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Salento
15-05-20, 07:19
All the 3 karsdorf T samples and 2 bulgarians ones are all T1a1 and have the same snp......all are related, all kin, even though there might be a gap of hundred or so years

... eventually the Karsdorf’s turned into Barbarians, and R850 Grandchildren into Civilized Romans ! lol

... cool :)

torzio
15-05-20, 07:31
... eventually the Karsdorf’s turned into Barbarians, and R850 Grandchildren into Civilized Romans ! lol

... cool :)


everyone after the romans are barbarians

all the T in karsdorf and bulgaria are
T1a1a2-Y63197 (xBY154289) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y63197)

Salento
16-05-20, 14:20
Salento: R437 K36 Coordinates. Thanks, So 87 is Puglia, looks like 81 is Lazio, 83 is Campania and 82 Calabria. In Sicily 82 is West Sicily, 81 East Sicily and 80 Malta. So R437 K36 is consistent with what you and I are getting on Dodcad 12B and Eurogenes K13 for R437 as well as MTA.

Good analysis and information. Thanks.

@Palermo Trapani

from AncestryDNA, my DNA story - 1750 and 1800 maps

1800: some of my Genetic Relatives moved to Sicily, Palermo and Trapani included :) interesting ...

https://i.imgur.com/LHbIHpr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vp2GR0z.jpg


... in the 1900s many came to Amarica !

https://i.imgur.com/pZXlUfp.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/AfqRlNX.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vupzqXU.jpg

Carlos
16-05-20, 17:22
New this week

38. Iron Age France (300 BC) ..... 12.77 - COL153i
Celt + Gaul (6.587)
Visigoth + Celt (8.184)
Celt + Frank (8.5)
Visigoth + Frank (9.318)
Visigoth + Saxon (9.338)
Celt (12.46)
Frank (12.88)
Visigoth (13.89)
Saxon (14.1)
Gaul (14.59)

89. TBD Iron Age Erstein France (300 BC) ..... 15.2 - ERS1164
Celt + Vascones (8.294)
Vascones + Frank (8.891)
Celt + Frank (9.229)
Visigoth + Celt (10.45)
Visigoth + Vascones (11.13)
Celt (13.35)
Frank (14.21)
Vascones (15.27)
Saxon (16.65)
Visigoth (16.84)

95. TBD Iron Age Erstein France (300 BC) ..... 15.45 - ERS86
Visigoth + Etruscan (6.284)
Etruscan + Frank (6.474)
Gallo-Roman + Frank (7.066)
Visigoth + Gallo-Roman (7.146)
Frank + Illyrian (7.727)
Gallo-Roman (9.862)
Frank (11.27)
Illyrian (11.51)
Visigoth (12.29)
Etruscan (12.44)

104. Rixheim Bronze Age France (1750 BC) ..... 15.95 - RIX4
Visigoth + Celt (6.635)
Visigoth + Ostrogoth (8.524)
Visigoth + Frank (8.695)
Celt + Frank (8.895)
Visigoth + Saxon (9.131)
Celt (10.49)
Frank (12.59)
Saxon (12.96)
Visigoth (14.83)
Ostrogoth (15.99)

128. Bronze Age Early Celt Wartau Switzerland (1651 BC) ..... 16.66 - SX20
Celt + Vascones (2.209)
Celt + Iberian (3.36)
Vascones (4.447)
Celt (4.539)
Celt + Aquitani (4.875)
Celt + Celtiberian (4.884)
Vascones + Celtiberian (5.642)
Celtiberian (10.71)
Aquitani (11.51)
Iberian (12.61)

149. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 17.35 - I4885
Frank + Illyrian (3.312)
Visigoth + Illyrian (3.706)
Gaul + Frank (5.738)
Visigoth + Frank (6.208)
Gaul + Illyrian (6.402)
Gaul (7.824)
Frank (7.824)
Visigoth (10.22)
Thuringii (12.12)
Illyrian (12.26)

152. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 17.44 - I4891 -
Celt + Ostrogoth (5.392)
Celt + Frank (6.412)
Visigoth + Celt (7.033)
Celt (7.062)
Celt + Saxon (7.211)
Saxon + Frank (7.28)
Saxon (9.367)
Frank (11.47)
Ostrogoth (12.94)
Visigoth (14.74)

184. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 18.56 - I4887 -
Celt + Frank (3.906)
Celt + Saxon (5.081)
Saxon + Frank (5.577)
Celt + Ostrogoth (5.719)
Celt + Vandal (6.209)
Saxon (6.319)
Celt (7.227)
Frank (10.47)
Vandal (10.92)
Ostrogoth (12.1)

192. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 18.8 - I4888
Celt + Frank (4.197)
Saxon + Frank (4.947)
Ostrogoth + Frank (6.415)
Celt (6.933)
Celt + Ostrogoth (7.258)
Visigoth + Celt (7.419)
Frank (7.956)
Saxon (9.731)
Ostrogoth (11.77)
Visigoth (12.41)

230. Early Bronze Age Bad Zurzach Switzerland (1963 BC) ..... 20.08 - SNPRA63 -
Alemanni + Latin (1.837)
Vandal + Latin (3.364)
Latin + Ostrogoth (6.725)
Latin + Frank (7.013)
Alemanni + Frank (7.293)
Alemanni (9.039)
Vandal (10.38)
Ostrogoth (11.46)
Latin (11.7)
Frank (11.8)

234. Distillery Cave Oban Argyll and Bute Scotland (3669 BC) ..... 20.33 - I2691
Latin (7.962)
Iberian + Latin (8.827)
Latin + Etruscan (9.087)
Latin + Rhaeti (9.399)
Gallo-Roman + Latin (10.39)
Iberian + Etruscan (11.34)
Iberian (13.41)
Etruscan (13.69)
Rhaeti (14.13)
Gallo-Roman (14.29)

237. Bronze Age Jinonice Prague Czech (2122 BC) ..... 20.51 - I4886 -
Frank (3.633)
Visigoth + Frank (3.975)
Visigoth + Ostrogoth (4.302)
Ostrogoth + Frank (4.404)
Visigoth (4.913)
Gaul + Ostrogoth (4.999)
Gaul + Saxon (5.373)
Saxon (8.24)
Ostrogoth (9.678)
Gaul (9.756)

I am a little French I will demonstrate it:

Aló mon dieu! Je suis Carlos et je ne comprend pas alors salutations pour toutes les garçons air revoir!look!!!

The thing about Prague is totally true because years ago I had a trip to Prague in a draw.

Palermo Trapani
16-05-20, 18:01
@Palermo Trapani

from AncestryDNA, my DNA story - 1750 and 1800 maps

1800: some of my Genetic Relatives moved to Sicily, Palermo and Trapani included :) interesting ...

https://i.imgur.com/LHbIHpr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vp2GR0z.jpg


... in the 1900s many came to Amarica !

https://i.imgur.com/pZXlUfp.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/AfqRlNX.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vupzqXU.jpg

Salento: Thanks. Some people forget, not you, that everything South of Rome, starting with the Normans was a united Kingdom with leadership from Sicily (Kingdom of Sicily or 2 Sicilies) or from Naples (Kingdom of Naples). I would think, pure hypothesis, that your personal history is not uncommon, as people moved within the territory, military men stationed from point A to point B, trade from area to area and movement for work, etc. If you go back to the Roman era all the way up to the Byzantine period, those same areas were united as well. The only bleep in the history was when the Saracens invaded and had control in Sicily, Total control was not obtained till about 965. I think they had control of Puglia for about 30 years, or maybe the region around Bari and invaded and sacked Rome a few times but never had enough forces to sustain the expansion.

Your story is also interesting to me because when I was in Trapani, I went to the town where my Great Grandfather was born and told them my family name and the locals kept telling me "non-communale", well it is present in Sicily but not to the level it is in Naples. And the name when I did a surname search on where it populates the most it is in Naples. Not saying that my ancestors 250-300 years ago were in Naples and then moved to NW Sicily but you never Know. On the other hand, my Mother's maiden name is one of the 5 most common family names in Sicily and her Father's mother's maiden name definitely from Sicily as it is the name of a town in the Province of Ragusa (which shows up on the map below). I have traced my Fathers Paternal Great Grandfather's lineage back to the late 1700's using Ancestry and my own personal research when I was in Trapani last summer but the civil records in Sicily, like elsewhere in Italy I think usually stop around 1800. However, Catholic Sacrament records are on file with either Local Parish or Diocese (Bishop) and date back to the Council of Trent (1534-1563) era which is exciting but from what I gathered it is not easy to get a chance to review Sacrament records if you are doing personal research and not academic type research, etc.

1207812079


I have not made my Ancestry public. I might have to email you and see what you have done as you get back into the 1800's. I got that far back by finding a Marriage or birth record in early 1800's which would have parents name and age, where they were from, who the grandparents were ect. I just found the other night on my Mothers side her Father's Grandfather's wedding document which had his birth record and who presented him at birth, with parents name and dates, etc, but it gets tougher once you get past 1800.

Cheers, How was the allegorical Vinno I sent the other day! Sorry the 2 jpeg.s blurred together a bit.

Duarte
16-05-20, 18:02
My new samples acquired this weekend. In my current MTA’s level, are displayed only the next ones that I am posting. The other are blocked.

https://i.imgur.com/mNwnTIB.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6fjltBX.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7crYoBz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Ros1Ck3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rMPZHOk.jpg

Palermo Trapani
16-05-20, 18:20
Duarte: In post #2503, to get to 183 samples, is that the Lighting bolt or strike option. I upgraded to Zeus but there are 2 features that you can add above Zeus to get more samples. Man MTA is tempting, their site keeps getting better and their Maps that integrate sample matches is as I think you and Carlos have noted, best out there right now.

Duarte
16-05-20, 18:39
Duarte: In post #2503, to get to 183 samples, is that the Lighting bolt or strike option. I upgraded to Zeus but there are 2 features that you can add above Zeus to get more samples. Man MTA is tempting, their site keeps getting better and their Maps that integrate sample matches is as I think you and Carlos have noted, best out there right now.

Thanks for the tip Trapani.
I intend to add more resources to get more details about the old matches. I am only on stand-by, waiting for the end of the pandemic to pay for an upgrade, as you suggest. At the current juncture my option is to wait a little longer.
Thank you dear friend :)

Palermo Trapani
16-05-20, 18:46
Thanks for the tip Trapani.
I intend to add more resources to get more details about the old matches. I am only on stand-by, waiting for the end of the pandemic to pay for an upgrade, as you suggest. At the current juncture my option is to wait a little longer.
Thank you dear friend :)

Duarte: I understand completely. I want to do the Ftdna analysis that you suggested a while back but I just can't pull the trigger right now with the COVID-19 situation, even though my job is secure (Thanks be to God) and I could work from home next fall and teach my classes via zoom/Skype (i.e. Remote access) if my University does not allow on-campus classes. Still, the memory of my Grandparents still is implanted in my brain, i.e. people who went through the depression era USA economy and as a kid when they put food on your plate and you did not eat it, it was like mortal sin to them!!!, which as I get older now I understand more and more where they were coming from.

Duarte
16-05-20, 19:13
Duarte: I understand completely. I want to do the Ftdna analysis that you suggested a while back but I just can't pull the trigger right now with the COVID-19 situation, even though my job is secure (Thanks be to God) and I could work from home next fall and teach my classes via zoom/Skype (i.e. Remote access) if my University does not allow on-campus classes. Still, the memory of my Grandparents still is implanted in my brain, i.e. people who went through the depression era USA economy and as a kid when they put food on your plate and you did not eat it, it was like mortal sin to them!!!, which as I get older now I understand more and more where they were coming from.

You are right Trapani.
I also have a stable situation, but I recently, spent some money, together with a friend who owns a restaurant, to help the most vulnerable population of Belo Horizonte, providing food (street population). I am also helping a charity in Belo Horizonte that takes care of the elderly and also children with cerebral palsy, all of whom are neglected. The federal government asked for help in cash that can be deposited in the accounts of the official bank, Banco do Brasil. I do not trust this government and from me now, it will not receive a penny. I know that if the money is deposited in the federal government accounts, it will not reach BH. At the moment, I only help the needy inhabitants of my city. Unfortunately I have to be selective.
That is why I am postponing expenses that are not essential, as is the case with the MTA, for example.
Cheers :)

torzio
16-05-20, 19:20
Torzio: I think the sample in my post is the oldest one, is that not correct? I was only looking for genetic distances independent of Y-DNA Haplogroup, which it seems is more of the angle your post are focused on. From an Genetic Distance perspective, independent of Y-DNA haplogroup. R850 which is 650 BC Rome and I0795 from Neolithic Germany from 5,300 BC are using Dodecad 12B a distance of 27. So there is some genetic overlap between the Karsdorf I0795 and R850, my guess EEF type ancestry?

How close are I0795 and the other Karsdorf samples? Are they relatively close distance wise?

I am not Y-DNA T but my Distance for R850 using Dodecad 12B and Eurogenes K13 are 13.2 and 12.1, respectively. R437 distance wise is my closest 4.18 and 5.43,respectively. So while I don't share the Y-DNA Haplogroup of R850 or R437, autosonal wise I am relatively close to both and I share DNA segments with R850. My Y-DNA Haplogroup is I, specifically I2 (I-M223) so I am not sure Y-DNA alone tells the story, only partial story. I have not done any type deep clade analysis and I am not on Ftdna where I think that type of analysis can really be done well.


the oldest T was a hunter in , IIRC southern Lebanon, found in a cave with a bow circa 9000yo .........the oldest in Europe is Karsdorf at 7000yo ..............but they are all from T1a1 branch, i was speaking to Salento in regards to our branch of T1a2 and that was in the north caucasus at circa 5500yo
As per what T experts wrote to me 2 plus years ago, all 3 branches of T ( T1a1, T1a2 and T1a3 ) all came out of 1 person around modern Turkmenistan lands south of the Aral sea

Salento
16-05-20, 19:33
Salento: Thanks. Some people forget, not you, that everything South of Rome, starting with the Normans was a united Kingdom with leadership from Sicily (Kingdom of Sicily or 2 Sicilies) or from Naples (Kingdom of Naples). I would think, pure hypothesis, that your personal history is not uncommon, as people moved within the territory, military men stationed from point A to point B, trade from area to area and movement for work, etc. If you go back to the Roman era all the way up to the Byzantine period, those same areas were united as well. The only bleep in the history was when the Saracens invaded and had control in Sicily, Total control was not obtained till about 965. I think they had control of Puglia for about 30 years, or maybe the region around Bari and invaded and sacked Rome a few times but never had enough forces to sustain the expansion.

Your story is also interesting to me because when I was in Trapani, I went to the town where my Great Grandfather was born and the locals kept telling me "non-communale", well it is present in Sicily but not to the level it is in Naples. And the name when I did a surname search on where it populates the most it is in Naples. Not saying that my ancestors 250-300 years ago were in Naples and then moved to NW Sicily but you never no. On the other hand, my Mother's maiden name is one of the 5 most common family names in Sicily and her Father's mother's maiden name definitely from Sicily as it is the name of a town in the Province of Ragusa (which shows up on the map below). I have traced my Fathers Paternal Great Grandfather's lineage back to the late 1700's using Ancestry and my own personal research when I was in Trapani last summer but the civil records in Sicily, like elsewhere in Italy I think usually stop around 1800. However, Catholic Sacrament records are on file with either Local Parish or Diocese (Bishop) and date back to the Council of Trent (1534-1563) era which is exciting but from what I gathered it is not easy to get a chance to review Sacrament records if you are not doing personal research and not academic type research, etc.

1207812079


I have not made my Ancestry public. I might have to email you and see what you have done as you get back into the 1800's. I got that far back by finding a Marriage or birth record in early 1800's which would have parents name and age, where they were from, who the grandparents were ect. I just found the other night on my Mothers side her Father's Grandfather's wedding document which had his birth record and who presented him at birth, with parents name and dates, etc, but it gets tougher once you get past 1800.

Cheers, How was the allegorical Vinno I sent the other day! Sorry the 2 jpeg.s blurred together a bit.

... the vino was good :)

AncestryDNA in 1750 shows Ancestry in Salento, ... gone by 1800, never to be seen again, even though me and every other past and present relative that I’m aware of, were all born in Salento.

https://i.imgur.com/4nQP3NN.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/YH9nO6z.jpg

In the 1800s are not in Salento anymore ... but they never left Rome and the Pope, lol

https://i.imgur.com/Kw8Lry6.jpg


Puglia is my main genetic community ☺
(Salento didn’t make it) lol

https://i.imgur.com/xJK1yA4.jpg

torzio
16-05-20, 19:36
no change for my family for the new updates except , my sister second spot after north-italian went from portuguese to Catalan

Palermo Trapani
16-05-20, 19:50
the oldest T was a hunter in , IIRC southern Lebanon, found in a cave with a bow circa 9000yo .........the oldest in Europe is Karsdorf at 7000yo ..............but they are all from T1a1 branch, i was speaking to Salento in regards to our branch of T1a2 and that was in the north caucasus at circa 5500yo
As per what T experts wrote to me 2 plus years ago, all 3 branches of T ( T1a1, T1a2 and T1a3 ) all came out of 1 person around modern Turkmenistan lands south of the Aral sea

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I appreciate it. So with respect to Y-DNA T, the oldest sample in Europe is the Karsdorf German sample, oldest T sample researchers have documented is from early Neolithic Lebanon but all T goes back to Central Asia. Like I said I have not done the type of Y-DNA Haplogroup analysis that you and Salento have. I am Y-DNA I-M223 (I2 branch of I) and Haplogroup I, which from what I gathered is probably the only one that is indigenous to Europe along with some minor clades of C1a2 (per Maciamo's article here at Eupedia). But other than that, I have not delved into significant analysis of I-M223 other than it might be a surviving lineage of Hunter gatherers post Ice Age, etc.

Palermo Trapani
16-05-20, 19:58
Salento: Looks like your overlapping there with Basilicata along with Puglia of course. The great Green Bay Packers Coach Vince Lombardi's ancestors were from Basilicata on his Mothers side and Salerno-Campania on his Father's side. Francis Ford Coppola's ancestry is similar to Coach Lombardi's half from Basilicata and half from Campania (Naples). So maybe your related to Coach Lombardi and Coppola. When I told all my Siciliano paisan that Coach Lombardi was Campania/Basilicata, they were like Damn, but still part of the paisan family:good_job:

Salento
19-05-20, 15:30
Medieval / Renaissance

... You have ancient relatives!
(You share identified DNA segments)

https://i.imgur.com/xZTaehf.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6HioTP9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/JnDRfWY.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/n0v8oHO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Qz2v0Ot.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1tVPFdj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/lo00S8G.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gUibVoq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/SiAElaS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vfqoRCd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/yJzBV6i.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ytKznQ5.jpg

Duarte
19-05-20, 16:55
My ancient relatives. My Matches in "Deep Dive"with pictures.
All matches AD (Anno Domini ) are contrasted in yellow color.

https://i.imgur.com/6brz282.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UfZiPuv.png

Angela
19-05-20, 16:56
I think I mentioned before that the sample found in a relic whom it was claimed was Louis XV1 is a reasonably good match of mine. He was G2a. If it was him he was illegitimate as the line is R1b.

Does anyone know if any theories have been put forward as to who he might be?

31. Relic French King Louis XVI (1793 AD) ..... 11.37 top 98%
match vs all users

Riverman
19-05-20, 19:43
I think I mentioned before that the sample found in a relic whom it was claimed was Louis XV1 is a reasonably good match of mine. He was G2a. If it was him he was illegitimate as the line is R1b.

Does anyone know if any theories have been put forward as to who he might be?

31. Relic French King Louis XVI (1793 AD) ..... 11.37 top 98%
match vs all users


According to MTA I'm even closer at 99 percent in deep dive and he became my top match there by now. I don't really trust it, because I would share as much as with a real 4th cousin with him, which is rather unlikely everything considered.

Read here for the study producing the sample analysis, Henri IV and Louis XVI were the supposed donors:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/234042939_Genetic_comparison_of_the_head_of_Henri_ IV_and_the_presumptive_blood_from_Louis_XVI_both_K ings_of_France
And the critique of it:

Based on 22 scientific and historical arguments, the head was recently identified as belonging to the French King Henri IV.21 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3992573/#bib21) Nevertheless, this identification remains controversial as several historical counter-arguments have been formulated.22 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3992573/#bib22), 23 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3992573/#bib23)


Next to the Y-chr, the mitochondrial DNA analysis of the head of Henri IV also does not support the presumed identification of the head sample. According to Charlier et al,24 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3992573/#bib24) the donor of the head belongs to mtDNA haplogroup U5b*

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3992573/

Angela
19-05-20, 19:55
According to MTA I'm even closer at 99 percent in deep dive and he became my top match there by now. I don't really trust it, because I would share as much as with a real 4th cousin with him, which is rather unlikely everything considered.

Read here for the study producing the sample analysis, Henri IV and Louis XVI were the supposed donors:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/234042939_Genetic_comparison_of_the_head_of_Henri_ IV_and_the_presumptive_blood_from_Louis_XVI_both_K ings_of_France
And the critique of it:




https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3992573/

Well, I'd certainly prefer a connection to Henry of Navarre than Louis XVI. The latter was a complete dummkopf...fiddling around with watches and clocks while his kingdom crumbled around him and his children, if they were his children, were in danger.

To be determined, I guess....

If I were these researchers, I wouldn't be so sure that the yDna of some descendants is the same as the dna which these kings actually carried, and which is the same lineage for both the putative Henri of Navarre and Louis XVI.

Anyone who thinks there wasn't infidelity in royal lines hasn't been paying attention.

We know that Richard II of England was G2a. None of the males supposedly of the Plantagenet line carry that yDna. So, either he was illegitimate, or there was illegitimacy in their lines. Either way, Richard II of England was G2a.

It's all just further proof to me of the stupidity of rule by inheritance, and believing in some sort of divine right of kings. Louis XVI would have been happier owning some shop, Prince Charles as a farmer, and Prince Harry as some army officer.

Salento
19-05-20, 20:08
... continuity (2)

https://i.imgur.com/nZp0OlA.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/lpJVmup.jpg

... not easy to screenshot ...

Duarte
19-05-20, 22:55
... continuity (2)

https://i.imgur.com/nZp0OlA.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/lpJVmup.jpg

... not easy to screenshot ...

Very cool dear friend Salento :good_job:

Salento
21-05-20, 00:56
R437 / R850 ...

