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gidai
01-02-19, 12:34
Do you think there is some common features, or common aura, on these faces of G2a men?
You can add more photos if the men were tested, or someone on the paternal line, grandfather, father, son.
1.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Jake_Gyllenhaal_Cannes_2017.jpg

2.
https://www.biography.com/.image/ar_1:1%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cg_face%2Cq_auto:good%2 Cw_300/MTE5NTU2MzE2Mzc0NDY4MTA3/joseph-stalin-9491723-1-402.jpg

Ötzi :smile:
https://img.purch.com/w/660/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5saXZlc2NpZW5jZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMD AwLzEwMC8zNzYvb3JpZ2luYWwvaWNlbWFuLW11bW15LWZhY2Ut Tk8tUkVVU0UuanBn


3.
https://images.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2014/182/7650073_1404323676.jpg

4.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Larrybird.jpg

5.
https://images.gawker.com/18k4oyvampotujpg/original.jpg

The ones below are from the same page. https://anthonyadolph.co.uk/adolph-and-haplogroup-g-genealogy/
6.
https://anthonyadolph.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Herbet-G-relative-for-website-203x300.jpg

7. The first and the third are G2a.
https://anthonyadolph.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Swinfield-Greenspam-Adolph-300x188.jpg

8.
https://anthonyadolph.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/John-Jack-Fletcher-234x300.jpg

9.
https://anthonyadolph.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/MikeMoose.jpg

10.
https://anthonyadolph.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Heasam-e1494325154286.jpg

11.
https://anthonyadolph.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Jay-Jay-Billings-e1458653817949.jpg

12.
https://anthonyadolph.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Goldsborough-235x300.jpg

13.
https://anthonyadolph.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Buisson-e1515072083972.jpg

14.
https://anthonyadolph.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Steven-MIller-DNA-e1531137421505.jpg

15.
https://anthonyadolph.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/antprofpiclowres21-235x300.jpg

gidai
01-02-19, 19:45
More G2a.
16.
https://i2-prod.dailypost.co.uk/incoming/article10469476.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/JS48202062.jpg

17.
http://jimlannin.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/JimLanninWebPhotoSmall.jpg

18.
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~deis/fdeis.JPG

gidai
05-02-19, 20:22
I found some pictures of I2 men that can be useful for comparison with G2a. Most of its are from here (https://haplogroupijm429.wordpress.com/category/i2/).
1)
https://haplogroupijm429.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/1331_1522340520.jpg
2)
https://haplogroupijm429.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/enda_kenny_thumbnail.png?w=381
3)
https://static.ukrinform.com/photos/2018_06/thumb_files/630_360_1529048639-1512.jpg
4)
https://d2rormqr1qwzpz.cloudfront.net/photos/2013/01/12/43874-original.jpg
5)
https://haplogroupijm429.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/faulkner.jpg?w=370&h=370
6)
https://haplogroupijm429.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/nj-k-v-prestolonaslednik-aleksandar-ii.jpg?w=664&h=469
7)
https://haplogroupijm429.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/custer_bvt_mg_geo_a_1865_lc-bh831-365-crop.jpg?w=353&h=442
8)
http://photos.geni.com/p10/a4/53/62/f7/53444838344ce867/5_large.jpg
9)
https://haplogroupijm429.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/bill-gates.png?w=438
10)
https://haplogroupijm429.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/14729275_904947999635846_7591854658403151202_n.jpg

Angela
05-02-19, 21:35
The ydna doesn't determine appearance. That is controlled by the autosomes.

gidai
05-02-19, 22:21
I have no claim to a scientific approach, but with little attention I already feel on the whole, a small difference between the faces of I2 and G2a. This is what you feel about. Facial expression is also a mirror of the soul. And man has the dexterity to read the faces well, even if can not express what he sees through words.

Tutkun Arnaut
05-02-19, 22:55
I found some pictures of I2 men that can be useful for comparison with G2a. Most of its are from here (https://haplogroupijm429.wordpress.com/category/i2/).
1)
https://haplogroupijm429.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/1331_1522340520.jpg
2)
https://haplogroupijm429.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/enda_kenny_thumbnail.png?w=381
3)
https://static.ukrinform.com/photos/2018_06/thumb_files/630_360_1529048639-1512.jpg
4)
https://d2rormqr1qwzpz.cloudfront.net/photos/2013/01/12/43874-original.jpg
5)
https://haplogroupijm429.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/faulkner.jpg?w=370&h=370
6)
https://haplogroupijm429.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/nj-k-v-prestolonaslednik-aleksandar-ii.jpg?w=664&h=469
7)
https://haplogroupijm429.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/custer_bvt_mg_geo_a_1865_lc-bh831-365-crop.jpg?w=353&h=442
8)
http://photos.geni.com/p10/a4/53/62/f7/53444838344ce867/5_large.jpg
9)
https://haplogroupijm429.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/bill-gates.png?w=438
10)
https://haplogroupijm429.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/14729275_904947999635846_7591854658403151202_n.jpg

I am also in this group. When I was in America I was always compared with Robin Williams(dead). In this group of photo I look like Nr 2 and 4. It is a stricken resemblance. I could be a remnant of Visigoths in ALBANIA

Regio X
06-02-19, 17:04
What about the Yorkshire man John Revis, notorious for his A1?
http://www.abroadintheyard.com/wp-content/uploads/John-Revis.jpg

Or Milton Nascimento, who is I1?
https://studiosol-a.akamaihd.net/uploadfile/letras/fotos/7/b/8/7/7b87d9c078fef5e2a415af9c416c739f.jpg

Yeah, I know they are somewhat extreme cases, but this fact doesn't change the "logic" of the autosomal being way stronger.

Na, particularly I don't believe in such thing as "aura". Probably just a subjective perspective akin to cognitive biases like "illusory correlation" (that's "also" how stereotypes emerge). People see this "aura" when they already know the haplogroup to which the man belongs. I'm sure no one would manage to identify macro-haplogroups in random pictures with high chances of success. As Angela pointed out, looking is much more related to Autosomal DNA. Indeed, naturally we all have seen many men who look like their mothers, and many women who look like their fathers. Plus, the diversity I see in my paternal family roughly corresponds to the diversity I notice in other men of the same ethnicity. It's better to do such exercise considering far relatives, 'cause the chances of sharing substantial Autosomal DNA would be lower. Btw, the paternal grandfather of my paternal grandfather had 8 sons (1 died young) and 1 daughter. Each man in the first two generations usually had about 10 children in average. So he left hundreds of descendants men living today, and I've seen many of them either in pictures or personally, in family reunions. So I do have some references. :) Of course, anyone could occasionally observe this variation. No need to test the Y-DNA. Just assume that a certain lineage are related to the same (unkown) haplogroup and that's it.
Even if haplogroups may contribute to some detectable traits "to the point" of creating 'auras' (and then prevail over Autosomal in specific aspects), why to focus in old macro-haplogroups, many thousand of years old? I mean, why then not to look to, say, GHIJK, or IJ, or K or whatever!? Those are just names for a given set of mutations. Some young subclades have hundreds of additional mutations compared to their macro-haplogroups'. Would it exist, say, a R-M269 aura? Overlapping auras? :)

Angela
06-02-19, 17:48
^^Indeed. Let's not forget all those R1b carrying West Africans either.
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Data/Cameroon_2.jpg

gidai
06-02-19, 18:48
Regio X and Angela,
Yes. Most features, such as skin color, are given by autosomes. But somehow Y-DNA may also moderate the formation of these characteristics, such as differences in men to women head conformation. Otherwise, women, could not distinguish :smile: ...
Even much smaller differences between Y-DNA of different haplogroups can be seen in subtle differences on male faces making abstractions of the clear influence of autosomal DNA? It's hard to say indeed.

Ygorcs
06-02-19, 19:25
Honestly I do not see many similarities beyond "generic Caucasoid traits" if you consider all of those men together, not just a few traits that appear in just some of them, but not in all the others. There is no clear pattern. I'd say the similarities have much more to do with the particular G2a-carrying populations some of those men derived from having a certain autosomal DNA makeup that is reasonably close to each other. And then if you get a number of samples high enough, particularly of a reasonably homogeneous (genetically) population as Europeans, you're quite likely to find some coincidental similaritieis in features, nothing to do with carrying this or that haplogroup.

The entire Y chromosome is already pretty tiny considering the entire genome of a male, let alone only the mutations that will characterize someone's haplogroup (in this case a very upstream one, G2a). What really determines the bulk of one's phenotype, including one's looks, is to be found in the autosomal DNA.

As Regio pointed out, the fact that so many men look more like their mothers than their fathers also indicate to me that Y-DNA haplogroups won't have much influence at all.

In Brazil, it is not totally uncommon at all to find European-looking men with e.g. Q1b or maybe E1b1a, and even much, much more common to find undeniably African-looking men carrying I1, R1b-M269 or I2. That does not seem to correlate well with their looks, but it does correlate quite well with the autosomal makeup, though even in that case it is often a flawed correlation, because it may be that randomly more looks-related genes were selected from one's European component than the African component, or vice-versa.

Ygorcs
06-02-19, 19:31
Just for fun: if they prove me that Ahmadinejad is G2a, then I'll be convinced.

https://i.chzbgr.com/full/1421544192/h622E4A08/ (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi95Zft3qfgAhV0F7kGHVbIA54QjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcheezburger.com%2F1421544192&psig=AOvVaw2eOKT1IyS-pXK8asbwyNsW&ust=1549564255725664)

gidai
06-02-19, 19:51
Just for fun: if they prove me that Ahmadinejad is G2a, then I'll be convinced.

https://i.chzbgr.com/full/1421544192/h622E4A08/ (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi95Zft3qfgAhV0F7kGHVbIA54QjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcheezburger.com%2F1421544192&psig=AOvVaw2eOKT1IyS-pXK8asbwyNsW&ust=1549564255725664)It's really convincing.:laughing:

Angela
06-02-19, 20:32
Just for fun: if they prove me that Ahmadinejad is G2a, then I'll be convinced.

https://i.chzbgr.com/full/1421544192/h622E4A08/ (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi95Zft3qfgAhV0F7kGHVbIA54QjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcheezburger.com%2F1421544192&psig=AOvVaw2eOKT1IyS-pXK8asbwyNsW&ust=1549564255725664)

Well, my husband is G2a, and he doesn't look at all like Ahmadinejad, although the pigmentation isn't that far off. :) Gyllenhaal is closer.

Seriously, almost all G2a in Europe are either L-497, or, like my husband, M406. So, I think it depends.

The highest concentration of M406 is in eastern Anatolia, near Armenian areas, I think.

A lot of the men from there definitely seem to have the broad head, broad planed face, long, strong nose and chin thing going on. However, there are a lot men who have those characteristics who are neither Armenian nor carry G2a, like people with such different origins as Clark Gable and Cary Grant, whom I posted on another thread. My husband does carry those traits, however, fwiw.

https://www.peopleofar.com/wp-content/uploads/602936.jpg

It can be extremely attractive, imo: gorgeous man.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/20/a4/63/20a4638312b1e904378a41fa0bb96150--armenian-men-armenian-culture.jpg

I guess you could call it a "Caucasus" look, which would be a combination of CHG or Iran Neo like and Anatolian Neo like, plus a few odd bits?

The female version:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/e2fkWSqBix0/maxresdefault.jpg

What a difference costume and make up can make.

Circassian women were renowned for their beauty:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/12/6a/5e/126a5eac8f0371b74639dd8a2925fa46--stunning-photography-beautiful-women.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/61/f3/e7/61f3e777ca0241866a1633ab5e8500cb--circassian-dress-russian-federation.jpg

Anyway, as I said before, the data for "appearance" is on the autosomes. The y probably "masculinizes" the look, but the essentials are the same in males and females.

Angela
06-02-19, 22:26
This Caucasus like phenotype is one that has traveled far and wide. All the way to Latin America in this case: Keith Hernandez.

https://jamboxstudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Carl-Keith-Hernandez.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b9/65/21/b96521fda9228db5cc0c51c4ace2aa48--the-count-counting-on.jpg

gidai
07-02-19, 00:04
This Caucasus like phenotype is one that has traveled far and wide. All the way to Latin America in this case: Keith Hernandez.

https://jamboxstudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Carl-Keith-Hernandez.jpg

Is he a G?

Angela
07-02-19, 01:22
Is he a G?

I have no idea. Since his father was from Spain, I would think the odds would be against it. Oh, his mother was Scots-Irish, but I don't see it in him. His father's genetics must have predominated.

gidai
07-02-19, 08:39
I just found in this (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=38627):
Milton Nascimento, from Rio de Janeiro, yDNA haplogroup, E1b1a7, mtDNA haplogroup L3d;
autosomal, 99,3% african, 0,4% european, 0,3% Amerindian

It is not an I1 or not even G. If that's the case then it's not an example in this story.

Regio X
07-02-19, 19:23
Just for fun: if they prove me that Ahmadinejad is G2a, then I'll be convinced.
https://i.chzbgr.com/full/1421544192/h622E4A08/ (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi95Zft3qfgAhV0F7kGHVbIA54QjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcheezburger.com%2F1421544192&psig=AOvVaw2eOKT1IyS-pXK8asbwyNsW&ust=1549564255725664)Well, there are good chances. The frequency of G as a whole in North Iran is ~15%. Don't know about G2a. Anyway, if Ahmadinejad is instead, say, a J, then it would be a thorough proof that the looking comes in fact from haplogroup GHIJK. Lol


I just found in this (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=38627):
Milton Nascimento, from Rio de Janeiro, yDNA haplogroup, E1b1a7, mtDNA haplogroup L3d;
autosomal, 99,3% african, 0,4% european, 0,3% Amerindian

It is not an I1 or not even G. If that's the case then it's not an example in this story.I'm so sorry, Gidai. I mixed up Milton Nascimento with Djavan, who is a famous Brazilian singer as well.

