PDA

View Full Version : China, China, China!



Angela
09-11-18, 21:55
Every time I turn around I see more and more disturbing news from China.

I started this thread a while ago.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/36945-1984-Chinese-style?highlight=1984


Now there's this:
China’s brightest children are being recruited to develop AI ‘killer bots’






Beijing Institute of Technology recruits 31 ‘patriotic’ youngsters for new AI weapons development programme
Expert in international science policy describes course as ‘extremely powerful and troubling’

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/2172141/chinas-brightest-children-are-being-recruited-develop-ai-killer

ToBeOrNotToBe
10-11-18, 01:31
The Chinese don't innovate, and this isn't anything racialist as Japan does. Even today, they mostly copy US and Japanese tech - I can't think of any industry-leading Chinese companies, for example.

Groninger
12-11-18, 09:07
I don't know why everybody is obsessed with Putin and Russia; China is way more dangerous!

And the Chinese will dominate various branches of technology and industry soon enough; they educate incredible numbers of engineers; they send their kids to the best schools in the West; and in the meantime, westerners are wasting their time on nonsense like genderstudies...

bicicleur
12-11-18, 14:06
The Chinese don't innovate, and this isn't anything racialist as Japan does. Even today, they mostly copy US and Japanese tech - I can't think of any industry-leading Chinese companies, for example.

they don't have the cheapest labour any more
and - unlike the Japanese - they will innovate

bicicleur
12-11-18, 14:13
the Big Brother in China is worriesome indeed
but as long as they don't try to export this concept, I don't feel threatened

some try to abuse the fear for China
Belgian politicians did so when China tried to invest in the Belgian electrity grid
they said China would spy and get to much know-how from the Belgian electrity grid management
and the press didn't have any critics on that, they played along with the politicians
I can't imagine what special know-how Belgium has in electricity distribution that the Chinese can't figure out for themselves
the real reason is, the Belgian electrity grid has a monopoly, protected by Belgian law
and the management is full of political mandates who get very well paid for their zero expertise

Jovialis
12-11-18, 15:44
I bet in the future, when they look back on this time period, they will consider it to be similar to another Cold War. China is indeed the USA's greatest rival, that is creating another bi-polar world. The more and more, we relinquish our uni-polarity as the most powerful state; the sooner we will create a bi-polar/multi-polar world, that ultimately results in world war. The "American Century" of the 1900s has facilitated relatively more peace than previous times. That era is coming to an end.

Salento
12-11-18, 17:35
I bet in the future, when they look back on this time period, they will consider it to be similar to another Cold War. China is indeed the USA's greatest rival, that is creating another bi-polar world. The more and more, we relinquish our uni-polarity as the most powerful state; the sooner we will create a bi-polar/multi-polar world, that ultimately results in world war. The "American Century" of the 1900s has facilitated relatively more peace than previous times. That era is coming to an end.

I’m still processing the statement of President Macron of France listing the “Enemies”, and calling for the creation of a European Army to defend against China, Russia, and the USA.
The EU Army concept is not new, but the new “enemy” is.
It seems You could be right, That era is coming to an end.

Macron:
... “We have to protect ourselves with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America,”
Mr Macron told France’s Europe 1 radio in an interview ....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-european-army-france-russia-us-military-defence-eu-a8619721.html

bicicleur
12-11-18, 18:20
I’m still processing the statement of President Macron of France listing the “Enemies”, and calling for the creation of a European Army to defend against China, Russia, and the USA.
The EU Army concept is not new, but the new “enemy” is.
It seems You could be right, That era is coming to an end.
Macron:
... “We have to protect ourselves with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America,”
Mr Macron told France’s Europe 1 radio in an interview ....
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-european-army-france-russia-us-military-defence-eu-a8619721.html

Macron doesn't see the US as a threat to Europe
he sees Trump as a threat to the political caste to which he belongs

he's also not happy with the very recent Belgian decission to buy American F-35 fighterplanes instead of the French Dassault Raphale
he feels France is losing controll over its own weaponry

Groninger
12-11-18, 18:33
The West has itself to blame for the Chinese threat, as China's rise has been immensely stimulated by our stupid policy of exporting our industry to that country (politicians call this "free trade").

Angela
12-11-18, 19:09
Some very good insights here. I'd only add that China is indeed becoming a threat to its neighbors, and if its industrial might grows, the threat will widen.

The situation reminds me of that of Japan in the first decades of the 20th century.

hrvclv
12-11-18, 19:55
The Chinese are now buying farmland in France. Why shouldn't they, if we are stupid enough to let them do it?

One glimmer of hope, though : for the first time in years, Chinese growth has dropped below its traditional two-figure levels. Last I heard for 2018 was 6.5%. Far better than any country in the EU, for sure, but still, things may be changing there too.

I don't think Macron fears any US "invasion" of France. He is worried US military strength might serve as leverage for economic blackmail (something like what is currently going on with the Iranian sanctions, and French firms being deterred from trading there). He is also concerned the EU might some day be abruptly left to fend for itself, with the US withdrawing from the NATO burden. Well, if it happens, the Europeans will have nobody to blame but themselves.

Groninger
12-11-18, 20:29
It is laudable and courageous that Trump is implementing these tariffs to put an end to the decades-long policy of economic capitulation toward China; but it is too late to make the Chinese threat go away; - the sleeping giant has woken up!

Groninger
12-11-18, 20:40
I also think it is time to seriously consider what to do with NATO - the way things are going now, we are pushing the Russians right into the arms of the Chinese! In the long term, the Russians have a lot to fear from China, especially in Siberia; we have a lot more to fear from the Chinese than from the Russians; so I think it is time we try to become friends again.

hrvclv
12-11-18, 21:10
I also think it is time to seriously consider what to do with NATO - the way things are going now, we are pushing the Russians right into the arms of the Chinese! In the long term, the Russians have a lot to fear from China, especially in Siberia; we have a lot more to fear from the Chinese than from the Russians; so I think it is time we try to become friends again.

I don't think western Europeans have a priori antagonistic feelings towards (post-soviet) Russia. It may be a different story in the East European countries that were under soviet rule - understandably. Clearly, increased economic cooperation with Russia would serve the interests of both the EU and the Russians themselves (manufactured goods / raw materials). But the idea will be hard to sell to Hungarians or Poles.

Besides, the main obstacle is Putin himself, and the way he uses his people's nationalistic paranoia to serve his very personal political and empirialistic agenda. Episodes like the invasion of Crimea and intervention in Donbass can't contribute much to diplomatic rapprochement.

In the meantime, indeed, both the EU and the US are pushing Russia into China's open arms. The same goes for Iran.

LeBrok
13-11-18, 02:30
I’m still processing the statement of President Macron of France listing the “Enemies”, and calling for the creation of a European Army to defend against China, Russia, and the USA.
The EU Army concept is not new, but the new “enemy” is.
It seems You could be right, That era is coming to an end.

Macron:
... “We have to protect ourselves with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America,”
Mr Macron told France’s Europe 1 radio in an interview ....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-european-army-france-russia-us-military-defence-eu-a8619721.html
Thank your "brilliant" president for alienating all the friends. It is easier for China now to forge aliances and economic connections. America First (Alone)!

LeBrok
13-11-18, 02:39
Some very good insights here. I'd only add that China is indeed becoming a threat to its neighbors, and if its industrial might grows, the threat will widen.

The situation reminds me of that of Japan in the first decades of the 20th century.
I'm more positive about China. It had wars with neighbors when it was poor. Now it trades more with everybody and even border skirmishes are unheard of. I believe that with rise of wealth china will relax communist party stronghold eventually and will become democratic. I'm surprised they are still in power there. They were unlucky, more liberal first secretary wasn't elected a leader, Gorbachev like.

LeBrok
13-11-18, 02:49
The Chinese are now buying farmland in France. Why shouldn't they, if we are stupid enough to let them do it?

One glimmer of hope, though : for the first time in years, Chinese growth has dropped below its traditional two-figure levels. Last I heard for 2018 was 6.5%. Far better than any country in the EU, for sure, but still, things may be changing there too.

I don't think Macron fears any US "invasion" of France. He is worried US military strength might serve as leverage for economic blackmail (something like what is currently going on with the Iranian sanctions, and French firms being deterred from trading there). He is also concerned the EU might some day be abruptly left to fend for itself, with the US withdrawing from the NATO burden. Well, if it happens, the Europeans will have nobody to blame but themselves.
Remember in 80s and 90s all the world was afraid of Japanese buying everything in the West? What happened since? Wait a moment, French Renault bought Japanese Nisan and Korean Motors. Japanese and Koreans should be afraid of French people!
Now, do you know how much Saudis own in France? No? Do you know how much Germans own in France? No?

And now we are afraid of chinese! Boohoo!

LeBrok
13-11-18, 02:57
It is laudable and courageous that Trump is implementing these tariffs to put an end to the decades-long policy of economic capitulation toward China; but it is too late to make the Chinese threat go away; - the sleeping giant has woken up!What economic capitulation?!!! USA made hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars in China. It wasn't the easiest market to make money in, and still problems persist, but it benefited both sides handsomely. Apple alone just repatriated 250 billion dollars to US, money it made on the whole world, china included. Should we mention how much money car companies made in china, or fast food, wine, beer, electronics, beef, pork etc, etc? Remember, international trade benefits all parties involved.

Salento
13-11-18, 03:27
Thank your "brilliant" president for alienating all the friends. It is easier for China now to forge aliances and economic connections. America First (Alone)!

Economic Connections with China always end with Loss of Jobs of the other Countries.
China want to export, but not to import anything that they already produce. They are super protective of their own Market.

“China First” (Supported by Hypocrites)

Worth mentioning are the domestic human rights abuse, the lack of civil liberties, corruption, and the Hypocrisy of the “Civilized Nations” doing business with this confused Communist Regime.

———
imo Macron has Stockholm Syndrome (sexually abused as a minor by a 40 years old Woman and then marr....) he needs a lot of help.

Tutkun Arnaut
13-11-18, 03:36
On a positive side about China: They eat fried animal testicles (feed the army to toughen them up) so they could be exported to China instead of thrown away.
As for China's strength in the worlds stage, I don't see them getting in confrontation with America or Europe. If they try America and Europe will stop buying their junk and Chinese go back to the bowl of rice. Also development will be around the world. Technology made it possible so expect China economically as middle income country. China also has a number of sizable neighboring countries that if felt threaten by China could form a Nato style alliance. Vietnam,Malaysia, Philippines, Japan. Together they form another China.
China also militarily has a space weakness. It can protect its satellites only in geostationary position, not in elliptical orbit since Europe and america posses the rest of space above their lands.
China also is dependent in energy sources. Ones oil and gas stops flowing to China they have nothing to cook their food, so they have to start eating raw food. I can count more but I am lazy...

Salento
13-11-18, 03:54
On a positive side about China: They eat fried animal testicles (feed the army to toughen them up) so they could be exported to China instead of thrown away.


They also eat your Avatar!

Groninger
13-11-18, 04:10
What economic capitulation?!!! USA made hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars in China. It wasn't the easiest market to make money in, and still problems persist, but it benefited both sides handsomely. Apple alone just repatriated 250 billion dollars to US, money it made on the whole world, china included. Should we mention how much money car companies made in china, or fast food, wine, beer, electronics, beef, pork etc, etc? Remember, international trade benefits all parties involved.

