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bicicleur
04-04-19, 08:05
Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian nomadic groups arrived into the Carpathian Basin from the
Eurasian Steppes and significantly influenced its political and ethnical landscape. In order to shed light on the
genetic affinity of above groups we have determined Y chromosomal haplogroups and autosomal loci, from 49
individuals, supposed to represent military leaders. Haplogroups from the Hun-age are consistent with Xiongnu
ancestry of European Huns. Most of the Avar-age individuals carry east Eurasian Y haplogroups typical for
modern north-eastern Siberian and Buryat populations and their autosomal loci indicate mostly unmixed Asian
characteristics. In contrast the conquering Hungarians seem to be a recently assembled population incorporating
pure European, Asian and admixed components. Their heterogeneous paternal and maternal lineages indicate
similar phylogeographic origin of males and females, derived from Central-Inner Asian and European Pontic
Steppe sources. Composition of conquering Hungarian paternal lineages is very similar to that of Baskhirs,
supporting historical sources that report identity of the two groups.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/04/03/597997.full.pdf

halfalp
04-04-19, 10:40
Nice that they finally concluded that European Huns are similar genetically to Xiongnus. This can be an open door for further hypothesis. But on their Hun samples they have an U106 individual, wich seems to lead way more to Goths and not ethnic Huns.

bicicleur
04-04-19, 10:51
Nice that they finally concluded that European Huns are similar genetically to Xiongnus. This can be an open door for further hypothesis. But on their Hun samples they have an U106 individual, wich seems to lead way more to Goths and not ethnic Huns.

yes, it seems they incorporated some Goths from the Pontic steppe

the Huns seem to have divided the Germanic tribes
some allied with the Huns, others with the Roman Empire

markod
04-04-19, 10:52
Interesting that the Magyars were your average Carpathian-Steppic population. The highest status individual was I2a-L621.

Quite dark inferred pigmentation by modern standards throughout, and a very pre-modern mtDNA pool.

Avar Y-DNA is Turkic-Siberian or Eskimo-Chukchi - I'm guessing the former.

halfalp
04-04-19, 10:56
yes, it seems they incorporated some Goths from the Pontic steppe

the Huns seem to have divided the Germanic tribes
some allied with the Huns, others with the Roman Empire

Wich makes sense if we follow history no? Ostrogoths allied with Huns and Visigoths going their own way in the Empire.

halfalp
04-04-19, 11:01
The preponderance of U106 in Central Europe and Z2124 ( Z93 ). Quite confirms us what history always told. Even tho, i'm impressed by the number of U106 in those samples.

Btw: KeF2/1025Kenézlő-Fazekaszug II/1025895-mid Xth c.M269 (xM412, xU106)L23R1b1a1b ?????

halfalp
04-04-19, 11:02
Interesting that the Magyars were your average Carpathian-Steppic population. The highest status individual was I2a-L621.

Quite dark inferred pigmentation by modern standards throughout, and a very pre-modern mtDNA pool.

Avar Y-DNA is Turkic-Siberian or Eskimo-Chukchi - I'm guessing the former.

What are the odds that the Q1a2 Hun individual was Dark Skinned, really?

Also this individual...

K2/51N1a1a1a1a4U4d2brown/0,99dark/black0,99/0,86dark/0,641100% EU100% EU

Those are crazy make-up and it was only a thousand years ago.

Johane Derite
04-04-19, 12:58
I1, I2a, J1 & J2a, huns, wow

markod
04-04-19, 13:28
What are the odds that the Q1a2 Hun individual was Dark Skinned, really?

Also this individual...

K2/51N1a1a1a1a4U4d2brown/0,99dark/black0,99/0,86dark/0,641100% EU100% EU

Those are crazy make-up and it was only a thousand years ago.

Not sure, I generally think it's possible that these are recent arrivers from the steppe who haven't been affected by the shift towards depigmentation seen in Europe. K2/51 however is likely an Avar in a low status grave. Looks like they were subdued. The idea of Magyars as a small conquering elite seems to have been wrong.

The extremely high status of I2a Magyars might explain how it became dominant among some Slavs.

K2/52 in the flesh: https://www.facebook.com/pg/The-Eastern-Trader-846220332129930/photos/?tab=album&album_id=894613337290629

Aspurg
04-04-19, 13:55
V13 stronk!!!
In Conqueror period samples one V13+ and one predicted V13+ were found.:smile:

But in the Early Avar period
MM/227 and DK/701 are R-Z94+, predicted Z2124 under which is S23592 and ofc S10438 found in Bashkir Yurmati.

Leader of Avar siege of Constantinople in 626 was Ermitz (Ermi-Karmin - Karmirhyon - the Red Huns)

And in the Middle late Avar period
SzK/239 E1b1b1a1b1a V13+.. Székkutas-Kápolnadülő :smile:

Though on rudimentary autosomal plot he's EU, the anthropological analysis says:
239 fragmented skull with Mongolid features

Maybe he's of a certain clan of Ermi? With something under E-Z17107, as my cousins on the Balkans match the spread of Ermi/Yarmen onomastical traces, and ofc two R-S10438 are found in Bulgaria and Macedonia, as is one found in Zagreb (indicating Avar connection again).:cool-v:

markod
04-04-19, 13:59
V13 stronk!!!
In Conqueror period samples one V13+ and one predicted V13+ were found.:smile:

But in the Early Avar period
MM/227 and DK/701 are R-Z94+, predicted Z2124 under which is S23592 and ofc S10438 found in Bashkir Yurmati.

