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Cato
22-03-19, 08:32
Recent ancient DNA studies of western Eurasia have revealed a dynamic history of admixture, with evidence for major migrations during the Neolithic and Bronze Age. The population of the Mediterranean island of Sardinia has been notable in these studies -- Neolithic individuals from mainland Europe cluster more closely with Sardinian individuals than with all other present-day Europeans. The current model to explain this result is that Sardinia received an initial influx of Neolithic ancestry and then remained relatively isolated from expansions in the later Neolithic and Bronze Age that took place in continental Europe. To test this model, we generated genome-wide capture data (approximately 1.2 million variants) for 43 ancient Sardinian individuals spanning the Neolithic through the Bronze Age, including individuals from Sardinia's Nuragic culture, which is known for the construction of numerous large stone towers throughout the island. We analyze these new samples in the context of previously generated genome-wide ancient DNA data from 972 ancient individuals across western Eurasia and whole-genome sequence data from approximately 1,500 modern individuals from Sardinia. The ancient Sardinian individuals show a strong affinity to western Mediterranean Neolithic populations and we infer a high degree of genetic continuity on the island from the Neolithic (around fifth millennium BCE) through the Nuragic period (second millennium BCE). In particular, during the Bronze Age in Sardinia, we do not find significant levels of the "Steppe" ancestry that was spreading in many other parts of Europe at that time. We also characterize subsequent genetic influx between the Nuragic period and the present. We detect novel, modest signals of admixture between 1,000 BCE and present-day, from ancestry sources in the eastern and northern Mediterranean. Within Sardinia, we confirm that populations from the more geographically isolated mountainous provinces have experienced elevated levels of genetic drift and that northern and southwestern regions of the island received more gene flow from outside Sardinia. Overall, our genetic analysis sheds new light on the origin of Neolithic settlement on Sardinia, reinforces models of genetic continuity on the island, and provides enhanced power to detect post-Bronze-Age gene flow. Together, these findings offer a refined demographic model for future medical genetic studies in Sardinia.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/583104v1

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Cato
22-03-19, 08:51
modern Sardinians have really a lot of Roman/Italian admixture ("Northern Mediterranean"), it's a surprise for me

In any case very few steppe admixture circa 1-3% began to appear in the EBA (page 11) as suggested by archaeology (Bell Beaker, Polada-like Bonnanaro culture)

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Pygmalion
22-03-19, 10:32
There's a Punic sample from Tharros coming from a new study that seems to be an indigenous Sardinian:


https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/54799003_2297351023638162_928959610323206144_n.png ?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ht=scontent-mxp1-1.xx&oh=14870616322d220c959ff70d6a173aa8&oe=5D101B0A


http://amsdottorato.unibo.it/8577/?fbclid=IwAR3ZJ9PKuaNeoUx-0QtbBpZwHqMcxLRIjOj4D9tVz-9hLRuabLyM6i8SN98

Cato
22-03-19, 11:00
Percentage of Nuragic, Northern and Eastern admixture10817

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Cato
22-03-19, 14:59
what i find strange is the almost total lack of steppe in the EBA and Nuragic samples..even Sicilian Beaker have it! Maybe Beakers that reached Sardinia were heavily admixed with EEF?

Apparently Lazio was still EEF in the EBA too

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Angela
22-03-19, 16:05
Thanks. I'll read it with interest. I see it's Haak and Krause again.

I want to compare their analysis of Nuragic Sardinians with that of the Reich group.

No Iron Age sample or Late Antiquity samples as with the Reich paper?

Angela
22-03-19, 18:01
First off, it's a much better organized and written paper than the one from the Reich Lab by Fernandes. Second, it pays much better attention to the details of the substructure in Sardinia.

It's true that they don't have an Iron Age sample or four Late Antiquity samples, like the Reich Lab has, but I think the Reich Lab may be inferring too much from those samples in terms of the effect on modern Sardinian populations. I'm thinking particularly of the fact that this paper finds more "Levantine" in the southwest where we find evidence of Phoenician settlement, and more "northern" ancestry including Tuscan ancestry, in Olbia in the northeast and the large city of Sassari, while there is the least change in Ogliastra.

bicicleur
22-03-19, 19:12
CA is only G2a2 and R1b-V88, no I2
EBA has arrival I2a-M26 and I2a-L161, probably from Iberian origin (Els Trocs)
J2b2a1-L283 is Nuragic, probably eastern origin

bicicleur
22-03-19, 19:16
First off, it's a much better organized and written paper than the one from the Reich Lab by Fernandes. Second, it pays much better attention to the details of the substructure in Sardinia.

