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kuzmosi
17-11-18, 16:06
How is it possible? The last common ancestor of the CTS9320 families lived 2900 years ago at the Dawn of the Iron Age. He was a contemporary of Homer. I don't know where he lived, but his descendants lived today in the Balkans, Central and East Europe, Germany and the British Isles. And they have a strong presence in Sweden and Norway.

From YSEQ:

E-Y21945. only norwegian members. Formed 2800 ybp. TMRCA: 550 ybp.
E-BY4223. norwegian and slovakian. Formed: 1950 ybp. TMRCA: 1350 ybp.
E-CTS9320*. separated swedish sample. TMRCA: 2900 ybp.

and more from FtDNA CTS9320 project:

Sahlin from Sweden, BY4526
Shellberg from Sweden: BY4543
Eriksson and Engelin from Sweden, Z38456 TMRCA: 1700 ybp.

Fact: Most of the CTS9320 subclades has scandinavian members. I think it means, CTS9320 was in Scandinavia before the Germanic expansion. Maybe CTS9320 clans were one of the minor, but basic haplogroup of germanic expansion. So they could go to Eastern and Central Europe, even Balkans and Italy with the goths, gepids or other eastern germanic tribe. And of course later to the British Isles.

Or am I wrong?

rafc
20-11-18, 23:22
Nevermind this.

kuzmosi
21-11-18, 13:41
I don't understand.

Aspar
18-01-19, 16:24
Imo CTS9320 is linked with the Urnfield culture and more specifically, it's Eastern most extension, the Gava culture:
https://i.postimg.cc/MTqqCvgp/zBNyA.png (https://postimg.cc/R3skfVMk)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gáva-Holigrady_culture

As such, it's star like expansion is easily explainable with the expansion of the Urnfield culture in all directions, including the Nordic space as well!
It's said that the Urnfield culture was highly militaristic and war-like and it's expansion was most probably the reason for the Bronze age collapse in Europe!

kuzmosi
21-01-19, 11:27
You position is conceivable. Maybe it was the true. Coincides with the expansion of CTS9320. 2900 ybp (900 BC)

But CTS9320 are found in the Eastern territories too. Siognificant in the Balkans and can be found Turkey, Georgia, Russia, Ukraina.

Another possible origin, which is also good in time, is the Pre-Scythian (earleir: Thraco-cimmerian) origin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians

When the scythians arrived from east to the Pontic steppe, a part of the pre-scythians go west, Hungary and more west and became a part of the Hallstatt culture. Other part crossed the Danube and became thracians, and the third part stay at home under scythian rule, and became scythian.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS9320/

The almost complete lack of CTS9320 from Hispania and France is striking. I don't know why.

But even if Urnfield or Pre-scythian is the origin, there is a strong scandinavian CTS9320 group in the heart of the Nordic Bronze Age culture, and I can't explain that.

Aspar
22-01-19, 21:02
You position is conceivable. Maybe it was the true. Coincides with the expansion of CTS9320. 2900 ybp (900 BC)

But CTS9320 are found in the Eastern territories too. Siognificant in the Balkans and can be found Turkey, Georgia, Russia, Ukraina.

Another possible origin, which is also good in time, is the Pre-Scythian (earleir: Thraco-cimmerian) origin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians

When the scythians arrived from east to the Pontic steppe, a part of the pre-scythians go west, Hungary and more west and became a part of the Hallstatt culture. Other part crossed the Danube and became thracians, and the third part stay at home under scythian rule, and became scythian.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS9320/

The almost complete lack of CTS9320 from Hispania and France is striking. I don't know why.

But even if Urnfield or Pre-scythian is the origin, there is a strong scandinavian CTS9320 group in the heart of the Nordic Bronze Age culture, and I can't explain that.