Romulus and Remus, I think :)

https://i.imgur.com/WxFgDV2.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FSnn37v.jpg

https://i1.sndcdn.com/artworks-000107812430-06q5rd-t500x500.jpg

torzio
21-05-20, 07:46
@salento

the breakdown by Era ......is it accurate?

mine is
71% Illyrian
6.7% proto-Rhaeti
6.0% proto-celt
4.9% proto-visigoth
4.0% proto-frank

other 3 under 4%


.........
my first cousin , paternal side has

79.2% illyrian
5% proto-frank
4.4% proto-rhaeti

others under 4%

Salento
21-05-20, 15:32
@salento

the breakdown by Era ......is it accurate?

mine is
71% Illyrian
6.7% proto-Rhaeti
6.0% proto-celt
4.9% proto-visigoth
4.0% proto-frank

other 3 under 4%


.........
my first cousin , paternal side has

79.2% illyrian
5% proto-frank
4.4% proto-rhaeti

others under 4%

That shows the Spread of your Genes by percentages among those Early Bronze Age samples, I think :)

https://i.imgur.com/0uwAF89.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qeQQlan.jpg

Edit:
...with the combined AncestryDNA and 23andme v4 I get this below, but imho it doesn’t paint the complexity of my background ...

https://i.imgur.com/bsnwQkp.jpg

Userius
23-05-20, 15:33
Scythian Ukraine


mtDNA Haplogroup: J2b1a6

Y-DNA Haplogroup: R1b1a1a2


Deep Dive Match! 46% closer than others who share this deep dive sample
Genetic Distance: 9.4106
Sample Match! 99% closer than other users



​Is this pretty close?

Carlos
23-05-20, 23:17
A new deep dive this week

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uwDbaC6rzMk/XsjZWsoS_XI/AAAAAAAAD4I/J8n3iMUDi4oXNiRiajj5mbKPLx_FDf48wCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/NeolithicFrancePENOO1real2.jpeg

torzio
24-05-20, 00:08
my update

I have lost all my 'golden throphies " from the BC time matches

my new order for BC times is...top one being first
I4331
SCY305
R1
SCY300

Salento
24-05-20, 00:53
Edit ... deleted... wrong thread ... :good_job:

Duarte
24-05-20, 03:04
A new deep dive this week

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uwDbaC6rzMk/XsjZWsoS_XI/AAAAAAAAD4I/J8n3iMUDi4oXNiRiajj5mbKPLx_FDf48wCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/NeolithicFrancePENOO1real2.jpeg

I have this ancient sample just in “Ancient Samples Results”, as below.

https://i.imgur.com/0jGY0lL.jpg


My ancient French matchings in “Deep Dive” are these ones, in age sequecing.

https://i.imgur.com/1UIogcb.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/fyx8K4I.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/yTzZmnh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/IFBkgc9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GhHIGpm.jpg

Carlos
24-05-20, 09:54
^^

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jANh61dThsc/XsjYyKIQqiI/AAAAAAAAD0c/_McYUj6KbMUgrLQfZ36_OQ6lptt4tVifACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/AquitaniPechMahoFrancePECH8.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MWr6qj1psPA/XsjY2LI9esI/AAAAAAAAD00/IdM1RT1NpLA_46k6Xe3jw55AhcUuNTujgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/BellBeakeerSouthFranceI3874.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bxbN8BJKiFE/XsjY24YoI1I/AAAAAAAAD04/G_yJJtwPwM8SpKGwM6iCyfuPuX3Mw_cxQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/BellBeakerFranceI1388.JPEG
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Pz3dDyq5OZs/XsjY4JZgHUI/AAAAAAAAD1A/7hnH74u2uWYwnjvX_gPamslgZdTZi8l4QCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/BellBeakerSourthernFranceI3875.JPEG
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uwDbaC6rzMk/XsjZWsoS_XI/AAAAAAAAD4I/J8n3iMUDi4oXNiRiajj5mbKPLx_FDf48wCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/NeolithicFrancePENOO1real2.jpeg

@Duarte

The neolithic still remains without comparison with other users.


To liven up the morning all my Bronze for the moment.

28. Vatya Bronze Age Hungary (1750 BC) ..... 12.12 - Rise483
29. Bronze Age Spain Cogotas (1290 BC) ..... 12.13 - I12209
32. North Alpine Bronze Age (1677 BC) ..... 12.2 - AITI_98
33. Bronze Age Vatya Pannonia (1600 BC) ..... 12.36 - Rise480
39. North Alpine Bronze Age (1794 BC) ..... 12.9 - AITI_43
49. Menorca Late Bronze Age (861 BC) ..... 13.55 - I3315
62. Bronze Age Spain Cogotas (1290 BC) ..... 14.25 - I12208
68. North Alpine Middle Bronze Age (1563 BC) ..... 14.42 - OTTM_151ind2
70. North Alpine Bronze Age (1797 BC) ..... 14.51 - AITI_66
70. North Alpine Bronze Age (1797 BC) ..... 14.51 - AITI_66
84. Bronze Age Northern Spain (1440 BC) ..... 14.78 - I2472 -
92. Early Bronze Age Abisso del Vento Sicily (2073 BC) ..... 15.27 - I8561
97. Portugal Middle Bronze Age (1580 BC) ..... 15.48 - TV3831
99. Portugal Middle Bronze Age (1580 BC) ..... 15.56 - ValeOuro10207 -
105. Rixheim Bronze Age France (1750 BC) ..... 15.95 - RIX4
109. Bronze Age Singen am Hohentwiel (2000 BC) ..... 15.97 - MX256
110. Mallorca Early Bronze Age (2350 BC) ..... 16.0 - I4329
112. North Alpine Bronze Age (1790 BC) ..... 16.07 - AITI_78
114. Bronze Age Northern Spain (1560 BC) ..... 16.23 - VAD001
115. Bronze Age Spain Cogotas (1350 BC) ..... 16.23 - ESP005
116. Early bronze Age Singen Germany (1696 BC) ..... 16.24 - MX257
120. Bronze Age Singen am Hohentwiel (1785 BC) ..... 16.43 - MX277
124. Bronze Age Singen am Hohentwiel (2030 BC) ..... 16.53 - MX283
125. Bronze Age Singen am Hohentwiel (2000 BC) ..... 16.55 - MX254_2 -
127. Bronze Age Spain Cogotas I (1500 BC) ..... 16.6 - I3493
129. Bronze Age Early Celt Wartau Switzerland (1651 BC) ..... 16.66 - SX20
137. Rixheim Bronze Age France (1750 BC) ..... 16.86 - RIX15
144. Bronze Age Koenigsbrunn Germany (1957 BC) ..... 17.1 - OBKR_9A
148. North Alpine Bronze Age (1815 BC) ..... 17.24 - AITI_72
151. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 17.35 - I4885
155. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 17.44 - I4891 -
156. Bronze Age Koenigsbrunn Germany (2012 BC) ..... 17.44 - OBKR_50
161. Bronze Age Singen am Hohentwiel (2000 BC) ..... 17.55 - MX258
163. Bronze Age Northern Spain (1440 BC) ..... 17.6 - I1840
166. Bronze Age Northern Spain (1560 BC) ..... 17.66 - VAD005 -
170. North Alpine Bronze Age (1788 BC) ..... 17.85 - AITI_40
171. Bronze Age Singen am Hohentwiel (1860 BC) ..... 17.85 - MX252
183. Portugal Bronze Age (1600 BC) ..... 18.47 - VO10207
185. North Alpine Middle Bronze Age (1525 BC) ..... 18.54 - OTTM_156
187. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 18.56 - I4887
188. Portugal Middle Bronze Age (1580 BC) ..... 18.59 - MonteGato104
190. Bronze Age Haunstetten Germany (1966 BC) ..... 18.67 - POST_28
191. North Alpine Bronze Age (1950 BC) ..... 18.67 - AITI_70 -
193. High Status North Alpine Bronze Age (1789 BC) ..... 18.78 - AITI_119
194. Rixheim Bronze Age France (1750 BC) ..... 18.79 - RIX2 -
195. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 18.8 - I4888
199. Early Bronze Age Wartau Switzerland (1815 BC) ..... 18.87 - SX23
208. North Alpine Bronze Age (1791 BC) ..... 19.12 - AITI_2 -
213. Vatya Bronze Age Hungary (1750 BC) ..... 19.28 - Rise484
218. Bronze Age Singen am Hohentwiel (1930 BC) ..... 19.49 - MX286
221. Kornice Bronze Age Poland (2200 BC) ..... 19.66 - I6582
222. Kornice Bronze Age Poland (2300 BC) ..... 19.67 - I6534 -
223. Bronze Age Northern Spain (1560 BC) ..... 19.78 - VAD004
226. Bronze Age Loma del Puerco (1800 BC) ..... 19.86 - I7162 -
233. Bronze Age Singen am Hohentwiel (2050 BC) ..... 20.05 - MX275
234. Early Bronze Age Bad Zurzach Switzerland (1963 BC) ..... 20.08 - SNPRA63
241. Bronze Age Jinonice Prague Czech (2122 BC) ..... 20.51 - I4886
245. Bronze Age Spain Cogotas I (1500 BC) ..... 20.68 - I3490
246. Bronze Age Amesbury (1450 BC) ..... 20.68 - I2458 -
248. Bronze Age Anselfingen Germany (2325 BC) ..... 20.73 - MX259 -



The problem is that I have put on 10kg and the summer clothes are almost out of the closet and there is no time, I will walk on secondary streets.

Duarte
24-05-20, 16:57
^^

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jANh61dThsc/XsjYyKIQqiI/AAAAAAAAD0c/_McYUj6KbMUgrLQfZ36_OQ6lptt4tVifACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/AquitaniPechMahoFrancePECH8.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MWr6qj1psPA/XsjY2LI9esI/AAAAAAAAD00/IdM1RT1NpLA_46k6Xe3jw55AhcUuNTujgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/BellBeakeerSouthFranceI3874.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bxbN8BJKiFE/XsjY24YoI1I/AAAAAAAAD04/G_yJJtwPwM8SpKGwM6iCyfuPuX3Mw_cxQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/BellBeakerFranceI1388.JPEG
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Pz3dDyq5OZs/XsjY4JZgHUI/AAAAAAAAD1A/7hnH74u2uWYwnjvX_gPamslgZdTZi8l4QCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/BellBeakerSourthernFranceI3875.JPEG
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uwDbaC6rzMk/XsjZWsoS_XI/AAAAAAAAD4I/J8n3iMUDi4oXNiRiajj5mbKPLx_FDf48wCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/NeolithicFrancePENOO1real2.jpeg

@Duarte

The neolithic still remains without comparison with other users.


To liven up the morning all my Bronze for the moment.

28. Vatya Bronze Age Hungary (1750 BC) ..... 12.12 - Rise483
29. Bronze Age Spain Cogotas (1290 BC) ..... 12.13 - I12209
32. North Alpine Bronze Age (1677 BC) ..... 12.2 - AITI_98
33. Bronze Age Vatya Pannonia (1600 BC) ..... 12.36 - Rise480
39. North Alpine Bronze Age (1794 BC) ..... 12.9 - AITI_43
49. Menorca Late Bronze Age (861 BC) ..... 13.55 - I3315
62. Bronze Age Spain Cogotas (1290 BC) ..... 14.25 - I12208
68. North Alpine Middle Bronze Age (1563 BC) ..... 14.42 - OTTM_151ind2
70. North Alpine Bronze Age (1797 BC) ..... 14.51 - AITI_66
70. North Alpine Bronze Age (1797 BC) ..... 14.51 - AITI_66
84. Bronze Age Northern Spain (1440 BC) ..... 14.78 - I2472 -
92. Early Bronze Age Abisso del Vento Sicily (2073 BC) ..... 15.27 - I8561
97. Portugal Middle Bronze Age (1580 BC) ..... 15.48 - TV3831
99. Portugal Middle Bronze Age (1580 BC) ..... 15.56 - ValeOuro10207 -
105. Rixheim Bronze Age France (1750 BC) ..... 15.95 - RIX4
109. Bronze Age Singen am Hohentwiel (2000 BC) ..... 15.97 - MX256
110. Mallorca Early Bronze Age (2350 BC) ..... 16.0 - I4329
112. North Alpine Bronze Age (1790 BC) ..... 16.07 - AITI_78
114. Bronze Age Northern Spain (1560 BC) ..... 16.23 - VAD001
115. Bronze Age Spain Cogotas (1350 BC) ..... 16.23 - ESP005
116. Early bronze Age Singen Germany (1696 BC) ..... 16.24 - MX257
120. Bronze Age Singen am Hohentwiel (1785 BC) ..... 16.43 - MX277
124. Bronze Age Singen am Hohentwiel (2030 BC) ..... 16.53 - MX283
125. Bronze Age Singen am Hohentwiel (2000 BC) ..... 16.55 - MX254_2 -
127. Bronze Age Spain Cogotas I (1500 BC) ..... 16.6 - I3493
129. Bronze Age Early Celt Wartau Switzerland (1651 BC) ..... 16.66 - SX20
137. Rixheim Bronze Age France (1750 BC) ..... 16.86 - RIX15
144. Bronze Age Koenigsbrunn Germany (1957 BC) ..... 17.1 - OBKR_9A
148. North Alpine Bronze Age (1815 BC) ..... 17.24 - AITI_72
151. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 17.35 - I4885
155. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 17.44 - I4891 -
156. Bronze Age Koenigsbrunn Germany (2012 BC) ..... 17.44 - OBKR_50
161. Bronze Age Singen am Hohentwiel (2000 BC) ..... 17.55 - MX258
163. Bronze Age Northern Spain (1440 BC) ..... 17.6 - I1840
166. Bronze Age Northern Spain (1560 BC) ..... 17.66 - VAD005 -
170. North Alpine Bronze Age (1788 BC) ..... 17.85 - AITI_40
171. Bronze Age Singen am Hohentwiel (1860 BC) ..... 17.85 - MX252
183. Portugal Bronze Age (1600 BC) ..... 18.47 - VO10207
185. North Alpine Middle Bronze Age (1525 BC) ..... 18.54 - OTTM_156
187. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 18.56 - I4887
188. Portugal Middle Bronze Age (1580 BC) ..... 18.59 - MonteGato104
190. Bronze Age Haunstetten Germany (1966 BC) ..... 18.67 - POST_28
191. North Alpine Bronze Age (1950 BC) ..... 18.67 - AITI_70 -
193. High Status North Alpine Bronze Age (1789 BC) ..... 18.78 - AITI_119
194. Rixheim Bronze Age France (1750 BC) ..... 18.79 - RIX2 -
195. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 18.8 - I4888
199. Early Bronze Age Wartau Switzerland (1815 BC) ..... 18.87 - SX23
208. North Alpine Bronze Age (1791 BC) ..... 19.12 - AITI_2 -
213. Vatya Bronze Age Hungary (1750 BC) ..... 19.28 - Rise484
218. Bronze Age Singen am Hohentwiel (1930 BC) ..... 19.49 - MX286
221. Kornice Bronze Age Poland (2200 BC) ..... 19.66 - I6582
222. Kornice Bronze Age Poland (2300 BC) ..... 19.67 - I6534 -
223. Bronze Age Northern Spain (1560 BC) ..... 19.78 - VAD004
226. Bronze Age Loma del Puerco (1800 BC) ..... 19.86 - I7162 -
233. Bronze Age Singen am Hohentwiel (2050 BC) ..... 20.05 - MX275
234. Early Bronze Age Bad Zurzach Switzerland (1963 BC) ..... 20.08 - SNPRA63
241. Bronze Age Jinonice Prague Czech (2122 BC) ..... 20.51 - I4886
245. Bronze Age Spain Cogotas I (1500 BC) ..... 20.68 - I3490
246. Bronze Age Amesbury (1450 BC) ..... 20.68 - I2458 -
248. Bronze Age Anselfingen Germany (2325 BC) ..... 20.73 - MX259 -



The problem is that I have put on 10kg and the summer clothes are almost out of the closet and there is no time, I will walk on secondary streets.

^^Thank you dear friend @Carlos
These are my Bronze Age samples according MTA:

https://i.imgur.com/ALcm3Dm.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1oczvnN.jpg

Duarte
25-05-20, 02:47
Carlos:
92. Early Bronze Age Abisso del Vento Sicily (2073 BC) ..... 15.27 - I8561

Me:
89. Early Bronze Age Abisso del Vento Sicily (2073 BC) ..... 15.58 - I8561

This sample was treated as an outlier in the paper below.

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2020_Fernandes_NatEcolEvol_WestMediterranean_Suppl ement.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/tFptom7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/EO6ctGJ.jpg
“Abisso del Vento 2017 (Grotto) (Sicily_EBA8561, I8561). Petrous bone, C14 dated to 2346- 2199 calBCE (3825±20 BP, PSUAMS-4873).

Among the Sicilian Early Bronze individuals, I11443 from Buffa Cave (Sicily_EBA11443) and individual I8561 from Isnello (Sicily_EBA8561) were not consistent with forming a clade with the remaining Early Bronze Age Sicilians in the great majority of tests. We therefore treated them as outliers for analysis”.

Carlos
25-05-20, 07:16
Carlos:
92. Early Bronze Age Abisso del Vento Sicily (2073 BC) ..... 15.27 - I8561

Me:
89. Early Bronze Age Abisso del Vento Sicily (2073 BC) ..... 15.58 - I8561

This sample was treated as an outlier in the paper below.

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2020_Fernandes_NatEcolEvol_WestMediterranean_Suppl ement.pdf



“Abisso del Vento 2017 (Grotto) (Sicily_EBA8561, I8561). Petrous bone, C14 dated to 2346- 2199 calBCE (3825±20 BP, PSUAMS-4873).

Among the Sicilian Early Bronze individuals, I11443 from Buffa Cave (Sicily_EBA11443) and individual I8561 from Isnello (Sicily_EBA8561) were not consistent with forming a clade with the remaining Early Bronze Age Sicilians in the great majority of tests. We therefore treated them as outliers for analysis”.
92. Early Bronze Age Abisso del Vento Sicily (2073 BC) ..... 15.27 - I8561

Latin + Etruscan (4.246)
Iberian + Etruscan (4.819)
Etruscan (6.485)
Iberian + Latin (6.508)
Latin + Rhaeti (6.888)
Rhaeti + Etruscan (7.002)
Iberian (9.291)
Rhaeti (9.57)
Latin (9.938)
Gallo-Roman (11.68)
1. Spanish_Aragon (13.46)
2. Spanish_Cantabria (13.72)
3. Southwest_French (14.77)
4. Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha (14.81)
5. Spanish_Andalucia (15.32)
6. Spanish_Valencia (15.81)
7. French_Basque (16.11)
8. Spanish_Murcia (17.38)

I had realized that although with its own superposition the sample is made up of results that I usually get and I do not have it in my outliers either.
Wasn't there also another Iberian in

Maybe MTA should add outlier to the sample or outlier

italouruguayan
28-05-20, 00:08
Things have changed a bit....1210812109

Sent from my SM-G9600 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Salento
29-05-20, 02:44
edit... - off topic, now I think :)

https://i.imgur.com/qeQQlan.jpg

Angela
30-05-20, 00:39
Good Grief: Jean Paul Marat??? I would have killed him in his bath like Charlotte Corday too. I don't care how intelligent he was; he was a mass murderer, or close to it. Left or right; makes no difference to me:

Jean-Paul Marat Revolutionary FranceMarat (1793 AD)

mtDNA Haplogroup: H2a2a1fY-DNA Haplogroup: Uncertain
Genetic Distance: 19.212
Sample Match! 59% closer than other users


Relic French King Louis XVILXVI (1793 AD)

mtDNA Haplogroup: N1bY-DNA Haplogroup: G2a (P15/PF3112)
Genetic Distance: 11.373
Sample Match! 98% closer than other users


Now, whoever is in there, he and I are CLOSE! :)

This next one isn't bad...

Carolingian Settlement BarcelonaI7672 (790 AD)

mtDNA Haplogroup: T2hY-DNA Haplogroup: R1b1a1a2a1a (L151/PF6542)
Genetic Distance: 23.517
Sample Match! 60% closer than other users


Le Mans Revolutionary FranceLM_403_T (1793 AD)

mtDNA Haplogroup: K1c1Y-DNA Haplogroup: Uncertain
Genetic Distance: 25.308
Sample Match! 29% closer than other usersLe Mans Revolutionary FranceLM_406_T (1793 AD)

mtDNA Haplogroup: H79aY-DNA Haplogroup: Uncertain
Genetic Distance: 24.601
Sample Match! 31% closer than other users

Crusader Knight Tuscan / LebanonSI-53 (1250 AD)

mtDNA Haplogroup: T2Y-DNA Haplogroup: R1b1a2a1a2c2 (CTS300/DF63/S522)
Genetic Distance: 14.868
Sample Match! 99% closer than other users

Crusader Knight French / LebanonSI-40 (1250 AD)

mtDNA Haplogroup: U5a1gY-DNA Haplogroup: R1b1a2a1a (CTS5330)
Genetic Distance: 22.806
Sample Match! 90% closer than other usersCrusader Knight Tuscan / LebanonSI-41 (1250 AD)

mtDNA Haplogroup: V19Y-DNA Haplogroup: R1b1a2a1a2a (DF27/S250)
Genetic Distance: 12.501
Sample Match! 99% closer than other users

Nice to know the people walking around my part of the world in 1200 AD were pretty much like me. There had to be a reason why I was so obsessed with the Italian Renaissance. :)

Now, as to Mr. Relic Man. Well, I could spin a tale: the boy king brutalized by the Sans Culotte cut his finger. The handkerchief covering it was left behind when Royalists spirited him away from his cell and they decided the one place where he would never be found, the back of beyond, was in the Appennine mountains south of Parma!

italouruguayan
30-05-20, 02:49
Things have changed a bit....1210812109

Sent from my SM-G9600 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

I was proud of my relationship with my admired Romans ... and now I have a relationship with one of his worst enemies ... I feel like a traitor ...:petrified::laughing:

Salento
30-05-20, 02:56
my 23s v4 - v5 R850 Deep Dive results are very different, even though they are both from 23andme ...

