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Tomenable
26-02-19, 17:52
I have uploaded to GEDmatch Genesis:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#10/43.8352/16.1831

Sample I3313, Bronze Age, 1500-900 BC (from Dalmatia), kit number - SZ6386770

This one is more north-western than Iron Age Bulgarian:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/37958-Iron-Age-Balkan-DNA-on-GEDmatch

Similarity Map:

https://i.imgur.com/uUNh7mx.png

K15 PCA Graph:

Croatians can be modeled as a mix of this sample and modern Belgorod:

https://i.imgur.com/l3vQ8Wu.png

Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 36.73
2 West_Med 23.57
3 East_Med 15.67
4 Baltic 13.11
5 West_Asian 8.04
6 Red_Sea 2.87

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 6.07
2 Portuguese 6.25
3 Spanish_Extremadura 6.73
4 Spanish_Cataluna 6.9
5 Spanish_Galicia 7.37
6 Spanish_Murcia 7.51
7 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 7.79
8 Spanish_Valencia 7.9
9 Spanish_Andalucia 8.18
10 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 8.76
11 French 9.14
12 Spanish_Cantabria 10.07
13 Spanish_Aragon 11.5
14 Southwest_French 11.53
15 Tuscan 11.71
16 West_German 14.36
17 South_Dutch 14.77
18 Romanian 16.27
19 Serbian 16.71
20 Bulgarian 17.78

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 78.3% North_Italian + 21.7% Southwest_English @ 1.95
2 80.2% North_Italian + 19.8% West_Scottish @ 1.99
3 80.1% North_Italian + 19.9% Irish @ 2.02
4 61% North_Italian + 39% French @ 2.17
5 79.9% North_Italian + 20.1% Orcadian @ 2.31
6 78% North_Italian + 22% Southeast_English @ 2.37
7 80.6% North_Italian + 19.4% North_Dutch @ 2.52
8 72.6% North_Italian + 27.4% South_Dutch @ 2.56
9 87.8% Spanish_Cataluna + 12.2% Georgian_Jewish @ 2.57
10 82.3% North_Italian + 17.7% Norwegian @ 2.69
11 80.9% North_Italian + 19.1% Danish @ 2.69
12 87.9% Spanish_Cataluna + 12.1% Kurdish @ 2.78
13 88.8% Spanish_Cataluna + 11.2% Georgian @ 2.81
14 86.9% Spanish_Cataluna + 13.1% Kumyk @ 2.82
15 87.8% Spanish_Cataluna + 12.2% Armenian @ 2.83
16 87.8% Spanish_Cataluna + 12.2% Adygei @ 2.85
17 72.5% North_Italian + 27.5% West_German @ 2.86
18 85.5% Spanish_Cataluna + 14.5% Turkish @ 2.87
19 86.9% Spanish_Cataluna + 13.1% Azeri @ 2.89
20 86% Spanish_Valencia + 14% Lezgin @ 2.9

Tomenable
26-02-19, 17:54
In this tool: http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

I3313 Bronze Age Dalmatia: Abscisse (x-axis): 338 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 271 pixel
I5769 Iron Age Bulgaria: Abscisse (x-axis): 446 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 393 pixel

So there was a west-east cline already in Pre-Slavic Balkans:

https://i.imgur.com/BvQlw0v.png

Trojet
26-02-19, 21:05
Can you please do the same thing for I4331 from the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe as well?

Gash
26-02-19, 21:56
This isn't the J2b2 L283 sample ? Please upload the J2b2 L283. I could do it also myself but how do you do it ?

mihaitzateo
26-02-19, 23:17
Very interesting.
It is known that Celts have been in Balkans, so these tests are rather supporting the idea that Celts came from East Europe and moved towards NW Europe.
In 1500-900 BC the Celts and the Thracians should have been already in Balkans.

Tomenable
26-02-19, 23:30
DNA Land Ancestry Report for this Ancient Dalmatian sample:

https://i.imgur.com/P40rUSY.png

Gash
27-02-19, 00:07
This is what it gets on MDLP World . Interesting

MDLP World:# Population Percent
1 South_and_West_European 52.54
2 North_and_East_European 20.61
3 Caucaus_Parsia 14.69
4 Middle_East 10.95
5 Sub_Saharian 0.44
6 Mesoamerican 0.36
7 Melanesian 0.26
8 Arctic_Amerind 0.15


Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian-North 3.09
2 Italian_North 5.35
3 Kosovar 6
4 Corsican 6.22
5 Provancal 7.13
6 Romania 7.99
7 Swiss 8.93
8 Portugese 9.11
9 Bulgarian 9.23
10 Montenegrin 10.04
11 Gagauz 10.09
12 Iberian 10.36
13 Macedonian 10.74
14 Spaniard 11.06
15 Greek_North 11.44
16 Greek_South 11.89
17 French 12.41
18 Greek_Center 12.61
19 Serbian 12.76
20 Italian-Center 13.38


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 81.7% Spaniard + 18.3% Georgian_Imereti @ 1.36
2 61% Kosovar + 39% Bulgarian @ 1.37
3 79.8% Spaniard + 20.2% Georgian_Laz @ 1.58
4 64.8% Kosovar + 35.2% Macedonian @ 1.7
5 63.4% Kosovar + 36.6% Gagauz @ 1.8
6 78.8% Spaniard + 21.2% Georgian @ 1.8
7 81.8% Spaniard + 18.2% Abhkasian @ 1.83
8 54% Basque + 46% Greek_Azov @ 1.92
9 65% Greek_North + 35% Basque @ 2.02
10 82.8% Iberian + 17.2% Abhkasian @ 2.2
11 63.7% Kosovar + 36.3% Montenegrin @ 2.24
12 90.8% Italian-North + 9.2% British @ 2.31
13 85.7% Italian-North + 14.3% French @ 2.32
14 80.1% Iberian + 19.9% Georgian @ 2.33
15 91.3% Italian-North + 8.7% Orcadian @ 2.33
16 91.3% Italian-North + 8.7% CEU @ 2.38
17 87.9% Italian-North + 12.1% German-South @ 2.4
18 91.9% Italian-North + 8.1% Welsh @ 2.41
19 77.9% Italian-North + 22.1% Provancal @ 2.43
20 93.1% Italian-North + 6.9% Norwegian_V @ 2.47

Archetype0ne
27-02-19, 00:23
All I will say is I feel vindicated.

Maybe an open mind would help some people, before calling others, conspiracy theorists.

But then again... Broken clocks, and twice a day xD

Homer on the other hand is like an atomic clock, right on point.
Virgil too I guess, LUL @Strabo and his Cyclops.

Maybe the Illiad, the Argonautica and the Aeneid deserve some more respect.

davef
27-02-19, 07:28
All I will say is I feel vindicated.

Maybe an open mind would help some people, before calling others, conspiracy theorists.

But then again... Broken clocks, and twice a day xD

Homer on the other hand is like an atomic clock, right on point.
Virgil too I guess, LUL @Strabo and his Cyclops.

Maybe the Illiad, the Argonautica and the Aeneid deserve some more respect.
Mmmmmmmm.....atooooomic doughnuuuuuutssss

Gash
27-02-19, 13:40
Puntdnal k10 ancient

Italian_North 2.052
Tuscan 5.73
Albanian 6.214
Bulgarian 6.865
Italian_South 7.046
Greek7.637
French 8.828
Spanish_Southwest9.969
Spanish_Northeast10.7210
German_South12.5311
Croatian13.0412
Sicilian14.1113
Hungarian14.9614
Utahn_white15.1715
Ashkenazi_Jew15.2316
Irish16.317
English_South17.3418
German_North18.9619
Czech19.1420
Scottish_West20.75

mihaitzateo
27-02-19, 15:03
I have uploaded to GEDmatch Genesis:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#10/43.8352/16.1831

Sample I3313, Bronze Age, 1500-900 BC (from Dalmatia), kit number - SZ6386770

This one is more north-western than Iron Age Bulgarian:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/37958-Iron-Age-Balkan-DNA-on-GEDmatch

Similarity Map:

https://i.imgur.com/uUNh7mx.png

K15 PCA Graph:

Croatians can be modeled as a mix of this sample and modern Belgorod:

https://i.imgur.com/l3vQ8Wu.png

Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 36.73
2 West_Med 23.57
3 East_Med 15.67
4 Baltic 13.11
5 West_Asian 8.04
6 Red_Sea 2.87

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 6.07
2 Portuguese 6.25
3 Spanish_Extremadura 6.73
4 Spanish_Cataluna 6.9
5 Spanish_Galicia 7.37
6 Spanish_Murcia 7.51
7 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 7.79
8 Spanish_Valencia 7.9
9 Spanish_Andalucia 8.18
10 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 8.76
11 French 9.14
12 Spanish_Cantabria 10.07
13 Spanish_Aragon 11.5
14 Southwest_French 11.53
15 Tuscan 11.71
16 West_German 14.36
17 South_Dutch 14.77
18 Romanian 16.27
19 Serbian 16.71
20 Bulgarian 17.78

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 78.3% North_Italian + 21.7% Southwest_English @ 1.95
2 80.2% North_Italian + 19.8% West_Scottish @ 1.99
3 80.1% North_Italian + 19.9% Irish @ 2.02
4 61% North_Italian + 39% French @ 2.17
5 79.9% North_Italian + 20.1% Orcadian @ 2.31
6 78% North_Italian + 22% Southeast_English @ 2.37
7 80.6% North_Italian + 19.4% North_Dutch @ 2.52
8 72.6% North_Italian + 27.4% South_Dutch @ 2.56
9 87.8% Spanish_Cataluna + 12.2% Georgian_Jewish @ 2.57
10 82.3% North_Italian + 17.7% Norwegian @ 2.69
11 80.9% North_Italian + 19.1% Danish @ 2.69
12 87.9% Spanish_Cataluna + 12.1% Kurdish @ 2.78
13 88.8% Spanish_Cataluna + 11.2% Georgian @ 2.81
14 86.9% Spanish_Cataluna + 13.1% Kumyk @ 2.82
15 87.8% Spanish_Cataluna + 12.2% Armenian @ 2.83
16 87.8% Spanish_Cataluna + 12.2% Adygei @ 2.85
17 72.5% North_Italian + 27.5% West_German @ 2.86
18 85.5% Spanish_Cataluna + 14.5% Turkish @ 2.87
19 86.9% Spanish_Cataluna + 13.1% Azeri @ 2.89
20 86% Spanish_Valencia + 14% Lezgin @ 2.9

I was thinking and it is possible that this sample could belong to an ethnic Celtic, from Balkans.
If more samples with similar clustering are found in different places from Balkans, only then is possible to say that the Thracians from those times were clustering closer to the North Italians and people from Iberia.