Here you have Djavan (Y-DNA I1):
https://www.vagalume.com.br/djavan/images/djavan.jpg

Source:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml#famous_people

gidai
07-02-19, 20:50
I'm so sorry, Gidai. I mixed up Milton Nascimento with Djavan, who is a famous Brazilian singer as well.

Here you have Djavan (Y-DNA I1):
https://www.vagalume.com.br/djavan/images/djavan.jpg

Source:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml#famous_people
Oh yes. He is a little closer to Elvis or to the European I1 look. :grin: If autosomal would be close to Nascimento, then it would be a proof that Y-DNA I1 has an influence.

Regio X
07-02-19, 23:17
Oh yes. He is a little closer to Elvis or to the European I1 look. :grin: If autosomal would be close to Nascimento, then it would be a proof that Y-DNA I1 has an influence.Milton Nascimento is 99.3% African. Djavan is 65% African.

Ygorcs
08-02-19, 02:00
Milton Nascimento is 99.3% African. Djavan is 65% African.

Really, is Nascimento 99.3% African? Then he is surprisingly a rare outlier among Brazilian blacks. Almost all studies I have seen claim that self-declared Brazilian blacks have around 30-50% (average ~40%) of non-African ancestry. Very few managed to avoid heavy mixing with Europeans and Amerindians along the generations, especially after the 19th century.

P.S.: By the way, I'm kind of amazed that you know Djavan and Milton Nascimento so well. They'very famous in Brazil (of course), but I thought mostly unknown elsewhere. ;-)

Regio X
08-02-19, 03:07
Really, is Nascimento 99.3% African? Then he is surprisingly a rare outlier among Brazilian blacks. Almost all studies I have seen claim that self-declared Brazilian blacks have around 30-50% (average ~40%) of non-African ancestry. Very few managed to avoid heavy mixing with Europeans and Amerindians along the generations, especially after the 19th century.
P.S.: By the way, I'm kind of amazed that you know Djavan and Milton Nascimento so well. They'very famous in Brazil (of course), but I thought mostly unknown elsewhere. ;-)Don't be surprised! I'm one of those Southerners Italo-Brazilians with dual citizenship. Cheers! ;)

I saw few time ago in a FTDNA Project a black Brazilian with more than 80% Sub-Saharan, if my memory serves me.

As for Milton and Djavan, yep! Really! Here are the sources:
https://www.bbc.com/portuguese/reporterbbc/story/2007/06/070531_dna_milton_cg.shtml

https://www.bbc.com/portuguese/reporterbbc/story/2007/05/070522_dna_djavan_cg.shtml

(In continental level, the precision and recall are usually decent nowadays, but they tested in 2007. So not sure about the quality.)

Ygorcs
08-02-19, 03:26
Don't be surprised! I'm one of those Southerners Italo-Brazilians with dual citizenship. Cheers! ;)

I saw few time ago in a FTDNA Project a black Brazilian with more than 80% Sub-Saharan, if my memory serves me.

As for Milton and Djavan, yep! Really! Here are the sources:
https://www.bbc.com/portuguese/reporterbbc/story/2007/06/070531_dna_milton_cg.shtml

https://www.bbc.com/portuguese/reporterbbc/story/2007/05/070522_dna_djavan_cg.shtml

(In continental level, the precision and recall are usually decent nowadays, but they tested in 2007. So not sure about the quality.)

Hahaha I KNEW that I couldn't be the sole Brazilian here when Brazilians usually flood all the social networks that they find. LOL Glad to meet (or rather re-meet) a fellow Brazilian here. ;-)

Yes, I had seen the results of the DNA tests reported in those BBC Brazil articles. But I also wondered how accurate they are since they were made so long ago. Anyway, I think any Brazilian black with more than 90% Subsaharan ancestry is kind of an outlier, they're even less numerous than peolpe virtually 100% European ancestry.

Regio X
08-02-19, 18:02
Hahaha I KNEW that I couldn't be the sole Brazilian here when Brazilians usually flood all the social networks that they find. LOL Glad to meet (or rather re-meet) a fellow Brazilian here. ;-)Lol Yes, it's nice to find a fellow here, especially one who promotes high level debates, as you do. Currently I paticipate in just two forums (one is minor). I chose learning in Eupedia, in short, because imo it has a balanced "traffic" and good content, thanks to the moderation and generally good discussions headlined by reasonable and knowledgeable members, as Angela, now you, and some others. Again, cheers! :)


Yes, I had seen the results of the DNA tests reported in those BBC Brazil articles. But I also wondered how accurate they are since they were made so long ago. Anyway, I think any Brazilian black with more than 90% Subsaharan ancestry is kind of an outlier, they're even less numerous than peolpe virtually 100% European ancestry.Yeah, I remember of the surprising results of Neguinho da Beija-Flor, who would be a black man with more European Ancestry than African. Perhaps mainly in Bahia and Rio de Janeiro you can find a good number of men with very high Sub-Saharan ancestry, but probably not in other areas. Just a guess. The same way, these "100% Europeans" may show up in certain areas, but they are indeed uncommon in Brazil as a whole. In very few generations they will be rare all over the country.

Neguinho da Beija-Flor (just 31.5% African?)
https://robertocarlospt.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/neguinho-da-beija-flor.jpg

Angela
09-02-19, 15:40
I've been on a "Queen", Freddie Mercury listening binge, and it finally occurred to me that his phenotype fits in too.

He was a Parsi from India, although I don't personally see any Indian in him. Instead, he looks very Caucasus like to me, which makes sense since they originated in Iran. Interestingly, before looking him up I always thought he was of European descent of some sort, just always with a tan. :) Compare him to Keith Hernandez who is half Spanish and half Scots Irish.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qqh1cVaoDpM/UILlTs8b3GI/AAAAAAAAImo/M5ymTfAXsb8/s1600/keith+hernandez+st.+louis+road+uni.jpg

It's amazing. This phenotype is indeed spread far and wide. How much "G" in Iran? :)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ksSdBOI1Ppk/Rj6SRf4UpcI/AAAAAAAAARo/mUVLOFKRcbA/s320/freddie.jpg

Of course, my image of him is always like this. :)

https://queenpoland.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/freddie-live-099.jpg

Gay or not, I always thought he was very sexy.

aleph
11-02-19, 00:45
Well the autosomal composition is (obviously) more important for the appearance of an individual, but if you are trying to look for some common appearance based on obscure parental lineages, then you won't find much luck (especially) with G2a since it is sort of a minority everywhere outside of modern day Georgia and hence the carriers would likely just resemble the general population that they are born into.

gidai
11-02-19, 11:23
Well the autosomal composition is (obviously) more important for the appearance of an individual, but if you are trying to look for some common appearance based on obscure parental lineages, then you won't find much luck (especially) with G2a since it is sort of a minority everywhere outside of modern day Georgia and hence the carriers would likely just resemble the general population that they are born into.
Most of those with I2 and G2 in the pictures come from Central and North Western Europe and less from the East. However, I2 and G2 have a long history of long-term coexistence from Neolithic until now in Europe, and you are right, autosomaly are probably very close now.

From these pictures, besides faces' expressions it seems to me, if not a coincidence, that G2 men has the lower part of the nose slightly wider, and more pronounced partial baldness appears in the front of the head.
About the difference between "aura" :smile: of the expression of the faces is more difficult to talk about.

aleph
11-02-19, 15:57
Most of those with I2 and G2 in the pictures come from Central and North Western Europe and less from the East. However, I2 and G2 have a long history of long-term coexistence from Neolithic until now in Europe, and you are right, autosomaly are probably very close now.

From these pictures, besides faces' expressions it seems to me, if not a coincidence, that G2 men has the lower part of the nose slightly wider, and more pronounced partial baldness appears in the front of the head.
About the difference between "aura" :smile: of the expression of the faces is more difficult to talk about.


The point about broad noses and baldness is strange/inconsistent since a high G2a population like Georgians seem to have quiet narrow noses and fairly modest foreheads for most of the part.

Angela
11-02-19, 17:36
Well the autosomal composition is (obviously) more important for the appearance of an individual, but if you are trying to look for some common appearance based on obscure parental lineages, then you won't find much luck (especially) with G2a since it is sort of a minority everywhere outside of modern day Georgia and hence the carriers would likely just resemble the general population that they are born into.

Completely agree.

I hope people aren't taking this too seriously.

Regio X
11-02-19, 20:32
Most of those with I2 and G2 in the pictures come from Central and North Western Europe and less from the East. However, I2 and G2 have a long history of long-term coexistence from Neolithic until now in Europe, and you are right, autosomaly are probably very close now.
From these pictures, besides faces' expressions it seems to me, if not a coincidence, that G2 men has the lower part of the nose slightly wider, and more pronounced partial baldness appears in the front of the head.
About the difference between "aura" :smile: of the expression of the faces is more difficult to talk about.Gidai, having a wider nose - or whatever - would mean having the so-called "aura", no? Or even much more than that. Well, I have relatives in male line whose noses are slim (not sure this is the word), and I'm myself a G-P303 like you (more specifically, G-L497). It seems kind of an illusory correlation then.
But allow me a digression using, anecdotelly, two certain friends (real people, but it doesn't matter who they are) - and good ones, despite their differences. One of them, who had his brother tested, is kind of fragile, cubbish and relatively short. He's what some people would call a "nerd", even if he's not such thing. The other one, also tested, is quite the opposite. Now, if you call someone to guess which haplogroup belongs to each one, the answer would be wrong more likely, given the cognitive biases. The "fragile" one descends in paternal line from the "Conans" - not an irony; just an exageration that serves the point - who founded (or dominated, if you prefer) roughly half of Europe. It represents both how stereotypes work and how autosomal as a whole, with its millions of polimorphisms, seems far more important than some mutations that defines Y hgs in general. Yeah, I know it's evident, especially putting this way, but that was my intention: stating the obvious, as aleph did above. Anyway, I use those guys as example because they're the only ones I know outside internet whose Y-DNAs were (in)directly tested (sure, the result could be extended to their relatives in male line), together with another family's, according to a match in 23andMe. The men in this another family would belong to a widespread haplogroup that someone called "the beast". Naturally, these men fluctuate from the "macho Malboro cowboy" style to the somewhat effeminate type, not to mention all physical differences and other kind of gradients. Easy to know why. It just came to my mind that story about an ant (representing a haplogroup here?) on the back of an elephant (autosomal?) running. The ant then said: hey, see how we make the dust fly! Lol
You could torture images till they confess some pattern, but come on! The huge differences, on the other hand, really scream. This is the only clear thing here. ;)
This should be enough, really, but as they say: "there are too many variables involved to make any meaningful conclusion". So let's keep the mind opened and try to understand it with the possible clues we have so far.

What is not so obvious is the absence of any minor influence at all, even virtually undetectable. Point is that this hypothetical minor influence of older "haplogroups" (not necessarily just macro-haplogroups) over phenotype, aside environmental factors, would likely belong to the ground of "big numbers"; it would be a big sampling issue. I.e., given a certain context, they could perhaps make a slight difference in averages, but they would be almost absolutely overshadowed by autosomal in the individual level, making virtually impossible to classify someone based on this supposed "aura". Again: this detectable aura wouldn't exist in practice, due to a huge overlapping imposed by Autosomal. So their influence would be comparatively (very) low, whereas autosomal's would be (very) high, hence the huge overlapping. If you allow me silly examples, never mind if a Y haplogroup would make, say, your nose 1 mm longer, or your aggressiveness 1 mm longer, he he he, or your sperm count jump from 100 to 110 million, if your autosomal can make much more than that. Unless you really believe that mutations related to this kind of haplogroups may equal autosomal or even surpass it in some really relevant ways, but the clues are against this hypothesis, apparently. We'd need more research, but additional mutations in subgroups could occasionaly make it more difficult to be done.

Obviously Y chromosome per se is pretty important, after all it makes us men, not to mention the role of certain mutations in health. Plus, that's what, say, the diffefence between liger and tigon suggests. However, lions and tigers are different species sepparated by millions of years, while some macro-haplogroups are sepparated by just ~30k years. Additionally, it's not only the Y chromosome that is different from each other (in liger and tigon), but also another whole recombined one: the X.
So, imo the role of haplogroups is possibly a bit overestimated by some people, either over phenotype or over their own expansion/reduction in frequency. This would be another related discussion. Perhaps they matter for frequency in the long term to a certain extent, but important populational changes in the past happened suddenly, as we know, and it looks like an exagerarion assign them to haplogroups. Correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation. Where would Occam razor point to? Lucky (in broad sense) and/or autosomal to some extent could explain "successes" more likely, it seems, even if not all the time (exceptions might confirm the rule)? Context matters*. Indeed, an haplogroup which are very common in certain places may be for some reason uncommon in other places, even in those where it has a relatively long presence. And frequent haplogroups may have sister clades that are not common at all. There was no "equality" between subclades, at least till not much time ago. Plus, most of haplogroups which are very common today suffered severe bottlenecks and flirted with extinction (sometimes with "competition" between their own carrying men, other times also with others - which would matter more in this discussion), like the one we were talking about: I1 (among many others, of course, and not that just competition explains it). Between more than 20k and 5k years ago, just one I1 man in each generation left patrilineal descendants living today. Take out one of them and bye bye the I1 as we know it now. How many lines were extinct since the time of the most recent common ancestor of all living men? Hard to guess. Perhaps "the best" (whatever it means) went extinct, he he he. Who knows! :) Apparently, at least till few thousands of years ago, it was kind of a lottery. You know, in lotteries, the chances a certain specific person will take the prize are low, but the chances some lucky bastard will take it are high. ;)

(Haplogroups would be kind of abstractions; in certain sense, they don't live and die: people carrying the related mutations do. But you got what I meant in all this talking, je je je.)

