slavic identity was always inherited along the male line, which is why we see such y-haplogroup profiles there.

This might have been a custom that was adopted from Paleo-Balkanic peoples, but as hard to believe as it is today, the influence of Islam might have led to women being held in higher regard among Albanians and Muslim Slavs. This is why these cultural features are more prominent among the Christians of Montenegro and Bosnia.
I think you are wrong.

markod
24-11-18, 00:10
The clans from Balkans are similar to the clans from Scotland and Ireland.
Another strange thing, Montenegrins have clans and they have mostly red beards and auburn hair is quite present at Montenegrins.
So maybe these clans structures were remnant from Keltoi/Gauls that were in Balkans.
The clans structure is most present at Albanians and Montenegrins.
See what Coon is finding between Montenegrins from around 1900, when he wrote "Races of Europe":
"The Montenegrins are prevailingly dark brown in head hair color; in Old Montenegro some 45 per cent of adult males belong to this class, while 20 per cent are medium brown, and 26 per cent auburn, or brown with a perceptible reddish tinge. The tribesmen of Brda and the northern border are somewhat darker, and show less rufosity. The beards are much lighter than the head hair; among Old Montenegrins 43 per cent are reddish brown, and 8 per cent contain a pure red element; only 17 per cent are dark brown. In Brda golden-brown beards are extremely common, as frequent as 39 per cent; in the northern border tribes, 24 per cent. The rufosity of the Montenegrins, and their tendency to golden blondism, is not only extreme, but is particularly unusual for this part of Europe. It will be recalled that the Serbians, traditionally close relatives of the Montenegrins, are much darker haired, and that the Slavs in general, when blond, favor the ash-blond side of the scale, being almost entirely deficient in rufosity."

Now from my knowledge there is only 1 group of populations in Europe that have mostly reddish beards and those are Celtic ethnicities.
Since the Montenegrins are preserving the clans structure, is quite easy to find out the paternal lines, because the family name is transmitted by the father.
So just take people with I2-din and see what family names they got.
And see if these names are all of them of Slavic origins.
A similar thing was made in England, to know the origins of certain paternal lines, cause paternal lines in England are also quite diverse and was difficult to know who brought what group.

No, pure patrilineality was more or less exclusive to the Balkans in Europe. The pre-Roman Celts weren't strongly biased towards patrilineality at all. The richest Celtic kurgans in South-Western Germany show that maternal descent was extremely important, with the clans more often being structured around high status women.

The Croats of Bosnia were the most strongly patrilineal in historical times it seems.

gidai
24-11-18, 00:27
mihaitzateo (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/30250-mihaitzateo) and LABERIA (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/50703-LABERIA) I have now white hair with ages. but I had beard and mustache in the reddish spectrum in youth and also 1.92 m tall... lool! Interesting fact.:grin:

HiveMindTerror
24-11-18, 00:29
Oh, we have partial Slavs now? I guess, there is a way to look at this, as long as we agree there are no full Slavs anymore and everybody is a partial Slav. Just more partial and less partial, as per Slav grading "system".
Original Slavs departed from ground zero, expanded around Eastern Europe and mixed with autohtons. In Balkans with Balkanic populations in Poland, Czech and East Germany with Germanics. Some in bigger proportions some with smaller.

But according to your "partial Slav" grading, still a Slav, right? As long as he/she knows it?

So German with R1a Y chromosome will be Slav, and Greek with I2 will be Slav too? Never mind that it is only 2% of total DNA?

Well then I guess its up to heritage and what is passed down your family. You'll know your Slavic or not. Or by what your saying I guess im African or Japanese whenever I feel like it

gidai
24-11-18, 01:04
Well then I guess its up to heritage and what is passed down your family. You'll know your Slavic or not. Or by what your saying I guess im African or Japanese whenever I feel like it

I think We must be proud of what we are. :grin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrWwpzYOrRI

LeBrok
24-11-18, 01:33
Well then I guess its up to heritage and what is passed down your family. You'll know your Slavic or not. Or by what your saying I guess im African or Japanese whenever I feel like it
We did this exercise to point to you how complicated the subject is. Especially when population of Slavs is mixed genetically and of many customs, food, music and traditions. They are bound by language mostly, or maybe only these days.


I guess im African Again, Africa is so diverse that if you lived in Africa now, you could call yourself African. This wouldn't conflict with being "partial" Slav, European, Christian or Jew.


Well then I guess its up to heritage and what is passed down your family. Well, there is not much being passed of Slavic traditions now. Not the folk music and dances, not the folk clothing, not the Slavic original pagan religion, not the Slavic food (if there is something like Slavic food). Nothing much but the language basically.

HiveMindTerror
24-11-18, 02:02
We did this exercise to point to you how complicated the subject is. Especially when population of Slavs is mixed genetically and of many customs, food, music and traditions. They are bound by language mostly, or maybe only these days.

Again, Africa is so diverse that if you lived in Africa now, you could call yourself African. This wouldn't conflict with being "partial" Slav, European, Christian or Jew.

Well, there is not much being passed of Slavic traditions now. Not the folk music and dances, not the folk clothing, not the Slavic original pagan religion, not the Slavic food (if there is something like Slavic food). Nothing much but the language basically.

Cultures change over time. Whatever part of the mixed Slavs is from another. As we said, South Slavs are Slavs that mixed with balkanic folk. We arent Puerto Rican

Wonomyro
24-11-18, 13:33
We did this exercise to point to you how complicated the subject is. Especially when population of Slavs is mixed genetically and of many customs, food, music and traditions. They are bound by language mostly, or maybe only these days.

Again, Africa is so diverse that if you lived in Africa now, you could call yourself African. This wouldn't conflict with being "partial" Slav, European, Christian or Jew.

Well, there is not much being passed of Slavic traditions now. Not the folk music and dances, not the folk clothing, not the Slavic original pagan religion, not the Slavic food (if there is something like Slavic food). Nothing much but the language basically.

Not quite true. Some folk songs still keep a memory of pagan gods.

Do not underestimate language as a backbone of any ethnic identity.

In Croatian case, I can present you evidences of ethnic awareness of people throughout history, as well as a language continuity. Croats have been Slavs in 9th century as well as in 21st century.


Nothing much but the language basically[/B].

Genetics too, as it was already presented.

mihaitzateo
24-11-18, 14:45
Please note that Aromanians, which are still speaking Romanian dialects, do have I2-din, significant or lots of it.
Or whatever, they have some kind of I2-A.
Aromanians have the custom to marry only with Aromanians, so is safe to suppose they have not mixed with Goths and they have not mixed with Slavic migrants that started to come around 600 AD (or earlier) either.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x
A very strange thing is that are some Aromanians that are having 42% summed clades of I (of which most should be I2-din).
These Aromanians, which are from Albania, are also having 36.8% R1B and no R1A.
So, clearly, not only Slavs brought I2 in Balkans.
Whatever, these Aromanians with 42% I, would be very interesting to have their I analyzed, to see what clades are found.
I am supposing most of it is I2-a.

Wonomyro
24-11-18, 16:22
Please note that Aromanians, which are still speaking Romanian dialects, do have I2-din, significant or lots of it. Or whatever, they have some kind of I2-A. Aromanians have the custom to marry only with Aromanians, so is safe to suppose they have not mixed with Goths and they have not mixed with Slavic migrants that started to come around 600 AD (or earlier) either. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x A very strange thing is that are some Aromanians that are having 42% summed clades of I (of which most should be I2-din). These Aromanians, which are from Albania, are also having 36.8% R1B and no R1A. So, clearly, not only Slavs brought I2 in Balkans. Whatever, these Aromanians with 42% I, would be very interesting to have their I analyzed, to see what clades are found. I am supposing most of it is I2-a.

Ok, then let us see how Romanian speakers “brought I2 in Balkans” and where from. Where did the Romance languages came from to Balkans in the first place?

Fatherland
24-11-18, 20:06
Please note that Aromanians, which are still speaking Romanian dialects, do have I2-din, significant or lots of it.
Or whatever, they have some kind of I2-A.
Aromanians have the custom to marry only with Aromanians, so is safe to suppose they have not mixed with Goths and they have not mixed with Slavic migrants that started to come around 600 AD (or earlier) either.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x
A very strange thing is that are some Aromanians that are having 42% summed clades of I (of which most should be I2-din).
These Aromanians, which are from Albania, are also having 36.8% R1B and no R1A.
So, clearly, not only Slavs brought I2 in Balkans.
Whatever, these Aromanians with 42% I, would be very interesting to have their I analyzed, to see what clades are found.
I am supposing most of it is I2-a.
There are Aromanians with 22.4% R1a.

Their I2a1b-CTS10228 was brought by Slavs mixing with them.

Tutkun Arnaut
24-11-18, 20:58
The clans from Balkans are similar to the clans from Scotland and Ireland.
Another strange thing, Montenegrins have clans and they have mostly red beards and auburn hair is quite present at Montenegrins.
So maybe these clans structures were remnant from Keltoi/Gauls that were in Balkans.
The clans structure is most present at Albanians and Montenegrins.
See what Coon is finding between Montenegrins from around 1900, when he wrote "Races of Europe":
"The Montenegrins are prevailingly dark brown in head hair color; in Old Montenegro some 45 per cent of adult males belong to this class, while 20 per cent are medium brown, and 26 per cent auburn, or brown with a perceptible reddish tinge. The tribesmen of Brda and the northern border are somewhat darker, and show less rufosity. The beards are much lighter than the head hair; among Old Montenegrins 43 per cent are reddish brown, and 8 per cent contain a pure red element; only 17 per cent are dark brown. In Brda golden-brown beards are extremely common, as frequent as 39 per cent; in the northern border tribes, 24 per cent. The rufosity of the Montenegrins, and their tendency to golden blondism, is not only extreme, but is particularly unusual for this part of Europe. It will be recalled that the Serbians, traditionally close relatives of the Montenegrins, are much darker haired, and that the Slavs in general, when blond, favor the ash-blond side of the scale, being almost entirely deficient in rufosity."

Now from my knowledge there is only 1 group of populations in Europe that have mostly reddish beards and those are Celtic ethnicities.
Since the Montenegrins are preserving the clans structure, is quite easy to find out the paternal lines, because the family name is transmitted by the father.
So just take people with I2-din and see what family names they got.
And see if these names are all of them of Slavic origins.
A similar thing was made in England, to know the origins of certain paternal lines, cause paternal lines in England are also quite diverse and was difficult to know who brought what group.

Are you aware that Montenegro is the size of a middle sized village in China?
Are you aware that 40% of Montenegrin population is ethnic Serbs? Are you aware that the rest 20% of that so called country are Albanians and Bosnia's?
Are you aware that when you speak about Montenegrin's you are speaking about Slavisized Albanians sometimes mixed with Serbs through marriages?
Are you aware that those who call themselves Montenegrin's do not exceed 200 000 people?
Are you aware of recent president Trump interview that those people are very aggressive and could start WWW3?
Are you aware when you speak about Montenegro you are wasting your time.?
Don't you think that there is not such a think as Montenegrin ethnicity?

gidai
24-11-18, 21:24
Haplogroup I was widespread in the Balkans and Europe before the Neolithic. It is found in human remains from over 32,000 years ago (Paglicci Cave). I2a1 was here in Balkans all the time for over 10000 years ago.
I think any haplogroups can grow from 1% to almost 100%, or from almost 100% to extinction in only 15-25 generations (a few centuries) for biological reasons, such as a slightly higher number of male offspring in case of some new subclade of its like I2a-din, to the detriment of others haplogroups or subclades. And for this... no one ask it if wants to be called Slavic, Latin, Greek, or otherwise! :rolleyes2:

Wonomyro
24-11-18, 21:29
Are you aware that Montenegro is the size of a middle sized village in China? Are you aware that 40% of Montenegrin population is ethnic Serbs? Are you aware that the rest 20% of that so called country are Albanians and Bosnia's? Are you aware that when you speak about Montenegrin's you are speaking about Slavisized Albanians sometimes mixed with Serbs through marriages? Are you aware that those who call themselves Montenegrin's do not exceed 200 000 people? Are you aware of recent president Trump interview that those people are very aggressive and could start WWW3? Are you aware when you speak about Montenegro you are wasting your time.? Don't you think that there is not such a think as Montenegrin ethnicity? Obviously, there is a modern nation called Montenegrins and we should respect that. Their "Serb" identity is related to the fact that they are officially still under a jurisdiction of Serb Orthodox Church. In an Orthodox Christian word, a church jurisdiction was very often misinterpreted as ethnicity. Before and during 19th century, in Montenegro and Dalmatia, the term "Serb" (as well as Greek!) meant an Orthodox believer and nothing else.

td120
24-11-18, 21:54
In an Orthodox Christian word, a church jurisdiction was very often misinterpreted as ethnicity.

In an Orthodox Christian word, a church jurisdiction very often incorporated several different ethnicities.

This might have been misinterpreted by the outside world of course.

Both laity and clergy were well aware who was who and how they identified.

Wonomyro
24-11-18, 22:27
In an Orthodox Christian word, a church jurisdiction very often incorporated several different ethnicities. This might have been misinterpreted by the outside world of course. Yes. Even some western historians still don’t get that.
Both laity and clergy were well aware who was who and how they identified. In the past, yes. However, during the period of national awakening in the 19th century a power of religion was often used as a tool for homogenization of populations around national ideas.

hrvat22
24-11-18, 22:34
riginally Posted by Tutkun Arnauthttps://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png
(https://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=558700#post558700)Are you aware that Montenegro is the size of a middle sized village in China? Are you aware that 40% of Montenegrin population is ethnic Serbs? Are you aware that the rest 20% of that so called country are Albanians and Bosnia's? Are you aware that when you speak about Montenegrin's you are speaking about Slavisized Albanians sometimes mixed with Serbs through marriages? Are you aware that those who call themselves Montenegrin's do not exceed 200 000 people? Are you aware of recent president Trump interview that those people are very aggressive and could start WWW3? Are you aware when you speak about Montenegro you are wasting your time.? Don't you think that there is not such a think as Montenegrin ethnicity?