Salento
27-02-19, 15:44
Mmmmmmmm.....atooooomic doughnuuuuuutssss
Sound delicious, got to try me one of those! :satisfied:


They do say that many Legends come from seeds of facts.
Who knows.

mihaitzateo
27-02-19, 18:53
Another thing, this person could have been 3/4 Thracian and 1/4 Celtic and this would explain so well the results obtained.
If you do not believe that were Celts in Balkans, they were and this is attested by plenty of archaeological discoveries.
https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/
North Italians are Italo-Gaulish/Italo-Celtic mix, this is alto shown by the fact that the Lombard language is Gallo-Romance.
So, having this person clustering closest to North Italians and Iberians with some Gaulish blood it makes a lot of sense - Thracians were very close to Italic and Iberian people.
Now, Balkan people got Northern Shifted from mixing to the East Germanics, mostly and also, from Slavs.
Seems that the mixing with the Celts was also present but we do not know at what extent.

Gash
27-02-19, 19:11
The sample isn't a Celt because this sample dates back before Celts (Bronze Age) Its just a proto Ilyrian sample or pre historic Balkanite. Celts never reached the Balkans at that time. They came later. And if they did, they would of been like any other Bronze Age or Iron Age invader.

And its basically like a Northern Albanian Gheg but with a extra North West shift.

http://oi63.tinypic.com/289zseh.jpg

It can basically be moduled as 79% Balkan + 21% NW European / West European

Balkan in this case being a very vague term.

mihaitzateo
27-02-19, 20:28
The sample is from between 1500 AD to 900 AD, is written in the initial post.
Around 1100 AD the Celtic speakers were already on the current land of Austria, in Hallstatt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture#Hallstatt_type_site

It is supposed that in Central Europe, around 1200 BC, the Proto-Celtic language was spoken:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

There is no Albanian so Northern shifted and Albanians did mixed somehow with the Goths.
This is attested by today Albanians paternal lines.
So most of today Albanians should more Northern Shifted than the Albanians that were living in Albania around 100 AD.
As a side note, the name Albania comes from Celtic languages, meaning a high land.
Scotland is still called Albannach because is a more elevated land, not lowlands.

Archetype0ne
27-02-19, 20:39
The sample is from between 1500 AD to 900 AD, is written in the initial post.
Around 1100 AD the Celtic speakers were already on the current land of Austria, in Hallstatt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture#Hallstatt_type_site

It is supposed that in Central Europe, around 1200 BC, the Proto-Celtic language was spoken:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

There is no Albanian so Northern shifted and Albanians did mixed somehow with the Goths.
This is attested by today Albanians paternal lines.
So most of today Albanians should more Northern Shifted than the Albanians that were living in Albania around 100 AD.
As a side note, the name Albania comes from Celtic languages, meaning a high land.
Scotland is still called Albannach because is a more elevated land, not lowlands.

Agree on most of your points. According to ancient Greek mythology, Illyrians, Thracians and Celts were related.

https://i.imgur.com/vaRj161.png

Alp - Alb roots might be related. Depending on geographical location the root might stand for white, while in others it means mountains.

In Italian Alba means dusk. The side the Sun Rises.

Nik
27-02-19, 21:47
Perhaps it is best to say the Bronze Age dude was simply an Indo-European and could have lacked the local ancient Balkan admixture which gave birth later to Illyrians and Thracians. No need to speculate on his actual ethnicity.

Archetype0ne
27-02-19, 21:53
Perhaps it is best to say the Bronze Age dude was simply an Indo-European and could have lacked the local ancient Balkan admixture which gave birth later to Illyrians and Thracians. No need to speculate on his actual ethnicity.

Ditto Nik. One of the points I had an issue with.

mihaitzateo
27-02-19, 22:00
Agree on most of your points. According to ancient Greek mythology, Illyrians, Thracians and Celts were related.

https://i.imgur.com/vaRj161.png

Alp - Alb roots might be related. Depending on geographical location the root might stand for white, while in others it means mountains.

In Italian Alba means dusk. The side the Sun Rises.

Very interesting.

Tomenable
02-03-19, 22:37
Gash,

As requested I uploaded also I4331 Ancient Croatia with Y-DNA haplogroup J2b2a.

GEDmatch Genesis kit number - RL6378186

This male sample plots similar as the other Bronze Age Dalmatian (woman I3313):

Eurogenes K15 results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 23.44
2 West_Med 22.65
3 Atlantic 22.42
4 East_Med 15.28
5 West_Asian 8.93
6 Baltic 4.91
7 Eastern_Euro 1.65
8 Red_Sea 0.72
9 Amerindian 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 6.76
2 Portuguese 8.96
3 Spanish_Galicia 9.36
4 Spanish_Extremadura 9.87
5 Spanish_Cataluna 9.96
6 Spanish_Murcia 10.16
7 Tuscan 10.54
8 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 10.91
9 Spanish_Andalucia 11.83
10 Spanish_Valencia 12.28
11 French 12.71
12 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 12.77
13 Spanish_Cantabria 13.24
14 Spanish_Aragon 14.36
15 Southwest_French 15.29
16 Greek_Thessaly 16.34
17 Italian_Abruzzo 16.42
18 West_Sicilian 16.96
19 South_Dutch 17.54
20 West_German 17.65

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 83.9% North_Italian + 16.1% West_German @ 5.97
2 88.7% North_Italian + 11.3% Orcadian @ 6.02
3 90.2% North_Italian + 9.8% West_Norwegian @ 6.09
4 87.6% North_Italian + 12.4% Southwest_English @ 6.14
5 80% North_Italian + 20% French @ 6.17
6 89.1% North_Italian + 10.9% Southeast_English @ 6.24
7 90.9% North_Italian + 9.1% Norwegian @ 6.25
8 90.3% North_Italian + 9.7% North_Dutch @ 6.26
9 90.7% North_Italian + 9.3% West_Scottish @ 6.29
10 86.2% Portuguese + 13.8% Armenian @ 6.31
11 90.8% North_Italian + 9.2% Irish @ 6.33
12 91.8% North_Italian + 8.2% Swedish @ 6.34
13 85.3% Spanish_Galicia + 14.7% Armenian @ 6.35
14 91.2% North_Italian + 8.8% Danish @ 6.36
15 75.2% North_Italian + 24.8% Spanish_Galicia @ 6.38
16 88.7% North_Italian + 11.3% South_Dutch @ 6.43
17 76.7% North_Italian + 23.3% Portuguese @ 6.5
18 92.4% North_Italian + 7.6% North_German @ 6.51
19 84.1% Spanish_Cataluna + 15.9% Armenian @ 6.51
20 55.2% Spanish_Galicia + 44.8% Tuscan @ 6.54

https://i.imgur.com/If8VDiT.png

Similarity Map:

https://i.imgur.com/cyF1F2i.png

Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 34.32
2 West_Med 26.54
3 East_Med 18.52
4 Baltic 11
5 West_Asian 8.45
6 Red_Sea 0.92
7 Amerindian 0.24

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 3.55
2 Spanish_Andalucia 7.92
3 Spanish_Extremadura 7.97
4 Portuguese 8.34
5 Spanish_Valencia 8.59
6 Spanish_Murcia 8.74
7 Tuscan 9.11
8 Spanish_Cataluna 9.17
9 Spanish_Galicia 9.71
10 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 9.86
11 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 9.94
12 Spanish_Cantabria 11.66
13 Spanish_Aragon 12.39
14 Southwest_French 13.17
15 French 13.69
16 West_Sicilian 15.8
17 Italian_Abruzzo 15.84
18 Greek_Thessaly 16.64
19 Romanian 17.28
20 Bulgarian 18.05

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 90.9% North_Italian + 9.1% French_Basque @ 2.64
2 77% North_Italian + 23% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.77
3 54.8% Southwest_French + 45.2% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.78
4 84.2% Spanish_Valencia + 15.8% Armenian @ 2.81
5 85.2% North_Italian + 14.8% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.87
6 81.2% North_Italian + 18.8% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.92
7 82.4% North_Italian + 17.6% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.93
8 80.3% North_Italian + 19.7% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.94
9 84.5% Spanish_Valencia + 15.5% Georgian_Jewish @ 2.96
10 85.7% North_Italian + 14.3% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.01
11 87.4% North_Italian + 12.6% Southwest_French @ 3.03
12 65.9% Spanish_Valencia + 34.1% Italian_Abruzzo @ 3.05
13 70.7% Spanish_Cataluna + 29.3% South_Italian @ 3.05
14 70.7% Spanish_Valencia + 29.3% Central_Greek @ 3.06
15 82.5% North_Italian + 17.5% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.1
16 69.2% Spanish_Cataluna + 30.8% Central_Greek @ 3.14
17 58% Spanish_Cantabria + 42% Italian_Abruzzo @ 3.18
18 85.7% North_Italian + 14.3% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.18
19 69.3% Spanish_Andalucia + 30.7% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.19
20 82.6% North_Italian + 17.4% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.2

Nik
02-03-19, 23:04
Gash,

As requested I uploaded also I4331 Ancient Croatia with Y-DNA haplogroup J2b2a.

GEDmatch Genesis kit number - RL6378186

This male sample plots similar as the other Bronze Age Dalmatian (woman I3313):

Eurogenes K15 results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 23.44
2 West_Med 22.65
3 Atlantic 22.42
4 East_Med 15.28
5 West_Asian 8.93
6 Baltic 4.91
7 Eastern_Euro 1.65
8 Red_Sea 0.72
9 Amerindian 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 6.76
2 Portuguese 8.96
3 Spanish_Galicia 9.36
4 Spanish_Extremadura 9.87
5 Spanish_Cataluna 9.96
6 Spanish_Murcia 10.16
7 Tuscan 10.54
8 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 10.91
9 Spanish_Andalucia 11.83
10 Spanish_Valencia 12.28
11 French 12.71
12 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 12.77
13 Spanish_Cantabria 13.24
14 Spanish_Aragon 14.36
15 Southwest_French 15.29
16 Greek_Thessaly 16.34
17 Italian_Abruzzo 16.42
18 West_Sicilian 16.96
19 South_Dutch 17.54
20 West_German 17.65

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 83.9% North_Italian + 16.1% West_German @ 5.97
2 88.7% North_Italian + 11.3% Orcadian @ 6.02
3 90.2% North_Italian + 9.8% West_Norwegian @ 6.09
4 87.6% North_Italian + 12.4% Southwest_English @ 6.14
5 80% North_Italian + 20% French @ 6.17
6 89.1% North_Italian + 10.9% Southeast_English @ 6.24
7 90.9% North_Italian + 9.1% Norwegian @ 6.25
8 90.3% North_Italian + 9.7% North_Dutch @ 6.26
9 90.7% North_Italian + 9.3% West_Scottish @ 6.29
10 86.2% Portuguese + 13.8% Armenian @ 6.31
11 90.8% North_Italian + 9.2% Irish @ 6.33
12 91.8% North_Italian + 8.2% Swedish @ 6.34
13 85.3% Spanish_Galicia + 14.7% Armenian @ 6.35
14 91.2% North_Italian + 8.8% Danish @ 6.36
15 75.2% North_Italian + 24.8% Spanish_Galicia @ 6.38
16 88.7% North_Italian + 11.3% South_Dutch @ 6.43
17 76.7% North_Italian + 23.3% Portuguese @ 6.5
18 92.4% North_Italian + 7.6% North_German @ 6.51
19 84.1% Spanish_Cataluna + 15.9% Armenian @ 6.51
20 55.2% Spanish_Galicia + 44.8% Tuscan @ 6.54

https://i.imgur.com/If8VDiT.png

Similarity Map:

https://i.imgur.com/cyF1F2i.png

Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 34.32
2 West_Med 26.54
3 East_Med 18.52
4 Baltic 11
5 West_Asian 8.45
6 Red_Sea 0.92
7 Amerindian 0.24

