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View Full Version : Bronze Age Vucedol Culture R1b Z2103 / L23



Gash
28-03-19, 11:26
Found in modern Croatia , dates back to the Bronze Age Proto Ilyrian culture around 2000 BC supposedly. its extremely close to modern Albanians IMO and carries a typical Albanian YDNA , only its more West ... West of me and some Albanians

https://i.imgur.com/SItLIkm.png



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Vucedol_culture_map.png/800px-Vucedol_culture_map.png





Its gedmatch kit JM8436604




Its puntdnal k13


https://i.imgur.com/9g5qnUT.png


Its results are very similar to mine , compare

https://i.imgur.com/Svmuk0T.png

Gash
28-03-19, 11:26
Credit goes to Tomenable ... I wonder what the DNA LAND of this one would look

Angela
28-03-19, 15:50
Closest to Tuscans, North Italians and then Albanians it seems to me, which makes sense to me.

Nik
28-03-19, 18:02
North Italians have got to be the closest people to the original Indo-Europeans.

So much for them being "Celtic", "Germanic", "recent arrivals from the North", "closer to French than South Italians", bla bla bla.

All the Bronze Age and Iron Age Illyrians and Thracians show the same results.

Angela
28-03-19, 19:41
Thracians and Illyrians weren't pure "Indo-Europeans" by any stretch of the imagination. They were mixed people, a product of the steppe people (the minority perhaps) and the "natives" of Late Neolithic Europe, who were themselved mostly EEF, with some WHG.

I guess you could describe Northern Italians the same way.

Carlos
28-03-19, 19:47
Already in themselves the Indo-Europeans were not pure either if there was a huge diversity of mitochondrial DNA should also be composed of various ethnic groups to put it in some way.

Gash
28-03-19, 20:12
Largest segment = 3.2 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 113.0 cM (3.170 Pct)

66 shared segments found for this comparison.

145170 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.323 Pct SNPs are full identical

Angela
28-03-19, 20:27
Fwiw, Gash, I'm half Bergamo and half Tuscan on most calculators, and the ancient populations which consistently come up, are Vucedol and Hungarian Bronze Age, as well as various EEF and Anatolian Neolithic populations.

Nik
28-03-19, 20:45
Thracians and Illyrians weren't pure "Indo-Europeans" by any stretch of the imagination. They were mixed people, a product of the steppe people (the minority perhaps) and the "natives" of Late Neolithic Europe, who were themselved mostly EEF, with some WHG.

I guess you could describe Northern Italians the same way.
Being "pure" doesn't make much sense in this case as Carlos said and I didn't claim that Illyrians and Thracians were pure.

Obviously the very early Illyrians and Thracians were much closer to the "original" IEans and perhaps those original IEans had similar degrees of EEF and WHG admixture.

But compared to other modern populations, North Italians seem like one of the closest group.

It gives me the idea of a strip of land starting from the Pontian Steppe - Hallstatt - Alps - Catalonia, with the Pontian Steppes and Hallstatt peoples having been much heavily admixed while the area from North Italy to Catalonia changed much less.

Salento
28-03-19, 22:49
Thracians and Illyrians weren't pure "Indo-Europeans" by any stretch of the imagination. They were mixed people, a product of the steppe people (the minority perhaps) and the "natives" of Late Neolithic Europe, who were themselved mostly EEF, with some WHG.

I guess you could describe Northern Italians the same way.

I also get Bergamo but not as much as you.

I look Eastwards to find the Puglia-Illyria connection in my results.

Besides North-East Italy, are you saying that Bergamo has a connection with the Illyrians too?


http://i.imgur.com/hHfnLKI.jpg

Gash
29-03-19, 00:38
Closest to Tuscans, North Italians and then Albanians it seems to me, which makes sense to me.

Yeah but I am closer to Italians than this sample is :grin:

It has Tuscany at a distance of 5 while I have it at around 3 ... Bergamo it has at 6.73 while I got it at 5.99 .. even though I dont plot with Italians , I plot more East of this sample :tongue: between Bulgarian and North Italy.


Check my sig, my results are almost identical to this sample, its just a bronze age sample from 3000-2000 BC but no doubt I am looking at some of my ancestors . I also got one of the highest matched segments with this one from what I saw. If they used Albanians like me , I asume it would be closer to us.

Its just more West , I asume it scores west europe ... bronze age from montenegro was more east due to scoring east europe ... but overall these samples and us clearly have genetic overlap imo. I asume samples like the ones found in Montenegro shifted us more East , basically some ancient East European ancestry.

Gash
29-03-19, 01:00
Not to mention that this sample has a typical Albanian YDNA, same as that J2b2 , though this one is closer autosomally to me.

I would of never though bronze age sample to be this close. I mean bronze age samples from same time frame from Bulgaria were like North euros compared.

Ygorcs
29-03-19, 01:33
North Italians have got to be the closest people to the original Indo-Europeans.

So much for them being "Celtic", "Germanic", "recent arrivals from the North", "closer to French than South Italians", bla bla bla.

All the Bronze Age and Iron Age Illyrians and Thracians show the same results.