... for V4 I’m a Top #4 match, for V5 a standard user, ... Combined something in the middle



R850 Latin Tribe Ardea 650 BC (Iron Age) y T... mt T...
https://i.imgur.com/sq0537M.jpg


23v4:
https://i.imgur.com/zOXpuxK.jpg

43. Latin Tribe Ardea (650 BC) ..... 15.82 - R850




23v5:
https://i.imgur.com/qtOBFus.jpg

47. Latin Tribe Ardea (650 BC) ..... 17.09 - R850




Combined:
https://i.imgur.com/R5Nywad.jpg

45. Latin Tribe Ardea (650 BC) ..... 15.86 - R850

Carlos
30-05-20, 03:00
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Df2zx0Cjol0/XtGnKUfaK2I/AAAAAAAAD7w/MVXDA_ZPvJQbMlYiyy6susBAiUbtcc_GwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PontsurSeineBronzeAgeFrancePSS4170.JPEG

8. Dolmen de Saint-Eugene Bronze Age France (1950 BC) ..... 10.28 - EUG11 -
14. Aquitani Pech-Maho France (350 BC) ..... 10.9 - PECH8
20. Le Mans Revolutionary France (1793 AD) ..... 11.51 - LM_406_T
34. Rec de Ligno Bronze Age France (2050 BC) ..... 12.31 - PIR3037AB
38. Le Pirou Valros Bronze Age France (1630 BC) ..... 12.59 - Pir6
41. Belgic Tribe Colmar France (340 BC) ..... 12.77 - COL153i -
43. Neolithic France (3500 BC) ..... 13.25 - PEN001_real2
57. Pont-sur-Seine Bronze Age France (2100 BC) ..... 13.83 - PSS4170
79. Crusader Knight French / Lebanon (1250 AD) ..... 14.61 - SI-40
94. Belgic Tribe Erstein France (250 BC) ..... 15.2 - ERS1164 -
95. Quinquiris Bronze Age Aude France (1500 BC) ..... 15.21 - QUIN234
96. Marseilles Plague Victim (1721 AD) ..... 15.24 - OBS137
101. Iron Age Erstein France (250 BC) ..... 15.45 - ERS86
105. Bronze Age Niederergheim France (860 BC) ..... 15.62 - NIED
107. Quinquiris Bronze Age Aude France (1200 BC) ..... 15.68 - QUIN58
111. Belgic Tribe Nordhouse France (500 BC) ..... 15.85 - NOR3-6 -
113. Rixheim Bronze Age Alsace France (1690 BC) ..... 15.95 - RIX4
114. Ligurian Pech-Maho France (350 BC) ..... 15.95 - PECH5
121. Medieval France Saint-Laurent-de-la-Cabrerisse (1348 AD) ..... 16.23 - SLC1006
126. Le Mans Revolutionary France (1793 AD) ..... 16.35 - LM_306_T
145. Rixheim Bronze Age Alsace France (1650 BC) ..... 16.86 - RIX15
157. Relic French King Louis XVI (1793 AD) ..... 17.27 - LXVI
162. Le Peyrou Agde France (300 BC) ..... 17.44 - PEY163
172. Marseilles Plague Victim (1721 AD) ..... 17.64 - OBS116
181. Jean-Paul Marat Revolutionary France (1793 AD) ..... 17.92 - Marat
196. Neolithic France (3500 BC) ..... 18.58 - OBN003
203. Rixheim Bronze Age Alsace France (1650 BC) ..... 18.79 - RIX2
224. Le Peyrou Agde France (175 BC) ..... 19.41 - PEY53


https://www.elestudiodelpintor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/15.jpg

Joey37
30-05-20, 03:06
My top Deep Dive match is Bronze Age Amesbury, who lived not far from where my great-great-great-grandmother Louisa Selina Wilkins was born in Trowbridge in 1856.

Duarte
30-05-20, 04:16
I was proud of my relationship with my admired Romans ... and now I have a relationship with one of his worst enemies ... I feel like a traitor ...:petrified::laughing:

Very cool your results, ítalo.

I think that in my history of ancient samples I alternate between conquered (Iberian and Celtiberian) and conquerors (Gallo-Romans). :laughing:

I believe that all we are a little bit of each one, lol.

Today I'm a little tired.:grin:

Tomorrow (here in Brazil and there in Uruguay)I am going to check my new results and see what changed in my MTA . After, I will post.

Cheers. :good_job:

Angela
30-05-20, 04:29
I was proud of my relationship with my admired Romans ... and now I have a relationship with one of his worst enemies ... I feel like a traitor ...:petrified::laughing:

It can't be true. You're one of us. :) Maybe it just doesn't work as well for people who aren't as inbred as some of us. :)

My husband studied the classics in university. He had a great liking for Marcus Aurelius, kept a copy of his Meditations around, which was fine, but he also really liked Cato the Censor. I couldn't stand him. He thought Cato had strength of character and determination; I thought Cato was a bit mad, and a bore as well, and a perfect example of someone who could never forgive or forget. Talk about obsessions: whenever he was in the Senate, which was probably always, and no matter the topic of the discussion, whether it was the aqueduct or the sewers, or how much to pay for bread, he ended each lecture with: "Carthago Delenda Est" or Carthage Must Be Destroyed, and it was; he helped push Rome into the final war, and Carthage was destroyed and its people all sold into slavery. Total War first millennium B.C. style. Not their most admirable moment imo, but there you go, I guess that's how you build empires. The other total war was against the Jews, another bull-headed people. It didn't work out for them either.

Then, like all empires, it fell. Climate, disease and other things finally brought them low. How the mighty are fallen, right?

I'm reading a good book about it: The Fate of Rome; Climate, Disease and the End of Empire. I recommend it.

Salento
30-05-20, 08:49
... Tour of Italy, my Ancient Paesani, one of each, ... North to South:

You have ancient relatives! (you share identified DNA segments)

https://i.imgur.com/oLr4l17.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/w14d4c5.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bNME60P.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/iV0N9lM.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3Pji97G.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/C3eUcA9.jpg

Carlos
30-05-20, 12:30
It could not be otherwise, of course

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xVNl4LaH0eI/XtI1VnstNvI/AAAAAAAAD78/78jyGw1sFA4FA8ANItZituBPVFfAOIu2QCLcBGAsYHQ/s640/GallicChariotBurial.jpeg

Maciamo
30-05-20, 12:52
It could not be otherwise, of course

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xVNl4LaH0eI/XtI1VnstNvI/AAAAAAAAD78/78jyGw1sFA4FA8ANItZituBPVFfAOIu2QCLcBGAsYHQ/s640/GallicChariotBurial.jpeg

I match both samples at a GD of about 14.

Carlos
30-05-20, 13:02
I match both samples at a GD of about 14.

Your result is not bad. I am a little further away, which is not bad either considering that I am further away geographically and exposed to other combinations that in turn are subject to the historical events of my specific territory; Although I have results that I consider to be quite pig, the closer it would be to be walking through Paris today.

In GD I have not tried

Maciamo
30-05-20, 13:40
Previous samples had shown that modern Belgians's dominant ancestry was Germanic (Frankish and Saxon), but with a substantial minority of Celtic. The new Gaulish and Belgic samples show give even closer matches than earlier Proto-Celtic ones from Bronze Age Germany.

I have a dozen Belgian genomes. Here are the closest Celtic and Germanic matches so far are. I have excluded mixed ethnicities, although Frankish-Gaulish or Danish-Celtic tend to get the closest matches.

Closest Germanic matches by ethnic group

- Lombard (Hungary) : 3.1
- Visigoth Frankish (Girona, Spain) : 4.3
- Frankish (Hungary) : 5.1
- Alemannic Bavaria (450 CE) : 5.2
- Saxon (Hinxton, England) : 6.1
- Medieval Denmark : 6.6
- Swiss Germanic (580 CE) : 7.5

Closest Celtic matches

- Bronze Age Unetice culture (Prague, Czechia) : 4.1
- Bell Beaker Scotland : 5.8
- Iron Age Colmar (Alsace, France) : 5.9
- Bronze Age Bischwihr (Alsace, France) : 7.1
- Iron Age Belgic Tribe Nordhouse (Alsace, France) : 7.5

Angela
30-05-20, 14:02
well, if I go by my top matches:

1. Central Roman (590 AD) ..... 3.568 - SZ43 -
Top
99 % match vs all users

2. Central Roman (630 AD) ..... 4.975 - CL36 - ?
Top
99 % match vs all users

3. Tuscan Medieval Villa Magna Italy (905 AD) ..... 6.017 - R60 -
Top
99 % match vs all users

4. Protovillanovia Martinsicuro (930 BC) ..... 6.279 - R1 -
Top
99 % match vs all users

5. Central Roman (590 AD) ..... 7.029 - SZ36 -
Top
99 % match vs all users

1)SZ43::1. Tuscan (5.029)
2. North_Italian (8.337)
3. Albanian_Tosk (8.892)
4. Kosovar (9.972)
5. Italian_Abruzzo (10.12)
6. West_Sicilian (10.53)
7. Greek (11.71)
8. Greek_Thessaly (12.65)

2)1. Tuscan (6.059)
2. North_Italian (6.723)
3. Albanian_Tosk (11.58)
4. Italian_Abruzzo (11.87)
5. West_Sicilian (12.53)
6. Kosovar (12.61)
7. Spanish_Extremadura (13.81)
8. Spanish_Murcia (13.89)

3)1. Tuscan (5.034)
2. Italian_Abruzzo (7.080)
3. West_Sicilian (8.330)
4. Albanian_Tosk (9.279)
5. East_Sicilian (10.69)
6. Central_Greek (10.77)
7. North_Italian (11.17)
8. Greek (11.32)

4)1. North_Italian (5.281)
2. Tuscan (8.820)
3. Spanish_Andalucia (9.947)
4. Spanish_Murcia (11.02)
5. Spanish_Valencia (11.12)
6. Spanish_Extremadura (11.12)
7. Kosovar (11.37)
8. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon (11.94)

5)1. Tuscan (2.937)
2. Albanian_Tosk (7.987)
3. North_Italian (8.213)
4. West_Sicilian (8.444)
5. Kosovar (8.963)
6. Italian_Abruzzo (9.271)
7. Greek (9.454)
8. Greek_Thessaly (10.26)

This tool puts me closer to Florentines than any other one I've used, but I'm more than happy with that. :)

Dema
30-05-20, 14:40
Just reuploaded my kit since it expired. I got new closest ancient match

1000 BC - Bronze Age Szolad Hungary at genetic distance 7.1

also got 605 AD - Byzantine Roman Warrior at genetic distance 8.5

other then that Romans are my closest at 7.9



Also it finds my ethnicity pretty accurate:


https://imgur.com/WB6rscs.jpg


1. Kosovar (3.828)
2. Albanian_Tosk (5.661)
3. Bulgarian (6.538)
4. Greek (8.042)
5. Bosnian (8.613)
6. Romanian (9.028)
7. Greek_Thessaly (9.564)
8. Macedonian (9.654)

Salento
30-05-20, 15:25
well, if I go by my top matches:

1. Central Roman (590 AD) ..... 3.568 - SZ43 -
Top
99 %
match vs all users

2. Central Roman (630 AD) ..... 4.975 - CL36 - ?

99 %
match vs all users

3. Tuscan Medieval Villa Magna Italy (905 AD) ..... 6.017 - R60 -
Top
99 %
match vs all users

4. Protovillanovia Martinsicuro (930 BC) ..... 6.279 - R1 -
Top
99 %
match vs all users

5. Central Roman (590 AD) ..... 7.029 - SZ36 -
Top
99 %
match vs all users

1)SZ43::1. Tuscan (5.029)
2. North_Italian (8.337)
3. Albanian_Tosk (8.892)
4. Kosovar (9.972)
5. Italian_Abruzzo (10.12)
6. West_Sicilian (10.53)
7. Greek (11.71)
8. Greek_Thessaly (12.65)

2)1. Tuscan (6.059)
2. North_Italian (6.723)
3. Albanian_Tosk (11.58)
4. Italian_Abruzzo (11.87)
5. West_Sicilian (12.53)
6. Kosovar (12.61)
7. Spanish_Extremadura (13.81)
8. Spanish_Murcia (13.89)

3)1. Tuscan (5.034)
2. Italian_Abruzzo (7.080)
3. West_Sicilian (8.330)
4. Albanian_Tosk (9.279)
5. East_Sicilian (10.69)
6. Central_Greek (10.77)
7. North_Italian (11.17)
8. Greek (11.32)

4)1. North_Italian (5.281)
2. Tuscan (8.820)
3. Spanish_Andalucia (9.947)
4. Spanish_Murcia (11.02)
5. Spanish_Valencia (11.12)
6. Spanish_Extremadura (11.12)
7. Kosovar (11.37)
8. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon (11.94)

5)1. Tuscan (2.937)
2. Albanian_Tosk (7.987)
3. North_Italian (8.213)
4. West_Sicilian (8.444)
5. Kosovar (8.963)
6. Italian_Abruzzo (9.271)
7. Greek (9.454)
8. Greek_Thessaly (10.26)

This tool puts me closer to Florentines than any other one I've used, but I'm more than happy with that. :)

31. Central Roman (590 AD) ..... 14.36 - SZ43

95
Top 5
1. Hellenic Roman Monterotondo (165 AD) ..... 10.25 - R1548 South_Italian

2. Tuscan Medieval Cancelleria Basilica (1350 AD) ..... 10.85 - R1290 Tuscan

3. Hellenic Roman (590 AD) ..... 11.6 - SZ40 Italian_Abruzzo

4. Central Roman (590 AD) ..... 11.76 - SZ36 Tuscan

5. Imperial Rome Centocelle (200 AD) ..... 11.82 - R49 South_Italian

I think, ... distances: Clearly there’s an Ancient Population that has not yet been tested, ... the MESSAPI ... maybe :grin:

@MTA
... if you find and add the Messapi I’ll upgrade to Olympus :satisfied:

italouruguayan
30-05-20, 17:06
It can't be true. You're one of us. :) Maybe it just doesn't work as well for people who aren't as inbred as some of us. :)

My husband studied the classics in university. He had a great liking for Marcus Aurelius, kept a copy of his Meditations around, which was fine, but he also really liked Cato the Censor. I couldn't stand him. He thought Cato had strength of character and determination; I thought Cato was a bit mad, and a bore as well, and a perfect example of someone who could never forgive or forget. Talk about obsessions: whenever he was in the Senate, which was probably always, and no matter the topic of the discussion, whether it was the aqueduct or the sewers, or how much to pay for bread, he ended each lecture with: "Carthago Delenda Est" or Carthage Must Be Destroyed, and it was; he helped push Rome into the final war, and Carthage was destroyed and its people all sold into slavery. Total War first millennium B.C. style. Not their most admirable moment imo, but there you go, I guess that's how you build empires. The other total war was against the Jews, another bull-headed people. It didn't work out for them either.

Then, like all empires, it fell. Climate, disease and other things finally brought them low. How the mighty are fallen, right?

I'm reading a good book about it: The Fate of Rome; Climate, Disease and the End of Empire. I recommend it.


Thanks Angela! :) Without a doubt, Cato was a man with a goal in his life. But after Carthage was destroyed and its site cursed with salt, the Romans, with their proverbial pragmatism, built in their place a new Carthage that was one of the main cities of the Roman Empire. I will try to get the book you recommend, it must be Very interesting.My matches with Carthaginians have surprised me, Mytrueancestry is a real box of surprises ...

italouruguayan
30-05-20, 17:20
Very cool your results, ítalo.

I think that in my history of ancient samples I alternate between conquered (Iberian and Celtiberian) and conquerors (Gallo-Romans). :laughing:

I believe that all we are a little bit of each one, lol.

Today I'm a little tired.:grin:

Tomorrow (here in Brazil and there in Uruguay)I am going to check my new results and see what changed in my MTA . After, I will post.

Cheers. :good_job:

Hello Duarte!

This hobby combines several things that have interested me since my adolescence: biological sciences and history. When I did my first genetic study, my interest was to know how many and what were my non-European components (which were evident in my maternal family), and my relationship with the Romans in the components inherited from my paternal side (ethnically 100% Italian) . In general, the results corroborated my previous assumptions, with some small surprises: my component from sub-Saharan Africa was lower than I thought (3%), the Native American component was higher (18%), and my Y-DNA indicated a possible relationship with those who contributed to destroy the Roman Empire (R1b U 106).
And now, Mytrueancestry contributes more surprises ...

italouruguayan
30-05-20, 17:34
My first three matches...121261212712128

Sent from my SM-G9600 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

italouruguayan
30-05-20, 18:03
Deep Dive Europe12129

Sent from my SM-G9600 using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Hawk
30-05-20, 19:10
Looks like these guys are Swiss Italians. Very dishonorable at making money in a grey zone lol.

Angela
30-05-20, 21:47
Looks like these guys are Swiss Italians. Very dishonorable at making money in a grey zone lol.


Perhaps you'd care to explain yourself in English, if you please.

Carlos
30-05-20, 21:59
My mtDNA Deep Dive

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-myLRoCTmf78/XtK6w90DgwI/AAAAAAAAD8c/7Q-3sprI8qUleHjpVbeCxRji0HFTK6NFACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/MitocondrialDEEPdiveMatches2020.jpg

italouruguayan
30-05-20, 22:00
Surely many have not seen matches like these ...



Your closest Americas matches...
(Smaller numbers mean closer matches to you)

1. Iroquois Tribe Droulers St. Lawrence River (1515 AD) ..... 48.38 - DR-1797s-16061L
Top 1 % match vs all users

2. Iroquois Tribe Droulers St. Lawrence River (1515 AD) ..... 50.64 - DR-984-13054-1
Top 1 % match vs all users

3. Pacific Northwest Amerindian (850 AD) ..... 55.04 - BC386 - ?
Top 1 % match vs all users

4. Iroquois Tribe Droulers St. Lawrence River (1515 AD) ..... 56.89 - DR-984
Top 1 % match vs all users

5. Pacific Northwest Amerindian (150 AD) ..... 58.32 - BC125
Top 1 % match vs all users

6. Native American Washington State (6300 BC) ..... 58.56 - Kennewick
Top 1 % match vs all users

7. Amerindian Mikmaq New Brunswick (1625 AD) ..... 58.69 - MARC1492 -
Top 1 % match vs all users

8. Inuit Bering Strait (1325 AD) ..... 59.72 - I1125 -
Top 1 % match vs all users

9. Bering Sea (475 AD) ..... 59.85 - I7621 - ?
Top 1 % match vs all users

10. Alaskan Athabaskan (1235 AD) ..... 59.96 - I5320 -
Top 1 % match vs all users

bigsnake49
30-05-20, 22:13
Mine:

Ancients:

Byzantine + Gallo-Roman (8.744)
Byzantine + Roman (9.342)
Seleucid + Roman (9.892)
Seleucid + Gallo-Roman (10.0)
Seleucid + Byzantine (12.77)
Roman (13.6)
Seleucid (15.26)
Byzantine (16.07)
Gallo-Roman (19.47)


12131



Modern

1. Greek (6.885)
2. Kosovar (7.737)
3. Bulgarian (8.965)
4. Albanian_Tosk (9.845)
5. Macedonian (11.75)
6. Bosnian (11.75)
7. Greek_Thessaly (12.19)
8. Romanian (12.46)

Hawk
30-05-20, 22:45
Perhaps you'd care to explain yourself in English, if you please.

I can explain myself in Mandarin only.

TardisBlue
31-05-20, 10:50
I'm very pleased with the latest update for my Mom, it perfectly fits her ancestry. As for me, I would have expected SOME Belgae matches, but got none! My top populations haven't changed for a while. And yes, we both also got JP Marat (part Spanish - possibly marrano - part SW French). I match "Louis XVI'" s relic, but my Mom doesn't.

https://i.ibb.co/wwC2krC/Capture-d-cran-2020-05-29-23-39-32.png
https://i.ibb.co/j3KvRdL/Capture-d-cran-2020-05-29-23-40-16.png
https://i.ibb.co/dcRkcTW/Capture-d-cran-2020-05-29-23-40-34.png
https://i.ibb.co/KbrzVrd/Capture-d-cran-2020-05-29-23-41-08.png
https://i.ibb.co/r7RwPPX/Capture-d-cran-2020-05-29-23-41-49.png
https://i.ibb.co/X2tv234/Capture-d-cran-2020-05-29-23-42-56.png

Maciamo
31-05-20, 11:23
I'm very pleased with the latest update for my Mom, it perfectly fits her ancestry. As for me, I would have expected SOME Belgae matches, but got none! My top populations haven't changed for a while.

I ran 13 Belgian samples and none of them got Belgae in their top populations! Most get the Franks, Saxons or even Danish Vikings and Visigoths. Three have Celts and Gauls, but no Belgae. Very odd as almost everyone gets a genetic distance between 7 and 8 for individual Belgic samples.

Maciamo
31-05-20, 11:25
I can explain myself in Mandarin only.

没问题。 请用中文解释。

Angela
31-05-20, 15:08
Mine:

Ancients:

Byzantine + Gallo-Roman (8.744)
Byzantine + Roman (9.342)
Seleucid + Roman (9.892)
Seleucid + Gallo-Roman (10.0)
Seleucid + Byzantine (12.77)
Roman (13.6)
Seleucid (15.26)
Byzantine (16.07)
Gallo-Roman (19.47)


12131



Modern

1. Greek (6.885)
2. Kosovar (7.737)
3. Bulgarian (8.965)
4. Albanian_Tosk (9.845)
5. Macedonian (11.75)
6. Bosnian (11.75)
7. Greek_Thessaly (12.19)
8. Romanian (12.46)

If you don't mind my asking, do your "modern" scores make sense to you?

I ask because, like the Eurogenes calculators upon which it is undoubtedly based, no matter what they say, it gives me terrible "modern" scores, the worst I get with any calculator.

It's one of the reasons I don't fully trust the ancient scores they produce all that much either. If they're wrong with moderns, how accurate can the ancient distances be? Then, there's the fact that they so conflict with my scores with the new ancient dodecad calculator.

Regio X
31-05-20, 16:21
If you don't mind my asking, do your "modern" scores make sense to you?

I ask because, like the Eurogenes calculators upon which it is undoubtedly based, no matter what they say, it gives me terrible "modern" scores, the worst I get with any calculator.

It's one of the reasons I don't fully trust the ancient scores they produce all that much either. If they're wrong with moderns, how accurate can the ancient distances be? Then, there's the fact that they so conflict with my scores with the new ancient dodecad calculator.Angela, have you tried the G25 averages (http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled-averages.htm)? Since you don't have your coordinates (I don't have mine either), you could try to use some sources as targets (for example, Tuscans and Ligurians - either averages or individuals (http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled.htm)), and see what it shows. What I think a bit strange is that they're not that close to each other in G25 as they are to other Italian pops.

Angela
31-05-20, 17:21
Angela, have you tried the G25 averages (http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled-averages.htm)? Since you don't have your coordinates (I don't have mine either), you could try to use some sources as targets (for example, Tuscans and Ligurians - either averages or individuals (http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled.htm)), and see what it shows. What I think a bit strange is that they're not that close to each other in G25 as they are to other Italian pops.

I'd be happy to give it a try, if you tell me what the numbers mean, i.e. the "headings" for the columns, and how to compare myself to them. I've never looked at it before.

Ligurians:
Italian_Liguria,0.113823,0.146236,0.027153,-0.011951,0.029236,-0.002231,0.00235,0.001154,0.009613,0.025331,-0.009743,0.002847,-0.013082,0.001101,-0.001086,-0.012463,-0.00665,-0.00038,0.003771,0.00075,-0.00025,0.000989,0.003944,0.000723,0.000599

Tuscans:
an_Tuscany,0.1186036,0.1487413,0.0136014,-0.0204997,0.0261587,-0.0090546,-0.00047,-0.0013845,0.0074991,0.0238972,-0.0002273,0.0054552,-0.0118631,-0.0045965,-0.0023797,-0.0002917,0.0040332,0.0004815,0.0038463,-0.0023929,-0.0012063,0.0024647,-0.0010436,0.00388,-0.0015885

As I'd heard, he doesn't bother to include an Emilian source; almost as if he doesn't want to make it easy for me, as if I would ever use his tool.

Does he even bother to list the sources for these populations, the data for each individual?

If it's true, as I've also heard, that he only has one source for Liguria, and that one is from Genova, then I wouldn't expect a really close relationship to Toscana, although not a really distant one either.

You know what it's like in Italy. The genetics can be different in different parts of the same province politically. That's how much variation there is in Italy. The greater area around La Spezia was always part of the Lunigiana. Only relatively late in history did the Genovese take it over. That's reflected in the language. Some linguists in La Spezia hold that "Spezzino" and Sarzanese, and the "dialect" spoken in Lerici are not precisely "Ligurian", but rather "languages of transition". Spezzino has been described, if I remember it correctly, as "Emiliano un po' ligurizatto". Lunigianese itself is a "dialect" or" language" of transition, Emiliano influenced by Toscano and Reggiano/Modenese as parts of it changed hands numerous times over history and also by Ligurian by influences from the coastal areas. So, you have a situation where the further north you go in the Lunigiana the more Emilian the dialect, west of the Magra River and down near Sarzana and the border with "political" Liguria, themore Ligurian influence, and east of the Magra and into the Apuan Alps, the more Tuscan the influence.