International trade does not necessarily benefit all parties involved; there are often winners and losers. In this case it's clear that China won and the US lost: the US has been burdened with an enormous trade deficit, and lost millions of manufacturing jobs; China, on the other hand, has built up an industry, acquired modern technologies, and grown from a poor backward country into a world power. The decision of the ruling class of the US to use China as a cheap labor base was shortsighted, selfish and deceitful; they sacrificed the industrial foundation of the country to make some personal financial gains. You could call this an act of treason with some reason. All of this has had a destabilizing impact on the US. You can't export people's jobs without creating enormous resentment. This crowd of people who have been made useless are looking for revenge. The fashionable politicians and CEOs who are benefiting from the globalist trade system tell these people they should worry about climate change and transgender bathrooms instead. It's not going to end well, I fear...

edulofter
13-11-18, 04:27
Chinese companies lack the spirit of innovation and often copy the results of companies in developed countries such as the United States. In addition, there is no freedom of speech in China.

edulofter
13-11-18, 04:31
There are also some excellent companies in China, like Alibaba. Alibaba does facilitate the trade of SMEs. But unfortunately, the main shareholders of Alibaba are not Chinese. You can check it out.

LABERIA
13-11-18, 11:31
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSitvix84cA
"The Chinese are coming" Check Point Documentary

LABERIA
13-11-18, 11:51
Also, i will suggest you to watch this documentary:
When China Met Africa

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_China_Met_Africa)
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_China_Met_Africa)Here are the trailers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR77SDGf7wk
WHEN CHINA MET AFRICA (Bullfrog Films clip)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RURZVHu0qA8
When China Met Africa: Mr Liu

Angela
15-11-18, 16:17
Still think China's a threat only to its neighbors?

"Today @Reuters (https://twitter.com/Reuters) published my investigation into how Chinese telecoms giant ZTE is helping Venezuela build a system that monitors citizen behavior through a new ID card, known as the “fatherland card.”

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/venezuela-zte/

bicicleur
15-11-18, 18:53
Still think China's a threat only to its neighbors?

"Today @Reuters (https://twitter.com/Reuters) published my investigation into how Chinese telecoms giant ZTE is helping Venezuela build a system that monitors citizen behavior through a new ID card, known as the “fatherland card.”

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/venezuela-zte/

now you got me worried

LeBrok
22-11-18, 01:45
International trade does not necessarily benefit all parties involved; there are often winners and losers. It is a false statement. It benefits both sides. Thanks to increased trade and move of capital, in both countries prices of goods are lower and natural resources and food more available, which benefits every person in both countries. However, it is true that not everyone benefited equally. Some people lost their jobs, and had to re educate or were displaced in search for work. Some businesses coulnd't compete and went under. Having said that, even these unfortunate people benefited with lower prices for goods.
Remember these things:
Trade between countries makes competition more intense, and it always benefits all people. More competition is always good.
Both countries GDP grew nicely for last 30 years with minimum unemployment. Except few years after 2008 crisis, though it wasn't caused by trade with China, but self inflicted wounds by US.
Every time in history when countries tried insulationist trading policies and tariffs on imports it badly beckfield for them. Best example is 1929 Great Depression and effect of tariffs which deepened and prolonged it.

Salento
22-11-18, 02:22
It is a false statement. It benefits both sides. Thanks to increased trade and move of capital, in both countries prices of goods are lower and natural resources and food more available, which benefits every person in both countries. However, it is true that not everyone benefited equally. Some people lost their jobs, and had to re educate or were displaced in search for work. Some businesses coulnd't compete and went under. Having said that, even these unfortunate people benefited with lower prices for goods.
Remember these things:
Trade between countries makes competition more intense, and it always benefits all people. More competition is always good.
Both countries GDP grew nicely for last 30 years with minimum unemployment. Except few years after 2008 crisis, though it wasn't caused by trade with China, but self inflicted wounds by US.
Every time in history when countries tried insulationist trading policies and tariffs on imports it badly beckfield for them. Best example is 1929 Great Depression and effect of tariffs which deepened and prolonged it.
Unless you’re from Detroit, Michigan!

Groninger
22-11-18, 09:09
It is a false statement. It benefits both sides. Thanks to increased trade and move of capital, in both countries prices of goods are lower and natural resources and food more available, which benefits every person in both countries. However, it is true that not everyone benefited equally. Some people lost their jobs, and had to re educate or were displaced in search for work. Some businesses coulnd't compete and went under. Having said that, even these unfortunate people benefited with lower prices for goods.
Remember these things:
Trade between countries makes competition more intense, and it always benefits all people. More competition is always good.
Both countries GDP grew nicely for last 30 years with minimum unemployment. Except few years after 2008 crisis, though it wasn't caused by trade with China, but self inflicted wounds by US.
Every time in history when countries tried insulationist trading policies and tariffs on imports it badly beckfield for them. Best example is 1929 Great Depression and effect of tariffs which deepened and prolonged it.


Well yes, you could say that both sides benefited since China was allowed to develop, while the US consumer was allowed to buy cheaper goods. In terms of power, however, the exchange has been entirely in China's favor. As a result of this free trade policy, China transformed from a more or less agricultural society into a industrialized, technologically advanced nation, and an economic and military superpower. The USA is faced with a declining industry, a destabilized society, and its most dangerous rival since the war of 1812.

Also, your notion that tariffs always backfire fore the nation that imposes them is simply wrong. The USA used tariffs in the 19th century to protect its own emerging industry against British competition, and that worked out pretty well; there are more such examples of successful protectionism, such as Bismarck's Germany and Cromwell's England.

markod
22-11-18, 10:27
Chinese companies lack the spirit of innovation and often copy the results of companies in developed countries such as the United States. In addition, there is no freedom of speech in China.

Companies aren't where real innovation takes place. Particle research, space reconnaissance, nuclear power, alternative energies etc. is where the Chinese are surging ahead.

LeBrok
22-11-18, 17:35
Unless you’re from Detroit, Michigan! "Unless"? You should notice that I covered this too.

However, it is true that not everyone benefited equally. Some people lost their jobs, and had to re educate or were displaced in search for work. Some businesses coulnd't compete and went under. Having said that, even these unfortunate people benefited with lower prices for goods.

LeBrok
22-11-18, 18:03
Well yes, you could say that both sides benefited since China was allowed to develop, while the US consumer was allowed to buy cheaper goods. In terms of power, however, the exchange has been entirely in China's favor. As a result of this free trade policy, China transformed from a more or less agricultural society into a industrialized, technologically advanced nation, and an economic and military superpower. The USA is faced with a declining industry, a destabilized society, and its most dangerous rival since the war of 1812.

Also, your notion that tariffs always backfire fore the nation that imposes them is simply wrong. The USA used tariffs in the 19th century to protect its own emerging industry against British competition, and that worked out pretty well; there are more such examples of successful protectionism, such as Bismarck's Germany and Cromwell's England. Nobody says that a country can't develop and prosper by itself. The argument is that countries and societies can develop economically faster in economic cooperation. The bigger the market, the faster the growth. That's why free trade, or as close as possible to it, is being embraced by pretty much the whole world. The evidence is staggering and not difficult to spot. Only people with strong tribalism, nationalism and lack of economic knowledge or logical thinking and propensity to conspiracies can claim otherwise.

Also, we shouldn't ignore other benefit of economic growth. Poverty breeds tribalism, slavery, crime, nationalism and dictatorships. Economic growth is crucial to building open, inclusive, democratic and free societies. In not so distant future China will turn democratic and will join western countries in guarding same values. They just need Gorbachev/Eastern Europe moment. Chinese people are already ready, they have money and long all the freedoms we have. Well off people don't do revolutions, no need to keep them enslaved. Just a matter of time and positive political changes will come.
See, this would be impossible if China stayed poor, locked in a cycle of communist regimes or some other form of dictatorship forever. Thanks to US/world capital, exchange of ideas and trade, now they have a chance. Help the world to develop economically and you will "produce" more strong friends than enemies and more peaceful world.

Groninger
22-11-18, 22:32
Only people with strong tribalism, nationalism and lack of economic knowledge or logical thinking and propensity to conspiracies can claim otherwise.

Well, this quote clearly demonstrates that you do not treat this as a matter of logic but as an article of faith.

Groninger
22-11-18, 22:42
In not so distant future China will turn democratic and will join western countries in guarding same values. They just need Gorbachev/Eastern Europe moment. Chinese people are already ready, they have money and long all the freedoms we have. Well off people don't do revolutions, no need to keep them enslaved. Just a matter of time and positive political changes will come.
See, this would be impossible if China stayed poor, locked in a cycle of communist regimes or some other form of dictatorship forever. Thanks to US/world capital, exchange of ideas and trade, now they have a chance. Help the world to develop economically and you will "produce" more strong friends than enemies and more peaceful world.

Again, this has nothing to do with logic or knowledge, but with a religious belief. Travel to China, talk to Chinese people and you will see that the desire for liberal democracy and human rights there is not as widespread as you think. Chinese people are mainly very nationalistic. Were China to become a democracy, that would be a dangerous thing; I suspect that would bring a hyperaggressive government to power.

markod
22-11-18, 23:06
Again, this has nothing to do with logic or knowledge, but with a religious belief. Travel to China, talk to Chinese people and you will see that the desire for liberal democracy and human rights there is not as widespread as you think. Chinese people are mainly very nationalistic. Were China to become a democracy, that would be a dangerous thing; I suspect that would bring a hyperaggressive government to power.

Similar attitudes prevail in Russia, Iran, the Central Asian countries etc. . It doesn't necessarily follow that an illiberal country must also be particularly belligerent one. The threat that China poses in a geopolitical sense is a classic case of Thucydides trap, i. e. the impending supersession of the dominant power by another. This was bound to happen as the countries occupying the Eurasian landmass are becoming economically integrated. With the development of OBOR which is particularly welcomed by Russia the geopolitical center of the earth will necessarily shift towards the east, which of course entails the relative diminishing of power for us and the Americans. One might call this a 'threat', but save for war there's no stopping the process. Even tariffs would probably backfire as the world would become even more wary of European influence. We can only make the best of the situation.

LeBrok
23-11-18, 02:22
Well, this quote clearly demonstrates that you do not treat this as a matter of logic but as an article of faith. You are "almost" right. Both. Don't you know that most of people take complicated things as beliefs? If one can't understand, one needs to believe. Some people understand, but the rest just believes. If one can't understand, one has to believe if things are right or wrong, true of false, work or not. However, it is not too bad if one knows who is smart and understands, to believe what he says.
I believe people who base their knowledge on empirical evidence, replicable experiments, statistical observations, and logic in general, etc.

LeBrok
23-11-18, 02:31
Again, this has nothing to do with logic or knowledge, but with a religious belief. Travel to China, talk to Chinese people and you will see that the desire for liberal democracy and human rights there is not as widespread as you think. Chinese people are mainly very nationalistic. It doesn't matter. Giving a choice all people want to live in free country where they can speak freely, believe freely, travel freely, decide about their lives freely. The fuller the belly, the more other things matter, freedoms including, and people are more prone to being giving, sharing and inclusive. They relax and are less likely to attack others to get their stuff, like it used to be for ages. It is a trend and will continue together with all the world getting well off.

Boreas
23-11-18, 06:49
China also is dependent in energy sources. Ones oil and gas stops flowing to China they have nothing to cook their food, so they have to start eating raw food. I can count more but I am lazy...

Does Europe have enough energy sources??? They have easy access to Central Asia Sources. They are in pact with Russia&Iran. They don't care Human Rights etc so MiddleEast countries like Saudi Arabia, will always be their good customers...

Without Chinese Rare Element Source, Europe can't even use solar energy. They are the leader and they are close to other exporter countries
https://investingnews.com/daily/resource-investing/critical-metals-investing/rare-earth-investing/rare-earth-producing-countries/

--------------------------------------------------------

About Chinese&Innovasion

Japan was also same. Japon products were seemed as today's Chinese products: cheap and nasty.