Well, there is no reason to believe that the BA and IA Illyrians and Thracians were very similar to the original Indo-Europeans, at least those that first spoke it and started its expansion, as opposed to those who actually brought it to the "core" of Europe west of the Carpathians.

markod
29-03-19, 01:35
Yeah but I am closer to Italians than this sample is :grin:

It has Tuscany at a distance of 5 while I have it at around 3 ... Bergamo it has at 6.73 while I got it at 5.99 .. even though I dont plot with Italians , I plot more East of this sample :tongue: between Bulgarian and North Italy.


Check my sig, my results are almost identical to this sample, its just a bronze age sample from 3000-2000 BC but no doubt I am looking at some of my ancestors . I also got one of the highest matched segments with this one from what I saw. If they used Albanians like me , I asume it would be closer to us.

Its just more West , I asume it scores west europe ... bronze age from montenegro was more east due to scoring east europe ... but overall these samples and us clearly have genetic overlap imo. I asume samples like the ones found in Montenegro shifted us more East , basically some ancient East European ancestry.

The Montenegrin samples are closest to Iberians and Czechs respectively. Albanians have a significant shift towards the Near East, so it is impossible they derive significant ancestry from the LBA/IA West Balkans unless the Romans settled the place with Syrians. If you mix BA/IA West Balkans with Czechs you get Austrians/Slovenians not Albanians or Serbs.

I've tried to explain befotr that this is exactly what you'd expect given the linguistic evidence, but the reaction wasn't positive to say the least :rolleyes2:

Ygorcs
29-03-19, 01:36
Already in themselves the Indo-Europeans were not pure either if there was a huge diversity of mitochondrial DNA should also be composed of various ethnic groups to put it in some way.

Virtually no ethnicity is/was "pure", but it still remains a fact that a specific ethnic group that first spoke Proto-Indo-European and had Indo-European culture must've existed and lived somewhere, and only later did it absorb and mix with other ethnicities. We're talking of populations, ethnically (i.e. culturally and linguistically) defined people, and not about race. The fact that every population is mixed does not lead us to state that "it's all the same, nobody is pure anyway". Populations with a certain ethnic identity did exist in some place and time before expanding and changing, we just have to identify them

Carlos
29-03-19, 03:53
^^
To Ygorcs

"Some time" because this is a non-stop and we are already already faced with another change. The movement is that it produces the changes in a gear that never stops. It may be the time when the European knows more about himself and has longed for or longs for a fixed identity card but seeing what has been seen on the identity card of Europe is that non-stop.

Ygorcs
29-03-19, 04:28
^^
To Ygorcs

"Some time" because this is a non-stop and we are already already faced with another change. The movement is that it produces the changes in a gear that never stops. It may be the time when the European knows more about himself and has longed for or longs for a fixed identity card but seeing what has been seen on the identity card of Europe is that non-stop.

Yes, I get what you mean, but if we want to understand history and population genetics and be able to compare populations, cultures and periods one with another we inevitably have to cut some specific moment and place in that continuous evolution and establish a fixed point so that it can be compared with what came before and after. Otherwise things will get completely muddled and fuzzy, and no analysis of the processes and movements of change, and ultimately no conclusion will be achieved. We can and do need to set a date and population that represented the last relatively homogeneous point before the main expansion of PIE-speaking people to distant lands. That does not deny that, of course, there was a continuous evolution of language, genetics and culture, but it helps clarify what processes happened before or after the main expansion and split of PIE-derived languages.

Jovialis
29-03-19, 13:14
Yes, I get what you mean, but if we want to understand history and population genetics and be able to compare populations, cultures and periods one with another we inevitably have to cut some specific moment and place in that continuous evolution and establish a fixed point so that it can be compared with what came before and after. Otherwise things will get completely muddled and fuzzy, and no analysis of the processes and movements of change, and ultimately no conclusion will be achieved. We can and do need to set a date and population that represented the last relatively homogeneous point before the main expansion of PIE-speaking people to distant lands. That does not deny that, of course, there was a continuous evolution of language, genetics and culture, but it helps clarify what processes happened before or after the main expansion and split of PIE-derived languages.

Wow! I literally just had this conversation with someone, last night IRL.

Fatherland
29-03-19, 14:58
The Montenegrin samples are closest to Iberians and Czechs respectively. Albanians have a significant shift towards the Near East, so it is impossible they derive significant ancestry from the LBA/IA West Balkans unless the Romans settled the place with Syrians. If you mix BA/IA West Balkans with Czechs you get Austrians/Slovenians not Albanians or Serbs.

I've tried to explain befotr that this is exactly what you'd expect given the linguistic evidence, but the reaction wasn't positive to say the least :rolleyes2:

What makes you think samples from Albania proper within the same timeframe wouldnt plot more similarily to modern Albanians?

Seems like proto-Albanians were more north-western shifted and gradually mixed with Greek women more or less. It's no surprise here, we border the Greeks for several millenias now. Illyrians had contact with Greeks, and also the Dorics were said to be related to the Illyrians.

Plenty of modern Scando, Slav, French, German samples, and so on, are more Near-Eastern shifted than their Bronze Age IE counterparts.

Duarte
29-03-19, 15:19
Sorry for my ignorance.

My question lies is in this fact: Why the Puntdnal K13 calculator was chosen for the study of that specific case.
According It's creator: "The impetus in creating this calculator was the release of the Southeast Asian study, which inspired me to create a calculator that included a Southeast Asian component and give my Southeast and Northeast asian people a more accurate calculator for their ancestry."

