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Rizla
16-03-19, 14:47
Ladies and gentlemen

We have a new I1 discovered Spain. 13.000 years old. If this is true, it prooves that I1 was in refugium in Spain during the LGM, and repopulated Europe next to I2. I haven't had time to read the article properly, but here's the relevant info.

"Balma Guilanya` is a rock shelter located in Northeastern Iberia, at 1,150 m.a.s.l. (meters above sea level) in the Serra de Busa Pre-Pyrenean range (Naves, Lleida). After an initial test pit where Late Upper Paleolithic remains were recovered [ 38], the site was excavated between 2001 to 2008 [39, 40]. Two main chrono-cultural phases were defined. The oldest dates back to the Late UpperPaleolithic (15,000–11,000 years cal BP) and the youngest corresponds to the Early Mesolithic (11,000 – 9,500 years cal BP). The two chrono-cultural units are separated by a big fallen boulder which sealed the Late Upper Paleolithic levels [41].
A set of human skeletal remains were found under this big stone block without any evidence of funerary structures. Direct radiocarbon dates from two human remains (one human tooth and one human bone fragment) recovered from the same context dated to 13,380–12,660 years cal BP (Ua-34297) and 12,830–10,990 years cal BP (Ua- 34298) [42].
These dates fall inside the Bølling/Allerød interstadial and Younger Dryas stadial, which correspond to the Late Glacial. The Minimum Number of Individuals (MNI) was estimated to be three based on dental morphology: two adults and one immature individual [43].
The stable carbon and nitrogen isotope analyses performed on human bone collagen suggested a diet based on terrestrial herbivores, without any evidence ofmarine or freshwater resources [42]. The material cultural artifacts recovered from the same level as the human remains have been attributed to the Azilian techno-complex [41]. Balma Guilanya` shows clear technical parallels with the near Azilian site Balma Marguineda [44]. However, in general the Azilian is considered to be more common in Vasco-Cantabrian northern Iberia and on the other side of the Pyrenees [45]. Here, we report the genome-wide data from two individuals from this site: BAL0051, adult individual. BAL003, adult individual"

and

"BAL0051 could be assigned to haplogroup I1, while BAL003 carries the C1a1a haplogroup."

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0960-9822%2819%2930145-9

markod
17-03-19, 07:02
This is of course where it was expected to be, since the Mesolithic complexes of northern France, northern Germany and Scandinavia were established by Azilian migrants. Cool to see it confirmed.

I1a3_Young
17-03-19, 08:13
The link wont load for me, and it says "could" be I1. That's a leap. Someone please post their specific data.

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Deadly77
18-03-19, 11:38
I've analyzed the BAM file (it's available at European Nucleotide Archive) for BAL051, looking at the >300 SNPs SNPs that are in the big I1 block before I1 splits into subclades. BAL051 has reads for 33 of these SNPs, so there is a lot of no calls where the position has no reading. Some of that is going to be down to the methodology of the test (the 1240K SNP Capture) and some of it may be due to the age of the sample. However, those 33 SNPs have more read SNPs in BAL051 individually than the four RISE samples from Allentoft 2015 collectively.

BAL051 Derived calls for 13 SNPs: Z2699/FGC2430 (2C), Z2751/L841/YSC0000257, Z2885, Z2887, CTS7751/Z2813, Z2812/CTS7652, Z2860, L124/S64, CTS4532/Z2777, Z2724/V1771 (2G), FGC2441 (2G), CTS10140/Z2837.
BAL051 Ancestral calls for 20 SNPs: Z2886, Z2679/CTS136, Z2727, Z2850, Y1962 (4T), P40, Z2747, FGC2422/Z2715, CTS3506/Z2765, FGC33327, CTS11534/Z2871, Y1863/S107/FGC2426, L848/Z2877 /YSC0000299 (2C), FGC2433, Y1950, FGC2427/Z2713, Y1932/S2007, Z2870/CTS11526, S22865/Z2845, Z2806/CTS6765.
All above SNPs one read unless otherwise noted.

I'd say BAL051 is pre-I1 rather than fully I1.

mwauthy
18-03-19, 15:41
I've analyzed the BAM file (it's available at European Nucleotide Archive) for BAL051, looking at the >300 SNPs SNPs that are in the big I1 block before I1 splits into subclades. BAL051 has reads for 33 of these SNPs, so there is a lot of no calls where the position has no reading. Some of that is going to be down to the methodology of the test (the 1240K SNP Capture) and some of it may be due to the age of the sample. However, those 33 SNPs have more read SNPs in BAL051 individually than the four RISE samples from Allentoft 2015 collectively.

BAL051 Derived calls for 13 SNPs: Z2699/FGC2430 (2C), Z2751/L841/YSC0000257, Z2885, Z2887, CTS7751/Z2813, Z2812/CTS7652, Z2860, L124/S64, CTS4532/Z2777, Z2724/V1771 (2G), FGC2441 (2G), CTS10140/Z2837.
BAL051 Ancestral calls for 20 SNPs: Z2886, Z2679/CTS136, Z2727, Z2850, Y1962 (4T), P40, Z2747, FGC2422/Z2715, CTS3506/Z2765, FGC33327, CTS11534/Z2871, Y1863/S107/FGC2426, L848/Z2877 /YSC0000299 (2C), FGC2433, Y1950, FGC2427/Z2713, Y1932/S2007, Z2870/CTS11526, S22865/Z2845, Z2806/CTS6765.
All above SNPs one read unless otherwise noted.

I'd say BAL051 is pre-I1 rather than fully I1.