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 3.55
2 Spanish_Andalucia 7.92
3 Spanish_Extremadura 7.97
4 Portuguese 8.34
5 Spanish_Valencia 8.59
6 Spanish_Murcia 8.74
7 Tuscan 9.11
8 Spanish_Cataluna 9.17
9 Spanish_Galicia 9.71
10 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 9.86
11 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 9.94
12 Spanish_Cantabria 11.66
13 Spanish_Aragon 12.39
14 Southwest_French 13.17
15 French 13.69
16 West_Sicilian 15.8
17 Italian_Abruzzo 15.84
18 Greek_Thessaly 16.64
19 Romanian 17.28
20 Bulgarian 18.05

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 90.9% North_Italian + 9.1% French_Basque @ 2.64
2 77% North_Italian + 23% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.77
3 54.8% Southwest_French + 45.2% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.78
4 84.2% Spanish_Valencia + 15.8% Armenian @ 2.81
5 85.2% North_Italian + 14.8% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.87
6 81.2% North_Italian + 18.8% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.92
7 82.4% North_Italian + 17.6% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.93
8 80.3% North_Italian + 19.7% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.94
9 84.5% Spanish_Valencia + 15.5% Georgian_Jewish @ 2.96
10 85.7% North_Italian + 14.3% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.01
11 87.4% North_Italian + 12.6% Southwest_French @ 3.03
12 65.9% Spanish_Valencia + 34.1% Italian_Abruzzo @ 3.05
13 70.7% Spanish_Cataluna + 29.3% South_Italian @ 3.05
14 70.7% Spanish_Valencia + 29.3% Central_Greek @ 3.06
15 82.5% North_Italian + 17.5% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.1
16 69.2% Spanish_Cataluna + 30.8% Central_Greek @ 3.14
17 58% Spanish_Cantabria + 42% Italian_Abruzzo @ 3.18
18 85.7% North_Italian + 14.3% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.18
19 69.3% Spanish_Andalucia + 30.7% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.19
20 82.6% North_Italian + 17.4% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.2
Great work mate! Much appreciated.

I don't want to waste your time with requests as you've already done a lot, but I keep wondering what would be the score on the Similarity Map if you single out only Gheg Albanian or North Albanian samples as that would leave out the vast majority of Slavic and Vlach admixture.

I wonder if the score instead of 65 would be around 71 since Epirus in Greece is 59, therefore South Albania should be lets say 59-61.

markod
03-03-19, 00:37
Great work mate! Much appreciated.
I don't want to waste your time with requests as you've already done a lot, but I keep wondering what would be the score on the Similarity Map if you single out only Gheg Albanian or North Albanian samples as that would leave out the vast majority of Slavic and Vlach admixture.
I wonder if the score instead of 65 would be around 71 since Epirus in Greece is 59, therefore South Albania should be lets say 59-61.
Slavic ancestry is unlikely to be the only thing pulling the Western Balkans away from that sample. There seems to be an additional layer of West Asian ancestry, which makes the Bronze Age Croatian sample look rather 'western' compared to the people who live in the region today.

Wonomyro
03-03-19, 01:52
Slavic ancestry is unlikely to be the only thing pulling the Western Balkans away from that sample. There seems to be an additional layer of West Asian ancestry, which makes the Bronze Age Croatian sample look rather 'western' compared to the people who live in the region today.

Croats plot pretty much between BA Croatia and East Slavs. Bulgarian case is, however, more interesting.

markod
03-03-19, 02:20
Croats plot pretty much between BA Croatia and East Slavs. Bulgarian case is, however, more interesting.

Yeah, Thrace should be one of the entry points of metal age West Asian ancestry into mainland Europe. Heavy Slavic input muddies things a bit, so it's difficult to say much more without ancient samples.

Tomenable
03-03-19, 02:21
I uploaded Bronze Age Bulgarian I2163, whose Y-DNA was R1a (but Indo-Iranian branch Z93, not Slavic):

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#11/42.1360/25.5602

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimitrovgrad,_Bulgaria

https://i.imgur.com/6HCLVgb.png

GEDmatch Genesis kit number - MW2273712

Eurogenes K15 results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 35.52
2 Eastern_Euro 19.23
3 Baltic 13.65
4 Atlantic 13.45
5 West_Asian 12.95
6 South_Asian 3.15
7 Amerindian 2.05

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Swedish 13.52
2 Swedish 15.34
3 Finnish 15.54
4 Southwest_Finnish 15.82
5 Norwegian 15.93
6 East_German 17.21
7 North_German 17.24
8 West_Norwegian 17.25
9 Danish 17.71
10 Hungarian 17.94
11 East_Finnish 18.02
12 North_Dutch 18.06
13 West_German 18.34
14 South_Polish 19.7
15 Ukrainian_Lviv 19.72
16 Ukrainian 19.84
17 Estonian 20.15
18 Orcadian 20.35
19 West_Scottish 20.42
20 South_Dutch 20.48

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.5% North_Swedish + 24.5% Tabassaran @ 7.58
2 77.6% North_Swedish + 22.4% Lezgin @ 8.3
3 79% North_Swedish + 21% Chechen @ 8.67
4 73.4% Swedish + 26.6% Tabassaran @ 9.11
5 81.6% North_Swedish + 18.4% Adygei @ 9.45
6 82.1% North_Swedish + 17.9% Ossetian @ 9.52
7 72.7% Norwegian + 27.3% Tabassaran @ 9.53
8 80.9% North_Swedish + 19.1% Kabardin @ 9.57
9 80.3% North_Swedish + 19.7% Afghan_Pashtun @ 9.58
10 82.5% North_Swedish + 17.5% Kalash @ 9.59
11 80.1% North_Swedish + 19.9% Kumyk @ 9.61
12 82.3% North_Swedish + 17.7% North_Ossetian @ 9.62
13 84.8% North_Swedish + 15.2% Abhkasian @ 9.66
14 81.6% North_Swedish + 18.4% Balkar @ 9.72
15 75.6% Swedish + 24.4% Lezgin @ 9.77
16 84.2% North_Swedish + 15.8% Georgian @ 9.81
17 70.5% West_Norwegian + 29.5% Tabassaran @ 9.87
18 83.5% North_Swedish + 16.5% Balochi @ 10.04
19 74.8% Norwegian + 25.2% Lezgin @ 10.11
20 84% North_Swedish + 16% Brahui @ 10.13

Eurogenes K15 PCA:

Abscisse (x-axis): 534 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 144 pixel

https://i.imgur.com/FvAghvC.png

Similarity Maps:

Russia & Asia:

https://i.imgur.com/pKDbtSS.png

And Europe:

https://i.imgur.com/9Ei4KCZ.png

^^^
From Eurogenes Blog:

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/05/steppe-invaders-in-bronze-age-balkans.html

"Bulgaria_MLBA I2163: Y-hg R1a1a1b2 mt-hg U5a2 1750-1625 calBCE

The most Yamnaya-like of all of the Balkan samples in Mathieson et al. 2017, and, as far as I can see based on his overall genome-wide results, probably indistinguishable from the contemporaneous Srubnaya people of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. He also belongs to Y-haplogroup R1a-Z93, which is a marker typical of Srubnaya and other closely related steppe groups such as Andronovo, Potapovka and Sintashta. So there's very little doubt that he's either a migrant or a recent descendant of migrants to the Balkans from the Pontic-Caspian steppe."

=====

Edit:

Some more calcs:

His results in puntDNAL K12:

puntDNAL K12 Ancient Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 European_HG 45.79
2 Caucasus_HG 27.88
3 Anatolian_NF 19.89
4 Beringian 3.41
5 Amerindian 1.41
6 South_Asian 1.31

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Srubnaya_I0232 @ 3.134314
2 Sintashta_MBA_RISE395 @ 3.797682
3 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0103 @ 3.900799
4 Andronovo_SG_RISE505 @ 4.797025
5 Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 @ 5.052248
6 Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 @ 5.825454
7 Srubnaya_I0430 @ 7.175141
8 Potapovka_I0419 @ 7.469271
9 Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00 @ 8.079706
10 BattleAxe_Sweden_SG_RISE94 @ 11.250714
11 Bell_Beaker_Czech_RISE569 @ 12.764265
12 Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549 @ 13.424397
13 BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 @ 13.650426
14 Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 @ 14.740792
15 Unetice_EBA_I0117 @ 14.801845
16 Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 @ 14.956509
17 Yamnaya_Samara_I0443 @ 15.883912
18 Alberstedt_LN_I0118 @ 16.527464
19 Scythian_IA_I0247 @ 16.988422
20 Afanasievo_SG_RISE511 @ 19.113752

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Andronovo_SG_RISE505 +50% Srubnaya_I0232 @ 2.810591

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Andronovo_SG_RISE505 +25% Srubnaya_I0232 +25% Srubnaya_I0232 @ 2.810591

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Andronovo_SG_RISE505 + Srubnaya_I0232 + Srubnaya_I0232 + Srubnaya_I0232 @ 2.597268
(...)

His results in MDLP K11:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 WHG 40.86
2 EHG 31.94
3 Neolithic 14.98
4 Iran-Mesolithic 7.98
5 Amerindian 2.13

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Srubnaya_LBA @ 4.859118
2 Sintashta_MBA @ 4.960232
3 Andronovo_Eneolithic @ 7.546394
4 Corded_Ware_Germany @ 7.561746
5 Corded_Ware_Germany @ 8.130066
6 Poltavka_MBA_outlier @ 8.672397
7 Corded_Ware_Estonia @ 9.067833
8 Nordic_BattleAxe @ 10.487313
9 Potapovka_BA @ 10.598248
10 Srubnaya_LBA_outlier @ 10.608652
11 Corded_Ware_Proto_Unetice_Poland @ 11.877763
12 Irish_BA @ 12.260816
13 BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN @ 12.415079
14 Nordic_BA @ 12.691585
15 Karsdorf_LN @ 13.087960
16 Nordic_LN @ 13.605470
17 Nordic_IA @ 13.647160
18 Unetice_MBA @ 13.749290
19 Unetice_EBA @ 14.416342
20 Nordic_LBA @ 14.966543

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Nordic_BattleAxe +50% Potapovka_BA @ 1.818545

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Afanasievo_Eneolithic +25% Hungary_BA +25% Sintashta_MBA @ 1.350623

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Hungary_BA + Sintashta_MBA + Yamnaya_Kalmykia_LBA + Yamnaya_Kalmykia_LBA @ 1.237987
(...)