First we must start from beginning, for now historical data and genetics clearly show that to the Balkans only come Croatians, that is if we follow I2a subclades.
For R1a subclades I'm not sure yet because there is not much data, but subclades that Croats have exist in southern Poland ie. White Croatia.

Historical record of Croatians in Montenegro, Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyrogennetos) 10th century (Croats in Illyria and Roman Dalmatia), 12th century Chronicle of the Priest of Dioclea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicle_of_the_Priest_of_Dioclea),
Red Croatia (Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language): Croatia Rubea, Croatian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_language): Crvena Hrvatska) is a historical term used for the southeastern parts of Roman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome) Dalmatia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia_(Roman_province)) and some other territories, including parts of present-day Montenegro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro), Albania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania) Muhamed el Idrisi, (Ceuta (https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta), 1099 (https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/1099) – Palermo (https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palermo), 1164 (https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/1164)) Dubrovnik last city in Croatia, Ivan Skilica (Ivan Skilices) (grč (https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C4%8Dki_jezik). Ιωάννης Σκυλίτζης) 11th century,
"The Bulgarian rulers asked Mihajlo, ruler of those who are called Croats, who ruled from Kotor(Montenegro)
Michael, Michael in Cyrillic, the original king in the Montenegrin history, chief Duklean state of Vojislavljević dynasty from 1046. to 1081.1526. Turkish Census of Bosnian Army, Croats in Nikšić (central Montenegro) and Sandžak north border of Montenegro, Derviş Mehmed Zillî (25 March 1611 – 1682), known as Evliya Çelebi mentione Croats in central Montenegro and on the coast of Montenegro, there is also Croatian ethnonyms in that area.

There is very little direct information about Serbs in Montenegro, but genetics has spoken, Serbs to Roman Dalmatia comes from Greece, nobody in Montenegro or Croatia with I2a and R1a types comes from Greece at least not in the 7th century.

LABERIA
24-11-18, 22:36
Yes. Even some western historians still don’t get that. In the past, yes. However, during the period of national awakening in the 19th century a power of religion was often used as a tool for homogenization populations around national ideas.
Assimilation of populations, is the right word in my opinion. There was a war between Orthodox Churches in Balcans, trying to steal the belivers to each other.

td120
24-11-18, 22:52
Well, the flock was pretty determined too to take sides in the conflicts during the Ottoman rule...

Wonomyro
24-11-18, 22:53
Assimilation of populations, is the right word in my opinion. There was a war between Orthodox Churches in Balcans, trying to steal the belivers to each other. Some did also shopping. :D

LABERIA
24-11-18, 22:56
Some did also shopping. :D

They continue even today, 300 euro of monthly pension, this is the price.

Wonomyro
24-11-18, 23:16
They continue even today, 300 euro of monthly pension, this is the price.


Nadležnost nad pravoslavnim vernicima Makedonije je stečena isplatom Carigradskoj patrijaršiji[3], te zabranom Bugarske crkve.[4]

Translated: "The jurisdiction over the Orthodox believers of North Macedonia was gained by [B]paying an amount to Patriarchate of Constantinople, and banning of the Bulgarian Church". (https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srpska_pravoslavna_crkva). The population was called "South Serbians" ever since.

Now we can continue with genetics...

Sile
24-11-18, 23:34
well according to Dibran;
"There already is evidence in what Illyrians carried and it wasn’t I2a-Din. However many South Slavs seem to have an issue with this reality(not saying you)*. The affinity Albanians share with Greeks is mostly autosomal paleobalkan ancestry. J2b-L283, the parent clade to E-V13 and R1b have all been found in Paleo Balkan remains of Illyrian territory. J2b-L283 specifically in a Proto Illyrian from Dalmatia. All three of these lineages are overwhelmingly found among Albanians and practically minimal in South Slavs. Additionally Mycenaean and Minoan remains were J2a, the variety of which is found predominantly in Greeks and Albanians barely have this haplogroup. "
Apparently Illyrian remains don't carry any I2, although I don't know his source on this. Have people dug up ancient burials to research haplogroups and genetics? Also I don't know the what the difference is with autosomal dna and haplogroups.
*I don't think we have any issues with anything, we just want to know. Over the years I've heard it go from: "Oh yeah, Croats are Sarmatians, 100%." Then "Oh yeah Croats are Illyrians 100%." Now it's "Oh yeah Croats are Slavs 100%." Speaking for myself, I just plain want to know where I come from, who my ancestors were. I think the Illyrian theory in particular seems so credible because, as I said in my OP: we're so unique when compared to other European ethnic groups (even Slavs), and are closest to one another genetically. That the only population in Europe who is very closely related, happens to be in a region of Europe where a very unique ancient ethnic group once existed that had their own language and existed only there, just seems very intriguing. Either way, I'm not saying we are Illyrian or whatever, I just want to know. If they dig up Sarmatian burial mounds one day and all the males are I2a I'll be just as cool with that lmao.
he is assuming on I2 thinking, based on what slavs have ............and that's why he counts it out as being illyrian............
but, Illyrians arrived in east-austria circa 1600BC from east of modern moldova ..........so they can/could carry I2
The J2b scenario has already been explained....it cannot be illyrian as they where not in the area at the time
.
this link below only study J2b
read what they say about that marker
https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-l283-origins-by-diversity-and-subgroups-focus-jewish-lineages/

Wonomyro
25-11-18, 00:07
he is assuming on I2 thinking, based on what slavs have ............and that's why he counts it out as being illyrian............
but, Illyrians arrived in east-austria circa 1600BC from east of modern moldova ..........so they can/could carry I2
The J2b scenario has already been explained....it cannot be illyrian as they where not in the area at the time
.
this link below only study J2b
read what they say about that marker
https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-l283-origins-by-diversity-and-subgroups-focus-jewish-lineages/

IMO, the biggest issue with the "Illyrian" theory is that virtually we can't find any trace of I2a1b-CTS10228 on the other territories of the former Roman Empire. It is well known that the Romans were dividing and deporting parts of populations to different locations within Empire thus permanently pacifying them. That is what had happened after the great Illyrian revolt:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Illyrian_Revolt


The Romans, aside from committing atrocities[39] during the war, split up Illyrian tribes into different groups from the ones they had previously composed. (...) Other members of tribes were probably sold as slaves.[41] or deported to different locations, such as the Azali.[42]

Many Roman soldiers were of Illyrian origin, and many of Illyrian civilians were romanized. It is hard to believe that none of the romanized Illyrians escaped to Italy after the collapse of the Danubian limes.

HiveMindTerror
25-11-18, 06:53
Not quite true. Some folk songs still keep a memory of pagan gods.

Do not underestimate language as a backbone of any ethnic identity.

In Croatian case, I can present you evidences of ethnic awareness of people throughout history, as well as a language continuity. Croats have been Slavs in 9th century as well as in 21st century.



Genetics too, as it was already presented.

Slovenia has a mountain called Triglav, similar to the Slavic pagan gods worshipped in Poland. Croatia has a memorial plaque of Perun that was carved in the dark ages. And like Wonomyro said, language isn't nothing it's huge. I can understand maybe 1/5th of what my Russian friends are saying, to the point where we make it a game sometimes. My Ukranian friend actually told me how her grandparents told her how they were taught that the old Croats lived in the mountains to the west of their town.

HiveMindTerror
25-11-18, 07:03
IMO, the biggest issue with the "Illyrian" theory is that virtually we can't find any trace of I2a1b-CTS10228 on the other territories of the former Roman Empire. It is well known that the Romans were dividing and deporting parts of populations to different locations within Empire thus permanently pacifying them. That is what had happened after the great Illyrian revolt:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Illyrian_Revolt



Many Roman soldiers were of Illyrian origin, and many of Illyrian civilians were romanized. It is hard to believe that none of the romanized Illyrians escaped to Italy after the collapse of the Danubian limes.

Well the slaves were torn apart from their families and sold all across the Empire. I2 exists in small minority groups in almost every European country. We also don't know the populations of these tribes. If I recall correctly, many were sent to Dacia, which has a large spike of I2. Not saying it is Illyrian, just saying it seems possible.

And yeah a lot of Roman soldiers were Illyrian, but in comparison to the rest of the ethnic groups of the empire the Illyrians must have been a tiny minority, doubtful to make massive genetic impacts all over the place. And generally I think they were mostly concentrated around the Balkans.

Wonomyro
25-11-18, 08:37
Well the slaves were torn apart from their families and sold all across the Empire. I2 exists in small minority groups in almost every European country. We also don't know the populations of these tribes. If I recall correctly, many were sent to Dacia, which has a large spike of I2. Not saying it is Illyrian, just saying it seems possible. And yeah a lot of Roman soldiers were Illyrian, but in comparison to the rest of the ethnic groups of the empire the Illyrians must have been a tiny minority, doubtful to make massive genetic impacts all over the place. And generally I think they were mostly concentrated around the Balkans. I hope that you noticed that here we mentioned a specific subclade of I2 which is I2a1b-CTS10228. It is virtually absent in the territories of former Roman Empire which were never exposed to Slavic migrations.

mihaitzateo
25-11-18, 15:12
As I wrote above, a very good method to get some ideas about I2-din from Montenegro,Serbia,Bosnia, Croatia and even FYROM will be something like this:
Make genetic testing in non-large cities, of the people there.
Who is I2 or I1 or I, should have the family name analyzed.
The family name in most cases tells the ethnic origins of a person. Sure, on paternal line.
On maternal line, is a lot more complicated.
In England, they know that are names of Norman origin (Normans spoke Old French), names of Scandinavian origin (of the people speaking Old Norse) etc.
I am thinking that even in Croatia, which seems most Slavic, from ex-Yugo nations, not even 60% of the paternal lines are of Slavic origins.
Regarding this thread, if someone from ex-Yugo nations is having their paternal ancestors from Celts or from Goths, how should we consider that person?
For Goths, rather Slavic?
For Celts, rather Balkanic, or we should not take that person into account?
Is clear that Thracians, Dacians and Greeks are included in the Balkanic people.

Let us take an example,most frequent family name in Croatia is Horvat.
Horvat is clearly a person which has Slavic paternal ancestors.

For Serbia, persons with the family name "Vucic" are most likely Slavizied Dacians.
Vuc - wolf.
Dacians - wolf people.
In Croatia, the people that are having paternal line from Dacians, have the name Vukovic.


Let us take Croatia, why only some people of Croatia have the family name "Horvat" meaning, Croat?
Do you think that the people with the family Knežević are of Slavic origins?

HiveMindTerror
25-11-18, 17:44
Wolves were as relevant to Slavs as to Dacians or anyone that had to deal with them. Surnames are irrelevant (mostly). I'm a history buff and this is the first time I've heard of Dacians being "wolf people". Tribal people all feared wolves because they depended on live stock. Some groups had more special roles for them like the norse (Fenrir) or even Latins (Remus and Romulus). Doesnt mean the Vucic line is Norse or Latin

My Croatian is rusty sadly but Knezevic may come from Knez. The serbo-croatian word for a prince/lord/duke. In Russian i believe its Knjaz or something along those lines. Very similar.

gidai
25-11-18, 19:42
History, languages, cultures, religions, countries, empires... I think are all complicated human inventions.
Here's what I found about the frequency of specific Balkans category genes found in different countries around the world. ...
https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/balkan/ethnicity-worldwide-distribution
Great spread, isn't it? Even japanese or Thai people have over 7% and 11% Balkans.