In my specific case, that am mainly an Iberian, the distances in the "1 population approximation" are very large, and only become smaller in the case of 4 populations approximation:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Spaniard @ 9.395582
2 Italian_Bergamo @ 10.434740
3 Italian_Tuscan @ 13.895406
4 Macedonian @ 15.314872
5 French @ 15.747106
6 French_Basque @ 16.059492
7 Albanian @ 16.189871
8 Puerto_Rican @ 16.203737
9 Bulgarian @ 16.428440
10 Kosovar @ 16.615946
11 Greek_Thessaly @ 17.111013
12 Serbian @ 17.448019
13 Montenegrin @ 17.732849
14 Romanian @ 18.374989
15 Belgian @ 19.437056
16 German_South @ 19.748306
17 Croatian @ 19.880758
18 Italian_Abruzzo @ 19.989098
19 Bosnian @ 20.218548
20 Greek_Central @ 22.063169

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Basque +25% German_South +25% Moroccan @ 4.618662

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Serbian @ 4.517266
2 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + German_South @ 4.555442
3 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Moldavian @ 4.568152
4 Algerian + Croatian + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.597589
5 French_Basque + French_Basque + German_South + Moroccan @ 4.618662
6 Algerian + Bosnian + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.622537
7 Puerto_Rican + Spaniard + Spaniard + Spaniard @ 4.655657
8 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Hungarian @ 4.683390
9 French_Basque + French_Basque + Moroccan + Scottish @ 4.708595
10 French_Basque + French_Basque + German_South + Tunisian @ 4.725478
11 English + French_Basque + French_Basque + Moroccan @ 4.731346
12 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Mozabite + Scottish @ 4.742117
13 Algerian + English + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.764601
14 French_Basque + Italian_Tuscan + Puerto_Rican + Spaniard @ 4.771196
15 Albanian + French_Basque + Puerto_Rican + Spaniard @ 4.773725
16 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Slovene @ 4.776832
17 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Scottish @ 4.789011
18 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Mozabite + Orcadian @ 4.796102
19 Algerian + French_Basque + German_South + Spaniard @ 4.796734
20 French_Basque + French_Basque + Moldavian + Mozabite @ 4.799528

Hugs to all :)

markod
29-03-19, 17:26
What makes you think samples from Albania proper within the same timeframe wouldnt plot more similarily to modern Albanians?
Seems like proto-Albanians were more north-western shifted and gradually mixed with Greek women more or less. It's no surprise here, we border the Greeks for several millenias now. Illyrians had contact with Greeks, and also the Dorics were said to be related to the Illyrians.
Plenty of modern Scando, Slav, French, German samples, and so on, are more Near-Eastern shifted than their Bronze Age IE counterparts.

The difference between Iberians and Albanians/Tuscans is actually not trivial. It would require like 50% replacement with Greeks as source of admixture. I find this very unlikely.

Fatherland
29-03-19, 18:00
The difference between Iberians and Albanians/Tuscans is actually not trivial. It would require like 50% replacement with Greeks as source of admixture. I find this very unlikely.
No, it is likely, doesn't have to be Greeks, but a EEF source.

The same way it happened to Iberia, almost completely replaced by Yamnaya R1b, yet largely EEF in admixture.

North Albanians have less Near Eastern admixture than South Albanians. It goes like a gradual line, increasing the more south.

Angela
29-03-19, 18:07
A lot of my gedmatch results for two population mixes show approximately 50% Iberian/50% Greek.

It's not at all unusual for central/Northern Italians.

Just take a look at the map. It makes perfect sense.

MOESAN
29-03-19, 18:32
^^
To Ygorcs

"Some time" because this is a non-stop and we are already already faced with another change. The movement is that it produces the changes in a gear that never stops. It may be the time when the European knows more about himself and has longed for or longs for a fixed identity card but seeing what has been seen on the identity card of Europe is that non-stop.

I agree for a part, but this process is not level and history knew periods of relative stability compared to other periods and by example between plain Middle Ages and 1900's it seems to me that a lot of regions stayed relatively stable, with a rather sedented basic population (agrculture); otherwise we could not see the current differences between European populations, even if these differences are not huge ones. AS says Ygorcs, we may try to find out these periods of stability and changes and try to link them to political/economical/ethnical/linguistic facts so history.