Leader of Avar siege of Constantinople in 626 was Ermitz (Ermi-Karmin - Karmirhyon - the Red Huns)

And in the Middle late Avar period
SzK/239 E1b1b1a1b1a V13+.. Székkutas-Kápolnadülő :smile:

Though on rudimentary autosomal plot he's EU, the anthropological analysis says:
239 fragmented skull with Mongolid features

Maybe he's of a certain clan of Ermi? With something under E-Z17107, as my cousins on the Balkans match the spread of Ermi/Yarmen onomastical traces, and ofc two R-S10438 are found in Bulgaria and Macedonia, as is one found in Zagreb (indicating Avar connection again).:cool-v:




Balkan/Germanic/Avar Y-DNA seems to be associated with low status in the Magyar sample - probably indigenous. I2a/R1a were the big guys.

Same for the Avar sample. Eastern Y-DNA is associated with status.

Tomenable
04-04-19, 14:03
Looks like 1/3 of the Early Magyar men were of Slavic origin, 10/29 (34,5%) of Y-DNA is Slavic R1a-CTS1211 and I2a(xS17250).

Some excerpts:

"The West Eurasian R1a1a1b1a2b-CTS1211 subclade of R1a is most frequent in Eastern Europe especially among Slavic people. This Hg was detected just in the Conqueror group (K2/18, K2/41 and K1/10). Though CTS1211 was not covered in K2/36 but it may also belong to this sub-branch of Z283."

Avar subjects:

"This Avar population buried the deceased in catacomb graves, following Eastern European traditions. One sample in our dataset (HC9) comes from this population, and both his mtDNA (T1a1b) and Y chromosome (R1a) support Eastern European connections."

Autosomal DNA:

"All Hun age individuals revealed admixture derived from European and East Asian ancestors, while 8/15 Avar age individuals showed predominantly East Asian origin with both methods, 4 individuals were definitely European, while two showed evidence of admixture. The KFP/31 sample gave contradicting results due to low coverage. Conqueror samples from the Magyarhomorog (MH) and Sárrétudvari (SH) cemeteries showed mostly European ancestry in agreement with their phenotypes and Y Hg-s, though MLR detected a significant east Asian ancestry component and the SH/103 woman was classified East Asian despite her blond hair. The Karos (K) and Kenézlő(KEF) populations were profoundly admixed, comprising individuals of purely East Asian, European and mixed origin in nearly identical proportions, again in agreement with results obtained from uniparental and phenotypic markers."

Conqueror period:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/04/03/597997.full.pdf

R1a-CTS1211
Karos I/10
Karos II/36
Karos II/41
Karos II/18

I2a(xS17250)
Karos II/16
Karos II/52
Karos III/1
Magyarhomorog/15
Magyarhomorog/16
Magyarhomorog/9

Phenotypes, pigmentation (from Table 2. and Table 3. in the study):

https://i.imgur.com/33sxBM1.png

Summary of anthropological data:

https://i.imgur.com/7ekYhRm.png
https://i.imgur.com/5GxPXJA.png

Y-DNA haplogroups by time period (from Table 1. in the study):

There is some R1b-U106 as well:

https://i.imgur.com/w51dAVN.png

Tomenable
04-04-19, 14:18
I don't know why do the authors claim that I2a is Cucuteni-Trypillian?

All of the Cucuteni-Trypillian samples so far were G2a and E, not I2a:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#6/49.449/30.072

I1926 Trypillian Ukraine
mtDNA: H5a
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a

I1927 Trypillian Ukraine
mtDNA: H1b
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a1

I2110 Trypillian Ukraine
mtDNA: T2b
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a

Joey37
04-04-19, 14:20
Hmm, seems to be a lot of N1a in the conquering period, fitting with the Uralic origin...seems to lend credence to my theory that modern Hungarians are very much Magyarized Germans and Slavs due to the decimations of the Pannonian populations during the Mongol invasions and later the Ottoman invasions.

Tomenable
04-04-19, 14:22
Hmm, seems to be a lot of N1a in the conquering period, fitting with the Uralic origin...seems to lend credence to my theory that modern Hungarians are very much Magyarized Germans and Slavs due to the decimations of the Pannonian populations during the Mongol invasions and later the Ottoman invasions.

I don't know, considering there was a lot of R1a / I2a and R1b-U106 / I1 already in the Conqueror period.

See the tables posted above, there was R1b-U106 and I1 long before any Medieval German "Ostsiedlung".

Guess you mean Germanic tribes in general, not just Germans. But some of that U106 was Asian-admixed.

Aspurg
04-04-19, 14:34
Balkan/Germanic/Avar Y-DNA seems to be associated with low status in the Magyar sample - probably indigenous. I2a/R1a were the big guys.

Might be, haven't looked at them closely yet.



Same for the Avar sample. Eastern Y-DNA is associated with status.

It is still a legit Avar burial (with horse harness) with a much higher status than any numerous non-Avar people around.:smile:

The glorious Khagan was N1a1a.. Good to see one likely G-L293..

markod
04-04-19, 14:48
Hmm, seems to be a lot of N1a in the conquering period, fitting with the Uralic origin...seems to lend credence to my theory that modern Hungarians are very much Magyarized Germans and Slavs due to the decimations of the Pannonian populations during the Mongol invasions and later the Ottoman invasions.

How did you come to this conclusion? The richest graves are I2a.

Regio X
04-04-19, 16:59
I don't know why do the authors claim that I2a is Cucuteni-Trypillian?

