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View Full Version : I2a-Din has spread in Europe from the Balkans.



gidai
22-01-19, 20:47
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gyms
22-01-19, 21:55
Who is the author of this "article"? Where are the ancient DNA studies that prove that?

Ownstyler
22-01-19, 22:01
An interesting article that seems to prove that I2a-Din was spread from the Balkans to the north and east Europe, not vice versa.

A fragment:
"- The subclade Y4460 (TMRCA 2200 ybp) has many representatives in the northern Europe, and very few in the eastern Balkans. Some of the Y4460 people in Ukraine, Belarus, Poland… are positive for the oldest branches of this subclade, and all Y4460 people in Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria… carry the oldest lineages. None of the younger branches (formed less than 2000 years ago) which represent the majority in eastern and western Slavic countries, can be found in the Balkans! This could mean that:
a) Y4460 actually came to Balkan +2000 years ago (from the north), remained sparse, and for some reason did not evolve further – which is, when everything is considered, highly unlikely;
b) the greater part of Y4460 “clan” left the (eastern) Balkans +2000 years ago, crossed the Carpathian mountains and prospered in the Slavic and Baltic countries.
In either case, this is a crucial piece of information: there was no subsequent migration (in the 6th, 7th, or later centuries) to the Balkans which could have brought the younger branches."

All article: https://www.geni.com/projects/I-L621-Y-DNA/40630


First of all, just looking at Y4460 on YFull, it has 3 main branches: one in Belarus, one mainly in Russia, and one spread all around Central and Easter Europe, but mostly Ukraine-Poland-Belarus (no Balkans). These are not young, they're all 2200 years old according to YFull, which is the age of the whole subclade.

Second, there is no need to look at "articles" at geni because there is already scientific research on this, and it concludes that I-P37.2 is most diverse around Ukraine. Here it is: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1bUIW1YACgZYlJGZWlNd25xTkU/view.

https://i.postimg.cc/9rdKnywn/I-P37-2-distribution-and-diversity.png (https://postimg.cc/9rdKnywn)

This has all been discussed before, here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34389-I-CTS10228-Dinaric-subclades-and-distribution. I recommend you reply there and talk to Vlad as he knows a lot about this branch.

gidai
22-01-19, 23:28
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Ownstyler
22-01-19, 23:33
That seems interesting. If the parental clades are now in Balkans, and 2200 years old, but the descendents subclades are somewhere else, What that means?... Children do not give birth to parents. ;)

Which parental clades are you talking about? I said the oldest subclades of Y4460 on YFull are from Poland, Ukraine, Russia and Belarus, not from the Balkans.

gidai
22-01-19, 23:48
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Ownstyler
23-01-19, 00:03
I understand that a subclade descend from a clade who is in Balkans.

Which one specifically?

I named three subclades of I-Y4460 that are on YFull.

I-Y70430 is in Belarus
I-SK1241 has one branch (I-Y85945) in Russia and one (I-Y31845) in Russia and Hungary
I-Y3106 has many branches all over Eastern Europe, but mainly Ukraine and Poland

So which one of these has a parental subclade in the Balkans and which subclade is the one you think is its parent?

gidai
23-01-19, 00:12
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Ownstyler
23-01-19, 00:17
If you say... all 3.:innocent:

Alright I'm not wasting any more time with you.

gidai
23-01-19, 00:27
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hrvat22
23-01-19, 08:36
That seems interesting. If the parental clades are now in Balkans, and 2200 years old, but the descendents subclades are somewhere else, What that means?... Children do not give birth to parents. ;)

You will know age of that subclade for 10 years or earlier when they determine all mutations in that Y4460 branch.

As far as I can see source of the same branch is in the later area of White Croatia, earlier I do not know to which tribe would belong that subclade, since the Croats do not have that subclade it is very likely some migration from southern Poland or southwestern Ukraine before occurrence of subclade I-S17250.

gidai
23-01-19, 11:26
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hrvat22
23-01-19, 12:27
Other information from Geni. Y18331 is a subclade of Y3120. The oldest lineages of Y18331 are present only in Greece, and all others are scattered mainly across the northern and eastern Europe. So, its parental Y3120 branch probably originated also in Greece-Balkan area.

Y3120 subclade has four descendants, I-Y18331,
I-Z17855, Y4460 and I-S17250, Their common ancestor Y3120 is in the area of Poland and his ancestor is in the French area. Therefore for now is migration with that direction.