It's true that they don't have an Iron Age sample or four Late Antiquity samples, like the Reich Lab has, but I think the Reich Lab may be inferring too much from those samples in terms of the effect on modern Sardinian populations. I'm thinking particularly of the fact that this paper finds more "Levantine" in the southwest where we find evidence of Phoenician settlement, and more "northern" ancestry including Tuscan ancestry, in Olbia in the northeast and the large city of Sassari, while there is the least change in Ogliastra.

Reich is about western Med
this study zooms in on Sardegna only

Cato
22-03-19, 19:24
I-M26 could be even Northern Italian given that EBA Sardinian material culture is similar to Polada (Remedello 3/3 I-M26, last one is about 2000 BC if i'm not wrong)

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Angela
22-03-19, 20:14
Reich is about western Med
this study zooms in on Sardegna only

Yes, I'm aware, but they're saying, in effect, all Sardinians, including the ones of Ogliastra, are the same, with the same kind of admixture, and that doesn't seem to be the case.

IceMummy
23-03-19, 00:28
The R1b-V88 in 10/25 samples is really surprising (also 2 in the Reich paper in seems), basically doubles the number of R1b-V88 we have for whole ancient Europe. At present-day V88 is found in Central Africans and some Sardinians, nowhere else in Europe.

They reanalyzed R1b-V88 - look at Supp. Mat. 4., map with ages of all R1b-V88 found throughout Europe. Seems to trace back to Mesolithic Balkans or East, and then got associated with spread of Cardial Ware (Iberian Neolithic Els Trocs has it as well) That will provide some fuel for some people on here (green Sahara, cough).

IceMummy
23-03-19, 00:32
Good catch, Angela. Reich's present-day Sardinian samples seem to be from Ogliastra, which is not completely representative.

IceMummy
23-03-19, 00:59
Based on the author attribution, the aDNA work is mostly from Posth/Krause; and the analysis and writing was mostly done by the Novembre lab. Well, that explains the interesting PCA.

Angela
23-03-19, 01:14
This paper's PCA:
https://i.imgur.com/nFkLevE.png

It doesn't seem to me the Sardinians moved very much from the Neolithic/Nuragic to the present day, in contrast to what the Reich paper seemed to be saying.

I'd have to go back over the paper again, but Reich seems to be looking at samples from all over Sardinia, including the Ogliastra samples, and saying the Ogliastra samples show as much admixture as the coastal ones, while Krause seems to be implying the Ogliastra samples might indeed show less, as well as being highly drifted.

Oh, and the "Punic" Ibiza sample is still pretty damn close to the Mycenaeans.

IceMummy
23-03-19, 01:40
and that's the zoom in of the full PCA. The roughly 50-70 % Nuragic ancestry for present-day Sardinians (in both papers) seem very plausible.

There was obviously some gene flow and with some interesting geographical patterns. But despite the anicient IA and Antiquity coastal individuals from Reich being all over the place, the overall effects were modest. I have a feeling that some of the phrasing in the Reich paper won't make it through review.

Angela
23-03-19, 01:46
and that's the zoom in of the full PCA. The roughly 50-70 % Nuragic ancestry for present-day Sardinians (in both papers) seem very plausible.

There was obviously some gene flow and with some interesting geographical patterns. But despite the anicient IA and Antiquity coastal individuals from Reich being all over the place, the overall effects were modest. I have a feeling that some of the phrasing in the Reich paper won't make it through review.

That's exactly my feeling. The statements were not nuanced enough and gave the wrong impression.

Some of these newer fellows in that lab have to be supervised more, imho.

Plus, if some of these samples are sub-standard, they shouldn't be drawing such large conclusions from them.

It doesn't inspire confidence when samples landing on Mycenaeans are said to have substantial "Morocco Late Neolithic." Nor does it help that they didn't explain the make up of those samples and that it is unknown how much Carthaginians or "Saracens" of the early Medieval period might or might not resemble them.