Serbia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/serbia/country-ethnicity-distribution) 95.9%
Croaţia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/croatia/country-ethnicity-distribution) 89.4%
Slovenia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/slovenia/country-ethnicity-distribution) 87.1%
România (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/romania/country-ethnicity-distribution) 86.1%
Bulgaria (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/bulgaria/country-ethnicity-distribution) 81.3%
Slovacia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/slovakia/country-ethnicity-distribution) 78.6%
Ungaria (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/hungary/country-ethnicity-distribution) 74.1%
Republica Cehă (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/czech-republic/country-ethnicity-distribution) 67.2%
Ucraina (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/ukraine/country-ethnicity-distribution)65.9%
Belarus (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/belarus/country-ethnicity-distribution) 56.6%
Austria (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/austria/country-ethnicity-distribution) 54.8%
Polonia 47.6%
Rusia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/russia/country-ethnicity-distribution) 43.4%
Kazahstan (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/kazakhstan/country-ethnicity-distribution) 41.1%
Germania (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/germany/country-ethnicity-distribution) 30.6%
Lituania (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/lithuania/country-ethnicity-distribution) 30.2%
Grecia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/greece/country-ethnicity-distribution) 29.2%
Letonia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/latvia/country-ethnicity-distribution) 23.7%
Elveţia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/switzerland/country-ethnicity-distribution) 21.6%
Turcia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/turkey/country-ethnicity-distribution) 20%
Estonia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/estonia/country-ethnicity-distribution) 19.8%
Luxemburg (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/luxembourg/country-ethnicity-distribution) 18.5%
Italia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/italy/country-ethnicity-distribution) 13.1%
Canada (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/canada/country-ethnicity-distribution) 12.6%
Panama (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/panama/country-ethnicity-distribution) 12.5%
Thailanda (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/thailand/country-ethnicity-distribution) 11.4%
Brazilia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/brazil/country-ethnicity-distribution) 11.1%
Cipru (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/cyprus/country-ethnicity-distribution) 10.7%
Franţa (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/france/country-ethnicity-distribution) 10.6%
Statele Unite ale Americii (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/usa/country-ethnicity-distribution) 10.4%
Belgia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/belgium/country-ethnicity-distribution) 9.9%
Chile (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/chile/country-ethnicity-distribution) 8.6%
Malta (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/malta/country-ethnicity-distribution) 8.2%
Islanda (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/iceland/country-ethnicity-distribution) 7.9%
Argentina (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/argentina/country-ethnicity-distribution) 7.8%
Australia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/australia/country-ethnicity-distribution) 7.6%
Emiratele Arabe Unite (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/united-arab-emirates/country-ethnicity-distribution) 7.6%
Japonia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/japan/country-ethnicity-distribution) 7.1%
Suedia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/sweden/country-ethnicity-distribution) 6.7%
Portugalia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/portugal/country-ethnicity-distribution) 6.5%
Africa de Sud (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/south-africa/country-ethnicity-distribution) 6.3%
Spania (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/spain/country-ethnicity-distribution) 5.9%
Singapore (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/singapore/country-ethnicity-distribution) 5.4%
Danemarca (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/denmark/country-ethnicity-distribution) 5.4%
Marea Britanie (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/great-britain/country-ethnicity-distribution) 5.3%
Olanda (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/netherlands/country-ethnicity-distribution) 5.1%
Israel (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/israel/country-ethnicity-distribution) 5.1%
Irlanda (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/ireland/country-ethnicity-distribution) 4.6%
Peru (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/peru/country-ethnicity-distribution) 4.3%
Mexic (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/mexico/country-ethnicity-distribution) 4.1%
Noua Zeelandă (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/new-zealand/country-ethnicity-distribution) 4%
Norvegia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/norway/country-ethnicity-distribution) 3.9%
Columbia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/colombia/country-ethnicity-distribution) 3.5%
Hong Kong (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/hong-kong/country-ethnicity-distribution) 3.2%
Puerto Rico (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/puerto-rico/country-ethnicity-distribution) 2.9%
Costa Rica (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/costa-rica/country-ethnicity-distribution) 2.9%
Bahrain (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/bahrain/country-ethnicity-distribution) 2.6%
Finlanda (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/finland/country-ethnicity-distribution) 2.5%
China (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/china/country-ethnicity-distribution) 2.5%
Arabia Saudită (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/saudi-arabia/country-ethnicity-distribution) 2.4%
Bermuda (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/bermuda/country-ethnicity-distribution) 2.4%
Malaysia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/malaysia/country-ethnicity-distribution) 2.1%
Filipine (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/philippines/country-ethnicity-distribution) 1.4%
India (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/india/country-ethnicity-distribution) 0.7%

Wonomyro
25-11-18, 20:34
History, languages, cultures, religions, countries, empires... I think are all complicated human inventions. Here's what I found about the frequency of specific Balkans category genes found in different countries around the world. ... https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/balkan/ethnicity-worldwide-distribution Great spread, isn't it? Even japanese or Thai people have over 7% and 11% Balkans. Serbia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/serbia/country-ethnicity-distribution) 95.9% Croaţia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/croatia/country-ethnicity-distribution) 89.4% Slovenia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/slovenia/country-ethnicity-distribution) 87.1% România (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/romania/country-ethnicity-distribution) 86.1% Bulgaria (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/bulgaria/country-ethnicity-distribution) 81.3% Slovacia (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/slovakia/country-ethnicity-distribution) 78.6% Ungaria (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/hungary/country-ethnicity-distribution) 74.1% Republica Cehă (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/czech-republic/country-ethnicity-distribution) 67.2% Ucraina (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/ukraine/country-ethnicity-distribution)65.9% Belarus (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/belarus/country-ethnicity-distribution) 56.6% Austria (https://www.myheritage.ro/ethnicities/austria/country-ethnicity-distribution) 54.8% Polonia 47.6% Hilarious :D

gidai
25-11-18, 20:58
Hilarious :D
What? Also 90% of Croatian people have Balkanic ethnicity!... :grin:

It is true that all passing through here have spread all over and even through Russia. No category of "slav" to see how many percent it has in the Balkans.:disappointed:

Wonomyro
25-11-18, 21:21
What? Also 90% of Croatian people have Balkanic ethnicity!...


That would be even more hilarious... I mean, ETHNICITY?..:embarassed: :laughing:

mihaitzateo
25-11-18, 22:27
Wolves were as relevant to Slavs as to Dacians or anyone that had to deal with them. Surnames are irrelevant (mostly). I'm a history buff and this is the first time I've heard of Dacians being "wolf people". Tribal people all feared wolves because they depended on live stock. Some groups had more special roles for them like the norse (Fenrir) or even Latins (Remus and Romulus). Doesnt mean the Vucic line is Norse or Latin

My Croatian is rusty sadly but Knezevic may come from Knez. The serbo-croatian word for a prince/lord/duke. In Russian i believe its Knjaz or something along those lines. Very similar.
Well, Knezevic should be from Croatia high ranked boyars I am supposing.
Which should be mostly Slavs ruling class.
Would be really interesting to see the Y DNA of the people called Knezevic.
I am supposing they are over 90% some R1A-M458 branches.
But that is my supposition.
As for people called Horvat, I am guessing they miss E and J paternal lines.
I would be really curious to see what paternal lines are bearing the males with family names Horvat.
I understand Horvat is also found in Slovakia and Hungary, which shows that Croatian Slavs migrated from current Poland lands.
Now,it is told on another thread that some I2-din branches are also found in Poland.
I am not sure if Serbians came from Poland lands,also,but I suppose that Serbs also came from current Poland lands.


As for wolves, Fenrir was a very negative creature for Scandinavians.
While Romulus and Remus were raised by a female wolf.
So Dacians actually had the wolf as a very good creature.

Would be really interesting for the start to see what Y DNA the people called Knezevic and the people called Horvat.
And would be even more interesting if the people from Hungary and Slovakia having as family name Horvat would be also tested for Y DNA.
Maybe in this way it would be very easy to find how Croats migrated from Poland, in current lands of Slovakia after, in current lands of Hungary and after, they moved into the current lands of Croatia.

LeBrok
25-11-18, 23:06
Wolves were as relevant to Slavs as to Dacians or anyone that had to deal with them. Surnames are irrelevant (mostly). I'm a history buff and this is the first time I've heard of Dacians being "wolf people". Tribal people all feared wolves because they depended on live stock. Some groups had more special roles for them like the norse (Fenrir) or even Latins (Remus and Romulus). Doesnt mean the Vucic line is Norse or Latin

My Croatian is rusty sadly but Knezevic may come from Knez. The serbo-croatian word for a prince/lord/duke. In Russian i believe its Knjaz or something along those lines. Very similar.
Most likely from or related to germanic or german form of kunig, kneg, knecht. I don't think original slavic words start with "kn".

Fatherland
26-11-18, 03:56
IMO, the biggest issue with the "Illyrian" theory is that virtually we can't find any trace of I2a1b-CTS10228 on the other territories of the former Roman Empire. It is well known that the Romans were dividing and deporting parts of populations to different locations within Empire thus permanently pacifying them. That is what had happened after the great Illyrian revolt:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Illyrian_Revolt



Many Roman soldiers were of Illyrian origin, and many of Illyrian civilians were romanized. It is hard to believe that none of the romanized Illyrians escaped to Italy after the collapse of the Danubian limes.
While at the same time. Illyrian haplogroups R1b-L23, J2b2-L283 and EV13 can be found in both Italy and Romania.

Fatherland
26-11-18, 03:57
he is assuming on I2 thinking, based on what slavs have ............and that's why he counts it out as being illyrian............
but, Illyrians arrived in east-austria circa 1600BC from east of modern moldova ..........so they can/could carry I2
The J2b scenario has already been explained....it cannot be illyrian as they where not in the area at the time
.
this link below only study J2b
read what they say about that marker
https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-l283-origins-by-diversity-and-subgroups-focus-jewish-lineages/
You are wrong and your posts reek of bias and ignorance, Serbian.

J2b2 is among the best candidates for Illyrian, along with R1b-L23 and EV13.

There is decent amount of J2b2 in Italy, while I2a1b-CTS10228 is 0% there.

If I was sperging like you always are, I would claim J2b2 was brought to India by Alexander The Great's Illyrian soldiers:

https://j2-m172.info/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2015/10/J2b-M102-Project-2009_edit-2015.png

Sile
26-11-18, 05:26
You are wrong and your posts reek of bias and ignorance, Serbian.
J2b2 is among the best candidates for Illyrian, along with R1b-L23 and EV13.
There is decent amount of J2b2 in Italy, while I2a1b-CTS10228 is 0% there.
If I was sperging like you always are, I would claim J2b2 was brought to India by Alexander The Great's Illyrian soldiers:
https://j2-m172.info/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2015/10/J2b-M102-Project-2009_edit-2015.png
There where no illyrians in Alexander's armies, he and his father fought long wars to keep the illyrians at bay
there where Macedonians, Thessalian, Agrianians, all Greeks states except Spartans, Thracians, Paeonians, Epirotes, Psiloi and cretan archers
I think you need to control your temper greek

HiveMindTerror
26-11-18, 06:48
You are wrong and your posts reek of bias and ignorance, Serbian.



rofl oh the irony

mihaitzateo
26-11-18, 13:41
Most likely from or related to germanic or german form of kunig, kneg, knecht. I don't think original slavic words start with "kn".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knyaz
Yes, it seems this word comes from protoGermanic.
Anyway, it would be really interesting to have Y DNA tested the males from Croatia, that are bearing the name Knezevic.
I have supposed that because is Croatia and Croats gave the kings and ruling class in Croatia, these people should be clearly Slavs.
Because I doubt that the Slavs that settled in Croatia had some kind of Germanic rulers, as it was the case with the East Slavs.

Tutkun Arnaut
26-11-18, 14:02
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knyaz
Yes, it seems this word comes from protoGermanic.
Anyway, it would be really interesting to have Y DNA tested the males from Croatia, that are bearing the name Knezevic.
I have supposed that because is Croatia and Croats gave the kings and ruling class in Croatia, these people should be clearly Slavs.
Because I doubt that the Slavs that settled in Croatia had some kind of Germanic rulers, as it was the case with the East Slavs.

That is a Slavic word. Slavs originated in Asia before moving to Europe. They were bordering East Asians for long time. According to linguists Knez is Slavic version of Kinez (Chinese). Since the Chinese were kept in high regard because of their advanced civilization, Slavs adopted this word as an egalitarian word.

Crya
26-11-18, 14:25
First we must start from beginning, for now historical data and genetics clearly show that to the Balkans only come Croatians, that is if we follow I2a subclades.
For R1a subclades I'm not sure yet because there is not much data, but subclades that Croats have exist in southern Poland ie. White Croatia.

Historical record of Croatians in Montenegro, Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyrogennetos) 10th century (Croats in Illyria and Roman Dalmatia), 12th century Chronicle of the Priest of Dioclea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicle_of_the_Priest_of_Dioclea), Muhamed el Idrisi, (Ceuta (https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta), 1099 (https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/1099) – Palermo (https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palermo), 1164 (https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/1164)) Dubrovnik last city in Croatia, Ivan Skilica (Ivan Skilices) (grč (https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C4%8Dki_jezik). Ιωάννης Σκυλίτζης) 11th century, 1526. Turkish Census of Bosnian Army, Croats in Nikšić (central Montenegro) and Sandžak north border of Montenegro, Derviş Mehmed Zillî (25 March 1611 – 1682), known as Evliya Çelebi mentione Croats in central Montenegro and on the coast of Montenegro, there is also Croatian ethnonyms in that area.

There is very little direct information about Serbs in Montenegro, but genetics has spoken, Serbs to Roman Dalmatia comes from Greece, nobody in Montenegro or Croatia with I2a and R1a types comes from Greece at least not in the 7th century.

I am amazed (i believe together with a lot of ppl here) about your persistence of repeating the same quotes over and over again... It is really amusing...

Wonomyro
26-11-18, 14:29
There's lot of fun (with etimologies) here recently. :laughing:

Fatherland
26-11-18, 16:19
There where no illyrians in Alexander's armies, he and his father fought long wars to keep the illyrians at bay
there where Macedonians, Thessalian, Agrianians, all Greeks states except Spartans, Thracians, Paeonians, Epirotes, Psiloi and cretan archers
I think you need to control your temper greek
When he entered Asia, the young king brought with him 12,000 phalangists - 9,000 pezhetairoi and 3,000 hypaspists. He also brought with him over 7,000 Greek infantry, most of which would be used to maintain conquered lands as garrison troops. While the army that crossed the Hellespont in 334 BCE was mostly Macedonian, there were others from all over Greece: Agrianians, Triballians, Paeonians, and Illyrians. Since Alexander was also the head of the Legion of Corinth, a number of Greek states provided additional infantry, cavalry and warships.


After 7 years of t-rolling, with 5000 posts, you are still misinformed and full of agendas.

Lenab
26-11-18, 17:31
While at the same time. Illyrian haplogroups R1b-L23, J2b2-L283 and EV13 can be found in both Italy and Romania.
E3b is more Neolithic than Megalithic Illyrian E3b would be found in the more Alpine Mediterranean of the Balkans like South Albania all parts of Greece Crete South Italy and Cyprus E3b peaks in Albania and Montenegro.

Lenab
26-11-18, 17:32
When he entered Asia, the young king brought with him 12,000 phalangists - 9,000 pezhetairoi and 3,000 hypaspists. He also brought with him over 7,000 Greek infantry, most of which would be used to maintain conquered lands as garrison troops. While the army that crossed the Hellespont in 334 BCE was mostly Macedonian, there were others from all over Greece: Agrianians, Triballians, Paeonians, and Illyrians. Since Alexander was also the head of the Legion of Corinth, a number of Greek states provided additional infantry, cavalry and warships.


