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Angela
05-03-19, 18:46
It's horrific, but it has happened in every situation where these societies have encountered more "modern" cultures, whether it's in the Americas, or in Africa when tribesmen or farmers encountered the remaining hunter-gatherers.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/04/the-killing-times-the-massacres-of-aboriginal-people-australia-must-confront?CMP=twt_gu

"The stories of “the killing times” are the ones we have heard in secret, or told in hushed tones. They are not the stories that appear in our history books yet they refuse to go away.The colonial journalist and barrister Richard Windeyer called it “the whispering in the bottom of our hearts”. The anthropologist William Stanner described a national “cult of forgetfulness”. A 1927 royal commission lamented our “conspiracy of silence”."

bicicleur
06-03-19, 09:30
It should be recognised that these things happened.
But at the same it should not be used to guilt western colonisers.
It is the rule of the strongest.
It happened everywhere and through all history and prehistory.
Last 6 centuries it were mainly the Europeans simply because they were more powerfull.

Farstar
06-03-19, 12:21
This is a really hard problem. We take the attitude of "it happened, and now things cannot be reversed, since it would be too costly". There is some kind of immorality in this position. I do not know what should be done, or how, but if we accept the status quo, we are accepting immorality has its place in society. How can we argue morally otherwise?

bicicleur
06-03-19, 13:01
This is a really hard problem. We take the attitude of "it happened, and now things cannot be reversed, since it would be too costly". There is some kind of immorality in this position. I do not know what should be done, or how, but if we accept the status quo, we are accepting immorality has its place in society. How can we argue morally otherwise?

there is no status quo
these things do not happen any more since WW II or before
at least not on a global scale and not any more by the same people
the attitude has changed completely
and that is probably something unique in history

it has to be recognised that these things happened
but they also have to be seen in historical perspective

Farstar
06-03-19, 13:19
there is no status quo
these things do not happen any more since WW II or before
at least not on a global scale and not any more by the same people
the attitude has changed completely
and that is probably something unique in history

it has to be recognised that these things happened
but they also have to be seen in historical perspective

This is the perspective of the winner, who do not want to recognise that these things happened.

And when there is no recognition, there is no repentance. A prototypical example is the American invasion by the Castilians. Castilians (in general) do not acknowledge they did something wrong, on the contrary. And this has effects (of many higher orders) today.

The same with Spain and Francoism. Francoism was never defeated, unlike Nazism in Germany. Only when there is the equivalent of the "Nuremberg trials" for the "bad ones", a country can reconcile with itself.

bicicleur
06-03-19, 17:45
have it your way
you react exactly as I told in my first post here

it is as if the Castillians of today would invade America again in the same way as the conquistadores did 500 years ago, if they had the opportunity
I think you have a very biassed mind toward certain people
you're prejudist and racist towards Castillians

Farstar
06-03-19, 18:15
have it your way
you react exactly as I told in my first post here

it is as if the Castillians of today would invade America again in the same way as the conquistadores did 500 years ago, if they had the opportunity
I think you have a very biassed mind toward certain people
you're prejudist and racist towards Castillians

I do not allow you to call me racist. You do not know who I am, or who are my family members (and yes, I have family members who are Castilians, so it would be crazy for me to be racist against them).

I think it is perfectly reasonable to argue that actions that caused deaths of millions of people are "bad". And even worse, when those culprits were never punished for that. And it is reasonable that one person looks more closely the cases that are closer to him (in my case, Castile, since I am Catalan) than to others (even though other cases can be interesting, too).

But in general, I find distressing that as a society we are so mean against petty crime and "small crime", but instead, we are perfectly comfortable with the really "big crime".

Sile
06-03-19, 18:59
do we really expect to seek any agreement from a society which has no living people who lived through any violence!.......no , we should not , ...........if people think yes, then lets go back as far as we can and maybe start from the bronze-age.
The "yes" people should only look as far back as only 100 years.

bicicleur
06-03-19, 19:02
I do not allow you to call me racist. You do not know who I am, or who are my family members (and yes, I have family members who are Castilians, so it would be crazy for me to be racist against them).

I think it is perfectly reasonable to argue that actions that caused deaths of millions of people are "bad". And even worse, when those culprits were never punished for that. And it is reasonable that one person looks more closely the cases that are closer to him (in my case, Castile, since I am Catalan) than to others (even though other cases can be interesting, too).

But in general, I find distressing that as a society we are so mean against petty crime and "small crime", but instead, we are perfectly comfortable with the really "big crime".

why do you associate Castilians of today with the American invasion?
explain me what is the effect today?
you formulated some strange sentences

and who here argues against you when you say these massacres were 'bad'? I think it was horrible

Farstar
06-03-19, 19:07
why do you associate Castilians of today with the American invasion?
explain me what is the effect today?
you formulated some strange sentences

and who here argues against you when you say these massacres were 'bad'? I think it was horrible

Because a part of the Castilian population (generally, the ones that supported the Franco dictatorship) are proud of that invasion and extermination of a big part of the original American population (through diseases, but not only).