The people are equally mixed and it started far earlier in time than even the genetics of the grandparents of the Spezzini would show. The surnames reflect it all. Many of the ones in eastern Liguria are found as or more frequently in Emilia and northwestern Toscana than in, say, Savona.

I guess that's a long way of saying that I know the people from these areas might not be "really" close to, say, a sample from Genova, or a sample from Parma, or a sample from Siena, much less a person with ancestry from all three parts of the larger area, but some calculators do seem to do a better job them others.

This sort of explains what I'm talking about, and why I don't quite "fit" the standard references, given I have two Emilian grandparents (but from the Appennino Tosco-Emiliano), one from the hinterland of La Spezia (but still technically Liguria, and west of the Magra), and one from the "middle" Lunigiana.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunezia

Too much information, but I know you'll "get" it.

Carlos
31-05-20, 17:31
Target: Karlos_scaled
Distance: 4.5454% / 0.04545366


100.0
Italian_Liguria







Distance to:
Karlos_scaled


0.04545366
Italian_Liguria


0.05726834
an_Tuscany




Posting coordinates is like adding rice to pigeons.

Palermo Trapani
31-05-20, 17:55
Angela, have you tried the G25 averages (http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled-averages.htm)? Since you don't have your coordinates (I don't have mine either), you could try to use some sources as targets (for example, Tuscans and Ligurians - either averages or individuals (http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled.htm)), and see what it shows. What I think a bit strange is that they're not that close to each other in G25 as they are to other Italian pops.

Regio X: I read your post to Angela. I don't have my G25 coordinates either but I did use the Sicilian average and individual coordinates as the "Target" and ran the distances. The average Coordinates are pretty clear, Sicilian_West an Sicilian_East but do you know where the respective individual samples come from. For example, Sicilian_West Average is broken up to Sicilian_West10H, Sicilian_West4H and Sicilian_West7H while Sicilian_East Average is broken up to Siciian_East8H, Sicilian_East5H and Sicilian_East2H.

Thanks in advance, PT

bigsnake49
31-05-20, 18:25
If you don't mind my asking, do your "modern" scores make sense to you?

I ask because, like the Eurogenes calculators upon which it is undoubtedly based, no matter what they say, it gives me terrible "modern" scores, the worst I get with any calculator.

It's one of the reasons I don't fully trust the ancient scores they produce all that much either. If they're wrong with moderns, how accurate can the ancient distances be? Then, there's the fact that they so conflict with my scores with the new ancient dodecad calculator.

It's just for fun. For me it's kind of strange that my top score is Greek but Greek_Thessaly is at the bottom just above Romanian and below Bosnian. My own gut feeling is that I am a mix between Greek and local Thracian. In autosomal tests I come out 70% Greek and 30% Eastern Europe with no other info on Eastern Europe admix. I have looked at my matches in different commercial services and their admix is approximately the same as mine on both sides of my family. I should not have been surprised since the two villages my grandparents came from were barely 15km apart.

Isn't the modern calculator they (mytrueancestry.com) use based on Eurogenes K15? Or is it K13? See if you can compare your mytrueancestry.com with the vahaduo k13 or K15.

Regio X
31-05-20, 18:34
I'd be happy to give it a try, if you tell me what the numbers mean, i.e. the "headings" for the columns, and how to compare myself to them. I've never looked at it before.

Ligurians:
Italian_Liguria,0.113823,0.146236,0.027153,-0.011951,0.029236,-0.002231,0.00235,0.001154,0.009613,0.025331,-0.009743,0.002847,-0.013082,0.001101,-0.001086,-0.012463,-0.00665,-0.00038,0.003771,0.00075,-0.00025,0.000989,0.003944,0.000723,0.000599

Tuscans:
an_Tuscany,0.1186036,0.1487413,0.0136014,-0.0204997,0.0261587,-0.0090546,-0.00047,-0.0013845,0.0074991,0.0238972,-0.0002273,0.0054552,-0.0118631,-0.0045965,-0.0023797,-0.0002917,0.0040332,0.0004815,0.0038463,-0.0023929,-0.0012063,0.0024647,-0.0010436,0.00388,-0.0015885

As I'd heard, he doesn't bother to include an Emilian source; almost as if he doesn't want to make it easy for me, as if I would ever use his tool.

Does he even bother to list the sources for these populations, the data for each individual?

If it's true, as I've also heard, that he only has one source for Liguria, and that one is from Genova, then I wouldn't expect a really close relationship to Toscana, although not a really distant one either.

You know what it's like in Italy. The genetics can be different in different parts of the same province politically. That's how much variation there is in Italy. The greater area around La Spezia was always part of the Lunigiana. Only relatively late in history did the Genovese take it over. That's reflected in the language. Some linguists in La Spezia hold that "Spezzino" and Sarzanese, and the "dialect" spoken in Lerici are not precisely "Ligurian", but rather "languages of transition". Spezzino has been described, if I remember it correctly, as "Emiliano un po' ligurizatto". Lunigianese itself is a "dialect" or" language" of transition, Emiliano influenced by Toscano and Reggiano/Modenese as parts of it changed hands numerous times over history and also by Ligurian by influences from the coastal areas. So, you have a situation where the further north you go in the Lunigiana the more Emilian the dialect, west of the Magra River and down near Sarzana and the border with "political" Liguria, themore Ligurian influence, and east of the Magra and into the Apuan Alps, the more Tuscan the influence.

The people are equally mixed and it started far earlier in time than even the genetics of the grandparents of the Spezzini would show. The surnames reflect it all. Many of the ones in eastern Liguria are found as or more frequently in Emilia and northwestern Toscana than in, say, Savona.

I guess that's a long way of saying that I know the people from these areas might not be "really" close to, say, a sample from Genova, or a sample from Parma, or a sample from Siena, much less a person with ancestry from all three parts of the larger area, but some calculators do seem to do a better job them others.

This sort of explains what I'm talking about, and why I don't quite "fit" the standard references, given I have two Emilian grandparents (but from the Appennino Tosco-Emiliano), one from the hinterland of La Spezia (but still technically Liguria, and west of the Magra), and one from the "middle" Lunigiana.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunezia

Too much information, but I know you'll "get" it.The coordinates per se don't matter that much.

Here is the idea. Firstly you open the modern averages:
http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled-averages.htm

You keep the sources as they are. No need to change them. In the target, you can either inform the average of, say, Tuscany, which is in the same link (just copy the line for Tuscany in the source and paste it in the target), or you can inform as targets the Tuscan individuals separately, in http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled.htm; also copying them from the sources and pasting them as target (pasting in the first page you opened - that one with averages as sources). Feel free to add as target any other coordinate you want.

Once you have done that, you can go to "Distance" and click on "Run All". It works as an Oracle.

This is the associated PCA (there is a zoom, and you can also filter by area; I selected here "Europe 1"): https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#Europe1

But you're right. Liguria has only one sample associated (I've no idea on where it comes from), as you can see in the second link I posted above, which possibly explains the relatively high distance to Tuscany compared to other areas.

And thanks for your explanations. Very interesting! Your area seems really peculiar, with mountains and two other regions bordering, with their own peculiarities, but also a bit heterogeneous themselves. Do you generally plot closer to Emilians, Tuscans or Ligurians then?
Btw, my father's paternal grandmother was born in Mantova province, Lombardy. Not sure it makes any difference in these tools. Anyway, I also have ancestry from different areas inside Veneto, and it's possible they would tend to plot differently. Not sure.

@Palermo
Sorry. I don't know where the samples come from.

bigsnake49
31-05-20, 18:48
I'd be happy to give it a try, if you tell me what the numbers mean, i.e. the "headings" for the columns, and how to compare myself to them. I've never looked at it before.

Ligurians:
Italian_Liguria,0.113823,0.146236,0.027153,-0.011951,0.029236,-0.002231,0.00235,0.001154,0.009613,0.025331,-0.009743,0.002847,-0.013082,0.001101,-0.001086,-0.012463,-0.00665,-0.00038,0.003771,0.00075,-0.00025,0.000989,0.003944,0.000723,0.000599

Tuscans:
an_Tuscany,0.1186036,0.1487413,0.0136014,-0.0204997,0.0261587,-0.0090546,-0.00047,-0.0013845,0.0074991,0.0238972,-0.0002273,0.0054552,-0.0118631,-0.0045965,-0.0023797,-0.0002917,0.0040332,0.0004815,0.0038463,-0.0023929,-0.0012063,0.0024647,-0.0010436,0.00388,-0.0015885

As I'd heard, he doesn't bother to include an Emilian source; almost as if he doesn't want to make it easy for me, as if I would ever use his tool.

Does he even bother to list the sources for these populations, the data for each individual?

If it's true, as I've also heard, that he only has one source for Liguria, and that one is from Genova, then I wouldn't expect a really close relationship to Toscana, although not a really distant one either.

You know what it's like in Italy. The genetics can be different in different parts of the same province politically. That's how much variation there is in Italy. The greater area around La Spezia was always part of the Lunigiana. Only relatively late in history did the Genovese take it over. That's reflected in the language. Some linguists in La Spezia hold that "Spezzino" and Sarzanese, and the "dialect" spoken in Lerici are not precisely "Ligurian", but rather "languages of transition". Spezzino has been described, if I remember it correctly, as "Emiliano un po' ligurizatto". Lunigianese itself is a "dialect" or" language" of transition, Emiliano influenced by Toscano and Reggiano/Modenese as parts of it changed hands numerous times over history and also by Ligurian by influences from the coastal areas. So, you have a situation where the further north you go in the Lunigiana the more Emilian the dialect, west of the Magra River and down near Sarzana and the border with "political" Liguria, themore Ligurian influence, and east of the Magra and into the Apuan Alps, the more Tuscan the influence.

The people are equally mixed and it started far earlier in time than even the genetics of the grandparents of the Spezzini would show. The surnames reflect it all. Many of the ones in eastern Liguria are found as or more frequently in Emilia and northwestern Toscana than in, say, Savona.

I guess that's a long way of saying that I know the people from these areas might not be "really" close to, say, a sample from Genova, or a sample from Parma, or a sample from Siena, much less a person with ancestry from all three parts of the larger area, but some calculators do seem to do a better job them others.

This sort of explains what I'm talking about, and why I don't quite "fit" the standard references, given I have two Emilian grandparents (but from the Appennino Tosco-Emiliano), one from the hinterland of La Spezia (but still technically Liguria, and west of the Magra), and one from the "middle" Lunigiana.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunezia

Too much information, but I know you'll "get" it.

Sometimes, when people come from two sides of a mountain range they tend to have different genetics. Just remember that back then transportation was a much more daunting endeavor particularly for mountain people. It's one thing to go from the high mountains to the foothills and completely another to go to the other side of the mountain range. Over the years there is a lot of genetic and linguistic drift.

Salento
31-05-20, 18:50
... so, if for example I clearly match a modern population ... let’s say from dod K12b, I could theoretically borrow the G25 coordinates of the same population and get my General G25 Results.

... that’s cheating, lol :grin: and ... not my real results!

... but anyway:

my real top dod K12 modern results :)


Distance to:
S_dod_k12


3.13945983
Italy_Apulia


4.78208110
Italy_Abruzzo




Average Modern Apulia G25 coordinates:



Puglia Scaled G25:

Italian_Apulia,0.1107119,0.1482673,-0.0037713,-0.0401381,0.0158388,-0.0151159,-0.0009557,-0.0016153,0.0027951,0.0206898,-0.0002273,0.0038765,-0.0064717,0.0011929,-0.0081071,-0.0038982,0.0016691,0.0005997,0.0027485,-0.0051524,-0.0038098,0.0019619,0.0017584,0.0014379,-0.0005667

Puglia Unscaled G25:

Italian_Apulia,0.0097267,0.0146,-0.001,-0.0124267,0.0051467,-0.00542,-0.0004067,-7e-04,0.0013667,0.0113533,-0.00014,0.0025867,-0.0043533,0.0008667,-0.0059733,-0.00294,0.00128,0.0004733,0.0021867,-0.00412,-0.0030533,0.0015867,0.0014267,0.0011933,-0.0004733

Palermo Trapani
31-05-20, 19:14
Regio_X:

Ok, thanks for the reply.

Cheers

Salento
31-05-20, 19:44
Experiment:

G25-Apulia-sample ... K36-like G25 Model vs my K36 similarity map

Almost: the Apulia-G25 gets one of my Top 2 places, (Lazio).

... somewhat similar, I think.

https://i.imgur.com/dYB4smv.jpg


my map:
https://i.imgur.com/dg9DFqc.jpg

Angela
31-05-20, 19:54
The coordinates per se don't matter that much.

Here is the idea. Firstly you open the modern averages:
http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled-averages.htm

You keep the sources as they are. No need to change them. In the target, you can either inform the average of, say, Tuscany, which is in the same link (just copy the line for Tuscany in the source and paste it in the target), or you can inform as targets the Tuscan individuals separately, in http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled.htm; also copying them from the sources and pasting them as target (pasting in the first page you opened - that one with averages as sources). Feel free to add as target any other coordinate you want.

Once you have done that, you can go to "Distance" and click on "Run All". It works as an Oracle.

This is the associated PCA (there is a zoom, and you can also filter by area; I selected here "Europe 1"): https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#Europe1

But you're right. Liguria has only one sample associated (I've no idea on where it comes from), as you can see in the second link I posted above, which possibly explains the relatively high distance to Tuscany compared to other areas.

And thanks for your explanations. Very interesting! Your area seems really peculiar, with mountains and two other regions bordering, with their own peculiarities, but also a bit heterogeneous themselves. Do you generally plot closer to Emilians, Tuscans or Ligurians then?
Btw, my father's paternal grandmother was born in Mantova province, Lombardy. Not sure it makes any difference in these tools. Anyway, I also have ancestry from different areas inside Veneto, and it's possible they would tend to plot differently. Not sure.

@Palermo
Sorry. I don't know where the samples come from.

La Lunigiana e' al confino di Liguria, Toscana e Emilia. However, La Spezia is only partially of Liguria, imo. Other people say it's a region al confine di Liguria, Toscana e Emilia. You can see it by the influence of languages, the food (Ours is so good because we're influenced by all three. :)) even in the houses, the artifacts, and perhaps even the phenotype of the people.

What has surprised me about the genetics is that I thought the two sets of mountains, as you say, and even the river, which created a bit of a language border (it was even the administrative border of the Romans) would have created a bigger "break" in the genetics, rather than the cline which I think exists. Whether that was always the case because of the ancient road through the mountains from the Parmense to the sea whether for salt, wheat, or pilgrims, or became much more predominant in more recent times, say, in the 1800s, I don't know. There's even a difference in physical appearance, with the upper Lunigiana having one of the higher rates of blondism in Italy, and the coast darker.

For my father's villages I tend to think they were always different, different even from the residents of Parma itself; drift alone would account for it. Paved roads only went in during the 1920s. (The first settlements were in 900-1000 AD) Before that it was by mule track, and the Bishop's representatives showing up every decade or so in the larger administrative villages, so how much admixing could there have been? Cavalli Sforza had a reason for choosing those villages as the source for his book on genetic drift in Italy.

Anyway, I took a look at the samples. Since I can't input my own coordinates, having never paid Eurogenes for them, it's not going to tell me much. Plus, I think all he did was use the "Sizzi" samples that are at Vahaduo, where I come out Corsican and then equidistant to all three provinces, so let's say I'm not impressed by the representativeness of the samples. :)

These are my results from one of the Dodecad at gedmatch:


#
Population (source)
Distance


1
TSI30 (Metspalu)
3.45


2
Tuscan (HGDP)
5.11


3
North_Italian (HGDP)
5.58


4
N_Italian (Dodecad)
5.74


5
O_Italian (Dodecad)
7.96


6
C_Italian (Dodecad)
8.13


7
Baleares (1000Genomes)
14.18


8
Greek (Dodecad)
15.98


9
Sicilian (Dodecad)
16.08


10
Galicia (1000Genomes)
16.2


11
S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)
16.32



TSI is from north of Firenze, yes?

This is MDLP-I'm pretty sure the "Piedmont" source is actually the set of samples from the mountainous border land between Piemonte, Lombardia, and Emilia from villages which became part of Piemonte very late, and speak mountain Ligurian dialects and even have Ligure in all the names of the villages. It might approximate mountain Emilians. It's impossible for me to say unless someone from the Appennino Tosco-Emiliano near the Parco dei Cento ran this gedmatch calculator. I don't know which Tuscan source he used. Probably not TSI?


#
Population (source)
Distance


1
Italian_Piedmont ( )
5.28


2
Italian_Bergamo ( )
5.95


3
Italian_Tuscan ( )
7.33


4
Italian_North ( )
7.82


5
Italian_Abruzzo ( )
11.68


6
Sicilian_Trapani ( )
13.63


7
Spanish_Baleares_IBS ( )
14.21


8
German-Volga ( )
14.35


9
South_German ( )
14.61


10
Maltese ( )
14.73


11
Sicilian_West ( )
15.24



This is from Vahaduo:


3.35070082
France_Corsica


5.88253772
Italy_Tuscany


6.05046701
Italy_Emilia


6.46549999
Italy_Liguria


7.41275253
Italy_Romagna


7.49533572
Italy_Lombardy


9.37771817
Italy_Marche


9.40447500
Italy_Piedmont


9.81684050
Italy_Veneto


10.41448482
Italy_Lazio


11.46905892
Swiss_Italian


12.79029632
Italy_Trentino


12.93960726
Italy_FriuliVG


14.31793630
Albanian_Kosovo


14.65967257
Albanian_North


14.71938139
Italy_Aosta_Valley


14.73174123
Italy_Abruzzo


15.70859319
Baleares


16.70817483
Italy_Campania


17.33728895
Italy_Apulia


17.44167136
Greek


17.66150517
Italy_Sicily


18.04604943
Galicia


18.38794442
Turk_Macedonia


18.48941589
Extremadura



It doesn't seem possible that's the same Piemonte sample that was used above. Probably other "Sizzi" stuff from more western Piemonte?

I seem to be equally distant from all three provinces: Emilia, Toscana, and Liguria. I'm an orphan. :)

I'm ignoring the Corsica number. There are no Corsicans in my ancestry. Maybe whoever is is (one sample again) is from a part of Corsica heavily settled by Tuscans and Ligurians, or he has some recent ancestry from those areas and/or France. The guy who collected it would have to investigate.

For what it's worth there was a PCA posted with all these samples, I think by you, and if I remember correctly, I was closest to the most northern Of the Tuscan samples, and the most southern of the Bergamo samples, which of course makes sense.

You can see why my distance of 2 or 3 to some ancient samples from Pannonia and Piemonte are so surprising to me.

bigsnake49
31-05-20, 20:09
Duplicate, delete.

bigsnake49
31-05-20, 20:14
La Lunigiana e' al confino di Liguria, Toscana e Emilia. However, La Spezia is only partially of Liguria, imo. Other people say it's a region al confine di Liguria, Toscana e Emilia. You can see it by the influence of languages, the food (Ours is so good because we're influenced by all three. :)) even in the houses, the artifacts, and perhaps even the phenotype of the people.

What has surprised me about the genetics is that I thought the two sets of mountains, as you say, and even the river, which created a bit of a language border (it was even the administrative border of the Romans) would have created a bigger "break" in the genetics, rather than the cline which I think exists. Whether that was always the case because of the ancient road through the mountains from the Parmense to the sea whether for salt, wheat, or pilgrims, or became much more predominant in more recent times, say, in the 1800s, I don't know. There's even a difference in physical appearance, with the upper Lunigiana having one of the higher rates of blondism in Italy, and the coast darker.

For my father's villages I tend to think they were always different, different even from the residents of Parma itself; drift alone would account for it. Paved roads only went in during the 1920s. (The first settlements were in 900-1000 AD) Before that it was by mule track, and the Bishop's representatives showing up every decade or so in the larger administrative villages, so how much admixing could there have been? Cavalli Sforza had a reason for choosing those villages as the source for his book on genetic drift in Italy.

Anyway, I took a look at the samples. Since I can't input my own coordinates, having never paid Eurogenes for them, it's not going to tell me much. Plus, I think all he did was use the "Sizzi" samples that are at Vahaduo, where I come out Corsican and then equidistant to all three provinces, so let's say I'm not impressed by the representativeness of the samples. :)

These are my results from one of the Dodecad at gedmatch:


#
Population (source)
Distance


1
TSI30 (Metspalu)
3.45


2
Tuscan (HGDP)
5.11


3
North_Italian (HGDP)
5.58


4
N_Italian (Dodecad)
5.74


5
O_Italian (Dodecad)
7.96


6
C_Italian (Dodecad)
8.13


7
Baleares (1000Genomes)
14.18


8
Greek (Dodecad)
15.98


9
Sicilian (Dodecad)
16.08


10
Galicia (1000Genomes)
16.2


11
S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)
16.32



TSI is from north of Firenze, yes?

This is MDLP-I'm pretty sure the "Piedmont" source is actually the set of samples from the mountainous border land between Piemonte, Lombardia, and Emilia from villages which became part of Piemonte very late, and speak mountain Ligurian dialects and even have Ligure in all the names of the villages. It might approximate mountain Emilians. It's impossible for me to say unless someone from the Appennino Tosco-Emiliano near the Parco dei Cento ran this gedmatch calculator. I don't know which Tuscan source he used. Probably not TSI?


#
Population (source)
Distance


1
Italian_Piedmont ( )
5.28


2
Italian_Bergamo ( )
5.95


3
Italian_Tuscan ( )
7.33


4
Italian_North ( )
7.82


5
Italian_Abruzzo ( )
11.68


6
Sicilian_Trapani ( )
13.63


7
Spanish_Baleares_IBS ( )
14.21


8
German-Volga ( )
14.35


9
South_German ( )
14.61


10
Maltese ( )
14.73


11
Sicilian_West ( )
15.24



This is from Vahaduo:


3.35070082
France_Corsica


5.88253772
Italy_Tuscany


6.05046701
Italy_Emilia


6.46549999
Italy_Liguria


7.41275253
Italy_Romagna


7.49533572
Italy_Lombardy


9.37771817
Italy_Marche


9.40447500
Italy_Piedmont


9.81684050
Italy_Veneto


10.41448482
Italy_Lazio


11.46905892
Swiss_Italian


12.79029632
Italy_Trentino


12.93960726
Italy_FriuliVG


14.31793630
Albanian_Kosovo


14.65967257
Albanian_North


14.71938139
Italy_Aosta_Valley


14.73174123
Italy_Abruzzo


15.70859319
Baleares


16.70817483
Italy_Campania


17.33728895
Italy_Apulia


17.44167136
Greek


17.66150517
Italy_Sicily


18.04604943
Galicia


18.38794442
Turk_Macedonia


18.48941589
Extremadura



It doesn't seem possible that's the same Piemonte sample that was used above. Probably other "Sizzi" stuff from more western Piemonte?