After 7 years of t-rolling, with 5000 posts, you are still misinformed and full of agendas.
Illyrians are Roman not Greek Central Italians are originally Roman Illyrian Roman Elite was Thracian not just Illyrian.

Lenab
26-11-18, 17:33
Sile is Bachus? What happened to Bachus I miss him :(

mihaitzateo
26-11-18, 17:47
That is a Slavic word. Slavs originated in Asia before moving to Europe. They were bordering East Asians for long time. According to linguists Knez is Slavic version of Kinez (Chinese). Since the Chinese were kept in high regard because of their advanced civilization, Slavs adopted this word as an egalitarian word.
I doubt that the word Knyaz is related to Chinesse people.
In Romanian language, Chineaz meant ruler.
Chinez, for Chinesse people, only appeared later in Romanian language.
In Romanian it seems that the word Kineaz is clearly from Knyaz.
As for IE people coming from central Asia, that is well known.
R1B is well known to have come from Central Asia steppes. As for R1A, I have not researched from where it came to Europe.
Whatever, would be also really interesting to see genetic testing of Horvat family name in Croatia, Slovakia and Hungary.

Fatherland
26-11-18, 17:48
Illyrians are Roman not Greek Central Italians are originally Roman Illyrian Roman Elite was Thracian not just Illyrian.
Albanians are the closest peoples of the Balkan peninsula to the Tuscans/Central Italians genetically. We plot very closely to Tuscans.

Fatherland
26-11-18, 17:53
I doubt that the word Knyaz is related to Chinesse people.
In Romanian language, Chineaz meant ruler.
Chinez, for Chinesse people, only appeared later in Romanian language.
In Romanian it seems that the word Kineaz is clearly from Knyaz.
As for IE people coming from central Asia, that is well known.
R1B is well known to have come from Central Asia steppes. As for R1A, I have not researched from where it came to Europe.
Whatever, would be also really interesting to see genetic testing of Horvat family name in Croatia, Slovakia and Hungary.
R1b was already in Europe-Balkans 8000BC. R1a was in North-Eastern Europe.

Albanians, Greeks, Romanians and Bulgarians share mostly the same branches of Balkan R1b, same goes for EV13 and J2b2 among them.


Close to a 100 million Slavs under I2a1b-CTS10228 share a TMRCA of only like 2000 years, remember that. The Slavic origin of this haplogroup has gained more ground than ever since its direct ancestral clade was found in remains of medieval Poland.

Lenab
26-11-18, 18:02
Albanians are the closest peoples of the Balkan peninsula to the Tuscans/Central Italians genetically. We plot very closely to Tuscans.
No Albanians from Illyrian origin plot next to Greeks from Macedonia not Italians who are Illyrian.

Fatherland
26-11-18, 18:04
No Albanians from Illyrian origin plot next to Greeks from Macedonia not Italians who are Illyrian.
Albanians are between Tuscans & mainland Greeks.

Albanians generally shift north-west genetically of Greeks, and slightly east of Tuscans. That's all.

Lenab
26-11-18, 18:08
Albanians are between Tuscans & mainland Greeks.
According to GED match not that I trust GED match but it's better than 90 percent of the other stuff out there Albanians who are Gheg aka ''Illyrian'' are placed right next to Greeks from Macedonia Thessaloniki this is not my opinion but sample matches from GED from those who present themselves as ''North Albanians''

Lenab
26-11-18, 18:10
The Tuscan input that some might have is probably just some kind of Roman rule admixture over the Balkans and certainly does not reflect the gene pool of the average North Albanian who plots very much in the Balkans like North Greeks do very nicely.

Fatherland
26-11-18, 18:12
According to GED match not that I trust GED match but it's better than 90 percent of the other stuff out there Albanians who are Gheg aka ''Illyrian'' are placed right next to Greeks from Macedonia Thessaloniki this is not my opinion but sample matches from GED from those who present themselves as ''North Albanians''
Ghegs from various regions:
https://i.imgur.com/Nbq858O.png

Fatherland
26-11-18, 18:24
^Put tested Tuscans in that map and you'll even see the eastern-shifted Tuscans going toward Albanian direction.

Lenab
26-11-18, 18:24
Yes so you plot next to Balkan Slavs Romanian and Bulgarian and one guy somewhat overlaps with Macedonian Greeks none plot near Tuscans because you are from the Balkans living in the state which* is called Illyria doesn't make you genetically Illyrian because if that were the case every North Albanian would plot on Tuscany which none of you actually do.

Lenab
26-11-18, 18:25
If you are near Bulgarians Romanians North Greeks etc that actually makes you Macedonians not Illyrians that is Former Yugoslavic Republic of Macedon.

Fatherland
26-11-18, 18:25
Yes so you plot next to Balkan Slavs Romanian and Bulgarian and one guy somewhat overlaps with Macedonian Greeks none plot near Tuscans because you are from the Balkans living in the state with is called Illyria doesn't make you genetically Illyrian because if that were the case every North Albanian would plot on Tuscany which none of you actually do.
Bulgarians and Macedonian Slavs are the most Balkan native Slavic-speaking folks, which is why you see them plot so closely to Albanians.

Regardless of what you say, Albanians are situated in the Balkans and still plot the closest to Tuscans. We're just slightly east of Tuscans since we received more Steppe admix in the Bronze Age than did Central Italy.



If you are near Bulgarians Romanians North Greeks etc that actually makes you Macedonians not Illyrians that is Former Yugoslavic Republic of Macedon.
We're nearest the Tuscans out of all folks of the Balkan peninsula, it is relevant.

Lenab
26-11-18, 18:30
Bulgarians and Macedonians are the most Balkan native Slavic-speaking folks, which is why you see them plot so closely to Albanians.

Regardless of what you say, Albanians are situated in the Balkans and still plot the closest to Tuscans. We're just slightly east of Tuscans since we received more Steppe admix in the Bronze Age than did Central Italy.


I plot with Italians from Abruzzo Greeks from Macedonia Tuscans and Balkan Slavs Romanian Bulgarian and Serbians ( I assume they mean South Serbs and Montenegrin ) my Mother is close to Greek Cypriots and pre historic PIE Levantine people like Hittites. I cannot tell if it's the Balkan Slavic mix that I have or my North European Y dna from my Father that's shifting me close to Tuscans. Regardless I am very Alpine Mediterranean round faced. Ghegs tend to look like Romans actually Serbians who claim to be Thracian tend to be very Dinaric

Fatherland
26-11-18, 18:31
I plot with Italians from Abruzzo Greeks from Macedonia Tuscans and Balkan Slavs Romanian Bulgarian and Serbians ( I assume they mean South Serbs and Montenegrin ) my Mother is close to Greek Cypriots and pre historic PIE Levantine people like Hittites. I cannot tell if it's the Balkan Slavic mix that I have or my North European Y dna from my Father that's shifting me close to Tuscans. Regardless I am very Alpine Mediterranean round faced. Ghegs tend to look like Romans actually Serbians who claim to be Thracian tend to be very Dinaric
Serbians are not much Dinaric, even the Montenegrins are not that Dinaric, but Borreby-influenced.

Roughly correct map, except Montenegro has a Borreby element and a lot of Montenegrin tribes are Slavicized Albanians in origin:

http://i.imgur.com/9JN7qkN.png


The purest anthropological Dinarics are to be found in Ghegnia. Coon noted this.

Tosks are predominantly Dinaro-Alpines.

Lenab
26-11-18, 18:33
Doesn't matter where people plot racially it matters how people look both Ghegs and Serb Thracians are considered Balkan I think both are considered South East European and both have a ( Dinaric phenotype ) the overwhelming majority of Serbs Albanians and Croats are Dinaric Megalithic from a smaller degree they are perhaps Alpine East Mediterranean Neolithic and just normal Alpine Slavic.

However you can appear Roman because you have a dinaric phenotype!

Lenab
26-11-18, 18:37
Serbians are not much Dinaric, even the Montenegrins are not that Dinaric, but Borreby-influenced.

Roughly correct map, except Montenegro has a Borreby element:

http://i.imgur.com/9JN7qkN.png


The purest anthropological Dinarics are to be found in Ghegnia. Coon noted this.

Tosks are predominantly Dinaro-Alpines.

Every Gheg is Dinaric some Serbs also from Kosovo can be Dinaric Montenegro are tallest in Europe same as Dutch. Dinarics are usually tall because it's a Megalithic IE strain.

Lenab
26-11-18, 18:38
Also, in Mountain regions from the Balkans they are tall

Fatherland
26-11-18, 18:39
Doesn't matter where people plot racially it matters how people look both Ghegs and Serb Thracians are considered Balkan I think both are considered South East European and both have a ( Dinaric phenotype ) the overwhelming majority of Serbs Albanians and Croats are Dinaric Megalithic from a smaller degree they are perhaps Alpine East Mediterranean Neolithic and just normal Alpine Slavic.

However you can appear Roman because you have a dinaric phenotype!
Croatian males from Dalmatia were 165cm back in 1880s.. Lifestyle and nutrition can change the height through few generations dramatically, the same applied to myself, since I am 198cm:

https://i.imgur.com/qsTRlRo.png

Lenab
26-11-18, 18:44
Croatian males from Dalmatia were 165cm back in 1880s.. Lifestyle and nutrition can change the height through few generations dramatically, the same applied to myself, since I am 198cm:

https://i.imgur.com/qsTRlRo.png
There must be some kind of thread on this why different European sub races are tall or short, reasons why and is it anything to do with climate etc. All Dinaric men I have spoken to have been at least 185 for example trust me I don't like shortie men as I am almost 5'10 myself :D

Fatherland
26-11-18, 18:45
There must be some kind of thread on this why different European sub races are tall or short, reasons why and is it anything to do with climate etc. All Dinaric men I have spoken to have been at least 185 for example trust me I don't like shortie men as I am almost 5'10 myself :D
My diet when growing up consisted a lot of meat and dairy. Less sugars.

Lenab
26-11-18, 18:53
My diet when growing up consisted a lot of meat and dairy. Less sugars.

Then this is back to the Hunter Gatherer ways as I say Megalithic were very much so :D

Fatherland
26-11-18, 21:56
Then this is back to the Hunter Gatherer ways as I say Megalithic were very much so :D
Kekekekekek

mihaitzateo
27-11-18, 10:57
Ghegs from various regions:
https://i.imgur.com/Nbq858O.png

How much Western admixture are Gheghs scoring?
I know average Romanian score about 19% Western admixture and Serbians were scoring lower than Romanians.
So this graph you found a more Western Shifted Serb.
I know that are ex-Yugos that are scoring even 30% Western admixture.
If your graph contains such a Yugo, than Gheghs should score something like 35% Western admixture.
Now, it depends if we are considering Greeks admixture Western or Eastern.
I would consider Greeks admixture Western and in this case, Albanians are actually Western Europeans, as Greeks.

Wonomyro
27-11-18, 11:57
How much Western admixture are Gheghs scoring? I know average Romanian score about 19% Western admixture and Serbians were scoring lower than Romanians. So this graph you found a more Western Shifted Serb. I know that are ex-Yugos that are scoring even 30% Western admixture. If your graph contains such a Yugo, than Gheghs should score something like 35% Western admixture. Now, it depends if we are considering Greeks admixture Western or Eastern. I would consider Greeks admixture Western and in this case, Albanians are actually Western Europeans, as Greeks. It is probably due to a higher number of “western” Serbs in the overall Serbian sample.

Dibran
27-11-18, 17:16
rofl oh the irony

The irony is laughing when evidence is stacked against you slapping you in the face. Its not enough that speaking on a flimsy basis hasn't worked for the lot of Serbs and their anti-Albanian supporters, you have to even ignore the scientific and archaeological evidence which diminishes any argument you may muster. This clown Sile has been exposed and made a fool of numerous times by those more suited for these discussions than himself. Proto-Illyrian remains all bore J2b-L283, R1b, and V13. What is so hard to realize that you would ignore such actual evidence denying it to cling to the hopes of I2b-CTS10228 being Illyrian? Are you that disgusted with your roots?

Besides, Haplogroups amount to roughly one percent of the entire genome. You still have the other 99 percent to deal with, including the ethno-linguistic affiliation to which you ascribe.

You're Slavic. and at the end of the day, even a J2b/R1b/V13 Serb is still a Serb. Your language and culture dictated your ethnic affiliations. If we're going purely on the science of haplogroups, most Albanian trace their common ancestors to Illyrians. The science has shown that. Whatever I2 that may have existed among them, is most certainly not the modern very young variety found in Slavs. Even if for pure argument Illyrians carried CTS10228, the branches to which Slavs belong, evolved and expanded with the Slavic migration. you would need to belong to a basal clade predating those expansions to even hypothesize about an alternate root. Even then, the only candidate outside of the Slavs is Dacians that escaped beyond the Danube. Not the Illyrians.

Dibran
27-11-18, 17:30
Yes so you plot next to Balkan Slavs Romanian and Bulgarian and one guy somewhat overlaps with Macedonian Greeks none plot near Tuscans because you are from the Balkans living in the state which* is called Illyria doesn't make you genetically Illyrian because if that were the case every North Albanian would plot on Tuscany which none of you actually do.

Gedmatch is not more reliable than scientifically published papers, which all illustrate the same point...majority of Albanians plot between Tuscans and Mainland Greeks, generally eastern shifted Tuscans.

Dibran
27-11-18, 17:43
My diet when growing up consisted a lot of meat and dairy. Less sugars.