----------------------------------------------------------

But China has limitations as well, but it hasn't yet reached the top

LeBrok
23-11-18, 18:28
Does Europe have enough energy sources??? They have easy access to Central Asia Sources. They are in pact with Russia&Iran. They don't care Human Rights etc so MiddleEast countries like Saudi Arabia, will always be their good customers...

Without Chinese Rare Element Source, Europe can't even use solar energy. They are the leader and they are close to other exporter countries
https://investingnews.com/daily/resource-investing/critical-metals-investing/rare-earth-investing/rare-earth-producing-countries/

--------------------------------------------------------

About Chinese&Innovasion

Japan was also same. Japon products were seemed as today's Chinese products: cheap and nasty.

----------------------------------------------------------

But China has limitations as well, but it hasn't yet reached the top
Great examples how it works and how trade benefits all. More free the better.


Japon products were seemed as today's Chinese products: cheap and nasty. And let's mention how the world was afraid of Japan buying properties and businesses in their countries, and producing cheap stuff, the new Japanese imperialism! I could hear old generation complaining "F.. Japs this and that." So much hatred.

What the heck happened to this unsubstantiated claims and fears?!!! Now Japanese are well off, peaceful and respected nation! Remember this!

Angela
24-11-18, 01:30
Nazi Germany was perfectly happy to live under an authoritarian regime with no freedom of speech, press, or even much freedom of religion. They sat still for the euthanasia of their less than "perfect" children, the dependent elderly, homosexuals (when they weren't party leaders), as well, of course, of Jews and Poles, changing their laws to accommodate it. I know of no protests and no lack of resistance of any kind.

It didn't work so well in Italy; we're far too anarchic by nature, so maybe "ethnic" genetic differences play a part. Of course, since the first thing the fascists did was to confiscate all weapons, violent resistance was, in fact, impossible until the British clandestinely provided the weapons. The resistance had to be in nonviolent ways.

Japan was much the same. The difference is that they experienced the use of the atomic bomb at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Much has been written about the scars on the Japanese psyche from that event.

Every situation has to be looked at individually.

What I do know is that if the U.S. was more skeptical and pessimistic about Japanese intentions they might have discovered the war preparations going on for years, perhaps decades, and not only would the U.S. have suffered the destruction of life and naval equipment at Pearl Harbor, but the Battle for the Pacific would not have dragged on for so long, with terrible human costs for both the U.S. and Japan.

I think all of this boils down, imo, to whether one sees human beings and groups with clear eyed realism or prefers an unrealistic optimism.


See:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...by-end-of-2020 (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-21/beijing-to-judge-every-resident-based-on-behavior-by-end-of-2020)

"China’s plan to judge each of its 1.3 billion people based on their social behavior is moving a step closer to reality, with Beijing set to adopt a lifelong points program by 2021 that assigns personalized ratings for each resident.

The capital city will pool data from several departments to reward and punish some 22 million citizens based on their actions and reputations by the end of 2020, according to a plan (http://zhengce.beijing.gov.cn/library/192/33/50/438650/1571810/index.html) posted on the Beijing municipal government’s website on Monday. Those with better so-called social credit will get “green channel” benefits while those who violate laws will find life more difficult.

The final version of China’s national social credit system remains uncertain. But as rules forcing social networks and internet providers to remove anonymity get increasingly enforced and facial recognition systems become more popular with policing bodies, authorities are likely to find everyone from internet dissenters to train-fare skippers easier to catch -- and punish -- than ever before."

"Hangzhou (https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1617342583146306104&wfr=spider&for=pc) rolled out its personal credit system earlier this year, rewarding “pro-social behaviors” such as volunteer work and blood donations while punishing those who violate traffic laws and charge under-the-table fees. By the end of May, people with bad credit in China have been blocked from booking more than 11 million flights and 4 million high-speed train trips, according to the National Development and Reform Commission.
According to the Beijing government’s plan, different agencies will link databases to get a more detailed picture of every resident’s interactions across a swathe of services. The proposal calls for agencies including tourism bodies, business regulators and transit authorities to work together."

You can't even get phone access without a government ID.

bicicleur
24-11-18, 15:15
we can make lengthy discussions about authoritarian and dangerous regimes all around the world, and there are a lot of them
but in the end we have to be pragmatic and acknowledge there is very little we can do about it
Trump has showed it again by his stance toward Saoudi-Arabia
I don't agree with him, but at least he is open and honest about it, which none of his predecessors were
this Saoudi regime is dangerous as well, they've sent and financed imams to European mosques to preach hatred, we all know what were the consequences
in this country there is an undertone which has created Al Qaeda
at first they were even considered allies by the west to fight the Russians in Afghanistan
they are causing famine in Yemen with starvation for 85.000 children, but killing one reporter causes more outrage
yet the Saoudis are still considered western allies
we are powerless against evil all around this world
the only alternative is to protect ourselves within our own territories

Angela
24-11-18, 17:28
we can make lengthy discussions about authoritarian and dangerous regimes all around the world, and there are a lot of them
but in the end we have to be pragmatic and acknowledge there is very little we can do about it
Trump has showed it again by his stance toward Saoudi-Arabia
I don't agree with him, but at least he is open and honest about it, which none of his predecessors were
this Saoudi regime is dangerous as well, they've sent and financed imams to European mosques to preach hatred, we all know what were the consequences
in this country there is an undertone which has created Al Qaeda
at first they were even considered allies by the west to fight the Russians in Afghanistan
they are causing famine in Yemen with starvation for 85.000 children, but killing one reporter causes more outrage
yet the Saoudis are still considered western allies
we are powerless against evil all around this world
the only alternative is to protect ourselves within our own territories

I agree with everything you said. The point is that we must be wary and prepared. Should China go the way of Imperial Japan and catch us unprepared, this is what we would have to look forward to, just as, if Iranian and Saudi Arabian Fundamentalist Islam were to take over the west, we must look to their cultures to get a forewarning of our fate.

LeBrok
24-11-18, 23:07
Imperial Japan was simpler to judge. The give away was their aggression of neighbours, way before they attacked USA. Same with Germany, Italy or Soviet Union. They all started with smaller prey before moving to global war. The Modern China didn't. There are no indication of such plans either. Why should we worry about non existent problem?
To my knowledge poor China was more aggressive towards its neighbors and more cruel and controlling towards its citizens.

Angela
25-11-18, 01:45
Imperial Japan was simpler to judge. The give away was their aggression of neighbours, way before they attacked USA. Same with Germany, Italy or Soviet Union. They all started with smaller prey before moving to global war. The Modern China didn't. There are no indication of such plans either. Why should we worry about non existent problem?
To my knowledge poor China was more aggressive towards its neighbors and more cruel and controlling towards its citizens.

I think you're forgetting about Tibet, for one thing, and Taiwan, and the Muslim minorities, and the "Stans", and even, in the past, Russia itself. Plus, whatever its mythology, China didn't become a vast empire without aggression.

"Why this desire to recreate past glory? In a piece I published (http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/03/17/xi-jinping-the-illusion-of-greatness-party-congress/) recently in the New York Review of Books Daily, I argue that it’s part of Xi Jinping’s adoption of the “classic nationalist-authoritarian-traditionalist playbook.” Part of this is the obvious strategy of diverting attention away from current problems, such as a dangerously slowing economy (https://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=https://www.forbes.com/sites/stratfor/2013/07/23/the-end-of-the-chinese-economic-miracle/&refURL=&referrer=)."

"I argue in my book that there are strong echoes of these very idealized narratives that persist in China’s dealings with its neighbors today. China would like to be preeminent in its neighborhood. It would like to attain such a position through peaceful means, using its assumed powers of attraction. But especially because this was never a consistent reality in the past, one must be ready for the possibility that China is prepared to use non-peaceful means to attain its aims in the region, and indeed there are already signs suggesting preparations for just such a thing. See, for example, recent Chinese behavior in the South China Sea."

"China’s plan for “one belt, one road” is wholly native to the 21st century. The ambition to encircle India by land and sea; to create a financial and resource exchange system for infrastructure development engaging Central Asia, Europe, the Middle East and Africa; and to construct interlocking trade and security relationships that will block the American reach across the Pacific all are completely novel in Chinese and in global history. The Xi Jinping government may be designing the post-globalization pattern of managed trans-national spheres, and pioneering a financial and strategic role that few other countries seem even to envisage. China has no need to draw on any distant past for a template of its ambitions, attitudes, or enterprises."

"What happens when the inevitable challenges the exceptional? If China’s aggressive assertion of territorial claims leads to conflict again with its neighbors in the present-day, how will that be squared with the collective self-image of timeless pacifism? Will future wars be explained as a preemptive defense of inherent Chinese territory, as in the case of the border wars with India in the 1960s, or will they be intentionally and conveniently forgotten, like the Sino-Vietnamese War of 1979?"


China in the South China seas:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/06/26/china-south-china-sea-expansion-neighbors-nervous/711006002/

China vs India:
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/china/how-chinas-neighbors-view-it-beijings-friends-foes-and-frenemies/articleshow/60152031.cms

https://www.cfr.org/interactives/chinas-maritime-disputes?cid=otr-marketing_use-china_sea_InfoGuide#!/chinas-maritime-disputes?cid=otr-marketing_use-china_sea_InfoGuide

https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/legal-status-tibet

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-14533879

https://i.imgur.com/8GjqJ2c.png

LeBrok
25-11-18, 22:57
I think you're forgetting about Tibet, for one thing, and Taiwan, and the Muslim minorities, and the "Stans", and even, in the past, Russia itself. Plus, whatever its mythology, China didn't become a vast empire without aggression.

"Why this desire to recreate past glory? In a piece I published (http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/03/17/xi-jinping-the-illusion-of-greatness-party-congress/) recently in the New York Review of Books Daily, I argue that it’s part of Xi Jinping’s adoption of the “classic nationalist-authoritarian-traditionalist playbook.” Part of this is the obvious strategy of diverting attention away from current problems, such as a dangerously slowing economy (https://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=https://www.forbes.com/sites/stratfor/2013/07/23/the-end-of-the-chinese-economic-miracle/&refURL=&referrer=)."

"I argue in my book that there are strong echoes of these very idealized narratives that persist in China’s dealings with its neighbors today. China would like to be preeminent in its neighborhood. It would like to attain such a position through peaceful means, using its assumed powers of attraction. But especially because this was never a consistent reality in the past, one must be ready for the possibility that China is prepared to use non-peaceful means to attain its aims in the region, and indeed there are already signs suggesting preparations for just such a thing. See, for example, recent Chinese behavior in the South China Sea."

"China’s plan for “one belt, one road” is wholly native to the 21st century. The ambition to encircle India by land and sea; to create a financial and resource exchange system for infrastructure development engaging Central Asia, Europe, the Middle East and Africa; and to construct interlocking trade and security relationships that will block the American reach across the Pacific all are completely novel in Chinese and in global history. The Xi Jinping government may be designing the post-globalization pattern of managed trans-national spheres, and pioneering a financial and strategic role that few other countries seem even to envisage. China has no need to draw on any distant past for a template of its ambitions, attitudes, or enterprises."

"What happens when the inevitable challenges the exceptional? If China’s aggressive assertion of territorial claims leads to conflict again with its neighbors in the present-day, how will that be squared with the collective self-image of timeless pacifism? Will future wars be explained as a preemptive defense of inherent Chinese territory, as in the case of the border wars with India in the 1960s, or will they be intentionally and conveniently forgotten, like the Sino-Vietnamese War of 1979?"