Davidtab
03-03-19, 22:11
...........

MOESAN
07-03-19, 17:13
I was thinking and it is possible that this sample could belong to an ethnic Celtic, from Balkans.
If more samples with similar clustering are found in different places from Balkans, only then is possible to say that the Thracians from those times were clustering closer to the North Italians and people from Iberia.

WHat special links with Celts based on this? Please, explain

Sile
07-03-19, 17:30
Agree on most of your points. According to ancient Greek mythology, Illyrians, Thracians and Celts were related.
https://i.imgur.com/vaRj161.png
Alp - Alb roots might be related. Depending on geographical location the root might stand for white, while in others it means mountains.
In Italian Alba means dusk. The side the Sun Rises.
Until the middle of the second millennium BC, the Proto-Italo-Celto-Illyro-Thraco-Dacian was a single language. After that some phonological change appeared in different dialects of this proto-language. Namely in the dialect from the middle of this group from which evolved the Continental Celtic and the Oscan and Umbrian, the labiovelar (kʷ, gʷ) turned into bi-labials (p, b). The innovations affects all these languages (one should remember that the forefathers of Oscans and Umbrians migrated from the upper Danube valley into the Italian peninsula)

The Epirotes of ancient times lived where Albanians live today. Thucydides shows that the Epirotes were Illyrians, and they were speaking two different dialects. Strabo (7, 7) also shows that they lived south of river Shkumb and Illyrians to the north. The Romans used to make a clear distinction between Illyrians proprie dicti (proper) and Illyrians in general. In their understanding, Epirots were not Illyrians proper. Illyrians proper were those from Illyria, Dalmatia, and the two Pannonias.

.
.
I have previous supplied ( last 2 months ) another recent paper that oscans and umbrians ( sabellic and sabines ) migrated from upper danube valley into Italy

hrvclv
07-03-19, 22:43
https://i.imgur.com/fZwlSns.png

Not a very good fit, but that's the best I arrived at with what nMonte offered (and my patience allowed!) within an appropriate time frame.

MOESAN
08-03-19, 15:46
Until the middle of the second millennium BC, the Proto-Italo-Celto-Illyro-Thraco-Dacian was a single language. After that some phonological change appeared in different dialects of this proto-language. Namely in the dialect from the middle of this group from which evolved the Continental Celtic and the Oscan and Umbrian, the labiovelar (kʷ, gʷ) turned into bi-labials (p, b). The innovations affects all these languages (one should remember that the forefathers of Oscans and Umbrians migrated from the upper Danube valley into the Italian peninsula)

The Epirotes of ancient times lived where Albanians live today. Thucydides shows that the Epirotes were Illyrians, and they were speaking two different dialects. Strabo (7, 7) also shows that they lived south of river Shkumb and Illyrians to the north. The Romans used to make a clear distinction between Illyrians proprie dicti (proper) and Illyrians in general. In their understanding, Epirots were not Illyrians proper. Illyrians proper were those from Illyria, Dalmatia, and the two Pannonias.

.
.
I have previous supplied ( last 2 months ) another recent paper that oscans and umbrians ( sabellic and sabines ) migrated from upper danube valley into Italy

These languages have surely been close at first but scholars seem saying that BI S-Illyrian only is close to Getian (Dacian) and Thracian, and that Dalmatian and Pannonian were different, more akin to centum Italics. And I think that a part of the old western IEans including proto-Italics and proto-Celtics more or less close to Lusitanian, Ligurian and other unkown or badly known dialects had broken off from the ancient common branch of the central Danube regions. My opinion is that only the ones kept closer to Hungary have later undergone the labialisation, by a phenomenon of wave maybe linked to new elites integrated in the ancient groups in the Urnfields/Hallstatt meanwhile (?). I don't believe in distinct phenomenons here, rather in a propagation during a long enough time with slight demic exchanges and contacts kept between neighbouring pops despite the cores of the tongues families were already well separated. Even bilinguism of some parts of the pops cannot be completely excluded. Surely this kind of phonologic "waves" were more possible in time whe the languages families of same far origin were still close enough, compared to present. A substratum explanation seems less evident here, but I keep in mind the late propagation of the uvular devibrated 'R', BI in Germany and in France, withtout mentioning other languages : substrata here? snobism? natural convergence?

Dibran
09-03-19, 03:18
In this tool: http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

I3313 Bronze Age Dalmatia: Abscisse (x-axis): 338 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 271 pixel
I5769 Iron Age Bulgaria: Abscisse (x-axis): 446 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 393 pixel

So there was a west-east cline already in Pre-Slavic Balkans:

https://i.imgur.com/BvQlw0v.png

My sample plots slightly northeast of the ancient Bulgaria sample. Is that one Thracian?

mihaitzateo
09-03-19, 14:15
WHat special links with Celts based on this? Please, explain

Well, it is known that Celts came from Asia to Europe.
It is also known that Hallstatt was a location where Celts were dwelling in the Bronze Age and I think that in 1100 AD, Celts were present in Hallstatt.
So I supposed that Celts came from Asia and passed through Balkans and South Romania and from there, they moved North, after which they reached Hallstatt.

Kelmendasi
09-03-19, 16:26
Well, it is known that Celts came from Asia to Europe.
It is also known that Hallstatt was a location where Celts were dwelling in the Bronze Age and I think that in 1100 AD, Celts were present in Hallstatt.
So I supposed that Celts came from Asia and passed through Balkans and South Romania and from there, they moved North, after which they reached Hallstatt.
What are you basing this on? The Celts didn't come from Asian, they originate in Europe. Pre-Celtic was certainly spoken somewhere north of the Alps and possibly shows a connection to the Unetice, in turn Proto-Celtic is linked to the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures. They clearly originate around central Europe and not Asia.

Kelmendasi
09-03-19, 16:31
My sample plots slightly northeast of the ancient Bulgaria sample. Is that one Thracian?
Very likely that it was a Thracian. Going by the area where this sample was found, it's possible that it was part of the Moesi tribe of Thracians.

mihaitzateo
13-03-19, 23:12
Another sample from Balkans, from Iron Age, clusters close and more "South" of Italians from Tuscany.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/37958-Iron-Age-Balkan-DNA-on-GEDmatch?p=569642#post569642
So this sample was clearly a ThracoCelt.
See that it has clearly more North Atlantic admixture, than the sample from Lyaskovets.

Kelmendasi
14-03-19, 19:18
Another sample from Balkans, from Iron Age, clusters close and more "South" of Italians from Tuscany.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/37958-Iron-Age-Balkan-DNA-on-GEDmatch?p=569642#post569642
So this sample was clearly a ThracoCelt.
See that it has clearly more North Atlantic admixture, than the sample from Lyaskovets.
I don't know where you are getting this "Thraco-Celt" origin from. During this time period the Proto-Celts were still somewhere around central Europe in the Hallstatt culture. There isn't any evidence to suggest that the sample was partly Celtic or of Celtic origin. The Iron Age and Bronze Age are two separate periods, you shouldn't compare a Bronze Age sample with an Iron Age one. Iron Age samples should have more Neolithic admix going by how they were already mixed at that point, whilst this isn't necessarily the case for the Bronze Age. You should look at how the Bronze Age Bulgarian sample was nearly indistinguishable from Srubnaya samples, far more northern steppe shifted than this Bronze Age Croatian sample.

This Bronze Age Croatian sample is more like the BA Hungarian samples but with more of a SE shift.

http://oi67.tinypic.com/egtlch.jpg

ToBeOrNotToBe
14-03-19, 19:25
Very likely that it was a Thracian. Going by the area where this sample was found, it's possible that it was part of the Moesi tribe of Thracians.

I doubt it was a Thracian, or at least not a relatively pure Thracian. Thracians are clearly mostly Steppe - they're basically described in exactly the same way (down to appearances such as being very red haired) as Scythians. Maybe there was a Helot-style system going on (similarly to Thracians and Scythians, Spartans were described in the same way but to a lesser extent - they were seen as more civilised, and the descriptions of red hair aren't nearly as prevalent (I'm taking both of those to mean they were less Steppe-admixed, a big assumption but I bet it's true), though still common in the grand scheme of things). Also with the Scythian case weren't there some mostly Med. types amongst them?

I2163 is a likely example of a Srubnaya departure to the Balkans that can be associated with the ancestors of Thracians, so this is quite different. If it were the case that "pure" Thracians like I2163 (he's too old for that but just go with it) mixed so heavily so as to gain a mostly Med genetic signature, there would have to be heavy selection for red-haired genes to explain the red-headedness mentioned in antiquity.

markod
15-03-19, 00:48
I doubt it was a Thracian, or at least not a relatively pure Thracian. Thracians are clearly mostly Steppe - they're basically described in exactly the same way (down to appearances such as being very red haired) as Scythians. Maybe there was a Helot-style system going on (similarly to Thracians and Scythians, Spartans were described in the same way but to a lesser extent - they were seen as more civilised, and the descriptions of red hair aren't nearly as prevalent (I'm taking both of those to mean they were less Steppe-admixed, a big assumption but I bet it's true), though still common in the grand scheme of things). Also with the Scythian case weren't there some mostly Med. types amongst them?

I2163 is a likely example of a Srubnaya departure to the Balkans that can be associated with the ancestors of Thracians, so this is quite different. If it were the case that "pure" Thracians like I2163 (he's too old for that but just go with it) mixed so heavily so as to gain a mostly Med genetic signature, there would have to be heavy selection for red-haired genes to explain the red-headedness mentioned in antiquity.

There are a bunch of depictions of Thracians. Few redheads. Maybe the Ostrusha woman, but her hair looks more auburn.

Kelmendasi
15-03-19, 17:07
I doubt it was a Thracian, or at least not a relatively pure Thracian. Thracians are clearly mostly Steppe - they're basically described in exactly the same way (down to appearances such as being very red haired) as Scythians. Maybe there was a Helot-style system going on (similarly to Thracians and Scythians, Spartans were described in the same way but to a lesser extent - they were seen as more civilised, and the descriptions of red hair aren't nearly as prevalent (I'm taking both of those to mean they were less Steppe-admixed, a big assumption but I bet it's true), though still common in the grand scheme of things). Also with the Scythian case weren't there some mostly Med. types amongst them?