I am reluctant to place the origin of CTS9320 more to the east, or to assume pre-Scythian origin as you say for couple of reasons!
First, looking at the older samples and subclades, upstream of CTS9320 and parallel subclades of CTS9320, those I can find on the YFULL tree and the e-m35 project, I can see there is a sample from Italy and Iraq that are Z5016*!
A subclade downstream of Z5016, Y138701, with entirely Iberian distribution that consists mostly of Portuguese samples as seen on the E-M35 project!
SNP upstream of CTS9320, CTS6377 (TMRCA 3600 ybp), with one positive Bulgarian but CTS9320-!
A Portuguese negative for CTS6377 but positive for Y3762 (TMRCA 3600 ybp), which is SNP upstream of CTS6377, which in turn is a parallel to Y138701!
So basically, the father subclade of CTS9320, CTS6377 is found in the Balkans, in a Bulgarian who is CTS9320-.
Than, we have a Portuguese who is CTS6377-, but Y3762+, which basically means a brother subclade of CTS6377, as seen on the YFULL tree!
Therefore, the thesis that the origin of CTS9320 is more to the west than the proto-Scythian homeland, has more weight!
If we take as a middle point on the card of Europe, the place between Bulgaria and Portugal, than we come up with Switzerland, Southern Germany and Austria!
CTS9320 was formed 3600 ybp but its TMRCA is much younger, 2900 ybp!
3600 ybp in Central Europe is in full swing the Tumulus culture.
https://i.postimg.cc/Qt2nZT4j/12d207ff3309b2ce1dc5cff236d87228.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
It seems that Central Europe was the point where many E-V13 subclades thrived and spread across Europe.
No wonder that in Western Europe can be found some of the oldest subclades downstream of E-V13!
However, even if assume that CTS9320 originated in Central Europe, it's boom was in Eastern Europe, where it migrated to from Central Europe, hence the younger TMRCA, or as I said in my previous post, the Gava culture!
Because the center of the Gava culture was in Eastern Europe, no wonder that today CTS9320 is more diverse and numerical there!
Obviously, many CTS9320 later on spread to other neighboring places, for example, to the neighboring Basarabi culture, and from there it came in contact with the Scythians even and some even found their way to Scandinavia!
https://i.postimg.cc/q7wXJC18/Eastern-and-Central-Europe-around-750-BC.png (https://postimages.org/)

kuzmosi
24-01-19, 21:07
I don't know can you see the CTS9320 project results. I summarized. At this time we have:
1.) CTS9320+, but negative all known downstream: 2 bulgarian, 1 turkish (from European Turkey/Thracia)
2.) BY20093: 1 from Poland, 1 Albania, 1 Montrenegro
3.) S19928: 2 from Italy (Bergamo and Trentino), 1 Poland, 1 Hungary, 1 Romania, 1 USA
4.) Z37530: 3 Poland, 2 Sweden, 2 Hungary, 1 Bulgaria, 1 Serbia, 1 Germany, 1 Ukraina
5.) Z17107: 2 USA (maybe irish), 1 Russia (Black Sea coast), 3 Hungary, 2 Sweden, 3 Bulgaria, 13 Albania and Kosovo, 1 Turkey (originally greek Thracia) 1 Macedonia, 1 Italy (Sicily) 2 Croatia, 2 Ukraina, 1 Poland, 1 Montenegro
6.) Z17264: 4 Italy, 3 Bulgaria, 1 Ireland, 2 England, 1 Germany, 1 Switzerland, 1 Czech, 1 Greece, 3 USA, 4 Norvegia, 1 Croatia
7.) Z16988: 1 Bulgaria, 3 Croatia, 1 Slovenia, 2 Bosnia, 2 France, 10 England, 1 Switzerland, 6 Germany, 3 USA, 1 Latvia, 1 Romania, 1 Albania, 2 Norvegia, 1 Slovakia, 1 Serbia, 1 Greece

and CTS9320+ but need deeper analysys: 3 Hungary, 3 Germany, 1 Serbia, 2 Romania, 1 Turkey, 1 Poland, 1 Russia, 1 Albania, 1 Bulgaria

So as I said: We have a strong germanic group and we have presence all over in the Balkan. We have many East European and Scandinavian, but just 2 from France and no one from Spain and Portugal.

However you may be right: Our direct paternal ancestor probably lived in the Unetice culture and later in the Tumulus. But the Tumulus culture has never reached the Gava culture, and the Urnfield reached only the western part of Hungary. They just traded with Gava.

The Gava is not a subtype of the Urnfield. It evolved from the early BA local cultures, which was powered by the appearence of a southern and eastern armed large livestock group. They stopped earlier the Tumulus groups and later the Urnfield. It may have settled in a Tumulus or Urnfield man in the Gava area, and he was the ancestor of all the CTS9320 people. We speak only one man who was a contemporary of Homer, lived 900 BC, somewhere today Romania, Moldova or Ukraina, maybe East Hungary. And - as you said - later his descendants spread in Europe with the Pre-scythians. (Thracians and Hallstatt)

But why the CTS9320 is missing south of the Pyrenees? And why is very rare in France? Both have strong Celtic roots.

Aspar
25-01-19, 14:42
Well, I am looking at the E-M35 project results at the moment and I can see one CTS9320 from Spain.
I can see that he has a Spanish name and I believe that he is a native Spaniard!
So, CTS9320 can be found in Western Europe although much less than in Eastern Europe, as I said in my previous post, CTS9320 looks like it had it's boom in Eastern Europe and unlike some older subclades under V13 like S7461, it is not so common in Western Europe!
By the way, people in Scandinavia are wealthy so they can afford to spend a lot of money to test themselves unlike people from Eastern or Southern Europe, so obviously there will be more probability CTS9320 to be found there than Spain for example!
Looking at the YFULL tree at the moment, I can also see an Irishman CTS9320>Z25461>BY4518, who shares this SNP with a Polish from Southern Poland, TMRCA 2000ybp!
So yes, CTS9320 can be found in other parts in Western Europe, but nevertheless, it's clearly an overwhelmingly Eastern European branch!

kuzmosi
25-01-19, 22:22
I don't want to offend anyone, but Albania and Kosovo aren't wealthy, nonetheless we have 13 albanian and kosovan Z17107+ member and 5 of them put the results on Yfull, so they made full sequence test. France is twenty times bigger and populous (and - I think - richer) but from all France we know just 2 CTS9320+. So I don't think, the money is the reason. A secret of the past is not yet known to us.

But your Unetice-Tumulus-Urnfield theory completely convinced me. I'm beginning to rewrite my family history. After the PIE assimilation, my far father don't stay in the Pontic steppe, he went west follow the Danube with the R1b tribes to Germany and later became an Unetice man.

Aspurg
26-01-19, 20:27
In NW Bulgaria (and in Dolj Romania) there are two CTS9320* clades, in addition to Z37530 there which has a more distant connection to Carpahians that dates to IA, so these are some clear signs IMO of connection between Z37530 and Basarabi culture. That same goes for our Z17107 clade which generally has a Northeastern orientation. For some more Western clades Gava culture might be a better fit.

Z17264 seems connected to Ancient Greeks, it seems it was present in Greece since at least 500 BC, but it immigrated from the North. The Bulgarian on YFull matches closely with other Greeks.

About our Z17107, I'm waiting for my WGS results and also there is an interesting Turk from Samsun. and he seems closest to E-Y81971, and I may also fall under E-Y81971 because it seems there might easily be a clade under Z17107 defined by a back mutation on DYS513. Interestingly he mentions Khazars, well there are some indications of Khazar connections where I'm from too.:smile: So lets wait for his BigY to see whether he is Z17107+.

I think my own clade most certainly arrived to Shop as Cumans after the murder of Khoten, and subsequently my ancestors arrived later to Bijelo Polje area most likely with Bulgarian-Cuman invasion of 1253/1254 when Dubrovnik called for Bulgarian help. And virtually everywhere where my haplotypes are found on the Balkans there is some Cuman/nomad connection.

Most likely the entire Z17107 has a Cimmerian connection. Albanian TMRCA will not go beyond 2000 ybp anyway no matter how widespread BY4461 is among Albanians, and there are some Illyrian Glasinac Mati culture burials of such origin (Eastern-Cimmerian like), so it's not at all a problem to make up an explanation for this clade. Cimmerians migrating from Asia should have been Z93 and some Q/N they carried along which can be noticed in their autosomal profile, but it's not for no reason their archaeological culture was called usually "Thraco-Cimmerian", and I guess many of these Eastern V13 clades have something to do with that.

With regards to my own clade there is actually some very direct evidence of that, that can be obtained through proper historical interpretation of some onomastical traces that exist where I'm from, and also where my cousins are found on the Balkans.

kuzmosi
26-01-19, 21:58
I look forward to the results with great curiosity. It's a very fantastic story. How to became a mesolithic African hunter to a neolithic farmer, later a Proto-indo-european eneolithic warrior livestock keeper, later a militant Bronz Age Tumulus man, later an Iron-Age pre-scythian/proto-thracian/cimmerian horseman, and later his sons live from Ireland to Russia, and from Scandinavia to Sicily. And this bloodline had never seen a mammoth, because he had lived in Ethiopia just for 23.800 years before. But the lions......

kuzmosi
26-01-19, 22:02
Maybe that's why there are three of them in the Swedish coat of arms.

Aspurg
27-01-19, 22:44
That map with a migration from Gava culture to Thrace and Asia Minor looks interesting for Z17264 because this clade is common and diverse in Greece, and is widespread in Macedonia, Ionian Islands and Western Asia Minor..

kuzmosi
28-01-19, 19:22
Well, this map does not show the Gáva culture. This shows the Gáta-Wieselburg culture from western-Hungary and eastern austria. The Gáta group was the first victim for Tumulus culture. In the Carpathian Basin. The Gáta-Wieselburg refugees really ran to Anatolia.
https://akademiai.com/doi/abs/10.1556/072.2018.69.1.1

The Gáva culture existed in northeast Hungary. The Gava and its predecessors could not be overthrown by the Tumulus or the Urnfield.

Tutkun Arnaut
28-01-19, 19:51
I don't want to offend anyone, but Albania and Kosovo aren't wealthy, nonetheless we have 13 albanian and kosovan Z17107+ member and 5 of them put the results on Yfull, so they made full sequence test. France is twenty times bigger and populous (and - I think - richer) but from all France we know just 2 CTS9320+. So I don't think, the money is the reason. A secret of the past is not yet known to us.

But your Unetice-Tumulus-Urnfield theory completely convinced me. I'm beginning to rewrite my family history. After the PIE assimilation, my far father don't stay in the Pontic steppe, he went west follow the Danube with the R1b tribes to Germany and later became an Unetice man.

If curious about Albanian matches: Google "Gjenetika shqiptare", after "Resultatet " . You have over 600 member's have posted their results. There are over 200 E members. Maybe you find something there

Aspurg
28-01-19, 20:28
Well, this map does not show the Gáva culture. This shows the Gáta-Wieselburg culture from western-Hungary and eastern austria.

Yea, my bad wasn't looking carefully, and Gata is too old to have anything to do with CTS9320.

Anyway regarding Z16988 though there are some more distant SNP links with central Europe, but I cannot really buy that CTS9320 developed there. In Bulgaria you have:
two Z5017>Z5016>CTS9320* clades (they are located in Basarabi areas)
Z5017>Z5016>CTS6377*, this clade is not found elsewhere in the Balkans (except one Greek with a Vlach surname), there is one anonymous Lviv haplotype that might be of this clade as well because it shares some of its reliable older values.

Importantly though, although not yet seen on YFull, and also under Z5017 in Bulgaria there are:
Z5017>BY4684*
Z5017>BY4684>Z19851

So these are above Z5016* clades found in Portugal. Because of this it seems clear to me that the ancestor of Z5017 must have been around Eastern Balkans.
Same goes for Z5018, for S7461 and for Aspar's Y16729, and for some others as well...

I think CTS9320 and L241 clades were mobile and had moved more to the West, but their distant originating point must have been more to the East.

kuzmosi
29-01-19, 13:37
Thank you Tutkun Arnaut!

I found 34 family who are Z38456+. They are all my 2700 year old relatives for direct paternal line. But I'm Z17107+ and Z38456-.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z17107/

I'm YF11315 and we are a brother line with the Z38456. The most important question is: Is there any albanian or other sample from the Balkan, who is Z17107+ but Z38456-? I don't know anything other than Aspurg. But out of the Balkans I know 2 russian, 1 kazany tatar, 2 ukrainian, 1 georgian and 2 english or irish. That's why I believe that Z17107 father has not lived in the Balkans 2700 years ago. His son, Z38456 moved south, cross the Danube only. The other son, Y81971 and the other brothers stayed north of the Danube.

And we try to find, which culture was his home.

Aspurg
29-01-19, 15:23
Thank you Tutkun Arnaut!

I found 34 family who are Z38456+. They are all my 2700 year old relatives for direct paternal line. But I'm Z17107+ and Z38456-.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z17107/

I'm YF11315 and we are a brother line with the Z38456. The most important question is: Is there any albanian or other sample from the Balkan, who is Z17107+ but Z38456-? I don't know anything other than Aspurg. But out of the Balkans I know 2 russian, 1 kazany tatar, 2 ukrainian, 1 georgian and 2 english or irish. That's why I believe that Z17107 father has not lived in the Balkans 2700 years ago. His son, Z38456 moved south, cross the Danube only. The other son, Y81971 and the other brothers stayed north of the Danube.

Other than me there is a Serb family with an earlier name "Dugeyin" (might be etymologically tied with Dugin or Turkic Dogan :smile:) according to literature of "unknown origin" from the village of Pečenjevce near Leskovac, according to most authors this village is connected to Pechenegs. These do not cluster with me most closely (but they too are within 800-1000 yrs range from me) but with a Bulgarian from Sofiya. Next to Pečenjevce there is a village Chekmin, the only analogy is a Cuman or Berendei khan Chekman Chagrovich mentioned in 1167. I think I saw this name once in Great Cumania too.