China in the South China seas:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/06/26/china-south-china-sea-expansion-neighbors-nervous/711006002/

China vs India:
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/china/how-chinas-neighbors-view-it-beijings-friends-foes-and-frenemies/articleshow/60152031.cms

https://www.cfr.org/interactives/chinas-maritime-disputes?cid=otr-marketing_use-china_sea_InfoGuide#!/chinas-maritime-disputes?cid=otr-marketing_use-china_sea_InfoGuide

https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/legal-status-tibet

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-14533879

https://i.imgur.com/8GjqJ2c.png
Exactly my point, China was more aggressive and invasive when poor, and less aggressive since 90s when opened to capital and economic development.
About the first slot in above table. Recently we had a meeting of Duterte and She about cooperation and investments between China and Philippines, but no declaration of war. I'm not a fan of either "strong man", but a nice development for the region nevertheless.

Before 90s the list of China conflicts is rather long: South Korea/USA and the world, Vietnam, India, Russia, Taiwan/USA and of course the Tibet. In comparison, last 25 years is very peaceful for China and neighbors.

Angela
25-11-18, 23:12
Exactly my point, China was more aggressive and invasive when poor, and less aggressive since 90s when opened to capital and economic development.
About the first slot in above table. Recently we had a meeting of Duterte and She about cooperation and investments between China and Philippines, but no declaration of war. I'm not a fan of either "strong man", but a nice development for the region nevertheless.

Before 90s the list of China conflicts is rather long: South Korea/USA and the world, Vietnam, India, Russia, Taiwan/USA and of course the Tibet. In comparison, last 25 years is very peaceful for China and neighbors.

I suggest you read the links I provided. They are all about very recent events.

Plus, China was at its most expansive at its richest periods.

bicicleur
26-11-18, 11:16
I agree with everything you said. The point is that we must be wary and prepared. Should China go the way of Imperial Japan and catch us unprepared, this is what we would have to look forward to, just as, if Iranian and Saudi Arabian Fundamentalist Islam were to take over the west, we must look to their cultures to get a forewarning of our fate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
There are many candidates from all over the world.
I don't think China has the ambition to build a world empire by force, but that can change in future.
Certain fractions of fundamentalist Muslims actualy do have that ambition, but they are lacking the force as long as the west continues to put enough pressure on them.

martinmkp
26-11-18, 15:36
China is doing its work - to be an Empire again. Every little chinese childs knOws memorize their own severalthousand old poems. Do our three years olds perform Esops works? So why suddenly we are surprised the one billion people nation wishes to be the ruler of the world again?
Our task is to rceive the challenge - and defend our western values and style of life. And learn how tolive with China side by side. Because we and dying China will face new billions subsaharan African immigration to Eurasia in the 22nd Century. Maybe all this will be enriching to Europe as every attacks in the past, starting with Homo sapiens sapiens against our forefathers Neanderthals.
Take my words with humour - I am also too scared by chinese (Big brother) ownerships of VPN apps we are using on daily basis in the Far East.

bicicleur
26-11-18, 16:05
Chinese scientists are creating CRISPR babies.
A daring effort is under way to create the first children whose DNA has been tailored using gene editing.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612458/exclusive-chinese-scientists-are-creating-crispr-babies/?fbclid=IwAR3CCPFzvN2JiDXh8pZZed6ByAJKhs5TKKRnTHJI bXEBlWn04idgfUgVMko

they are going to use technology that is considered non-ethical in the west, and I don't see how we can prevent them from doing so

it is important to be more critical about what is ethical and what not
we must be sure our judgment is not clouded by lobbyists of all kinds or by political correctness
or we will be no match for China and the like

Angela
26-11-18, 16:42
I just read that in Sweden they have started inserting a microchip in the hand to pay for things, open doors etc.

This isn't the first time I have thought they're quite mad!

Have they no concept that such a chip could be used by the government to keep track of everything they do?

It's beyond me. Was skepticism as well as aggression bred out of them because all their warrior types went abroad? Or is it because these tiny groups on the periphery of Europe were mostly left alone and not very often subject to attempts at control by any government, not even their own?

Yet, even countries like Italy and Germany, certainly no strangers to governments which tried to control them, are remarkably accepting of government control over virtually every aspect of their lives.

Why is it only in the Anglo countries that there is at least in some a healthy distrust of too strong governments and the invasion of privacy?

Both "1984" and "Brave New World" should be brought back to the schools. They should throw in a lot of Jefferson too: "The best government is the least government".

William Tell
26-11-18, 16:57
I just read that in Sweden they have started inserting a microchip in the hand to pay for things, open doors etc.

This isn't the first time I have thought they're quite mad????

Have they no concept that such a chip could be used by the government to keep track of everything they do?

It's beyond me. Was independence as well as aggression bred out of them because all their warrior types went abroad? Or is it because these tiny groups on the periphery of Europe were mostly left alone and not subject to attempts at control by any government, not even their own?

Yet, even countries like Italy and Germany, certainly no strangers to governments which tried to control them, are remarkably accepting of government control over virtually every aspect of their lives.

Why is it only in the Anglo countries that there is at least in some a healthy distrust of too strong governments and the invasion of property?

Both "1984" and "Brave New World" should be taught in the schools. They should throw in a lot of Jefferson too: "The best government is the least government".

Swedes are authority-slaves, unfortunately. Too Teutonic and soulless, but of course being orderly isn't such a bad thing in the end.

Angela
26-11-18, 17:28
Swedes are authority-slaves, unfortunately. Too Teutonic and soulless, but of course being orderly isn't such a bad thing in the end.

You've just earned yourself an infraction. There is no insulting or t-rolling of ethnic groups permitted here.

Not a good way to start.

bicicleur
26-11-18, 17:56
I just read that in Sweden they have started inserting a microchip in the hand to pay for things, open doors etc.

This isn't the first time I have thought they're quite mad????

Have they no concept that such a chip could be used by the government to keep track of everything they do?

It's beyond me. Was independence as well as aggression bred out of them because all their warrior types went abroad? Or is it because these tiny groups on the periphery of Europe were mostly left alone and not subject to attempts at control by any government, not even their own?

Yet, even countries like Italy and Germany, certainly no strangers to governments which tried to control them, are remarkably accepting of government control over virtually every aspect of their lives.

Why is it only in the Anglo countries that there is at least in some a healthy distrust of too strong governments and the invasion of property?

Both "1984" and "Brave New World" should be taught in the schools. They should throw in a lot of Jefferson too: "The best government is the least government".

a cashless society is the dream of many governments, western European in the first place

I agree, it's an open door to Big Brother
in the long run, they'll replace money by a good or bad rating points, depending on your behaviour, which they'll monitor 24/7

markod
26-11-18, 19:06
China is doing its work - to be an Empire again. Every little chinese childs knOws memorize their own severalthousand old poems. Do our three years olds perform Esops works? So why suddenly we are surprised the one billion people nation wishes to be the ruler of the world again?
Our task is to rceive the challenge - and defend our western values and style of life. And learn how tolive with China side by side. Because we and dying China will face new billions subsaharan African immigration to Eurasia in the 22nd Century. Maybe all this will be enriching to Europe as every attacks in the past, starting with Homo sapiens sapiens against our forefathers Neanderthals.
Take my words with humour - I am also too scared by chinese (Big brother) ownerships of VPN apps we are using on daily basis in the Far East.


They Chinese don't need to do much empire building - the countries that they are primarily interested in are gravitating towards China anyway. If they can economically integrate geographically pivotal and resource-rich Russia and Iran that will be a problem for us, as it would entail a huge decline in influence and economic power. They might manage to do just this without firing a single bullet:

http://www.newagebd.com/files/records/news/201705/16319_168.jpg

bicicleur
26-11-18, 20:32
They Chinese don't need to do much empire building - the countries that they are primarily interested in are gravitating towards China anyway. If they can economically integrate geographically pivotal and resource-rich Russia and Iran that will be a problem for us, as it would entail a huge decline in influence and economic power. They might manage to do just this without firing a single bullet:
http://www.newagebd.com/files/records/news/201705/16319_168.jpg
Saoudi-Arabia is just as evil as Iran, and Erdogan is just as trustworthy as Putin.
But Saoudi-Arabia and Erdogan are allies and Iran and Putin enemies to the west.
That leaves opportunities for China.

hrvclv
27-11-18, 00:32
Yet, even countries like Italy and Germany, certainly no strangers to governments which tried to control them, are remarkably accepting of government control over virtually every aspect of their lives.

Why is it only in the Anglo countries that there is at least in some a healthy distrust of too strong governments and the invasion of property?

Both "1984" and "Brave New World" should be taught in the schools. They should throw in a lot of Jefferson too: "The best government is the least government".

It may have been true until very recently. I think things are currently changing, and rather dramatically so.

As long as democracy was seen as something better than what there had been before, as long as it meant perceptible social and economic progress ("Les trente glorieuses" - the thirty-year post-war boom), people were prepared to trust their leaders and let things roll on. Then it grew into a habit, and it took some time for people to react.

Now they are gradually becoming aware of the fact that "the state [as an institutionalized body of power] is the fascistic temptation of democracy" (L'état est la tentation fasciste de la démocratie - André Malraux). Once voted in, leaders pursue an agenda of their own, ignoring the aspirations and requests of the people who put them there. They stick to their crazy, suicidal immigration policies, to their suicidal international trade agreements, to their submissiveness to the EU's unelected body of tyrannical technocrats.

Consequences : at EU level, you get the Brexit, Salvini and Orban, the Visegrad group's growing resistance, etc... at state levels, you now have Merkel in trouble, and French people on the streets protesting against stifling tax reforms.

Fingers crossed. I doubt Macron will readily accept the idea that "the best government is the least government", but he may be learning things these days.

LeBrok
28-11-18, 05:46
I just read that in Sweden they have started inserting a microchip in the hand to pay for things, open doors etc.

This isn't the first time I have thought they're quite mad!

Have they no concept that such a chip could be used by the government to keep track of everything they do?

It's beyond me. Was skepticism as well as aggression bred out of them because all their warrior types went abroad? Or is it because these tiny groups on the periphery of Europe were mostly left alone and not very often subject to attempts at control by any government, not even their own?

Yet, even countries like Italy and Germany, certainly no strangers to governments which tried to control them, are remarkably accepting of government control over virtually every aspect of their lives.

Why is it only in the Anglo countries that there is at least in some a healthy distrust of too strong governments and the invasion of privacy?

Both "1984" and "Brave New World" should be brought back to the schools. They should throw in a lot of Jefferson too: "The best government is the least government".
Why would you do that if you can do the same with your phone and more? Seems like a story of one mad scientist or perhaps a fake one. But you know Swedes, so socialistic that they have to be crazy, right?

Anyway, the only cure against rampant policing of everybody is to make sure we elect smart and honest freedom loving people to run countries. Once we have tyrants, they will use all available technology to control society. And no amount of feet stomping or a civil war will change their minds.


Have they no concept that such a chip could be used by the government to keep track of everything they do?
So if you have a good democratic government, the chip under your skin (implanted at your will) is your convenience, nothing more.
If you have a tyrant, an obsessive and controlling government, you will have the chip under the skin implanted (by order), and AI watching you from camperas, all the time for his convenience.