Despite fewer ancient samples, I'll stick with the Krause paper on this topic.

The Reich Lab had better get used to samples from all over the ancient world showing up far from "home" as they analyze the period from the first millennium B.C. It doesn't mean there were tens of thousands or more of these people and they massively changed the genome. Such judgment has to be exercised.

IceMummy
23-03-19, 05:46
Just checked out the Supp. of Fernandes et al. Four of the Late Antiquity samples are from a cave that can be only reached by sea, without any archeological context (reads like they thought it's a potential Neolithic/Nuragic site, but the Radiocarbon dates showed they were younger). I am not a local nor archeologist, but sounds like one should be a bit careful with such sites without context, or at least point it out.

Certainly agree with you, the 1st millennium BCE with Punic/Roman Mediterranean times with big civilization and some pretty well-traveled people will likely start to show outliers (see Olalde2019, and this here) and one has to start to be very careful with single samples.


I believe both papers have interesting data. the Marcus et al paper actually has more ancient Sardinians, 43 compared to the 13 of Fernandes et al (counting working ones), and also many pre-Nuragic individual, including 4 Late Neolithic and Copper Age (which is really interesting to see where the Neolithic in Sardinia came from - an old debate)

Fernandes et al has Sicilly and Balearic islands going for it, which is really nice context.

Angela
23-03-19, 15:53
Just checked out the Supp. of Fernandes et al. Four of the Late Antiquity samples are from a cave that can be only reached by sea, without any archeological context (reads like they thought it's a potential Neolithic/Nuragic site, but the Radiocarbon dates showed they were younger). I am not a local nor archeologist, but sounds like one should be a bit careful with such sites without context, or at least point it out.

Certainly agree with you, the 1st millennium BCE with Punic/Roman Mediterranean times with big civilization and some pretty well-traveled people will likely start to show outliers (see Olalde2019, and this here) and one has to start to be very careful with single samples.


I believe both papers have interesting data. the Marcus et al paper actually has more ancient Sardinians, 43 compared to the 13 of Fernandes et al (counting working ones), and also many pre-Nuragic individual, including 4 Late Neolithic and Copper Age (which is really interesting to see where the Neolithic in Sardinia came from - an old debate)

Fernandes et al has Sicilly and Balearic islands going for it, which is really nice context.

I agree that Fernandes covers more "ground", so to speak, so it isn't going to be as detailed about Sardinian genetic history as this paper, but I do think that they made some errors of judgment. As you have pointed out, there is no archaeological context for those four Late Antiquity samples. They land on Mycenaeans fwiw. I don't know how many snps they have either.

In terms of Sardinian samples I also think that Fernandes made an error in only using the HGDP samples for the "Ogliastra" group. Those are the samples that Cavalli-Sforza chose and they are not all from Ogliastra, although many of them are. The Marcus paper we are discussing here used many, many modern Sardinian samples, and grouped together a group specifically from Ogliastra.

Although different analyses showed slightly different things, this is their conclusion: "Together, these results319 suggest high levels of drift specific to Ogliastra (likely also driving the first two PCs of present-day320 Sardinian variation), but simultaneously also less admixture than other Sardinian provinces."

For "Levantine" (as a stand in for Punic admixture) they show, in a three way mix, about 16% for southwestern Sardinia, and less in the modern samples from the rest of the island. I wonder if the settlements in Sardinia remained basically "Levantine", in contrast to those in Spain which had a "Carthaginian" identity, and thus contained some "North African". Certainly the "Saracens" would have been mostly "North African", although I don't know if a Moroccan LN sample is the best one to use to measure it.

That was always my contention about "Phoenician" admixture on the island, i.e. that it would show up to some degree in the SW and less in other areas, given that the Phoenicians were not "colonizers", like the Greeks. Sardinia has been a land "apart" to some degree, the terrain lends itself to separation of groups, and so I always doubted that there was widespread admixture even in Sardinia itself. Olbia is a prime example, as is indeed the entire Northern sliver, which is more shifted to northern Italy, and speaks a different language from those of the rest of Sardinia.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Sardinia_Language_Map.png

Pygmalion
23-03-19, 16:57
So, the iron age sample from the study about the Western Mediterranean islands comes from a town called Usellus in the Campidano region. In Roman times it apparently was a Roman colony as a bronze tablet found there suggests, the colony was probably founded around the second century bc, so isn't it possible for that sample to be a Roman colonist? As for the late antiquity samples, they all come from one site, a cave that can only be reached by the sea near the Sardinian capital of Cagliari (Cava dei Colombi), a strange place to bury the dead.