I2163 is a likely example of a Srubnaya departure to the Balkans that can be associated with the ancestors of Thracians, so this is quite different. If it were the case that "pure" Thracians like I2163 (he's too old for that but just go with it) mixed so heavily so as to gain a mostly Med genetic signature, there would have to be heavy selection for red-haired genes to explain the red-headedness mentioned in antiquity.
During the 6-5th centuries BC the area where this sample was from, and the vast majority of Bulgaria for that matter, was inhabited by Thracians. There wasn't any other group in that area. This sample obviously wasn't a pure Thracian or a Proto-Thracian speaker, as is suggested by it's genetics which are vastly different from the Bronze Age Bulgarian one which is more likely to have been representative for Proto-Thracians. This sample, like probably all Palaeo-Balkan groups at this point, was a mix of the Bronze Age invaders and the older(probably Sardinian-like) population. Despite it being radically different from Proto-Thracians, it was still likely a Thracian as it probably spoke Thracian.

There was also another Iron Age Thracian sample from Svilengrad(found in the Mezek tombs) that showed this southern shift(Sardinian-like), it is 100% clear that it was a Thracian. It turned out to be E-Z1919(maybe V13). However, another Thracian sample was found in a tumulus in southeastern Bulgaria but this one turned out to have been more Steppe shifted. It may have been R1b-Z2103.

As for the red hair among Thracians, I don't think ancient descriptions should be taken too seriously. They certainly didn't have a majority red haired population in my opinion.

ToBeOrNotToBe
15-03-19, 17:16
During the 6-5th centuries BC the area where this sample was from, and the vast majority of Bulgaria for that matter, was inhabited by Thracians. There wasn't any other group in that area. This sample obviously wasn't a pure Thracian or a Proto-Thracian speaker, as is suggested by it's genetics which are vastly different from the Bronze Age Bulgarian one which is more likely to have been representative for Proto-Thracians. This sample, like probably all Palaeo-Balkan groups at this point, was a mix of the Bronze Age invaders and the older(probably Sardinian-like) population. Despite it being radically different from Proto-Thracians, it was still likely a Thracian as it probably spoke Thracian.

There was also another Iron Age Thracian sample from Svilengrad(found in the Mezek tombs) that showed this southern shift(Sardinian-like), it is 100% clear that it was a Thracian. It turned out to be E-Z1919(maybe V13). However, another Thracian sample was found in a tumulus in southeastern Bulgaria but this one turned out to have been more Steppe shifted. It may have been R1b-Z2103.

As for the red hair among Thracians, I don't think ancient descriptions should be taken too seriously. They certainly didn't have a majority red haired population in my opinion.

Well not majority but unless all Greeks were colourblind or just plain stupid the point has to be accepted. It would be like saying the Irish are red-haired, not like 90% of them having red hair

Yetos
15-03-19, 18:03
Ok

By what I know
Red and Blond is something that can be detected,

Red hair also gives a colour in skin is after a gene, so it has a mark
Blond also has a shade in skin pigmentation and is after a gene, so it has a mark

the only we can not detected is the Brown and all the shades of brown from brown/blond to brown/red to dark brown.
cause brown mainly has not a typical gene, so no detected mark,

plz If I am worng correct me,
but I think that is the way it has,

Kelmendasi
15-03-19, 18:30
/h
Well not majority but unless all Greeks were colourblind or just plain stupid the point has to be accepted. It would be like saying the Irish are red-haired, not like 90% of them having red hair
I understand what you mean. But I still think that the descriptions shouldn't be taken too literally, it's possible that lighter brown hair could've been mistaken for red. They could be exaggerations, such as how the Slavs were claimed to have been all red haired when in fact Slavs have lower frequencies of red hair. Anthropologists iirc believed that Thracians looked almost exactly like Greeks. Anyhow, the point of my post was to show that despite being more SE shifted than her Bronze Age ancestors, the Iron Age sample from Lyaskovets was still most certainly a Thracian.

Pigmentation of ancient Bulgarian samples:
. Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2509) - Light skin, black hair, brown eyes
. Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2520) - Dark brown hair, blue eyes
. Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2510) - Light skin, dark brown hair, brown eyes
. Early Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2176) - Dark brown hair, brown eyes
. Early Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2175) - Black hair, blue eyes
. Early Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2165) - Light skin, black hair, brown eyes
. Mid-late Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2163) - Light skin, blond hair, blue eyes
. Iron Age Bulgaria(I5769) - Light skin, dark brown hair, blue eyes
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02/24/pigmentation-of-ancient-southeastern-europeans/

Tomenable
15-03-19, 21:27
Here is another Bronze Age Dalmatian:

I4332 Ancient Dalmatia - kit TX8387837

It seems that Ancient Western Balkans had people similar to modern North Italians.

While Eastern Balkans had people more similar to Albanians/Greeks/South Italians.

Edit:

Well actually Gash is right that West Balkan samples were also similar to Albanians.

Gash
15-03-19, 21:53
Here is another Bronze Age Dalmatian:

I4332 Ancient Dalmatia - kit TX8387837

It seems that Ancient Western Balkans had people similar to modern North Italians.

While Eastern Balkans had people more similar to Albanians/Greeks/South Italians.


Nope.

The Eastern Balkan samples weren't close to Albanians , except for that Iron Age due to high Neolithic, and even Albanians aren't identical , Albanians are as North as North Italians and as South as Sardinians too . The sample in the OP is still closer to Albanians even than that Iron Age Bulgaria , on k36 it has a similarity with Albania of 77 and it gets Albanian and Kosovar on the other calculators. Those other samples from East Balkans were much further away, plotting with Austrians and North East Euros and that Iron Age Southern shifted sample wasn't as close either.

The Bronze Age Dalmatian in the OP is the closest to Albanians followed by that J2b2 and the Iron Age in Bulgaria. The J2b2 is caring the same YDna as Albanians, shows there has been a genetic continuity in the Western Balkans since like the Bronze Age, atleast by Ydna. All those 3 late bronze age samples in Croatia are caring typical Albanian markers. Even the word Dalmatian was explained in the Albanian language


Those Bronze Age Dalmatians were also close to Bulgarians and Macedonians closer than they were to Serbs or Croats or Bosniaks, shows the Thracians and Ilyrians were genetically similar people.

All these samples are just prehistoric samples anyway but those samples found in Dalmatia are the closest thing to Albanians and also closer to Bulgarians and Macedonians than to Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks , many Albanians are skmilar to North Italians.




There was also a late bronze age sample from Montenegro that was plotting close to Albanians and Bulgarians , even closer than this.


for a guy who is into genetics you certainly dont seem to know much or even have an observation.

Gash
15-03-19, 22:12
The sample in the OP has a high similarity with Albania on k36, actually highest in the Balkans

https://i.imgur.com/uUNh7mx.png

K15 and K13 dont use Albanian samples , it gets Albanian and Kosovar on other calcs, if you look at the previous page , it just depends on what Albanian samples, same way it depends on what Bulgarians or Macedonians


Italian-North 3.092 Italian_North 5.353 Kosovar 6


The sample in Bulgaria had less genetic similarity with Albanians or even Bulgarians or Macedonians , it only got Albania at 67

https://i.imgur.com/p91cO6w.png




It is still closer to Albanians than to other Balkan people , but it doesnt get close Albanian on calcs like that other sample or even similarity ... and those populations cannot be modeled the way you claim


A lot of this also depends on what samples you use for these populations like Albanians, Bulgarians and Macedonians

the sample from Dalmatia in OP is still closer to certain Albanians, Bulgarians and Macedonians

Italian_North 2.052Tuscan 5.73Albanian 6.214Bulgarian 6.865


A lot of this closeness is also just genetic similarity ,


I cannot see how Eastern Balkan samples were closer , except for the Iron Age in Bulgaria and it still isnt as close as that Dalmatian as you can see.

And the Bulgarian being close is genetic similarity rather than ancestry considering Albanians are west Balkanites , same way Macedonians and Bulgarians are Eastern yet closer to the Dalmatian .

Gash
15-03-19, 22:17
Interesting how you magically reached to the conclusion that Eastern Balkan samples were closer when you clearly see that those Western Balkan samples are closer and they also carry typical Albanian markers , Albanians are also nothing like South Italians except for some really southern shifted ones.


That sample in Bulgaria isnt even that much closer to Greeks by the looks of it than Greeks are to that Bronze Age sample in the OP. And any closeness would just be Neolithic like ancestry

markod
15-03-19, 22:20
Those Western Balkan samples were more 'western' than the present day inhabitants. Tomenable is right.

Gash
15-03-19, 22:38
Those Western Balkan samples were more 'western' than the present day inhabitants. Tomenable is right.

He isn't right at all. Those Western Balkan samples are still closer despite where they plot. And they even plot closer to certain North Albanians than that other sample. They are just more Western shifted. Look at the evidence I posted , especially the sample in the OP, despite where it plots , it is still closer as you can see , it has a higher similarity . What exactly is he right about ? The sample in Bulgaria was also more West than present day inhabitants and way more South than most Albanians. Plotting means literally nothing , even by plotting , those samples in Dalmatia are closer to many Northern Albanians, Bulgarians etc than that sample in Bulgaria. As it being more West than Albanians changes that when that other sample in Bulgaria is way more South than most.

You seem to emphasis a lot on West , and plotting.

A lot of Albanians are West shifted but not as West shifted as that sample. A lot of Albanians are like North Italians / Tuscans , only East and not like South Italians , only some are. The other Dalmatian J2b2 carries also a typical Albanian marker.


Other Eastern Balkan samples were plotting with Austrians and North East Euros, the Iron Age sample Bulgaria is the only one that is like this and it still isnt closer than those Bronze Age samples in Dalmatia, it is only closer to some really southern shifted Balkanites ... Northern Albanians / Kosovars arent like South Italians. Those samples in Dalmatia are closer despite they are more West because that Bulgarian is more South.

Based on one single sample from Bulgaria this guy reaches to the conclusion that they were closer while ignoring those other Iron Age samples from Bulgaria found that were very different

Gash
15-03-19, 22:56
Because the samples from Dalmatia are more West doesn't make them less close when that sample from Bulgaria was more South ... Its just a Neolithic like sample , that Ev13 in Croatia would probably plot something similar , which shows you it has nothing to do with West or East nor can the origin of people be assigned based on these samples alone , especially when all these samples are very different from each other depending on the time frame despite coming from same area . There is literally nothing that suggests these samples are historical Ilyrians or Thracians but more like Proto. There is a reason why most of these samples arent plotting with modern Balkanites.

That sample found in Bulgaria wasnt closer to North Albanians, Bulgarians or Macedonians , the Dalmatian in the OP is closer .... the one from Bulgaria was way more South .

the way he also models modern Balkan populations is totally wrong. This dude and many people on other forums have no idea about Albanian or Balkan genetics and lump us all together, North Albanians are nothing like South Italians, we are closer to North Italians and Tuscans like those samples from Dalmatia , only difference is that they are more west and a bit more north but there are Albanians who are as North as that sample.