All of the Cucuteni-Trypillian samples so far were G2a and E, not I2a:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#6/49.449/30.072

I1926 Trypillian Ukraine
mtDNA: H5a
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a

I1927 Trypillian Ukraine
mtDNA: H1b
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a1

I2110 Trypillian Ukraine
mtDNA: T2b
Y-DNA: G2a2b2aNeither do I.

Btw, AFAIK, I1927 (the Trypillia outlier), for some reason I don't know, was eliminated from the table in the original study.
We have now:
I1926 G2a2b2a / H5a
I2110 G2a2b2a / T2b
I2111 G2a / HV
I3151 E / U8b1b

halfalp
04-04-19, 17:15
Not sure, I generally think it's possible that these are recent arrivers from the steppe who haven't been affected by the shift towards depigmentation seen in Europe. K2/51 however is likely an Avar in a low status grave. Looks like they were subdued. The idea of Magyars as a small conquering elite seems to have been wrong.

The extremely high status of I2a Magyars might explain how it became dominant among some Slavs.

K2/52 in the flesh: https://www.facebook.com/pg/The-Eastern-Trader-846220332129930/photos/?tab=album&album_id=894613337290629

They say their skin was Dark, and Steppe had already the snp's found in modern europeans 3000 prior of those samples. Something dont match.

Angela
04-04-19, 18:05
They say their skin was Dark, and Steppe had already the snp's found in modern europeans 3000 prior of those samples. Something dont match.

No, not if by steppe you mean Yamnaya and Catacomb. They were probably darker than any modern Europeans. Re-read the Mathiesen and particularly the Sandra Wilde paper.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3977302/

If you're talking about the Andronovo types, they, as Markod indicated, probably picked up the lighter pigmentation in eastern Europe.

Plus, the Avars are mostly East Asian, and the Huns Eurasians. They're not going to have all of the European specific alleles for de-pigmentation. It's unclear whether East Asians at that time had high levels of their own different skin pigmentation snp.

Milan.M
04-04-19, 18:34
The leader of the Hungarian conquerors was I2a L621 (S17250) associated with Slavs mostly south,also there is no any Slavic haplogroups among Avars,and so much connection between Avars and Sclaveni was told by historians.

Angela
04-04-19, 19:35
It's associated today with southern Slavs because the more northern Slavs brought it to the southern Balkans.

The original bearers of it were probably from Cucteni-Tripolye.

The yDna doesn't necessarily tell you the autosomal signature.

halfalp
04-04-19, 20:01
No, not if by steppe you mean Yamnaya and Catacomb. They were probably darker than any modern Europeans. Re-read the Mathiesen and particularly the Sandra Wilde paper.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3977302/

If you're talking about the Andronovo types, they, as Markod indicated, probably picked up the lighter pigmentation in eastern Europe.

Plus, the Avars are mostly East Asian, and the Huns Eurasians. They're not going to have all of the European specific alleles for de-pigmentation. It's unclear whether East Asians at that time had high levels of their own different skin pigmentation snp.

No but i can clearly imagine Yamnaya people being half-Olive skin that tan a lot in the summer. But when i read " Dark Skin ", my mind goes with Dark Skin. So i'm question what does Dark Skin mean at this point? It was only 1'200 years ago, Europe was probably not that different as right now. So what in a modern perspective could those " Dark Skin " be? East Asians are not Dark Skinned, and if we consider Native Americans as Dark Skinned, this is a huge change on the perception. Knowing a lot of East Asians and Native Americans do have Pheomelanin, such as Natives Reddish Cheeks. The Sandra Wilde paper is too old at this point, we need modern humans with snps that match the ones of ancient types, to make us a phenotype idea of how it evolves and what it looks like from a modern perspective. Most of their samples got " Intermediate " wich for me sounds like Olive Skin, something very rarely seen in Europe nowadays, with only a minority of individuals from italy or iberia. Does it sounds right that the skin of central european only a thousand years ago would look like a northern indian? I think this study shows me that what geneticians considered genes or more specifically SNPS for Dark or Light skin are not quite the exact synergy wich gives Light skin in facts.

hrvat22
04-04-19, 20:27
The leader of the Hungarian conquerors was I2a L621 (S17250) associated with Slavs mostly south,also there is no any Slavic haplogroups among Avars,and so much connection between Avars and Sclaveni was told by historians.

As far as I know it is not S17250 so we do not know younger subbranch of these samples.

Ygorcs
04-04-19, 21:34
Some things I find worth discussing considering this and the other studies about Huns and Hungarian conquerors:

1) Don't you find it a bit strange that these powerful peoples, mainly Huns and Avars, who apparently migrated en masse left such a tiny, almost nonexistant impact in the Y-DNA distribution of Eastern Europe, especially the Carpathian basin? Were they perhaps soooooo warlike and dedicated to warfare that that ended up becoming a huge reproductive/selective disadvantage for them and their lineages dwindled more and more along the time due to a much higher than average young death of their males? I assume that, given the nature of their conquest, there were many more males than females, so the negligible Mt-DNA impact could be explained that way even if the females were not dedicated to war. Or is it just that the subsequent "local" waves of conquest and expansion, like that of Slavs and Germans, wiped out physically most of the Avar and Hun descendants?

