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Angela
09-11-18, 21:31
Razib Khan highlights this 2014 paper.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24812395

"Cross-cultural psychologists have mostly contrasted East Asia with the West. However, this study shows that there are major psychological differences within China. We propose that a history of farming rice makes cultures more interdependent, whereas farming wheat makes cultures more independent, and these agricultural legacies continue to affect people in the modern world. We tested 1162 Han Chinese participants in six sites and found that rice-growing southern China is more interdependent and holistic-thinking than the wheat-growing north. To control for confounds like climate, we tested people from neighboring counties along the rice-wheat border and found differences that were just as large. We also find that modernization and pathogen prevalence theories do not fit the data."

Khan seems persuaded.
https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/11/08/rice-culture-reduces-individualism/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

"The 2014 results made total sense to me in light of what little I knew. Southern Chinese are stereotypically more patriarchal and clannish than Northern Chinese. My inference here being that the collectivist nature of rice agriculture meant that paternal clan units of social organization were more important in the South than the North.I haven’t followed up on this work at all in all these years. Then I saw this on my Twitter feed: Teens in Rice County Are More Interdependent and Think More Holistically Than Nearby Wheat County (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1948550618808868?journalCode=sppa).
The authors utilize a natural experiment, a district in the northern province of Ningxia which through a peculiar geological quirk allows for wet-rice agriculture, unlike the rest of the province and the broader region. This is a natural “control” for many variables, as the people of this district are not demographically very different other areas of Ningxia (at least in comparison to North vs. South China).
Their results are clear and seem to confirm the 2014 study:


China’s smallest province Ningxia sits in North Central China. Surrounded by herding cultures to the north and wheat farmers to the south, Qingtongxia is a small outpost of rice farming fed by the Yellow River. We test the hypothesis that rice-farming cultures are more interdependent by comparing high school students from Qingtongxia (N = 190) to students in a nearby wheat district, Yuanzhou (N = 223). Comparing two nearby counties provides a natural test case that controls for third variables. Students in the rice county thought more holistically, treated a close friend better than a stranger, and showed lower implicit individualism. Students in the rice area showed more relative perception than students from the wheat areas on the practice trials of the framed line task, but differences were nonsignificant on the main trials. Differences between teenagers—born after the year 2000—suggest that rice–wheat differences continue among China’s next generation.

One can make a Marxist interpretation of these results: the material conditions determined aspects of economic and social organization which had cultural and psychological consequences. But, the authors also suggest that younger generations which do not engage in farming continue to exhibit the same differences as their agriculturalist parents, suggesting that an element of cultural transmission from prior generations maintained particular folkways and dispositions."


I'm much more skeptical. The Po Valley in northern Italy makes extensive use of rice agriculture, and by all those old tests created by Northern Europeans, northern Italians are much more individualistic than southern Italians.

Furthermore, I've seen some people bring up the fact that this particular area of China has a lot of Hui Moslems, in contrast to Han Chinese. If there is a substantial proportion of the people in the northern areas who are Hui Moslems, then the results would be confounded by both genetics and religion.

I'm not surprised that a lot of western scientists don't even consider these factors, but they are important.

All of that is above and beyond the fact that I think all those old "measures" of individuality are "hooey". :)

Northern Europeans are far more conformist and "group" oriented than southern Europeans. It's just that their "group" is the "tribe", not the nuclear and extended family. It can't be totally history or politics in that case, because Germany wasn't unified for a long time either, although broken up into bigger chunks. It might be a function of being ruled by foreigners for such an incredibly long time (the northern areas had their own rulers, Italian rulers, for part of the time), but I also think genetics is a factor.

markod
09-11-18, 22:52
Do these questionnaires usually ask people to rate themselves in some way? That could explain why in the case of Europe the north-south differences in individualism make no sense to me :grin: I don't think I'm alone in this since German stereotypes (both negative and positive) of Italians usually have to do with the greater individualism of the latter. Stereotypes tend to be exaggerated and unfair of course, but there might be a grain of truth perhaps.

Angela
09-11-18, 23:22
Do these questionnaires usually ask people to rate themselves in some way? That could explain why in the case of Europe the north-south differences in individualism make no sense to me :grin: I don't think I'm alone in this since German stereotypes (both negative and positive) of Italians usually have to do with the greater individualism of the latter. Stereotypes tend to be exaggerated and unfair of course, but there might be a grain of truth perhaps.