Sile
29-03-19, 18:58
Sorry for my ignorance.
My question lies is in this fact: Why the Puntdnal K13 calculator was chosen for the study of that specific case.
According It's creator: "The impetus in creating this calculator was the release of the Southeast Asian study, which inspired me to create a calculator that included a Southeast Asian component and give my Southeast and Northeast asian people a more accurate calculator for their ancestry."
In my specific case, that am mainly an Iberian, the distances in the "1 population approximation" are very large, and only become smaller in the case of 4 populations approximation:
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Spaniard @ 9.395582
2 Italian_Bergamo @ 10.434740
3 Italian_Tuscan @ 13.895406
4 Macedonian @ 15.314872
5 French @ 15.747106
6 French_Basque @ 16.059492
7 Albanian @ 16.189871
8 Puerto_Rican @ 16.203737
9 Bulgarian @ 16.428440
10 Kosovar @ 16.615946
11 Greek_Thessaly @ 17.111013
12 Serbian @ 17.448019
13 Montenegrin @ 17.732849
14 Romanian @ 18.374989
15 Belgian @ 19.437056
16 German_South @ 19.748306
17 Croatian @ 19.880758
18 Italian_Abruzzo @ 19.989098
19 Bosnian @ 20.218548
20 Greek_Central @ 22.063169
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Basque +25% German_South +25% Moroccan @ 4.618662
Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Serbian @ 4.517266
2 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + German_South @ 4.555442
3 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Moldavian @ 4.568152
4 Algerian + Croatian + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.597589
5 French_Basque + French_Basque + German_South + Moroccan @ 4.618662
6 Algerian + Bosnian + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.622537
7 Puerto_Rican + Spaniard + Spaniard + Spaniard @ 4.655657
8 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Hungarian @ 4.683390
9 French_Basque + French_Basque + Moroccan + Scottish @ 4.708595
10 French_Basque + French_Basque + German_South + Tunisian @ 4.725478
11 English + French_Basque + French_Basque + Moroccan @ 4.731346
12 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Mozabite + Scottish @ 4.742117
13 Algerian + English + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.764601
14 French_Basque + Italian_Tuscan + Puerto_Rican + Spaniard @ 4.771196
15 Albanian + French_Basque + Puerto_Rican + Spaniard @ 4.773725
16 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Slovene @ 4.776832
17 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Scottish @ 4.789011
18 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Mozabite + Orcadian @ 4.796102
19 Algerian + French_Basque + German_South + Spaniard @ 4.796734
20 French_Basque + French_Basque + Moldavian + Mozabite @ 4.799528
Hugs to all :)

is this admixture correct as it states SW ( south West ) or do they mean SE
.
mine below
puntDNAL K13 Oracle
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 40.21
2 NE_Europe 31.47
3 West_Asia 15.60
4 SW_Asia 8.21
5 NE_Asia 1.68
6 South_Asia 1.20
7 West_Africa 1.10
Finished reading population data. 191 populations found.
13 components mode.
--------------------------------
Least-squares method.
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Italian_Bergamo @ 5.380587
2 Macedonian @ 5.615315
3 Italian_Tuscan @ 6.227891
4 Bulgarian @ 6.515718
5 Kosovar @ 7.404111
6 Albanian @ 7.734768
7 Montenegrin @ 8.686404
8 Greek_Thessaly @ 8.695016
9 Romanian @ 9.424124
10 Serbian @ 9.521023
11 Spaniard @ 10.405109
12 French @ 13.239509
13 Bosnian @ 13.569337
14 Italian_Abruzzo @ 14.127935
15 Croatian @ 14.418421
16 Greek_Central @ 14.897999
17 German_South @ 16.106207
18 Moldavian @ 16.144953
19 Belgian @ 16.758413
20 Hungarian @ 17.273235
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +50% Italian_Bergamo @ 2.879009
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Italian_Bergamo +25% French_Basque +25% Romanian @ 2.411094
Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++
1 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish_Kayseri + Utahn_European @ 1.902782
2 French_Basque + Hungarian + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.002598
3 French_Basque + Italian_Tuscan + Turkish + Utahn_European @ 2.003595
4 French_Basque + Moldavian + Spaniard + Turkish @ 2.010896
5 English + French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.016394
6 French_Basque + Moldavian + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.043981
7 Croatian + French_Basque + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.045027
8 Bosnian + French_Basque + Spaniard + Turkish @ 2.058331
9 Azerbaijan_Azeri + Belgian + French_Basque + Spaniard @ 2.067628
10 French_Basque + Slovene + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.069413
11 French_Basque + Hungarian + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish @ 2.078355
12 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Slovene + Turkish @ 2.124298
13 French + French_Basque + Macedonian + Turkish @ 2.145992
14 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Orcadian + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.150871
15 Bosnian + French_Basque + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.156808
16 French_Basque + Irish + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.157369
17 English + French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish @ 2.162531
18 Belgian + French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.173811
19 English + French_Basque + Italian_Tuscan + Turkish @ 2.182699
20 German_South + Spaniard + Spaniard + Turkish @ 2.183275

Sile
29-03-19, 19:07
I also get Bergamo but not as much as you.
I look Eastwards to find the Puglia-Illyria connection in my results.
Besides North-East Italy, are you saying that Bergamo has a connection with the Illyrians too?
http://i.imgur.com/hHfnLKI.jpg
Well, bergamo was under the Rhaetic people, neighbours of venetic and illyrians
oderzo and trieste are known illyrian cities before becoming venetic
illyrians and celts created halstatt culture
so, there could be some neighborly union