Mine too. but I wasn't active as much so I stunted my growth a bit lol. I was supposed to be 6' on average. They actually found being too physically active also adversely affected the growth cycle. Which is why hard working farmers from central and southern Albanians down were shorter on average compared to those in the mountains who worked less and were better fed from raiding lowlands. I gotta find the paper. It was quite interesting. My grand uncle was tall, like 6'3. My grandfather was my height 5'8. He also worked hard labor since 10 and was less well fed than those provided for(his brother included). Crazy how genetics works sometimes.
'

Fatherland
27-11-18, 17:48
How much Western admixture are Gheghs scoring?
I know average Romanian score about 19% Western admixture and Serbians were scoring lower than Romanians.
So this graph you found a more Western Shifted Serb.
I know that are ex-Yugos that are scoring even 30% Western admixture.
If your graph contains such a Yugo, than Gheghs should score something like 35% Western admixture.
Now, it depends if we are considering Greeks admixture Western or Eastern.
I would consider Greeks admixture Western and in this case, Albanians are actually Western Europeans, as Greeks.
Serbs in this graph are rather close to Albanians mostly due to Montenegrins in the Serb project pulling them there.

Without Montenegrin samples, Serbs would plot nearer Croatians and Bosnians. And as the other user said, there are alot of Serbians from the western Serbia in the project and not many from the eastern.

Gheg Albanians in the project are allover from North Albania, Central Albania, FYROM, Kosovo.

Sile
27-11-18, 17:51
Albanians are the closest peoples of the Balkan peninsula to the Tuscans/Central Italians genetically. We plot very closely to Tuscans.

I suggest you read up on the corinthian greeks , who discovered, created all the coastal towns in modern south montengro and all of albania..........begin at 750BC
basically the south adriatic sea was corinthian greek seas, they colonised the bulk of this area.

as for your tuscan/central italian union.......it most likely is via the corinthians and their link between albania and central italy, starting from ancona and moving south

mihaitzateo
27-11-18, 17:58
@Dibran:
I think Albanians actually are Thracians-Celtic remnants.
With Thracians being a group of related ehtnicities, as for example is the Slavic group of ethnicities.
Now, is true that both Illyrians and Dacians were considered part of the Thracians, but Albanians seems to be descendants of some warrior Thracian tribes, that mixed to the some warrior Celts tribes.
Albanians do have a tradition of fighting. I do not know if Illyrians were a warrior population.
In Romanian countries, boyars were hiring Albanians as fighters "Arnautzi".
I was curios who from the Albanians is more warrior-like population, Gheghs or Tosks?
As a curious thing, Aromanians from Albania are having like 36% R1B.
No one did a more in depth testing of these branches, to see what kind of R1B these Aromanians have.
I think that Aromanians and Albanians from Kosovo, from the populations located into Eastern Europe are having highest R1B.
Albanians from Kosovo have like 21% R1B.
There are also the Armenians, that have more R1B (about 28%) but all other Europeans located in the East of Europe, including Finns, score few or very few R1B.
Also Malta got more R1B, over 20%.
As a curios thing, even Swedes are under 20% R1B (about 13% R1B, for Swedes).

LABERIA
27-11-18, 18:11
I suggest you read up on the corinthian greeks , who discovered, created all the coastal towns in modern south montengro and all of albania..........begin at 750BC
basically the south adriatic sea was corinthian greek seas, they colonised the bulk of this area.
as for your tuscan/central italian union.......it most likely is via the corinthians and their link between albania and central italy, starting from ancona and moving south
But if they controlled everything, why did they asked for the help of the Romans against Illyrians? Why Greeks build even walls to stop the Illyrian tribes of Epir flooding Thessaly?

Milan.M
27-11-18, 18:15
Illyrians proper of Pliny are just the red area,the rest are just called so.
Even Italy it initially referred to the tip of the Italian peninsula, now called Calabria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabria); during the Roman Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire), it was extended to refer to the whole Italian geographical region (including the islands of Sicily (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily), Sardinia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinia) and Corsica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsica)).
So no confusion Illyria is geographical region we even have Illyria Graeca.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Illyrians_%28English%29.svg/1600px-Illyrians_%28English%29.svg.png

Fatherland
27-11-18, 18:27
As a curious thing, Aromanians from Albania are having like 36% R1B.
No one did a more in depth testing of these branches, to see what kind of R1B these Aromanians have.
I think that Aromanians and Albanians from Kosovo, from the populations located into Eastern Europe are having highest R1B.

I agree with you, interesting points.

The only problem is that there are so few Aromanians tested, approximately 30-40 Aromanians in every region.
If there was 500-1000 tested we would see more stable percentages.

I mean there are regions of Aromanians scoring 46% J2b2 iirc, still only 30-40 people tested.

What I gathered so far is that Aromanians are mainly of the R1b Balkan clades, commonly found in Albanians, Romanians, Bulgarians and Greeks.

They also have a sizable percentage of Italic R1b, which makes me believe a part of the Aromanian population descent from Roman colonists that came to Albania after they had defeated the Illyrians(and Epiroteans).

Fatherland
27-11-18, 18:35
R1b(all various clades) in the Balkans is mostly elevated in non-Slavic speakers. Same goes for J2b2 & J2a1.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b-borders.png

Wonomyro
27-11-18, 20:42
Serbs in this graph are rather close to Albanians mostly due to Montenegrins in the Serb project pulling them there. Without Montenegrin samples, Serbs would plot nearer Croatians and Bosnians.

And as the other user said, there are alot of Serbians from the western Serbia in the project and not many from the eastern.

In this study, Montenegrins, Serbs from Serbia, and Serbs from Bosnia (“western Serbs”) are presented in different colours.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g003 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g003)

The samples were taken here:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=medium&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g001

Sile
28-11-18, 18:42
Illyrians proper of Pliny are just the red area,the rest are just called so.
Even Italy it initially referred to the tip of the Italian peninsula, now called Calabria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabria); during the Roman Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire), it was extended to refer to the whole Italian geographical region (including the islands of Sicily (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily), Sardinia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinia) and Corsica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsica)).
So no confusion Illyria is geographical region we even have Illyria Graeca.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Illyrians_%28English%29.svg/1600px-Illyrians_%28English%29.svg.png
the map is an indication of what it was when Pliny was alive, it does not reflect the full lands of the illyrians as per their link/mix with celts in austria and slovenia as per halstatt culture..
.
proper illyrians are basically what was described by byzantine and venetian scholars in later articles as the rugusans ,( republic of ragusa ) or South Dalmatian illyrians....who , if this map is correct, must have lost coastal south Montenegro by 1000AD.............venetian archives state Montenegro was inhabited by, northern coast where dalmatians, south coast where albanians and the inland was only croats and serbs, bosnians never entered Montenegro.
Bosnians came from one small illyrian tribe called the Poseni , which over time the P became a B

Lenab
28-11-18, 19:08
Gedmatch is not more reliable than scientifically published papers, which all illustrate the same point...majority of Albanians plot between Tuscans and Mainland Greeks, generally eastern shifted Tuscans.
I didn't say it's less accurate than public places but other autosomal sites who link ethnicity to geographical plots which is nonsense.

In the case of Ancestry.com 23&me and Familydna My Heritage etc their plots vary dramatically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8lMfGqSrwg&t=314s

And which GED match I only trust it's literal ethnicity test the K36 result? Which gives you an actual ethnicity breakdown not ''where do I plot in the world according to my genetic make up'' breakdown.

You are close to Macedonian Greeks and Balkan Slavs.

Lenab
28-11-18, 19:10
I suggest you read up on the corinthian greeks , who discovered, created all the coastal towns in modern south montengro and all of albania..........begin at 750BC
basically the south adriatic sea was corinthian greek seas, they colonised the bulk of this area.

as for your tuscan/central italian union.......it most likely is via the corinthians and their link between albania and central italy, starting from ancona and moving south

Thank you very interesting

Lenab
28-11-18, 19:12
Illyrians Romance Slavs Romans mixed with Slavic people from Balkans

Thracians Slavic Romance people mainly Balkan Slav with a hint of Roman

Wonomyro
28-11-18, 19:13
the map is an indication of what it was when Pliny was alive, it does not reflect the full lands of the illyrians as per their link/mix with celts in austria and slovenia as per halstatt culture.. . proper illyrians are basically what was described by byzantine and venetian scholars in later articles as the rugusans ,( republic of ragusa ) or South Dalmatian illyrians....who , if this map is correct, must have lost coastal south Montenegro by 1000AD.............venetian archives state Montenegro was inhabited by, northern coast where dalmatians, south coast where albanians and the inland was only croats and serbs, bosnians never entered Montenegro. Bosnians came from one small illyrian tribe called the Poseni , which over time the P became a B

There was lot of misunderstanding about the meaning of the term Dalmatian (in its “ethnic” rather then regional sense) in Venetian sources. You’ve probably heard of this famous Venetian Croat:


Fausto Veranzio (Latin: Faustus Verantius; Croatian: Faust Vrančić; Hungarian and Vernacular Latin: Verancsics Faustus)[1][2] (circa 1551 – January 17, 1617)[3] was a Croatian[4][5][6] polymath and bishop from Šibenik, then part of the Venetian Republic and today part of Croatia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fausto_Veranzio


Veranzio was the author of a five-language dictionary,[23] Dictionarium quinque nobilissimarum Europæ linguarum, Latinæ, Italicæ, Germanicæ, Dalmatiæ, & Vngaricæ,[24] published in Venice in 1595, with 5,000 entries for each language: Latin, Italian, German, the Dalmatian vernacular (in particular, the chakavian dialect of Croatian) and Hungarian. These he called the "five noblest European languages" ("quinque nobilissimarum Europæ linguarum").[25]

In Venetian sources, Dalmatian (as well as Illyrian) was, most of the time, a synonym for ethnic Croatian.

Lenab
28-11-18, 20:19
There was lot of misunderstanding about the meaning of the term Dalmatian (in its “ethnic” rather then regional sense) in Venetian sources. You’ve probably heard of this famous Venetian Croat:
Croatians now inhabit that part which is mapped out as Dalmatia if that's what you mean.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fausto_Veranzio



In Venetian sources, Dalmatian (as well as Illyrian) was, most of the time, a synonym for ethnic Croatian.
Montenegrin are ethnically Southern Serb in general Croatians are closer to North Serbs. But in general out of all the Europeans Croats and Serbs are the most close racially and genetically.

Wonomyro
28-11-18, 20:29
Montenegrin are ethnically Southern Serb in general Croatians are closer to North Serbs. But in general out of all the Europeans Croats and Serbs are the most close racially and genetically.

Montenegrins are ehnically just what their name say - Montenegrins.

Croats and Serbs are not "the most close racially and genetically out of all the Europeans ". There is no data that indicate what you said.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g00
(https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g003)
Btw. there is no such a thing as Norh Serbs. There did you get that from?

Lenab
28-11-18, 20:36
Montenegrins are ehnically just what their name say - Montenegrins.

Croats and Serbs are not "the most close racially and genetically out of all the Europeans ". There is no data that indicate what you said.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g003

GED match places you next to each other

Lenab
28-11-18, 20:37
Montenegrin declare themselves Serbs I know enough Serbs and Montenegrin to know that

Wonomyro
28-11-18, 20:42
GED match places you next to each other

Every PCA I've seen so far places Croats next to Hungarians. Serbs are always shifted towards Bulgarians and Albanians.

Lenab
28-11-18, 20:44
Every PCA I've seen so far places Croats next to Hungarians. Serbs are always shifted towards Bulgarians and Albanians.

Albanians from Kosovo match with Serbs Albanians from Italy match with South Italians from Abruzzo and Calabria Albanians from North Greece match with Macedonians and no look again at the map the only thing that separates you is Moldovan not Hungarian, Hungarian are close to Austrian Austrian Hungarian empire because the plot is closer doesn't mean you plot with them Croatians will plot closer to Serbs than Hungarians are Austrians you're even geographically closer to Serbia than Hungary even Hungary is probably closer to Serbia than Croatia Croatia even borders the Roman part of Italy.

https://i.imgur.com/Nbq858O.png

Wonomyro
28-11-18, 20:47
Montenegrin declare themselves Serbs I know enough Serbs and Montenegrin to know that

No.

Only a part of Montenegrins started to declare themselves as Serbs after 1991. Montenegro is under a jurisdiction of Serb Orthodox Church which has been actively promoting Serb identity among its belevers. The division is mainly political and ideological rather then ethnical.

Lenab
28-11-18, 20:51
No.

Only a part of Montenegrins started to declare themselves as Serbs after 1991. Montenegro is under s jurisdiction of Serb Orthodox Church which has been actively promoting Serb identity. The division is mainly political and ideological rather then ethnical.

#That part of them is related to South Serbs everyone declared themselves independent after the breakup of Yugoslavia the Balkan wars was to dismantle Serbian ownership and control of that whole region. It wasn't about independent states or the poor Bosnian women being raped which no one in the West gave a ....about

It was about Western control stepping in and not letting a Orthodox nations control things. Much like the whole let's bomb Iran because of human right violations but we will continue to fund IS militants and have tea parties with the Saudis.

Orthodox and Shia Muslim Independence by a mainly Sunni Muslim and Catholic Islamic and Christian world is frowned upon

Wonomyro
28-11-18, 20:54
Albanians from Kosovo match with Serbs Albanians from Italy match with South Italians from Abruzzo and Calabria Albanians from North Greece match with Macedonians and no look again at the map the only thing that separates you is Moldovan not Hungarian, Hungarian are close to Austrian Austrian Hungarian empire because the plot is closer doesn't mean you plot with them Croatians will plot closer to Serbs than Hungarians are Austrians you're even geographically closer to Serbia than Hungary even Hungary is probably closer to Serbia than Croatia Croatia even borders the Roman part of Italy.

https://i.imgur.com/Nbq858O.png

I must admit that I haven’t understood what you wrote above.


The image that you linked confirms what I previously stated.

Wonomyro
28-11-18, 20:59
deleted....

Lenab
28-11-18, 21:00
I must admit that I haven’t understood what you wrote above.


The image that you linked confirms what I previously stated.