I agree. In the case of this study of that one province in China, respondents (children, I believe), were asked to draw themselves in relation to other people. If you drew yourself "larger" in relation to other children, you were supposedly more individualistic. I can tell you that my prediction is that Italian children, especially male children, would draw themselves larger. :) Mio tesoro, mia gioia, and on and on are only some of the affectionate terms for one's children. Indulgences for un "figlio o figlia di papa" are notorious in Italy. There's none of that stuff about denial being good for children. All of that adulation leads to a great sense of confidence in a lot of cases, if not actually outsize egos.

There's also none of that Scandinavian sense of: don't stand out, don't think too much of yourself, don't draw attention to yourself in comparison to the others.

Plus, in the matter of opinions, political and otherwise, there's a saying about Jews which also applies to Italians: three Jews, four opinions. :) Such opinions, as you may or may not know, are held vociferously.

The only difference I see is the relative importance, or not, of personal relationships, including both friends and family. That's one reason why so many Italian Jews were saved in Italy during the German occupation. Governments, including Italian ones, can pass any laws they want, but enforcement is another matter. Something may be the will of the "people", but if it conflicts with loyalty to a family member or a friend, it will fail.

So, as in most of the social sciences, it's a mess because the "tests" are based, imo, on the subjective beliefs of the people creating the test.

Even accepting that, and with reference to the scale developed by Hofstede and used by many academics, I think northern Europe is more collectivist. It's just, as I said above, that the "group" of concern is larger.

"Individualism vs. Collectivism: The focus of this dimension is on the question regarding whether people have a preference for being left alone to look after themselves or want to remain in a closely knitted network"

"Individualistic cultures are characterized by:

Fostering contractual relationships that revolve around the fundamentals of exchange. These cultures engage in the calculation of profit and loss prior to engagement in a behavior.
Concentration on self or at the most very near and dear ones, and concern with behavioral relationships as well as own goals, interests, and needs.
Emphasis on personal enjoyment, fun, and pleasure, over duties and social norms. They are a part of a number of in-groups which hardly have any influence on their lives.
Self-sufficiency and value independence, and placement of self-interest over collective interest. Confrontation is accepted as an attribute.
Stress on horizontal relationships (such as the relationship between spouse and spouse) rather than vertical relationships (such as the relationship between parent and child).
The notion that they hold unique beliefs.

Collectivistic cultures are characterized by:


Behavior as per social norms that are established for maintenance of social harmony among in-group members;
Considering the wider collective with regards to implications of their actions;
Sharing of resources and readiness to give up personal interest keeping in mind the collective interest;
Favoring some in-groups (such as friends and family);
Being a part of a few in-groups that have an influence on their lives. Rather than being individualistic, they have an increased inclination towards conformity;
Increased concern regarding in-group members. They show hostility or indifference toward out-group members;
Emphasis on harmony and hierarchy within group;
Regulation of behavior with the help of group norms.

Northener
10-11-18, 22:06
Northern Europeans are far more conformist and "group" oriented than southern Europeans. It's just that their "group" is the "tribe", not the nuclear and extended family. It can't be totally history or politics in that case, because Germany wasn't unified for a long time either, although broken up into bigger chunks. It might be a function of being ruled by foreigners for such an incredibly long time (the northern areas had their own rulers, Italian rulers, for part of the time), but I also think genetics is a factor.

I guess wheat vs. rice is not the thing here. It's more privat ownership vs. community based. The Po-Valley is, despite rice, privat ownership.

The real difference between North and South Europe is (surprisingly or not) the factor individualism.

See here the good old Hofstede dimensions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstede%27s_cultural_dimensions_theory).

The real differences between Italy and Netherlands/Sweden are that Italy is much more masculine has a more restrained society quit higher avoidance of uncertainty and the power differences are higher. So more macho, more hierarchical and less permissive.

Germany is somewhat in the middle, is not per se a very typical Northern country. And of course there are much differences within North and South Europe, let's not forget that. Portugal isn't Italy.

See:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/2kd0den.49.30.png

You can easily compare the countries:
https://www.hofstede-insights.com/country-comparison/germany,italy,the-netherlands,sweden/

Angela
10-11-18, 22:54
I guess wheat vs. rice is not the thing here. It's more privat ownership vs. community based. The Po-Valley is, despite rice, privat ownership.