Finally, not to say I don't care about haplogroups. I do. I've my intellectual curiosities in this regard, and populational genetics provides me some fun. :)

*See how Italy became more vulnerable due to its internal divisions, which may have impacted its Y-DNA pool in certain areas, or how some Middle Eastern hgs will grow in frequency in Europe due to higher fertility of immigrants, or consider the mere "will to kill", when a nation or group of people do have the ways to decimate other group, and they do it or don't do it depending on diverse circumstances... And on and on. The examples multiply.

Conclusion is: assigning this to hgs seems a too simplistic solution for a too complex reality. Angela is right. This shouldn't be taken too seriously. I just decided to give the issue some thought, 'cause it shows up here from time to time. My two cents, and I'm done! :)

ED: just a little correction.

Regio X
11-02-19, 20:39
I've been on a "Queen", Freddie Mercury listening binge, and it finally occurred to me that his phenotype fits in too.

He was a Parsi from India, although I don't personally see any Indian in him. Instead, he looks very Caucasus like to me, which makes sense since they originated in Iran. Interestingly, before looking him up I always thought he was of European descent of some sort, just always with a tan. :) Compare him to Keith Hernandez who is half Spanish and half Scots Irish.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qqh1cVaoDpM/UILlTs8b3GI/AAAAAAAAImo/M5ymTfAXsb8/s1600/keith+hernandez+st.+louis+road+uni.jpg

It's amazing. This phenotype is indeed spread far and wide. How much "G" in Iran? :)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ksSdBOI1Ppk/Rj6SRf4UpcI/AAAAAAAAARo/mUVLOFKRcbA/s320/freddie.jpg

Of course, my image of him is always like this. :)

https://queenpoland.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/freddie-live-099.jpg

Gay or not, I always thought he was very sexy.It looks a good example. He does have this looking, and we know G-M201 is relatively common in Caucasus, especially in North Ossetia (~70%), South Ossetia, Circassia, Georgia... Whereas it's not common outside.


Well the autosomal composition is (obviously) more important for the appearance of an individual, but if you are trying to look for some common appearance based on obscure parental lineages, then you won't find much luck (especially) with G2a since it is sort of a minority everywhere outside of modern day Georgia and hence the carriers would likely just resemble the general population that they are born into.I tend to agree, except that even a low % over a big number means lots of people for comparison.

Angela
11-02-19, 21:37
Just for curiosity's sake, I looked up the genetics of the Zoroastrian Iranians:


"Furthermore, a recent study using genome-wide autosomal DNA found that haplotype (https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/haplotype) patterns in Iranian Zoroastrians matched more than other modern Iranian groups to a high-coverage early Neolithic farmer genome from Iran.12 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929717302914#bib12)"






Parsis seem to be from about 64%-76% Iranian, which explains his looks. Interestingly, I saw a picture of his mother and she looks very Indian.




In terms of yDna, lots and lots of J, which I assume is J2.





https://i.imgur.com/3aEnLiK.png

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0002929717302914-mmc1.pdf

gidai
11-02-19, 22:16
Gidai, having a wider nose - or whatever - would mean having the so-called "aura", no? Or even much more than that. Well, I have relatives in male line whose noses are slim (not sure this is the word), and I'm myself a G-P303 like you (more specifically, G-L497). It seems kind of an illusory correlation then.
But allow me a digression using, anedoctelly, two certain friends (real people, but it doesn't matter who they are) - and good ones, despite their differences. One of them, who had his brother tested, is kind of fragile, cubbish and relatively short. He's what some people would call a "nerd", even if he's not such thing. The other one, also tested, is quite the opposite. Now, if you call someone to guess which haplogroup belongs to each one, the answer would be wrong more likely, given the cognitive biases. The "fragile" one descends in paternal line from the "Conans" - not an irony; just an exageration that serves the point - who founded (or dominated, if you prefer) roughly half of Europe. It represents both how stereotypes work and how autosomal as a whole, with its millions of polimorphisms, seems far more important than some mutations that defines Y hgs in general. Yeah, I know it's evident, especially putting this way, but that was my intention: stating the obvious, as aleph did above. Anyway, I use those guys as example because they're the only ones I know outside internet whose Y-DNAs were (in)directly tested (sure, the result could be extended to their relatives in male line), together with another family's, according to a match in 23andMe. The men in this another family would belong to a widespread haplogroup that someone called "the beast". Naturally, these men fluctuate from the "macho Malboro cowboy" style to the somewhat effeminate type, not to mention all physical differences and other kind of gradients. Easy to know why. It just came to my mind that story about an ant (representing a haplogroup here?) on the back of an elephant (autosomal?) running. The ant then said: hey, see how we make the dust fly! Lol
You could torture images till they confess some pattern, but come on! The huge differences, on the other hand, really scream. This is the only clear thing here. ;)
This should be enough, really, but as they say: "there are too many variables involved to make any meaningful conclusion". So let's keep the mind opened and try to understand it with the possible clues we have so far.
What is not so obvious is the absence of any minor influence at all, even virtually undetectable. Point is that this hypothetical minor influence of older "haplogroups" (not necessarily just macro-haplogroups) over phenotype, aside environmental factors, would likely belong to the ground of "big numbers"; it would be a big sampling issue. I.e., given a certain context, they could perhaps make a slight difference in averages, but they would be almost absolutely overshadowed by autosomal in the individual level, making virtually impossible to classify someone based on this supposed "aura". Again: this detectable aura wouldn't exist in practice, due to a huge overlapping imposed by Autosomal. So their influence would be comparatively (very) low, whereas autosomal's would be (very) high, hence the huge overlapping. If you allow me silly examples, never mind if a Y haplogroup would make, say, your nose 1 mm longer, or your aggressiveness 1 mm longer, he he he, or your sperm count jump from 100 to 110 million, if your autosomal can make much more than that. Unless you really believe that mutations related to this kind of haplogroups may equal autosomal or even surpass it in some really relevant ways, but the clues are against this hypothesis, apparently. We'd need more research, but additional mutations in subgroups could occasionaly make it more difficult to be done.
Obviously Y chromosome per se is pretty important, after all it makes us men, not to mention the role of certain mutations in health. Plus, that's what, say, the diffefence between liger and tigon suggests. However, lions and tigers are different species sepparated by millions of years, while some macro-haplogroups are sepparated by just ~30k years. Additionally, it's not only the Y chromosome that is different from each other (in liger and tigon), but also another whole recombined one: the X.
So, imo the role of haplogroups is possibly a bit overestimated by some people, either over phenotype or over their own expansion/reduction in frequency. This would be another related discussion. Perhaps they matter for frequency in the long term to a certain extent, but important populational changes in the past happened suddenly, as we know, and it looks like an exagerarion assign them to haplogroups. Correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation. Where would Occam razor point to? Lucky (in broad sense) and/or autosomal to some extent could explain "successes" more likely, it seems, even if not all the time (exceptions might confirm the rule)? Context matters*. Indeed, an haplogroup which are very common in certain places may be for some reason uncommon in other places, even in those where it has a relatively long presence. And frequent haplogroups may have sister clades that are not common at all. There was no "equality" between subclades, at least till not much time ago. Plus, most of haplogroups which are very common today suffered severe bottlenecks and flirted with extinction (sometimes with "competition" between their own carrying men, other times also with others - which would matter more in this discussion), like the one we were talking about: I1 (among many others, of course, and not that just competition explains it). Between more than 20k and 5k years ago, just one I1 man in each generation left patrilineal descendants living today. Take out one of them and bye bye the I1 as we know it now. How many lines were extinct since the time of the most recent common ancestor of all living men? Hard to guess. Perhaps "the best" (whatever it means) went extinct, he he he. Who knows! :) Apparently, at least till few thousands of years ago, it was kind of a lottery. You know, in lotteries, the chances a certain specific person will take the prize are low, but the chances some lucky bastard will take it are high. ;)
(Haplogroups would be kind of abstractions; in certain sense, they don't live and die: people carrying the related mutations do. But you got what I meant in all this talking, je je je.)
Finally, not to say I don't care about haplogroups. I do. I've my intellectual curiosities in this regard, and genetic genealogy provides me some fun. :)
*See how Italy became more vulnerable due to its internal divisions, which may have impacted its Y-DNA pool in certain areas, or how some Middle Eastern hgs will grow in frequency in Europe due to higher fertility of immigrants, or consider the mere "will to kill", when a nation or group of people do have the ways to decimate other group, and they do it or don't do it depending on diverse circumstances... And on and on. The examples multiply.
Conclusion is: assigning this to hgs seems a too simplistic solution for a too complex reality. Angela is right. This shouldn't be taken too seriously. I just decided to give the issue some thought, 'cause it shows up here from time to time. My two cents, and I'm done! :)
Thanks for your wonderful examples! I understand what you say.
Indeed, the autosomal part speaks its word first. But also the different living environment. So it is very difficult to filter the differences that may result from the influences of different haplogroups.

Regio X
11-02-19, 23:46
Thanks for your wonderful examples! I understand what you say.
Indeed, the autosomal part speaks its word first. But also the different living environment. So it is very difficult to filter the differences that may result from the influences of different haplogroups.I'm glad they helped.
I was thinking, that one on Italy is a bit off, but ok. The influence to which I referred happened too early, so the example doesn't make much sense. Anyway, the point was to show the importance of casual events and contexts in general. There would be a big menu. Just use the imagination.

@Angela
So the odds are he was J2, also common in Caucasus. But G2 is not exactly common in Iran. :)

Angela
12-02-19, 03:13
I'm glad they helped.
I was thinking, that one on Italy is a bit off, but ok. The influence to which I referred happened too early, so the example doesn't make much sense. Anyway, the point was to show the importance of casual events and contexts in general. There would be a big menu. Just use the imagination.

@Angela

So the odds are he was J2, also common in Caucasus. But G2 is not exactly common in Iran. :)

My point exactly. It's a Caucasus/Iranian type look, not specifically a G2a look, although my husband is G2a and has a bit of it.

It's complicated. :)

I was struck by the fact that the Iranian Zoroastrians are the closest to the pretty old Iran Neo sample.

It's a look definitely there among the Georgians, reduced and feminized among the women.
https://d1bvpoagx8hqbg.cloudfront.net/originals/amazing-georgian-traditional-dance-af301eddefa88fe79339154b4e4938f7.jpg

Stalin:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Stalin_1902.jpg

gidai
12-02-19, 16:11
As Maciamo suggests here (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32833-Does-Y-DNA-influence-one-s-looks-after-all/page2?p=490628&viewfull=1#post490628), a study of clones but with different Y-DNA corresponding to different haplogroups could clarify if/what the differences are. Clones would be good because they would eliminate the variability caused by different autosomal DNA. Genetic engineering stuff.

Regio X
12-02-19, 21:37
As Maciamo suggests here (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32833-Does-Y-DNA-influence-one-s-looks-after-all/page2?p=490628&viewfull=1#post490628), a study of clones but with different Y-DNA corresponding to different haplogroups could clarify if/what the differences are. Clones would be good because they would eliminate the variability caused by different autosomal DNA. Genetic engineering stuff.Even twins are not really equal, and environmental factors could be somewhat misleading here, unless the differences turned out to be substancial, which would be unlikely imo. Anyway, it would be a good test.

Not directly related, so off-topic, but it's worth to mention epigenetics as well. Its influence has been discussed. Some related articles, out of curiosity:
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-observe-epigenetic-memories-passed-down-for-14-generations-most-animal/amp
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170717100548.htm
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/356/6335/320
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41556-018-0242-9


My point exactly. It's a Caucasus/Iranian type look, not specifically a G2a look, although my husband is G2a and has a bit of it.

It's complicated. :)

I was struck by the fact that the Iranian Zoroastrians are the closest to the pretty old Iran Neo sample.

It's a look definitely there among the Georgians, reduced and feminized among the women.
https://d1bvpoagx8hqbg.cloudfront.net/originals/amazing-georgian-traditional-dance-af301eddefa88fe79339154b4e4938f7.jpg

Stalin:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Stalin_1902.jpgI confess I didn't know about his Iranian origin. I thought he was Indian in ancestry. And I didn't know Zoroastrians are the most Iran Neo in the world. Interesting!
I myself seem to have some extra-Iran Neo compared to other NE Italians, but I think I'm pretty different from Iranians and people related. Perhaps the deep-set eyes (how do you call it when the eyes seem to be inside a cave? lol)? I don't know if this trait would be related more closely to the people in Caucasus though.
I used to think I resembled a bit Christian Vieri based on soccer games I've watched time ago, but I just saw some pictures again and nah. Not so similar. :)

How old was Stalin in that picture? Very different from his older version.
https://www.atomicheritage.org/sites/default/files/Stalin_in_July_1941.jpg

In this picture he seems closer to his young version:
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/EVYfyTkM7zzSHPs8bsj492clGu0=/0x0:5263x3543/920x613/filters:focal(2043x1037:2885x1879):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/51519253/GettyImages-541038943.0.jpg

G2ian
12-02-19, 22:05
Georgian here, Freddy looks nothing like a Georgian. If I saw him in the street I'd think he was an Iranian tourist. G2a has a huge percentage among western Georgians but is very low in eastern Georgians, so you'll need to look at "Svans" who are oldest and least mixed of G2a groups here, which means both men and women would carry the "closest to original" G2a look. And here's the pic of the oldest Svan man available from 1800s
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Old_peasant_with_dagger_and_long_smoking_pipe%2C_M estia%2C_Svanetia%2C_Georgia_%28Republic%29.Color. jpg
Looks to me like Bryan Cranston tbh.

