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View Full Version : Clasification and taxonomy of a 'type'



Yetos
14-03-19, 21:43
The first one is well known musician singer

http://rockandrollgarage.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Hear-Ronnie-James-Dios-isolated-vocals-on-Dont-Talk-To-Strangers.jpg



The second one is also famous quitar player.

https://metalzone.gr/sites/default/files/styles/metalzone_780_780/public/articles_media/maxresdefault_14.jpg?itok=HHc48YMX


https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/0*pixobsm5LdtCahPx.jpg






Does this look has to do with possible Mycenean look?
Or it is pre IE Europe?

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-701102cf294aa02b899667e71389d137



in case you are interested,

the first is R J Dio
The second is Gus G

Angela
14-03-19, 22:25
The first one is well known musician singer

http://rockandrollgarage.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Hear-Ronnie-James-Dios-isolated-vocals-on-Dont-Talk-To-Strangers.jpg



The second one is also famous quitar player.

https://metalzone.gr/sites/default/files/styles/metalzone_780_780/public/articles_media/maxresdefault_14.jpg?itok=HHc48YMX


https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/0*pixobsm5LdtCahPx.jpg






Does this look has to do with possible Mycenean look?
Or it is pre IE Europe?

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-701102cf294aa02b899667e71389d137



in case you are interested,

the first is R J Dio
The second is Gus G

I don't think either of them is as "coarse" featured as the Mycenaean. No people like the latter any longer exist in either Europe or West Asia, so I don't think we'll find many people who look like that.

Maybe we'd get closer somewhere in the Caucasus, like Azerbaijanis (the two men to the left as you look at the picture)? I'm sure there was some variation in them too, as in other peoples.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-fc4bd225001d28207dad28a316315127-c

Or maybe some Circassians are closer?
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/BP1XW2/israel-lower-galilee-circassian-man-in-traditional-clothing-at-kfar-BP1XW2.jpg

ToBeOrNotToBe
14-03-19, 22:44
I don't think either of them is as "coarse" featured as the Mycenaean. No people like the latter any longer exist in either Europe or West Asia, so I don't think we'll find many people who look like that.

Maybe we'd get closer somewhere in the Caucasus, like Azerbaijanis (the two men to the left as you look at the picture)? I'm sure there was some variation in them too, as in other peoples.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-fc4bd225001d28207dad28a316315127-c

Circassians are a better proximate by far - all those North Caucasian tribes are actually really good looking and fit the Greek ideal very well, even down to pigmentation (particularly Ossetians)

Angela
14-03-19, 23:12
Maybe the women, not necessarily the men, as my example shows.

Plus, how could you possibly think the Mycenaean lord even approaches the "Greek ideal"? He has completely discordant, inharmonious features.

Apollo at the Capitolini Museum

https://www.mygodpictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Face-Statue-Of-Lord-Apollo.jpg

Yetos
15-03-19, 02:35
bellow is a pic of Greek actress,

http://www.ishow.gr/Thumbnail.ashx?url=files/archive/2013/12/11/5AAFE89A-A6E6-41D0-9E68-EABA923323A6.jpg&x1=223&y1=64&x2=384&y2=306&width=500


What I really wonder is, if that look existed before the Dorians,
if it is more Neolithic, or more palaiolithic,

considering black hair seems more palaiolithic to me than Neolithic.

Angela R J Dio is of Italian origin. (Padavona)

maybe I am pushing far,

but lets notice this,

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bg9DXaDXWow/maxresdefault.jpg


the most noticed difference with Griffin warrior is just the upper leap.

http://www.ekirikas.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/IMG_2972-402x300.jpg


while comparing with Otzi the distance is FAR

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_JyfG1ky98U/TWxme6eNjrI/AAAAAAAANjI/qNTNurZq4TY/s1600/otzi+face.jpg



considering for example my chosen pics, Sofia Loren or Maria Papalamproy
it is obvious they closer to Griifin warrior, than to Iceman Otzi

Yes I did a cherrypick cause I am interesting in a taxonomy of this type
so I had to choose simmilar looking,
it is not a taxonomy of a mass or population,

Angela
15-03-19, 03:06
bellow is a pic of Greek actress,

http://www.ishow.gr/Thumbnail.ashx?url=files/archive/2013/12/11/5AAFE89A-A6E6-41D0-9E68-EABA923323A6.jpg&x1=223&y1=64&x2=384&y2=306&width=500


What I really wonder is, if that look existed before the Dorians,
if it is more Neolithic, or more palaiolithic,

considering black hair seems more palaiolithic to me than Neolithic.