LeBrok
28-11-18, 06:02
a cashless society is the dream of many governments, western European in the first place

I agree, it's an open door to Big Brother
in the long run, they'll replace money by a good or bad rating points, depending on your behaviour, which they'll monitor 24/7
Funny thing, I have one rather conservative friend with a big dose of conspiracy theorist in him. (You know, they keeping ordinary people stupid and poor for a reason.) Imagine this, he was the first adopter of a debit card. Simply by convenience. He hated to carry a bulky wallet, but now he could walk around with just one card for convenience in his pocket. I was making fun of him that it is not about convenience, but tipping for service. No cash, sorry, no tip. Well, at least back then when debit machines were not that smart.
Anyway, perhaps the simplest explanation is convenience, ease of use, comfort, faster way, technological progress, etc. Actually, western governments are the last adopters of such technologies. Simply, because bureaucrats hate more work. And any change requires initiative, learning and more work. Yak.

davef
28-11-18, 08:03
If anyone were to force me to wear a chip that monitors my behavior and awards points based on being an "outstanding citizen" I would curse them out, rip the chip out and flush it down a grimy toilet and make sure they see it spiral down the tube so these worthless piece of crap lowlifes know how I feel about them

martinmkp
28-11-18, 16:01
They Chinese don't need to do much empire building - the countries that they are primarily interested in are gravitating towards China anyway. If they can economically integrate geographically pivotal and resource-rich Russia and Iran that will be a problem for us, as it would entail a huge decline in influence and economic power. They might manage to do just this without firing a single bullet:

http://www.newagebd.com/files/records/news/201705/16319_168.jpg
The silk road - I think it is more idealistic concept in the head of Xi Jinping (Belt and Road Iniciative), not rality. Russia and China? Enemies who are together if any other enemy is in sight, they never truly cooperated and will not cooperate. If you look at your neat map - Central Asia was always strategic region for Russia - do you eally believe that they would give up it so easily for the sake of Silk road idea? I mean to give up in favour of China? I believe that Russia would never do it.

So to manage this dream, it is not so easy. Look at 16+China iniciative, for example. A lot of words with little results, if not taking into account Serbia and some other countries where China was active before launching the mentioned iniciative.

martinmkp
28-11-18, 16:05
If anyone were to force me to wear a chip that monitors my behavior and awards points based on being an "outstanding citizen" I would curse them out, rip the chip out and flush it down a grimy toilet and make sure they see it spiral down the tube so these worthless piece of crap lowlifes know how I feel about them
If I am not wrong, China had this concept partially in the past already - not in electronic way, of course, but as a concept of good citizen.

davef
28-11-18, 16:22
If I am not wrong, China had this concept partially in the past already - not in electronic way, of course, but as a concept of good citizen.
It's so ridiculous. I read they monitor things like driving over the speed limit. So if the US (as highly unlikely as it is) were to implement this, would driving just a mile over the speed limit impact my score? Would drinking alcohol impact my score, even if it's just a simple glass of wine at dinner? And to worsen things, it's essentially stamping a value on a person and forcing him/her to carry it around. That's completely demoralizing. I'm not against grading systems like what we see in schools, those are essential but this takes it too far

markod
28-11-18, 23:17
The silk road - I think it is more idealistic concept in the head of Xi Jinping (Belt and Road Iniciative), not rality. Russia and China? Enemies who are together if any other enemy is in sight, they never truly cooperated and will not cooperate. If you look at your neat map - Central Asia was always strategic region for Russia - do you eally believe that they would give up it so easily for the sake of Silk road idea? I mean to give up in favour of China? I believe that Russia would never do it.

So to manage this dream, it is not so easy. Look at 16+China iniciative, for example. A lot of words with little results, if not taking into account Serbia and some other countries where China was active before launching the mentioned iniciative.

Russian-China relations have never been better. It's a matter of realism in any case: Russia doesn't have the population or the political will to exploit its vast resources, let alone project power in Central Asia. Russia is not a rising power, but an alliance with China would prevent its decline. Its main adversaries are the EU/US.

Alcuin
29-11-18, 02:25
The Chinese are now buying farmland in France. Why shouldn't they, if we are stupid enough to let them do it?

I don't understand this either. French media seem happy to attack middle-class English folk for buying up France's 'precious' chateaux and raising house prices through the purchase of second homes, as indeed the English media seem happy to make reference to Russian and Saudi 'oil dollars' and 'blood money' buying up swathes of London. Yet there's never a mention of the Chinese government buying energy companies, farmland, housing projects, etc. Why?

Groninger
29-11-18, 07:57
Russian-China relations have never been better. It's a matter of realism in any case: Russia doesn't have the population or the political will to exploit its vast resources, let alone project power in Central Asia. Russia is not a rising power, but an alliance with China would prevent its decline. Its main adversaries are the EU/US.

The EU/US don't leave Russia another option but to form an alliance with China. How else should the Russians react to the expansion of NATO right to their border?

LABERIA
29-11-18, 08:20
The EU/US don't leave Russia another option but to form an alliance with China. How else should the Russians react to the expansion of NATO right to their border?

But even Russia don`t leave to EU and USA another option. You think that the end of the Cold War was the end of the war? No, it`s an inevitable fatality, Thucydides Trap is called.
"τοὺς Ἀθηναίους ἡγοῦμαι μεγάλους γιγνομένους καὶ φόβον παρέχοντας τοῖς Λακεδαιμονίοις ἀναγκἀσαι ἐς τὸ πολεμεῖν"
"What made war inevitable was the growth of Athenian power and the fear which this caused in Sparta."

Groninger
29-11-18, 08:58
But even Russia don`t leave to EU and USA another option. You think that the end of the Cold War was the end of the war? No, it`s an inevitable fatality, Thucydides Trap is called.
"τοὺς Ἀθηναίους ἡγοῦμαι μεγάλους γιγνομένους καὶ φόβον παρέχοντας τοῖς Λακεδαιμονίοις ἀναγκἀσαι ἐς τὸ πολεμεῖν"
"What made war inevitable was the growth of Athenian power and the fear which this caused in Sparta."

Well, the expansion of NATO into Warschau Pact territory was not inevitable, it was a political choice, as it was a choice for the West to get involved in the Ukraine and Georgia.

bicicleur
29-11-18, 09:42
Well, the expansion of NATO into Warschau Pact territory was not inevitable, it was a political choice, as it was a choice for the West to get involved in the Ukraine and Georgia.

I don't know about NATO, but some western politicians who should have known better were pretty naïve about the orange revolution at Maidan square.
Nevertheless if Saoudi-Arabia is goin to become a NATO member, I don't see why Ukraïne not.

hrvclv
29-11-18, 14:26
I don't understand this either. French media seem happy to attack middle-class English folk for buying up France's 'precious' chateaux and raising house prices through the purchase of second homes, as indeed the English media seem happy to make reference to Russian and Saudi 'oil dollars' and 'blood money' buying up swathes of London. Yet there's never a mention of the Chinese government buying energy companies, farmland, housing projects, etc. Why?

I am not aware of much complaining round here against British (or, for that matter, Dutch) people buying real estate in France. In fact it keeps prices from plummeting in remote rural areas, which is good news for those who sell.

As regards Chinese-owned farms, well, they currently distribute their produce locally. But the concern is that they might in future ship their production directly from the farm to China if demand there rises dramatically. Which would pose a risk for European food safety. Chinese reps are already buying significant quantities of timber, which goes straight to China.

bicicleur
29-11-18, 15:09
I am not aware of much complaining round here against British (or, for that matter, Dutch) people buying real estate in France. In fact it keeps prices from plummeting in remote rural areas, which is good news for those who sell.

As regards Chinese-owned farms, well, they currently distribute their produce locally. But the concern is that they might in future ship their production directly from the farm to China if demand there rises dramatically. Which would pose a risk for European food safety. Chinese reps are already buying significant quantities of timber, which goes straight to China.

are the Chinese buying farms in France?

LABERIA
29-11-18, 15:19
Well, the expansion of NATO into Warschau Pact territory was not inevitable, it was a political choice, as it was a choice for the West to get involved in the Ukraine and Georgia.
Excuse me, but what they should have done in your opinion, stay good and see that Russia surpassed the difficult moment and then return back stronger and not only recover everything that had lost but even see one day the Russian soldiers wash their boots on the Channel? The end of the Cold War means only the end of an episode of this clash between Russia and the West, not the end of the war per se.
Then, we must not forget that there was also an almost unanimous will to join EU and NATO, not only of the governments of the former member countries of the Warsaw Pact but also of the population of these countries who have always seen participation in these pacts(Warsaw and Comecon), not as an alliance but as an occupation by the Soviets.
However the principle is simple, if you do not attack them, they will attack you. There is no third option.

LeBrok
29-11-18, 22:37
Well, the expansion of NATO into Warschau Pact territory was not inevitable, it was a political choice, as it was a choice for the West to get involved in the Ukraine and Georgia. Countries can't enter NATO by their own will because they will anger Russia?!

Groninger
30-11-18, 22:08
Of course it is understandable the former Warschau Pact nations wanted to join NATO, but NATO should not have accepted them, especially in the case of the Baltic states; that has been a Peace of Weimar-like mistake.

CrazyDonkey
01-12-18, 03:18
It's a Devil's bargain (with Hell to pay). We'll enslave our people and put them to work for you, if you'll sell us your soul.

Minty
02-12-18, 18:32
Russian-China relations have never been better. It's a matter of realism in any case: Russia doesn't have the population or the political will to exploit its vast resources, let alone project power in Central Asia. Russia is not a rising power, but an alliance with China would prevent its decline. Its main adversaries are the EU/US.

Well, the Mainland Chinese, yes this is what we overseas-born Chinese called them, gave a chunk of land to the Russians. That piece of land has petrol. As a result, the Russians has made money from that. Yes, Russians do like to befriends with the Chinese. Not just the Mainland Chinese. I get a lot of approaches from them.

Minty
02-12-18, 18:45
Chinese scientists are creating CRISPR babies.
A daring effort is under way to create the first children whose DNA has been tailored using gene editing.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612458/exclusive-chinese-scientists-are-creating-crispr-babies/?fbclid=IwAR3CCPFzvN2JiDXh8pZZed6ByAJKhs5TKKRnTHJI bXEBlWn04idgfUgVMko

they are going to use technology that is considered non-ethical in the west, and I don't see how we can prevent them from doing so

it is important to be more critical about what is ethical and what not
we must be sure our judgment is not clouded by lobbyists of all kinds or by political correctness
or we will be no match for China and the like

This is indeed unethical. It is almost like in past when the Mainland Chinese invented gun powder but due to confucianism it was not used to rule the world. Then, the west used it to rule to world. The west had found formulas how to modify genetics prior to the Mainland Chinese scientist ability to do this, however, due to ethnical reasons, they did not go forward with this. It is as if though, communism destroyed Chinese traditional cultures and now it is just about power and money, but instead of ruled by the emperors, it is now replaced by communist rulers.

martinmkp
09-12-18, 01:22
Of course it is understandable the former Warschau Pact nations wanted to join NATO, but NATO should not have accepted them, especially in the case of the Baltic states; that has been a Peace of Weimar-like mistake.
This your thought - I would be very thankful if you could elaborate it more clearly - hope I did not understand you well.

martinmkp
09-12-18, 01:24
Well, the Mainland Chinese, yes this is what we overseas-born Chinese called them, gave a chunk of land to the Russians. That piece of land has petrol. As a result, the Russians has made money from that. Yes, Russians do like to befriends with the Chinese. Not just the Mainland Chinese. I get a lot of approaches from them.

Only for curiosity - what "chunk of land" do you refer to?

martinmkp
09-12-18, 01:32
Russian-China relations have never been better.
Yes, it is only the matter of realism, not the geopolitical reality and definitely not of long time trend. If you are on the side of selfishness and braking the rule of international law wherever possible, you easily find like minded partner. This is the reality of Russian - Chinese alliance.
beyond this topic and for a curiosity only - do you know the name of famous chinese personality son, who entered Prague with Wehrmacht in 1939?

Angela
04-01-19, 22:19
China's Professional Censors:

They've been doing a good job all along, since the new recruits have to be taught what things happened in the past, of which they didn't have a clue, so they can scrub them from the internet.

See:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/02/business/china-internet-censor.html

"Li Chengzhi had a lot to learn when he first got a job as a professional censor.Like many young people in China (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/06/technology/china-generation-blocked-internet.html?module=inline), the 24-year-old recent college graduate knew little about the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown (https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/04/world/asia/times-coverage-of-tiananmen-square-25-years-ago.html?module=inline). He had never heard of China’s most famous dissident, Liu Xiaobo (https://www.nytimes.com/topic/person/liu-xiaobo?module=inline), the Nobel Peace Prize laureate who died in custody (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/13/world/asia/liu-xiaobo-dead.html?module=inline) two years ago.
Now, after training, he knows what to look for — and what to block. He spends his hours scanning online content on behalf of Chinese media companies looking for anything that will provoke the government’s wrath. He knows how to spot code words that obliquely refer (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/14/world/asia/china-liu-xiaobo-censorship-internet.html?module=inline) to Chinese leaders (https://sinosphere.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/10/20/jiang-zemin-china-toad-xi-jinping/) and scandals, or the memes (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/19/fashion/china-social-media-weibo-wechat.html?module=inline) that touch (https://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/12/world/asia/12beast.html?module=inline) on subjects the Chinese government doesn’t want people to read about.
Mr. Li, who still has traces of youthful acne on his face, takes his job seriously. “It helps cleanse the online environment,” he said.
For Chinese companies, staying on the safe side of government censors (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/03/business/china-internet-censorship.html?module=inline) is a matter of life and death. Adding to the burden, the authorities demand that companies censor themselves, spurring them to hire thousands of people to police content."

Twitter and Facebook should send people over to get better training. :)

Salento
13-08-19, 20:35
From Hong Kong:


https://youtu.be/VYWuLoAYrgE


https://youtu.be/q9NJ7__nTSU

Hong Kong Protesters Wave American Flags, Sing USA National Anthem During Demonstrations

https://www.redstate.com/brandon_morse/2019/08/12/hong-kong-protesters-wave-american-flags-sing-national-anthem-demonstration/ (https://www.redstate.com/brandon_morse/2019/08/12/hong-kong-protesters-wave-american-flags-sing-national-anthem-demonstration/)

johen
18-08-19, 18:53
^

for starters, the people’s liberation army has been openly threatening to intervene to shut down the protests against lam’s government. and in cases where pro-government “triad” thugs, most likely based on the mainland, have shown up to assail protesters, the police have been conveniently absent. as everyone in hong kong knows, these extrajudicial beatings had to have been sanctioned by xi’s government. more ominously, xi may have already decided that the time for “one country, two systems” has passed. china, he might argue, can no longer tolerate a functioning quasi-democracy within its territory, despite the agreement it accepted as a condition of hong kong’s return to chinese sovereignty in 1997.

Most of people in the world and even in mainland china don’t know how CCP tortures people and who they were;


At the height of the frenzy of China’s Cultural Revolution, victims were eaten at macabre “flesh banquets”, but 50 years after the turmoil began, the Communist Party is suppressing remembrance and historical reckoning of the era and its excesses.
Launched by Mao in 1966 to topple his political enemies after the failure of the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution saw a decade of violence and destruction nationwide as party-led class conflict devolved into social chaos.
Teenaged Red Guards beat teachers to death for being “counter-revolutionaries” and family members denounced one another while factions clashed bitterly for control across the country.
-----
Scholars say the violence resulted from Wuxuan’s remote location, the ruthless regional Communist leader, poverty and bitter factionalism.
“In 10 years of catastrophe, Guangxi not only saw numerous deaths, they were also of appalling cruelty and viciousness,” the retired cadre wrote in an unpublished manuscript seen by AFP.
“There were beheadings, beatings, live burials, stonings, drownings, boilings, group slaughters, disembowellings, digging out hearts, livers, genitals, slicing off flesh, blowing up with dynamite, and more, with no method unused.”


at some high schools, students killed their principals in the school courtyard and then cooked and ate the bodies to celebrate a triumph over "counterrevolutionaries," the documents report. government-run cafeterias are said to have displayed bodies dangling on meat hooks and to have served human flesh to employees. "there are many varieties of cannibalism," declares one report, "and among them are these: killing someone and making a late dinner of it, slicing off the meat and having a big party, dividing up the flesh so each person takes a large chunk home to boil, roasting the liver and eating it for its medicinal properties, and so on."

History repeated again:

abstract records on human sacrifice have been revealed by the oracle-bone inscriptions of shang dynasty. human sacrifices carry special symbolic significance in shang dynasty for worshipping spirits. different methods of killing were used in worship rituals. as the inscription reveals, some words are used as the methods of killing of human beings in general. in the meantime, some special characters are used to refer to specific killing methods through analysis of the characters and structures of the language. the lecture will focus on
12 different methods of killing human sacrifice. the methods include beheading, splitting the body into halves, dismembering bodies, beating to death, chopping to death, extracting blood, burying alive, drowning, burning to death, boiling, corpse displaying, exposing body part to hot sun. with the analysis of the different methods of human sacrifice, it is easy to conclude that human sacrifice was a very common religious practice in shang dynasty. these practices reflect the cruelty of the rulers to their subjects and their piety towards the spirits they worship.

johen
23-08-19, 00:01
https://webapi.project-syndicate.org/library/435cfb7bf99defa33e3dfa54f8177ee1.2-1-large.1.jpg


The Communist Party of China would like the mainland Chinese population and the rest of the world to believe that the ongoing, sometimes violent protests in Hong Kong pose a threat of "terrorism." But the truth is that China has only itself to blame for pushing the city's idealistic youth into the streets once again.

Under the serious condition,


Trump is actively trying to break any country that refuses to bow to his demands. The American people are not so arrogant and intemperate, but some of Trump’s advisers surely are. National Security Adviser John Bolton and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, for example, both epitomize a uniquely arrogant approach to the world, amplified by religious fundamentalism in the case of Pompeo.

Bolton visited London recently to encourage the United Kingdom’s new prime minister, Boris Johnson, in his determination to leave the European Union with or without a Brexit deal. Trump and Bolton don’t give a whit about the UK, but they ardently hope the EU fails. Any enemy of the Union – such as Johnson, Italy’s Matteo Salvini, and Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán – is therefore a friend of Trump, Bolton, and Pompeo.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/

Messier 67
23-08-19, 23:28
I just read that in Sweden they have started inserting a microchip in the hand to pay for things, open doors etc.

This isn't the first time I have thought they're quite mad!

Have they no concept that such a chip could be used by the government to keep track of everything they do?

It's beyond me. Was skepticism as well as aggression bred out of them because all their warrior types went abroad? Or is it because these tiny groups on the periphery of Europe were mostly left alone and not very often subject to attempts at control by any government, not even their own?

Yet, even countries like Italy and Germany, certainly no strangers to governments which tried to control them, are remarkably accepting of government control over virtually every aspect of their lives.

Why is it only in the Anglo countries that there is at least in some a healthy distrust of too strong governments and the invasion of privacy?

Both "1984" and "Brave New World" should be brought back to the schools. They should throw in a lot of Jefferson too: "The best government is the least government".

Fahrenheit 451 was taught in my class in Jr. High. Got accustomed to 1984 with Libertarian (gold) forums. Jefferson is one of my favorites.

The only bad thing China is doing is exporting facial recognition software to the US. That is scary, like 'enemy of the state' scary. Whoever is in charge can easily bump off enemies.

If you think China is bad... well think again...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO5oJM8GjWA

There are many evil people in society, and if psycho-paths and social-paths get into places of influence, you want Libertarianism... not Totalitarianism.

Angela
24-08-19, 21:15
Fahrenheit 451 was taught in my class in Jr. High. Got accustomed to 1984 with Libertarian (gold) forums. Jefferson is one of my favorites.

The only bad thing China is doing is exporting facial recognition software to the US. That is scary, like 'enemy of the state' scary. Whoever is in charge can easily bump off enemies.

If you think China is bad... well think again...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO5oJM8GjWA

There are many evil people in society, and if psycho-paths and social-paths get into places of influence, you want Libertarianism... not Totalitarianism.

Very much agree. "The best government is the least government? Yes? :)

Björnsson
12-09-19, 06:40
I'm supportive of Tibet, Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan, but it's not my place to say. Tibet prefers Indian culture, whilst Hong Kong and Macau would rather be Singapore. Only Taiwan isn't actually Tibeto-Burman, at least not out of choice, but due to functioning as the rump state of the Republic of China, despite the fact that they're the Austronesian Urheimat. Why shouldn't Taipei get back on track by assembling an insular confederacy that is inclusive of Madagascar, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, with interests in New Zealand, Hawaii and Easter Island? If there is a Chinese Civil War II, I would not be surprised.

Tamakore
12-09-19, 13:51
Why shouldn't Taipei get back on track by assembling an insular confederacy that is inclusive of Madagascar, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, with interests in New Zealand, Hawaii and Easter Island?

Maybe because Taipei (and Taiwan) is dominated by non-Austronesian speaking people of Han Chinese origin who probably aren't interested in assembling a pan-Austronesian insular confederacy. Even if Taipei tried to do so, I doubt whether other Austronesian speaking countries would respond.

The Han Chinese tend to stereotype the Austronesian speaking indigenous minorities in Taiwan as musically talented and easy going, but lazy, much like the stereotyping of Polynesian minorities in places like New Zealand, Australia and Hawaii. So there's a problem of lack of respect.

Angela
26-09-19, 15:46
The world is going to stand by while China commits genocide.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/china-xinjiang-camps-mike-pompeos-criticism-as-video-challenges-claims-uighur-re-education-today-2019-09-23/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=74157730

Jovialis
09-10-19, 12:33
Those lickspittle NBA players are lucky they reside in the USA!


The NBA is not likely to face a debilitating series of protests from U.S. fans who may be angered by the league’s agonizingly cautious and wavering responses to Morey’s tweet. But the extreme attention the story has garnered does weaken the NBA’s efforts to cast itself as a force for positive social change. Commissioner Adam Silver’s public declaration of his “personal outrage” over the racist comments made by former L.A. Clippers owner Donald Sterling in 2014 (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2014/04/29/adam-silver-commissioner-opening-statement-donald-sterling/8467947/), and his pushback against the passing of the controversial transgender bathroom law in North Carolina in 2016 (https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article96628947.html) seem inconsistent now with a league that remains silent about China’s many human rights abuses.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/08/chinas-reaction-to-the-nba-is-the-wake-up-call-the-world-needed.html

Angela
09-10-19, 14:47
Those lickspittle NBA players are lucky they reside in the USA!

Typical "Woke" hypocrisy. It's disgusting.

Angela
09-10-19, 17:15
Hear, Hear!

"Razib (https://twitter.com/razibkhan)🥥 Khan‏Verified account @razibkhan (https://twitter.com/razibkhan) Oct 6 (https://twitter.com/razibkhan/status/1181064987013345282)More



from an American perspective, i think we need to spend a lot of time thinking about China if we want to be more than blind consumers.a lot of the culture war rage seems totally pointless parochial masturbation.the American unipolar moment is over."

Angela
12-10-19, 18:03
"The Chinese customer is always right" opinion piece by Razib Khan.

With over 1 billion potential customers, they can treat their people as they like and the west will say nothing.
https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/10/10/the-chinese-customer-is-always-right/

" Around the year 2000 many Americans had a view of the 21st-century where prosperity would transform the rest of the world into cultural clones of America. This would have resulted in universal particularisms and sensitivities. That is, the ascendency of post-modern thinking, and the rise of subjectivism would have been constrained by a common cultural framework directed and shaped by American and European elites. What is “problematic” here would be “problematic” there.https://i0.wp.com/www.gnxp.com/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/1984.jpeg?zoom=1.25&resize=182%2C272&is-pending-load=1#038;ssl=1 (https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B07YNCMYPY//geneexpressio-20)That has not happened. "

"But particular cultural understandings of what is right and proper have come to the foreground with more muscular robustness as the Enlightenment ideal of a universal shared reality fades."