2) It's very nice to see ancient DNA confirming what linguists and historians had already assumed as likely, i.e. the connection between Huns and the Xiongnu. However, I was really convinced by the linguistics paper I have read about the Xiongnu having originally a Yeniseian language at least as their main lingua franca, considering the few evidences provided by loanwards and transcriptions of "Xiongnu language" in ancient Chinese sources, as well as possible borrowings in Turkic and Mongolic languages that can be reasonably explained via Yeniseian roots. Therefore, that would mean that, as it also happened later (for example, the way Turkic Kazkahs prevailed during the Mongol rule), a subset of the Xiongnu tribal confederation was probably Turkic and took advantage of the Xiongnu expansion and power to eventually establish its own Turkic-centered confederations (or at least confederations using Turkic as their official lingua franca), which would send waves after waves of conquering armies and accompanying migrants from the Late Antiquity to the High Middle Ages. This "flexible" and "assimilationist" ethnogenesis would also perfectly explain why the Turkic peoples are so varied genetically (some of them overwhelmingly West Asian, others overwhelmingly Northeastern European, others overwhelmingly Northeastern Asian and so on). (Personally I believe that the Huns and Avars represent the arrival of Oghur Turkic people, the only remnants of which today are the Chuvash - but in the past there were the Bulgars, Khazars and maybe the Cumans -, because only much later we do see strong evidences of Oghuz Turks arriving in Europe)

3) The Huns and Avars, being much earlier than the Hungarians, are possibly representative of the very first, still quite unmixed new waves of expansion from the Eurasian steppe, at least west of the Altai. Therefore, they could perhaps be related to the actual source of the Turkic languages (or at least of their expansion) before the formation of huge tribal confederations and concomitant widespread admixture from all sides that would result in much more "West Eurasian-like" Turkic samples in the later medieval era. Hungarians might thus represent a much later period when such big, flexible, readly assembled and disintegrated multiethnic confederations, prone to rapid language shift, too, had become much more "natural" in the steppe landscape, and with the East-West encounter much more consolidated, with a much more mixed population.

Milan.M
04-04-19, 21:39
It's associated today with southern Slavs because the more northern Slavs brought it to the southern Balkans.

The original bearers of it were probably from Cucteni-Tripolye.

The yDna doesn't necessarily tell you the autosomal signature.
More northern stay in the north,those that came are in the south.The "original" homeland of this haplogroup from where it spread is yet debated.Cucuteni-tripolye is somewhere in the middle
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Cucuteni-Tripol%27ye_Culture_Outline_Map.png/240px-Cucuteni-Tripol%27ye_Culture_Outline_Map.png
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Milan.M
04-04-19, 21:40
As far as I know it is not S17250 so we do not know younger subbranch of these samples.
You have it in the results it is S17250

All of the samples under I2a L621 are S17250 as far i can see.

hrvat22
04-04-19, 22:06
You have it in the results it is S17250

All of the samples under I2a L621 are S17250 as far i can see.

Comment on the Serbian portal Poreklo is that S17250 is negative and in Croatian that have x which means it's not that branch.

Megalophias
04-04-19, 22:37
Avar Y-DNA is Turkic-Siberian or Eskimo-Chukchi - I'm guessing the former.
Yes, in the paper with Y STRs the Avar N clustered with Buryats, so it'll be Turko-Mongolic N-F4205. ("Genetic insights into the social organization of the Avar period elite in the 7th century AD Carpathian Basin"). In that paper the elite Avars had a very high proportion of East Asian mtDNA even though it was several generations after their arrival. Maybe the elite was relatively endogamous, hence not having that high a genetic impact on the general population?

Apparently there was an Old Russian phrase "they perished like the Avars" meaning "vanished without a trace". Seems apt.

The Conqueror N was N-M2019 and N-Z1936(xL1034). The former has a subclade N-PH1612 containing 2 Hungarians on Y Full.

Atlantische
04-04-19, 22:38
All those L621 samples are xS17250, which means that they are negative on it. They have chosen S17250 probably because it's most common branch of CTS10228>Y3120 (they maybe thinked that if there are L621+ samples then they must be Y3120+, so because we have limited number of SNP-s it's better to analyze S17250). I just guess that's the reason.

The reason why there are no more + and - snp's for other hg's too is because ''We selected 168 phylogenetically informative Y chromosome SNP-s 14 defining all major Hg-s and themost frequent Eurasian sub-Hg-s''. So, we have to wait for BAM files been available and to some good guys analyze it.

Aspurg
04-04-19, 23:30
Balkan/Germanic/Avar Y-DNA seems to be associated with low status in the Magyar sample - probably indigenous. I2a/R1a were the big guys.

Same for the Avar sample. Eastern Y-DNA is associated with status.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKxuAaQBnQU

The Avar E-V13+ burial is in no way of "lower status", it had silver plate belt (one of only two in the site, most had bronze plate belts), just because the information on the particular burial in this short paper is very low doesn't mean that it doesn't exist elsewhere..

Angela
05-04-19, 00:52
See:
https://www.academia.edu/34061532/Byzantine-Avar_Relations_After_626_and_the_Possible_Channels _of_Communication

Very interesting paper.

Dema
05-04-19, 01:48
This is one study where you dont want your ancient DNA to be found, unless you are Aspurg : P

Jokes aside, i am really amazed with quality and new horizonts this study opened, it really interprets one of really important North Balkan, Balkan but also European part of history
Also i see that they uploaded BAM files and we will probably manage to get information about deeper clades.
This is one very very very large, beautiful and important study!

bained
05-04-19, 02:05
So I2a1 is not a slavic marker. It was spread by Magyars, Bulgars, White Croats and other steppe people. No more turkic theories and slavs out of marshes theories, nice.