The real difference between North and South Europe is (surprisingly or not) the factor individualism.

See here the good old Hofstede dimensions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstede%27s_cultural_dimensions_theory).

The real differences between Italy and Netherlands/Sweden are that Italy is much more masculine has a more restrained society quit higher avoidance of uncertainty and the power differences are higher. So more macho, more hierarchical and less permissive.

Germany is somewhat in the middle, is not per se a very typical Northern country. And of course there are much differences within North and South Europe, let's not forget that. Portugal isn't Italy.

See:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/2kd0den.49.30.png

You can easily compare the countries:
https://www.hofstede-insights.com/country-comparison/germany,italy,the-netherlands,sweden/

Thanks, Northener, I found this very informative.

My reaction would be that although these might be counter-intuitive conclusions for some, it rings true for me.

Italians resent being told what to do and want decentralization and team work, but they are more hierarchical than these other three nations.

They are second of that group, after the Dutch, in individualism, and more individualistic than the Swedes and the Germans.

They are MORE restrained in their behavior, if not in the outward expression of their emotions of all those groups. (I think this is part of the reason why public displays of drunkenness are so frowned upon: it's complete lack of self-control and one of the worst examples of "brutta figura".)

They are more pragmatic than most when it comes to the past and tradition and adapt where necessary.

They are much more averse to uncertainty, which can be a problem, but makes them very frugal.

Italians are highly competitive and success oriented.

The authors do point out that there are differences between southern and northern Italians on these measures, and while that's true, imo, they're not huge.

Interesting that Italy and Germany are not very far apart.

I want to access scores for countries like Portugal and Greece to compare but it doesn't seem to be possible.

Ygorcs
11-11-18, 00:57
I agree, Angela. I have never really understood all this "Northern Europeans are much more individualistic than Southern Europeans/'Latins'". Most Brazilians who go to live in Scandinavia come back telling people about the marvels of the Scandinavians who are (so they say) "always thinking about the community, the common good, they think more holistically, they aren't like people here who are more 'each on their own'". The universal praise is that the Nordic "think of everyone, not just themselves or their family". And that's what it really looks like. The much more "messy" behavior of Italians or Latin Americans always strikes me as pretty much individualistic, in some cases even self-centered. Harmony, hierarchy, discipline, adherence to social norms/order, sobriety, these are at best secondary worries. People who stand out, seek their pleasures and self-interests or are even, hum, not exactly the most law-abiding, "workaholic" and duty-obsessed people in the town are often even prized and envied. That does not look very collectivist to me.

As you imply, I think some social studies tend to assume that more isolationist behavior implies individualism and that strong familial and friend circles mean people are necessarily more colletivist, but they do not seem to get the very likely possibility that it's exactly the opposite: people may be so individualistic, but also very sociable, in a given place that they choose the small sphere they care about (I + my family + my close friends) and that sphere will be consistently above ANY other concern. Law, community, common god, nation, social order, harmony - nothing is more important than the emotional ties of an individual with their cherished ones.

Or maybe the truth is that there is not one only measure of individualism and collectivism, and a people may be simultaneously collectivist in one aspect of social life and individualistic in another.

Angela
11-11-18, 02:02
I agree, Angela. I have never really understood all this "Northern Europeans are much more individualistic than Southern Europeans/'Latins'". Most Brazilians who go to live in Scandinavia come back telling people about the marvels of the Scandinavians who are (so they say) "always thinking about the community, the common good, they think more holistically, they aren't like people here who are more 'each on their own'". The universal praise is that the Nordic "think of everyone, not just themselves or their family". And that's what it really looks like. The much more "messy" behavior of Italians or Latin Americans always strikes me as pretty much individualistic, in some cases even self-centered. Harmony, hierarchy, discipline, adherence to social norms/order, sobriety, these are at best secondary worries. People who stand out, seek their pleasures and self-interests or are even, hum, not exactly the most law-abiding, work-focused and duty-obsessed people in the town are often even prized and envied. That does not look very collectivist to me.

As you imply, I think some social studies tend to assume that more isolationist behavior implies individualism and that strong familial and friend circles mean people are necessarily more colletivist, but they do not seem to get the very likely possibility that it's exactly the opposite: people may be so individualistic, but also very sociable, in a given place that they choose the small sphere they care about (I + my family + my close friends) and that sphere will be consistently above ANY other concern. Law, community, common god, nation, social order, harmony - nothing is more important than the emotional ties of an individual with their cherished ones.