Economic liberalization has not led to political liberalization in China or to the Enlightenment ideals, more's the pity. Whether it's genetics or culture, their ideals are not our ideals, and may never be, and that doesn't bode well for anyone who is or comes under their political control.

Dagne
17-10-19, 13:17
"The Chinese customer is always right" opinion piece by Razib Khan.

With over 1 billion potential customers, they can treat their people as they like and the west will say nothing.
https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/10/10/the-chinese-customer-is-always-right/

" Around the year 2000 many Americans had a view of the 21st-century where prosperity would transform the rest of the world into cultural clones of America. This would have resulted in universal particularisms and sensitivities. That is, the ascendency of post-modern thinking, and the rise of subjectivism would have been constrained by a common cultural framework directed and shaped by American and European elites. What is “problematic” here would be “problematic” there.https://i0.wp.com/www.gnxp.com/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/1984.jpeg?zoom=1.25&resize=182%2C272&is-pending-load=1#038;ssl=1 (https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B07YNCMYPY//geneexpressio-20)That has not happened. "

"But particular cultural understandings of what is right and proper have come to the foreground with more muscular robustness as the Enlightenment ideal of a universal shared reality fades."

Economic liberalization has not led to political liberalization in China or to the Enlightenment ideals, more's the pity. Whether it's genetics or culture, their ideals are not our ideals, and may never be, and that doesn't bode well for anyone who is or comes under their political control.








This is so sad, as it means that between the choice "truth" or "profits", more people are choosing "profits"
Moreover, for small nations like my homeland (less than 3 mln) it means that we have absolutely nothing against large consumer communities/countries in case of a conflict of interests.

Ailchu
17-10-19, 15:59
This is so sad, as it means that between the choice "truth" or "profits", more people are choosing "profits"
Moreover, for small nations like my homeland (less than 3 mln) it means that we have absolutely nothing against large consumer communities/countries in case of a conflict of interests.

Thats a reason why the EU is so important and needs to strengthen.

Jovialis
17-10-19, 16:51
Hear, Hear!

"Razib (https://twitter.com/razibkhan)������ Khan‏Verified account @razibkhan (https://twitter.com/razibkhan) Oct 6 (https://twitter.com/razibkhan/status/1181064987013345282)More



from an American perspective, i think we need to spend a lot of time thinking about China if we want to be more than blind consumers.a lot of the culture war rage seems totally pointless parochial masturbation.the American unipolar moment is over."



I bet in the future, when they look back on this time period, they will consider it to be similar to another Cold War. China is indeed the USA's greatest rival, that is creating another bi-polar world. The more and more, we relinquish our uni-polarity as the most powerful state; the sooner we will create a bi-polar/multi-polar world, that ultimately results in world war. The "American Century" of the 1900s has facilitated relatively more peace than previous times. That era is coming to an end.

Me and Razib share the same sentiments on American Unipolarity.

I wonder if China has a hand in subverting the United States, culturally. They are still a communist country, and perhaps they are inflaming the culture war. Perhaps that is why so many of our corporations and institutions who are servile to them, for profit, are pushing destructive attitudes. Which weaken our strength, and empower the Chinese communist government.

Wheal
18-10-19, 16:44
I think what most Americans in large towns don't realize, is how Chinese products have destroyed small town America. Our industry is gone, our mom and pop stores are gone, all because the markets are flooded with cheap goods in the big box stores like WalMart.

Angela
18-10-19, 17:44
Absolutely right. Even the town of 80,000 or so where we settled in America is now a ghost town of boarded up windows which is filling up with people on welfare moving in from New York because the rents are low.

What China and the big box stores didn't accomplish Amazon will...

Angela
21-11-19, 23:01
What has been revealed about what is happening to Muslims in Chinese detainment camps, and what we can see for ourselves about what is happening in Hong Kong should be an object lesson.

This is what China would have in store for any country it dominates or conquers.

Meanwhile, America tears itself apart with b.s. and who is "woke" enough. I could vomit.

bigsnake49
22-11-19, 17:21
Absolutely right. Even the town of 80,000 or so where we settled in America is now a ghost town of boarded up windows which is filling up with people on welfare moving in from New York because the rents are low.

What China and the big box stores didn't accomplish Amazon will...

It was Walmart first. It is the greed of the large corporations that put profit above country.

bigsnake49
22-11-19, 17:26
In the EU, Chinese companies are investing in infrastructure in order to move their products from the ports to the interior. It has raised concerns in the industrial north of the continent. That's what happens when you think of the Southern European countries only as markets and you let them in the EU only because you want duty-free access to their markets.

Angela
22-11-19, 18:23
In the EU, Chinese companies are investing in infrastructure in order to move their products from the ports to the interior. It has raised concerns in the industrial north of the continent. That's what happens when you think of the Southern European countries only as markets and you let them in the EU only because you want duty-free access to their markets.

I could not agree more.

23-11-19, 04:37
It was Walmart first. It is the greed of the large corporations that put profit above country.

Let's be honest. We all put our own profit first. The last time you sold a car or your house, or some more minor item online, did you look up the market rate to see the maximum you could get for the item? Of course you did! Don't expect more from companies than you would do yourself.

johen
28-01-20, 20:53
An outbreak of a new coronavirus that began in the Chinese city of Wuhan has already
infected (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/28/world/asia/china-coronavirus.html) over 4,000 people – mostly in China, but also in several other countries, from Thailand to France to the United States – and killed more than 100. Given China’s history of disease outbreaks – including of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) and African swine fever (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/17/business/china-pigs-african-swine-fever.html) – and officials’ apparent awareness (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/25/world/asia/china-xi-warnings.html) of the need to strengthen their capacity to address “major risks,” how could this happen?

It should be no surprise that history is repeating itself in China. To maintain its authority, the Communist Party of China must keep the public convinced that everything is going according to plan. That means carrying out systemic cover-ups of scandals and deficiencies that may reflect poorly upon the CPC’s leadership, instead of doing what is necessary to respond.
This pathological secrecy hobbles the authorities’ capacity to respond quickly to epidemics. The SARS epidemic of 2002-03 could have been contained much sooner had Chinese officials, including the health minister, not deliberately concealed information from the public. Once proper disease-control and prevention measures were implemented (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51221394), SARS was contained within months.
Yet China seems not to have learned its lesson. Although there are important differences between today’s coronavirus epidemic and the SARS outbreak – including far greater technological capacity to monitor disease – they may have the CPS’s habit of cover-ups in common.
To be sure, at first glance, China’s government has appeared to be more forthcoming about the latest outbreak. But, although the first case was reported on December 8, the Wuhan municipal health commission didn’t issue an official notice until several weeks later (https://thediplomat.com/2020/01/wuhan-coronavirus-china-plays-the-blame-game/). And, since then, Wuhan officials have downplayed the seriousness of the disease and deliberately sought to suppress news coverage.
That notice (http://wjw.wuhan.gov.cn/front/web/showDetail/2019123108989) maintained that there was no evidence that the new illness could be transmitted among humans, and claimed that no health-care workers had been infected. The commission repeated these claims on January 5, though 59 cases had been confirmed by then. Even after the first death was reported on January 11, the commission continued to insist that there was no evidence that it could be transmitted among humans or that health-care workers had been affected.


Throughout this critical period, there was little news coverage of the outbreak. Chinese censors worked diligently to remove references to the outbreak from the public sphere, which is far easier today than it was during the SARS epidemic, thanks to the government’s dramatically tighter control over the Internet, media, and civil society. Police have harassed (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/22/health/virus-corona.html) people for “spreading rumors” about the disease.
According to one study (https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/KCKG06eibDBK8Di1C4SM1g), references to the outbreak on WeChat – a popular Chinese messaging, social media, and mobile-payment app – spiked between December 30 and January 4, around the time when the Wuhan municipal health commission first acknowledged the outbreak. But mentions of the disease subsequently plummeted.
References to the new coronavirus rose slightly on January 11, when the first death was reported, but then quickly disappeared again. It was only after January 20 – following reports of 136 new cases in Wuhan, as well as cases in Beijing and Guangdong – that the government rolled back its censorship efforts. Mentions of coronavirus exploded.
Yet again, the Chinese government’s attempts to protect its image proved costly, because they undermined initial containment efforts. The authorities have since switched gears, and their strategy now appears to be to show how seriously the government is taking the disease by imposing drastic measures: a blanket travel ban on Wuhan and neighboring cities in Hubei province, which together have a population of 35 million.
At this point, it is unclear whether and to what extent these steps are necessary or effective. What is clear is that China’s initial mishandling of the coronavirus outbreak means that thousands will be infected, hundreds may die, and the economy, already weakened by debt and the trade war, will take another hit.
But perhaps the most tragic part of this story is that there is little reason to hope that next time will be different. The survival of the one-party state depends on secrecy, media suppression, and constraints on civil liberties. So, even as Chinese President Xi Jinping demands (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/25/world/asia/china-xi-warnings.html) that the government increase its capacity to handle “major risks,” China will continue to undermine its own – and the world’s – safety, in order to bolster the CPC’s authority.
When China’s leaders finally declare victory against the current outbreak, they will undoubtedly credit the CPC’s leadership. But the truth is just the opposite: the party is again responsible for this calamity.

However, another article today


Since he was elected US president, Donald Trump has done almost everything standard economic wisdom regards as heresy. He has erected trade barriers and stoked uncertainty with threats of further tariffs. He has blackmailed private businesses. He has eased prudential standards for banks. He has time and again attacked the Federal Reserve for policy not to his liking. He increased the budget deficit even as the economy was nearing full capacity. On a policymaker’s Don’t Do list, Trump ticks many more boxes than any other post-war US president.

so, what is a difference?

Ailchu
28-01-20, 21:59
also what about that nice deal that the U.S just made with israel and palestine? palestine wasn't even there when it was made lol. all the regions with with israeli settlements go to israel. here from trumps twitter. i had to laugh when i saw this. the sad part is, that right now it doesn't look much better.

"This is what a future state of Palestine can look like, witha capital in parts of east Jerusalem."
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EPY2upzX0Akk14R.jpg
judging the chinese governement but ignoring that some people also here in the west would like to adopt similar practices, but they don't want to admit it.

johen
26-02-20, 17:50
Did the chinese communist party say just one word, “sorry” for coronavirus?

The selfishness of capitalism made a beast and feed it stronger and stronger. Whenever I see china now, it always reminds me of steppe people, especailly canibalist seima turbino which would steal tin technology and dominate whole eurasia and maybe with steppe disease. As J. Soros said tons of times, the other countries should be integrated. But WHAT DID the Trump administration do?

People really don’t know real china history. The blatant chinese communist party are even selling confucius whole world. This party is nothing but an extension of last Qing dynasty in china, which wiped out almost whole traditional chinese culture for 300 years. They failed to remove one tradition, foot binding. Culture, not genetics, means people’s real identity. (Same thing happened in Mughal empire in India.) There is nothing without cause:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8db94cdc7fd5077107570095e5a59b09.webp

This kind of history repeated and repeated in China since Xia or Shang 1,500bc where the canibalist seima turbino and karashuk culture entered and maybe with “ANCIENT” canibalism marker Ydna Q with pyramid culture.