Angela
12-02-19, 22:21
Even twins are not really equal, and environmental factors could be somewhat misleading here, unless the differences turned out to be substancial, which would be unlikely imo. Anyway, it would be a good test.

Not directly related, so off-topic, but it's worth to mention epigenetics as well. Its influence has been discussed. Some related articles, out of curiosity:
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-observe-epigenetic-memories-passed-down-for-14-generations-most-animal/amp
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170717100548.htm
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/356/6335/320
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41556-018-0242-9

I confess I didn't know about his Iranian origin. I thought he was Indian in ancestry. And I didn't know Zoroastrians are the most Iran Neo in the world. Interesting!
I myself seem to have some extra-Iran Neo compared to other NE Italians, but I think I'm pretty different from Iranians and people related. Perhaps the deep-set eyes (how do you call it when the eyes seem to be inside a cave? lol)? I don't know if this trait would be related more closely to the people in Caucasus though.
I used to think I resembled a bit Christian Vieri based on soccer games I've watched time ago, but I just saw some pictures again and nah. Not so similar. :)

How old was Stalin in that picture? Very different from his older version.
https://www.atomicheritage.org/sites/default/files/Stalin_in_July_1941.jpg

In this picture he seems closer to his young version:
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/EVYfyTkM7zzSHPs8bsj492clGu0=/0x0:5263x3543/920x613/filters:focal(2043x1037:2885x1879):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/51519253/GettyImages-541038943.0.jpg

He was 22, a "young revolutionary". He looks it. Of course, he was probably already spying for the secret police by then. He was both a sociopath and psychopath imo. Every country has their share.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&id=2088C40AC24FD241D72F37208D2851B47DFF0BED&thid=OIP.FxiQvLnqHpHug6UP_nyfhwHaJn&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F564x%2Fda%2F29%2F57%2Fda29572f137 959ed5fa4898f71320b30.jpg&exph=700&expw=539&q=stalin+teenage&selectedindex=0&ajaxhist=0&vt=0&eim=0,1
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/da/29/57/da29572f137959ed5fa4898f71320b30.jpg

Quite fetching when young, not so much so when older...

I think with age and more weight, the jaw line becomes much more pronounced, and the face wider? It happened to Freddy too.

It's interesting how certain groups really have a limited "range" in terms of phenotype. It's so different from Italians.

The Parsis are a really interesting group. Amazing how India seems to lend itself to endogamy in every group.

Some other Indian Parsis:

The great Zubin Mehta:
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/zubin-mehta-indian-parsi-conductor-of-western-classical-music-in-new-picture-id481630747?s=612x612

He looks more Indian in old age.

John Abraham-actor
http://static.dnaindia.com/sites/default/files/styles/half/public/2017/07/30/597099-john-abraham-073117.jpg?itok=yEux9blg

G2ian
12-02-19, 22:35
Gyllenhaal does look like a typical Georgian too. In fact I have a friend that looks like his mirror image.

Yetos
13-02-19, 00:07
I do not believe that Y-Dna is main characteristic of phenotype,
some effects due to some ormones etc maybe,
but I do not think that Y-DNA affects or determines phenotype marks
anyway,

I am G2a,
and most friends say I look like him,
with mark of chin and the chin looking down, not infront

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2ssFtGFHjcs/UEkbd68zfeI/AAAAAAAAQYc/3jJc4YgiSR4/s1600/el_indio.jpg


make it brown eyes hairs,

https://kemes.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/cf84cf85cf87cebfceb4ceb9cf8ecebacf84ceb5cf82-cf84ceb7cf82-cebacebfcebbceaccf83ceb5cf89cf82.jpg

Regio X
13-02-19, 14:12
Anyway, it would be a good test. Apart the ethical matter, of course.


Georgian here, Freddy looks nothing like a Georgian. If I saw him in the street I'd think he was an Iranian tourist. G2a has a huge percentage among western Georgians but is very low in eastern Georgians, so you'll need to look at "Svans" who are oldest and least mixed of G2a groups here, which means both men and women would carry the "closest to original" G2a look. And here's the pic of the oldest Svan man available from 1800s
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Old_peasant_with_dagger_and_long_smoking_pipe%2C_M estia%2C_Svanetia%2C_Georgia_%28Republic%29.Color. jpg
Looks to me like Bryan Cranston tbh.Yeah, the Western Caucasus is heavier in G-M201. Adygean perhaps has even more than Svans/Abkhazians? Btw, would be G2a1 more common in Georgia and G2a2 in NW? What's yours, if I may ask?


He was 22, a "young revolutionary". He looks it. Of course, he was probably already spying for the secret police by then. He was both a sociopath and psychopath imo. Every country has their share.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&id=2088C40AC24FD241D72F37208D2851B47DFF0BED&thid=OIP.FxiQvLnqHpHug6UP_nyfhwHaJn&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F564x%2Fda%2F29%2F57%2Fda29572f137 959ed5fa4898f71320b30.jpg&exph=700&expw=539&q=stalin+teenage&selectedindex=0&ajaxhist=0&vt=0&eim=0,1
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/da/29/57/da29572f137959ed5fa4898f71320b30.jpg
Quite fetching when young, not so much so when older...
I think with age and more weight, the jaw line becomes much more pronounced, and the face wider? It happened to Freddy too.
It's interesting how certain groups really have a limited "range" in terms of phenotype. It's so different from Italians.
The Parsis are a really interesting group. Amazing how India seems to lend itself to endogamy in every group.
Some other Indian Parsis:
The great Zubin Mehta:
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/zubin-mehta-indian-parsi-conductor-of-western-classical-music-in-new-picture-id481630747?s=612x612
He looks more Indian in old age.
John Abraham-actor
http://static.dnaindia.com/sites/default/files/styles/half/public/2017/07/30/597099-john-abraham-073117.jpg?itok=yEux9blgThanks.
Yeah, probably a psycho (which would make him a sociopath too).

It's really amazing the variation in Italy, sometimes even in the same region. I think my paternal family is pretty different from my maternal family, for example. The former tend to be tall, black haired and brown eyed (inheritance of my father's paternal grandparents mainly), while the maternal are shorter and more Northern shifted (some of them even exaggeratedly, as an uncle): light haired and light eyed. I'm not knowledgeble in this matter, but I'd risk to say my paternal family is more shifted to (South) Balkan in looking? The maternal, on the other hand, more shifted to Austria/S. Germany? Both father and mother virtually full Venetians in ancestry, with a father's paternal grandmother being the exception, from Mantova province.


I do not believe that Y-Dna is main characteristic of phenotype,
some effects due to some ormones etc maybe,
but I do not think that Y-DNA affects or determines phenotype marks
anyway,
I am G2a,
and most friends say I look like him,
with mark of chin and the chin looking down, not infront
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2ssFtGFHjcs/UEkbd68zfeI/AAAAAAAAQYc/3jJc4YgiSR4/s1600/el_indio.jpg
make it brown eyes hairs,
https://kemes.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/cf84cf85cf87cebfceb4ceb9cf8ecebacf84ceb5cf82-cf84ceb7cf82-cebacebfcebbceaccf83ceb5cf89cf82.jpgHey, I remember him. I've watched Per Un Pugno di Dollari and Per Qualche Dollaro in Più - great Morricone, great Leone! :) I see he acted also in L'armata Brancaleone, but I confess I don't remember him in this one.

ED: little correction.

Angela
13-02-19, 23:15
Apart the ethical matter, of course.

Yeah, the Western Caucasus is heavier in G-M201. Adygean perhaps has even more than Svans/Abkhazians? Btw, would be G2a1 more common in Georgia and G2a2 in NW? What's yours, if I may ask?

Thanks.
Yeah, probably a psycho (which would make him a sociopath too).

It's really amazing the variation in Italy, sometimes even in the same region. I think my paternal family is pretty different from my maternal family, for example. The former tend to be tall, black haired and brown eyed (inheritance of my father's paternal grandparent mainly), while the maternal are shorter and more Northern shifted (some of them even exaggeratedly, as an uncle): light haired and light eyed. I'm not knowledgeble in this matter, but I'd risk to say my paternal family is more shifted to (South) Balkan in looking? The maternal, on the other hand, more shifted to Austria/S. Germany? Both father and mother virtually full Venetians in ancestry, with a father's paternal grandmother being the exception, from Mantova province.

Hey, I remember him. I've watched Per Un Pugno di Dollari and Per Qualche Dollaro in Più - great Morricone, great Leone! :) I see he acted also in L'armata Brancaleone, but I confess I don't remember him in this one.

It's the same in my family. The distance, as the crow flies, between the Appennino Parmense and the Lunigiana is very small, less than 50 kilometers in some places? It's not even that far to the La Spezia of my maternal grandfather, whom my mother most resembles. Yet, my father and mother are completely different phenotypically. Both Italian, though. :)

I guess part of it is that some of the highest peaks of the Apennines lie between their ancestral homelands, but still...

G2ian
14-02-19, 01:44
Apart the ethical matter, of course.

Yeah, the Western Caucasus is heavier in G-M201. Adygean perhaps has even more than Svans/Abkhazians? Btw, would be G2a1 more common in Georgia and G2a2 in NW? What's yours, if I may ask?


Well Caucasus consists of tribes and it has a very rigid East-West divide. East being mostly J and West being G. the mix outside their native zones is probably the trickle and movement throughout the centuries. When we put results as "Georgia" being 30% etc it's a bit deceiving because Georgia is sort of a tiny Empire that breached the East/West divide. So it would be more accurate if we look at data on tribe by tribe basis. Last time I checked Among Svans the G2a was about to hit 80% which is highest of any group. You could find a lot of strands all over Caucasus that have Svan heritage, for example Ossetians seem to have links to Svan, this gave way to hypothesis that big part of Ossetians aren't really Alan but descended from Dvals(now extinct group closely related to Svans) who were a group inhabiting the area before Alans. It's likely that the tribe was assimilated by Alans during their heyday in north Caucasus.

Anyone who is remotely interested in the haplogroup G and it's history should pay close attention to testing of Svan people. It is a very strange and unique case, Highest density of G in the world with a lot of diversity and very old strands as well. Here's a nice article. https://sciencetrends.com/deep-history-caucasus-beginning-revealed-genetic-sequencing/

I'd like to start a separate thread about Svans, but due to me being a mere enthusiast and having close to 0 understanding of the actual genetics I'd ask someone more educated on the subject to do so. I'll gladly provide sources, and translate any Georgian/Russian when i find them.

gidai
14-02-19, 11:51
Anyone who is remotely interested in the haplogroup G and it's history should pay close attention to testing of Svan people. It is a very strange and unique case, Highest density of G in the world with a lot of diversity and very old strands as well. Here's a nice article. https://sciencetrends.com/deep-history-caucasus-beginning-revealed-genetic-sequencing/

I've found the detailed study here (http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/Yardumian-ea-17-Genetic-diversity-in-Svaneti.pdf). I do not understand much of the specialist terms, but I think the very large number of G2a haplotypes found in Svan could indicate the area as an outbreak of spreading this haplogrup through new subclades? I also rely these with the fact that in the Caucasus and especially in Georgia are a very high number of new born boys/girls (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/2012_Birth_Sex_Ratio_World_Map.jpg) in the ratio of 1,16.

Regio X
14-02-19, 13:46
It's the same in my family. The distance, as the crow flies, between the Appennino Parmense and the Lunigiana is very small, less than 50 kilometers in some places? It's not even that far to the La Spezia of my maternal grandfather, whom my mother most resembles. Yet, my father and mother are completely different phenotypically. Both Italian, though. :)
I guess part of it is that some of the highest peaks of the Apennines lie between their ancestral homelands, but still...This regional diversity, like in Veneto for example, is not so surprising when it comes to Italy! Imo all these variations make it one of the most interesting countries also under a genetic point of view. Sometimes we notice relatively big variations even between siblings, but I stop here. Enough! :)


Well Caucasus consists of tribes and it has a very rigid East-West divide. East being mostly J and West being G. the mix outside their native zones is probably the trickle and movement throughout the centuries. When we put results as "Georgia" being 30% etc it's a bit deceiving because Georgia is sort of a tiny Empire that breached the East/West divide. So it would be more accurate if we look at data on tribe by tribe basis. Last time I checked Among Svans the G2a was about to hit 80% which is highest of any group. You could find a lot of strands all over Caucasus that have Svan heritage, for example Ossetians seem to have links to Svan, this gave way to hypothesis that big part of Ossetians aren't really Alan but descended from Dvals(now extinct group closely related to Svans) who were a group inhabiting the area before Alans. It's likely that the tribe was assimilated by Alans during their heyday in north Caucasus.
Anyone who is remotely interested in the haplogroup G and it's history should pay close attention to testing of Svan people. It is a very strange and unique case, Highest density of G in the world with a lot of diversity and very old strands as well. Here's a nice article. https://sciencetrends.com/deep-history-caucasus-beginning-revealed-genetic-sequencing/
I'd like to start a separate thread about Svans, but due to me being a mere enthusiast and having close to 0 understanding of the actual genetics I'd ask someone more educated on the subject to do so. I'll gladly provide sources, and translate any Georgian/Russian when i find them.Nice clarifying, G2ian. Thanks!