I seem to be equally distant from all three provinces: Emilia, Toscana, and Liguria. I'm an orphan. :)

I'm ignoring the Corsica number. There are no Corsicans in my ancestry. Maybe whoever is is (one sample again) is from a part of Corsica heavily settled by Tuscans and Ligurians, or he has some recent ancestry from those areas and/or France. The guy who collected it would have to investigate.

For what it's worth there was a PCA posted with all these samples, I think by you, and if I remember correctly, I was closest to the most northern Of the Tuscan samples, and the most southern of the Bergamo samples, which of course makes sense.

You can see why my distance of 2 or 3 to some ancient samples from Pannonia and Piemonte are so surprising to me.

I know the feeling about being an orphan Angela. Depending on the samples they have you could be close to different populations. Probably modeled better as a mix of them.

Palermo Trapani
31-05-20, 20:25
Salento: Have you run the individual samples yet and compared it to your Dodecad 12B modern. I think there are like 15 different samples from Apulia in the G25 Individual. I don't know which regions of Puglia they are from. There are 6 samples from Sicily in that same spreadsheet, and again, not sure where they are from other than 3 of West and 3 are East.

Angela
31-05-20, 20:37
I know the feeling about being an orphan Angela. Depending on the samples they have you could be close to different populations.

The funny part is that if I put the place where I was born on a map, it's close to being just about equidistant from Parma, Genova, and someplace northwest of Florence.

https://i.imgur.com/DxqdrHM.png

Salento
31-05-20, 21:59
Salento: Have you run the individual samples yet and compared it to your Dodecad 12B modern. I think there are like 15 different samples from Apulia in the G25 Individual. I don't know which regions of Puglia they are from. There are 6 samples from Sicily in that same spreadsheet, and again, not sure where they are from other than 3 of West and 3 are East.

... not yet, I just ran the Modern Average, ...

I thought my K36 similarities map was kind of weird, but when compared with the G25 Average sample, it’s actually not that different.

bigsnake49
31-05-20, 22:04
... not yet, I just ran the Modern Average, ...

I thought my K36 similarities map was kind of weird, but when compared with the G25 Average sample, it’s actually not that different.

Yeah I thought your similarities map was a bit strange because of the 80's in Lazzio and Cyclades Islands in Greece.

Salento
31-05-20, 23:05
Yeah I thought your similarities map was a bit strange because of the 80's in Lazzio and Cyclades Islands in Greece.
that map was from a Combined file, below is an original from Ancestry, and it is even closer to the G25 Apulian,

I picked the first map because imho is a better fit for me, but I could be wrong, and I’m closer to Lazio.

https://i.imgur.com/dNi4lqX.jpg

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34142-Tool-for-K36-your-similarities-rates-on-maps?p=571524&viewfull=1#post571524 (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34142-Tool-for-K36-your-similarities-rates-on-maps?p=571524&viewfull=1#post571524)

Regio X
31-05-20, 23:56
Experiment:

G25-Apulia-sample ... K36-like G25 Model vs my K36 similarity map

Almost: the Apulia-G25 gets one of my Top 2 places, (Lazio).

... somewhat similar, I think.

https://i.imgur.com/dYB4smv.jpg


my map:
https://i.imgur.com/dg9DFqc.jpgHow did you do this run? When I put Apulia average, something else shows up. If those are your coordinates, then never mind. I could not check them. :)



Distance to:

Italian_Apulia


0.00762777
Italian_Basilicata


0.00937691
Italian_Campania


0.00973705
Italian_Abruzzo


0.01395084
Italian_Molise


0.01529161
Sicilian_East


0.01685879
Italian_Calabria


0.01756746
Greek_Izmir


0.02022088
Italian_Lazio


0.02137402
Italian_Marche


0.02184193
Sicilian_West


0.02271044
Greek_Crete


0.02376687
Italian_Umbria


0.02387513
Ashkenazi_Poland


0.02395052
Ashkenazi_Belarussia


0.02443098
Ashkenazi_Ukraine


0.02445695
Greek_Peloponnese


0.02546236
Maltese


0.02567869
Ashkenazi_Russia


0.02674970
Ashkenazi_Lithuania


0.02775236
Ashkenazi_Germany


0.03064611

Greek_Kos


0.03121197
Greek_Thessaly



0.03275858
Italian_Tuscany


0.03410245
Italian_Jew


0.03882988
Albanian






La Lunigiana e' al confino di Liguria, Toscana e Emilia. However, La Spezia is only partially of Liguria, imo. Other people say it's a region al confine di Liguria, Toscana e Emilia. You can see it by the influence of languages, the food (Ours is so good because we're influenced by all three. :)) even in the houses, the artifacts, and perhaps even the phenotype of the people.

What has surprised me about the genetics is that I thought the two sets of mountains, as you say, and even the river, which created a bit of a language border (it was even the administrative border of the Romans) would have created a bigger "break" in the genetics, rather than the cline which I think exists. Whether that was always the case because of the ancient road through the mountains from the Parmense to the sea whether for salt, wheat, or pilgrims, or became much more predominant in more recent times, say, in the 1800s, I don't know. There's even a difference in physical appearance, with the upper Lunigiana having one of the higher rates of blondism in Italy, and the coast darker.

For my father's villages I tend to think they were always different, different even from the residents of Parma itself; drift alone would account for it. Paved roads only went in during the 1920s. (The first settlements were in 900-1000 AD) Before that it was by mule track, and the Bishop's representatives showing up every decade or so in the larger administrative villages, so how much admixing could there have been? Cavalli Sforza had a reason for choosing those villages as the source for his book on genetic drift in Italy.

Anyway, I took a look at the samples. Since I can't input my own coordinates, having never paid Eurogenes for them, it's not going to tell me much. Plus, I think all he did was use the "Sizzi" samples that are at Vahaduo, where I come out Corsican and then equidistant to all three provinces, so let's say I'm not impressed by the representativeness of the samples. :)

These are my results from one of the Dodecad at gedmatch:


#
Population (source)
Distance


1
TSI30 (Metspalu)
3.45


2
Tuscan (HGDP)
5.11


3
North_Italian (HGDP)
5.58


4
N_Italian (Dodecad)
5.74


5
O_Italian (Dodecad)
7.96


6
C_Italian (Dodecad)
8.13


7
Baleares (1000Genomes)
14.18


8
Greek (Dodecad)
15.98


9
Sicilian (Dodecad)
16.08


10
Galicia (1000Genomes)
16.2


11
S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)
16.32



TSI is from north of Firenze, yes?

This is MDLP-I'm pretty sure the "Piedmont" source is actually the set of samples from the mountainous border land between Piemonte, Lombardia, and Emilia from villages which became part of Piemonte very late, and speak mountain Ligurian dialects and even have Ligure in all the names of the villages. It might approximate mountain Emilians. It's impossible for me to say unless someone from the Appennino Tosco-Emiliano near the Parco dei Cento ran this gedmatch calculator. I don't know which Tuscan source he used. Probably not TSI?


#
Population (source)
Distance


1
Italian_Piedmont ( )
5.28


2
Italian_Bergamo ( )
5.95


3
Italian_Tuscan ( )
7.33


4
Italian_North ( )
7.82


5
Italian_Abruzzo ( )
11.68


6
Sicilian_Trapani ( )
13.63


7
Spanish_Baleares_IBS ( )
14.21


8
German-Volga ( )
14.35


9
South_German ( )
14.61


10
Maltese ( )
14.73


11
Sicilian_West ( )
15.24



This is from Vahaduo:


3.35070082
France_Corsica


5.88253772
Italy_Tuscany


6.05046701
Italy_Emilia


6.46549999
Italy_Liguria


7.41275253
Italy_Romagna


7.49533572
Italy_Lombardy


9.37771817
Italy_Marche


9.40447500
Italy_Piedmont


9.81684050
Italy_Veneto


10.41448482
Italy_Lazio


11.46905892
Swiss_Italian


12.79029632
Italy_Trentino


12.93960726
Italy_FriuliVG


14.31793630
Albanian_Kosovo


14.65967257
Albanian_North


14.71938139
Italy_Aosta_Valley


14.73174123
Italy_Abruzzo


15.70859319
Baleares


16.70817483
Italy_Campania


17.33728895
Italy_Apulia


17.44167136
Greek


17.66150517
Italy_Sicily


18.04604943
Galicia


18.38794442
Turk_Macedonia


18.48941589
Extremadura



It doesn't seem possible that's the same Piemonte sample that was used above. Probably other "Sizzi" stuff from more western Piemonte?

I seem to be equally distant from all three provinces: Emilia, Toscana, and Liguria. I'm an orphan. :)

I'm ignoring the Corsica number. There are no Corsicans in my ancestry. Maybe whoever is is (one sample again) is from a part of Corsica heavily settled by Tuscans and Ligurians, or he has some recent ancestry from those areas and/or France. The guy who collected it would have to investigate.

For what it's worth there was a PCA posted with all these samples, I think by you, and if I remember correctly, I was closest to the most northern Of the Tuscan samples, and the most southern of the Bergamo samples, which of course makes sense.

You can see why my distance of 2 or 3 to some ancient samples from Pannonia and Piemonte are so surprising to me.Very interesting. These mountains must be prone to drift, yes. Perhaps your area is a "region" apart genetically.
According to the PCA I shared, there are Italian_Northeast individuals who plot nowhere too. Likely from mountains.

Afaik the TSI are near Firenze, yes, but I don't know from where exactly. My parents and I get Tuscan as our second pop in Dodecad K12b. :)

bigsnake49
31-05-20, 23:58
that map was from a Combined file, below is an original from Ancestry, and it is even closer to the G25 Apulian,

I picked the first map because imho is a better fit for me, but I could be wrong, and I’m closer to Lazio.

https://i.imgur.com/dNi4lqX.jpg

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34142-Tool-for-K36-your-similarities-rates-on-maps?p=571524&viewfull=1#post571524 (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34142-Tool-for-K36-your-similarities-rates-on-maps?p=571524&viewfull=1#post571524)

Still strange that your closest is to Lazio and you're just as likely to be from Salento as you are from Peloponnese, Cyclades and Evoia in Greece. Are you not telling us something, Salento :grin:?
As an explanation, the Venetians had a series of castles in Nafplion (Nauplio in Italian), or Monevasia, Cyclades, and Evoia (Evia).

Salento
01-06-20, 00:22
Still strange that your closest is to Lazio and you're just as likely to be from Salento as you are from Peloponnese, Cyclades and Evoia in Greece. Are you not telling us something, Salento :grin:?

please elaborate, I have never been been in those places, ... and what is it that I’m not saying?

Palermo Trapani
01-06-20, 00:28
I ran the G25 Sicilian_West and G25_Sicilian_East as Targets vs. The G25_Target and here is what it gave me. The K36 results are my similarity(s) using my own Ancestry DNA results. The individual averages are interesting but I don't know where the 6 different Sicilian Samples are from.



Distance to:
Sicilian_West


0.01705574
Sicilian_East


0.02137064
Maltese


0.02159808
Italian_Abruzzo


0.02184193
Italian_Apulia


0.02187507
Ashkenazi_Ukraine


0.02303621
Italian_Campania


0.02317639
Ashkenazi_Poland


0.02333851
Italian_Basilicata


0.02409976
Italian_Molise


0.02466347
Italian_Lazio


0.02504179
Ashkenazi_Belarussia


0.02527071
Ashkenazi_Russia


0.02610298
Italian_Marche


0.02653814
Italian_Calabria


0.02729268
Ashkenazi_Lithuania


0.02869116
Italian_Umbria


0.02878019
Ashkenazi_Germany


0.03169877
Greek_Izmir


0.03407542
Italian_Tuscany


0.03502312
Greek_Crete


0.03572330
Italian_Jew


0.03590856
Greek_Thessaly


0.03700195
Greek_Peloponnese


0.03993268
Sephardic_Jew


0.04120246
French_Corsica





Distance to:
Sicilian_East


0.01529161
Italian_Apulia


0.01530410
Italian_Campania


0.01705574
Sicilian_West


0.01720579
Italian_Basilicata


0.01821389
Italian_Calabria


0.01975600
Italian_Abruzzo


0.02073139
Maltese


0.02179425
Ashkenazi_Poland


0.02193162
Italian_Molise


0.02197046
Ashkenazi_Ukraine


0.02410308
Ashkenazi_Belarussia


0.02453768
Ashkenazi_Germany


0.02497703
Ashkenazi_Russia


0.02585199
Greek_Crete


0.02649162
Ashkenazi_Lithuania


0.02725713
Italian_Lazio


0.02745448
Greek_Izmir


0.02848957
Italian_Marche


0.02895862
Italian_Jew


0.03190648
Italian_Umbria


0.03359257
Sephardic_Jew


0.03429898
Greek_Kos


0.03476358
Greek_Peloponnese


0.03835935
Romaniote_Jew


0.03854060
Greek_Thessaly




12137

bigsnake49
01-06-20, 00:32
please elaborate, I have never been been in those places, ... and what is it that I’m not saying?

I just went by the general areas on the map where you have a score of 79. All those areas I mentioned are close to the places on the map you have a score of 79. It just so happens that those areas had scores of Venetian castles. So what I'm joking about is that maybe you had an ancestor in the employ of the Venetians that left their progeny in those places.

Salento
01-06-20, 00:49
I just went by the general areas on the map where you have a score of 79. All those areas I mentioned are close to the places on the map you have a score of 79. It just so happens that those areas had scores of Venetian castles. So what I'm joking about is that maybe you had an ancestor in the employ of the Venetians that left their progeny in those places.

... I paid for this, got a lot more:

https://i.imgur.com/Et4Tplb.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Y8a72Xb.jpg

Palermo Trapani
01-06-20, 00:55
Salento: Interesting and nice results in post 2586. Closest to Lazio and you had some really close Republican Roman distances on MTA. Nice time series of genetic continuity in my view. What is the source of those results? In addition to Provincial Palermo and Trapani, one of my Great Grandfathers was born in a mountain town in Agrigento called Cammarrata, it is like 5,200 feet in the mountains.

Quick question, those G25 comparisons you did, are those your own coordinates are just something you came up with to do comparison as an experiment as you were alluding to in an earlier post.

Thanks, PT

Salento
01-06-20, 01:50
Salento: Interesting and nice results in post 2586. Closest to Lazio and you had some really close Republican Roman distances on MTA. Nice time series of genetic continuity in my view. What is the source of those results? In addition to Provincial Palermo and Trapani, one of my Great Grandfathers was born in a mountain town in Agrigento called Cammarrata, it is like 5,200 feet in the mountains.

Quick question, those G25 comparisons you did, are those your own coordinates are just something you came up with to do comparison as an experiment as you were alluding to in an earlier post.

Thanks, PT

The G25 coordinates are NOT mine, ... those belong to the G25 Apulian from Vahaduo G25 modern average,
... I compared his/her G25 - k36 results with my K36 similarity map results.


...#2586 Maps are from:

https://i.imgur.com/kNRX4aI.jpg

Salento
01-06-20, 02:10
... pick and choose ... (from the same file as above)
https://i.imgur.com/9hrFnqt.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/eXajaJL.jpg

Duarte
01-06-20, 02:44
Hi friends.
I think this tool of LM Genetics very cool to make a comparative analysis of the Eu K36 and MyTrueAncestry.com’s results. This is my ethnicity according to this tool, just to knowledge. I wish all a nice week.

https://i.imgur.com/rFh4MaG.png


https://i.imgur.com/PnM5ccH.png
https://i.imgur.com/pibSiNZ.png
https://i.imgur.com/aZdV5gf.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RAjegI8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2xHHdz2.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/BEn37Bo.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/PBNyR84.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/YbZY8mn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5XOfkMN.jpg

Salento
01-06-20, 03:15
How did you do this run? When I put Apulia average, something else shows up. If those are your coordinates, then never mind. I could not check them. :)



Distance to:
Italian_Apulia


0.00762777
Italian_Basilicata


0.00937691
Italian_Campania


0.00973705
Italian_Abruzzo


0.01395084
Italian_Molise


0.01529161
Sicilian_East


0.01685879
Italian_Calabria


0.01756746
Greek_Izmir


0.02022088
Italian_Lazio


0.02137402
Italian_Marche


0.02184193
Sicilian_West


0.02271044
Greek_Crete


0.02376687
Italian_Umbria


0.02387513
Ashkenazi_Poland


0.02395052
Ashkenazi_Belarussia


0.02443098
Ashkenazi_Ukraine


0.02445695
Greek_Peloponnese


0.02546236
Maltese


0.02567869
Ashkenazi_Russia


0.02674970
Ashkenazi_Lithuania


0.02775236
Ashkenazi_Germany


0.03064611
Greek_Kos


0.03121197
Greek_Thessaly


0.03275858
Italian_Tuscany


0.03410245
Italian_Jew


0.03882988
Albanian





I didn’t run your ran, lol

... got it from this page:
Eurogenes K36-like G25 Model

http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/K36-like%20model.htm

I ran this average Apulian coordinates:

Italian_Apulia,0.1107119,0.1482673,-0.0037713,-0.0401381,0.0158388,-0.0151159,-0.0009557,-0.0016153,0.0027951,0.0206898,-0.0002273,0.0038765,-0.0064717,0.0011929,-0.0081071,-0.0038982,0.0016691,0.0005997,0.0027485,-0.0051524,-0.0038098,0.0019619,0.0017584,0.0014379,-0.0005667

https://i.imgur.com/dYB4smv.jpg

Salento
01-06-20, 03:50
I ran the G25 Sicilian_West and G25_Sicilian_East as Targets vs. The G25_Target and here is what it gave me. The K36 results are my similarity(s) using my own Ancestry DNA results. The individual averages are interesting but I don't know where the 6 different Sicilian Samples are from.



Distance to:
Sicilian_West


0.01705574
Sicilian_East


0.02137064
Maltese


0.02159808
Italian_Abruzzo


0.02184193
Italian_Apulia


0.02187507
Ashkenazi_Ukraine


0.02303621
Italian_Campania


0.02317639
Ashkenazi_Poland


0.02333851
Italian_Basilicata


0.02409976
Italian_Molise


0.02466347
Italian_Lazio


0.02504179
Ashkenazi_Belarussia


0.02527071
Ashkenazi_Russia


0.02610298
Italian_Marche


0.02653814
Italian_Calabria


0.02729268
Ashkenazi_Lithuania


0.02869116
Italian_Umbria


0.02878019
Ashkenazi_Germany


0.03169877
Greek_Izmir


0.03407542
Italian_Tuscany


0.03502312
Greek_Crete


0.03572330
Italian_Jew


0.03590856
Greek_Thessaly


0.03700195
Greek_Peloponnese


0.03993268
Sephardic_Jew


0.04120246
French_Corsica





Distance to:
Sicilian_East


0.01529161
Italian_Apulia


0.01530410
Italian_Campania


0.01705574
Sicilian_West


0.01720579
Italian_Basilicata


0.01821389
Italian_Calabria


0.01975600
Italian_Abruzzo


0.02073139
Maltese


0.02179425
Ashkenazi_Poland


0.02193162
Italian_Molise


0.02197046
Ashkenazi_Ukraine


0.02410308
Ashkenazi_Belarussia


0.02453768
Ashkenazi_Germany


0.02497703
Ashkenazi_Russia


0.02585199
Greek_Crete


0.02649162
Ashkenazi_Lithuania


0.02725713
Italian_Lazio


0.02745448
Greek_Izmir


0.02848957
Italian_Marche


0.02895862
Italian_Jew


0.03190648
Italian_Umbria


0.03359257
Sephardic_Jew


0.03429898
Greek_Kos


0.03476358
Greek_Peloponnese


0.03835935
Romaniote_Jew


0.03854060
Greek_Thessaly




12137


nice results :)

... but I ran the Eurogenes K36-like G25 Model:

http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/K36-like%20model.htm

... there’s been some confusion, ... :)

Palermo Trapani
01-06-20, 03:51
Salento: Ok, I think I got it. You took the G25 modern average coordinates and put them in the Target in the G25/K36 like calculator.

Salento
01-06-20, 03:54
Salento: Ok, I think I got it. You took the G25 modern average coordinates and put them in the Target in the G25/K36 like calculator.

Yes, :good_job: :)

Palermo Trapani
01-06-20, 04:02
Salento: Following your experiment, top 20 distances. The source Populations in that spreadsheet have nothing South of Lazio. So I get Lazio as my closest distance, then Tuscany, before 2 Greek and 1 Albanian sample, which seems to be reasonably consistent with my K36 results in post #2584. Congrats, I think your experiment went quite well!!