Angela
23-03-19, 17:20
So, the iron age sample from the study about the Western Mediterranean islands comes from a town called Usellus in the Campidano region. In Roman times it apparently was a Roman colony as a bronze tablet found there suggests, the colony was probably founded around the second century bc, so isn't it possible for that sample to be a Roman colonist? As for the late antiquity samples, they all come from one site, a cave that can only be reached by the sea near the Sardinian capital of Cagliari (Cava dei Colombi), a strange place to bury the dead.

Yes, and as Ice pointed out there was no archaeological context.

It's still true they get good fits from modeling the HGDP samples with it, but they still may not be providing an accurate picture of what was going on in the island.

IceMummy
23-03-19, 19:38
Thanks for sharing the map and your thoughts on substructure within Sardinia, Angela, that's really useful context. You present some really good interpretations of the findings.

Out of curiosity, have you ever worked "professionally" on Sardinian population history?

berun
23-03-19, 20:15
The paper says that there is population continuity from Neolithic till Nuraghe period, but in the late period there are four samples (post 1200 BC) being J2b2a1, it is a signal of the Sea Peoples? moreover in K4 some Nuraghe samples display 10% blue (Iran NEO). The cave were such Nuraghe samples were taken was very disturbed and without cultural context.

If Sherden in Sardinia is likely with such data, Tershen in Etruria / Toscana will be next.

Cato
23-03-19, 20:46
In the K4 there is also some steppe, is it real ?

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Angela
23-03-19, 21:49
Thanks for sharing the map and your thoughts on substructure within Sardinia, Angela, that's really useful context. You present some really good interpretations of the findings.

Out of curiosity, have you ever worked "professionally" on Sardinian population history?

Thanks for your kind words, IM. No, I never have. I've just been absorbed by this topic for about 10 years and Italian history and pre-history have been my passion for much longer.

IceMummy
23-03-19, 23:00
moreover in K4 some Nuraghe samples display 10% blue (Iran NEO)

Where do you have that info from? They never report admixture proportions with individual labels (unfortunately). There are a few slightly "Eastern" individuals, but we don't know if it is them (they seem to be sorted by admixture fraction, not age).

Their PCA dots are also quite in one close place. Paired with really low F_ST between Nuragic and Neolithic Sardinians would imply demographic continuity (with possible immigration from genetically similar EEF sources).

Cato
25-03-19, 21:14
archaeology suggest the coming of intrusive people between neolithic and nuragic...the monte claro culture and beaker/bonnanaro, but maybe they are "invisible" due to the fact that they were of the same stock of the native (EEF+Whg)

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Cato
13-05-19, 17:30
five nuragics are j2b2-l283 (4 in this study and 1 in Fernandes et al), eastern/steppe lineage ?

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Cato
20-05-19, 00:45
If the Romans were circa 20% steppe and considering that nuragics had none then modern Sardinians with about 10% steppe (Fernandes et al) are about 50% Italic/Romans [emoji848]
This could explain why the Sardinian languages is the most similar to Latin according with some sources
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MOESAN
08-11-19, 17:12
If the Romans were circa 20% steppe and considering that nuragics had none then modern Sardinians with about 10% steppe (Fernandes et al) are about 50% Italic/Romans [emoji848]
This could explain why the Sardinian languages is the most similar to Latin according with some sources
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Which sources?