Just look at its k36 , the sample from Dalmatia has a higher similarity with Albania , on calcs it gets Albanian and Kosovar as top 3 countries / ethnicites , it is closer to many North Albanians / Kosovars than that sample found in Bulgaria which is way more Southern shifted which is literally why the Dalmatian is getting Albania as closer , weather West or Not .... there was a sample from Late Bronze Age Montenegro that was even closer , plotting with Bulgarians / North Albanians. All Western Balkan samples also carry typical Albanian markers , especially J2b2 L283. The J2b2 was less close but still carries a typical marker and the Bulgarian wasnt much closer.


You're ignoring genetic similarity in favor of West shifted plotting ... what does it even matter I wonder when that sample in Bulgaria is more South shifted than most Balkanites , It still doesnt change that sample from Dalmatia in OP is closer , and even by plotting it is closer to many North Albanians / Kosovars and Bulgarians , it is just more Western and a bit more North

Kelmendasi
16-03-19, 00:12
Here is another Bronze Age Dalmatian:

I4332 Ancient Dalmatia - kit TX8387837

It seems that Ancient Western Balkans had people similar to modern North Italians.

While Eastern Balkans had people more similar to Albanians/Greeks/South Italians.
Not really accurate since the western Balkan samples are Bronze Age and the eastern Balkan samples you are talking about are Iron Age. We should compare samples from the same time frame. The Bronze Age Dalmatian samples are far closer to Albanians than the Bronze Age Bulgarian samples. The Bronze Age Bulgarian guy was practically indistinguishable from Srubnaya individuals.

Gash
16-03-19, 00:23
Let me exlplain myself better to show you that I am right and you're both wrong. As this guy is extremely biased obviously based on his conclusion. It is mind boggling how people manipulative genetic evidence to suit their own agenda.

1. The bronze age sample in Dalmatia might of been more Western shifted than Albanians but that sample from Bulgaria is more Southern shifted , this doesnt make the sample from Bulgaria closer , if you look at the K36 similarity, the Bronze Age sample in Dalmatia in the OP has a higher similarity with Albania at 77 while the one in Bulgaria gets 66. Of course this depends on what Albanians. North Albanians / Kosovars are like North Italians / Tuscans while some Southern Albanians are more south like that sample , this doesnt mean they derive their ancestry from such a sample , same way Greeks or South Italians literally have nothing to do with some sample from Bulgaria, its just shared Neolithic ancestry.

2. The Bronze Age sample in Dalmatia gets Kosovar and Albanian as top 3 ethnicties in many calculators that uses Albanian samples, while the sample from Bulgaria doesnt get it as close. Once again making the sample from Dalmatia closer to Albanians, atleast Gheg Albanians.

3. The other sample from Dalmatia which is found in the same time frame carried a typical North Albanian marker , J2b2 L283. Autosomally it wasnt as close as the first one, but still not much less close than the one from Bulgaria. Once again closer to Albanians. Pretty much all these Late Bronze Age samples in West Balkans are closer to North Albanians, although not 100% identical and carry typical Albanian markers, J2b2 l23 , R1b - z2103

This all means the sample from Bulgaria isn't closer to Albanians , and if it is its some Southern Albanians who are Sicilian like rather than North Albanians. You can't base peoples origin on such a sample either.

But every evidence points that Albanians are Ilyrians that lived in the Western Balkans for thousands of years. That sample in Bulgaria isn't a Thracian btw. Its just a Neolithic sample. Thracians were probably genetically similar people to Ilyrians. You can see this also by the fact that Macedonians and Bulgarians were also close to those West Balkan Bronze Age samples. There have been actual Thracian samples found and they plotted with Tuscans. They were closer to Albanians but its most likely due to Thracians and Ilyrians being autosomally similar.

There was also a Late Bronze Age sample found in Montenegro that plotted with Bulgarians, basically where a lot of North Albanians also plot.

Late Bronze Age Balkan samples from West Balkans are basically closer to Albanians than any other samples found in the Balkans and carry typical Albanian markers.


East Balkan samples weren't closer ... Other samples found in East Balkan were like Austrians and North East Europeans , that Iron Age was the most Souhthern one and the most closest one but still not any closer than Late Bronze Age West Balkan samples.


There is literally nothing right about what this guy is saying and the way he is modelling modern Balkan populations based on these samples is also totally wrong. The way he reaches to conclusions is absolutely nonsense. He is literally trying to say that Ancient East Balkanites were like us while West Balkanites werent which is wrong and he bases this off one sample which isnt even closer .... All these ancient Balkan samples are acrually very different from eachother depending on the time frame despite they are found in same areas , which makes what this guy says wrong again.

Even if there was one sample that was closer doesnt mean we derive our ancestry from such a sample but maybe also a population that was genetically similar.

The J2b2 L283 in Albanians is of West Balkan origin and strengthen an Ilyrian origin, even the word Dalmatia has been explained in the Albanian language

Its too bad dudes like this use this to manipulate things into their own agenda. He's just lying anyway.

Angela
16-03-19, 00:50
Those Western Balkan samples were more 'western' than the present day inhabitants. Tomenable is right.

Absolutely.

The data is clear. I don't see the point of arguing about it.

The way to figure out what the Thracians were like is by testing the samples in Thracian tombs, from the Thracian period, buried with and by the funeral rituals of the Thracians.

You don't start out by just "stating" what you think the Thracians should have been like. They seem to have been formed from the addition of some steppe ancestry to the typical Late Neolithic farmer population of the Balkans.

The Slavs are from a much later period.

Gash
16-03-19, 00:53
Not really accurate since the western Balkan samples are Bronze Age and the eastern Balkan samples you are talking about are Iron Age. We should compare samples from the same time frame. The Bronze Age Dalmatian samples are far closer to Albanians than the Bronze Age Bulgarian samples. The Bronze Age Bulgarian guy was practically indistinguishable from Srubnaya individuals.

Very good point. Shows how biased this dude is. Uses one sample to reach to a conclusion. Those bronze age samples in Dalmatia were still closer to Albos than that Iron Age and carried typical Albanian markers even if they werent 100 % identical ... obviously Albanian J2b2 l283 and R1b derive from a Western Balkan source, meaning Ilyrian.

No matter much genetic evidence people like this will manipulate it to suit their agenda , now hes fed another generation of Serbian nationalists and Bosniensis nutcases. I am out of these forums. Let these losers have it.

Albanians atleast , North Albanians are nothing like South Italians ... I get mostly Tuscan and North Italian on these calcs. Some more Southern Albos are South Italian like, we cant all be lumped the same.


That sample from Bulgaria isn't really an Iron Age btw ... atleast Iron Age doesnt seem to be a specific time frame , it dates back much earlier than other Iron Age samples. To me it almost seems Neolithic.

East Balkan samples also carried markers that arent even found in Albanians

Gash
16-03-19, 01:41
Absolutely.

The data is clear. I don't see the point of arguing about it.

The way to figure out what the Thracians were like is by testing the samples in Thracian tombs, from the Thracian period, buried with and by the funeral rituals of the Thracians.

You don't start out by just "stating" what you think the Thracians should have been like. They seem to have been formed from the addition of some steppe ancestry to the typical Late Neolithic farmer population of the Balkans.

The Slavs are from a much later period.

I'm not sure what you mean but the data isn't clear at all and is showing you what I'm telling you but whatever

The sample found in Bulgaria isn't closer to Albanians , it's more Southern than most Albanians while the sample found in Dalmatia is more Western. I am not disputing that it is more western but this doesn't make the sample from Bulgaria closer or East Balkan samples closer. The data shows the sample from Dalmatia is still closer to Albanians , Bulgarians and Macedonians and they also carried typical Albanian markers in those areas. All Bronze Age samples found in West Balkans carried typical Albanian markers. J2b2 L283 especially.

The samples from Dalmatia are closer this is why it has a higher similarity on K36 compared to the one from Bulgaria , it is also getting Kosovar and Albanian on calculators much closer than that sample from Bulgaria so not sure what you mean that the data is clear .... The sample from Bulgaria is only closer to some really Southern shifted Albanians and some Greeks and South Italians.

Also most East Balkan samples were nothing like Albanians either , Bronze Age samples found in Bulgaria were plotting with Austrians and North East Europeans. Totally contradicts what this guy is saying that East Balkan samples were closer. He is just using that Iron Age to reach to such a conclusion.

While the Bronze Age samples in west Balkans that have been found are closer to Albanians , Bulgarians, Macedonians etc than the Bronze Age samples found in East Balkans , they also carried typical Albanian markers like J2b2 L283 , R1bz2103 as I said.

You can just take a look at the calculator results I posted to see that I am right ,

There was another Late Bronze Age sample found in Montenegro that was also closer to Albanians, Bulgarians etc and even much closer than this which was called Jaz1

http://oi66.tinypic.com/2n9xiz8.jpg

The plotting of Albanians depends a lot, there are Albanians that plot where those Bulgarians plot .... but you can see this Bronze Age Montenigrin is also closer than that Iron Age found in East Balkans , it also closer than the Bronze Age samples found in East Balkans ... Its closer to Greeks even ... its also EASTERN SHIFTED as you can see and not Western

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303044230_Preliminary_results_of_a_prehistoric_hum an_ancient_DNA_time_series_from_coastal_and_hinter land_Croatia


Pretty much all Bronze Age samples found in West Balkans are closer to Albanians , Greeks , Bulgarians , Macedonians than Bonze Age samples found in East Balkans ....

I cannot see how ancient East Balkanites were closer to us , he just used one Iron Age sample from Bulgaria to compare to West Balkan samples yet ignores those other Bronze Age samples in East Balkans that werent as close .... and even this Iron Age isnt close either ... you cant just lump all people of the Balkan together either ... Alao most of our ydna markers derive from Late bronze Age West balkan samples.


The data is clear here and its saying what I am saying . Also Im not saying I think what Thracians were like . There were actual Thracian samples found that plotted with Tuscans and not Neolithic or Bronze Age or Iron Age. They were later deleted.


This guy reaches to conclusion claiming Ancient East Balkan people were closer to us than West Balkan based on one Iron Age sample when the data shows something totally different when you compare all samples together and also Ydna markers its obvious West Balkan samples are closer... he also used samples to compare that were at different time frames such as Iron Age vs Bronze Age which is wrong,

Gash
16-03-19, 02:10
If you don't believe that the OP is biased and most of you then let me phrase it again before I take a hike as the data is pretty clear


1. All Bronze Age samples found in the West Balkans were closer to Albanians than Bronze Age samples found in the East Balkans , these Late Bronze Age samples found in West Balkan even carried typical Albanian YDNA markers J2b2 L283 and R1b z0913 .... Bronze Age samples found in East Balkans were plotting with East Europeans and Austrians, they had I2a2 markers and R1a ... I2a2 is only found in South Albania at low levels .

Late Bronze Age sample from Montenegro was pretty much plotting with Bulgarians. Where a lot of Albanians plot and isnt too far away and even closer than the Dalmatian.