Or maybe the truth is that there is not one only measure of individualism and collectivism, and a people may be simultaneously collectivist in one aspect of social life and individualistic in another.

I agree with much of what you say, but this study recognizes both that Italians are extremely individualistic, and that they are actually much more restrained in terms of behavior than the three northern European countries in the comparison. (By clicking on the country of choice, detailed results are given and explained. I wish it were available for other countries.)

INDULGENCE
One challenge that confronts humanity, now and in the past, is the degree to which small children are socialized. Without socialization we do not become “human”. This dimension is defined as the extent to which people try to control their desires and impulses, based on the way they were raised. Relatively weak control is called “Indulgence” and relatively strong control is called “Restraint”. Cultures can, therefore, be described as Indulgent or Restrained.
A low score of 30 indicates that Italian culture is one of Restraint. Societies with a low score in this dimension have a tendency to cynicism and pessimism. Also, in contrast to Indulgent societies, Restrained societies do not put much emphasis on leisure time and control the gratification of their desires. People with this orientation have the perception that their actions are Restrained by social norms and feel that indulging themselves is somewhat wrong.

That comports with everything I know of our culture. Public drunkenness is abhorred, for example, and so is obesity. Yes, we indulge our senses, but only in moderation, not enough to subject ourselves to ridicule. Maintaining una bella figura is very important.

Italy has, although it is changing, one of the lowest rates of illegitimacy and divorce in Europe, even though abortion and divorce are now legal. I see young foreigners lamenting how "unavailable" Italian girls are in comparison to girls from northern Europe and the U.S. Family size in Italy dropped precipitously long before artificial birth control was widely available. My grandmother had eleven children, but I remember as a child hearing whispers even among the men about my grandfather's "selfishness" and "inconsiderateness". There were more "natural" means of birth control, and outright abstinence, but clearly he wasn't interested. My maternal grandfather, on the other hand had only three children.

The demands on mothers, the self sacrifice demanded of them and fathers, for that matter, are extremely high, and the social price to pay for not fulfilling those demands is equally high. A woman who is felt to give less than her all to her children would be virtually ostracized. The same is true in terms of the demands as a child, toward your parents.

I've always been amused how the Irish think they are the only ones who suffer from guilt a good part of the time. From what I can see the guilt is usually about liking or having sex. It doesn't extend to all aspects of your life. You don't know guilt until you've been raised by an Italian mother. :) It's not just or mostly, even, the fathers who enforce social norms. It's the mothers. I still judge my actions by what my mother would think even though she's long gone. Just writing this I'm struck by how often, if my husband does something of which I disapprove, I ask him what his parents would think if they knew. He does the same to me, except he asks about my mother, and all four of them are dead. It doesn't matter: their reach is beyond the grave. :)

The rules extend to food, the where, when, and how, to what you wear when, to rules for social interaction. There is nothing loose and casual about Italian society, although it is changing. It is extremely formal.

I think foreigners mistake the open facial expressions, and the expression of feeling, i.e. anger, joy etc. with other kinds of openness. Sometimes I think that openness of expression might be an escape valve given the constraints of our culture. In actuality, Italians express very openly the inconsequential things, but every Italian family is a mine field of secrets which you begin to plumb only when you become an adult, and which you certainly never expose to strangers or even neighbors. As just one example, I speak very openly about certain aspects of my life, but never, never, the really private ones. I don't even tell my dearest friends some of the most important aspects of my life. Think too of the Mafia. Not only did they never divulge any secrets, neither did any of the general population who became aware of it.

We are, in fact, very duty obsessed, as the above should show, and we work very hard. As the study found, Italians are very competitive and career oriented. Taking a two hour break during the heat of the day doesn't mean you're lazy. The store, for example, won't close until eight or later, and you're there very early in the morning. My great grandparents on my mother's side were farmers. I grew up on stories of their lives: up before daybreak, work like a mule, go inside for the heat of the day, cooking, cleaning, fixing tools, back to the fields and the animals until night finally falls and then mending tools, sewing, preserving, you name it. My mother saw it up close and personal after her mother died, and she detested it.