Johane Derite
22-12-19, 01:13
Important updates. Quoting Trojet:

"The three J2b-L283's from the Nuragic culture, all dated to the Late Bronze Age, are as follows:


ORC003 is J-L283+ Z627+ YP157+ Z585-
ORC007 is J-L283+ YP157 NC Z585- Z615-
ORC008 is J-L283+ Z627+ YP157 NC Z615-


So ORC003 is surely J-YP157. The other two have no calls for J-YP157 clade, but most likely they belong there as well considering they are negative for Z585 and Z615. Not surprising here. Considering its distribution, J-YP157 subclade would've probably been my first choice to appear in ancient Sardinia:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YP157/ "

Johane Derite
22-12-19, 01:14
Important updates. Quoting Trojet:

"

Also quoting Trojet:

"After the Alsace and the Norway samples which are upstream, and since we have no J-L283 in Sardinia pre Bronze Age, I honestly think they likely made it to Sardinia through continental Europe (maybe NW Balkans>Italy>Sardinia).


Also, as I posted elsewhere, recently an Armenian BigY splits the J-L283 node! He is negative for 7 L283 SNPs, among them Z622 and Z577. If we assume current J-L283 TMRCA at 5400 ybp, the Armenian should split at ~6000 ybp. This suggests that J-L283>Z622, where the two European branches stem from, migrated en masse from further east sometime between 6000-4400 ybp (J-Z597 TMRCA).


I think the Sardinian branches likely represent some MBA migration that contained various clades and that got isolated there. I guess investigating the origin of the Nuragic culture should give us a clue.."

Johane Derite
22-12-19, 01:20
We can now say pretty confidently that the Sherden Sea Peoples were probably same J-L283 as these Nuragic people. See image:


https://i.imgur.com/oPPKmR6.png

Johane Derite
22-12-19, 01:21
I also noticed some cultural similarities between the Nuragics and bronze age Armenian kurgan finds. See image:

https://i.imgur.com/tswqOPn.jpg

Johane Derite
22-12-19, 01:22
There is without a doubt a cultural connection between these artefacts. They are made in a similar way, and both depict the totemic animals, especially deers but also goats, at the front of the chariot/boat. These finds are a bit later than the 6000-4400 ybp window though, but point to a common mythology or belief system.


This is a bit more speculative but supports your migration route through continental Europe. See image:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e5/02/88/e50288c96dfc183bf8c972af48bcf05b.jpg



This is a find from the Glasinac Culture in around the Illyrian coast.


The birds from the bronze age Glasinac cult chariot resemble very closely the totemic bird that is depicted atop the top left Nuragic boat statue, and the composition is also similar.


I think there is a cultural relation.


Glasinac I culture supposedly begins around 1800BC, around the same time as beginning of Nuragic, and is associated with the Autariatae tribe. It also fits the J-L283 found in the Illyrian coast in Mathieson paper.


A further remark. This type of Deer totem was also used as a chariot ornament by the Hittites. See image:

http://thirstyfish.com/photos/post001364.jpg

Johane Derite
22-12-19, 01:25
And the amazing Y-dna evidence for a mba-lba migration from europe into sardinia quoting Trojet:

"For the migration, we may have evidence in the J-Y21045 branch. It splits right at ~1900 BC: One subbranch defined by J-YP9 in Sardinia, while its "brother" J-Z38300 mostly in North Albania."


https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y21045/

Johane Derite
22-12-19, 01:29
Armenians seem to have a tradition of sacrificing Deers and Doves/Pigeons. This is very speculative but it could possibly be of the same religious substrate that we see in the deer and birds in those bronze figures.

"Throughout the day, doves and deer would be sacrificed in the name of the gods. Usually the horns of the deer were painted colorfully. There also was set up a big bonfire at nighttime where kids and young adults would try to jump over and around it to scare and drive away bad spirits. The celebrating people would bring their first set of harvest of the year to share with others.

Horseback riding races were done, as well as deer racing. The let go hundreds of doves into the air for good luck. Dancing, singing, intellectual and athletic competitive games were a big part of the celebrations, where competitors would try to impress the ones they admire in the audience."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navasard?oldformat=true

Vickicug
04-01-20, 05:40
I really want to know the origin of these patterns, it looks kinda celtic, but i would love if the devs told where they got this idea from. I want a tattoo on my arm so i'm looking for some patterns on the internet and this one really caught my eye.

berun
04-01-20, 13:28
there are more bots in this forum than posters

Angela
04-01-20, 16:09
It's a big holiday week here, buddy, and people have families and lives, unlike on some other sites, which are full of paid up members of various nationalist groups or total losers who do nothing but sit in their mothers' basements and obsess on this stuff.