Duarte
29-03-19, 19:33
is this admixture correct as it states SW ( south West ) or do they mean SE
.
mine below
puntDNAL K13 Oracle
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 40.21
2 NE_Europe 31.47
3 West_Asia 15.60
4 SW_Asia 8.21
5 NE_Asia 1.68
6 South_Asia 1.20
7 West_Africa 1.10
Finished reading population data. 191 populations found.
13 components mode.
--------------------------------
Least-squares method.
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Italian_Bergamo @ 5.380587
2 Macedonian @ 5.615315
3 Italian_Tuscan @ 6.227891
4 Bulgarian @ 6.515718
5 Kosovar @ 7.404111
6 Albanian @ 7.734768
7 Montenegrin @ 8.686404
8 Greek_Thessaly @ 8.695016
9 Romanian @ 9.424124
10 Serbian @ 9.521023
11 Spaniard @ 10.405109
12 French @ 13.239509
13 Bosnian @ 13.569337
14 Italian_Abruzzo @ 14.127935
15 Croatian @ 14.418421
16 Greek_Central @ 14.897999
17 German_South @ 16.106207
18 Moldavian @ 16.144953
19 Belgian @ 16.758413
20 Hungarian @ 17.273235
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +50% Italian_Bergamo @ 2.879009
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Italian_Bergamo +25% French_Basque +25% Romanian @ 2.411094
Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++
1 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish_Kayseri + Utahn_European @ 1.902782
2 French_Basque + Hungarian + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.002598
3 French_Basque + Italian_Tuscan + Turkish + Utahn_European @ 2.003595
4 French_Basque + Moldavian + Spaniard + Turkish @ 2.010896
5 English + French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.016394
6 French_Basque + Moldavian + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.043981
7 Croatian + French_Basque + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.045027
8 Bosnian + French_Basque + Spaniard + Turkish @ 2.058331
9 Azerbaijan_Azeri + Belgian + French_Basque + Spaniard @ 2.067628
10 French_Basque + Slovene + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.069413
11 French_Basque + Hungarian + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish @ 2.078355
12 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Slovene + Turkish @ 2.124298
13 French + French_Basque + Macedonian + Turkish @ 2.145992
14 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Orcadian + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.150871
15 Bosnian + French_Basque + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.156808
16 French_Basque + Irish + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.157369
17 English + French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish @ 2.162531
18 Belgian + French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.173811
19 English + French_Basque + Italian_Tuscan + Turkish @ 2.182699
20 German_South + Spaniard + Spaniard + Turkish @ 2.183275

Thank you by the reply Sile :)

Pip
30-03-19, 01:34
I'm not sure we can be too specific about Vucedol, as its DNA seems recently-mixed and diverse, both autosomally and in terms of its yDNA lineages. When it is so mixed, it is difficult to track where the bulk of its descendants might have ended up.

Its Z2103 sample I3499 looks atypical of Z2103, and more like a cross between Central European Bell Beaker and North Iberian; but I see no signs in it of Yamnayan descent, nor of it being ancestral to Bell Beaker. However, samples around it do look either Yamnayan or undiluted EEF.

Carlos
30-03-19, 03:42
This one is mine. I have much less W- Asia than the others. Does it mean that I am more Neolithic and I have very little or nothing of Yanamama? I am always 4, 5 or more away and my parents are from the same town.

puntDNAL K13 Global Oracle results:puntDNAL K13 Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
SW_Europe
46.76


2
NE_Europe
32.8


3
West_Asia
7.54


4
SW_Asia
6.1


5
South_Asia
1.27


6
NE_Asia
1.24


7
East_Africa
1.09


8
Siberia
0.99


9
West_Africa
0.9


10
South_Africa
0.77


11
Oceania
0.29


12
SE_Asia
0.27



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
Spaniard
4.46


2
Italian_Bergamo
7.89


3
French_Basque
9.73


4
French
11.28


5
Italian_Tuscan
13.41


6
Macedonian
14.12


7
Belgian
15.02


8
Bulgarian
15.28


9
Serbian
15.29


10
German_South
15.4


11
Kosovar
16.02


12
Montenegrin
16.07


13
Albanian
16.08


14
Croatian
16.61


15
Greek_Thessaly
16.94


16
Romanian
17.27


17
Bosnian
17.54


18
English
17.72


19
Hungarian
18.45


20
Scottish
18.84



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

83.9%
French_Basque
+
16.1%
Afghan_Uzbeki
@
3.27


2

81.1%
French_Basque
+
18.9%
Nogay
@
3.39


3

80.1%
French_Basque
+
19.9%
Turkish_Aydin
@
3.41


4

83.6%
French_Basque
+
16.4%
Tadjik
@
3.68


5

97%
Spaniard
+
3%
Oroqen
@
3.74


6

97.1%
Spaniard
+
2.9%
Daur
@
3.77


7

96.9%
Spaniard
+
3.1%
Burmese
@
3.77


8

97.2%
Spaniard
+
2.8%
Xibo
@
3.77


9

97.3%
Spaniard
+
2.7%
Bulala
@
3.78


10

97.1%
Spaniard
+
2.9%
Hadza
@
3.79


11

97.3%
Spaniard
+
2.7%
Naxi
@
3.8


12

96.8%
Spaniard
+
3.2%
Mongolian
@
3.83


13

97.5%
Spaniard
+
2.5%
Anuak
@
3.83


14

97.5%
Spaniard
+
2.5%
Sudanese_South
@
3.84


15

96.9%
Spaniard
+
3.1%
Thai
@
3.84


16

97.6%
Spaniard
+
2.4%
Dinka
@
3.84


17

97.5%
Spaniard
+
2.5%
Korean
@
3.85


18

97.5%
Spaniard
+
2.5%
Han_North_China
@
3.85


19

97.6%
Spaniard
+
2.4%
Japanese
@
3.85


20

97.6%
Spaniard
+
2.4%
Biaka_Pygmy
@
3.85

markod
30-03-19, 05:57
No, it is likely, doesn't have to be Greeks, but a EEF source.

The same way it happened to Iberia, almost completely replaced by Yamnaya R1b, yet largely EEF in admixture.

North Albanians have less Near Eastern admixture than South Albanians. It goes like a gradual line, increasing the more south.