Angela R J Dio is of Italian origin. (Padavona)

We were just discussing that the first Iron Age Greek autosomal sample plots near Mycenaeans. So, if, when we get more samples, the same picture unfolds, the Dorians may not have been very different.

I think that's a more Anatolian Neolithic/Iran Neolithic like phenotype. The Paleolithic/Mesolithic phenotype is, from what I can tell, broad faced, especially across the cheekbones, shorter faced, heavy browed, blunt nosed or even with a flat or up turned nose.

With all the usual caveats about the reliability or lack thereof of reconstructions...

Paleolithic carving in ivory:
https://i.imgur.com/JHj1iQY.jpg

Plastered Neolithic skull from Jericho:
https://classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/435/flashcards/2212435/png/neolithic_plastered_skull-1411E0CC3B26E18EB7B.png

Neolithic girl from Greece:
https://greekcitytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Screen-Shot-2018-01-21-at-6.03.05-pm.png

Melina Kanadarides, a Greek American actress, is the same type, I think. Both could just as well be Italian, imo.

http://www.media4.hw-static.com/wp-content/uploads/6863512.jpg

Yetos
15-03-19, 10:17
So Grffin warrior face could be the phainotype of the Neolithic people of Europe,

the Anatoilan/Iran irrigation farmers?

Angela
15-03-19, 21:04
So Grffin warrior face could be the phainotype of the Neolithic people of Europe,

the Anatoilan/Iran irrigation farmers?

Not in my opinion. He doesn't look all that similar to me to the plastered head from Jericho, for example, or the Neolithic woman from Greece. It seems to me he has quite a bit of that Iran Neo/Caucasus type look from his minority ancestry.

As for Sophia Loren, imo she doesn't bear much resemblance at all to the Griffin warrior. Her face is much shorter and broader, with much more pronounced cheekbones, all rather more hunter-gatherer if I had to label it. Or perhaps it came from somewhere to the east. She looks a lot like her mother, who won a Greta Garbo look alike contest.

It's difficult to use Italians for these types of analyses, because we have so much variation. If I had to make a general statement, however, I'd say many Italians have more gracile, refined features than she does, with longer faces.

It does show up from time to time, though, even to the green eyes with darker complexion:

Giusy Buscemi, from Sicily, who was a Miss Italia
http://www.tempieterre.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Giusy-Buscemi-Miss-Italia-2012.jpg


More numerous perhaps are the gracile meds, closer to the original EEF?

Gina Lollobrigida who was more of a type like Monica Belluci
http://nasvete.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Gina-Lollobrigida-17.jpg


Pier Angeli
Here she is, young and innocent and stripped of all make-up
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ef/a6/2e/efa62ec04e4a89272c62ddddbf17e2a2.jpg

Hollywood usually made her up to look more "exotic".
https://cinemavintage.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/pier-angeli-red-modified.jpg


Or the longer and stronger featured look you sometimes find in "Central" to North Central Italy, which might owe a bit to the same influence that shows up in the Mycenaean lord.

Alice Sabatini
http://images2.gazzettaobjects.it/methode_image/2015/09/21/Varie/Foto%20Gallery%20-%20Trattate/[email protected]_mediagallery-page.jpg


This shows the range I think. It's from the year when Alice Sabatini won. Most have pronounced Gracile Med influence, but it's tempered by other influences depending on the region, with some having a bit more "northern" influence, some more West Asian, and many slightly stronger bone structure.

https://i.imgur.com/ZDcCKE1.jpg

Yetos
15-03-19, 21:31
I tried to use Greeks and Italians,
I can also use Cypriots, and Turks,

the only I find extreme in that look of griffin warrior is the upper leap,
it is not a rare look, maybe not a major look, but I could estimated more than 10-15% of populations from Iberia to minor Asia.

He is a Greek-Cypriot. ok little bit wider nose.

https://www.lifo.gr/uploads/image/1056963/9386.jpg

Angela
15-03-19, 21:38
Yetos, I don't know what to tell you. This man has a much, much broader face than the Mycenaean warrior. I don't think they look alike at all.