What this dude does is that he ignores this and uses the Iron Age from Bulgaria to conclude that Ancient East Balkan people were closer ... to compare, he uses samples from different time frames to reach to such a conclusion. It is rather hilarious how someone can be so biased.

Instead of also using Bronze Age samples from East Balkans to compare to Bronze Age samples from West Balkans, he uses that one single Iron Age and even that one isnt really closer. Especially not when compared autosomally to that female Dalmatian or the one from Montenegro.


To me the data is pretty clear.

I am out and have fun.

Kelmendasi
16-03-19, 02:46
Absolutely.

The data is clear. I don't see the point of arguing about it.

The way to figure out what the Thracians were like is by testing the samples in Thracian tombs, from the Thracian period, buried with and by the funeral rituals of the Thracians.

You don't start out by just "stating" what you think the Thracians should have been like. They seem to have been formed from the addition of some steppe ancestry to the typical Late Neolithic farmer population of the Balkans.

The Slavs are from a much later period.
Thracian samples have been tested, 3 from the Iron Age. 2 of the samples had a higher amount of EEF ancestry which has made some people think that there was some sort of genetic continuation from the Neolithic, but culturally and linguistically these samples were most certainly what would've been called Thracian. 1 was buried near the Mezek tombs whilst the other in Lyaskovets. The other sample had a higher percentage of steppe admix than the other two and was found in a kurgan in southeastern Bulgaria. The sample which was located near Mezek was tested as E-V13* whilst the one in the Kurgan was likely R1b-Z2103.

Tomenable
16-03-19, 03:06
One Visigoth from Spain - I12031 - clusters with modern Serbs and has Balkan Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1a1b1a.

This is Balkan haplogroup E-V13:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-v13/about

Angela
16-03-19, 03:14
Thracian samples have been tested, 3 from the Iron Age. 2 of the samples had a higher amount of EEF ancestry which has made some people think that there was some sort of genetic continuation from the Neolithic, but culturally and linguistically these samples were most certainly what would've been called Thracian. 1 was buried near the Mezek tombs whilst the other in Lyaskovets. The other sample had a higher percentage of steppe admix than the other two and was found in a kurgan in southeastern Bulgaria. The sample which was located near Mezek was tested as E-V13* whilst the one in the Kurgan was likely R1b-Z2103.

I know they've been tested. That was my point. They have nothing to do with Slavs.

I have no idea why you think there's a contradiction between the two things you mention in the bolded phrase. Steppe people definitely admixed with the people they encountered in the Balkans. Look at the Mycenaeans. They've always been the pre-eminent example of an Indo-European steppe derived people, they spoke an Indo-European language, yet they carried only about 10-19% actual steppe ancestry.

@Tomenable,

Thanks for that. Perhaps you should post that on the Olalde thread. It supports Markod's idea that the Visigoths were a confederation of various groups picked up along the way, like the Huns, not a collection of Germanic tribes.

ToBeOrNotToBe
16-03-19, 03:17
/h
I understand what you mean. But I still think that the descriptions shouldn't be taken too literally, it's possible that lighter brown hair could've been mistaken for red. They could be exaggerations, such as how the Slavs were claimed to have been all red haired when in fact Slavs have lower frequencies of red hair. Anthropologists iirc believed that Thracians looked almost exactly like Greeks. Anyhow, the point of my post was to show that despite being more SE shifted than her Bronze Age ancestors, the Iron Age sample from Lyaskovets was still most certainly a Thracian.

Pigmentation of ancient Bulgarian samples:
. Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2509) - Light skin, black hair, brown eyes
. Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2520) - Dark brown hair, blue eyes
. Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2510) - Light skin, dark brown hair, brown eyes
. Early Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2176) - Dark brown hair, brown eyes
. Early Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2175) - Black hair, blue eyes
. Early Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2165) - Light skin, black hair, brown eyes
. Mid-late Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2163) - Light skin, blond hair, blue eyes
. Iron Age Bulgaria(I5769) - Light skin, dark brown hair, blue eyes
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02/24/pigmentation-of-ancient-southeastern-europeans/

How is it possible lighter brown hair would be mistaken for red? What about the various artistic depictions of the Thracians on top of what they wrote?

Make up your mind from this below, though I will address the criticisms: firstly Dr. Cohen is, to be frank, being an "anti-Nazi" which is understandable but not evidence-based - we are obviously to expect to find people in that region genetically much more "Northern European" than any modern Bulgarian, so there's no reason why the same could not be true for pigmentation that practically by definition follows genotype. As regarding the claim that the Slavs, Scythians etc. were red-haired when Eastern Europeans aren't so much now, I'll refer you to Maciamo's analysis (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30940-Autosomal-analysis-of-Yamna-Corded-Ware-and-Bell-Beaker-samples) of Corded Ware genomes, which are more closely related to Western Europeans than Eastern Europeans (basically, Corded Ware has much higher Western European than Eastern European and also prefers Gedrosian rather than Caucasian, which is the case in the West too (https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif) and mirrors the distribution of red hair in Europe (https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/red_hair_map_europe.jpg)).

Finally, to all but the mentally blind, it's clear that red-hair is underrepresented by phenotypical calculators (I think blonde hair is also overrepresented) - as an example British Bell Beakers apparently have NO red hair, which is a dead giveaway. You can check this (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/pigmentation/) with modern populations as Genetiker tested them for hair colour etc. and it fits perfectly - phenotypical calculators give modern Brits far too much blonde hair and too little red hair.

https://i.imgur.com/5QA7Ifg.png

If I am to remain open-minded, the ONLY other possibility that could be considered realistic is a situation like Germanic tribes (e.g. Suebi) who would dye their hair red for battle. However that doesn't explain why e.g. so many Thracian personal names referred to red hair.https://imgur.com/5QA7Ifg
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30940-Autosomal-analysis-of-Yamna-Corded-Ware-and-Bell-Beaker-samples

ToBeOrNotToBe
16-03-19, 03:49
One Visigoth from Spain - I12031 - clusters with modern Serbs and has Balkan Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1a1b1a.

This is Balkan haplogroup E-V13:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-v13/about

How do we know he's a Visigoth and not some sort of slave - what was his burial like and when was it dated to? I'd expect that person not to be an actual Visigoth but rather to be a slave or maybe a mercenary (especially given the Y DNA, any mixing would be female-mediated and the Visigoths by and large kept to themselves (which is alluded to in the origin of the term "blue-blooded")).

ToBeOrNotToBe
16-03-19, 03:59
Thracian samples have been tested, 3 from the Iron Age. 2 of the samples had a higher amount of EEF ancestry which has made some people think that there was some sort of genetic continuation from the Neolithic, but culturally and linguistically these samples were most certainly what would've been called Thracian. 1 was buried near the Mezek tombs whilst the other in Lyaskovets. The other sample had a higher percentage of steppe admix than the other two and was found in a kurgan in southeastern Bulgaria. The sample which was located near Mezek was tested as E-V13* whilst the one in the Kurgan was likely R1b-Z2103.

Huh, almost exactly (actually exactly exactly) like what I wrote about the hierarchies amongst Mycenaeans/ancient Greeks earlier. I hope it doesn't come as too much of a shock if we find that the Greeks - so far apparently only Y DNA J if you want a giveaway clue - were actually genetically diverse through separation of class. I'm just going by their word after all (that post I wrote as too long, basically Z2103 and minor J = upper class; J, minor Z2103 and E-V13 = middle class; E-V13 and minor J and Z2103 = lower class (freedmen + slaves). Pre-pelasgian farmer population E-V13 with some G2a, then Y DNA J Pelasgians invade and dominate over the natives, then Y DNA Z2103 Hellenics repeat this process. Introduction of most R1a and I2a with later Slavic invasions.)

xri34
16-03-19, 04:26
Can assume that the Bronze Age Bulgaria sample with Y-DNA R-Z93 was a Proto-Thracian?

ToBeOrNotToBe
16-03-19, 04:56
Can assume that the Bronze Age Bulgaria sample with Y-DNA R-Z93 was a Proto-Thracian?

I do at least.

xri34
16-03-19, 05:17
I do at least.
It is also suggested that he could be a Proto-Greek. He could also be an outlier in my opinion. R-Z93 is very rare in Balkans nowdays. What I think is that a minority of IE settlers in Balkans could be from Srubna culture and this could justify the R-Z93 sample. My haplogroup is a subclade of R-Z93 and I share common segments on gedmatch with this sample.

ToBeOrNotToBe
16-03-19, 05:26
It is also suggested that he could be a Proto-Greek. He could also be an outlier in my opinion. R-Z93 is very rare in Balkans nowdays. What I think is that a minority of IE settlers in Balkans could be from Srubna culture and this could justify the R-Z93 sample. My haplogroup is a subclade of R-Z93 and I share common segments on gedmatch with this sample.

Well it's likely to come from Srubnaya so it wouldn't be proto-Greek but instead (Cimmero-)Daco-Thracian. Proto-Greek more than likely comes from Catacomb, before satemisation innovations took place on the Steppe, so associated with Z2103. Armenian is the same, but they seem to have been influenced by this satemisation. I'd guess that would be because perhaps they left from Late Catacomb rather than somewhat earlier like the Greeks, or perhaps because of the much later Iranian influence. I'd guess the former to be correct, especially as it also explains why Armenian is only "partially" satemised (though I don't know the details of that).

xri34
16-03-19, 05:44
Well it's likely to come from Srubnaya so it wouldn't be proto-Greek but instead (Cimmero-)Daco-Thracian. Proto-Greek more than likely comes from Catacomb, before satemisation innovations took place on the Steppe, so associated with Z2103. Armenian is the same, but they seem to have been influenced by this satemisation. I'd guess that would be because perhaps they left from Late Catacomb rather than somewhat earlier like the Greeks, or perhaps because of the much later Iranian influence. I'd guess the former to be correct, especially as it also explains why Armenian is only "partially" satemised (though I don't know the details of that).
So Daco-Thracians were R1b-Z2103 but also to some extent R-Z93 due to interractions with Srubnaya(satemisation) while Proto-Greeks only R1b-Z2103? This could explain the low frequency of Z93 in Balkans I think.

Tomenable
16-03-19, 05:44
the Visigoths by and large kept to themselves (which is alluded to in the origin of the term "blue-blooded")

Maybe they kept to themselves in the same way as Americans keep to themselves and don't mix with e.g. Canadians (not sure if this is really the case, but you know what I mean - American is an identity but it is not one genetic cluster; you can imagine that some White Pride Americans keep to themselves despite not being a genetically homogeneous group: some White Nationalists are Russian, some British, some German, etc.).

Something about the size of those tribes (apparently they were incorporating foreigners into their ranks):

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015005286961;view=1up;seq=100

Documentary:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcuVJUKZvx4

Angela
16-03-19, 05:53
So Daco-Thracians were R1b-Z2103 but also to some extent R-Z93 due to interractions with Srubnaya(satemisation) while Proto-Greeks only R1b-Z2103? This could explain the low frequency of Z93 in Balkans I think.