I didn't know the frequency in them is that high. If Svans are related to Ossetians, then I assume they are mostly G2a1 (in Italy, I guess you find it mainly in Marche). The frequency of G2a among Shapsugs in Russia reaches almost that, btw, but they would be G2a2-U1 mainly, while the highest concentrations of G-M201 would have been found in Kazakhstan, among Madjars (86.7%) from Torgay area, and Argyns (Basmyl). These are G1, which highest diversity is found in Iran/E. Turkey.

Still about diversity, I'm not sure it's high in Svanetia. At least according to Rootsi et al, the SNP diversity (better than STR diversity imo) of G-M201 in Caucasus is low (in opposition to frequency), while it's high in Armenia (the highest, even if at relatively low frequencies), NW Iran and E. Turkey, so these areas are good candidates for the origin of the MRCA of G-M201, from ~26k years ago. As for the place of formation abt. 50k years ago, I definetely buy Bicicleur hypothesis, which states it would have formed closer to the (likely Eastern) area where GHIJK, HIJK etc. themselves formed also ~50k years ago. But in these cases the TMRCAs are close to the times of formation. It makes sense.

Regio X
14-02-19, 16:44
If Svans are related to Ossetians, then I assume they are mostly G2a1 (in Italy, I guess you find it mainly in Marche)[email protected] @Gidai
Merely out of curiosity, I remember that someone registered, in the old YSearch, STR markers supposedly from Messi. They pointed to G2a1. Some people thought it was strange, since it's rare in Europe as a whole. Well, Barcelona's players did have their DNAs tested time ago, and his father's paternal grandfather was from Recanati-MC, Marche. If my memory serves, both Boattini (prediction based on STRs) and Ethnopedia show %s above traces for G2a1 in Macerata (~5%?) and Marche (also ~5% - access 2017 May), respectively, hard to find in other places in Europe, apparently. So in fact the result wouldn't be out of the place. Obviously, they may be fake, since any one could register STR markers in there and put whatever name. Still... Who knows!

That said, here is Messi (G2a1???)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Lionel_Messi_20180626.jpg

G2a-L293 Eupedia Map

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-G2a-L293.png

Province of Macerata

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Macerata_in_Italy.svg/500px-Macerata_in_Italy.svg.png

See also:
https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/barcelona-dna-testing-advantage-over-arsenal
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3456465/Barcelona-breaking-mould-DNA-testing-La-Liga-giants-prepare-Champions-League-clash-Arsenal.html
(However, these articles are from the beginning of 2016, while the supposed results of Messi were already in YSearch around 2015 July (when someone posted about it here in Eupedia. So, don't know!)

@Gidai
This is James Franciscus - from Planet of the Apes -, G2b (former G2c).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/James_Franciscus_1977.JPG

gidai
14-02-19, 18:00
@Regio X
I think, Messi have the "aura" of a Caucasian or Svan(G2a1) men, but Franciscus also of an Englishman.
If they are both G2, we have for sure a common graaa...andfather with them some... 1000 generations ago.:smile:

Regio X
14-02-19, 19:08
@Regio X
I think, Messi have the "aura" of a Caucasian or Svan(G2a1) men, but Franciscus also of an Englishman.
If they are both G2, we have for sure a common graaa...andfather with them some... 1000 generations ago.:smile:Franciscus is/was G2b. We just don't know about Messi. The register of his supposed results in YSearch preceded a bit the publicity that Barcelona's players tested their DNAs. Still, it's not enough for conclusions, obviously.

Yeah, according to YFull, G2a and G2b separated ~20800 years ago; G2a1 and G2a2, ~18100 years ago.

gidai
15-02-19, 15:53
Many people from this film have close physiognomy to the South Carpathians peasants where all my grand-grandparents come from. I think that they also comes close to the physiognomy of many Balkan inhabitants and around the Black Sea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyYXypEAmjQ

G2ian
15-02-19, 19:38
Many people from this film have close physiognomy to the South Carpathians peasants where all my grand-grandparents come from. I think that they also comes close to the physiognomy of many Balkan inhabitants and around the Black Sea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyYXypEAmjQ
I agree, I noticed long time ago that some Balkan people look very similar to western Georgians. There must have been a relative group that survived on Balkans. Maykop traces perhaps ? They are known to have lived on the east side of Black sea but what would stop them from spreading across the western shores ? While they were researching Svan DNA they did find a few strands closely related to Balkans.

gidai
15-02-19, 20:45
I agree, I noticed long time ago that some Balkan people look very similar to western Georgians. There must have been a relative group that survived on Balkans. Maykop traces perhaps ? They are known to have lived on the east side of Black sea but what would stop them from spreading across the western shores ? While they were researching Svan DNA they did find a few strands closely related to Balkans.Very interesting!
So it is some amount of common DNA in the Balkans and Georgia. In addition to the latest data, in Romania we have a frequency of G2a of at least 7%, and mtDNA X2 over 5% that are rare in Europe but have the largest frequency in Georgia. X2 is only found in Druze in a larger proportion.
And I am really G2a and coincidentally... I have also mtDNA X2. :rolleyes2:

G2ian
15-02-19, 21:14
Very interesting!
So it is some amount of common DNA in the Balkans and Georgia. In addition to the latest data, in Romania we have a frequency of G2a of at least 7%, and mtDNA X2 over 5% that are rare in Europe but have the largest frequency in Georgia. X2 is only found in Druze in a larger proportion.
And I am really G2a and coincidentally... I have also mtDNA X2. :rolleyes2:
Could part of Vlachs have Pontic/Caucasian ancestry ? I know they were considered Latin but were they Latinized locals or resettled Romans ?

I wonder if there has been any anthropological research comparing Carpathians with Caucasians.

Regio X
15-02-19, 22:32
Very interesting!
So it is some amount of common DNA in the Balkans and Georgia. In addition to the latest data, in Romania we have a frequency of G2a of at least 7%, and mtDNA X2 over 5% that are rare in Europe but have the largest frequency in Georgia. X2 is only found in Druze in a larger proportion.
And I am really G2a and coincidentally... I have also mtDNA X2. :rolleyes2:Where have you tested? Are you G-P303* or G-P303 (no test further)?

gidai
15-02-19, 23:02
Could part of Vlachs have Pontic/Caucasian ancestry ? I know they were considered Latin but were they Latinized locals or resettled Romans ?

I wonder if there has been any anthropological research comparing Carpathians with Caucasians.I do not know about comparative studies between the Carpathians and the Caucasians. But it would be very interesting.
Aromanians or Vlachs are also G2a but not at great frequency. I'm thinking also of older links. People in the Cucuteni culture, more north and west of the Black Sea, could be a bridge? Recently it was discovered that they carried the G2a haplogrup in an overwhelming proportion. There is also the connection from the south, from Anatolia of course.

gidai
15-02-19, 23:18
Where have you tested? Are you G-P303* or G-P303 (no test further)?P303 I'm for sure. But then I found only the snp for L13 without the intermediate links... Who know further?

Irakli
16-02-19, 15:38
Angela, I'm from Georgia and I am well aware of how other Caucasians look as well and I can tell you that he does not look like a Caucasian. He has a Persian look to him, although if he had a slightly larger nose and/or a more pronounced brow ridge then he would pass as a Caucasian for sure.

Angela
16-02-19, 19:32
I'm sure there are differences which locals can spot and outsiders can't.

The point is that some Iranians also have a "Caucasus" phenotype just as the "Caucasus" component is a big part of their genome. That phenotype spread throughout the Near East and beyond with the movement of people who carried it.

(If you were talking about Freddie Mercury, other than his terrible teeth, I think he's quite good looking. :) He has clean cut "pure" features and gorgeous eyes and hair, well, when he let it grow.)

https://www.opnlttr.com/sites/default/files/data-uscita-film-freddie-mercury2.jpg

Also, as I've discovered from various population genetics papers, there's a lot of genetic diversity in Iran, which is bound to manifest in phenotypic diversity. They by no means all look like this.

Regio X
16-02-19, 20:44
I'm sure there are differences which locals can spot and outsiders can't.Agreed. And perhaps there are similarities which outsiders can spot and locals can't. :)

G2ian
16-02-19, 22:05
I'm sure there are differences which locals can spot and outsiders can't.

The point is that some Iranians also have a "Caucasus" phenotype just as the "Caucasus" component is a big part of their genome. That phenotype spread throughout the Near East and beyond with the movement of people who carried it.

(If you were talking about Freddie Mercury, other than his terrible teeth, I think he's quite good looking. :) He has clean cut "pure" features and gorgeous eyes and hair, well, when he let it grow.)

Also, as I've discovered from various population genetics papers, there's a lot of genetic diversity in Iran, which is bound to manifest in phenotypic diversity. They by no means all look like this.
We're not disagreeing with you because we think he looks bad, no :) I just think he looks more European than Caucasian. I wouldn't be surprised if genetically he's mostly Indo-European with some middle eastern mix. Hell that kind of face is far more common in Europe and among European-Americans than in Caucasus. Don't confuse dark complexion with non European look. Armenians often Look more European than Caucasian if only their skin tones were lighter. For example Freddy reminds me of Andrew Lincoln more than any Georgian I've met.
10763

Angela
16-02-19, 22:52
We're not disagreeing with you because we think he looks bad, no :) I just think he looks more European than Caucasian. I wouldn't be surprised if genetically he's mostly Indo-European with some middle eastern mix. Hell that kind of face is far more common in Europe and among European-Americans than in Caucasus. Don't confuse dark complexion with non European look. Armenians often Look more European than Caucasian if only their skin tones were lighter. For example Freddy reminds me of Andrew Lincoln more than any Georgian I've met.
10763

He may be unusual because he's of Parsi (as in Zoroastrian ) descent. As I said, there seems to be a lot of variation in Iran.

Girl from Zoroastrian village: She looks European to me. Other Zoroastrians definitely don't.

https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1562/26128701042_4ce455aa41_b.jpg
http://www.thetower.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Mobedyar-Graduation-2_cr.jpg

This is how they sometimes depict Zoroaster.
http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/1915/2956/1600/4214/Zartosht01web.jpg

https://www.hinduwebsite.com/zoroastrianism/images/zoroaster002.jpg

Some non-Zoroastrian Iranians look quite European to me as well, but I don't think they're the norm.
http://static.dnaindia.com/sites/default/files/2014/05/20/237973-leila-hatami-iranian-actress-afp.jpg

Or, Freddie may be a one-off. I had no idea he wasn't European, perhaps Greek or something, until years after I first saw one of his videos.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/6d/83/e1/6d83e123881e00db1882ee2bff58bd1d.jpg

G2ian
16-02-19, 23:37
He may be unusual because he's of Parsi (as in Zoroastrian ) descent. As I said, there seems to be a lot of variation in Iran.

Girl from Zoroastrian village: She looks European to me. Other Zoroastrians definitely don't.

https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1562/26128701042_4ce455aa41_b.jpg

Holy macaroni that is the most Georgian looking non-Georgian woman I've ever seen.


Of Course. there is no such thing as "Iranian look" Iran is a mix of hundred different cultures and ethnicities. Including Millions of Georgians resettled by force throughout the centuries. Galiks and Mazandarans are also thought to be of Caucasian ancestry, whether they went willingly, as conquerors or as prisoners we will probably never know. Azeri, Armenian and Georgian ethnic groups still live in Iran. And that's just the ones that kept their culture, I imagine there are more who moved to cities and forgot their roots. as it happens.

I can't wait til most of the world genes are traced so we can get clearer picture... I'm pretty sure some Georgian tribes completely vanished due to warfare with Iranian and Proto Iranian kingdoms, Some of them were often forcefully resettled to Iran. Latest of such cases was in fact very very recently. Wiki has a good summary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Georgians

Angela
17-02-19, 01:41
G2a men or people don't necessarily share common looks. It's a silly idea. Get it?

You start getting rude with me and I'll get rude with you, and more importantly there will be other consequences.

Get it? I don't know what your problem is but you'd better get it sorted.

gidai
17-02-19, 08:12
G2a men or people don't necessarily share common looks. It's a silly idea. Get it?
You start getting rude with me and I'll get rude with you, and more importantly there will be other consequences.
Get it? I don't know what your problem is but you'd better get it sorted.
I did not intend to be rude at all, but you suggest the idea is silly. So, I have wanted to post pictures with G male or clearly identified with other haplogroups for comparison.

aleph
18-02-19, 10:22
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't G1 Iranians more common than G2a Iranians? If so, then what if some of the random "G2a" Iranian men posted here are G1 instead?

gidai
19-02-19, 10:38
Apart the ethical matter, of course.
A study on canine clones would be interesting and possible.