I thought this would be common knowledge by now, but the 'Balkanic' populations are defined by their divergence towards the Caucasus/Iran. EEF admixture doesn't suffice - the LBA/IA samples look Iberian because they don't have extra CHG.

Salento
30-03-19, 15:55
Well, bergamo was under the Rhaetic people, neighbours of venetic and illyrians
oderzo and trieste are known illyrian cities before becoming venetic
illyrians and celts created halstatt culture
so, there could be some neighborly union
puntDNAL K12 Ancient:
http://i.imgur.com/7dNmB59.jpg

puntDNAL K10 Ancient:
http://i.imgur.com/eEENATj.jpg

I'm not that mixed, on k13 p-dnal I get 5 Anc., you get 7, Carlos get 12.
http://i.imgur.com/yO3tsfJ.jpg

Carlos
30-03-19, 16:37
^^
I thought my parents were more sedentary. You and the rest get higher in W-Asia, me lower. What town or ethnic group does W-Asia represent?
puntDNAL K12 Ancient Oracle



1
Alberstedt_LN_I0118
15.95


2
Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97
17.39


3
Vatya_SG_RISE479
17.92


4
Halberstadt_LBA_I0099
18.2


5
Hungary_BA_I1502
18.22


6
Unetice_EBA_I0117
18.49


7
Hungary_CA_I1497
19.15


8
Iceman_MN_SG
20.02


9
Bell_Beaker_Czech_RISE569
20.73


10
BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059
21.16


11
Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549
21.42


12
Epserstedt_MN_I0172
21.43


13
Baalberge_MN_I0560
21.49


14
Hungary_EN_I0495
21.69


15
Iberia_M_ I0406
21.91


16
BattleAxe_Sweden_SG_RISE94
22.99


17
Iberia_EN_I0412
23.64


18
Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300
24.44


19
Potapovka_I0419
24.84


20
LBK_EN_I0054
25.14



puntDNAL K10 Ancient


1
Italian_North
4.32


2
Spanish_Southwest
7.03


3
Tuscan
7.72


4
Italian_South
7.91


5
Spanish_Northeast
8.59


6
Albanian
9.2


7
French
10.05


8
Bulgarian
10.08


9
Greek
10.33


10
German_South
14.27


11
Sicilian
14.31


12
Croatian
15.05


13
Ashkenazi_Jew
16.43


14
Utahn_white
16.91


15
Hungarian
17.21


16
Irish
18.22


17
English_South
18.82


18
Basque_Spanish
19.53


19
Czech
20.47


20
German_North
20.72

Salento
30-03-19, 17:41
Generally:
West Asia = Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Iran, Iraq, and the Caucasus.
Caucasus = Located between the Black and Caspian Seas. Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia.

Carlos
30-03-19, 17:46
Since the Gedmatch was on I took advantage of it and I made a total Gedrosia for the same price and it is very decorative.

gedrosia K6 Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer
42.16


2
Natufian
39.25


3
Ancestral_North_Eurasian
15.23


4
Sub_Saharan
2.57





Using 1 population approximation:
1 Spanish @ 3.253918
2 French @ 3.536413
3 Croatian @ 4.155406
4 Hungarian @ 4.755836
5 English @ 6.161438
6 Romanian @ 6.428096
7 Czech @ 6.509709
8 Scottish @ 7.430361
9 Ukrainian @ 8.017553
10 Bulgarian @ 8.058025
11 Basque @ 8.199252
12 Norwegian @ 8.529338
13 Icelandic @ 9.744299
14 Europe_LNBA @ 10.917182
15 Albanian @ 11.921358
16 Estonian @ 13.026413
17 Lithuanian @ 13.567991
18 Greek @ 13.771868
19 Sardinian @ 14.285989
20 Russian @ 14.887043

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Hungarian +50% Spanish @ 1.903018


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Italian_South +25% Palestinian +25% WHG @ 1.049433


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++
1 Albanian + Cypriot + Hungarian_KO1 + Palestinian @ 0.825008
2 Albanian + Cypriot + Palestinian + WHG @ 0.825008

Salento
30-03-19, 18:07
@Carlos
Gedrosia 6 4 pop. (don’t laugh, LOL)

https://i.imgur.com/WXTr7U8.jpg

halfalp
30-03-19, 18:45
I heard somewhere that it doesn't make sense to use a Gedrosia calculator as an European because they are meant to be used by people from Greater Iran or India. Obviously the calculator gonna take the closest population between modern Gedrosia component and your Europeans component. I tried once, i had mostly Armenian and Caucasus ancestry. It skewed the results no?

halfalp
30-03-19, 18:51
The J2b2 sample of Croatia_EMBA is a Coastal sample, wich somehow makes sense with the Maritime CHG introgression in BA Mediterranean Sea that start to showing up in recent papers. While the Vucedol Z2103 sample is far inland in the Pannonian Plain, wich matches a Steppe or beyond-Tisza origin. Why modern Albanians have so much J2b ( 20%? ) and where is it found in Albania? Coast, Mountains or everywhere? As why the J2b2 Croatia_EMBA have a lot of Steppe ancestry, is the biggest mistery.

Pip
30-03-19, 19:25
I ran some autosomal optimal fit calculations over modern Albanians.

As you would expect, this yields a mix of many ancient populations - but with the major 'contributors' estimated as Vucedol and El Portalon.