Dema
05-04-19, 03:07
Regarding Slavic I2a, researchers of this study say the following:

"Hg I2a1a2b-L621 was present in 5 Conqueror samples, and a 6th sample form Magyarhomorog (MH/9)most likely also belongs here, as MH/9 is a likely kin of MH/16 (see below). This Hg of European origin is mostprominent in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, especially among Slavic speaking groups. It might have been amajor lineage of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture and it was present in the Baden culture of the CalcholiticCarpathian Basin."


As we can see there is no Slavic I2a1 haplogroup in Hun, early Avar and mid to late Avar samples. But it appears in Hungarian conqueror samples but also with few looks like joined minority haplogroups that were probably picked up somewhere on their way like J1, J2a, R1b, I1, and so on.


Slavic marker I2a was most certainly spread with early 7 century arriving Slavs rather then with any of these groups analysed in this study. Even tho with later arrival of Hungarians, there was again brought for sure a nice portion of Slavic groups. I would conclude that Hungarians used Slavs pratially as their allies and warriors in this process but also few other picked up HGs like mentioned above.

Regarding E1b-v13 haplogroup, as we can see its none existent in Early or Mid Huno-Avar period but it appears in one sample in late period and in one sample in Hungarian conquer period (opposing sides), it would be safe to assume that both samples were recruits into late Avar but also Conqueror sides, probably of Balkan origin.

Dema
05-04-19, 03:11
Researches of this study say this bout E1b-v13, and i agree with them, only that i believe and there are overwhelming facts that E-v13 originated for sure in Europe and not Middle East lol, E-L618 was probably Middle East/N Africa born but even he emigrated to Europe pretty early on in Neolithic as it was found there already multiple times in ancient DNA.

Only 4800 years TMRCA part of E-v13 then later on spread in IE BA, before that it was smaller European population.


"The mediterranean haplogroup E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 was detected in an Avar (SzK/239) and a Conqueror (K2/6) sample, while this marker was not covered in another sample (K1/13, E1b1b- M215). This Hg originated in the Middle East and migrated to the Balkans and Western Asia during the Bronze Age."

Trojet
05-04-19, 04:18
This is one study where you dont want your ancient DNA to be found, unless you are Aspurg : P

:laughing:

Don't mess with Aspurg : p

bained
05-04-19, 05:17
So the leader is I2a1, all except one have dark eyes/hair, all buried with Magyar customs and horses and somehow they are slavs. Funny.

Dema
05-04-19, 05:41
So the leader is I2a1, all except one have dark eyes/hair, all buried with Magyar customs and horses and somehow they are slavs. Funny.


Its not like that, and it was already said in first page that Slavic HGs among Hungarian conquerors can be valuated at around 30%.

Furthermore read this:


The genetic profile of the Avar and Conqueror leader groups seems considerably different, as latter groupis distinguished by the significant presence of European Hg-s; I2a1a2b-L621, R1b1a1b1a1a1-U106 and theFinno-Permic N1a1a1a1a2-Z1936 branch. Their Siberian N1a1a1a1a4 subclade also points at different sourcepopulations among ancestors of Yakuts, Evenks and Evens. Nevertheless the east Eurasian R1a subclade,R1a1a1b2a-Z94 seems to be a common element of the Hun, Avar and Conqueror elite. In contrast to Avars, allthree Hun lineages have paralleles among the Conquerors, but strong inferences cannot be drawn due to smallsample size.It is generally accepted that the Hungarian language was brought to the Carpathian Basin by theConquerors. Uralic speaking populations are characterized by a high frequency of Y-Hg N, which have often beeninterpreted as a genetic signal of shared ancestry. Indeed, recently a distinct shared ancestry component of likelySiberian origin was identified at the genomic level in these populations, modern Hungarians being a puzzlingexception36. The Conqueror elite had a significant proportion of N Hgs, 7% of them carrying N1a1a1a1a4-M2118and 10% N1a1a1a1a2-Z1936, both of which are present in Ugric speaking Khantys and Mansis 23. At the sametime none of the examined Conquerors belonged to the L1034 subclade of Z1936, while all of the Khanty Z1936lineages reported in 37 proved to be L1034 which has not been tested in the 23 study. Population genetic data ratherposition the Conqueror elite among Turkic groups, Bashkirs and Volga Tatars, in agreement with contemporaryIt is made available under a CC-BY-NC-ND 4.0 International license.was not peer-reviewed) is the author/funder, who has granted bioRxiv a license to display the preprint in perpetuity.bioRxiv preprint first posted online Apr. 3, 2019; doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1101/597997. The copyright holder for this preprint (which14historical accounts which denominated the Conquerors as “Turks”38. This does not exclude the possibility that theHungarian language could also have been present in the obviously very heterogeneous, probably multiethnicConqueror tribal alliance.


So i can agree with this, as it was obviously a European alliance of incomers from Carpathian Basin against more Asian like Huno-Avars. Furthermore Slavs were for sure under Hungarian control, no matter that one of leaders was of Slavic origin. Hungarian language prevailing rather then Slavic proves this. The leaders were actually these that originally brought Hungarian language and i guess they would be N1a1a1a1a2 samples that fit into Finno-Ugric branches and possibly one N1a1a1a1a4 sample.


Finno-Ugric language distribution so some things would be clearer:



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Lenguas_finougrias.png

hrvat22
05-04-19, 07:23
So the leader is I2a1, all except one have dark eyes/hair, all buried with Magyar customs and horses and somehow they are slavs. Funny.