Regio X
21-02-19, 14:01
I found some pictures of I2 men that can be useful for comparison with G2a. Most of its are from here (https://haplogroupijm429.wordpress.com/category/i2/).One more. Cheddar Man (I2a2), "British" from ~10k years ago:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/ST30bbnWOe8cadACBaf06koheiI=/480x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/GLLBDP2LRI7SJAEUIJIVT7IKPA.jpg

Regio X
03-05-19, 21:52
@G2ian @Gidai
Merely out of curiosity, I remember that someone registered, in the old YSearch, STR markers supposedly from Messi. They pointed to G2a1. Some people thought it was strange, since it's rare in Europe as a whole. Well, Barcelona's players did have their DNAs tested time ago, and his father's paternal grandfather was from Recanati-MC, Marche. If my memory serves, both Boattini (prediction based on STRs) and Ethnopedia show %s above traces for G2a1 in Macerata (~5%?) and Marche (also ~5% - access 2017 May), respectively, hard to find in other places in Europe, apparently. So in fact the result wouldn't be out of the place. Obviously, they may be fake, since any one could register STR markers in there and put whatever name. Still... Who knows!
That said, here is Messi (G2a1???)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Lionel_Messi_20180626.jpg
G2a-L293 Eupedia Map
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-G2a-L293.png
Province of Macerata
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Macerata_in_Italy.svg/500px-Macerata_in_Italy.svg.png
See also:
https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/barcelona-dna-testing-advantage-over-arsenal
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3456465/Barcelona-breaking-mould-DNA-testing-La-Liga-giants-prepare-Champions-League-clash-Arsenal.html
(However, these articles are from the beginning of 2016, while the supposed results of Messi were already in YSearch around 2015 July (when someone posted about it here in Eupedia. So, don't know!)
@Gidai
This is James Franciscus - from Planet of the Apes -, G2b (former G2c).
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/James_Franciscus_1977.JPGJust saw this. Out of curiosity...

Italian citizenship
https://www.corriere.it/cronache/19_maggio_03/messi-residente-recanati-comune-manda-certificato-elettorale-7f0b3580-6d7b-11e9-a640-9ee483a15261.shtml

PS: Didn't make my point clear. An evidence that Messi may be indeed G2a1 is the roughly coincidence between the info at YSearch (a bit earlier) and the publicity of the DNA tests by Barcelona players (a bit later). Still... who knows! :)

Erratum: G2b1 (Franciscus' clade) is former G2c, not just G2b.

04-05-19, 03:11
I'm number 10 on the G2a list of men, above, and I can say I see no similarities with the other G2a men and I feel the attempt to tie appearance to haplogroup to be a waste of time. While my father's line was G2a, and my mother's was K1a4h, the multitude of my other relatives' lines include all the types of Europe and of most of the Middle East. All of them contributed to my current appearance, for good or ill. Let's do some real science and not go down these silly skin tone and skull shape wormholes.

Angela
04-05-19, 16:51
Words of wisdom from a new member. :)

Fwiw, my husband is G2a, and even without seeing a picture of you I can absolutely 100% guarantee you look nothing alike given your ethnicity.

There's a lot of silliness in this hobby. This is an example.

Ideophagous
13-08-19, 10:53
Unless you can prove that a significant number of genes determining facial appearance are on the Y chromosome, I think any seeming resemblance between G2a is the result of cognitive bias.

kostop
13-08-19, 12:19
Ok, let's ignore all the scientific facts proving that phenotype is determined by the autosomes, not yDNA. Wouldn't this "common appearance" also apply to all other haplogroups? Why just G2a? Or are you implying that such similarities also exist among R1b individuals for example?

bigsnake49
13-08-19, 17:43
Iranian phenotypes are extremely varied as elsewhere. I have seen anywhere from light haired, green-eyed men that would feel right at home in Northern Italy or France to very hairy, blackest of the black haired men, that would have a shade an hour after shaving, to an Irish looking redhead to Indian looking women. Just like in Greece. It just points out how varied appearances can be.

I()
30-09-19, 22:45
This Caucasus like phenotype is one that has traveled far and wide. All the way to Latin America in this case: Keith Hernandez.

https://jamboxstudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Carl-Keith-Hernandez.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b9/65/21/b96521fda9228db5cc0c51c4ace2aa48--the-count-counting-on.jpg
I notice in the second picture that your husband appreciates the man you admire! Even if it were G2a ...

Angela
27-10-19, 19:14
I notice in the second picture that your husband appreciates the man you admire! Even if it were G2a ...

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I enjoy a game of baseball every once in a while, provided it's the actual game, and I'm at the stadium. Otherwise, I'm not much of a fan. So, I think "admiring" Keith Hernandez is a bit of a stretch. I just happen to know what he looks like, and think his look is very Caucasus affected.

As for my husband, he has been a Yankees fanatic all his life, so probably he does admire Hernandez, although I don't know what that has to do with the topic.

And yes, my husband does or did have a bit of the look of Hernandez, especially when he had a big mustache like that. Alas, no more. I liked it, or him wearing it, more precisely.

Angela
27-10-19, 19:34
I have no idea what you're talking about.

I enjoy a game of baseball every once in a while, provided it's the actual game, and I'm at the stadium. Otherwise, I'm not much of a fan. So, I think "admiring" Keith Hernandez is a bit of a stretch. I just happen to know what he looks like, and think his look is very Caucasus affected.

As for my husband, he has been a Yankees fanatic all his life, so probably he does admire Hernandez, although I don't know what that has to do with the topic.

And yes, my husband does or did have a bit of the look of Hernandez, especially when he had a big mustache like that. Alas, no more. I liked it, or him wearing it, more precisely.

My husband is indeed G2a2, with ancestry from Campania and Calabria, and he looked a lot like Fabio Ceravolo when I first met him. It was love at first sight.

Fabio Ceravolo
https://s.hs-data.com/bilder/spieler/gross/37979.jpg


The Wright Brothers were G2a as well, however, weren't they?
https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/the-wright-brothers-orville-wilbur-portraits.jpg?quality=85

Good thing I checked: they were "E".

Who is a famous G2a2?

That wasn't Stalin's right?

Wow, he looked so different when he was young. Looks don't match with homicidal tendencies apparently.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3871/14153414530_ba2db89d5f_b.jpg

Joey37
27-10-19, 21:12
My father looked like Don Mattingly with a mustache.

Angela
27-10-19, 22:58
My father looked like Don Mattingly with a mustache.

It was definitely a "thing". :)

He's one of those guys who I think definitely looked better with the mustache.

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/don-mattingly-of-the-new-york-yankees-poses-for-a-portrait-before-a-picture-id53046318?s=594x594


https://www.vsaauctions.com/ItemImages/000021/21216b_m

https://www.vsaauctions.com/ItemImages/000021/21216b_m
https://www.vsaauctions.com/ItemImages/000021/21216b_m

10-11-19, 19:53
My paternal line is G2a-Z726, but my male ancestors are, almost certainly, mainly of other Y-DNA types. In fact, when I look at MyTrueAncestry for the Y-DNA distribution of all male samples that match my autosomal DNA kit, G2a doesn't even make the list. Why should I think I'd look anything like other G2a's?

61.4% R1b
19.2% R1a
11.2% I2
03.5% I1
01.75% J
01.75% N

Regio X
10-11-19, 20:53
My paternal line is G2a-Z726, but my male ancestors are, almost certainly, mainly of other Y-DNA types. In fact, when I look at MyTrueAncestry for the Y-DNA distribution of all male samples that match my autosomal DNA kit, G2a doesn't even make the list. Why should I think I'd look anything like other G2a's?

61.4% R1b
19.2% R1a
11.2% I2
03.5% I1
01.75% J
01.75% NNice. I don't know about MyTrueAncestry, but I checked three months ago and I have at least 25 confirmed G-L497 (autosomal) matches in 23andMe. I say "at least" because there must be some testees of older versions, and I'm not sure if all versions tested the SNP L497.
12 of them are confirmed G-L42 (10 out of these 12 are Italians in patrilineal ancestry, mainly NEs), 5 G-CTS4803 (2 Italians), 1 G-Z16775 plus 7 other G-L497s (1 Italian).
I trace my patrilineal ancestry to NE Italy.

10-11-19, 21:13
Nice. I don't know about MyTrueAncestry, but I checked three months ago and I have at least 25 confirmed G-L497 (autosomal) matches in 23andMe. I say "at least" because there must be some testees of older versions, and I'm not sure if all versions tested the SNP L497.
12 of them are confirmed G-L42 (10 out of these 12 are Italians in patrilineal ancestry, mainly NEs), 5 G-CTS4803 (2 Italians), 1 G-Z16775 plus 7 other G-L497s (1 Italian).
I trace my patrilineal ancestry to NE Italy.

Under G2a-Z726 I'm predicted to be Z36217, an as-of-yet unconfirmed sister clade of 4803 and 16775.

I'm fairly lucky because a number of the members of my family in the US and a long-lost cousin in England tested with FTDNA, so I have a very good confirmation of my paper trail. We're from northern England circa 1550.

Regio X
10-11-19, 22:36
Under G2a-Z726 I'm predicted to be Z36217, an as-of-yet unconfirmed sister clade of 4803 and 16775.

I'm fairly lucky because a number of the members of my family in the US and a long-lost cousin in England tested with FTDNA, so I have a very good confirmation of my paper trail. We're from northern England circa 1550.In fact, G-Z36217 is now a confirmed branch. At this moment it has several equivalents though (almost 30), and I'm not sure you'd be positive for all. We'll know soon its TMRCA in YFull (either in the next update or in december). The current two branches have six terminal SNPs each according to ISOGG. We don't know how exactly the combBED region in YFull is defined, so I don't know which of them will be considered for age calculation. I'm guessing something like 800-950 ybp, but who knows! We'll see.
(Further data may change TMRCAs.)

11-11-19, 22:32
In fact, G-Z36217 is now a confirmed branch. At this moment it has several equivalents though (almost 30), and I'm not sure you'd be positive for all. We'll know soon its TMRCA in YFull (either in the next update or in december). The current two branches have six terminal SNPs each according to ISOGG. We don't know how exactly the combBED region in YFull is defined, so I don't know which of them will be considered for age calculation. I'm guessing something like 800-950 ybp, but who knows! We'll see.
(Further data may change TMRCAs.)

Thanks for that update!

Regio X
06-12-19, 21:58
11657
Massively redacted due to too much personal identifying information. Long story short, I'm going to have to agree with those who notice similarities.
Sildi, Dagestan, home of Khabib Nurmagomedov and the region is really notable for producing fighters also a hotbed of ancestral G2a (I believe literally the highest concentration on earth). At first, I thought that region was probably just the "birthplace of freestyle wrestling" but the fighters span so many different styles including foreign and unrelated ones.
Abruzzo, Sardinia, Dagestan, Ossetia, Georgia what do these areas have in common? Quite a few behavioral traits that few people could deny. Let's start with "obstinacy" and some sort of inclination towards physical fighting. Abruzzo being a bit of an outlier due to extremely high amounts of post-Neolithic admixture. Unfortunately, my geopolitical work has also made me realize the region produces a lot of the very dangerous religious zealots. When religious zealots from that region reach an active ideological-based war zone, "things hit the fan" whether it be once they reached the Balkans, Iraq, or their own wars for independence against Russia. In regards to the Balkans, this is speaking tremendous volumes. Certain groups "had things under control" until insurgents from that region joined the mix.
I'm sorry but "cultural similarities" explaining these things despite complete geographic isolation from one another and absolutely no shared common history for several thousand years factually does not in anyway explain these commonalities. I think people from the Caucasus will agree and unlike some people on this forum, will take this as a huge compliment rather than living by the maxim that "violence of any kind is indicative of low intelligence". Sorry also factually false. Take a look at the IQ's of the American spec ops community who have the highest tempo rotations of anyone possibly on planet earth at the moment after 18 years of low-intensity foreign wars with an all volunteer service...
Now this post is about physical characteristics. Since that seems to be "up for debate". The head shape is also almost block-like. "Oh that's just shared autosomal genetic ancestry stretching back to the Neolithic". Ya perhaps it is... and so would it not make sense that the Neolithic Farmers weren't pacifist peace loving hippies and actually extremely obstinate and ferocious and thus were wiped out violently in a series of wars against the invading Indo-Europeans who were phenotypically radically different? Wiped out practically to a last man in most regions of Europe. Sound like a... "culture clash" of the highest order vs the current narrative of: "The Indo-Europeans were just peaceful pastoralists who just simply out reproduced the Neolithic farmers because of "higher sperm counts" (even though absolutely nothing scientific would indicate this to be true[ie. nothing indicates R1b/R1a have higher sperm motility than G2a but somehow that's the narrative on this forum])".
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/04/y-chromosome-more-sex-switch
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature13151Pater, I'm a bit bored about this subject, since I talked too much about it*, but I'll give this one more answer (I assume you read all this thread already?).
Firstly, interesting articles. Y chromosome is obviously important. But keep in mind that Y chromosome as a whole and a given Y "haplogroup" are two distinct dimensions.
Yeah, I know it'd be cool if haplogroups left that visible marks on their "carriers", but we've to deal with the impositive reality. For example, regarding Stalin (I see you deleted your first post, but here we go), even if haplogroups have/had some importance in this regard, it wouldn't be that obvious. Naturally, the comparison between two G individuals would not be enough to evidence such substantial influence of the hg over head shape or whatever. Rather, you'd need a great sampling showing it really compete in an important way with Autosomal. Things certainly are way more complex than "I look like Stalin".
I'm G-L497 myself, btw, and I'd be an easy exemplum in contrarium, if it were the case.
Also, not sure why you'd use G as a link between those areas you mentioned, under a genetic perspective, given it's really, really common just in Ossetia (Georgia has regional differences, and G is really common in western half). Certainly the people from Abruzzo don't own whatever supposed characteristics they have to an hg that is not even frequent among them (up to 10%).

Finally, I'm not sure why you'd assume you're G-L497 without testing further. If you are, that would be, say, "casual". There are many other G clades in Europe, and G-L497 is not the most common everywhere in the continent.