There are many different types of Albanians. Albanians are mixed with what countries they settled in Albanians don't plot with Albanians. Albanians in Italy plot with Italians from the South Italy Calabria Sicily Abruzzo Puglia etc , not Romans. Albanians who live in Greece plot in Macedonia and Epirus racially. Albanians who live in Kosovo plot next to Serbs.

Croatians do not plot with Hungarians neither are they closer to Hungarians, you are closer to North Serbs therefore you are simply more Northern than general Serbs that plotting in a general Serb plot.

Croatians generally plot next to North Serbs more so than Hungarians. That map places you simply above ''general'' Serbian matches therefore closer to Hungary who, according to GED match , are more North European than Serbs of any descent including North Serbs and all Croats. That however does not make you closer to Hungarians than Serbs but just makes you more North European than general Serbs which is why I said you are close to North Serbs generally.

North Italians are less from the Balkans than South Italians therefore also close to Franks, Austrians Longobards etc than their Greco counterparts. But as a collective North Italians are still Italians and will also plot with South Italians and have common ground with them.

You are closer to North Serbs than any other European ethnic people ​North Serbs not general Serbs.

Wonomyro
28-11-18, 21:08
There are many different types of Albanians. Albanians are mixed with what countries they settled in Albanians don't plot with Albanians. Albanians in Italy plot with Italians from the South Italy Calabria Sicily Abruzzo Puglia etc , not Romans. Albanians who live in Greece plot in Macedonia and Epirus racially. Albanians who live in Kosovo plot next to Serbs.

Croatians do not plot with Hungarians neither are they closer to Hungarians, you are closer to North Serbs therefore you are simply more Northern than general Serbs that plotting in a general Serb plot.

Croatians generally plot next to North Serbs more so than Hungarians. That map places you simply above ''general'' Serbian matches therefore closer to Hungary who, according to GED match are more North European than both Serbs of any descent including North Serbs and all Croats. That however does not make you closer to Hungarians than Serbs but just makes you more North European than general Serbs which is why I said you are close to North Serbs generally.

North Italians are less from the Balkans than South Italians therefore also close to Franks Austrians Longobards etc than their Greco counterparts. But as a collective North Italians are still Italians and will also plot with South Italians and have common ground with them.

You are closer to North Serbs than any other European ethnic people ​North Serbs not general Serbs.

Ther is no such a thing as "North Serbs"? I've never heard about that.

Where did you get the idea that Croats do not plot with Hungarians? I've showed you a PCA plot. Where is the problem?

Lenab
28-11-18, 21:10
North Serbs and South Serbs Serbians who are generally Northern regions and Serbs who are generally Southern yes they differ not all Serbs are Dinaric some Serbs are Alpine and Pontid especially in the Southern regions and Montenegrin region, if Bachus was here he would tell you

Some Serbians can be Alpine Mediterranean also but rarely than Dinaric

Lenab
28-11-18, 21:14
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Serbia

I am told by my friend North Serbia is Vojvodina region and Croatians with Serb ancestors came from there and that his Grandfather was Serbian from this region before they came to Croatia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Serbia

Wonomyro
28-11-18, 21:14
North Serbs and South Serbs Serbians who are generally Northern regions and Serbs who are generally Southern yes they differ not all Serbs are Dinaric some Serbs are Alpine and Pontid especially in the Southern regions and Montenegrin region, if Bachus was here he would tell you

Some Serbians can be Alpine Mediterranean also but rarely than Dinaric

You are obviously not familiar with the subject. I'm afraid that Bachus either misinformed you or you haven't understand properly what he said. Or, most likely, both of that.

Lenab
28-11-18, 21:15
Is South Serbia apart of the Serbian enclave in Vardar region in Macedonia I would like a Serbian user to answer that question as that would explain a lot and help with this conversation. People in that region are very Pontid therefore will naturally be more Southern.

Lenab
28-11-18, 21:18
You are obviously not familiar with the subject. I'm afraid that Bachus either misinformed you or you haven't understand properly what he said. Or, most likely, both of that.
I have answered I have a Croatian friend His Serbian ancestors are from Vojvodina aka a region in North Serbia before they travelled to Croatia is ancestors came from there.

So actually Croats said it themselves. What Bachus said in front of the two of us is yes, Croatians and Bosnians are similar to Serbs they are just brainwashed to Catholic and Islamic religions that's what he said there isn't a misunderstanding.

Wonomyro
28-11-18, 21:23
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Serbia

I am told by my friend North Serbia is Vojvodina region and Croatians with Serb ancestors came from there and that his Grandfather was Serbian from this region before they came to Croatia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Serbia

Vojvodina is something different. It is a northern part of present day Serbia, previously part of Hungary (Banat, Bačka) and Croatia (Syrmia). Serbs are majority there only recently. I've not seen summary autosomal data for Vojvodina Serbs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vojvodina

Fatherland
28-11-18, 21:25
#That part of them is related to South Serbs everyone declared themselves independent after the breakup of Yugoslavia the Balkan wars was to dismantle Serbian ownership and control of that whole region. It wasn't about independent states or the poor Bosnian women being raped which no one in the West gave a ....about

It was about Western control stepping in and not letting a Orthodox nations control things. Much like the whole let's bomb Iran because of human right violations but we will continue to fund IS militants and have tea parties with the Saudis.

Orthodox and Shia Muslim Independence by a mainly Sunni Muslim and Catholic Islamic and Christian world is frowned upon
Most of the chaos in the Balkans is due to the Putinoid propaganda alot of its inhabitants are buying. The west has little-to-none influence in the Balkans, unlike what conspiracy-theorists think.

Serbia has state-sponsored chauvinism.

Kosovar Albanians are not close at all to Serbs genetically. They are only close to Montenegrins with Albanian ancestors.
Albanians got nothing to do with Slavs. Our northern admix is of north-western type, not north-eastern.

Wonomyro
28-11-18, 21:31
Is South Serbia apart of the Serbian enclave in Vardar region in Macedonia I would like a Serbian user to answer that question as that would explain a lot and help with this conversation. People in that region are very Pontid therefore will naturally be more Southern.

I admit I've never heard of the "Serbian enclave in Vardar region in Macedonia". However, after the Balkan Wars in the beginning of 20th century Serbia annected that region and tried to asimilate local Orthodox Christian population. The attempt was not succesful. Serbs used to called these people "South Serbians". However the people call themselves mostly Macedonians, and sometimes in the past, Bulgarians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia

Fatherland
28-11-18, 21:39
I admit I've never heard of the "Serbian enclave in Vardar region in Macedonia". However, after the Balkan Wars in the beginning of 20th century Serbia annected that region and tried to asimilate local Orthodox Christian population. The attempt was not succesfull. Serbs used to called these people "South Serbians". However the people call themselves mostly Macedonians, and sometimes in the past, Bulgarians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia
Serbia claimed all the Orthodox inhabitants of various backgrounds of the Vardar region as Serbs.... That is people of Albanian, Vlach and Bulgarian background.

There is still an Albanian Orthodox community there that didn't become Slavicized https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Reka

Wonomyro
28-11-18, 21:43
Kosovar Albanians are not close at all to Serbs genetically. They are only close to Montenegrins with Albanian ancestors.
Albanians got nothing to do with Slavs. Our northern admix is of north-western type, not north-eastern.

Well that's not quite true as some samples fom Serbia proper mainly plot with Montenegrins.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g003

However, it is obvious that Albanians have very little or nothing to do with the original Slav genetics. What make present day Slavic Serbs close to Albanians is their (Serbian) rich Vlach (or possible Albanian) ancestry.

Fatherland
28-11-18, 21:48
Well that's not quite true as some samples fom Serbia proper mainly plot with Montenegrins.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090.g003

However, it is obvious that Albanians have very little or nothing to do with the original Slav genetics. What make present day Slavic Serbs close to Albanians is their (Serbian) rich Vlach (or possible Albanian) ancestry.
This study shows much in regard of South Slavs, but not for the Albanian part. All I see is "Kosovars" which doesn't show much info.

If any Serbian minus the Montenegrins plot close to Albanians, then he has Albanian ancestry in most of the cases.

Serbian chauvinists claimed Kosovar Albanians as Albanized Serbs, which is not true, as Kosovar Albanians have no Slavic admixture.

Wonomyro
28-11-18, 21:54
This study shows much in regard of South Slavs, but not for the Albanian part. All I see is "Kosovars" which doesn't show much info.

If any Serbian minus the Montenegrins plot close to Albanians, then he has Albanian ancestry in most of the cases.

It is very likely that most of Kosovars, if not all, in this study, are ethnic Albanians.


Serbian chauvinists claimed Kosovar Albanians as Albanized Serbs, which is not true, as Kosovar Albanians have no Slavic admixture.

Yes, they claim lot of nonsense as we witness it on a daily basis.

Fatherland
28-11-18, 21:54
Deretic theories have a strong hold on Serbian parents and their kids. When they grow up they want to destroy all the nations around them.

markod
28-11-18, 22:02
Most of the chaos in the Balkans is due to the Putinoid propaganda alot of its inhabitants are buying. The west has little-to-none influence in the Balkans, unlike what conspiracy-theorists think.

Serbia has state-sponsored chauvinism.

Kosovar Albanians are not close at all to Serbs genetically. They are only close to Montenegrins with Albanian ancestors.
Albanians got nothing to do with Slavs. Our northern admix is of north-western type, not north-eastern.

Generally, north-eastern & north-western components do not exist. They are relics of methodologies from before ancient DNA. One can only speak of northern European tendency which is most pronounced in the Finno-Ugrian groups of Russia & the Baltic region.

What differentiates North-Western Europeans & North-Eastern Europeans are the varying levels of WHG & Siberian components.

Lenab
28-11-18, 22:05
No it is Serbian territory it was owned by Austrian Hungarians during their rule of the Balkans that doesn't make North Serbs Hungarian

Lenab
28-11-18, 22:08
The last Albanian I knew from Kosovo had a match directly to Serbia from GED I saved his matches on my mobile phone so you saying it's propaganda along with the North Serb Croat thing is indeed propaganda, but not coming from me. I cannot reply to your quotes I can only type now, sorry.

Fatherland
28-11-18, 22:11
The last Albanian I knew from Kosovo had a match directly to Serbia from GED I saved his matches on my mobile phone so you saying it's propaganda along with the North Serb Croat thing is indeed propaganda, but not coming from me. I cannot reply to your quotes I can only type now, sorry.
That's normal, since Serbians are a mix from all their neighbors. Only Deretic fans like to claim that the whole world is Serbian.

Angela
28-11-18, 22:21
Generally, north-eastern & north-western components do not exist. They are relics of methodologies from before ancient DNA. One can only speak of northern European tendency which is most pronounced in the Finno-Ugrian groups of Russia & the Baltic region.

What differentiates North-Western Europeans & North-Eastern Europeans are the varying levels of WHG & Siberian components.

Indeed. (As exhibited in ydna lineages as well, yes?)

Thank you for introducing some science into this thread.

Lenab
28-11-18, 22:22
That's normal, since Serbians are a mix from all their neighbors. Only Deretic fans like to claim that the whole world is Serbian.

He was a Albanian with a Serbian match not a Serbian with a Albanian match such a thing wouldn't exist. I am not, I am claiming that Croatians are similar to whatever North Serbs are ( their words not mine ) and some Albanians from Kosovo are the same as Serbs as in I have seen them being matched with Serbs ( GED match opinion not mine ) and not mine. Also a enclave in Vardar Macedonian is ethnically Serbian and Montenegrin are ethnically Serbian ( their admission not my opinion ) none of what I have said is opinion actually and I am not Serbian I am Southern European Serbians are Balkan Slavs

hrvat22
28-11-18, 22:24
Montenegrin are ethnically Southern Serb in general Croatians are closer to North Serbs. But in general out of all the Europeans Croats and Serbs are the most close racially and genetically.

Half Montenegrins genetically originate in White Croatia, other half in Albania. Montenegrins have no genetic connection with original Serbs.

If you think opposite then genetically prove that. Serbs and Croats are genetic similar when most of them genetically come from the same place.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia

Serbs to Roman Dalmatia coming from Greece, no one has genetics which prove this migration in Roman Dalmatia (today's Croatia, Serbia, etc).

hrvat22
28-11-18, 22:32
I admit I've never heard of the "Serbian enclave in Vardar region in Macedonia". However, after the Balkan Wars in the beginning of 20th century Serbia annected that region and tried to asimilate local Orthodox Christian population. The attempt was not succesfull. Serbs used to called these people "South Serbians". However the people call themselves mostly Macedonians, and sometimes in the past, Bulgarians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia


The colonization of Kosovo and Macedonia between the two World Wars was the result of the socio-economic and political needs of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia / Yugoslavia with unprecedented national ambitions, as confirmed by the ethnic structure of the colonists.


According to official data of the Ministry of Agriculture, in the "southern regions" there were 17,607 families, ie 87,743 people, up to 1940, of which 89.7% were Serbs, 10% Croats and 0.3% Slovenians. According to the truth, 93,9% of Orthodox and 6,1% of Roman Catholic were among colonists.

https://pescanik.net/krah-kolonizacije-kosova-i-makedonije/

Wonomyro
28-11-18, 23:11
No it is Serbian territory it was owned by Austrian Hungarians during their rule of the Balkans that doesn't make North Serbs Hungarian

How could that be "Serbian" territory if it was "owned by Austrian Hungarians"?

Vojvodina has always been multiethnic territory. At least since it was taken from Ottomans, and before that time it was under Hungarian king since the early middle ages.


it was owned by Austrian Hungarians during their rule of the Balkans that doesn't make North Serbs Hungarian

It doesn't, of course.

Lenab
28-11-18, 23:22
How could that be "Serbian" territory if it was "owned by Austrian Hungarians"?