In De Administrando Imperio it is written that
Other Croatians remained to Francia(Franks) and are now called White Croats, and they have their own prince, they are subject to Oton, great king of Francia, or Saxony (Saksias), and they are not baptized, they mutually married with Turks(Hungarians) and they are friends with them.

White Croats certainly mix with Hungarians but it's interesting that branch in that graves are probably former Dinaric north branches or some subclade in I-Y3120 branch.

https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/

Makes sense because the mass of people went to the Balkans and they took I-S17250 subclade with them but considering that Croats have little of branch I-Y3120 the question is which direction of migration is in 10. century to Hungary and from where.

It might be peoples with branch I-Y4460 which would come from the east of Carpathians from direction of Ukraine and if we look at the present situation (YFull) then it would not have been White Croatians because these people(I-Y4460) migrate earlier(2200 ybp) from south Poland to Ukraine and later in the 10. century they return or coming to Hungary.

https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y4460/

The R1a in that graves is a branch which and Croatians has but which subbranch specifically we do not know so we can not assume direction of that migration.

Aspurg
05-04-19, 12:59
Regarding E1b-v13 haplogroup, as we can see its none existent in Early or Mid Huno-Avar period but it appears in one sample in late period and in one sample in Hungarian conquer period (opposing sides),

The burial is dated to Mid-Late Avar period. More precisely second half or 3rd quarter of 7th century.. So it is not from the late Avar period (720+) but the Mid period.. That he was a local recruit is a possibility but there are few good reasons why a non-indigenous Eastern V13 might be expected in an Avar burial...

Besides any find is precious there are hundreds of potential samples to be taken.. In any case I'll have more insight about his likely earlier whereabouts..



it would be safe to assume that both samples were recruits into late Avar but also Conqueror sides, probably of Balkan origin.

E-V13 has been present in Carpathian basin for thousands of years, why should a local V13 be of "Balkan" origin.. Dacians are not geographically "Balkan". Balkan this, Balkan that, Balkan, Balkan... Balkan is an unauthentic term anyway derived from the Ottoman Turkish, so taking so much pride in this term is self-defeating is it not..:bored:

Tomenable
05-04-19, 13:43
The leader of the Hungarian conquerors was I2a L621 (S17250) associated with Slavs mostly southI2a-L621 is very common among Belarusians (especially Southern), Western Russians and Ukrainians.

These are hardly "south" Slavs. Check my old thread:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31147-I2a-Din-distribution-among-East-Slavs


The original bearers of it were probably from Cucteni-Tripolye.

Not really, the Cucuteni-Trypolye had typical Neolithic haplogroups such as G2a and E1b.

Mesolithic Y lineages probably survived further north - in Pripet Marshes - or further east.

Proto-Slavic homeland was probably this archaeological culture (I added locations of modern cities in this region):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_culture

https://i.imgur.com/UtImtwe.png

https://i.imgur.com/DzKzPSk.png


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byONEV6i0VI

Tomenable
05-04-19, 13:49
slavs out of marshes theories

Kiev Culture's territory was actually just to the east of Pinsk Marshes.

The marshes themselves were either sparsely populated or uninhabited, but most likely under Slavic control.

And probably Early Slavs used those areas for fishing, hunting, etc.

This is how the landscape in this region looks like (it could not support all of the large Proto-Slavic population):

https://wildlife.by/upload/medialibrary/262/262cc7003ec2284376a351c73b93ebbb.jpg

https://wildlife.by/upload/medialibrary/758/7580f0d3283ef8a8ec4be75643adada1.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkn6zX4ymZY

bicicleur
05-04-19, 14:08
the Slavic I2a marker is Y3120, a subclade of L621 with TMRCA 2.2 ka
these L621 are Slavic, that is the most parsimonious guess

bigsnake49
05-04-19, 20:41
See:
https://www.academia.edu/34061532/Byzantine-Avar_Relations_After_626_and_the_Possible_Channels _of_Communication

Very interesting paper.

Very interesting indeed! I am still amazed that the Byzantine Empire lasted 1000+ years, what with all the palace intrigue, the poisonings, the army uprisings not to mention all the invaders.

kuzmosi
05-04-19, 21:53
At first: The horseman tribe-alliances from the steppe never came from a single root. The whole alliance was wearing the name of the core tribe or clan. The leading layer of the joined and defeated peoples identified themselves with the core. After the hun core crossed the Volga and defeat the alans, the alans riding with the huns against the eastern germans. Not only ostrogoths, there were the rugians, heruls, skirii, gepids, quadii too. After defeating Ermanarik, these peoples became the most loyal allies of the huns. Most than half of the huns army were germanic. They called Attila the last great Hun leader. It is a german name, not a hun. In the Era of the Hunnic Empire, the leaders of the vassal tribes called themselves huns. So among the hun elite, were so many eastern germanic and eastern european Y haplogroup.

Avars. Original form in Byzantian annales: Uarchonites. (Old hungarian name of the avars: varkun or várkony) It was a mixed nation from the beginning. Uars from Inner Asia and Chons (huns, heftalites?) from Central Asia. In the Avar Khaganate, if a slavic or gepid, or a bolgarian turkish chief got a belt, he became avar. He and his offspring. They dressed and buried like the avars.