ToBeOrNotToBe
16-03-19, 04:25
We were just discussing that the first Iron Age Greek autosomal sample plots near Mycenaeans. So, if, when we get more samples, the same picture unfolds, the Dorians may not have been very different.

I think that's a more Anatolian Neolithic/Iran Neolithic like phenotype. The Paleolithic/Mesolithic phenotype is, from what I can tell, broad faced, especially across the cheekbones, shorter faced, heavy browed, blunt nosed or even with a flat or up turned nose.

With all the usual caveats about the reliability or lack thereof of reconstructions...

Paleolithic carving in ivory:
https://i.imgur.com/JHj1iQY.jpg

Plastered Neolithic skull from Jericho:
https://classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/435/flashcards/2212435/png/neolithic_plastered_skull-1411E0CC3B26E18EB7B.png

Neolithic girl from Greece:
https://greekcitytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Screen-Shot-2018-01-21-at-6.03.05-pm.png

Melina Kanadarides, a Greek American actress, is the same type, I think. Both could just as well be Italian, imo.

http://www.media4.hw-static.com/wp-content/uploads/6863512.jpg

That ivory carving is fake I'm pretty sure, I mean look how advanced that is for the Paleolithic it should be a giveaway. Even compared to Mesolithic and Neolithic sculptures it's insanely precise.

Also there's not much relevance to this but Melina fits really well as Ashkenazi too, just like that Italian chef you posted a while back - that's how I imagine the Minoans/Pelasgians and even if I have little evidence outside of basic depictions I'm pretty confident in it as no other type fits the bill (a light-skinned Mediterranean with Middle Eastern influence seen in the relatively large size of the eyes and height of the nose). I'm not at all saying Ashkenazim all look like that even though I think a higher % of Ashkenazim fit that type than any other major ethnic group, as "unfortunately" there's also a high percentage of Harvey Weinstein-looking people too.

Sometimes an Arabid influence is even seen amongst Jews:

https://imgur.com/IX7ouYy.png

https://imgix.ranker.com/user_node_img/50040/1000796976/original/young-barbra-streisand-with-short-hair-closeup-side-profile-shot-photo-u1?w=650&q=50&fm=pjpg&fit=crop&crop=faces

From the main types Ashkenazim belong to, you'd expect the genetics to be something like 1/3 Arab + 2/3 Armenian (which can be represented by Assyrian), then 1/2 Assyrian + 1/2 Spaniard. I don't know if an Assyrian-Spanish combination fits Ashkenazim well, but this is just a thought experiment as that's obviously not the way things actually happened.

Angela
16-03-19, 05:43
The women of the Minoan Civilization:

This one has a Streisand like nose, which isn't Arabic at all imo...
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/0b/53/d7/0b53d77f7bd82ba386a1295a3ee41b90.jpg


https://i.pinimg.com/736x/51/98/f1/5198f15843415d17ab7f0abac3622141--thera-minoan.jpg



This particularly beautiful one is nicknamed "La Parisienne".

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3287/2669630579_5b11d7d41e_z.jpg


Another gorgeous one.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/4c/45/62/4c45620c7343ffb3c7161dbbd2e0411b--ancient-greece-ancient-art.jpg
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&id=58C1FBB150550270B28AAB4BF8F9173BD56A45BD&thid=OIP.9vGZZULOrWsZJq8C8qzotwHaG9&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2F736x%2F4c%2F 45%2F62%2F4c45620c7343ffb3c7161dbbd2e0411b--ancient-greece-ancient-art.jpg&exph=691&expw=735&q=ancient+women+of+Crete&selectedindex=94&ajaxhist=0&vt=0&eim=0,6

They look very gracile Med to me.

Yetos
19-03-19, 02:19
Angela that is from 1912,

all cretans.

https://i0.wp.com/www.athleticradio.gr/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/%CE%9A%CF%81%CE%B7%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%B7-%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%B9%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%86%CF%85%C E%BB%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B7.jpg


Cretans have 2 major phainotypes.

in West are more tall, thin, long neck.
in East are bit shorter, solid/thick, rounder face.

But I am not speaking about Cretans and Minoans, which although is almost same genetically,
but about Myceneans,