*Related posts:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=589593#post589593
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=589795#post589795
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=589894#post589894

Regio X
06-12-19, 22:59
I can't go into details. You saw the redacted version but I'd like to maintain some retroactive privacy from the rest of the public.
If the Y-chromosome may function as the "control chromosome" thus manipulating the autosomal and autosomal combinations create discernible characteristics in different populations, why would it be a stretch to say the Y-chromosome might cause the autosomal DNA effecting head shape to be that way?
Furthermore, I am not G-L497 just G-L30. Given that would make me one of only a few people in the world with no downstream clade of G-L30 and the high % of G-L497 relative to anything else in Europe, I put G-L497 because assuming I'm just G-L30 full stop would seem absurd at best. However, it's entirely possible that I am, in fact, G-L30 with no downstream. It would just be so statistically rare for Italy that it would not benefit research to operate under that assumption. However, let's assume this to be the case, then that would mean I do share an even more specific clade with Stalin than you as a G-L497 that mutated much more recently than mine or Stalin's.
https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupgproject/xtra-samples-g2a5
So far, only one man
has been found to have L30 and simultaneously be negative for the two L30
subgroups.

I don't test positive for downstream clades of G. So I assume the tests to be wrong unless I'm literally pretty much the only man on earth with G-L30.
Correct me here if I'm wrong.Pater, I wouldn't even know how to begin. :)
Let's go in short...
Again, regarding the articles, you're seeing "human Y chromosome" and reading "Y generic (sub-)haplogroups".
As for G-L30, it's also possible you tested an old version of 23andMe. Is that so? More recent versions tested additional SNPs. You should just test G Superpanel at YSEQ. Not that expensive.
Stalin belongs to some branch below G2a1, while G-L497 is under G2a2.

Btw, a clade that you and Stalin shares? Aren't you G-L497 anymore? :) Man, you do look a bit confused, because Stalin is not even G-L30 (G2a2b).
Finally, why do you think G-L497 mutated more recently? It depends on which clade it's being compared to.

Regio X
06-12-19, 23:15
Read what I said. I did the FamilyTreeDNA Big 700. Does 700 short tandem repeats and 200k SNP's. It's the deepest subclass test available. It concluded I am G-L30 with no downstream thus I invalidate the evidence because I would be 1/2 men on earth with this.
Stalin's original clade is more similar to mine than G-L497. Date of mutation? I am referring to original date of mutation.
Read and watch your mouth.Lol Firstly you suggested - in the "deleted message" - you tested at 23andMe and that you don't know if you're G-L497. Now you say you tested BigY and you're G-L30*. Hmm Right!

No, dude, every G-L497 is also G-L30. The most recent common patrilineal ancestor of any G-L497 man and any other G-L30 man lived more recently compared to the time of the most recent common ancestor of G-L30 and Stalin's clade. Have you ever heard about YFull and TMRCAs?
Jesus! This is a crazy talk!

Regio X
06-12-19, 23:22
Your suggestion is to do a deeper subclade test and I've done the deepest. 23andme had me also at G-L30 hence why I was told to do a deep subclade test. Well I did EXACTLY what you are suggesting and got the same result.

As far as sharing a common ancestor with Stalin, how is this possible if G-L30 WITHOUT DOWNSTREAM CLADES is ANCESTRAL to G-L497 AND Stalin's?You said you didn't know if you are G-L497, but you supposedly tested BigY.

It seems you didn't get it yet. G-L30 (G2a2b) is ancestral to G-L497, but not to Stalin's clade (G2a1). Please stop talking and go doing a basic research.

I'm done here!

Regio X
06-12-19, 23:36
Pater, please stop sending me "kind" PMs.
Thanks!

Regio X
07-12-19, 00:13
11661
You not believing that I'm G-L30 despite the deepest subclade test is the only issue here. Either that or your absolutely horrible reading comprehension skills. Pick your poison.
You just continue to parrot the same thing which can be summarized by the following: "I have reading comprehension levels similar to that of a housefly. I'm going to continuously ignore that you've addressed both the G-L30 23andme/Big 700 subclade downstream points and continue to parrot nonsense about how that must be impossible and redundantly repeat that you haven't done deep enough testing despite doing the deepest test commercially available. Now I'm "done" here because I'm unable to fathom the possibility that you are possibly a very ancient clade of G-L30 that is in fact closer to G2a1 than G-L497 so I'm just going to repeat myself over and over"................Dear Pater, then go to FTDNA and inform Italy as your patrilineal location, because I couldn't find an Italian G-L30* in Block Tree. If you tested BigY, you should have made it clear in the message you deleted, but you mentioned only 23andMe, and suggested you didn't know if you are G-L497. Assuming you did test BigY, then next time communicate it better.

I'll try to explain it again, because you seem to be a newbie after all. No problem, but you should be more open and try to learn something rather than insist on error.

Firstly, Stalin was G-Z6552, i.e., G2a1. Stalin was not G-L30 (G2a2b) then.

This is the ISOGG phylogenetic tree of G:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/111Iqo0vRt-sr8MJT7pavKQ0qoWxYSc1P7hnMRq3GijU/edit#gid=0

Notice that G-L30 is G2a2b, so everybody below G-L30 is closer to each other than they are to G-Z6552 (G2a1), when it comes to patrilineal ancestry.

This is the YFull tree of G2a (G-P15):
https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-P15/

TMRCA means Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor. The TMRCA between Stalin (G-Z6552) and us (you and me, G-L30, since I'm G-L497 then also G-L30) is 17400 ybp (years before present), which naturally corresponds to G-P15's. The TMRCA between you and I, in turn, corresponds to G-L30's, which is 14400 ybp. Got it? Our most recent common patrilineal ancestor lived 3000 years after your and Stalin's.

So, stop getting offended when I say you're confused. Don't be proud. Just try to understand what is written and learn something. No problem at all on it. If you're not getting what is written due to lack of details on my part, than ask deeper explanations.

ED: correction.

Regio X
07-12-19, 00:59
"Cant find an Italian G-L30"... Yes, like I said, it would make me one of 2 people on PLANET EARTH with that and no downstream thus I do not agree with 23andme or FamilyTreeDNA as I've said at least 3 times. You don't read my posts. Why did I originally postulate G-L497? I SPECIFICALLY said this is because a G-L30 Big 700 and 23andme result most both be erroneous. If not, then yes I am a rarity but as I said countless times, this must be due to error. Again READ.

Compare Stalin's G-L293 it to my G-L30 erroneous clade. Compare G-L293 to G-L30 because until some magical deeper test comes around to further clarify, all I have to go by is that I'm G-L30.

G-L497 mutated in the end of the Neolithic right before the Bronze Age so how on earth could G-L30, which mutated and branched off of the G2a parent group in the EARLY NEOLITHIC possibly not be ancestral to yours and much closer in time to the TMRCA of G-L293?!

"You are also G-L30" sure then we're all Africans by that logic. No mine is older and thus closer to the common TMRCA split that yielded G2a1 and G-L30. You are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay downstream of that. Got it?

2 Problems here:

1) You don't read.

2) You don't believe I'm G-L30 and think I'm something downstream. I agree but the evidence suggests this to be false. So until a better test than the Big 700 rolls around, I have to operate under the strange condition that I'm a lost clade of G-L30. There is 1 other man confirmed to be this. I have no information on what country he is from. That would make myself and any paternal relatives (few) also in that exclusive group. Your disbelief is causing you to repeat yourself like a mindless parrot.

3) G-L30 full stop IS NOT = G-L497. G-L497 came MUCH later. Thus your specific subclade is MUCH NEWER THAN MINE. Therefore, mine is MUCH CLOSER TO STALIN'S. Sorry to burst your bubble, you are a common clade G-L497, I am not. Time to be a little more sentient.

-Shortened Version for Regio who struggles with reading: I am a VERY ANCIENT and UPSTREAM clade of G2a, far more ancient than your very recent G-L497. YOU ARE NOT BASE G-L30 YOU ARE DOWNSTREAM OF G-L30. Thus the TMRCA of MY haplogroup IS FACTUALLY CLOSER IN TIME TO STALIN'S THAN YOURS. Pay attention.:good_job:

07-12-19, 01:24
Excellent. I'm glad you finally realize you have a sub-100 IQ. What is your IQ, sir? I know mine after 2 separate tests by psychologists. One was 4 hours long the other 6 split into three 2 hours segments.

What is your IQ? Please tell the forum.

Big guy, you are way out of bounds.

matadworf
07-12-19, 02:17
3 generations; my grandfather, my father, me
116631166411665

07-12-19, 02:55
I thought you said you weren't a fighter ;)

Looks like some of my assumptions are starting to ring true. Keep swinging. It's in you somewhere... hopefully ;)

Oh Navy. Now everything makes sense. Nice comfy desk job?

Navy fighters , F-4 and F-14, seven cruises in harms way, so I’m not shy, but I don’t accept nasty ad hominem attacks. BTW, my father and father-in-law are both career military. One son is an Army Ranger, the other a tech in the Air Force.

How do you like them apples?

Duarte
20-04-20, 16:22
I've been on a "Queen", Freddie Mercury listening binge, and it finally occurred to me that his phenotype fits in too.

He was a Parsi from India, although I don't personally see any Indian in him. Instead, he looks very Caucasus like to me, which makes sense since they originated in Iran. Interestingly, before looking him up I always thought he was of European descent of some sort, just always with a tan. :) Compare him to Keith Hernandez who is half Spanish and half Scots Irish.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qqh1cVaoDpM/UILlTs8b3GI/AAAAAAAAImo/M5ymTfAXsb8/s1600/keith+hernandez+st.+louis+road+uni.jpg

It's amazing. This phenotype is indeed spread far and wide. How much "G" in Iran? :)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ksSdBOI1Ppk/Rj6SRf4UpcI/AAAAAAAAARo/mUVLOFKRcbA/s320/freddie.jpg

Of course, my image of him is always like this. :)

https://queenpoland.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/freddie-live-099.jpg

Gay or not, I always thought he was very sexy.

Young Freddie Mercury - Rare films and photographs:


https://youtu.be/fmoOMhMlWbE

Angela
20-04-20, 17:41
Young Freddie Mercury - Rare films and photographs:


https://youtu.be/fmoOMhMlWbE

What a nice find; thanks, Duarte. :)

Terrible to lose him so young.

Aaron1981
23-04-20, 18:11
Based on results, R1b men tended to have broad skulls with flat occipitals. I find this funny because nobody has this skull shape in my family, but I see it often in more eastern European and Balkan people. If we once had this skull shape, we must have taken the skull shapes of the west European Neolithic people. In fact many west European men have Freddy's skull shape, but only the lucky men get his chiseled cheekbones. ;)

People may joke, but I think there is some autosomal/sexual selection going on. Higher foreheads are more predominant in men, but I find a high forehead on women less attractive. Of course too high a forehead on a man is not attractive either, but seems to be more common and less offensive for women. In fact, I've noticed a high forehead in women is far less common. Some selection at work? I'm not sure.

Anfänger
23-04-20, 18:41
Based on results, R1b men tended to have broad skulls with flat occipitals. I find this funny because nobody has this skull shape in my family, but I see it often in more eastern European and Balkan people. If we once had this skull shape, we must have taken the skull shapes of the west European Neolithic people. In fact many west European men have Freddy's skull shape, but only the lucky men get his chiseled cheekbones. ;)


People may joke, but I think there is some autosomal/sexual selection going on. Higher foreheads are more predominant in men, but I find a high forehead on women less attractive. Of course too high a forehead on a man is not attractive either, but seems to be more common and less offensive for women. In fact, I've noticed a high forehead in women is far less common. Some selection at work? I'm not sure.

Most broad faced flat occipital modern person I can think of is Erling Haaland(Norwegian):

12020

He kinda reminds me of that British Beaker reconstruction.

Definitely not a "beauty". Gracile types may have been selected from Bronze Age onwards because... yeah you see...:laughing:

Angela
23-04-20, 19:17
Based on results, R1b men tended to have broad skulls with flat occipitals. I find this funny because nobody has this skull shape in my family, but I see it often in more eastern European and Balkan people. If we once had this skull shape, we must have taken the skull shapes of the west European Neolithic people. In fact many west European men have Freddy's skull shape, but only the lucky men get his chiseled cheekbones. ;)

People may joke, but I think there is some autosomal/sexual selection going on. Higher foreheads are more predominant in men, but I find a high forehead on women less attractive. Of course too high a forehead on a man is not attractive either, but seems to be more common and less offensive for women. In fact, I've noticed a high forehead in women is far less common. Some selection at work? I'm not sure.

Quite a few Dinaric skulls in Italy. The ancient Romans, who were R1b carriers, certainly had broad skulls, although I don't know about the back of the head. Most seem to have been "rounded", so perhaps "Alpine"? Some definitely had a flat back of the head, though.
http://imgsrc.allposters.com/img/print/posters/bust-of-julius-caesar-100-44-bc_a-G-1348981-8880731.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Bust_of_Julius_Caesar_British_Museum.jpg

I agree with you, fwiw, about autosomal sexual selection. I think cleft chins have been selected for among men at certain periods, along with other things. I personally prefer prominent noses on men too; more masculine somehow.

However, for a lot of human history we didn't have much choice. We were married to whom our parents chose, or for women might have been mated with whoever forced us.

The high forehead thing is very culture dependent, I think. In the Middle Ages they were so prized in women that they plucked a lot of their hair out to get it. YUCK! They also found the pregnant belly sexy so if they weren't pregnant, which they usually were, they put pillows under their dresses. To each their own I guess.
https://brewminate.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/090818-47-Art-History-Medieval-Middle-Ages-Eyck-Arnolfini-Women.jpg

Personally, I find low foreheads very unattractive in both men and women. It looks Neanderthalish or something.