Magyars. It was originally just only one tribe's name from the conquering seven(or ten). These tribes had a blood contract with each other, before the campaign. Why? To become brothers. Why? Because they were not related to each other. They were completely different roots. There were also Finnugrian, Central-Asian and eastern-european bloodlines among them. Like today. There are certainly many later slavic, germanic and romanian elements merged with the hungarians, but the core remaining the IX. century population descendants. If not, how can be exist in today a non indo-european language as an island in the middle of the indo-european ocean? So I'm sure, among the conquering magyars were hun fragments, and germans (remaining fragments from the steppe and varangians from Scandinavia), and eastern slavs and God knows what else.

My results. I have identified the Y haplogroup of 15 families. 11 my own ancestors and 4 my wife ancestors. They all came from the northeastern part of old Hungary. (Szabolcs, Szatmár, Zemplén, Sáros, Szepes and Gömör county) Today: Szabolcs-Szatmar county in Hungary, Satu Mare county in Romania, Presov and Kosice region in Eastern Slovakia. The turkish armies has never been to this area, and the mongolian destruction was not as large as in the middle of the country (Alföld). So the results:
1.) E1b1b-V13-CTS9320-A19238. family name: Küzmös. Origin of the name: unknown, surely non-hungarian
2.) E1b1b-V13-Z5018 (not completed yet). f.n: Szánthó. hungarian name
3.) I1-L22-FGC14412* fn: Szilágyi, hungarian name
4.) I2a-L621-A1328* fn: Tóth - hungarian name, but it means in the old hungarian language: slavic man
5.) I2a-L621-Y3118* fn: Kiss - hungarian name
6.) I2a-L621-Y3118 (not completed yet). fn: Molnár -hungarian name
7.) Q-L330-BZ427 fn: Csehely, origin of the name: unknown, in hungarian it means nothing. According to Maciamo, this bloodline is hunnic. But I think: alan.
8.) R1b-U106-DF98-S22116 fn: Dobi, hungarian name
9.) R1b-U106-L48-S21728 (not completed yet) fn: Varga, hungarian name
10.) R1b-U152-Z49-S8172* fn: Béres, hungarian name
11.) R1a-L664-S2866* fn: Simon, hungarian name
12.) R1a-M458-YP415 fn: Kalenyák (originally Kalinyak) slavic name, probably rusin.
13.) R1a-CTS1211-YP4706 fn: Küzmös, origin of the name unknown.
14.) R1a-CTS1211-YP1701* fn: Petruska, slavic name, rusin or slovakian
15.) R1a-CTS1211-YP234* fn: Király, hungarian name

Just 2/15 bear slavic name, and these two from my ancestors has slavic Y DNA. They will surely melt later.

Among the hungarians the family names were formed in the 1400s. So the other 13/15 (including the other slavic, germanic, celtic Y chr bearers) were hungarians before the ottoman wars.

Dibran
06-04-19, 15:04
Balkan/Germanic/Avar Y-DNA seems to be associated with low status in the Magyar sample - probably indigenous. I2a/R1a were the big guys.

Same for the Avar sample. Eastern Y-DNA is associated with status.

Yup. People like to still ignore it though. There’s a shotgun call for M458 in supplementary data, though idk if it was a commoner or elite.

Tutkun Arnaut
06-04-19, 16:09
Very interesting indeed! I am still amazed that the Byzantine Empire lasted 1000+ years, what with all the palace intrigue, the poisonings, the army uprisings not to mention all the invaders.
Byzantine was way of thinking, it was not a new beginning. It was not kept by force most of its existence! Mostly reflected the Roman traditions of doing things. Eastern Christianity was the propaganda of the time and it was not easy to change the habits of populations no mater who was running the business. Had Ottomans not interrupted its existence probably we would have emerged in a single state.

Milan.M
06-04-19, 18:13
I2a-L621 is very common among Belarusians (especially Southern), Western Russians and Ukrainians.

These are hardly "south" Slavs. Check my old thread:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31147-I2a-Din-distribution-among-East-Slavs



Not really, the Cucuteni-Trypolye had typical Neolithic haplogroups such as G2a and E1b.

Mesolithic Y lineages probably survived further north - in Pripet Marshes - or further east.

Proto-Slavic homeland was probably this archaeological culture (I added locations of modern cities in this region):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_culture

https://i.imgur.com/UtImtwe.png

https://i.imgur.com/DzKzPSk.png


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byONEV6i0VI
Here it is
https://i.imgur.com/YIV0TQD.jpg


It's highest diversity is probably Carpathians-Dnieper/

Utevska (2017) found the haplogroups STR haplotypes have the highest diversity in Ukraine, with ancestral STR marker result "DYS448=20" comprising "Dnieper-Carpathian" cluster.
Highest diversity does not overlap with Kiev culture that much but more with Chernyakov on that map.

The areas you mentioned was theory held by Ken Nordvedt.
Also among West Slavs Poland for example it's percentage are much smaller.

kuzmosi
06-04-19, 19:30
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/415760v2

Hmmm...according this, my Q-BZ427 ancestorswere direct paternal line descendants of the Great Khagan Bayan? I have the contact the authors.
The BigY700 test from this bloodline finished just two weeks ago. The YFULL analysis project has not been completed yet.

According the annales from Byzantine, Bayan had many children....hmmmmm (again)......

Vlad82
07-04-19, 00:28
Regarding Slavic I2a, researchers of this study say the following:

"Hg I2a1a2b-L621 was present in 5 Conqueror samples, and a 6th sample form Magyarhomorog (MH/9)most likely also belongs here, as MH/9 is a likely kin of MH/16 (see below). This Hg of European origin is mostprominent in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, especially among Slavic speaking groups. It might have been amajor lineage of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture and it was present in the Baden culture of the CalcholiticCarpathian Basin."