I think that when one group of people have done something really bad (as the American invasion), that group of people should acknowledge that, and act. Germans are the prototypical example of that. When this is not done, the country is without honor at its core.

You still have not apologized for your accusation of racist to me.

Angela
06-03-19, 19:10
The "big" crimes never get punished. Who was punished for the millions upon millions of deaths under Lenin and Stalin, or under Hitler for that matter? The Nuremberg trials were a disgrace. Even some of the leading Nazis got out of prison after a few years. In my area we've spent decades trying to extradite the Nazis responsible for massacres in our area. They're dying of old age fat and happy in Germany.

It's not acceptable in my view to say well, they thought it was fine in that era, or that's what they were taught. Some slave owner in Louisiana routinely whipping his slaves, when he wasn't impregnating them, is evil. Not all morality is situationally based, imo. That should have outraged people in the south more than it did.

Before Bicicleur says it, enslaving millions of Gauls and Germans was wrong too, even if all the empires of the time did it. :)

Clearly, I don't believe in relativist morality. Some things should outrage us all as human beings.

Farstar
06-03-19, 19:15
The "big" crimes never get punished. Who was punished for the millions upon millions of deaths under Lenin and Stalin, or under Hitler for that matter? The Nuremberg trials were a disgrace. Even some of the leading Nazis got out of prison after a few years. In my area we've spent decades trying to extradite the Nazis responsible for massacres in our area. They're dying of old age fat and happy in Germany.

It's not acceptable in my view to say well, they thought it was fine in that era, or that's what they were taught. Some slave owner in Louisiana routinely whipping his slaves, when he wasn't impregnating them, is evil. Not all morality is situationally based, imo. That should have outraged people in the south more than it did.

Before Bicicleur says it, enslaving millions of Gauls and Germans was wrong too, even if all the empires of the time did it. :)

Clearly, I don't believe in relativist morality. Some things should outrage us all as human beings.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

And if the crimes happened in the past, and nobody was punished, I believe that we have the duty to actively remember that, and act accordingly.

Sile
06-03-19, 19:47
I wholeheartedly agree with this.

And if the crimes happened in the past, and nobody was punished, I believe that we have the duty to actively remember that, and act accordingly.

And what is your "act accordingly"?

compensation?, a sorry ?, .................one should not take responsibility for ones own ancestors glories or miseries

Farstar
06-03-19, 19:54
And what is your "act accordingly"?

compensation?, a sorry ?, .................one should not take responsibility for ones own ancestors glories or miseries

Every person has to find his/her way. At least, a strong personal commitment not to do (or allow others to do) the same (or similar) now.

bicicleur
07-03-19, 01:13
Because a part of the Castilian population (generally, the ones that supported the Franco dictatorship) are proud of that invasion and extermination of a big part of the original American population (through diseases, but not only).

I think that when one group of people have done something really bad (as the American invasion), that group of people should acknowledge that, and act. Germans are the prototypical example of that. When this is not done, the country is without honor at its core.

You still have not apologized for your accusation of racist to me.

now you are talking about a part of the Castillians
in the former you were talking about the Castillians in general
that kind of generalisations I don't like

I said the facts should be recognised and you say that is the perspective of the winner
I don't get it
I repeat, you're formulating strange sentences

Farstar
07-03-19, 07:28
now you are talking about a part of the Castillians
in the former you were talking about the Castillians in general
that kind of generalisations I don't like

I said the facts should be recognised and you say that is the perspective of the winner
I don't get it
I repeat, you're formulating strange sentences

Who is tainted is the nation of Castile. Of course, it is never the case that all people within a nation commit crimes. For example, an overwhelming majority of Germans did not kill any Jew. But despite being a minority doing that, the guilt is on the overall Germany, since it is clear that by inaction, etc. Germany as a nation did that, not only the small minority of Nazi leaders.

In the same way, Castile as a nation is responsible of that. Of course, most Castilians then did nothing. And most Castilians today even do not know what it is what we are talking about. But since never Castilians as a whole repented from those actions, there is responsibility on the Castile nation. "Badness" was not expurged, so it remained.

And you still have not apologized.

bicicleur
07-03-19, 09:22
Who is tainted is the nation of Castile. Of course, it is never the case that all people within a nation commit crimes. For example, an overwhelming majority of Germans did not kill any Jew. But despite being a minority doing that, the guilt is on the overall Germany, since it is clear that by inaction, etc. Germany as a nation did that, not only the small minority of Nazi leaders.

In the same way, Castile as a nation is responsible of that. Of course, most Castilians then did nothing. And most Castilians today even do not know what it is what we are talking about. But since never Castilians as a whole repented from those actions, there is responsibility on the Castile nation. "Badness" was not expurged, so it remained.