Vucedol and El Portalon are also good fits for each other, both seem to have early Steppe influences, and both have R1b-M269.

I would hypothesise that Vucedol represents either a retreat point for some of the earliest (4th millennium BC) steppic migrators into Western Europe or an early staging point from which the earliest steppic migrators moved into Western Europe in the 4th millennium BC. It also looks like these people admixed there with Yamnayan-like invaders from the Southern Steppe/Western Caucasus, and later spread southwards.

The other significant (although less significant) contributor to modern Albanians (and other Adriatic populations) looks to be Levantine DNA. I'm not sure what this represents or how it got there, but the bulk of it doesn't appear to be from Vucedol.

halfalp
30-03-19, 19:25
I heard somewhere that it doesn't make sense to use a Gedrosia calculator as an European because they are meant to be used by people from Greater Iran or India. Obviously the calculator gonna take the closest population between modern Gedrosia component and your Europeans component. I tried once, i had mostly Armenian and Caucasus ancestry. It skewed the results no?

Edit: Wait i redo it. And it gived me this:




1
Natufian
41.35


2
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer
40.25


3
Ancestral_North_Eurasian
18.40



Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Albanian +50% English @ 1.189248


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Basque +25% Georgian +25% Icelandic @ 1.066368


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Croatian + English + French + Italian_South @ 1.059244

Duarte
30-03-19, 21:40
Edit: Wait i redo it. And it gived me this:




1
Natufian
41.35


2
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer
40.25


3
Ancestral_North_Eurasian
18.40



Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Albanian +50% English @ 1.189248


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Basque +25% Georgian +25% Icelandic @ 1.066368


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Croatian + English + French + Italian_South @ 1.059244

Ancient Eurasia K6 4-Ancestors Oracle - gedrosia K6 Oracle transforms me in a Sephardic Jew.
Not bad :)

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Jew_Moroccan +25% Motala12 +25% Saharawi @ 0.815850


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +
1 Jew_Libyan + Jew_Moroccan + Motala12 + Saharawi @ 0.459937
2 Jew_Moroccan + Jew_Tunisian + Motala12 + Saharawi @ 0.527387
3 Jew_Libyan + Jew_Moroccan + Saharawi + SHG @ 0.629628
4 Hungarian_KO1 + Jew_Iranian + Jew_Libyan + Moroccan @ 0.753386
5 Jew_Iranian + Jew_Libyan + Moroccan + WHG @ 0.753386
6 Hungarian_KO1 + Jew_iraqi + Jew_Libyan + Moroccan @ 0.753880
7 Jew_iraqi + Jew_Libyan + Moroccan + WHG @ 0.753880
8 Armenia_ChL + Hungarian_KO1 + Jew_Yemenite + Saharawi @ 0.771465
9 Armenia_ChL + Jew_Yemenite + Saharawi + WHG @ 0.771465
10 Algerian + Jew_Libyan + Jew_Libyan + SHG @ 0.773988
11 Jew_Libyan + Jew_Tunisian + Motala12 + Saharawi @ 0.779528
12 Albanian + Motala12 + Saharawi + Saudi @ 0.782932
13 Armenia_ChL + Hungarian_KO1 + Saharawi + Saudi @ 0.790886
14 Armenia_ChL + Saharawi + Saudi + WHG @ 0.790886
15 Jew_Moroccan + Jew_Moroccan + Motala12 + Saharawi @ 0.815850
16 Cypriot + Hungarian_KO1 + Jordanian + Moroccan @ 0.816294
17 Cypriot + Jordanian + Moroccan + WHG @ 0.816294
18 Cypriot + Hungarian_KO1 + Moroccan + Palestinian @ 0.831467
19 Cypriot + Moroccan + Palestinian + WHG @ 0.831467
20 Algerian + Jew_Libyan + Jew_Tunisian + Motala12 @ 0.842786

halfalp
30-03-19, 21:55
Anyway, i think for Europeans with not known foreign ancestry, it's best to just use K13 and K15. The Gedrosia calculator just saying that i'm basically EEF and WHG in majority with a little bit of Steppe/CHG. But why is EEF represented with Natufian dont sound accurate.

Duarte
31-03-19, 00:06
Anyway, i think for Europeans with not known foreign ancestry, it's best to just use K13 and K15. The Gedrosia calculator just saying that i'm basically EEF and WHG in majority with a little bit of Steppe/CHG. But why is EEF represented with Natufian dont sound accurate.

Thanks by reply halfalp. Have a nice weekend:)
PS: You're right about the Gedrosia project of GEDmatch. See below:

GedrosiaDNA
This project focuses primarily Eurasian (especially Indian and Asian) and ancient DNA. There is no website, but for further questions, please contact the creator at [email protected] ([email protected])

Fatherland
31-03-19, 00:06
The J2b2 sample of Croatia_EMBA is a Coastal sample, wich somehow makes sense with the Maritime CHG introgression in BA Mediterranean Sea that start to showing up in recent papers. While the Vucedol Z2103 sample is far inland in the Pannonian Plain, wich matches a Steppe or beyond-Tisza origin. Why modern Albanians have so much J2b ( 20%? ) and where is it found in Albania? Coast, Mountains or everywhere? As why the J2b2 Croatia_EMBA have a lot of Steppe ancestry, is the biggest mistery.
The Ancient J2b2 sample is from the hinterlands, mountains near the coast.