One I never understood is the bound foot fetish among the Chinese. Not only do I not see how it's sexy, they were rotting, for goodness sakes' so they must have stunk to high heaven.

Progon
26-05-20, 08:05
I still don't have explanation how G2a massively dropped during Bronze Age and on wards.Strange.

Angela
26-05-20, 16:50
I still don't have explanation how G2a massively dropped during Bronze Age and on wards.Strange.

It wasn't during the Bronze Age; there was a big drop in the perhaps Middle to Late Neolithic as well.

It's still a mystery.

G2ian
23-06-20, 19:24
I still don't have explanation how G2a massively dropped during Bronze Age and on wards.Strange.My best guess is some sort of plague with the spread of new populations from the east and increase in trade.

Progon
23-06-20, 23:12
My best guess is some sort of plague with the spread of new populations from the east and increase in trade.

The plague makes sense.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07673-7

24-06-20, 01:48
The plague makes sense.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07673-7

Did the associated Neolithic mtDNA groups also suddenly decline? If it was a plague, they should have.

Angela
24-06-20, 01:49
Did the associated Neolithic mtDNA groups also suddenly decline? If it was a plague, they should have.

Except if, like Covid, for example, it was more lethal for men.

ratchet_fan
24-06-20, 01:53
Did the associated Neolithic mtDNA groups also suddenly decline? If it was a plague, they should have.

I mean its a combination of the revenge of the Hunter gatherers and then indo-europeans expansion. Maybe y I guys were incorporated into IE populations easier due to lifestyle?

I feel bad for the Y C guys. There was likely a y C and mt U population from Western Europe to Eastern Siberia. The y C guys were eliminated by I guys in the West and SE Asian K2b guys in the east.

I wonder if the the C guys found refuge in places like India. Does anybody know if Kosetenki-14's y C1b is ancestral to y C1b in India?

G2ian
24-06-20, 04:10
Did the associated Neolithic mtDNA groups also suddenly decline? If it was a plague, they should have.
Well description of my mtDNA I says it accompanied EEF and also declined with it so yes.

Your mtDNA signature belongs to the ‘I’ motherline. This ancestral line is estimated to have arisen in the Near East, somewhere between 19 to 26,000 years ago, during the Last Glacial Maximum or in the pre-warming period following it. Some later subfamilies of haplogroup I may have been involved in the spread of agriculture, but the founding members were definitely among the first to enter what we now call Europe, moving with the warming climate, starting from the Late Glacial period, 12-18,000 years ago (Olivieri et al., 2013).
Today, members of this motherline are found widespread all over Europe, albeit at a low frequency, with the exception of a few isolated populations.
Haplogroup I has also been observed at a higher frequency in some recent historic samples from Denmark, suggesting that your motherline used to be a larger family, possibly concentrated in that area. It is yet unknown why haplogroup I is less extant today (Melchior et al., 2008; Hofreiter et al., 2010).
I did read in some other research that MtDNA I was one of the groups accompanying G2a spread in Europe specifically and it also seems to have declined into almost complete obscurity so.

At this point plague seems most plausible. Although I'm open to any evidence to the contrary.

24-06-20, 17:50
My motherline is mtDNA K1a, which also had a Neolithic entry into Europe. I don't believe they declined, which is the source of my question. It has seemed to me that maternal lines, whether Paleolithic (like my wife's U5b) or Neolithic (like my mother's), seem to continue on through the eons while their male counterparts disappear or are greatly diminished.

ratchet_fan
24-06-20, 19:03
My motherline is mtDNA K1a, which also had a Neolithic entry into Europe. I don't believe they declined, which is the source of my question. It has seemed to me that maternal lines, whether Paleolithic (like my wife's U5b) or Neolithic (like my mother's), seem to continue on through the eons while their male counterparts disappear or are greatly diminished.

True. Although it looks like you have a neolithic y line. I think what Indo-Europeans did to Europe is pretty unique. Usually older lines get absorbed but in Europe Indo-European R1a and R1b pretty much replaced most lines at least in the North. However, I think their original lines were subclasses of U2 which aren't that common either.

G2ian
25-06-20, 00:47
As I said, Some mtDNAs that were associated with the farmers also declined, others didn't. Could be a million reasons.

Regio X
25-06-20, 01:10
My motherline is mtDNA K1a, which also had a Neolithic entry into Europe. I don't believe they declined, which is the source of my question. It has seemed to me that maternal lines, whether Paleolithic (like my wife's U5b) or Neolithic (like my mother's), seem to continue on through the eons while their male counterparts disappear or are greatly diminished.mtDNA K1 (and also H13) was also among mesolithic HGs. See Iron Gates:
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fnature25778/MediaObjects/41586_2018_BFnature25778_MOESM3_ESM.xlsx

ratchet_fan
25-06-20, 01:16
As I said, Some mtDNAs that were associated with the farmers also declined, others didn't. Could be a million reasons.

True. I think as whole though the farmer mtdnas declined less than the dnas but like you said some mtdnas did decline. But some farmer ydnas almost completely disappeared though (H2?).

Regio X
25-06-20, 01:36
mtDNA K1 (and also H13) was also among mesolithic HGs. See Iron Gates:
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fnature25778/MediaObjects/41586_2018_BFnature25778_MOESM3_ESM.xlsxOut of curiosity, that Epipaleo Anatolian Hunter-Gatherer sample is mtDNA K, and IIRC there were K in Greece before Neolithic. Not sure. Would have to check it.

mtDNA N (don't remember the subclade) is one that dropped, but some other "Neolithics" became frequent, as we all know.

G2ian
25-06-20, 01:57
True. I think as whole though the farmer mtdnas declined less than the dnas but like you said some mtdnas did decline. But some farmer ydnas almost completely disappeared though (H2?).
This is a pure speculation on my part but it could be that mtDnas were spread in clusters rather than evenly across large territories. Those that lived in more densely populated areas or closer to the epicenter of the cataclysm would've been more vulnerable. Coincidentally the Mtdna "I" seems to have been concentrated around modern Northern Germany/Denmark, Poland area which saw almost complete disappearance of some groups. Could've been an epicenter of whatever it was killed them off.

I used to think invasion was the cause but not anymore. The Invasion probably happened and it likely was one of the factors for the near extinction of farmers but It probably came after or accompanied some other cataclysmic event that weakened the continent.

Famine is also a possibility albeit a less likely one. Famine can kill a lot of people but affect the huge chunk of the continent so completely ? I don't know.

Those are two main reasons imo. Throughout history the times of great change and unrest are most often preceded by cataclysmic events like disease or climate change.

ratchet_fan
17-07-20, 03:16
We're not disagreeing with you because we think he looks bad, no :) I just think he looks more European than Caucasian. I wouldn't be surprised if genetically he's mostly Indo-European with some middle eastern mix. Hell that kind of face is far more common in Europe and among European-Americans than in Caucasus. Don't confuse dark complexion with non European look. Armenians often Look more European than Caucasian if only their skin tones were lighter. For example Freddy reminds me of Andrew Lincoln more than any Georgian I've met.
10763

Freddy Mercury is Indian admixed if anything.

Palermo Trapani
17-07-20, 03:52
Ratchet: I think Freddy was of Iranian ancestry, but his parents were from India. I actually think he is of Iranian ancestry, not of Indian ancestry.

ratchet_fan
17-07-20, 04:07
Ratchet: I think Freddy was of Iranian ancestry, but his parents were from India. I actually think he is of Iranian ancestry, not of Indian ancestry.

He is a Parsi. Parsis descend from a group of Iranians who left Iran and ended up in India around the time of the Arab invasion of the Sassanid empire. Freddy Mercury's ancestors were in India for 1200 years. And there is absolutely no doubt they admixed with the local Indian population (mostly females) in that time frame. They are about 2/3 to 3/4 Iranian and 1/4 to 1/3 Indian genetically.


Despite this, we infer that Indian Zoroastrians (Parsis) intermixed with local groups sometime after their arrival in India, dating this mixture to 690–1390 CE and providing strong evidence that Iranian Zoroastrian ancestry was maintained primarily through the male line.


In (1) and (2), we detected admixture in the Parsis dated to 27 (range: 17–38) and 32 (19–44) generations ago, respectively, in each case between one predominantly Indian-like source and one predominantly Iranian-like source. This large contribution from an Iranian-like source (∼64%–76%) is not seen in any of our other 7 Indian clusters, though we detect admixture in each of these 7 groups from wide-ranging sources related to modern day individuals from Bangladesh, Cambodia, Europe, Pakistan, or of Jewish heritage (Figures 2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5590844/figure/fig2/) and S7 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5590844/#mmc1), Tables S5–S7 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5590844/#mmc1))

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5590844/

Angela
17-07-20, 04:18
Freddy was a Parsi, an Indian of distant Iranian ancestry. The Parsis were in India for centuries. Given the structure of Indian society, and the fact you can't really convert to Zoroastrianism, probably most of his ancestry was Iranian.

He certainly didn't look a bit Indian imo. Salman Rushdie looks like he has more admixture.

I actually was surprised to find out after his death that Freddy was a Parsi or of Iranian descent. He looked Southern European to me.

Iranians are a heterogeneous group in my opinion. You can get a number of different looks.

In this particular picture of Khomeini, shave the beard off and he looks like Sean Connery. No wonder Oriana Fallaci, after the interview in which she tore off the burka he had made her wear, called him that evil, magnificent looking old man. :) What a woman.

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/9a6843f1-29ab-4e7b-b90e-e4b1ca1f910c/d2gd7np-c2442965-ab89-479c-87de-1cb8174da5b9.jpg/v1/fill/w_900,h_1241,q_75,strp/imam_khomeini_quality_pic_by_islamicwallpers.jpg?t oken=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJpc3Mi OiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMG QyNmUwIiwic3ViIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0Mzcz YTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZT ppbWFnZS5vcGVyYXRpb25zIl0sIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiIv Zi85YTY4NDNmMS0yOWFiLTRlN2ItYjkwZS1lNGIxY2ExZjkxMG MvZDJnZDducC1jMjQ0Mjk2NS1hYjg5LTQ3OWMtODdkZS0xY2I4 MTc0ZGE1YjkuanBnIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTkwMCIsImhlaWdodC I6Ijw9MTI0MSJ9XV19.4pg4Ex7MqC7jE-OBcFsg9IlM6zBzYl9VI_lu2Lcu2Hw

Palermo Trapani
17-07-20, 05:01
Ratchet/Angela: Ok, thanks for the further clarification. I agree with the Caste System of India would lessen any intermarrying and I just assumed his ancestors married within the Iranian Ethnic community. The Zoroastrianism angle is another one that suggests mostly Iranian.

Sean Connery!, your correct, Always was is and ever will be my Favorite James Bond.

ratchet_fan
17-07-20, 05:03
Yea 2/3 to 3/4 of his ancestry was Iranian as that article says. No different than jews taking native women wherever they went. The old Parsi ftdna project had a shitload of mtdna M.

Palermo Trapani
17-07-20, 05:25
ratchet_Man: Come on man, cool down on the admixture events where Men married local women, happens alot, I think the same thing happened wherever the Steppe herders went, married lots of local women. However, yes, the daughters I would guess, I don't know, were probably in arranged marriages with Iranian-Parsi men. I know nothing about Parsi culture but the daughter marrying a Hindu Man would probably mean she is no longer part of the Zoroastrianism community (just a hunch). However, I looked up this article and it does suggest that a full Parsi wedding includes the Parents blessing before it can occur in the Temple for their religion


https://www.culturalindia.net/weddings/regional-weddings/parsi-wedding.html

So maybe Parsi Men who could not find a young Parsi Women to marry because no Parents would bless the Union had to wed local Indian women. How that non Parsi woman was recognized into their faith tradition, not sure, but the article you cited does suggest that: Here is a quote

"The iMhg and Yhg frequency-based pairwise FST values indicate that through the male line the lay Parsis have a closer relationship to the lay Iranian Zoroastrians, but through the female line they have a closer relationship to the non-Zoroastrians from India"

ratchet_fan
17-07-20, 14:46
ratchet_Man: Come on man, cool down on the admixture events where Men married local women, happens alot, I think the same thing happened wherever the Steppe herders went, married lots of local women. However, yes, the daughters I would guess, I don't know, were probably in arranged marriages with Iranian-Parsi men. I know nothing about Parsi culture but the daughter marrying a Hindu Man would probably mean she is no longer part of the Zoroastrianism community (just a hunch). However, I looked up this article and it does suggest that a full Parsi wedding includes the Parents blessing before it can occur in the Temple for their religion


https://www.culturalindia.net/weddings/regional-weddings/parsi-wedding.html

So maybe Parsi Men who could not find a young Parsi Women to marry because no Parents would bless the Union had to wed local Indian women. How that non Parsi woman was recognized into their faith tradition, not sure, but the article you cited does suggest that: Here is a quote

"The iMhg and Yhg frequency-based pairwise FST values indicate that through the male line the lay Parsis have a closer relationship to the lay Iranian Zoroastrians, but through the female line they have a closer relationship to the non-Zoroastrians from India"

I'm just pointing it out that they're admixed. Nothing wrong with it. Like you said happens everywhere.

Palermo Trapani
17-07-20, 14:58
ratchet_Fan: Ok, no problem. I was just wanting to stay focused on Freddy Mercury and his Parsi background and trying to understand his culture and family history and more about the Parsi in Iran. I had always assumed that the Iranians in India, thus Freddy Mercury's family, etc. had maintained a tightly structured ethnic community with no marriage outside their community. However, the article you linked indicated modern Parsi today have 25-33% admixture with Local people from India. That was good information.