As we can see there is no Slavic I2a1 haplogroup in Hun, early Avar and mid to late Avar samples. But it appears in Hungarian conqueror samples but also with few looks like joined minority haplogroups that were probably picked up somewhere on their way like J1, J2a, R1b, I1, and so on.


Slavic marker I2a was most certainly spread with early 7 century arriving Slavs rather then with any of these groups analysed in this study. Even tho with later arrival of Hungarians, there was again brought for sure a nice portion of Slavic groups. I would conclude that Hungarians used Slavs pratially as their allies and warriors in this process but also few other picked up HGs like mentioned above.

Regarding E1b-v13 haplogroup, as we can see its none existent in Early or Mid Huno-Avar period but it appears in one sample in late period and in one sample in Hungarian conquer period (opposing sides), it would be safe to assume that both samples were recruits into late Avar but also Conqueror sides, probably of Balkan origin.

The first problem of finding Slavs among Huns and Avars is that they did not test commoners from that period.
The second is explained in the paperwork referenced in the paper at the end:
Certainly, there were Slavs among the peoples inhabiting the Central Danubian Basin during Avar times. There are several obstacles that block the way of an anthropological approach to this problem. The most significant has been the lack of skeletal finds from that period. In the 6th-8th centuries Slavic peoples still cremated their dead. They might have lived in regions neighbouring those inhabited by the Avars, but they left no burial sites with skeletal material and this made them once and for all “invisible” for anthropological research. Our only remaining choice is to proceed with indirect methods. Anthropology produced few results in the analysis of the Slav lineage of Hungarian ethnogenesis yet (Bottyán 1975)
Link (https://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/Acta%20HP/44-87.pdf)

Anyway, maybe a bit strange explanation by the author of the study on the link, because there is an anthropological study of AvaroSlavs and Croats that found differences between Slavs west and east of Danube in Pannonian Basin. Sedov (Russian archaeologist) also wrote that AvaroSlavs did not use cremation.

Ordas
08-04-19, 19:59
Yes, in the paper with Y STRs the Avar N clustered with Buryats, so it'll be Turko-Mongolic N-F4205. ("Genetic insights into the social organization of the Avar period elite in the 7th century AD Carpathian Basin"). In that paper the elite Avars had a very high proportion of East Asian mtDNA even though it was several generations after their arrival. Maybe the elite was relatively endogamous, hence not having that high a genetic impact on the general population?

Apparently there was an Old Russian phrase "they perished like the Avars" meaning "vanished without a trace". Seems apt.

The Conqueror N was N-M2019 and N-Z1936(xL1034). The former has a subclade N-PH1612 containing 2 Hungarians on Y Full.Hehe, I'm one of them ;)


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kuzmosi
08-04-19, 20:23
Dear Földi!

YF18836?

Ordas
08-04-19, 22:28
Dear Földi!

YF18836?Yep

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Ordas
08-04-19, 23:28
Not sure, I generally think it's possible that these are recent arrivers from the steppe who haven't been affected by the shift towards depigmentation seen in Europe. K2/51 however is likely an Avar in a low status grave. Looks like they were subdued. The idea of Magyars as a small conquering elite seems to have been wrong.

The extremely high status of I2a Magyars might explain how it became dominant among some Slavs.

K2/52 in the flesh: https://www.facebook.com/pg/The-Eastern-Trader-846220332129930/photos/?tab=album&album_id=894613337290629Why do you think K2/51(N1a1a1a1a4) was an Avar? The Avar N1a1a1 subclade is different from this one. This is typical for Hungarian Conquerors and is absent among the Avars as far as I know.

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JajarBingan
16-04-19, 23:25
Some things I find worth discussing considering this and the other studies about Huns and Hungarian conquerors:

1) Don't you find it a bit strange that these powerful peoples, mainly Huns and Avars, who apparently migrated en masse left such a tiny, almost nonexistant impact in the Y-DNA distribution of Eastern Europe, especially the Carpathian basin?

Did they though? At least in aDNA terms the impact of whoever brought East Asian admixture is kind of visible.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6722-Romanian-23andme

Zulca
22-06-19, 21:21
Y markers from Neparáczki at al
European Hun markers : R1b u106 is Germanic, Q1a is Xiongnu, R1a Z 2124 is Scythian, L is Indian Hun (not by Neparáczki)
Early Avar markers: more than 50% Siberian n1a1a's subclades, c2 east asian, g2a caucasian, I1 skandinavian, 2 R1a z2124 Scythian
middle avar period: N1a1a and subclade is siberian, E v13 is mediterranean-balkanic-middle eastern, c2 east asian
Hungarian period: Árpád dinasty R1a z2123 (srubneya scythian, bronze aged carpathian of Szólád) , R1a z2124 (2), Scythian, G2a2b neolitic caucasus, europe, E v13 (2) balkan, middle east, J1 (1) mmiddle east, Sarmatian, r1a cts1112 (5)corded ware, r1b u106 (4) germanic, r1b u152 celtic (1), r1b l23 (1) yamnaya, east afanasevo, xiongnu, I2a1a2b cucuteni, baden (6), j2a1a middle eastern (1), n1a m2002 siberian (2), n1a z1936 finnic (3), I1 skandi (1), q1a (okunevo, xiongnu)
the common hun, avar, magyar marker : r1a z2124 scythian(srubna, sintastha)