J2b2 peaks in north Albanians(Ghegs), with frequencies varying between 20-30%. Some Albanian regions up there contain as much as 35%.

West Balkan South Slavics barely have any of it, I think Croats have 3-5% at most.

Duarte
31-03-19, 00:07
@Carlos
Gedrosia 6 4 pop. (don’t laugh, LOL)

https://i.imgur.com/WXTr7U8.jpg

Whether in one part, or divided into two, three or four parts, all parts will always be from South Italy. This is what I call ethnic purity. LOL.
Big hug dear friend Salento :)

halfalp
31-03-19, 00:37
The Ancient J2b2 sample is from the hinterlands, mountains near the coast.

J2b2 peaks in north Albanians(Ghegs), with frequencies varying between 20-30%. Some Albanian regions up there contain as much as 35%.

West Balkan South Slavics barely have any of it, I think Croats have 3-5% at most.

I rewatched the map, and yes it's in the other side of those coastal mounts. But i feel Coastal roads makes still more sense than any Continental road. Like, from North Caucasus to Sardinia by Lands? Funny thing, J2b both in North Caucasus and in Sardinia, seems linked with some Megalithic technology. As Caucasus Dolem_MBA and Sardinian Nuraghs. Or is the Caucasus sample not related with Dolmen_MBA?

Salento
31-03-19, 01:09
Whether in one part, or divided into two, three or four parts, all parts will always be from South Italy. This is what I call ethnic purity. LOL.
Big hug dear friend Salento :)

As long as I’m not the one saying that about myself, I’m OK with it.
People might get the wrong idea.
Thanks. LOL

Carlos
31-03-19, 03:16
^^
I can not help it I laughed softly but with Duarte's I laughed out loud, but like some friends would laugh at a bar. It is true what you say that people are wrong when someone can say something and more on these issues.

Duarte
31-03-19, 18:13
^^
I can not help it I laughed softly but with Duarte's I laughed out loud, but like some friends would laugh at a bar. It is true what you say that people are wrong when someone can say something and more on these issues.

^^ LOL.
I understand what you two (Carlos and Salento) want to say. There is always the patrol of the politically corrects to distort an innocent speech made in a jokingly between friends. Many people fail to contextualize the situation in which a phrase was said. But I believe that this is not our problem, but of those who do not make an effort minimally to understand things at all. I always reply from the following way: "All of you need to pay attention in what was said and revise your concepts." LOL.
Kisses and Hugs dear friends :)

Aaron1981
01-04-19, 17:40
Being "pure" doesn't make much sense in this case as Carlos said and I didn't claim that Illyrians and Thracians were pure.

Obviously the very early Illyrians and Thracians were much closer to the "original" IEans and perhaps those original IEans had similar degrees of EEF and WHG admixture.

But compared to other modern populations, North Italians seem like one of the closest group.

It gives me the idea of a strip of land starting from the Pontian Steppe - Hallstatt - Alps - Catalonia, with the Pontian Steppes and Hallstatt peoples having been much heavily admixed while the area from North Italy to Catalonia changed much less.

What an absurd comment, of course North Italians have ancestry from the north, at least from France, indirectly from central Europe. If you agree that southern Italians have Middle Eastern ancestry which arrived via island hopping, why would the less challenging route (across central Europe and around the Alps) not have happened? Italian ancestry is clinal, with the northern half being far closer to central and west Europeans in character.

Aaron1981
01-04-19, 17:47
I'm not sure we can be too specific about Vucedol, as its DNA seems recently-mixed and diverse, both autosomally and in terms of its yDNA lineages. When it is so mixed, it is difficult to track where the bulk of its descendants might have ended up.

Its Z2103 sample I3499 looks atypical of Z2103, and more like a cross between Central European Bell Beaker and North Iberian; but I see no signs in it of Yamnayan descent, nor of it being ancestral to Bell Beaker. However, samples around it do look either Yamnayan or undiluted EEF.

Every R1b-M269 I have seen in the aDNA record can be modeled as partly Yamnayan. This is because an early split of CHG prior to the Maykop culture was absorbed on the steppe. On the other side of the coin, there was Iran_Neo ancestry which remained mostly local to the Middle East and Caucasus and was part of the island hopping that moved across the Mediterranean during the Bronze Age. You could see this split on the old Dodecad calculators when Caucasus type of ancestry split as "West Asian" and "Gedrosia", at least, they were labeled as such. Even French Basque can be modeled as having Gedrosian ancestry, which is of course related to Yamnaya. In terms of West Asian ancestry (aka Iran-Neo), it's practically nil.

Joey37
01-04-19, 18:00
Well, I'm more German South...Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% German_South +50% German_South @ 3.739271


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% German_South +25% German_South +25% German_South @ 3.739271


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++
1 German_South + German_South + German_South + German_South @ 3.739271

Nik
01-04-19, 21:54
What an absurd comment, of course North Italians have ancestry from the north, at least from France, indirectly from central Europe. If you agree that southern Italians have Middle Eastern ancestry which arrived via island hopping, why would the less challenging route (across central Europe and around the Alps) not have happened? Italian ancestry is clinal, with the northern half being far closer to central and west Europeans in character.
What exactly is the purpose of this stupid post? Do you even understand what is being discussed? Have you seen other charts where ancient and current populations are being compared and obviously they don't match that much because people move around?