Distance to:
Sicilian_West


0.02466347
Italian:Italian_Lazio


0.03423003
Italian:Italian_Tuscany


0.03831792
Balkan:Greek_Crete


0.03948460
Balkan:Greek


0.04335072
Balkan:Albanian


0.04444277
Italian:Swiss_Italian


0.04721869
Italian:Italian_Liguria


0.05039409
Italian:Italian_Lombardy


0.05299246
Italian:Italian_Bergamo


0.05708771
Balkan:Gagauz


0.06013053
Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Andalucia


0.06117780
Ibérian_péninsula:Portuguese


0.06143145
Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Canarias


0.06232845
East_Mediterranean:Cyprus22AJ19


0.06266712
East_Mediterranean:Cyprus24AJ19


0.06386621
Balkan:Bulgarian


0.06727670
Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon


0.06733453
East_Mediterranean:CYP19


0.06849467
East_Mediterranean:CYP2


0.06885908
Balkan:Macedonian

Stuvanè
01-06-20, 13:15
I'm in a position to always take the results of the G25 with a grain of salt, since it's incomplete with samples in my area.
So the autosomal proximity begins to wander between Liguria, Lombardy/Bergamo, Piedmont, Tuscany and the combinations become rather exotic assemblies (on balance a little better the k36-like G25 model compared to the G25 Modern Averages scaled)

G25 average scaled

Distance to: G25Stuvanè_scaled


0.02559946 Italian_Liguria
0.02578946 Italian_Lombardy
0.02784830 Italian_Piedmont
0.02890115 Greek_Thessaly
0.03085707 Italian_Marche
0.03108708 Italian_Tuscany
0.03117244 Italian_Bergamo
0.03395817 Swiss_Italian
0.03488089 Albanian
0.03593146 Italian_Veneto
0.03611197 French_Corsica
0.03679646 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03723127 Italian_Lazio
0.03774512 Italian_Umbria
0.03885696 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04076855 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04101491 Italian_Molise
0.04173885 Italian_Northeast
0.04317431 Gagauz
0.04330361 Sicilian_West
0.04422228 Italian_Apulia
0.04518076 Spanish_Menorca
0.04574888 Moldovan
0.04611094 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04625298 Sicilian_East

Target: G25Stuvanè_scaled
Distance: 1.8448% / 0.01844770


60.6 Italian_Lombardy
13.4 Italian_Liguria
9.4 Sicilian_East
6.4 Russian_Smolensk
5.6 Greek_Trabzon
4.6 Samaritan

K36-like G25 Model


Distance to: G25Stuvanè_scaled


0.02559946 Italian:Italian_Liguria
0.02578946 Italian:Italian_Lombardy
0.03117244 Italian:Italian_Bergamo
0.03136743 Italian:Italian_Tuscany
0.03395817 Italian:Swiss_Italian
0.03488089 Balkan:Albanian
0.03674054 Balkan:Greek
0.03723127 Italian:Italian_Lazio
0.04317431 Balkan:Gagauz
0.04805838 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Andalucia
0.04837068 Balkan:Bulgarian
0.05128531 Balkan:Macedonian
0.05384627 Ibérian_péninsula:Portuguese
0.05487882 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
0.06261084 France:French_Occitanie
0.06261084 Ibérian_péninsula:French_Occitanie
0.06501205 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Canarias
0.06582162 Balkan:Greek_Crete
0.06834854 France:French_South
0.07114461 France:French_Paris
0.07202104 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.07309467 North_atlantic:Belgian
0.07718567 Central_European:Austrian
0.08184306 Basque:BAS33
0.08337047 Eastern_Europe:Hungarian

Target: G25Stuvanè_scaled
Distance: 1.7589% / 0.01758910


67.8 Italian
19.6 East_Mediterranean
8.6 Eastern_Europe
2.0 North_Sea
2.0 West_Mediterranean

Palermo Trapani
01-06-20, 13:29
I'm in a position to always take the results of the G25 with a grain of salt, since it's incomplete with samples in my area.
So the autosomal proximity begins to wander between Liguria, Lombardy/Bergamo, Piedmont, Tuscany and the combinations become rather exotic assemblies (on balance a little better the k36-like G25 model compared to the G25 Modern Averages scaled)

G25 average scaled

Distance to: G25Stuvanè_scaled


0.02559946 Italian_Liguria
0.02578946 Italian_Lombardy
0.02784830 Italian_Piedmont
0.02890115 Greek_Thessaly
0.03085707 Italian_Marche
0.03108708 Italian_Tuscany
0.03117244 Italian_Bergamo
0.03395817 Swiss_Italian
0.03488089 Albanian
0.03593146 Italian_Veneto
0.03611197 French_Corsica
0.03679646 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03723127 Italian_Lazio
0.03774512 Italian_Umbria
0.03885696 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04076855 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04101491 Italian_Molise
0.04173885 Italian_Northeast
0.04317431 Gagauz
0.04330361 Sicilian_West
0.04422228 Italian_Apulia
0.04518076 Spanish_Menorca
0.04574888 Moldovan
0.04611094 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04625298 Sicilian_East

Target: G25Stuvanè_scaled
Distance: 1.8448% / 0.01844770


60.6 Italian_Lombardy
13.4 Italian_Liguria
9.4 Sicilian_East
6.4 Russian_Smolensk
5.6 Greek_Trabzon
4.6 Samaritan

K36-like G25 Model


Distance to: G25Stuvanè_scaled


0.02559946 Italian:Italian_Liguria
0.02578946 Italian:Italian_Lombardy
0.03117244 Italian:Italian_Bergamo
0.03136743 Italian:Italian_Tuscany
0.03395817 Italian:Swiss_Italian
0.03488089 Balkan:Albanian
0.03674054 Balkan:Greek
0.03723127 Italian:Italian_Lazio
0.04317431 Balkan:Gagauz
0.04805838 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Andalucia
0.04837068 Balkan:Bulgarian
0.05128531 Balkan:Macedonian
0.05384627 Ibérian_péninsula:Portuguese
0.05487882 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
0.06261084 France:French_Occitanie
0.06261084 Ibérian_péninsula:French_Occitanie
0.06501205 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Canarias
0.06582162 Balkan:Greek_Crete
0.06834854 France:French_South
0.07114461 France:French_Paris
0.07202104 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.07309467 North_atlantic:Belgian
0.07718567 Central_European:Austrian
0.08184306 Basque:BAS33
0.08337047 Eastern_Europe:Hungarian

Target: G25Stuvanè_scaled
Distance: 1.7589% / 0.01758910


67.8 Italian
19.6 East_Mediterranean
8.6 Eastern_Europe
2.0 North_Sea
2.0 West_Mediterranean

Stuvane: Looks like it does a pretty good job. How well goes G25 perform for you relative to other calculators? I have no clue how it does for me as I don't have my personal G25 coordinates.

Stuvanè
01-06-20, 15:23
Stuvane: Looks like it does a pretty good job. How well goes G25 perform for you relative to other calculators? I have no clue how it does for me as I don't have my personal G25 coordinates.

Hi Palermo,


It depends. As always, the richer (and more accurate) the set of samples is, the more the oracle works better. If there is nothing in the samples really resembling you in the autosomal, it will take the immediately following groups of peoples as a reference and play by building averages or combinations with them.
So, if Romagnols and Eastern Emilians can be modeled as descendants of mainly Protovillanovian and Villanovan substrates (with subsequent Gallic, Italic-Roman and Greek-Balkan contributions), I would tend to give credit to the computers that manage to position me in the PCA near 1) Tuscans 2) North Italians in the case of modern oracles.
In the case of the ancient oracles I seem to understand that they are quite valid especially those that approach me to the Proto-italic / Proto-picen sample of Martinsicuro, to the Italian/Roman/Tuscan-like ones of Szolad and Collegno and some Roman samples of the late imperial age, whose autosomal is now comparable to both the Tuscan and some central Italians and to the Venetic ones (or intermediate to them).


That said, for what is my personal and questionable experience I would say that the G25 (both in the version of Ancient Individual samples and of Averages ancient) gives more precise results than analogous ones that work on modern populations.
Among the various other Vahaduo calculators, the updated sets of the Dodecad and Eurogenes (ancient and modern) seem to me equally valid, more than anything else because modern Emilia and Romagna samples that are missing in G25 have been included (although Eurogenes is more discussed for various questions: in my case I would opt for the Eurogenes K13 for a number of reasons that I don't mention here).

Now I wouldn't be wrong, but I think the MTA oracle is in fact a version of Eurogenes k15 or something very similar. I cannot complain about the PCA and its oracles, but MTA has objective limits in the way it classifies or names its ancient peoples, often favoring the curiosity of its users for marketing reasons, to the detriment of historical and archaeological accuracy. It should be used very critically


:thinking:

My MTA results

Closest ancient population

Roman (6.512)
Roman + Illyrian (6.618)
Gallo-Roman + Roman (7.208)
Al-Andalus + Roman (8.368)
Roman Hispania + Roman (8.565)
Roman Hispania + Illyrian (9.632)
Gallo-Roman (11.36)
Illyrian (11.75)
Roman Hispania (14.23)
Al-Andalus (16.42)

https://mytrueancestry.com/c/image.py?&j=ymyjifuj2c&s=pcas&m=0.9736629516717579


Modern populations

1. Tuscan (8.092)
2. Kosovar (8.879)
3. North_Italian (9.731)
4. Albanian_Tosk (11.72)
5. West_Sicilian (11.97)
6. Italian_Abruzzo (12.10)
7. Greek (12.77)
8. Bulgarian (14.50)

https://mytrueancestry.com/c/image.py?&j=ymyjifuj2c&s=pcam

Palermo Trapani
01-06-20, 15:55
Stuvane: Ok, thanks for that detailed explanation. For me the Updated Dodecad 12b and Updated Eurogenes K13 works very well for me. MDLP with I think updated samples and I must admit the Eurogenes K36 looks quite accurate, although I am not sure still what all those 36 reference populations actually mean or what they are trying to capture.

Stuvanè
01-06-20, 17:24
Stuvane: Ok, thanks for that detailed explanation. For me the Updated Dodecad 12b and Updated Eurogenes K13 works very well for me. MDLP with I think updated samples and I must admit the Eurogenes K36 looks quite accurate, although I am not sure still what all those 36 reference populations actually mean or what they are trying to capture.


I am simply curious: I will tell you that I started to appreciate Eurogenes k36 only after the oracles of yourDNAportal or this tool have been associated with it (see https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm )

From YourDNAportal:

Closest population distances

Population
Distance


CL36_north-Italian
0.9910701


SZ36_north-Italian
1.1891711


SZ28_north-Italian
1.2160251


CL121__north-Italian
1.3294021


SZ43_north-Italian
1.4221923


SZ32_north-Italian
1.4702894


CL23_north-Italian
1.4754335


EMA_north-Italian_NW_54
1.512881





Population
Value


SZ28_north-Italian
24


CL121__north-Italian
16.2


SZ36_north-Italian
12.6


CL23_north-Italian
6.2


SZ18_Pannonian
6


Niederstotzingen_north-Italian_3c
5.4


CL36_north-Italian
4.6


SZ19_Italian-Balkan
2.6


EMA_north-Italian_FN_2
2.4


CL47_Alpine
2.2


BA_I9041_Mycenaean
1.6


CL38_Greek_south-Italian
1.2


LBA_Armenia_RISE412
1.2


N_Levant_AinGhazal4
1


Visigoth_Iberian_I12034
1


I3578_EMA_Andalusia
0.8


BA_Hungary_BR2
0.6


CHL_Anatolian_I1584
0.6


CL30_Greek_south-Italian
0.6


DA199HungaryMedieval
0.6


I2462_Bronze_Age_England_Kent
0.6


MN_Germany_I0559
0.6


SZ32_north-Italian
0.6


EMA_Greek_STR_300
0.4


I10851_medieval_Catalonia
0.4


I1979_Beaker_North_Italy
0.4


MBA_Germany__RISE471
0.4


N_Germany_I0048
0.4


SZ38_Longobard
0.4


SZ45_Pannonian
0.4


BA_Hungary_RISE374
0.2


BA_I9006_Mycenean
0.2


BA_Portugal_TorreVelha_32032
0.2


BA_Sydon
0.2


CHL_Armenia_I1407
0.2


CHL_Iran_I1665
0.2


CL94_Iberian
0.2


CWC_Poland_RISE1
0.2


EIA_F38_Iran
0.2


EMA_Italian_STR_502
0.2


EMA_north-Italian_NW_54
0.2


EN_Anatolia_Tepe002
0.2


I10892_Catalonia_medieval
0.2


I1388_Beaker_South_France
0.2


LBA_Armenia_RISE397
0.2


MN_Iberia_I0407
0.2


N_Germany_I0795
0.2


N_Sweden_N_Gökhem2
0.2


Scythian009_Ukraine
0.2


i3808_Morisco_Andalusia_1500AD
0.2









My perplexities (which I believe are yours too) are that I don't know how realistic it is to guess the ancestral compositions of an individual, calling into question 36 components (!). I also enjoy playing with these oracles, but the more time passes the more I realize that really effective calculators work on a more limited number of components (that's why, among other things, I prefer the Dodecad and the other Eurogenes working on smaller numbers of components).

Wanting to be even more practical, it seems to me that the most realistic calculators are those that process data with ancestral components (EEF / ENF - WHG - EHG - CHG - Levant / Natufian...), since all the peoples of western Eurasia and of the Mediterranean are essentially matched in various proportions of these archaic "ingredients", and by shifting the level from time to time you will understand that you are dealing with a southern or northern European or with a Middle Eastern ... I am just looking at the G25 ULTIMATE ANCIENT COMPONENTS by Celtíbero Itálico works essentially in this way and it seems to me to provide substantially correct results, especially in the combo of "single section"


Distance to: G25Stuvanè_scaled


0.12761894 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0746
0.12828737 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0745
0.12881803 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1098
0.13112898 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1103
0.13181645 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0708
0.13240084 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1101
0.13436836 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1099
0.13524548 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1102
0.13742110 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1100
0.13769232 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0736
0.13899570 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0724
0.14084452 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1096
0.14136237 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0709
0.14247665 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0726
0.14258646 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1583
0.14472578 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1580
0.14475626 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0727
0.14485033 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0707
0.14578671 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1097
0.14636180 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0744
0.14736294 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0723
0.15109871 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1581
0.15413088 Early_European_Farmer:GRC_N:I5427
0.19965334 Steppe_Pastoralist:RUS_Afanasievo:I11112
0.20015281 Steppe_Pastoralist:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0357


Target: G25Stuvanè_scaled
Distance: 1.8211% / 0.01821066


57.6 Early_European_Farmer
32.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
5.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
3.8 Iran_Neolithic
0.6 Early_Levantine_Farmer

Salento
01-06-20, 17:44
Hi friends.
I think this tool of LM Genetics very cool to make a comparative analysis of the Eu K36 and MyTrueAncestry.com’s results. This is my ethnicity according to this tool, just to knowledge. I wish all a nice week.

https://i.imgur.com/rFh4MaG.png


https://i.imgur.com/PnM5ccH.png
https://i.imgur.com/pibSiNZ.png
https://i.imgur.com/aZdV5gf.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/102Xq9T.png

... He made yours in 3D ... :)

https://i.imgur.com/FvwqDJf.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/pHJnH7g.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8G9QHd6.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hUndy4r.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9hrFnqt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/eXajaJL.jpg

Palermo Trapani
01-06-20, 17:49
Stuvane: I agree that explaining data with parsimonious models is always better than over specified models, all else equal, in my view.


As for the G25 ancient results, really good how it models your ancestry. I also like, as you noted, how the G25 does try to capture EEF, Steppe, WHG and Iran_Neolithic and Levant Farmer. The only calculator that I have been able to run is the older Eurogenes Hunter Gather vs. Farmer calculator. Since this G25 as Iran Neolithic component being measured apart from Early_Levant Farmer, WHG (older Eurogenes only Baltic HG used to proxy for all HG), it seems more accurate and in line with what recent research has documented. Not even sure research had documented CHG when the original Eurogenes HG vs. Farmer was put together. Duarte posted some results from an ancient calculator but he suggested it to might have some issues like the Eurogenes HG vs. Farmer.

I will confess I was not overly impressed with the earlier Eurogenes Calculators but the ones with the updated samples, both K13 and K15 are much better, as least for me. G25 from what I have seen seems to work reasonably well.

Duarte
01-06-20, 18:13
... He made yours in 3D ... :)

https://i.imgur.com/FvwqDJf.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/pHJnH7g.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8G9QHd6.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hUndy4r.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9hrFnqt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/eXajaJL.jpg

Hi @Salento. Good Morning.
3D is really cool. The visual effect is fun. But I believe that in 2D the visualization is clearer, at least for me. My brain probably doesn't handle 3D very well, lol.

Angela
01-06-20, 19:42
I'm in a position to always take the results of the G25 with a grain of salt, since it's incomplete with samples in my area.
So the autosomal proximity begins to wander between Liguria, Lombardy/Bergamo, Piedmont, Tuscany and the combinations become rather exotic assemblies (on balance a little better the k36-like G25 model compared to the G25 Modern Averages scaled)

G25 average scaled

Distance to: G25Stuvanè_scaled


0.02559946 Italian_Liguria
0.02578946 Italian_Lombardy
0.02784830 Italian_Piedmont
0.02890115 Greek_Thessaly
0.03085707 Italian_Marche
0.03108708 Italian_Tuscany
0.03117244 Italian_Bergamo
0.03395817 Swiss_Italian
0.03488089 Albanian
0.03593146 Italian_Veneto
0.03611197 French_Corsica
0.03679646 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03723127 Italian_Lazio
0.03774512 Italian_Umbria
0.03885696 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04076855 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04101491 Italian_Molise
0.04173885 Italian_Northeast
0.04317431 Gagauz
0.04330361 Sicilian_West
0.04422228 Italian_Apulia
0.04518076 Spanish_Menorca
0.04574888 Moldovan
0.04611094 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04625298 Sicilian_East

Target: G25Stuvanè_scaled
Distance: 1.8448% / 0.01844770


60.6 Italian_Lombardy
13.4 Italian_Liguria
9.4 Sicilian_East
6.4 Russian_Smolensk
5.6 Greek_Trabzon
4.6 Samaritan

K36-like G25 Model


Distance to: G25Stuvanè_scaled


0.02559946 Italian:Italian_Liguria
0.02578946 Italian:Italian_Lombardy
0.03117244 Italian:Italian_Bergamo
0.03136743 Italian:Italian_Tuscany
0.03395817 Italian:Swiss_Italian
0.03488089 Balkan:Albanian
0.03674054 Balkan:Greek
0.03723127 Italian:Italian_Lazio
0.04317431 Balkan:Gagauz
0.04805838 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Andalucia
0.04837068 Balkan:Bulgarian
0.05128531 Balkan:Macedonian
0.05384627 Ibérian_péninsula:Portuguese
0.05487882 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
0.06261084 France:French_Occitanie
0.06261084 Ibérian_péninsula:French_Occitanie
0.06501205 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Canarias
0.06582162 Balkan:Greek_Crete
0.06834854 France:French_South
0.07114461 France:French_Paris
0.07202104 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.07309467 North_atlantic:Belgian
0.07718567 Central_European:Austrian
0.08184306 Basque:BAS33
0.08337047 Eastern_Europe:Hungarian

Target: G25Stuvanè_scaled
Distance: 1.7589% / 0.01758910


67.8 Italian
19.6 East_Mediterranean
8.6 Eastern_Europe
2.0 North_Sea
2.0 West_Mediterranean

Stuvane, I can't do the G25 because I don't have the coordinates.

I don't get what you mean by the K36 G25 like model.

These are my K36 results from yDNA portal. Those northern Appennini between my father's people and my mother's people, one highly drifted, the other drifted, was quite some barrier for the small distance as the crow flies; of course, the actual route was torturous.

Closest population distances



Population

Distance



SZ36_north-Italian

1.077892



Niederstotzingen_north-Italian_3c

1.327634



CL36_north-Italian

1.36235



SZ19_Italian-Balkan

1.408242



SZ32_north-Italian

1.579661



SZ40_Italian

1.664666



CL94_Iberian

1.832403



BA_I9041_Mycenaean

1.835203







Population percentages



SZ36_north-ItalianNiederstotzingen_north-…SZ19_Italian-BalkanBA_I9041_MycenaeanSZ40_ItalianCL94_IberianI3 578_EMA_AndalusiaBA_Hungary_RISE374BA_Hungary_RISE 247
1/2



34.8%

10%
















5.6%


17.4%

17.6%

Population
Percentage


SZ36_north-Italian
34.8


Niederstotzingen_north-Italian_3c
17.6


SZ19_Italian-Balkan
17.4


BA_I9041_Mycenaean
5.6


SZ40_Italian
3.2


CL94_Iberian
3


I3578_EMA_Andalusia
2.2


BA_Hungary_RISE374
2


BA_Hungary_RISE247
1.4


BA_Hungary_RISE483
1.4


I1979_Beaker_North_Italy
1.4


Populations under 1%
10














Population

Value



SZ36_north-Italian

34.8



Niederstotzingen_north-Italian_3c

17.6



SZ19_Italian-Balkan

17.4



BA_I9041_Mycenaean

5.6



SZ40_Italian

3.2



CL94_Iberian

3



I3578_EMA_Andalusia

2.2



BA_Hungary_RISE374

2



BA_Hungary_RISE247

1.4



BA_Hungary_RISE483

1.4



I1979_Beaker_North_Italy

1.4



EMA_Italian_STR_502

1



EMA_north-Italian_FN_2

1



SZ32_north-Italian

1



Visigoth_south-Euro_mixed_I12031

1



MN_Germany_I0559

0.8



N_Levant__AinGhazal3

0.8



BA_Hungary_RISE480

0.6



CL57_north-Italian

0.6



LBA_Armenia_RISE397

0.6



BA_I9006_Mycenean

0.4



N_Germany_I0048

0.4



N_Hungary_NE4

0.4



BA_Hungary_RISE484

0.2



BA_I0070_Minoan

0.2



BA_I9033_Mycenaean

0.2



CL23_north-Italian

0.2



CL36_north-Italian

0.2



LBA_Armenia_RISE396

0.2



LBK_Germany_I0054

0.2





I still can't be modeled without some pretty significant really old sources.

Stuvanè
01-06-20, 22:33
Stuvane: I agree that explaining data with parsimonious models is always better than over specified models, all else equal, in my view.


As for the G25 ancient results, really good how it models your ancestry. I also like, as you noted, how the G25 does try to capture EEF, Steppe, WHG and Iran_Neolithic and Levant Farmer. The only calculator that I have been able to run is the older Eurogenes Hunter Gather vs. Farmer calculator. Since this G25 as Iran Neolithic component being measured apart from Early_Levant Farmer, WHG (older Eurogenes only Baltic HG used to proxy for all HG), it seems more accurate and in line with what recent research has documented. Not even sure research had documented CHG when the original Eurogenes HG vs. Farmer was put together. Duarte posted some results from an ancient calculator but he suggested it to might have some issues like the Eurogenes HG vs. Farmer.

I will confess I was not overly impressed with the earlier Eurogenes Calculators but the ones with the updated samples, both K13 and K15 are much better, as least for me. G25 from what I have seen seems to work reasonably well.

@Palermo,


for those who haven't their own G25 coordinates, the only Gedmatch calculators in some way approaching - IMO - the tools tracking down the ancestral prehistoric components, are those of puntDNAL and GedrosiaDNA. Their limit is that they seem to be highly calibrated on the populations of the Aegean, the southern Balkans, and the Caucasus / Iran ... It may be that in your case, being of Sicilian roots, they give more precise results (in their oracle I come immediately classified as Albanian. It shows the inverse problem to Eurogenes, which sometimes excessively "nordicises" "the components). But the ancestral quotes in pie seem plausible to me :)

Stuvanè
01-06-20, 22:50
Stuvane, I can't do the G25 because I don't have the coordinates.

I don't get what you mean by the K36 G25 like model.

These are my K36 results from yDNA portal. Those northern Appennini between my father's people and my mother's people, one highly drifted, the other drifted, was quite some barrier for the small distance as the crow flies; of course, the actual route was torturous.

Closest population distances



Population
Distance


SZ36_north-Italian
1.077892


Niederstotzingen_north-Italian_3c
1.327634


CL36_north-Italian
1.36235


SZ19_Italian-Balkan
1.408242


SZ32_north-Italian
1.579661


SZ40_Italian
1.664666


CL94_Iberian
1.832403


BA_I9041_Mycenaean
1.835203






Population percentages



SZ36_north-ItalianNiederstotzingen_north-…SZ19_Italian-BalkanBA_I9041_MycenaeanSZ40_ItalianCL94_IberianI3 578_EMA_AndalusiaBA_Hungary_RISE374BA_Hungary_RISE 247
1/2



34.8%

10%
















5.6%


17.4%

17.6%

Population
Percentage


SZ36_north-Italian
34.8


Niederstotzingen_north-Italian_3c
17.6


SZ19_Italian-Balkan
17.4


BA_I9041_Mycenaean
5.6


SZ40_Italian
3.2


CL94_Iberian
3


I3578_EMA_Andalusia
2.2


BA_Hungary_RISE374
2


BA_Hungary_RISE247
1.4


BA_Hungary_RISE483
1.4


I1979_Beaker_North_Italy
1.4


Populations under 1%
10














Population
Value


SZ36_north-Italian
34.8


Niederstotzingen_north-Italian_3c
17.6


SZ19_Italian-Balkan
17.4


BA_I9041_Mycenaean
5.6


SZ40_Italian
3.2


CL94_Iberian
3


I3578_EMA_Andalusia
2.2


BA_Hungary_RISE374
2


BA_Hungary_RISE247
1.4


BA_Hungary_RISE483
1.4


I1979_Beaker_North_Italy
1.4


EMA_Italian_STR_502
1


EMA_north-Italian_FN_2
1


SZ32_north-Italian
1


Visigoth_south-Euro_mixed_I12031
1


MN_Germany_I0559
0.8


N_Levant__AinGhazal3
0.8


BA_Hungary_RISE480
0.6


CL57_north-Italian
0.6


LBA_Armenia_RISE397
0.6


BA_I9006_Mycenean
0.4


N_Germany_I0048
0.4


N_Hungary_NE4
0.4


BA_Hungary_RISE484
0.2


BA_I0070_Minoan
0.2


BA_I9033_Mycenaean
0.2


CL23_north-Italian
0.2


CL36_north-Italian
0.2


LBA_Armenia_RISE396
0.2


LBK_Germany_I0054
0.2




I still can't be modeled without some pretty significant really old sources.