Please don't mistake the certitude with which some people post for the purveying of correct information.

We have no idea what R1b, if any, the Mycenaeans carried. The only ydna we have for them so far is J2a.

ToBeOrNotToBe
16-03-19, 05:55
So Daco-Thracians were R1b-Z2103 but also to some extent R-Z93 due to interractions with Srubnaya(satemisation) while Proto-Greeks only R1b-Z2103? This could explain the low frequency of Z93 in Balkans I think.

No I think Daco-Thracians at least at first were mostly R1a-Z93. I don't think they were influenced from Srubnaya, I think they came from Srubnaya.

Angela
16-03-19, 05:56
How do we know he's a Visigoth and not some sort of slave - what was his burial like and when was it dated to? I'd expect that person not to be an actual Visigoth but rather to be a slave or maybe a mercenary (especially given the Y DNA, any mixing would be female-mediated and the Visigoths by and large kept to themselves (which is alluded to in the origin of the term "blue-blooded")).

Why don't you check the archaeology in the supplement and find out?

Goodness. You remind me of Fire-Haired. He never would read anything either.

ToBeOrNotToBe
16-03-19, 05:58
Please don't mistake the certitude with which some people post for the purveying of correct information.

We have no idea what R1b, if any, the Mycenaeans carried. The only ydna we have for them so far is J2a.

Instead of ad hominems you can at least give your arguments. It's obvious to anybody with half a brain, and that includes you as you're clearly intelligent, that R1b spread Hellenic languages to Greece. That R1b was also obviously Z2103, no other candidate exists. R1a is a possibility instead but R1a in Greece if I'm not mistaken is actually mostly Slavic for one thing, but also it doesn't make a difference as to the basic argument of hierarchies.

xri34
16-03-19, 06:00
Please don't mistake the certitude with which some people post for the purveying of correct information.

We have no idea what R1b, if any, the Mycenaeans carried. The only ydna we have for them so far is J2a.
Yes I know that but I think it is quite possible to exist some R1b-Z2103 in Myceneans since they had some steppe admixture. what is your opinion about the Bulgaria R-Z93 sample? Do you think he could be a Proto-Thracian?

xri34
16-03-19, 06:03
No I think Daco-Thracians at least at first were mostly R1a-Z93. I don't think they were influenced from Srubnaya, I think they came from Srubnaya.

I think it is suggested they came from Multi-Cordoned ware culture.

ToBeOrNotToBe
16-03-19, 06:13
I think it is suggested they came from Multi-Cordoned ware culture.

Interesting, that makes sense too. Perhaps that's associated with Daco-Thracians and Srubnaya proper the Cimmerians. In any case the Srubnaya link has to be strong. That actually makes a lot of sense, I can't see there being any better hypothesis.

xri34
16-03-19, 06:22
Interesting, that makes sense too. Perhaps that's associated with Daco-Thracians and Srubnaya proper the Cimmerians. In any case the Srubnaya link has to be strong. That actually makes a lot of sense, I can't see there being any better hypothesis.
The Crimmerians interacted with Thracians during the Iron Age. They were at steppes untill 900 BC. What we know is that Multi-Cordoned ware culture had many interactions with Srubna culture before the IE settlers leave the steppes for Balkans. So some of the settlers could have origin from Srubna culture (R-Z93).

Johane Derite
16-03-19, 13:06
1. We know that Illyrians were in Epirus.

2. We know that the name of Dodona, the cradle of the Greek religion is considered linguistically Illyrian rather than Greek.

3. We know that the Dorians seem to have been influenced a lot by Illyrians, and possibly outdated, but Coon noted that the Dorian parts of Greece have more
Dinaric traits. Albanians are the archetypal dinarics.

4. We now know that even from the most bad faith conservative linguists like Joachim Matzinger who made media appearances that "Albanian was opposite of Illyrian", that Albanian is a language "close to Illyrian and Messapian". This is a multi-faceted concession that entails very big details. Firstly, it means he is admitting implicitly that Messapians and Illyrians spoke a language like Albanian, hence not a Celtic-like, Italic-like,
or Germanic like language. He also didn't say Albanian is a language "close to Thracian" or "close to Dacian" which means Albanian is in the West Balkans. He also admits that the Albanian language can be used to decipher the few glosses and inscriptions we have from them. This is a big concession which has had no media coverage despite it being groundbreaking for european and world historiography. It is groundbreaking since now even if you want to argue Albanian doesn't descend from Illyrian, you are forced to concede that all the famous Illyrians like Constantine the Great (legalized Christianity), Justinian the Great, spoke a language close to Albanian. You have to concede that the Messapian civillization spoke a language close to Albanian. You have to concede that Pyrrhus was raised by people speaking a language close to Albanian. And this is significant.

5. Since we know Messapians spoke a language like Albanian, it's not surprising that we see a lot more Ev13 in Apulia. It's also not surprising that we see J2b2-L283 there and up along the coast into the Po Valley. There needs to be more higher resolution tests of these Albanian/Italian connections so that it can be appropriately dated, but there seems to be no will for this yet.

6. The J2b2-L283 found in a royal grave dated 3500 BC in Croatia in Mathieson Genomic History of Southeast Europe is high steppe relatively.

7. J2 split into J2a and J2b some 27,700 years ago. The difference is bigger than R1a and R1b. Stop saying J2 for South East europe without qualifying J2a or J2b as its as useful as saying R1, means nothing and both were present here. Almost all European J2b members belong to the L283 branch and share a common patrilineal ancestor who lived 6,000 years ago. 99% of them fall under the Z628 (aka Z597) clade, with a shared common ancestor who lived only 4,500 years ago.

8. Aspurg believes he has noted clades of EV13 and R1b that are possibly "Illyrian-Dorian".

Quoting him on Ev13: "some clades under Z5018 seem to have migrated more to the West pre-second Illyrian wave in LBA/EIA, and they show tendencies of spreading with Illyrian groups. Namely L241 and Y145455. Same might go for some CTS9320 clades, especially under Z16988. You spoke few times of Illyrian-Dorian connection. I believe this connection existed and I have found some clear genetic traces of it, and one of those seems L241. I think there are going to be Ancient Greek L241 clades (already there are L241+ there but without deeper tests) and PH2180 is Illyrian, same as some L241*"

Quoting him on R1b: "In a study about Y-DNA on Crete Lasithi Plateau had a high percentage of R1b, I got one of those haplotypes, and they are a clade of U152 that is distantly related (3000+ ybp) to their cousins in Herzegovina R-Y4354, of the Vlach Ugarak tribe. Vlach Zotovic clan has the same Y-DNA, and Zotovic is supposed to be derived from Albanian "Zot". Because this clade has no close relatives at all but has distant relatives in Greece, even Cyprus, it should be Illyrian/Dorian and this clade is another Illyrian-Dorian connection."

9. A polish linguist found Albanian loanwords in the folk vocabulary of Spartan Poet Alcman's work (7th Century BC). This means proto-Albanians and the Spartans (Dorians) must have interacted. Since at least 7th Century BC. Orel also noted that Greek and Albanian share many isoglosses not shared by any other Indo European language, and that this points to intense contact between Proto-Greek and Proto-Albanian in antiquity.

10. Plotting ancient sample on Gedmatch is valuable and important, but lets be weary that there isn't artefacts that skew it one way or the other. If the plot of these samples is correct, then it's interesting in that it suggests that the ancient Y-Dna lines that have remained consistent in Albanians since that time must have become autosomally skewed east by a lot of Slav women. It's not too feasible for me such a scenario, but if you guys want to insist that Slav women came to the balkans and mated with the males here so much then I won't protest too much.

Johane Derite
16-03-19, 13:19
1. We know that

For Point 5. see the "Reconstructing the genetic history of Italians: new insights from a male (Y-chromosome) perspective" where they found J2b2 and Ev13 in Apulia and up the coast into po valley.
For Point 9. see "The earliest Albanian loanwords in Greek" by Krzysztof Witczak, published by the Institute of Modern Greek Studies, and Orel, "Concise Historical Grammar of Albanian"


Source images for the points:

Point 4:

https://i.imgur.com/1H64MoF.jpg


Point 3:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dy9NrXFXgAAHtiW.jpg:large

Point 2:

https://i.imgur.com/iGWwiId.jpg

LABERIA
16-03-19, 13:51
According to Aris Poulianous, probably the most important Greek anthropologist:
- ".. Descent of Illyrio-Vlach tribe(s) until to Sfakia, Crete... "
http://rs1074.pbsrc.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Page108SmallSfakia_zpslderawoa.png?w=480&h=480&fit=clip

Gash
16-03-19, 18:20
Its obvious Albanians derive their ancestry from samples found in Bronze Age West Balkans and not East Balkans. The Bronze Age samples in West Balkans carried typical Albanian Y-DNA markers also. That this isn't ticking for people such as the OP and some here is amazing.

The sample found in Bulgaria isn't even a Bronze Age , its supposedly an Iron age. It is a totally different time frame. It is actually dated to be earlier than most of the Late Bronze Age samples despite an Iron Age. When you look at it's date and autosomal makeup, makes me think the sample is a Neolithic farmer. Its as South as Sardinians.

Its like comparing apples and oranges. Because it is autosomally closer means basically nothing when its obvious we derive a large chunk of our ancestry from Bronze Age West Balkans including Y-DNA markers. At the end of the day, except maybe for the Bronze Age Montenigrin, none of these samples are 100% identical to modern Balkan people or even Albanians.

But the Iron Age Bulgarian isn't autosomally closer even when compared to West Balkan Bronze Age samples. It is way too South shifted. And those samples from Dalmatia are way too North / West. Not that such a comparison would even matter when they are different time frames.


Its amazing how the OP ignores all this and uses that one single Iron Age sample from Bulgaria , which isn't even close to us, to determine that Ancient East Balkan samples were closer. Most Albanians aren't like South Italians.

When you take all samples together or just compare Bronze Age samples, you clearly see Ancient West Balkan samples are closer and even carry the same YDNA markers ... quite the opposite of what the OP is claiming.

Maciamo
17-03-19, 17:35
IMHO, I3313 and I4331 from BA Croatia could well be Proto-Italic.

mihaitzateo
23-03-19, 01:16
One Visigoth from Spain - I12031 - clusters with modern Serbs and has Balkan Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1a1b1a.

This is Balkan haplogroup E-V13:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-v13/about
Hello Polish mate,

Is there a thread with the DNA of that Visigoth on Eupedia?

markod
23-03-19, 01:30
The differentation has nothing to do with Slav women - try to take a look at the data at least. Present day inhabitants are shifted towards the Near East compared to those samples. The ancients here are between Iberians and North Italians (not close to Tuscans in the PCA). No group like that exists in the Balkans today.

mihaitzateo
08-04-19, 15:51
Bump this thread.