I agree! If a sample has ancestral alleles for any of the 311 SNPs then it can’t be considered fully I1. 20 ancestral values seems to me to be pretty conclusive for not being I1 as we know it today. Most likely this individual is just one of the many multitudes of lineages that died off over that greater than 20,000 year time frame between the split between I1 and I2 and the TMRCA for I1 as we know it today. I’m not sure what to call it but perhaps
I<BAL0051<I1. Calling the sample I1 is bad science in my opinion.

bicicleur
18-03-19, 15:57
I've analyzed the BAM file (it's available at European Nucleotide Archive) for BAL051, looking at the >300 SNPs SNPs that are in the big I1 block before I1 splits into subclades. BAL051 has reads for 33 of these SNPs, so there is a lot of no calls where the position has no reading. Some of that is going to be down to the methodology of the test (the 1240K SNP Capture) and some of it may be due to the age of the sample. However, those 33 SNPs have more read SNPs in BAL051 individually than the four RISE samples from Allentoft 2015 collectively.

BAL051 Derived calls for 13 SNPs: Z2699/FGC2430 (2C), Z2751/L841/YSC0000257, Z2885, Z2887, CTS7751/Z2813, Z2812/CTS7652, Z2860, L124/S64, CTS4532/Z2777, Z2724/V1771 (2G), FGC2441 (2G), CTS10140/Z2837.
BAL051 Ancestral calls for 20 SNPs: Z2886, Z2679/CTS136, Z2727, Z2850, Y1962 (4T), P40, Z2747, FGC2422/Z2715, CTS3506/Z2765, FGC33327, CTS11534/Z2871, Y1863/S107/FGC2426, L848/Z2877 /YSC0000299 (2C), FGC2433, Y1950, FGC2427/Z2713, Y1932/S2007, Z2870/CTS11526, S22865/Z2845, Z2806/CTS6765.
All above SNPs one read unless otherwise noted.

I'd say BAL051 is pre-I1 rather than fully I1.

13+, 20-

that would mean he split from the main I1 branch approx 18.5 ka

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I1/

and BAL051 itself is 13,4-11 ka calBP

I1a3_Young
18-03-19, 18:28
Deadly77 - thank you!

Bicicleur - exactly right. It's not possible to have ancient I1 because by definition, I1 is the man who lived about 4600 YBP. All I1 that we find before that man will be pre-I1.

This is a great data point though because with this and SF11, we have a guarantee about when certain mutations within the I1 block were in existence. BAB5 from Hungary gave us only one SNP but it was M253. We need to retest BAB5!!!

If I get time I'll compare the SF 11 positive and negative calls to this sample.

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I1a3_Young
18-03-19, 22:33
Deadly77 - thank you!

Bicicleur - exactly right. It's not possible to have ancient I1 because by definition, I1 is the man who lived about 4600 YBP. All I1 that we find before that man will be pre-I1.

This is a great data point though because with this and SF11, we have a guarantee about when certain mutations within the I1 block were in existence. BAB5 from Hungary gave us only one SNP but it was M253. We need to retest BAB5!!!

If I get time I'll compare the SF 11 positive and negative calls to this sample.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)None of the available calls for BAL051 and SF11 are at the same locations

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Deadly77
19-03-19, 02:21
[QUOTE=I1a3_Young;570306]None of the available calls for BAL051 and SF11 are at the same locations

Sent from my SM-G935V/QUOTE]

There is a single position among the I1 SNPs which has reads in both BAL051 and SF11 BAM files:

FGC2433 (hg19 ChrY:13669371): BAL051 ancestral (1G), SF11 derived (1A).

However, both are one-read SNPs, meaning I wouldn't bet my house on this. But with these ancient DNA samples, we take what we can get.

SF11 is ancestral for 10 of the I1 SNPs and derived for 9 of the I1 SNPs when I reviewed the BAM file.

I1a3_Young
19-03-19, 15:10
[QUOTE=I1a3_Young;570306]None of the available calls for BAL051 and SF11 are at the same locations

Sent from my SM-G935V/QUOTE]

There is a single position among the I1 SNPs which has reads in both BAL051 and SF11 BAM files:

FGC2433 (hg19 ChrY:13669371): BAL051 ancestral (1G), SF11 derived (1A).

However, both are one-read SNPs, meaning I wouldn't bet my house on this. But with these ancient DNA samples, we take what we can get.

SF11 is ancestral for 10 of the I1 SNPs and derived for 9 of the I1 SNPs when I reviewed the BAM file.Great news, you picked up 2 derived I was unaware of. Can you list the 9 SNPs?

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Deadly77
19-03-19, 15:39
[QUOTE=I1a3_Young;570385][QUOTE=Deadly77;570334]Great news, you picked up 2 derived I was unaware of. Can you list the 9 SNPs?

Sent from my SM-G935V /QUOTE]

It may be that the SNPs I looked at weren't on the phylogenetic tree at the time the previous analysis was conducted. I'm using the current YFull tree as reference.

Sure - here's the calls from SF11 when I analyzed the BAM file earlier this year. Copied from my post on Anthrogenica - I post my analysis of ancient I1 samples on there. While I don't consider SF11 or BAL051 to be I1, they are interesting to I1 as pre-I1, so I look at these too.

SF11 is derived for Z2726(1G), Z2792 (1C), Z2802/CTS6221 (1T), Z2882/YSC0000301 (1C), FGC2433 (1A), Z2805/CTS6629 (1A), CTS1748/Z2749 (1G), Z2683 (1T), Z2731 (1A). SF11 is ancestral for Y1831/FGC2468 (1T), Z2714/FGC2425 (1T), CTS3268/Z7262 (1T), L121/S62 (1A), Z2825/CTS9258 (2G), Z2825/CTS9258 (1C), CTS9845 (1A), Z2804/CTS6547 (2C), Z2690 (1G), FGC7871/Y1906 (1G).