Angela,


good question: it's one of the unofficial G25 calculators offered on Vahaduo. I hypothesize that it "simulates" the results of the K36-based oracles, but I haven't enough information to specify or confirm it.


Maybe @mlukas can clarify it better

Salento
01-06-20, 23:58
Salento: Have you run the individual samples yet and compared it to your Dodecad 12B modern. I think there are like 15 different samples from Apulia in the G25 Individual. I don't know which regions of Puglia they are from. There are 6 samples from Sicily in that same spreadsheet, and again, not sure where they are from other than 3 of West and 3 are East.

I ran all the G25 Apulian’s at once, and non of them matched exactly my Dod K12 results.
A couple of them were close, so I’m just gonna stick with the default average Apulian, even though I’m not average, :thinking: LOL :)

Salento
02-06-20, 02:07
The line between my Roman and my Hellenic Roman is very thin :grin:

HR:
https://i.imgur.com/qeQQlan.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dg9DFqc.jpg


R:
https://i.imgur.com/dNi4lqX.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bsnwQkp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rMmx45m.jpg

Salento
02-06-20, 02:41
I just went by the general areas on the map where you have a score of 79. All those areas I mentioned are close to the places on the map you have a score of 79. It just so happens that those areas had scores of Venetian castles. So what I'm joking about is that maybe you had an ancestor in the employ of the Venetians that left their progeny in those places.

I see, so in your opinion my Great Grandpà was the Bastard son of a Venetian, LOL

... that actually could explain why Torzio and I have the same final y haplogroup, but I don’t think so :laughing:

Palermo Trapani
02-06-20, 02:44
@Palermo,


for those who haven't their own G25 coordinates, the only Gedmatch calculators in some way approaching - IMO - the tools tracking down the ancestral prehistoric components, are those of puntDNAL and GedrosiaDNA. Their limit is that they seem to be highly calibrated on the populations of the Aegean, the southern Balkans, and the Caucasus / Iran ... It may be that in your case, being of Sicilian roots, they give more precise results (in their oracle I come immediately classified as Albanian. It shows the inverse problem to Eurogenes, which sometimes excessively "nordicises" "the components). But the ancestral quotes in pie seem plausible to me :)

Ok, I am not to sure off the top of my head about those 2 calculators. I will take a look at them and compare them to Dodecad 12b updated and Eurogenes K13/K15 updated, and MDLP, all which put me in the correct Area code(s).

Palermo Trapani
02-06-20, 02:46
I ran all the G25 Apulian’s at once, and non of them matched exactly my Dod K12 results.
A couple of them were close, so I’m just gonna stick with the default average Apulian, even though I’m not average, :thinking: LOL :)

Got it, you like Lake Wobegon your definitely above Average :good_job: (Not sure that show is on any longer)

bigsnake49
02-06-20, 02:48
I see, so in your opinion my Great Grandpà was the Bastard son of a Venetian, LOL

... that actually could explain why Torzio and I have the same final y haplogroup, but I don’t think so :laughing:

I was thinking he was more like a Casanova while working for the Venetians. So you might have bastard cousins in the Greek Islands :laughing:.

Duarte
02-06-20, 03:31
I see, so in your opinion my Great Grandpà was the Bastard son of a Venetian, LOL

... that actually could explain why Torzio and I have the same final y haplogroup, but I don’t think so :laughing:

@Salento.
When I started here at Eupedia I believed to to have a bastard ancestral (one or more then one). 600,000 Portuguese arrived in the Captaincy of Minas Gerais in the middle of the 18th century, the largest European immigration to the Americas in colonial times. They arrived to organize the administration and definitively submit the Captaincy of Minas Gerais to the control of the Portuguese Crown. It was the gold rush. A few adventurers from other European countries also came. There weren't many, but they were there. Colonial America: I believe in all possibilities. But I believe that my autosomal DNA and my yDNA attest quite conclusively to a predominant ancestry of the northwest and northeast of the Iberian Peninsula. The possibility of a bastard ancestor in colonial Portuguese America, until proven otherwise, is ruled out. :thinking:
It will be? :grin:

Salento
02-06-20, 04:01
... who knows, maybe Great Grandma had a Secret ... :laughing:

Duarte
02-06-20, 04:18
... who knows, maybe Great Grandma had a Secret ... :laughing:

:rolleyes2::laughing::laughing:

Angela
02-06-20, 14:03
@Palermo,


for those who haven't their own G25 coordinates, the only Gedmatch calculators in some way approaching - IMO - the tools tracking down the ancestral prehistoric components, are those of puntDNAL and GedrosiaDNA. Their limit is that they seem to be highly calibrated on the populations of the Aegean, the southern Balkans, and the Caucasus / Iran ... It may be that in your case, being of Sicilian roots, they give more precise results (in their oracle I come immediately classified as Albanian. It shows the inverse problem to Eurogenes, which sometimes excessively "nordicises" "the components). But the ancestral quotes in pie seem plausible to me :)

They didn't work for me, putting me at huge distances to everyone except the Tuscans, and even that wasn't close.

I just think I may come from two such highly drifted populations that none of them are going to be accurate.

For my husband they were all over the place. Maybe his ancestors were inbred too. :) One made him Ashkenazi at a distance of about two or three. His partner and half his clients will be thrilled. :)

This one was interesting too. Gedrosia K12b



#

Population (source)

Distance



1

Greek

2.81



2

Sicilian

8.22




Then they start going into the 20s.

bigsnake49
02-06-20, 16:13
Yeah PuntDNAL and Gedrosia did not work for me either. This is PuntDNAL K12 Modern:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Bulgarian @ 6.579361
2 Albanian @ 6.584054
3 Greek @ 6.608196
4 Tuscan @ 9.596664
5 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 12.495791
6 Croatian @ 13.182490

K15:

1 Greek_Thessaly @ 3.955226
2 Albanian @ 5.979146
3 Greek_Central @ 6.396861
4 Montenegrin @ 6.585922
5 Italian @ 7.025706
6 Tuscan @ 7.075101
7 Bulgarian @ 7.453342

Gedrosia K12:

1 Greek @ 9.984163
2 Sicilian @ 15.655949
3 Turks_Istanbul @ 17.612869
4 Turks_Aydin @ 21.905449
5 Turks_Balikesir @ 23.263041
6 Turks_Adana @ 27.254744

Obviously South Balkan but can't decide. Most probably a mix. Gedrosia introduces Turkish in the mix, granted at 17+

@Angela, just like @Salento we will make into a Greek yet by hook or by crook (or by GedrosiaDNA:grin:)

Palermo Trapani
02-06-20, 17:36
Stuvane/Angela: My Gedrosia K12 did the same thing as Angela's. It give me Sicilian, then Greek, then #3 (Turkish_Constantinopile/Istanbul) at 19.73. Must confess not a fan of this calculator. Yes among the sample reference populations it puts me in Sicily, then Greece 2nd, but given 3rd place is almost 20, not enough reference populations. Punt DNA K12 Modern has more reference populations and it puts me in Sicily for 1 and 2, then Tuscan at about 7. Greek at 9.4 is relatively close to the Gedrosia distance of 10.3. So personally like the more broader set of reference samples in PuntDNA vs. Gedrosia

Gedrosia K12



Distance to:
PalermoTrapni


3.14070056
Sicilian


10.39294953
Greek


19.73122145
Turks_Istanbul



PuntDNA K12 Modern


Distance to:
PalermoTrapani


4.98024096
Sicilian_West


6.25482214
Sicilian_East


7.55068209
Tuscan


7.59491935
Ashkenazi_Jew


9.39536056
Turkish_Jew


9.40227632
Greek


10.34663230
Moroccan_Jew


10.72719908
Albanian


15.36856532
Libyan_Jew


15.90574739
Italian_Bergamo


16.52491452
Spanish_Canaries


17.20676611
Tunisian_Jew


17.85140891
Bulgarian


18.16295130
Cypriot


18.33774250
Spanish_Southwest


18.98269738
Turkish_Aydin

Stuvanè
02-06-20, 17:37
@Angela
@Palermo
@Bigsnake


But in fact I wouldnt't recommend puntDNAL and Gedrosia calculators for their modern oracles, which are evidently calibrated to examine mainly Middle Eastern populations. In fact, they tend to overestimate the Caucasian and Middle Eastern components.
Mine is a rustic and rough method to simulate the G25 without too many pretensions: for people of European origin I'd say to dwell only on the ancestral percentages, in particular those of Anatolian_NF and European_HG detected by Puntdnal k12. Multiplying them by a coefficient of 1.5 you should find - at a guess - the EEF and Steppe values ​​proposed in some G25 tools (the residual difference to get 100% usually flows back into WHF, Extra-CHG, Levant_natufian ... )


With all the necessary caveats, the models of the mixed more population sharing of PuntDNAL k12 ancient seem reasonable and quite acceptable: 60-65% or more of ancient European neolithic samples + ca. 35- 40% of Steppe (Poltavka/Yamnaya samples) seem to me to be fairly central values ​​in the case of northern Italians.
Let me know if it works :)

#PopulationPercent

1 Anatolian_NF 39.51
2 European_HG 25.59
3 Caucasus_HG 24.45
4 Near_East 9
5 Siberian 1.45



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

59.2%
LBK_EN_I0054
+
40.8%
Poltavka_I0440
@
3.29


2

57.7%
Stuttgart_SG
+
42.3%
Poltavka_I0440
@
3.33


3

61.2%
BattleAxe_Sweden_SG_RISE94
+
38.8%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
@
3.81


4

57.6%
LBK_EN_I0054
+
42.4%
Yamnaya_Samara_I0443
@
4


5

62.4%
Iceman_MN_SG
+
37.6%
Poltavka_I0440
@
4.18


6

60.4%
LBK_EN_I0054
+
39.6%
Yamnaya_Kalmykia_SG_RISE552
@
4.21


7

58.9%
Stuttgart_SG
+
41.1%
Yamnaya_Kalmykia_SG_RISE552
@
4.21


8

61%
Hungary_EN_I0495
+
39%
Poltavka_I0440
@
4.37


9

59.2%
Iberia_EN_I0412
+
40.8%
Poltavka_I0440
@
4.41


10

59.9%
LBK_EN_I0054
+
40.1%
Yamnaya_Samara_I0231
@
4.55


11

59.7%
BattleAxe_Sweden_SG_RISE94
+
40.3%
LBK_EN_I0054
@
4.65


12

63.5%
Iceman_MN_SG
+
36.5%
Yamnaya_Kalmykia_SG_RISE552
@
4.65


13

56.2%
Stuttgart_SG
+
43.8%
Yamnaya_Samara_I0443
@
4.66


14

57.6%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
42.4%
Poltavka_I0440
@
4.67


15

56%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
44%
Yamnaya_Samara_I0443
@
4.68


16

60.2%
LBK_EN_I0054
+
39.8%
Afanasievo_SG_RISE511
@
4.87


17

52.5%
Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386
+
47.5%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
@
4.92


18

60.4%
Iberia_EN_I0412
+
39.6%
Yamnaya_Kalmykia_SG_RISE552
@
4.93


19

58.4%
Stuttgart_SG
+
41.6%
Yamnaya_Samara_I0231
@
4.94


20

62.1%
Hungary_EN_I0495
+
37.9%
Yamnaya_Kalmykia_SG_RISE552
@
5.09

Palermo Trapani
02-06-20, 18:00
Stuvane: Ok good tip, here are my Punt DNA Ancient Single (Otzi is first) and my oracle. Of the top of my head, I don't know what period all those samples are from. But you are correct, it does a good job. I would think that the ones in the top 10 here are reflecting samples from Neolithic EEF samples with some Caucus (Armenian) Neolithic/HG type ancestry. I would appreciate your input or input from anyone who has a really good grasp on all these samples. Otzi is the only one that I can from the top of my head really describe.

Duarte
02-06-20, 18:08
With all the necessary caveats, the models of the mixed more population sharing of PuntDNAL k12 ancient seem reasonable and quite acceptable: 60-65% or more of ancient European neolithic samples + ca. 35- 40% of Steppe (Poltavka/Yamnaya samples) seem to me to be fairly central values ​​in the case of northern Italians.
Let me know if it works :)

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

59.2%
LBK_EN_I0054
+
40.8%
Poltavka_I0440
@
3.29


2

57.7%
Stuttgart_SG
+
42.3%
Poltavka_I0440
@
3.33


3

61.2%
BattleAxe_Sweden_SG_RISE94
+
38.8%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
@
3.81


4

57.6%
LBK_EN_I0054
+
42.4%
Yamnaya_Samara_I0443
@
4


5

62.4%
Iceman_MN_SG
+
37.6%
Poltavka_I0440
@
4.18


6

60.4%
LBK_EN_I0054
+
39.6%
Yamnaya_Kalmykia_SG_RISE552
@
4.21


7

58.9%
Stuttgart_SG
+
41.1%
Yamnaya_Kalmykia_SG_RISE552
@
4.21


8

61%
Hungary_EN_I0495
+
39%
Poltavka_I0440
@
4.37


9

59.2%
Iberia_EN_I0412
+
40.8%
Poltavka_I0440
@
4.41


10

59.9%
LBK_EN_I0054
+
40.1%
Yamnaya_Samara_I0231
@
4.55


11

59.7%
BattleAxe_Sweden_SG_RISE94
+
40.3%
LBK_EN_I0054
@
4.65


12

63.5%
Iceman_MN_SG
+
36.5%
Yamnaya_Kalmykia_SG_RISE552
@
4.65


13

56.2%
Stuttgart_SG
+
43.8%
Yamnaya_Samara_I0443
@
4.66


14

57.6%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
42.4%
Poltavka_I0440
@
4.67


15

56%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
+
44%
Yamnaya_Samara_I0443
@
4.68


16

60.2%
LBK_EN_I0054
+
39.8%
Afanasievo_SG_RISE511
@
4.87


17

52.5%
Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386
+
47.5%
Starcevo_MN_I0174
@
4.92


18

60.4%
Iberia_EN_I0412
+
39.6%
Yamnaya_Kalmykia_SG_RISE552
@
4.93


19

58.4%
Stuttgart_SG
+
41.6%
Yamnaya_Samara_I0231
@
4.94


20

62.1%
Hungary_EN_I0495
+
37.9%
Yamnaya_Kalmykia_SG_RISE552
@
5.09




Thank you @Stuvanè.
In my case the distances in mixed mode with three or more populations are better.


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

53%
Iceman_MN_SG
+
47%
Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00
@
6.19


2

53.9%
Hungary_CA_I1497
+
46.1%
Srubnaya_I0430
@
6.19


3

58.8%
Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97
+
41.2%
Iceman_MN_SG
@
6.22


4

60.3%
Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97
+
39.7%
Hungary_EN_I0495
@
6.26


5

62.5%
Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489
+
37.5%
Afanasievo_SG_RISE511
@
6.33


6

54.2%
Hungary_EN_I0495
+
45.8%
Srubnaya_I0232
@
6.35


7

64.9%
Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97
+
35.1%
Stuttgart_SG
@
6.36


8

53.4%
Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00
+
46.6%
Stuttgart_SG
@
6.37


9

58.8%
Hungary_CA_I1497
+
41.2%
Andronovo_SG_RISE505
@
6.37


10

62.9%
Alberstedt_LN_I0118
+
37.1%
Hungary_EN_I0495
@
6.38


11

57.3%
Hungary_CA_I1497
+
42.7%
Srubnaya_I0232
@
6.39


12

50.4%
Potapovka_I0419
+
49.6%
Hungary_EN_I0495
@
6.4


13

62.7%
Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97
+
37.3%
Iberia_EN_I0412
@
6.41


14

51.4%
Hungary_EN_I0495
+
48.6%
Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00
@
6.42


15

55.8%
Iceman_MN_SG
+
44.2%
Srubnaya_I0232
@
6.44


16

55.7%
Iceman_MN_SG
+
44.3%
Corded_Ware_Germany_I0103
@
6.45


17

61.4%
Alberstedt_LN_I0118
+
38.6%
Iceman_MN_SG
@
6.45


18

59%
Hungary_CA_I1497
+
41%
Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104
@
6.45


19

57.2%
Iceman_MN_SG
+
42.8%
Andronovo_SG_RISE505
@
6.45


20

64%
Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97
+
36%
LBK_EN_I0054
@
6.46



Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Alberstedt_LN_I0118 @ 15.669842
2 Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 @ 17.196659
3 Vatya_SG_RISE479 @ 17.624203
4 Hungary_BA_I1502 @ 18.056623
5 Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 @ 18.154741
6 Unetice_EBA_I0117 @ 18.472549
7 Bell_Beaker_Czech_RISE569 @ 20.571085
8 Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549 @ 21.105354
9 BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 @ 21.190073
10 Hungary_CA_I1497 @ 22.445066
11 Iceman_MN_SG @ 23.706524
12 BattleAxe_Sweden_SG_RISE94 @ 23.946289
13 Baalberge_MN_I0560 @ 24.363352
14 Iberia_M_ I0406 @ 24.849651
15 Potapovka_I0419 @ 24.862066
16 Epserstedt_MN_I0172 @ 24.881733
17 Hungary_EN_I0495 @ 25.209015
18 Srubnaya_I0430 @ 26.081520
19 Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00 @ 26.534245
20 Iberia_EN_I0412 @ 27.564608

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Potapovka_I0419 +50% Hungary_EN_I0495 @ 6.108054

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00 +25% Iceman_MN_SG +25% LBK_EN_I0054 @ 5.978376

Using 4 populations approximation:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Bichon + Iberia_EN_I0412 + Iberia_EN_I0412 + Armenian_MBA @ 5.854621
2 Bichon + Iberia_EN_I0412 + Iberia_EN_I0412 + Armenian_MBA @ 5.854621
3 Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549 + Andronovo_SG_RISE505 + Iceman_MN_SG + Hungary_EN_I0495 @ 5.857054
4 Andronovo_SG_RISE505 + Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 + Hungary_CA_I1497 + Iceman_MN_SG @ 5.858821
5 Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00 + Srubnaya_I0430 + Hungary_EN_I0495 + Hungary_EN_I0495 @ 5.872584
6 Andronovo_SG_RISE505 + Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 + Iceman_MN_SG + Hungary_EN_I0495 @ 5.873612
7 Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00 + Srubnaya_I0430 + Iceman_MN_SG + Hungary_EN_I0495 @ 5.898738
8 Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549 + Andronovo_SG_RISE505 + Hungary_EN_I0495 + Hungary_EN_I0495 @ 5.899479
9 Andronovo_SG_RISE505 + Alberstedt_LN_I0118 + Hungary_CA_I1497 + Iceman_MN_SG @ 5.915344
10 Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 + Srubnaya_I0430 + Hungary_CA_I1497 + Hungary_CA_I1497 @ 5.928813
11 Afanasievo_SG_RISE511 + Hungary_BA_I1502 + Iceman_MN_SG + Stuttgart_SG @ 5.928930
12 Bichon + Iceman_MN_SG + Iberia_EN_I0412 + Armenian_MBA @ 5.935550
13 Bichon + Iceman_MN_SG + Iberia_EN_I0412 + Armenian_MBA @ 5.935550
14 Andronovo_SG_RISE505 + Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 + Iceman_MN_SG + Iceman_MN_SG @ 5.935812
15 Andronovo_SG_RISE505 + Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 + Hungary_CA_I1497 + Iberia_EN_I0412 @ 5.939023
16 Andronovo_SG_RISE505 + Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 + Hungary_CA_I1497 + Hungary_EN_I0495 @ 5.948110
17 Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 + Srubnaya_I0430 + Hungary_CA_I1497 + Iceman_MN_SG @ 5.949192
18 Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00 + Potapovka_I0419 + Iceman_MN_SG + Hungary_EN_I0495 @ 5.956762
19 Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00 + Srubnaya_I0430 + Hungary_CA_I1497 + Hungary_EN_I0495 @ 5.960017
20 Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00 + Srubnaya_I0430 + Hungary_CA_I1497 + Stuttgart_SG @ 5.966040

Done.

Elapsed time 0.0582 seconds.

1 Bichon + Iberia_EN_I0412 + Iberia_EN_I0412 + Armenian_MBA @ 5.854621

WHG = Bichon
EEF = Iberia_EN
CHG = Armenian_MBA

Gabriele Pashaj
02-06-20, 19:47
12145


Those are mine !!

Salento
02-06-20, 20:31
imo, I often get inaccurate Gedmatch results, but I didn’t realize until now that Gedrosia K3 makes me 100% Spanish @ 0.000000 - ... Astonishing!

How is that possible ??? ... Somehow they got my DNA and mislabeled it? ... my twin? my clone? a coincidence?

But I knew that the Gedrosia Anc.Eurasia K6 makes me 100% Italian_South!
weird, maybe somehow my RAW-Data is being used without my permission, maybe!

https://i.imgur.com/IvIN7qu.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/AW9JIyW.jpg

Duarte
02-06-20, 21:44
imo, I often get inaccurate Gedmatch results, but I didn’t realize until now that Gedrosia K3 makes me 100% Spanish @ 0.000000 - ... Astonishing!
How is that possible ??? ... Somehow they got my DNA and mislabeled? ... my twin? my clone? a coincidence?
But I knew that the Gedrosia Anc.Eurasia K6 makes me 100% Italian_South!
weird, maybe somehow my RAW-Data is being used without my permission, ������ maybe!
https://i.imgur.com/IvIN7qu.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/AW9JIyW.jpg

@Salento
@ 0.000000. OMG!! lol. I believe that no Spaniard or Iberian would achieve this feat (unless you include your coordinates in the input data). Now you also could go on to consider the possibility to have many bastard ancestors considering the results of this algorithm combined with respective standard-spreadsheet of populations.
:petrified::laughing::laughing:

Salento
02-06-20, 21:54
@Salento
@ 0.000000. OMG!! lol. I believe that no Spaniard or Iberian would achieve this feat (unless you include your coordinates in the input data). Now you also could go on to consider the possibility to have many bastard ancestors considering the results of this algorithm combined with respective standard-spreadsheet of populations.

:petrified::laughing::laughing:

I should’ve been a Matador, ... or the King of Spain!