If your only contribution is sniping a site that allows you to read and post I suggest you go back to lurking.

martin chaide
13-01-20, 12:45
modern Sardinians have really a lot of Roman/Italian admixture ("Northern Mediterranean"), it's a surprise for me

In any case very few steppe admixture circa 1-3% began to appear in the EBA (page 11) as suggested by archaeology (Bell Beaker, Polada-like Bonnanaro culture)

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not a lot, in fact the y dna (patternal descend ) of sardininas is 40% hg I (bronce age), 20% hg R1b (iron age) in italy overall are I 10% r1b 40%. this makes a huge difference, taking in mind that are samples of more than 1000 males.

Cato
06-02-20, 21:49
And the amazing Y-dna evidence for a mba-lba migration from europe into sardinia quoting Trojet:

"For the migration, we may have evidence in the J-Y21045 branch. It splits right at ~1900 BC: One subbranch defined by J-YP9 in Sardinia, while its "brother" J-Z38300 mostly in North Albania."


https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y21045/the only plausible place of origin of these immigrants is north central italy, from Tuscany in particular Asciano facies is similar to Bonnanaro material culture

I think that further researchs will find even some R1b M269 in Bronze Age Sardinia...same "dinaric" skulls as those found in mainland Europe appeared with the Bell Beakers

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Cato
10-02-20, 17:12
error.....

Angela
10-02-20, 18:27
error.....

Could you provide a link to the source, Cato, I'm having a hard time reading the legend. Thanks in advance.

Cato
10-02-20, 18:29
Could you provide a link to the source, Cato, I'm having a hard time reading the legend. Thanks in advance.Grugni et al 2019

https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/20/22/5763/htm

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torzio
10-02-20, 19:03
the only plausible place of origin of these immigrants is north central italy, from Tuscany in particular Asciano facies is similar to Bonnanaro material culture

I think that further researchs will find even some R1b M269 in Bronze Age Sardinia...same "dinaric" skulls as those found in mainland Europe appeared with the Bell Beakers

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the R-V88 is very old ...........some scholars in the past ( a few years ago ) state its travel is as follows
south-caucasus - levant- egypt ....then splits .....one line to cameroon and other along north african coast to tunisia .....then to Sardinia from there

Angela
10-02-20, 20:41
the R-V88 is very old ...........some scholars in the past ( a few years ago ) state its travel is as follows
south-caucasus - levant- egypt ....then splits .....one line to cameroon and other along north african coast to tunisia .....then to Sardinia from there

I have no idea where you got that. It's a complete misunderstanding of the genetics as the papers have shown.

R1b-V88 is a WHG y line. It got to Africa from Europe, via the Near East, not the opposite

torzio
10-02-20, 20:47
I have no idea where you got that. It's a complete misunderstanding of the genetics as the papers have shown.

R1b-V88 is a WHG y line. It got to Africa from Europe, via the Near East, not the opposite

From an academia paper by smith about 3 years ago...i was chasing T1a-pages0011 which followed R-V88

Angela
10-02-20, 21:00
From an academia paper by smith about 3 years ago...i was chasing T1a-pages0011 which followed R-V88

As I said, you've completely misunderstood. Look up recent papers which discuss R-V88 in a genetics context.

Angela
10-02-20, 21:09
As I said, you've completely misunderstood. Look up recent papers which discuss R-V88 in a genetics context.

See:
http://www.razib.com/wordpress/category/r-v88/

The link to the paper on the peopling of the Green Sahara is there. It's absolutely clear that Sardinian V88 is basal to the African varieties.

bicicleur
10-02-20, 21:38
See:
http://www.razib.com/wordpress/category/r-v88/
The link to the paper on the peopling of the Green Sahara is there. It's absolutely clear that Sardinian V88 is basal to the African varieties.
I think it is pretty obvious. The V88 or the V2219 pré-V88 lived as HG in the Danube Gorge.
They came along with the Cardium ware farmers and the LBK farmers, but the LBK farmer branch of V88 got extinct.
The only V88 branch surviving today is the one that came with the Cardium ware farmers