Vojvodina has always been multiethnic territory. At least since it was taken from Ottomans, and before that time it was under Hungarian king since the early middle ages.



It doesn't, of course.

Because they are North Serbs they aren't Hungarians who live in North Serbia they don't even identify with being Hungarian

Wonomyro
28-11-18, 23:23
He was a Albanian with a Serbian match not a Serbian with a Albanian match such a thing wouldn't exist. I am not, I am claiming that Croatians are similar to whatever North Serbs are ( their words not mine ) and some Albanians from Kosovo are the same as Serbs as in I have seen them being matched with Serbs ( GED match opinion not mine ) and not mine. Also a enclave in Vardar Macedonian is ethnically Serbian and Montenegrin are ethnically Serbian ( their admission not my opinion ) none of what I have said is opinion actually and I am not Serbian I am Southern European Serbians are Balkan Slavs

Why are you putting yourself into a position to transmit other people opinions? In your posts I recognize traces of Serbian expansionistic agenda, however poorly understood. So the result is pretty much chaotic.

Wonomyro
28-11-18, 23:24
Because they are North Serbs they aren't Hungarians who live in North Serbia they don't even identify with being Hungarian

But who said they are Hungarians?

Fatherland
28-11-18, 23:26
He was a Albanian with a Serbian match not a Serbian with a Albanian match such a thing wouldn't exist. I am not, I am claiming that Croatians are similar to whatever North Serbs are ( their words not mine ) and some Albanians from Kosovo are the same as Serbs as in I have seen them being matched with Serbs ( GED match opinion not mine ) and not mine. Also a enclave in Vardar Macedonian is ethnically Serbian and Montenegrin are ethnically Serbian ( their admission not my opinion ) none of what I have said is opinion actually and I am not Serbian I am Southern European Serbians are Balkan Slavs
Are you reading between the lines? What is it you don't get of my former sentence? The Serbs, that Albanians match with are Serbs with Albanian ancestry.

Lenab
28-11-18, 23:41
Half Montenegrins genetically originate in White Croatia, other half in Albania. Montenegrins have no genetic connection with original Serbs.

If you think opposite then genetically prove that. Serbs and Croats are genetic similar when most of them genetically come from the same place.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia

Serbs to Roman Dalmatia coming from Greece, no one has genetics which prove this migration in Roman Dalmatia (today's Croatia, Serbia, etc).


Montenegrin cluster with Serbs and identify as such I can give you their FaceBook pages if you don't believe me I know many people from Romanian Croatia Serbia Montenegro Macedonia etc I have never in my life came across a Montenegrin that said he wasn't Serb

Lenab
28-11-18, 23:42
Are you reading between the lines? What is it you don't get of my former sentence? The Serbs, that Albanians match with are Serbs with Albanian ancestry.

Are you reading between the lines? This guy was a ethnic Albanian who lives in Kosovo with Serbian genetics.

He was not a Serbian with Albanian ancestors

Lenab
28-11-18, 23:44
Why are you putting yourself into a position to transmit other people opinions? In your posts I recognize traces of Serbian expansionistic agenda, however poorly understood. So the result is pretty much chaotic.
I am much closer to mainland Italian and Greeks than Serbs.

I am even closer to Bulgarians than Serbs however yes, my Great Grandfather was a Serb from Vardar region. That would make me 1/8 genetically Serb which considering 100 percent of the genetics isn't very Serb.

Lenab
28-11-18, 23:47
But who said they are Hungarians?
You when you imply there are many different ethnicity in Vojvodina no most are Serbs even if they are Serbs because of resent Austro Hungarian take over therefore shift in genetics they still identify as being Serbs even the Croats related to them, still say they are Serbs.

There isn't such a thing as Hungarians in Serbia but Serbs with similar dna aka ''North Serbs'' those North Serbs converted to being Catholic then moved to ancient Dalmatia aka what is now known as Croatia that is why you plot more North than general Serbs and that is why you plot next to Hungarians rather than general Serbs. Which is what I have said, time and time and time again.

Fatherland
28-11-18, 23:49
Are you reading between the lines? This guy was a ethnic Albanian who lives in Kosovo with Serbian genetics.

He was not a Serbian with Albanian ancestors

Anecdotal hearsay's are always fun to hear without proofs.

99.99% of the cases you see the reverse, that is Serbians with Albanian ancestors.

Lenab
28-11-18, 23:50
Anecdotal hearsay's are always fun to hear without proofs.
GED match was his personal proof you don't believe me I can get my mobile phone and print out all his scores.

Fatherland
28-11-18, 23:51
Many Hungarians have been Serbianized in Vojvodina. Many Romanians have been Serbianized in Eastern Serbia, etc.

Many Saxons have also been Serbianized, I know Serbs who have atleast 1 German grandparent. Do you believe me or not?

Lenab
28-11-18, 23:55
Anecdotal hearsay's are always fun to hear without proofs.

99.99% of the cases you see the reverse, that is Serbians with Albanian ancestors.
Never seen it even once

markod
28-11-18, 23:56
Are you reading between the lines? This guy was a ethnic Albanian who lives in Kosovo with Serbian genetics.

He was not a Serbian with Albanian ancestors


This shouldn't be very surprising. Beyond the assimilation that naturally happen in border regions, Ottoman rule meant that ethnic identities were generally discouraged among Muslim populations. One still sees this confusion among the Muslim minorities of Serbia, Montenegro and Croatia (the latter of which has almost disappeared). With the renewed interest in national identities, Muslim Slavs often adopted the ethnic identity of neighbouring populations.

I have Muslim friends from Sandžak who if pressed will say that they are Bosniaks. Of course from a strictly historical and genetic standpoint this makes little sense :grin:

Fatherland
28-11-18, 23:56
Never seen it even once
The links posted by Wonomyro shows quite a few Serbs plotting towards Albanians.

Your posts clearly reek of chauvinism.

Serbia is not perfect, it's mixed, deal with it. You are mixed as you admitted, too.

Lenab
28-11-18, 23:57
Many Hungarians have been Serbianized in Vojvodina. Many Romanians have been Serbianized in Eastern Serbia, etc.

Many Saxons have also been Serbianized, I know Serbs who have atleast 1 German grandparent. Do you believe me or not?

But it doesn't matter they still identify with being North Serbs yes that's from the Sorbs and others

Fatherland
28-11-18, 23:58
But it doesn't matter they still identify with being North Serbs yes that's from the Sorbs and others
Nope. It's recent, from less than 100 years ago.

You are mixed yourself.

Wonomyro
29-11-18, 00:00
Generally, north-eastern & north-western components do not exist. They are relics of methodologies from before ancient DNA. One can only speak of northern European tendency which is most pronounced in the Finno-Ugrian groups of Russia & the Baltic region.

What differentiates North-Western Europeans & North-Eastern Europeans are the varying levels of WHG & Siberian components.

Components are always arbitrarily composed. You can take any set of genes and call it a component as long as it makes sense for what you plan to analyze. E. g. If you want to investigate proportions of Brits and Saxons in modern Englishmen, then the components like WHG and EEF would not be of much use.

LABERIA
29-11-18, 00:01
https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-the-balkans-produce-more-history-than-they-can-consume-winston-churchill-140-60-69.jpg

markod
29-11-18, 00:03
Nope. It's recent, from less than 100 years ago.

You are mixed yourself.

It's likely the other way around. The Pannonian plain would have been the primary region whence the Slavs infilitrated the Dinaric range. The region of Vojvodina and adjacent Slavonia were likely the very first landscapes settled by the ancestors of the Serbo-Croats, some of whom might have been assimilated into the Hungarian ethnos later on.

Fatherland
29-11-18, 00:03
https://pics.me.me/so-what-do-you-want-to-be-when-you-grow-10375759.png

Lenab
29-11-18, 00:03
The links posted by Wonomyro shows quite a few Serbs plotting towards Albanians.

Your posts clearly reek of chauvinism.

Serbia is not perfect, it's mixed, deal with it. You are mixed as you admitted, too.
I do not show chauvinism neither am I Serbian I have one Serbian ancestor a Great Grandfather, I also have English Armenian/Anatolian and Greek/Italian ancestors still with all that mix I am genetically European so are all my direct family members so I am not sure what you are getting at.

I have mainly Greek and English genetics again according to GED not my opinion

Albanians aren't even on the plotting map. Because you're mixed in with whatever population you settled in when you came to the Balkans during the middle ages naw, Serbians do not plot with Albanians rather, Albanians plot with Italians Greeks and Serbs.

Lenab
29-11-18, 00:06
It's likely the other way around. The Pannonian plain would have been the primary region whence the Slavs infilitrated the Dinaric range. The region of Vojvodina and adjacent Slavonia were likely the very first landscapes settled by the ancestors of the Serbo-Croats, some of whom might have been assimilated into the Hungarian ethnos later on.

Austria Hungarian expansion was much much much later. thousands of years later Thracians are like 7,000 years ago they certainly weren't ethnically Hungarian neither same as Illyrians

Lenab
29-11-18, 00:07
https://pics.me.me/so-what-do-you-want-to-be-when-you-grow-10375759.png

Maybe Autism idk

Lenab
29-11-18, 00:08
https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-the-balkans-produce-more-history-than-they-can-consume-winston-churchill-140-60-69.jpg

Not a fan of Zionism so not a fan of his thanks ;)

Fatherland
29-11-18, 00:10
I do not show chauvinism neither am I Serbian I have one Serbian ancestor a Great Grandfather, I also have English Armenian/Anatolian and Greek/Italian ancestors still with all that mix I am genetically European so are all my direct family members so I am not sure what you are getting at.

I have mainly Greek and English genetics again according to GED not my opinion

Albanians aren't even on the plotting map. Because you're mixed in with whatever population you settled in when you came to the Balkans during the middle ages naw, Serbians do not plot with Albanians rather, Albanians plot with Italians Greeks and Serbs.
Wrong. Albanians are there, the Kosovar Albanians.

Albanians have been in the Balkans longer than Serbs and are here to stay. We had always survived, regardless of opposition, regardless of crazy chauvinism.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXj6ECGU8AAiRGp.jpg

Lenab
29-11-18, 00:16
Wrong. Albanians are there, the Kosovar Albanians.

Albanians have been in the Balkans longer than Serbs and are here to stay. We had always survived, regardless of opposition, regardless of crazy chauvinism.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXj6ECGU8AAiRGp.jpg
That would be easy to believe if you had a singular plot on ged which you don't and if Serbians plotted with Albanians which they don't

Albanians plotting with Serbs would kind of indicate that Serbs were there before Albanians not vice versa. Albanian genetics is very universal it's not an attack either Albanians don't just cluster with Serbs, Croatians do, Albanians plot with Serbs, Italians, Greeks general Slavs fill in the gap here.

How can you say all Albanians are native to Kosovo yet, not all of the Albanian live in Kosovo but also Greece and South Italy while at the same time being all Illyrian a type of Roman tribe which doesn't even exist anymore as a entity but rather baseless generic genetics?

Wonomyro
29-11-18, 00:17
You when you imply there are many different ethnicity in Vojvodina no most are Serbs even if they are Serbs because of resent Austro Hungarian take over therefore shift in genetics they still identify as being Serbs even the Croats related to them, still say they are Serbs.

Absolutely not. You are totally lost. You mixed up everything.


There isn't such a thing as Hungarians in Serbia

Of course there is! There are loads of Hungarians in Vojvodina (now part of in Serbia):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vojvodina#/media/File:Vojvodina-Ethnic-2011.GIF


... but Serbs with similar dna aka ''North Serbs'' those North Serbs converted to being Catholic then moved to ancient Dalmatia aka what is now known as Croatia that is why you plot more North than general Serbs and that is why you plot next to Hungarians rather than general Serbs. Which is what I have said, time and time and time again.

That's hilarious! :laughing:

There are no “North Serbs”, just Serbs who live in Vojvodina and they descend from the Orthodox Christian migrants from Serbia proper during the Ottoman rule and after (They came with their Partriarch).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migrations_of_the_Serbs

These Serbs obviously couldn’t have moved to “ancient Dalmatia” in order to become Croats. :laughing:

markod
29-11-18, 00:18
That would be easy to believe if you had a singular plot on ged which you don't and if Serbians plotted with Albanians which they don't

Albanians plotting with Serbs would kind of indicate that Serbs were there before Albanians not vice versa. Albanian genetics is very universal it's not an attack either Albanians don't just cluster with Serbs Croatians do Albanians plot with Serbs Italians Greeks general Slavs fill in the gap here.

How can you say all Albanians are native to Kosovo yet, not all of the Albanian live in Kosovo but also Greece and South Italy while at the same time being all Illyrian a type of Roman tribe which doesn't even exist anymore as a entity but rather baseless generic genetics?

The toponymy in Southern Serbia and parts of Macedonia definitely looks very Albanian.

Fatherland
29-11-18, 00:21
That would be easy to believe if you had a singular plot on ged which you don't and if Serbians plotted with Albanians which they don't

Albanians plotting with Serbs would kind of indicate that Serbs were there before Albanians not vice versa. Albanian genetics is very universal it's not an attack either Albanians don't just cluster with Serbs Croatians do Albanians plot with Serbs Italians Greeks general Slavs fill in the gap here.

How can you say all Albanians are native to Kosovo yet, not all of the Albanian live in Kosovo but also Greece and South Italy while at the same time being all Illyrian a type of Roman tribe which doesn't even exist anymore as a entity but rather baseless generic genetics?

Many Serbs from Bosnia & Croatia came to Kosovo after the Yugoslav war, these people are not the same as the Albanian-admixed Serbs of Southern Serbia.

Nish was all Albanian-populated prior to the Serbian chauvinistic expansion a century ago.

Map by Romanian author, showing Albanian progenitors stretch from the Dinaric Alps to the Pannonian basin and Macedonia.