Father(Y3120) could not have children all over Europe, it could have children only in the south Poland or that area from where his sons migrate in different directions.

Why would someone on the basis one mutation of four brother mutations made conclusion that all brothers and father come from there? One brother with subclade Y4460 comes to Russia, Sweden, one with subclade S17250 come to Belarus and from where they come Greece, Balkans? I do not think so.

gidai
23-01-19, 13:24
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Johane Derite
23-01-19, 14:01
Ok. They also say that the carriers of Y3120 subclades live all over Balkans, north-eastern and north-western Europe. But, Balkans is the only region where all I-CTS10228 subclades are grouped together – it undoubtedly points to a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2300-3800 years. It is even more significant that the primary lineages of all four Y3120 subclades are found exclusively in the Balkans.

As much as I understand, I think there are arguments showing that these old branches of CTS10228 existed in the Balkans quite long before the sixth-seventh centuries, and were not brought 1500 years ago from outside.

Absolutely false. I am so tired of slavic revisionism. CTS10228 fits exactly the timeline of the well documenter slavic migrations. Its older more diverse and basal clades all found in poland/ukraine. Stop these incessant lies.

hrvat22
23-01-19, 14:14
Ok. They also say that the carriers of Y3120 subclades live all over Balkans, north-eastern and north-western Europe. But, Balkans is the only region where all I-CTS10228 subclades are grouped together – it undoubtedly points to a spatial and temporal continuity of some 2300-3800 years.

As much as I understand, I think there are arguments showing that these old branches of CTS10228 existed in the Balkans quite long before the sixth-seventh centuries, and were not brought 1500 years ago from outside.

If Slavs in written records coming from Slovenia to Greece then this is a possible reason for that.


It is even more significant that the primary lineages of all four Y3120 subclades are found exclusively in the Balkans.

Migration of Slavs was not small and question is how much peoples remained in White Croatia or that area?


We must also think about earlier migrations of White Croatians or Slavs from that area. They could migrate to Ukrainia, Hungaria etc and when these migrations begin to the Balkans each group comes from their area. Surely we still do not know exactly but future will say more.


As much as I understand, I think there are arguments showing that these old branches of CTS10228 existed in the Balkans quite long before the sixth-seventh centuries, and were not brought 1500 years ago from outside

How genetics will say in the future we will see, but some Slavs must come to the Balkans and most of the natives flee, I do not see that (flee, slavic) haplotypes in Italy, and they must exist because Illyrians were mostly assimilated into Romans.


The Romanization of these barbarian peoples eventually transformed them into the most valuable soldiers of the Late Roman Army, with a substantial portion of the officials and generals coming from a northern balkanic background, such as Illyria, Dalmatia, Pannonia and Moesia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyro-Roman

gidai
23-01-19, 14:17
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gidai
23-01-19, 15:04
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bicicleur
23-01-19, 15:50
Absolutely false. I am so tired of slavic revisionism. CTS10228 fits exactly the timeline of the well documenter slavic migrations. Its older more diverse and basal clades all found in poland/ukraine. Stop these incessant lies.

you're right
and what about the Slavs with Y-DNA R1a? how do you see this?

JajarBingan
23-01-19, 16:07
Romanian history in a nutshell: "We wuz the centre of civilisation.".

gidai
23-01-19, 19:07
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gidai
23-01-19, 19:29
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gidai
23-01-19, 20:38
:thinking:UNSUBSCRIBE. :good_job:

gidai
24-01-19, 16:12
Sorry friends! It seemed to me that the study from the link I found was interesting. I thought you'd just talk about genetics. But you started again with preconceived ideas based on national pride and interethnic hatred. You tried to turn to 180 degrees the ideas displayed on that page, in the hilarious style that the t-rolls do. That does not work.
Thanks to hrvat22 who was decent.

JajarBingan
24-01-19, 17:41
Sorry friends! It seemed to me that the study from the link I found was interesting. I thought you'd just talk about genetics. But you started again with preconceived ideas based on national pride and interethnic hatred. You tried to turn to 180 degrees the ideas displayed on that page, in the hilarious style that the t-rolls do. That does not work.
Thanks to hrvat22 who was decent.
That's because Ownstyler already presented a strong enough counterargument to which you couldn't respond. There's no point dragging the discussion just for the sake of wasting time.
As others have said, there are other branches under CTS10228 that split at the same time, but occur only outside of Southeast Europe.

gidai
24-01-19, 19:08
Look better.
He was trying from beginning to create confusion, in the hilarious style that a t-roll do.