.... very strange ... :)

bigsnake49
02-06-20, 22:19
I'm getting close to 0 but not quite yet:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Armenian @ 0.265083
2 Georgian @ 0.958684
3 Assyrian @ 1.430235
4 Bulgarian @ 1.657254
5 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 1.844671
6 Iranian_Jew @ 1.926663
7 Sicilian @ 2.194615

Au contraire with Gedrosia Ancient, I achieved it with a 4 population Oracle:

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++
1 Albanian + French + Jew_Ashkenazi + Kumyk @ 0.000000
2 Assyrian + Hungarian + Hungarian + Jew_Ashkenazi @ 0.000000
3 Chechen + Druze + Estonian + Sardinian @ 0.000000
4 Druze + Estonian + Lezgin + Sardinian @ 0.000000

Angela
02-06-20, 22:27
imo, I often get inaccurate Gedmatch results, but I didn’t realize until now that Gedrosia K3 makes me 100% Spanish @ 0.000000 - ... Astonishing!

How is that possible ??? ... Somehow they got my DNA and mislabeled it? ... my twin? my clone? a coincidence?

But I knew that the Gedrosia Anc.Eurasia K6 makes me 100% Italian_South!
weird, maybe somehow my RAW-Data is being used without my permission, maybe!

https://i.imgur.com/IvIN7qu.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/AW9JIyW.jpg

So, someone who is at 2 and 3 and 4 populations all Italian South is 100% Spanish?

Um...maybe it's just a terrible calculator? :)


@Snake: Ditto. :)

So maybe my husband isn't Greek or Ashkenazi after all. :)

Salento
02-06-20, 22:30
out of curiosity, ... other Southern Italians should run Gedrosia K3 too ...

just wondering ...

at Gedrosia K3 I get 100% Spanish (my clone @ 0.000000)

at Gedrosia Ancient Eurasia K6 I get 100% Italian_South too!

Angela
02-06-20, 22:47
out of curiosity, ... other Southern Italians should run Gedrosia K3 too ...

just wondering ...

Your wish is my command. :)

My husband's:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Spanish @ 0.867597
2 Sicilian @ 0.941571
3 Cypriot @ 0.974318
4 Greek @ 1.928717
5 Albanian @ 2.417001
6 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 2.476734
7 Armenian @ 2.511045
8 Assyrian @ 2.558610
9 Bulgarian @ 2.807593
10 French @ 2.881117
11 Iraqi_Jew @ 2.917643
12 Sardinian @ 2.926925
13 French_South @ 2.996346
14 LBK_EN @ 3.089410
15 Georgian @ 3.093184
16 Bergamo @ 3.151976
17 Croatian @ 3.196975
18 English @ 3.223508
19 Czech @ 3.278074
20 Norwegian @ 3.370583

Something is definitely wrong with it.

Salento
02-06-20, 22:53
Your wish is my command. :)

My husband's:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Spanish @ 0.867597
2 Sicilian @ 0.941571
3 Cypriot @ 0.974318
4 Greek @ 1.928717
5 Albanian @ 2.417001
6 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 2.476734
7 Armenian @ 2.511045
8 Assyrian @ 2.558610
9 Bulgarian @ 2.807593
10 French @ 2.881117
11 Iraqi_Jew @ 2.917643
12 Sardinian @ 2.926925
13 French_South @ 2.996346
14 LBK_EN @ 3.089410
15 Georgian @ 3.093184
16 Bergamo @ 3.151976
17 Croatian @ 3.196975
18 English @ 3.223508
19 Czech @ 3.278074
20 Norwegian @ 3.370583

Something is definitely wrong with it.

thanks, I ran out of votes for today, I’ll vote tomorrow :)

Duarte
02-06-20, 23:20
GEDmatch Gedrosia K3 - Mine - lol

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Saudi @ 2.030982
2 Lebanese @ 2.152247
3 Yemenite_Jew @ 2.579056
4 Palestinian @ 3.894059
5 Syrian @ 4.131645
6 Jordanian @ 5.073280
7 Iraqi_Jew @ 5.370116
8 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 6.209241
9 Iranian_Jew @ 6.367769
10 Assyrian @ 6.586124
11 Cypriot @ 6.987035
12 Sicilian @ 7.033988
13 Georgian_Jew @ 7.334672
14 Armenian @ 7.690879
15 Kurd_N @ 8.376530
16 Kurd_C @ 8.657846
17 Spanish @ 8.825925
18 Georgian @ 8.916322
19 Abkhasian @ 9.458773
20 Bulgarian @ 9.628562

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% BedouinA +50% Greek @ 0.000000 (lol)
2 50% Albanian +50% BedouinA @ 0.421350
3 50% BedouinA +50% Spanish @ 0.517402
4 50% BedouinA +50% French_South @ 0.560565
5 50% BedouinA +50% French @ 0.570079
6 50% BedouinA +50% English @ 0.633081
7 50% BedouinA +50% Bergamo @ 0.643706
8 50% BedouinA +50% Sardinian @ 0.827044
9 50% BedouinA +50% LBK_EN @ 0.871586
10 50% BedouinA +50% Croatian @ 0.900738
11 50% BedouinA +50% Czech @ 0.952264
12 50% Iraqi_Jew +50% Palestinian @ 0.959639
13 50% BedouinA +50% Norwegian @ 1.092067
14 50% BedouinA +50% Bulgarian @ 1.119382
15 50% Iraqi_Jew +50% Yemenite_Jew @ 1.391651
16 50% Ashkenazi_Jew +50% Palestinian @ 1.409241
17 50% BedouinA +50% Sicilian @ 1.410521
18 50% BedouinA +50% Cypriot @ 1.437648
19 50% BedouinA +50% Hungarian @ 1.452466
20 50% BedouinA +50% Stuttgart @ 1.480392


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% BedouinA +25% Bergamo +25% Greek @ 0.000000 (lol)

Done.
Elapsed time 0.0123 seconds.

Stuvanè
02-06-20, 23:25
All in all, in my opinion it makes sense ...


@Palermo Trapani: the main share is Neolithic European (Sardinian-like: Oetzi and analogues) + a secondary "Armenian" share of the Bronze Age which almost certainly contains a robust CHG component, which arrived in southern Italy especially with the upheavals in the Mediterranean at the final Bronze Age (see Cline) and with the subsequent Greek colonization of the classical age


@ Duarte: here too the main component is almost always attributable to the usual Neolithic substrate, but as it is right to expect for those who are from the Iberian stock, this and / or the secondary quota are enriched with more or less consistent percentages of WHG


@ Gabriele: you have more or less my own "mixture", so the neolithic base + the secondary Steppe component (perhaps in your case a little more of CHG, given that Armenian sample appears)

Here I tried to run some of the samples adopted by the PunDNAL oracle on G25 using some ancestral reference components

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/101556225_304431703904434_3631670259250888704_n.pn g?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=b96e70&_nc_ohc=vXUVJvM546gAX8BCqI3&_nc_ht=scontent-mxp1-1.xx&oh=9cca6ad68d0c9c3313f4427db2c9feeb&oe=5EFB3488




@ Salento/Angela/Duarte: Gedrosia K3 is a calculator that could make sense only for some alien or for those who are a little allergic to human geography. In 3.000 years they will still ask about its actual purpose, but in practice it serves just to distinguish (badly) Africans, from Europeans, from Asians ... (according to him I would be Provencal ...) :D

Duarte
02-06-20, 23:29
All in all, in my opinion it makes sense ...


@Palermo Trapani: the main share is Neolithic European (Sardinian-like: Oetzi and analogues) + a secondary "Armenian" share of the Bronze Age which almost certainly contains a robust CHG component, which arrived in southern Italy especially with the upheavals in the Mediterranean at the final Bronze Age (see Cline) and with the subsequent Greek colonization of the classical age


@ Duarte: here too the main component is almost always attributable to the usual Neolithic substrate, but as it is right to expect for those who are from the Iberian stock, this and / or the secondary quota are enriched with more or less consistent percentages of WHG


@ Gabriele: you have more or less my own "mixture", so the neolithic base + the secondary Steppe component (perhaps in your case a little more of CHG, given that Armenian sample appears)

Here I tried to run some of the samples adopted by the PunDNAL oracle on G25 using some ancestral reference components

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/101556225_304431703904434_3631670259250888704_n.pn g?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=b96e70&_nc_ohc=vXUVJvM546gAX8BCqI3&_nc_ht=scontent-mxp1-1.xx&oh=9cca6ad68d0c9c3313f4427db2c9feeb&oe=5EFB3488




@ Salento: Gedrosia K3 is a calculator that could make sense only for some alien or for those who are a little allergic to human geography. In 3.000 years they will still ask about its actual purpose, but in practice it serves just to distinguish Africans, from Europeans, from Asians ... (according to him I would be Provencal ...) :D

Thanks Stuvanè :good_job:

Angela
02-06-20, 23:44
All in all, in my opinion it makes sense ...


@Palermo Trapani: the main share is Neolithic European (Sardinian-like: Oetzi and analogues) + a secondary "Armenian" share of the Bronze Age which almost certainly contains a robust CHG component, which arrived in southern Italy especially with the upheavals in the Mediterranean at the final Bronze Age (see Cline) and with the subsequent Greek colonization of the classical age


@ Duarte: here too the main component is almost always attributable to the usual Neolithic substrate, but as it is right to expect for those who are from the Iberian stock, this and / or the secondary quota are enriched with more or less consistent percentages of WHG


@ Gabriele: you have more or less my own "mixture", so the neolithic base + the secondary Steppe component (perhaps in your case a little more of CHG, given that Armenian sample appears)

Here I tried to run some of the samples adopted by the PunDNAL oracle on G25 using some ancestral reference components

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/101556225_304431703904434_3631670259250888704_n.pn g?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=b96e70&_nc_ohc=vXUVJvM546gAX8BCqI3&_nc_ht=scontent-mxp1-1.xx&oh=9cca6ad68d0c9c3313f4427db2c9feeb&oe=5EFB3488




@ Salento/Angela/Duarte: Gedrosia K3 is a calculator that could make sense only for some alien or for those who are a little allergic to human geography. In 3.000 years they will still ask about its actual purpose, but in practice it serves just to distinguish (badly) Africans, from Europeans, from Asians ... (according to him I would be Provencal ...) :D

I'm your neighbor. :)
Using 1 population approximation:
1 French_South @ 0.000000
2 Bergamo @ 0.501055
3 English @ 0.749153
4 French @ 1.084623
5 Albanian @ 1.218233
6 LBK_EN @ 1.276386
7 Greek @ 1.287931
8 Sardinian @ 1.291654
9 Croatian @ 1.932827
10 Spanish @ 2.004524
11 Czech @ 2.034308
12 Stuttgart @ 2.045782
13 Norwegian @ 2.371137
14 Bulgarian @ 2.793209
15 Hungarian @ 3.257035
16 Lithuanian @ 3.402356
17 Sicilian @ 3.799302
18 Georgian @ 3.836918
19 Cypriot @ 3.845514
20 Ukrainian @ 4.203940

Palermo Trapani
02-06-20, 23:44
All in all, in my opinion it makes sense ...


@Palermo Trapani: the main share is Neolithic European (Sardinian-like: Oetzi and analogues) + a secondary "Armenian" share of the Bronze Age which almost certainly contains a robust CHG component, which arrived in southern Italy especially with the upheavals in the Mediterranean at the final Bronze Age (see Cline) and with the subsequent Greek colonization of the classical age


@ Duarte: here too the main component is almost always attributable to the usual Neolithic substrate, but as it is right to expect for those who are from the Iberian stock, this and / or the secondary quota are enriched with more or less consistent percentages of WHG


@ Gabriele: you have more or less my own "mixture", so the neolithic base + the secondary Steppe component (perhaps in your case a little more of CHG, given that Armenian sample appears)

Here I tried to run some of the samples adopted by the PunDNAL oracle on G25 using some ancestral reference components

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/101556225_304431703904434_3631670259250888704_n.pn g?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=b96e70&_nc_ohc=vXUVJvM546gAX8BCqI3&_nc_ht=scontent-mxp1-1.xx&oh=9cca6ad68d0c9c3313f4427db2c9feeb&oe=5EFB3488




@ Salento/Angela/Duarte: Gedrosia K3 is a calculator that could make sense only for some alien or for those who are a little allergic to human geography. In 3.000 years they will still ask about its actual purpose, but in practice it serves just to distinguish (badly) Africans, from Europeans, from Asians ... (according to him I would be Provencal ...) :D

Following Duarte, Grazie Mille Stuvane. So I think that PuntDNA ancient is inline with the recent research documented by Raveane et al 2019, Neolithic EEF type ancestry is the dominate source, which is the case in all modern 20 Italian regions and with a strong secondary CHG/Iran Neolithic type ancestry in Southern Italy and Sicily and CHG I think extending into North of Rome.

Glad to got me to take a loot at it. I think probably the first tool that looks at Ancient DNA and gets results that I think make sense with what MTA is telling me about ancient populations and it again lines up with Raveane et al 2019 Figure 2 results.

Angela
02-06-20, 23:47
All in all, in my opinion it makes sense ...


@Palermo Trapani: the main share is Neolithic European (Sardinian-like: Oetzi and analogues) + a secondary "Armenian" share of the Bronze Age which almost certainly contains a robust CHG component, which arrived in southern Italy especially with the upheavals in the Mediterranean at the final Bronze Age (see Cline) and with the subsequent Greek colonization of the classical age


@ Duarte: here too the main component is almost always attributable to the usual Neolithic substrate, but as it is right to expect for those who are from the Iberian stock, this and / or the secondary quota are enriched with more or less consistent percentages of WHG


@ Gabriele: you have more or less my own "mixture", so the neolithic base + the secondary Steppe component (perhaps in your case a little more of CHG, given that Armenian sample appears)

Here I tried to run some of the samples adopted by the PunDNAL oracle on G25 using some ancestral reference components

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/101556225_304431703904434_3631670259250888704_n.pn g?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=b96e70&_nc_ohc=vXUVJvM546gAX8BCqI3&_nc_ht=scontent-mxp1-1.xx&oh=9cca6ad68d0c9c3313f4427db2c9feeb&oe=5EFB3488




@ Salento/Angela/Duarte: Gedrosia K3 is a calculator that could make sense only for some alien or for those who are a little allergic to human geography. In 3.000 years they will still ask about its actual purpose, but in practice it serves just to distinguish (badly) Africans, from Europeans, from Asians ... (according to him I would be Provencal ...) :D

I'm your neighbor. :)
Using 1 population approximation:
1 French_South @ 0.000000
2 Bergamo @ 0.501055
3 English @ 0.749153
4 French @ 1.084623
5 Albanian @ 1.218233
6 LBK_EN @ 1.276386
7 Greek @ 1.287931
8 Sardinian @ 1.291654
9 Croatian @ 1.932827
10 Spanish @ 2.004524
11 Czech @ 2.034308
12 Stuttgart @ 2.045782
13 Norwegian @ 2.371137
14 Bulgarian @ 2.793209
15 Hungarian @ 3.257035
16 Lithuanian @ 3.402356
17 Sicilian @ 3.799302
18 Georgian @ 3.836918
19 Cypriot @ 3.845514
20 Ukrainian @ 4.203940


One thing of note, I think. This PUNT K12 seems to give much higher levels of steppe for Southern Europeans than do the academic studies. I think steppe here may include what in other analyses might be Iran Neo.

Carlos
02-06-20, 23:48
K3

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Cypriot @ 0.000000
2 Sicilian @ 0.000000

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Albanian +25% Bergamo +25% Saudi @ 0.000000

K12

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek @ 14.144091
2 Sicilian @ 18.563683

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Greek +25% Russian +25% Stuttgart @ 4.575474

K6

1 Spanish @ 3.253918
2 French @ 3.536413
3 Croatian @ 4.155406
4 Hungarian @ 4.755836
5 English @ 6.161438
6 Romanian @ 6.428096
7 Czech @ 6.509709
8 Scottish @ 7.430361
9 Ukrainian @ 8.017553
10 Bulgarian @ 8.058025
11 Basque @ 8.199252
12 Norwegian @ 8.529338
13 Icelandic @ 9.744299
14 Europe_LNBA @ 10.917182

1 Albanian + Cypriot + Hungarian_KO1 + Palestinian @ 0.825008
2 Albanian + Cypriot + Palestinian + WHG @ 0.825008

Salento
03-06-20, 03:27
K3

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Cypriot @ 0.000000
2 Sicilian @ 0.000000

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Albanian +25% Bergamo +25% Saudi @ 0.000000

K12

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek @ 14.144091
2 Sicilian @ 18.563683

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Greek +25% Russian +25% Stuttgart @ 4.575474

K6

1 Spanish @ 3.253918
2 French @ 3.536413
3 Croatian @ 4.155406
4 Hungarian @ 4.755836
5 English @ 6.161438
6 Romanian @ 6.428096
7 Czech @ 6.509709
8 Scottish @ 7.430361
9 Ukrainian @ 8.017553
10 Bulgarian @ 8.058025
11 Basque @ 8.199252
12 Norwegian @ 8.529338
13 Icelandic @ 9.744299
14 Europe_LNBA @ 10.917182

1 Albanian + Cypriot + Hungarian_KO1 + Palestinian @ 0.825008
2 Albanian + Cypriot + Palestinian + WHG @ 0.825008



Gedrosia K3 has some East/West Europe samples switched or reversed.

... the results we posted show that.

The Legacy of Atlantis :)


https://youtu.be/uv-yZkRd0fE

Carlos
03-06-20, 16:07
Gedrosia K3 has some East/West Europe samples switched or reversed.

... the results we posted show that.

The Legacy of Atlantis :)



It is still Western Europe but perhaps it is like a meridian where a certain fusion between Western Europe and Eastern Europe can already be felt.

When they show me a document from the Roman Empire of the Middle Ages e.t.c. in which Northern Europe and Southern Europe are discussed, then I will mention them, in the meantime it will continue to be Western Europe and Eastern Europe in the same way that my ancestors did.

It would be interesting to see the K3 of someone from Eastern Europe but who was close to the border with Western Europe.

Duarte
03-06-20, 16:54
Bedouins are a beautiful people and proud of their origins. It is a pity that, in my case, the result of Bedouin ancestry pointed by GEDmatch Gedrosia K3 has to be seen with a grain of salt.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedouin

Stuvanè
03-06-20, 20:30
I'm your neighbor. :)
Using 1 population approximation:
1 French_South @ 0.000000
2 Bergamo @ 0.501055
3 English @ 0.749153
4 French @ 1.084623
5 Albanian @ 1.218233
6 LBK_EN @ 1.276386
7 Greek @ 1.287931
8 Sardinian @ 1.291654
9 Croatian @ 1.932827
10 Spanish @ 2.004524
11 Czech @ 2.034308
12 Stuttgart @ 2.045782
13 Norwegian @ 2.371137
14 Bulgarian @ 2.793209
15 Hungarian @ 3.257035
16 Lithuanian @ 3.402356
17 Sicilian @ 3.799302
18 Georgian @ 3.836918
19 Cypriot @ 3.845514
20 Ukrainian @ 4.203940


One thing of note, I think. This PUNT K12 seems to give much higher levels of steppe for Southern Europeans than do the academic studies. I think steppe here may include what in other analyses might be Iran Neo.

I agree, neighbour ;)

italouruguayan
04-06-20, 00:40
As expected, mine is even stranger ...:)



Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 W_Eurasian 81.64
2 E_Eurasian 13.87
3 SSA 4.48


Finished reading population data. 129 populations found.
3 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Makrani @ 3.845373
2 Brahui @ 5.616451
3 Balochi @ 6.043459
4 Turkish @ 6.472414
5 Iranian @ 6.713186
6 Balkar @ 7.069849
7 Tajik_Pomiri @ 7.360632
8 Russian @ 8.797531
9 Finnish @ 9.190976
10 Mordovian @ 9.387078
11 Kurd_C @ 10.008834
12 Adygei @ 10.765131
13 Kalash @ 11.384012
14 Pashtun_Afghan @ 12.396035
15 Chechen @ 12.421478
16 Syrian @ 12.939278
17 Kurd_N @ 13.023369
18 Jordanian @ 13.613901
19 Pathan @ 13.629040
20 Lebanese @ 14.013447

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Lebanese +50% Pathan @ 0.000000
2 50% Lebanese +50% Tajik @ 0.430700
3 50% Iraqi_Jew +50% Kurd_SE @ 0.618767
4 50% Pashtun_Afghan +50% Syrian @ 0.668052
5 50% Kalash +50% Syrian @ 0.751131
6 50% Saudi +50% Tajik @ 0.758178
7 50% Lebanese +50% Pashtun_Afghan @ 0.888850
8 50% Pathan +50% Syrian @ 0.954499
9 50% Ashkenazi_Jew +50% Kurd_SE @ 1.092636
10 50% Tajik +50% Yemenite_Jew @ 1.092764
11 50% Jordanian +50% Kalash @ 1.278205
12 50% Pathan +50% Saudi @ 1.286666
13 50% Assyrian +50% Kurd_SE @ 1.324127
14 50% Makrani +50% Turkish @ 1.356296
15 50% Cypriot +50% Kurd_SE @ 1.395195
16 50% Kurd_SE +50% Sicilian @ 1.412685
17 50% Syrian +50% Tajik @ 1.427017
18 50% Iranian_Jew +50% Kurd_SE @ 1.431610
19 50% Palestinian +50% Tajik @ 1.500215
20 50% Iranian +50% Makrani @ 1.503110


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Abkhasian +25% BedouinA +25% UP_Kol @ 0.000000

Salento
04-06-20, 22:36
DISTANCES:

I see people posting 5, 10 or below GD,

... at MTA, R1548 (165 AD) @ 9.741 is my Top and only sample below 10. (LivingDNA r-data in this case, I get also SZ40 below 10 in some other too, more or less)

just sayin’

1. Hellenic Roman Monterotondo (165 AD) ..... 9.741 - R1548

2. Hellenic Roman (590 AD) ..... 10.1 - SZ40


—————

1. Hellenic Roman Monterotondo (165 AD) ..... 10.07 - R1548

2. Tuscan Medieval Cancelleria Basilica (1350 AD) ..... 10.91 - R1290

3. Hellenic Roman (590 AD) ..... 11.03 - SZ40

4. Hellenic Roman Marcellino (400 AD) ..... 11.29 - R136

5. Imperial Rome Empire Via Paisiello (100 AD) ..... 11.58 - R114

6. Central Roman (590 AD) ..... 11.7 - SZ36

Carlos
04-06-20, 23:00
DISTANCES:

I see people posting 10 or below GD,

... at MTA, R1548 (165 AD) @ 9.741 is my Top and only sample below 10. (LivingDNA r-data in this case, I get also SZ40 below 10 in some other too, more or less)

just sayin’

1. Hellenic Roman Monterotondo (165 AD) ..... 9.741 - R1548

2. Hellenic Roman (590 AD) ..... 10.1 - SZ40


—————

1. Hellenic Roman Monterotondo (165 AD) ..... 10.07 - R1548

2. Tuscan Medieval Cancelleria Basilica (1350 AD) ..... 10.91 - R1290

3. Hellenic Roman (590 AD) ..... 11.03 - SZ40

4. Hellenic Roman Marcellino (400 AD) ..... 11.29 - R136

5. Imperial Rome Empire Via Paisiello (100 AD) ..... 11.58 - R114

6. