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kuzmosi
09-12-18, 00:38
Can someone tell me, what kind of EV 13 subgroups are present in the separate kurdish and kazan tatar populations?

Lenab
09-12-18, 00:44
Do Tatar groups have E Neolithic? Also how much even I want to know that

kuzmosi
09-12-18, 11:16
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

EV 13 isn't neolithic branch. 4800 years old, like the oldest creature on earth: Fortingall Yew (taxus baccata). So EV 13 is Calcholitic.

According this map: among the kazan tatars (earlier: volgan bolgars) EV 13 is stronger like the few neighbouring few thousands kilometres.

The kurds are cut off from other EV 13s. How and why? Do we know kurdish or kazan tatar samples?

Aspurg
09-12-18, 17:10
@Lenab Educate yourself and learn basics. V13 was present in Neolithic Europe but it wasn't common then, its modern spread has nothing to do with Neolithic migrations as V13 expanded in Early BA.



According this map: among the kazan tatars (earlier: volgan bolgars) EV 13 is stronger like the few neighbouring few thousands kilometres.

The kurds are cut off from other EV 13s. How and why? Do we know kurdish or kazan tatar samples?

As of now Tatars have about 3 % of E-V13 specifically. These are clades that are confirmed or I can with great certainty estimate their SNP:

E-V13>PH1246>Y84931 also present in Armenia, Poland and Hungary, some months ago I ofc correctly estimated this clade for them, as it was obvious.
E-V13>Z5018>S2978 (this should be Vadim of YFull :) )
E-V13>Z5018>FGC11450
E-V13>Z5018>L241>A7065
E-V13>Z5017>CTS9320>Z17107* (Z38456- or certainly BY4461-)


The last one is Kamalov, who might be interesting for us as he looks as some Z17107*, also Daukaev looks similar to Fedushka Z17107* on Y12 but he would have to expand for more info. Plus few more I can't figure out very well, so V13 in Tatars is diverse, unlike for example their J-L283 which is more numerous but has a TMRCA of just 1350 years. Also with more people tested, some other haplotypes might pop up.

What do I think of their clades?
Y84931- Steppe population might be easily Bulgar, due to its spread, and looks like it was present in the East for some time.
S2978 - Greek colonisation as it's found in Greeks and Sardinia
FGC11450 - hard to say might be Thraco-Cimmerian, not sure who are their closest matches.
A7065 - 19/111 with Romanian, as L241 is found in Greeks might be Greek colonisation but no deeper tests have been done on their L241, it might also be local in Carpathians, latter is probably more likely. Tatar cluster has two of 5/37 so they were among them in Medieval times at least.
Z17107 - well I wrote about it before naturally, Cuman traces aside there is clear evidence that someone in exactly the same area I am from had knowledge of elements of Nominalia of Bulgarian khans 400-500 years ago and even claim to descend from one, impossible as this document was discovered 150 years ago after nearly 1000 years unless ofc there were real Bulgars there.:) Z17107 is very diverse around and northeast of Carpathians so my guess is Thraco-Cimmerian origin. Albanian TMRCA will not go past 2000 years (atm 1650) while in Lviv Ukraine you have already two Z17107 clades whos TMRCA is not under 2700 years :). A few BY4461 are found in Greeks also and they are Arvanites.



Kurds
E-V13>S7461>A11182>BY5024
E-V13>CTS5856* (Z5017-, Z5018-, S3003-, S7461-, Y16729-, Y19508-, Z16663-, BY6527-)

In Kurds V13 is not as common as that map suggests but interestingly there is CTS5856* there, negative to other clades under. Recently an Ossetian cluster was determined to be another CTS5856* with no relation to anyone thus far, so that means in two Iranic populations there are CTS5856*, which clearly shows that CTS5856 expanded in an IE population. Not sure about their BY5024, parallel clades were present in ancient Greeks as well as northwards in Thrace where S7461 is more diverse.

Lenab
09-12-18, 17:17
@Lenab Educate yourself and learn basics. V13 was present in Neolithic Europe but it wasn't common then, its modern spread has nothing to do with Neolithic migrations as V13 expanded in Early BA.



As of now Tatars have about 3 % of E-V13 specifically. These are clades that are confirmed or I can with great certainty estimate their SNP:

E-V13>PH1246>Y84931 also present in Armenia, Poland and Hungary, some months ago I ofc correctly estimated this clade for them, as it was obvious.
E-V13>Z5018>S2978 (this should be Vadim of YFull :) )
E-V13>Z5018>FGC11450
E-V13>Z5018>L241>A7065
E-V13>Z5017>CTS9320>Z17107* (Z38456- or certainly BY4461-)


The last one is Kamalov, who might be interesting for us as he looks as some Z17107*, also Daukaev looks similar to Fedushka Z17107* on Y12 but he would have to expand for more info. Plus few more I can't figure out very well, so V13 in Tatars is diverse, unlike for example their J-L283 which is more numerous but has a TMRCA of just 1350 years.

What do I think of their clades?
Y84931- Steppe population might be easily Bulgar, due to its spread, and looks like it was present in the East for some time.
S2978 - Greek colonisation as it's found in Greeks and Sardinia
FGC11450 - hard to say might be Thraco-Cimmerian, not sure who are their closest matches.
A7065 - 19/111 with Romanian, as L241 is found in Greeks might be Greek colonisation but so no deeper tests have been done on their L241, it might also be local in Carpathians, latter is probably more likely. Tatar cluster has two of 5/37 so they were among them in Medieval times at least.
Z17107 - well I wrote about it before naturally, Cuman traces aside there is clear evidence that someone in exactly the same area I am from had knowledge of elements of Nominalia of Bulgarian khans 400-500 years ago and even claim to descend from one, impossible as this document was discovered 150 years ago after nearly 1000 years unless ofc there were real Bulgars there.:) Z17107 is very diverse around and northeast of Carpathians so my guess is Thraco-Cimmerian origin. Albanian TMRCA will not go past 2000 years (atm 1650) while in Lviv Ukraine you have already two Z17107 clades whos TMRCA is not under 2700 years :). A few BY4461 are found in Greeks also and they are Arvanites.



Kurds
E-V13>S7461>A11182>BY5024
E-V13>CTS5856* (Z5017-, Z5018-, S3003-, S7461-, Y16729-, Y19508-, Z16663-, BY6527-)

In Kurds V13 is not as common as that map suggests but interestingly there is CTS5856* there, negative to other clades under. Recently an Ossetian cluster was determined to be another CTS5856* with no relation to anyone thus far, so that means in two Iranic populations there are CTS5856*, which clearly shows that CTS5856 expanded in an IE population. Not sure about their BY5024, parallel clades were present in ancient Greeks as well as northwards in Thrace where S7461 is more diverse.
I didn't say that it's common I said it's present to say E3b isn't present in any part of Neolithic is uneducated, sorry. My question is not for Kurds but Tatars. Tatars the part of them that's European I have heard are mixed in with Volga Bulgarians, so that E makes sense. Kurds plot in a few places but I am guessing the original types were like Persian/Medes?

Lenab
09-12-18, 17:24
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif

EV 13 isn't neolithic branch. 4800 years old, like the oldest creature on earth: Fortingall Yew (taxus baccata). So EV 13 is Calcholitic.

According this map: among the kazan tatars (earlier: volgan bolgars) EV 13 is stronger like the few neighbouring few thousands kilometres.

The kurds are cut off from other EV 13s. How and why? Do we know kurdish or kazan tatar samples?

It is linked to the diffusion of Afro-Asiatic languages and of Neolithic farmers from the Near ... Assimilation of Neolithic European E-V13 by the Indo-Europeans.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/11/y-haplogroups-e-v13-and-g2a-in.html

What's wrong with people on this website and typing in basic stuff like E3b Neolithic or Ev13 Neolithic?

Aspurg
09-12-18, 18:39
What's wrong with people on this website and typing in basic stuff like E3b Neolithic or Ev13 Neolithic?

There is nothing wrong with it per se, as V13 is Neolithic, however if calculating the influence of this hg it has to be said that it had alot more impact in this post-IE invasion period than it did in the earlier Neolithic period.
You use the outdated "E3b" term, you express surprise as to why would Tatars have "Neolithic E", you say that you are "S24" or M223 which is 11700 years old, what's your clade under? Without it you cannot know anything more about your ancestry. It leaves impression of an unknowledgeable individual when it comes to genetics. If you want to know basic things such as hg's among Tatars go look at their project or see some studies. Like most other peoples they are diverse.