Check
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-V2219/
R-Y8451 is the branch that got into the Green Sahara, it's TMRCA is 7,6 ka, the exact time the Green Sahara recovered from the 8,2 ka climate event
at that time there was a river flowing from lake Chad to the Mediterranean
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/althistory/images/7/75/Green_Sahara.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/340?cb=20150612095240
the most likely route R-Y8451 took was upstream that river, and maybe they came from Sicily while R-M18 moved further into Sardegna and Y7777* into Iberia (Els Trocs was V88)
we also know that the first farmers in the British Isles did have a link with Iberia, hence Y7777* in GBR

Cato
15-02-20, 15:19
they have added other samples in the final paper from 1000 bc to the medieval period..the first R1b M269 was found in a punic context, probably a nuragic man (?)

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Pax Augusta
15-02-20, 18:09
the only plausible place of origin of these immigrants is north central italy, from Tuscany in particular Asciano facies is similar to Bonnanaro material culture

I think that further researchs will find even some R1b M269 in Bronze Age Sardinia...same "dinaric" skulls as those found in mainland Europe appeared with the Bell Beakers

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It is undeniable that between Neolithic and Bronze there are many contacts between Sardinia and Tuscany. The access route to Sardinia were the islands of the Tuscan archipelago leading to Corsica and from Corsica to Sardinia. Then certainly the phenomenon of the Bell Beaker that characterized in particular northern Italy has extensions up to the border between Liguria and north-west Tuscany, and then also in other areas of Tuscany that then will be typically Etruscan.

The presence of J2b2a-L283 between the Etruscans and the Nuragics confirms, in my opinion, the important relations over the centuries between the two areas. The differentiation occurs more with the final Bronze Age when in Etruria the proto-Villanovan arrives and is instead absent in Sardinia.



Grugni et al 2019

https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/20/22/5763/htm

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This paper is full of mistakes, Cato, and like all papers based on modern samples it is full of unproven conclusions. The skills of the geneticists of the University of Pavia are really poor, as they have repeatedly demonstrated.

For example, there is no sample from Pisa, it is always the same sample of 113 individuals from Volterra (which is located in the province of Pisa), analyzed by both Grugni and Di Cristofaro, but the latter analyzed less deeply the Y-DNA and labelled it as from Pisa, so we're at the paradox that the same sample gives different results. The very serious thing, and this reveals how Grugni is not very credible, is that she considers it two separate samples in the analysis when in reality they are the same sample. Modern Tuscan samples in this paper are the usual three that have been analyzed for at least 15 years: Volterra (Pisa), Casentino (Arezzo) and Murlo (Siena).




http://www.razib.com/wordpress/category/r-v88/

The link to the paper on the peopling of the Green Sahara is there. It's absolutely clear that Sardinian V88 is basal to the African varieties.

Indeed.

Pax Augusta
15-02-20, 18:26
In any case very few steppe admixture circa 1-3% began to appear in the EBA (page 11) as suggested by archaeology (Bell Beaker, Polada-like Bonnanaro culture)


It is very likely that early steppe admixture arrived in the EBA but perhaps it was only due to sporadic arrivals, and does not imply that the IE language speakers who are later known as Latino-Falisci and Osco-Umbri also arrived so soon.

torzio
15-02-20, 18:48
It is undeniable that between Neolithic and Bronze there are many contacts between Sardinia and Tuscany. The access route to Sardinia were the islands of the Tuscan archipelago leading to Corsica and from Corsica to Sardinia. Then certainly the phenomenon of the Bell Beaker that characterized in particular northern Italy has extensions up to the border between Liguria and north-west Tuscany, and then also in other areas of Tuscany that then will be typically Etruscan.

The presence of J2b2a-L283 between the Etruscans and the Nuragics confirms, in my opinion, the important relations over the centuries between the two areas. The differentiation occurs more with the final Bronze Age when in Etruria the proto-Villanovan arrives and is instead absent in Sardinia.





This paper is full of mistakes, Cato, and like all papers based on modern samples it is full of unproven conclusions. The skills of the geneticists of the University of Pavia are really poor, as they have repeatedly demonstrated.

For example, there is no sample from Pisa, it is always the same sample of 113 individuals from Volterra (which is located in the province of Pisa), analyzed by both Grugni and Di Cristofaro, but the latter analyzed less deeply the Y-DNA and labelled it as from Pisa, so we're at the paradox that the same sample gives different results. The very serious thing, and this reveals how Grugni is not very credible, is that she considers it two separate samples in the analysis when in reality they are the same sample. Modern Tuscan samples in this paper are the usual three that have been analyzed for at least 15 years: Volterra (Pisa), Casentino (Arezzo) and Murlo (Siena).




Indeed.

clearly the passage in ancient times of sardinian to Tuscany was via Corsica .................why is corsica always left out when it is the closest island

Pax Augusta
15-02-20, 18:51
clearly the passage in ancient times of sardinian to Tuscany was via Corsica .................why is corsica always left out when it is the closest island

Torzio, Corsica is never left out. In texts that reconstruct prehistory is often mentioned.

In Corsica during the Bronze Age this interesting facies, the Torrean culture, is documented.

Torrean culture has relations with both Sardinia, northern Italy and central Italy.

Torzio, do not take seriously what is written on the wikipedia page that many are simply unsourced fantasies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrean_civilization

Cato
15-02-20, 19:13
The presence of J2b2a-L283 between the Etruscans and the Nuragics confirms, in my opinion, the important relations over the centuries between the two areas. The differentiation occurs more with the final Bronze Age when in Etruria the proto-Villanovan arrives and is instead

i agree, it would be interesting to know how and when J2a L283 arrived in Tuscany and Italy in general

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Pax Augusta
15-02-20, 19:24
i agree, it would be interesting to know how and when J2a L283 arrived in Tuscany and Italy in general

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J2b2-L283 was found in an Etruscan necropolis in Civitavecchia, so it is Lazio not Tuscany, so it arrived in an area larger than modern Tuscany.

Hard to tell when J2b2-L283 arrived. J2b2-L283 today can be found a bit all over Italy, even in the north-west of Italy. If I remember correctly TMRCA estimated by Yfull is 5700 ybp.

torzio
15-02-20, 19:26
Torzio, Corsica is never left out. In texts that reconstruct prehistory is often mentioned.

In Corsica during the Bronze Age this interesting facies, the Torrean culture, is documented.

Torrean culture has relations with both Sardinia, northern Italy and central Italy.

Torzio, do not take seriously what is written on the wikipedia page that many are simply unsourced fantasies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrean_civilization

I never take what is written , but always confirm with the links to other papers at bottom of the wiki page and then conclude info from there

is that J marker in this paper ?
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0200641

Cato
15-02-20, 19:29
clearly the passage in ancient times of sardinian to Tuscany was via Corsica .................why is corsica always left out when it is the closest islandCorsica has not Bell Beakers so it was probably bypassed in that period. However in the EBA the material culture was similiar to that of Polada and Bonnanaro culture

According to some Radiocarbon date the Torri of Corsica predate the Nuraghe of Sardinia

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torzio
15-02-20, 19:31
Corsica has not Bell Beakers so it was probably bypassed in that period. However in the EBA the material culture was similiar to that of Polada and Bonnanaro culture

According to some Radiocarbon date the Torri of Corsica predate the Nuraghe of Sardinia

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you sure?

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0200641

Cato
15-02-20, 19:35
you sure?

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0200641As far as i know we have only a Beaker fragment in the South of Corsica

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Pax Augusta
15-02-20, 19:41
Corsica has not Bell Beakers so it was probably bypassed in that period. However in the EBA the material culture was similiar to that of Polada and Bonnanaro culture

According to some Radiocarbon date the Torri of Corsica predate the Nuraghe of Sardinia

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In fact, I believe that Bell Beaker findings are more recently also documented in Corsica, although Corsica is still lacking compared to Sardinia and Tuscany.


J. Cesari, Découverte d'un tesson campaniforme en Corse du Sud, «BSSHNC» 659, 1991, pp. 31-38



you sure?

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0200641


How does Di Cristofaro's paper prove what Cato said was wrong? A disappointing paper based on the usual speculation with modern samples.

Cato
15-02-20, 20:03
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301753787_Rapporti_fra_Italia_centrale_Corsica_e_S ardegna_durante_l'eta_dei_metalli

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