Sanping Chen investigates several foundational aspects of Chinese culture during this period, including the legendary unicorn and the fabled heroine Mulan, to determine the origin and development of the lore. His meticulous research yields surprising results. For instance, he finds that the character Mulan is not of Chinese origin and that Central Asian influences are to be found in language, religion, governance, and other fundamental characteristics of Chinese culture. As Victor Mair writes in the Foreword, "While not everyone will acquiesce in the entirety of Dr. Chen's findings, no reputable scholar can afford to ignore them with impunity."
These "foreign"-origin elements were largely the legacy of the Tuoba, whose descendants in fact dominated China's political and cultural stage for nearly a millennium. Long before the Mongols, the Tuoba set a precedent for "using the civilized to rule the civilized" by attracting a large number of sedentary Central Asians to East Asia. This not only added a strong pre-Islamic Iranian layer to the contemporary Sinitic culture but also commenced China's golden age under the cosmopolitan Tang dynasty, whose nominally "Chinese" ruling house is revealed by Chen to be the biological and cultural heir of the Tuoba.
https://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/14969.html

johen
07-03-20, 08:51
Did the chinese communist party say just one word, “sorry” for wuhan virus?


"Bonnie Holstad holds a sign explaining concern for her husband, Ken Holstad, who is a resident at Life Care Center of Kirkland, the long-term care facility linked to the two of three confirmed coronavirus cases in the state, in Kirkland, Washington, U.S. March 1, 2020. REUTERS/David Ryder"


https://tribkcpq.files.wordpress.com/2020/03/hypatia-h_68330c93210f0dddf73bd4059d7f0520-h_91b0190d1cc543036979c5eecd2af93c.jpg?quality=85&strip=all&w=770&h=433

https://q13fox.com/2020/03/02/her-husband-is-a-patient-at-lifecare-center-in-kirkland-and-she-wants-answers/



johen
12-03-20, 19:44
Did the chinese communist party say just one word, “sorry,” for coronavirus?

The selfishness of capitalism made a beast and feed it stronger and stronger. Whenever I see china now, it always reminds me of steppe people, especailly canibalist seima turbino which would steal tin technology and dominate whole eurasia and maybe with steppe disease. As J. Soros said tons of times, the other countries should be integrated. But WHAT DID the Trump administration do?

People really don’t know real china history. The blatant chinese communist party are even selling confucius whole world. This party is nothing but an extension of last Qing dynasty in china, which wiped out almost whole traditional chinese culture for 300 years. They failed to remove one tradition, foot binding. Culture, not genetics, means people’s real identity. (Same thing happened in Mughal empire in India.) There is nothing without cause:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8db94cdc7fd5077107570095e5a59b09.webp

This kind of history repeated and repeated in China since Xia or Shang 1,500bc where the canibalist seima turbino and karashuk culture entered and maybe with “ANCIENT” canibalism marker Ydna Q with pyramid culture.


https://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/14969.html

Now, they had a say.

"A Chinese government spokesman said Thursday that "it might be US Army who brought the epidemic to Wuhan," pushing one of several popular coronavirus conspiracy theories in China. "

Angela
13-03-20, 02:36
Anyone who would believe that even for a fraction of a second is mentally deficient.

Palermo Trapani
21-03-20, 23:05
In the EU, Chinese companies are investing in infrastructure in order to move their products from the ports to the interior. It has raised concerns in the industrial north of the continent. That's what happens when you think of the Southern European countries only as markets and you let them in the EU only because you want duty-free access to their markets.

Well I have always thought this was true, the EU was a project for German economic domination over Europe, French as well. England being not connected to the Continent via land Mass correctly saw the EU as an Institution with leaders who made laws and regulations but were not accountable to the people of England, hence Brexit. This Covid-19 virus is going to cause a re-calibration of this Globalist Free Trade Economic Bureaucrats and the alliance with these open border NGO, UN, Marxist types who don't believe in National borders. Borders matter, the ability to produce key goods internally and have agreements with countries that you cant trust (Communist China aint one of them) matter. If you want to see how the EU, Globalist Free Trade and Germany worked together with respect to the Italian Clothing and Shoe industry, which was largely small family owned businesses of 100 employees or less, go read the recent article in the NY Times of all places. It is an Eye opener. The Readers digest version is this. In the 1990's Italian Shoe and Clothing Mfg. would go to the Shoe and Clothing shows in Milan and Turin to display their products. Chinese vendors would come every year and just take pictures. Well within a short time, the Chinese started mfg Italian style shoes and cloths. The German Companies, under this Globalist Free Trade model, started buying from Chinese Companies, which have significant State Ownership. Thus, they could undercut the Italian products and what happened, all the Italian Companies went bankrupt. Well the Irony is the EU made more and more deals with China and China was allowed to come in and buy are the idle Italian Companies. Next, the Chinese Companies claimed the Italians don't work well with the Chinese Mgt Style and business culture and they asked the EU to allow or dictate to Italy for hundreds of thousands of Chinese to get EU and Italian work permits so what you have now is Chinese owned Shoe and Clothing stores, with Chinese workers, mfg cloths and shoes with Made in Italy being sold to Germany and the rest of Europe.

So people wonder why there is a significant amount of people who want to restore National sovereignty and re-calibrate the Free Trade Global Supply Chain Model. When the USA entered WW2 on 8 December 1941, FDR could look across the USA and see the ability to produce anything the USA needed to fight 2 Wars on 2 Continents. Within a short period of time, the USA became the arsenal of democracy. Today with the COVID-19, we are dependent on Communist China for most of our medical equipment, supplies and pharmaceuticals. This needs to change asap.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/05/business/italy-china-far-right.html

Yetos
21-03-20, 23:49
Well I have always thought this was true, the EU was a project for German economic domination over Europe, French as well. England being not connected to the Continent via land Mass correctly saw the EU as an Institution with leaders who made laws and regulations but were not accountable to the people of England, hence Brexit. This Covid-19 virus is going to cause a re-calibration of this Globalist Free Trade Economic Bureaucrats and the alliance with these open border NGO, UN, Marxist types who don't believe in National borders. Borders matter, the ability to produce key goods internally and have agreements with countries that you cant trust (Communist China aint one of them) matter. If you want to see how the EU, Globalist Free Trade and Germany worked together with respect to the Italian Clothing and Shoe industry, which was largely small family owned businesses of 100 employees or less, go read the recent article in the NY Times of all places. It is an Eye opener. The Readers digest version is this. In the 1990's Italian Shoe and Clothing Mfg. would go to the Shoe and Clothing shows in Milan and Turin to display their products. Chinese vendors would come every year and just take pictures. Well within a short time, the Chinese started mfg Italian style shoes and cloths. The German Companies, under this Globalist Free Trade model, started buying from Chinese Companies, which have significant State Ownership. Thus, they could undercut the Italian products and what happened, all the Italian Companies went bankrupt. Well the Irony is the EU made more and more deals with China and China was allowed to come in and buy are the idle Italian Companies. Next, the Chinese Companies claimed the Italians don't work well with the Chinese Mgt Style and business culture and they asked the EU to allow or dictate to Italy for hundreds of thousands of Chinese to get EU and Italian work permits so what you have now is Chinese owned Shoe and Clothing stores, with Chinese workers, mfg cloths and shoes with Made in Italy being sold to Germany and the rest of Europe.

So people wonder why there is a significant amount of people who want to restore National sovereignty and re-calibrate the Free Trade Global Supply Chain Model. When the USA entered WW2 on 8 December 1941, FDR could look across the USA and see the ability to produce anything the USA needed to fight 2 Wars on 2 Continents. Within a short period of time, the USA became the arsenal of democracy. Today with the COVID-19, we are dependent on Communist China for most of our medical equipment, supplies and pharmaceuticals. This needs to change asap.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/05/business/italy-china-far-right.html

USA is the dumpest country after 1950's
Following anarchocapitalism, they build China, when was last Nike produce in USA?

Europe on the other hand until end of 1980's was more conservative and progressive,
not only pass the WW2 but manage to make miracles,
After 1990's enter the Chicago economical models in Europe, and that BANG Europe's economy for a short of time but boom it after
Europe manage to handle hundrends millions of Behind iron curtain countries, import of poverty, and stabilize and give them future,
That is like USA opens border to 2 times central America+Mexico , making them United states and allow free pass,

As for Britain, it was always half Europe, half commonwealth,
But was industrial a lot,
WW2 change the markets, USA replace Britain on markets, Africa Asia etc where 'liberated' sudenly,

as for Italy is another case,
the best cement in Europe is in Greece (natural puzzolana) and in Italy (if they put puzzolana), the biggest Greek factory was sold to Italy, and then Italians sold it to Swiss/France,
Greek railway belong to Italian corp, as most Balkan railway,
the first Greek factory on white machines (washing machines, friges etc) not only sold to Italy, but also stop production in Greece,
That is choices that happens after EU adopted the USA chicago models of economy, ( I called it anarchocapitalism)

Communistic china is the most succesfull country in Capitalistic war, due to free capital transfer system of Chicago school, USA system.

take a look at Nokia phones history, the pride of Finland.

Palermo Trapani
22-03-20, 01:34
USA is the dumpest country after 1950's
Following anarchocapitalism, they build China, when was last Nike produce in USA?

Europe on the other hand until end of 1980's was more conservative and progressive,
not only pass the WW2 but manage to make miracles,
After 1990's enter the Chicago economical models in Europe, and that BANG Europe's economy for a short of time but boom it after
Europe manage to handle hundrends millions of Behind iron curtain countries, import of poverty, and stabilize and give them future,
That is like USA opens border to 2 times central America+Mexico , making them United states and allow free pass,

As for Britain, it was always half Europe, half commonwealth,
But was industrial a lot,
WW2 change the markets, USA replace Britain on markets, Africa Asia etc where 'liberated' sudenly,

as for Italy is another case,
the best cement in Europe is in Greece (natural puzzolana) and in Italy (if they put puzzolana), the biggest Greek factory was sold to Italy, and then Italians sold it to Swiss/France,
Greek railway belong to Italian corp, as most Balkan railway,
the first Greek factory on white machines (washing machines, friges etc) not only sold to Italy, but also stop production in Greece,
That is choices that happens after EU adopted the USA chicago models of economy, ( I called it anarchocapitalism)

Communistic china is the most succesfull country in Capitalistic war, due to free capital transfer system of Chicago school, USA system.

take a look at Nokia phones history, the pride of Finland.

I am not sure the Free Trade model originated in the USA, yes many American Universities taught it, many Politicians (both parties) pushed it. It started with Bush 1 with GATT and allowing China status in the WTO, Clinton pushed it further signed NAFTA and further moved along with China, Bush 2 signed the order giving them same status has European Countries in terms of Trade and Obama continued it, was pushing for TARP. Trump was against it, Hillary was for it and she only changed when Bernie on her left flank called her out on it. Had she won the election with no significant challenge, the USA would be further intangled with China. So yes, the USA was part of this Globalist Free Trade economic model, but that does not mean every American supported it. I remember the 1992 election debate with Bush 1, Clinton and Perot. While I did not vote for Perot (I voted for Bush 1, despite the fact I did not care for him as he did not turn out to be like Reagan who I did like) his famous quote about this Globalist Free Trade economic model that both Bush and Clinton and many US Corporations were pushing would result in a "great sucking sound of US jobs leaving the country". Well the ole Crazy Perot was correct. And to be fair there were people on the right and left who were both against this model. China targets strategic firms in which outside investors can't own any stock. These companies are usually 50% state owned and 50% Private Equity with Chinese Investors. How does a US Company compete against that model, the Chinese Government can subsidize the cost of production so that these Chinese Firms can charge prices that competitors can't. What is going on with China is not Free and fair trade, in my view.

I plan on voting for Trump, regardless of who wins in November, the USA needs to re-calibrate its Trade agreements and remove its dependency on critical medical equipment, supplies and pharmaceuticals from China. Do what you have to do, put in Investment tax credits, R&D Tax credits, like the USA use to have in Puerto Rico which 25-30 years ago, many pharmaceuticals were manufactured there.

Yetos
22-03-20, 09:38
@ Trapani

we vote, the ones who care and have results for the country,
Not according Foreign affairs,