3rd-7th century map:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Vatra.jpg

JajarBingan
29-11-18, 00:21
I'm genuinely curious if this has been "decided" anywhere by credible researchers.

South Slavs have a different stock of haplogroups than Northern Slavs, and cluster together rather than with other European groups. Clearly we're our own family-branch.

Coincidentally the people with the highest portion of M423 also dwell in what the Romans and Greeks labelled Illyria. Although most people think the Illyrians simply vanished after their Latinization, some kept their ethnic identity for a long time (such as the Barracks Emperors, Belisarius, etc.). I know the Balkans were generally a war-zone for the late Roman Empire and barbarian tribes, but did the Illyrians really just vanish (again)? I mean, Albanians claim to be of that stock but have more in common with Greeks genetically than South Slavs, and Albania was generally a kind of borderline between Illyria proper and Greece (Epirus).

Historically it was said that many Roman cities on the Croatian coast remained free and independent of the "migrant Slavs" and Latin Dalmatian was spoken well into the 1800's (from what I recall). Haplogroup I2 spikes in Dalmatia and Bosnia, one packed with seemingly peaceful Illyrian towns, the other a mountainous escape for natives from invading foreigners.

I mean, from the mosaics of Roman-Illyrian Emperors and Generals in Byzantium, I can definitely see more of a resemblance to many Southern Slavs than I can when comparing typical Bosnians to typical Russians. At the same time there is definitely a Slavic (or whatever northern European tribe) mix in Balkanians for sure, but mainly were we simply Slavicized after the collapse of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires?

Croatians were historically referred to as Illyrians, Serbs were synonymous with Tribalians (Thracian tribe), and Bosnia is named after the Bosona river (an Illyrian word if I recall correctly). I mean people of haplogroup I are noted for being particularly tall, the Greeks and Romans both described Illyrians as particularly tall people.

Can they ever dig up Illyrian bones and sequence their haplogroups?


According to my Global 25 calculator, Balkans K4 (http://185.144.156.77:3000/custom_calculators.html), it's something like this:



Population
Thracian + Greek
Slavic


Greek
92%
6%


Albanian
87%
13%


Bulgarian
70%
30%


Macedonian
65%
35%


Romanian
65%
35%


Serbian
60%
40%


Montenegrin
60%
40%


Moldovan
50%
50%


Bosnian
45%
55%


Croatian
35%
65%


Slovenian
30%
70%

Lenab
29-11-18, 00:22
Many Serbs from Bosnia & Croatia came to Kosovo after the Yugoslav war, these people are not the same as the Albanian-admixed Serbs of Southern Serbia.

Nish was all Albanian-populated prior to the Serbian chauvinistic expansion a century ago.

Map by Romanian author, showing Albanian progenitors stretch from the Dinaric Alps to the Pannonian basin and Macedonia.

3rd-7th century map:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Vatra.jpg
Albanian admixture Serbs LOL!!!!!

Fatherland
29-11-18, 00:23
Albanian admixture Serbs LOL!!!!!
A "female" with yDNA. You're one phony character.

Lenab
29-11-18, 00:24
The toponymy in Southern Serbia and parts of Macedonia definitely looks very Albanian.
All South Serbs and Montenegrin identify as being Serbs same as the North Serbs who call themselves North Serbs not Hungarians

So now we can establish Serbian genetics isn't written in stone either. South Serbs are more Pontid and Alpine Med North Serbs are more genetically Dinaric South Serbs are genetically more Mediterranean let's say that being Albanian isn't some calling card for being some kind of a well...You know what

Lenab
29-11-18, 00:26
A "female" with yDNA. You're one phony character.
Why attack me personally I have a Father I am not a .......

A man with MTdna same as mine haplogroup H who is such a Balkan patriot with a North French Norman wife.

Fatherland
29-11-18, 00:27
Why attack me personally I have a Father I am not a .......

A man with MTdna same as mine haplogroup H who is such a Balkan patriot with a North French Norman wife.
yDNA cannot be passed down to females. That's what I'm implying.

Lenab
29-11-18, 00:28
Absolutely not. You are totally lost. You mixed up everything.



Of course there is! There are loads of Hungarians in Vojvodina (now part of in Serbia):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vojvodina#/media/File:Vojvodina-Ethnic-2011.GIF



That's hilarious! :laughing:

There are no “North Serbs”, just Serbs who live in Vojvodina and they descend from the Orthodox Christian migrants from Serbia proper during the Ottoman rule and after (They came with their Partriarch).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migrations_of_the_Serbs

These Serbs obviously couldn’t have moved to “ancient Dalmatia” in order to become Croats. :laughing:
No they became Catholic :D

Ok Serbs who populate North Serbia which is basically North Serbs including the phenotype

Lenab
29-11-18, 00:28
yDNA cannot be passed down to females. That's what I'm implying.
I spoke of haplogroup your female haplogroup is the same as mine

Your male haplogroup is the same as South Europeans :D

Fatherland
29-11-18, 00:34
I spoke of haplogroup your female haplogroup is the same as mine

Your male haplogroup is the same as South Europeans :D
My yDNA radiates from Albania. Same goes for EV13 and R1b-L23.

It's not saying much, but atleast it's not a transplant like you claim, these haplogroups are not common in South Slavs.

EV13 among Serbs is chiefly of Albanian extraction. Clade testing has already shown it.

markod
29-11-18, 00:34
All South Serbs and Montenegrin Identify as being Serbs same as the North Serbs who call themselves North Serbs not Hungarians

So now we can establish Serbian genetics isn't written in stone either. South Serbs are more Pontid and Alpine Med North Serbs are more genetically Dinaric South Serbs are genetically more Mediterranean let's say that being Albanian isn't some calling card for being some kind of a well...You know what

Yes, as we have established all South Slavs are Slavs with significant but varying proportions of female-biased Balkanic admixture. The Serbo-Croatians considered tribal affiliation to be inherited along the male line. A son of a native woman and a Slavic man would have been just as Slavic as a 'pure' Slav.

In Croatia we also find traces of ethnoses which became extinct with this expansion. For instance, much of the toponymy in North-Western Croatia looks Western Slavic, and the Kajkavian regional dialect seems to have a strong West Slavic substratum.

Johane Derite
29-11-18, 00:38
All South Serbs and Montenegrin Identify as being Serbs same as the North Serbs who call themselves North Serbs not Hungarians

So now we can establish Serbian genetics isn't written in stone either. South Serbs are more Pontid and Alpine Med North Serbs are more genetically Dinaric South Serbs are genetically more Mediterranean let's say that being Albanian isn't some calling card for being some kind of a well...You know what

You are misinformed. There is a hungarian minority in the north who very much has their own ethnic identity as Hungarians. Just 3 days ago was the 100 year anniversary of the annexation of Vojvodina by Serbia, and there were some manifestations. For example in Novi Sad some people even changed the street signs and one of them was "REPUBLIC OF VOJVODINA". This is obviously a very clear message.

LINK: http://rs.n1info.com/Vesti/a438807/Table-s-natpisima-Trg-republike-Vojvodine-u-Novom-sadu.html

https://insajderi.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/IMG-3d5d9bcfcd4bfd8de5b91a9f8f9c24b8-V-730x440.jpg

When I see Croats having to deal with the same type of constant misinformation coming from Serbia I understand fully solidarity behind the 2000+ Albanian soldiers that volunteered to fight against Serbia in the last Croatian war.

Wonomyro
29-11-18, 00:44
No they became Catholic

Serbs from Vojvodina never moved to anywhere and never “become Catholic”.


Ok Serbs who populate North Serbia which is basically North Serbs including the phenotype

They came to Vojvodina in 17-18th century, mostly from Sanjak area, which is now a Southern part of Serbia.

Lenab
29-11-18, 00:45
My yDNA radiates from Albania. Same goes for EV13 and R1b-L23.

It's not saying much, but atleast it's not a transplant like you claim, these haplogroups are not common in South Slavs.

EV13 among Serbs is chiefly of Albanian extraction. Clade testing has already shown it.

J2 is genetically Balkan E3b is but not seen much in Balkan Slavs but those in Balkans who are pre historic Mediterraneans E3b is Neolithic Eastern Mediterranean the first Whites/Indo Europeans came from Pontus Anatolia Hittie Cypriots these are E3b Eastern Mediterranean are the oldest therefore the most Near Eastern E3b is more Neolithic than J2 I am sure of it since it's much more wide spread than J2.

I2 which most Dinarics are including North Albanians North Serbs Croats etc are Megalithic this is the time period after Neolithic their regions are generally colder and more mountainous there fore you have to think of that in a racial sense

Lenab
29-11-18, 00:47
Serbs from Vojvodina never moved to anywhere and never “become Catholic”.



They came to Vojvodina in 17-18th century, mostly from Sanjak area, which is now a Southern part of Serbia.


Vojvodina, officially the Autonomous Province of Vojvodina, is an autonomous province of Serbia, located in the northern part of the country, in the Pannonian Plain. Novi Sad is the largest city and administrative center of Vojvodina and the second-largest city in Serbia.

Fatherland
29-11-18, 00:48
J2 is genetically Balkan E3b is but not seen much in Balkan Slavs but those in Balkans who are pre historic Mediterraneans E3b is Neolithic Eastern Mediterranean the first Whites/Indo Europeans came from Pontus Anatolia Hittie Cypriots these are E3b Eastern Mediterranean are the oldest therefore the most Near Eastern E3b is more Neolithic than J2 I am sure of it since it's much more wide spread than J2.

I2 which most Dinarics are including North Albanians North Serbs Croats etc are Megalithic this is the time period after Neolithic their regions are generally colder and more mountainous there fore you have to think of that in a racial sense
I2 in South Slavs is by majority I2a1b-CTS10228, it came to the Balkans with the Slavic invasions 6th century AD and onwards. This is established by people with 2 digit IQs and more.

North Albanians have as little as 2% I2a1b-CTS10228, if not less.

R1b-L23 which Albanians fall into is Yamnaya IE.

J2b2 is not Mediterranean. Its Ancient samples were heavily Steppe-admixed, most likely an integrated haplogroup of Yamnaya Indo-Europeans.

EV13 is Natufian in origin and later spread from the Balkans to south and north along with Indo-Europeans.

Lenab
29-11-18, 00:48
According to a Croat I spoken to Serbians who converted to being Catholic and then as if by magic called themselves Croat and moved to Dalmatia aka now modern day Croatia do indeed come from Vojvodina and they identify with being Serbs not Hungarians.

He was a Croatian man with Serbian ancestors from Vojvodina one person, one. Can you not handle that or something?

Lenab
29-11-18, 00:50
I2 in general is Megalithic Google that anywhere

Lenab
29-11-18, 00:51
You are misinformed. There is a hungarian minority in the north who very much has their own ethnic identity as Hungarians. Just 3 days ago was the 100 year anniversary of the annexation of Vojvodina by Serbia, and there were some manifestations. For example in Novi Sad some people even changed the street signs and one of them was "REPUBLIC OF VOJVODINA". This is obviously a very clear message.

LINK: http://rs.n1info.com/Vesti/a438807/Table-s-natpisima-Trg-republike-Vojvodine-u-Novom-sadu.html

https://insajderi.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/IMG-3d5d9bcfcd4bfd8de5b91a9f8f9c24b8-V-730x440.jpg

When I see Croats having to deal with the same type of constant misinformation coming from Serbia I understand fully solidarity behind the 2000+ Albanian soldiers that volunteered to fight against Serbia in the last Croatian war.
No people from Vojvodina identify with being Serbian I speak to them myself.

Fatherland
29-11-18, 00:54
I2 in general is Megalithic Google that anywhere
Megalithic people in the Balkans died out. Replaced and dilluted by invaders.

If anything, Albanians and Greeks mixed with the original I2 carriers' mtDNA. That's the only little Megalithic Balkan admix that remains, through megalithic women.

I2a1b-CTS10228 that South Slavs carry, came from the north in the early middle ages, deal with it.

Lenab
29-11-18, 00:55
Megalithic people in the Balkans died out. Replaced and dilluted by invaders.

If anything, Albanians and Greeks mixed with the original I2 carriers' mtDNA.

I2a1b-CTS10228 that South Slavs carry, came from the north in the early middle ages, deal with it.
http://www.messagetoeagle.com/enigmatic-stone-sleepers-megalithic-tombstones-in-the-western-balkans/

Study from 2016

Fatherland
29-11-18, 00:57
http://www.messagetoeagle.com/enigmatic-stone-sleepers-megalithic-tombstones-in-the-western-balkans/

Study from 2016
It's not a study, more of a blog. All dating to medieval Bogomils:

Stecci’ probably appeared in the second half of the 12th century, with the first phase lasting throughout the 13th century. A period of the most intensive production and decoration were the 14th and 15th centuries. In the 16th century their use completely ceased.



Debunked.

Bet you believe the Bosnian Indiana Jones too, and the "Pyramids". I see some Pyramid in that site banner, LMAO:

http://www.messagetoeagle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/eaglelogo.jpg

Wonomyro
29-11-18, 01:03
Yes, as we have established all South Slavs are Slavs with significant but varying proportions of female-biased Balkanic admixture. The Serbo-Croatians considered tribal affiliation to be inherited along the male line. A son of a native woman and a Slavic man would have been just as Slavic as a 'pure' Slav.

In Croatia we also find traces of ethnoses which became extinct with this expansion. For instance, much of the toponymy in North-Western Croatia looks Western Slavic, and the Kajkavian regional dialect seems to have a strong West Slavic substratum.

These are probably Slavic archaisms, not West Slavic substratum. The main split goes between Slovenian/Croatian and Bulgarian/Macedonian. Serbian dialects are in the middle of the split as the eastern Srbian dialects are transitional to Bulgarian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_languages