And you still have not apologized.

if you intended to accuse all Castilians in general, then that is racism to me
if you didn't intend it, then I apologize
the wording in your earleir post was not very happy

I agree that you must make a difference between a nation and its inhabitants, especially if it is a totalitarian one as was Castille at the time.
I can assure you that my country has suffered a lot under the duke of Alba, governor of your beloved king Filipe II.
But that is history, long ago, no one ever speaks or thinks about that. Should we?
In the end you can accuse any one in the world for crimes his/her supposed ancestors would have commited.

Farstar
07-03-19, 12:13
if you intended to accuse all Castilians in general, then that is racism to me
if you didn't intend it, then I apologize
the wording in your earleir post was not very happy

I agree that you must make a difference between a nation and its inhabitants, especially if it is a totalitarian one as was Castille at the time.
I can assure you that my country has suffered a lot under the duke of Alba, governor of your beloved king Filipe II.
But that is history, long ago, no one ever speaks or thinks about that. Should we?
In the end you can accuse any one in the world for crimes his/her supposed ancestors would have commited.

For sure we should speak about that. Otherwise, the bad ones will speak about that.

For example, yesterday Javier Ortega Smith, a high representative of Vox, a far-right Spanish political party (in favour of the Franco dictatorship, male chauvinism, racism, etc) spoke in favour of military actions by Castile long time ago, including Charles V ... under which the Low Countries suffered a lot, via the duke of Alba (Felipe II was his son).

http://videos.elmundo.es/v/0_cj82fwq4-vox-sin-las-navas-de-tolosa-sin-la-batalla-de-lepanto-y-sin-carlos-v-las-senoras-vestirian-el-burka?count=0

So, if we do not speak about the evil of all this, and we remain silent, the bad ones will take over it. This is a prototypical example of the "broken window in a building effect".

By the way, Catalonia has no king.

Farstar
07-03-19, 13:14
Serendipity:

In the Conference of Vox's Ortega Smith at the European Parliament, a Flemish NVA MP told him that denying that Catalonia is a nation is like denying the light of the sun.

Then, Ortega Smith made a strong accusation (with a strong tone of voice) towards this MP, telling him to get his money from Catalan President Puigdemont (suggesting the MP is paid by Puigdemont, instead of just saying what he believes) and then, he insulted Puigdemont (traitor, etc.).

Most importantly, when the conference ended, cameras were able to catch a private conversation with somebody else, and Ortega Smith tells him: "Entre tú y yo le pegamos" ("between you and me, we hit him"). It seems clear they are talking either about the NVA MP, or about Puigdemont. Whoever it is, this shows the violent characteristics of this political movement.

In my opinion, history does not repeat, but it rhymes.

https://twitter.com/pavilacas1/status/1103546662797094912

exceededminimumso..
07-03-19, 15:09
The "big" crimes never get punished. Who was punished for the millions upon millions of deaths under Lenin and Stalin, or under Hitler for that matter?

https://twitter.com/tvrain/status/1102958278777102336

Farstar
07-03-19, 15:20
https://twitter.com/tvrain/status/1102958278777102336

This is an example of what happens if the bad ones are not punished: the supporters of the bad ones become brave enough, such that when somebody despises the bad ones, the supporters of the bad ones treat the guy with violence, as if the guy were the one deserving violence.

The bad guys have to be defeated, punished and publicly humiliated. Otherwise, they will return with a vengeance.

Angela
07-03-19, 19:39
https://twitter.com/tvrain/status/1102958278777102336

If you can get a hold of a film called "The Death of Stalin", I'd recommend it.

At first I was a bit put off by it, since it's a satirical, black comedy take on them, and there's nothing humorous about the killing of millions upon millions of people.

On the other hand, sometimes humor is a very potent weapon in de-mystifing evil.

bicicleur
07-03-19, 20:44
This is an example of what happens if the bad ones are not punished: the supporters of the bad ones become brave enough, such that when somebody despises the bad ones, the supporters of the bad ones treat the guy with violence, as if the guy were the one deserving violence.

The bad guys have to be defeated, punished and publicly humiliated. Otherwise, they will return with a vengeance.

maybe, but Stalin didn't need the example of a bad one not punished,
neither did the ISIS supporters

the biggest thread is just plain stupid people who are so easy to mislead

Angela
07-03-19, 21:25
If you can get a hold of a film called "The Death of Stalin", I'd recommend it.

At first I was a bit put off by it, since it's a satirical, black comedy take on them, and there's nothing humorous about the killing of millions upon millions of people.

On the other hand, sometimes humor is a very potent weapon in de-mystifing evil.

There are clips on youtube:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPpXFnHoC-0

One particularly good scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUu3cMyqvAU

Buscemi plays Krushchev. :)

All you have to know is that it's been banned in Russia.