As for the law, it was often imposed by foreign occupying powers, and it became almost an exercise in patriotism to ignore it. Plus, as the article shows, Italians are pragmatic. If some of the thousands of minute, often conflicting laws encrusting the bureaucracy don't work, ignore human nature, then it's the law which is ignored more often in Italy than, say, in Germany, and, as you say, if it is in conflict with what we owe to family or friend, the law fails. Personal relationships trump everything. That can have unfortunate consequences. It's why Italian gangs made such a ton of money during prohibition in the U.S. Italians have been making and drinking wine for two thousand years with no ill effects. There was no way they were going to obey a law that said they shouldn't make it and drink it. If the more anti-social started to import and sell it on the black market, their compatriots weren't about to turn them in.

I think perhaps some of the stereotypes derive from behavior more common south of Rome, but even then, it is exaggerated imo. Italian Americans here in the U.S., overwhelmingly from southern Italy, work extremely hard. Perhaps it has to do that when we do have leisure, we really enjoy it and openly show that enjoyment. In what has historically been a country where its people suffered a great deal of the time, perhaps we learned how to really savor the moments of joy. Or perhaps it's genetic, and certain people really do "feel" things more deeply.

davef
11-11-18, 06:37
I would rate myself high on the indulgence scale. I'm still very productive in my career and work to stay in good physical shape but other than that I'm super indulgent and love to do what feels goooood

Ygorcs
11-11-18, 10:12
I agree with much of what you say, but this study recognizes both that Italians are extremely individualistic, and that they are actually much more restrained in terms of behavior than the three northern European countries in the comparison. (By clicking on the country of choice, detailed results are given and explained. I wish it were available for other countries.)

INDULGENCE
One challenge that confronts humanity, now and in the past, is the degree to which small children are socialized. Without socialization we do not become “human”. This dimension is defined as the extent to which people try to control their desires and impulses, based on the way they were raised. Relatively weak control is called “Indulgence” and relatively strong control is called “Restraint”. Cultures can, therefore, be described as Indulgent or Restrained.
A low score of 30 indicates that Italian culture is one of Restraint. Societies with a low score in this dimension have a tendency to cynicism and pessimism. Also, in contrast to Indulgent societies, Restrained societies do not put much emphasis on leisure time and control the gratification of their desires. People with this orientation have the perception that their actions are Restrained by social norms and feel that indulging themselves is somewhat wrong.

That comports with everything I know of our culture. Public drunkenness is abhorred, for example, and so is obesity. Yes, we indulge our senses, but only in moderation, not enough to subject ourselves to ridicule. Maintaining una bella figura is very important.

Italy has, although it is changing, one of the lowest rates of illegitimacy and divorce in Europe, even though abortion and divorce are now legal. I see young foreigners lamenting how "unavailable" Italian girls are in comparison to girls from northern Europe and the U.S. Family size in Italy dropped precipitously long before artificial birth control was widely available. My grandmother had eleven children, but I remember as a child hearing whispers even among the men about my grandfather's "selfishness" and "inconsiderateness". There were more "natural" means of birth control, and outright abstinence, but clearly he wasn't interested. My maternal grandfather, on the other hand had only three children.

The demands on mothers, the self sacrifice demanded of them and fathers, for that matter, are extremely high, and the social price to pay for not fulfilling those demands is equally high. A woman who is felt to give less than her all to her children would be virtually ostracized. The same is true in terms of the demands as a child, toward your parents.

I've always been amused how the Irish think they are the only ones who suffer from guilt a good part of the time. From what I can see the guilt is usually about liking or having sex. It doesn't extend to all aspects of your life. You don't know guilt until you've been raised by an Italian mother. :) It's not just or mostly, even, the fathers who enforce social norms. It's the mothers. I still judge my actions by what my mother would think even though she's long gone. Just writing this I'm struck by how often, if my husband does something of which I disapprove, I ask him what his parents would think if they knew. He does the same to me, except he asks about my mother, and all four of them are dead. It doesn't matter: their reach is beyond the grave. :)

The rules extend to food, the where, when, and how, to what you wear when, to rules for social interaction. There is nothing loose and casual about Italian society, although it is changing. It is extremely formal.