There are some additional haplotypes of my clade in Shop area, Vranje and Pirot most likely, in addition to a Macedonian (NE Macedonia most likely as he clusters most closely with haplotype that should be from Vranje).

These haplotypes had a little founder effect in Shop area.



And we try to find, which culture was his home.

Most likely Belsk - Gelonus. The archaeological culture of Belsk had more Western origin. For Albanian clade as I've said there are various options.

kuzmosi
29-01-19, 20:49
Dear Son of my old father!

Maybe you are right, but I think Z17107 father lived before the scythians.

My best candidate at this time is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basarabi_culture

But I still have a problem. Sorry, two problems. The two Z38456+ swedish families. Eriksson and Engelin. How?

Aspurg
29-01-19, 23:37
Dear Son of my old father!

Maybe you are right, but I think Z17107 father lived before the scythians.

My best candidate at this time is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basarabi_culture

But I still have a problem. Sorry, two problems. The two Z38456+ swedish families. Eriksson and Engelin. How?

I think presence of these Z38456>BY4435 in Sweden might easily be related to the presence of two distant clades of Z37530 in Sweden. YF07169 is Z37530* whereas YF03763 (not sure if this is another Swede BY4543+ or a German BY4523) is Z37530>Y20805 (there are problems with reading of Z37530, so all od these at YFull are at CTS9320* level). and he is with Bulgarian from NW Bulgaria (area of Basarabi culture) at TMRCA of also 2700 ybp. Engelin and Eriksson are very distant to Albanians, they only share Z38456 and they don't share 20 SNP's under with them. There is a possibility of this Tatar to be distantly related to them, if he is he then might clearly indicate all of Z17107 is Cimmerian, or he could be negative to Z38456 too, we'll see.
So you have Z17107>Z38456>BY4435, Z37530*, Z37530>Y20805 all in Sweden and also Z37530* is found in Ruthenians (a cluster where Hungarian on YFull belongs) so they too have an Eastern orientation.

I believe these clades might have arrived together in some Late Scandinavian Bronze Age migration (Iron Age in Scandinavia begins 400 BC). It needs to be figured out what sort of migration that could be.

I'll quote now a view of Ukrainian archaeologist M.N.Daragan (translated by me):
"at the end of 9th, beginning of the 8th century BC, the life in old settlements of Chernoles culture fades, and new larger settlements of the Chernoles culture appear, the so-called Zhabotyn phase. At that time in the Chernoles culture appear migrants from the West - a group of settlements of the Basarabi culture from the area of Middle Danube, and of the late Saharna culture from the southern portion of the Middle Dnieper region. "

In the Western settlement of the Belsk complex, according to greatest expert on Belsk archaeologist B.A. Schramko attributed to Gelonians, there is lots of Chernoles pottery, etc..
So we should be this second element of the Chernoles culture. Also there is a Russian kit 228275 who is Z16988+ and has no close relation to any other Z16988..

Also these YFull dates cannot be taken too literally, (plus I believe it is counted from around 1950?) But generally the dates do correspond nicely to this migration.

t50
30-03-19, 18:53
Tumulus culture


Do you know where you got this map of the Tumulus Culture? I have been looking all over for the original, but with no luck. I am very interested in its spread into northern Italy and into Anatolia.

(Sorry, I was not able to include the map link due to my being a newby.)

DeVerbno
21-10-19, 19:30
They promise to add SNP E-BY4526 to the Yfull tree at the next recount. Let's see how age and distance to a common ancestor change

Laszczynski

kuzmosi
22-10-19, 19:50
Great news thank you

DeVerbno
22-10-19, 21:37
Now, on the FTDNA tree, four Swedes are located in the E-BY4526 branch:
E-BY4526 (Ovanede Torp)
E-BY4529
E-BY4523
E-BY4540
In Yfull I see only two
Does anyone know the contacts of the rest so that they put the data in Yfull?
Thank!

Laszczynski (Polish cluster E-BY4526)

DeVerbno
25-10-19, 11:40
In addition, it should be noted that in Russia there is E-V13 associated with Scandinavian expansion

1. Yaroslav Osmomysl
2. Viceroy, leader of the Scandinavian-Slavic squad (Krivichs, Kryvichs, Kryvičý) of a settlement in Bolshevo (tumulus (kurgan) fields 11-12 century), where there was a transit point on Klyazma

Ivar of Rasa Bol
25-10-19, 12:33
Nevermind this.

I pushed the red button - And yet it´s saying"
0 out of 1 members found this post helpful"

So once more, rafc´s comment was not helpful at all