I think foreigners mistake the open facial expressions, and the expression of feeling, i.e. anger, joy etc. with other kinds of openness. Sometimes I think that openness of expression might be an escape valve given the constraints of our culture. In actuality, Italians express very openly the inconsequential things, but every Italian family is a mine field of secrets which you begin to plumb only when you become an adult, and which you certainly never expose to strangers or even neighbors. As just one example, I speak very openly about certain aspects of my life, but never, never, the really private ones. I don't even tell my dearest friends some of the most important aspects of my life. Think too of the Mafia. Not only did they never divulge any secrets, neither did any of the general population who became aware of it.

We are, in fact, very duty obsessed, as the above should show, and we work very hard. As the study found, Italians are very competitive and career oriented. Taking a two hour break during the heat of the day doesn't mean you're lazy. The store, for example, won't close until eight or later, and you're there very early in the morning. My great grandparents on my mother's side were farmers. I grew up on stories of their lives: up before daybreak, work like a mule, go inside for the heat of the day, cooking, cleaning, fixing tools, back to the fields and the animals until night finally falls and then mending tools, sewing, preserving, you name it. My mother saw it up close and personal after her mother died, and she detested it.

As for the law, it was often imposed by foreign occupying powers, and it became almost an exercise in patriotism to ignore it. Plus, as the article shows, Italians are pragmatic. If some of the thousands of minute, often conflicting laws encrusting the bureaucracy don't work, ignore human nature, then it's the law which is ignored more often in Italy than, say, in Germany, and, as you say, if it is in conflict with what we owe to family or friend, the law fails. Personal relationships trump everything. That can have unfortunate consequences. It's why Italian gangs made such a ton of money during prohibition in the U.S. Italians have been making and drinking wine for two thousand years with no ill effects. There was no way they were going to obey a law that said they shouldn't make it and drink it. If the more anti-social started to import and sell it on the black market, their compatriots weren't about to turn them in.

I think perhaps some of the stereotypes derive from behavior more common south of Rome, but even then, it is exaggerated imo. Italian Americans here in the U.S., overwhelmingly from southern Italy, work extremely hard. Perhaps it has to do that when we do have leisure, we really enjoy it and openly show that enjoyment. In what has historically been a country where its people suffered a great deal of the time, perhaps we learned how to really savor the moments of joy. Or perhaps it's genetic, and certain people really do "feel" things more deeply.

Very interesting points, Angela. It seems I was wrong on some aspects about Italian social ways, but what you say coupled with the points we seem to in agreement about lead me to conclude even more strongly that, indeed, this issue (individualism x collectivism) is much more nuanced and multidimensional than people usually think, and above all you can't precisely deduce how individualistic or collectivistic an individual will be on a certain matter, on the basis of things like strong family ties or more openess to meet and talk to strangers (as I've seen quite a few people equating sociability with collectivism or communitarianism in my life).

Northener
11-11-18, 11:52
In this respect the high grid, low grid, individualism, collectivism theory of Mary Douglas is also interesting:

https://www.mupload.nl/img/rdqmvpr.png
https://www.mupload.nl/img/whuvidzlir.png
https://www.mupload.nl/img/tuztnw2.png

The last years this further developed by Schwartz, 'grid'/power distance, 'in and out group', and the 'grade' dimension:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/zmot293.png

This results in a figure in where you can find the NW European/ Scandic countries on the one site, Germany, UK, Ireland etc in the middle and the European Med/Latin countries on the other side:

https://www.mupload.nl/img/3i1cns60s.png

It looks like if the grid/power distance and the in and out group is in the North -South dimension most coherent and most different.

See:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267514061_Grid_Group_and_Grade

Angela
11-11-18, 15:53
In this respect the high grid, low grid, individualism, collectivism theory of Mary Douglas is also interesting:

https://www.mupload.nl/img/rdqmvpr.png
https://www.mupload.nl/img/whuvidzlir.png
https://www.mupload.nl/img/tuztnw2.png

The last years this further developed by Schwartz, 'grid'/power distance, 'in and out group', and the 'grade' dimension:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/zmot293.png

This results in a figure in where you can find the NW European/ Scandic countries on the one site, Germany, UK, Ireland etc in the middle and the European Med/Latin countries on the other side:

https://www.mupload.nl/img/3i1cns60s.png

It looks like if the grid/power distance and the in and out group is in the North -South dimension most coherent and most different.

See:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267514061_Grid_Group_and_Grade

If scores were obtained from both "halves" of Italy, the results would be different. That said, the first analysis better captures our reality.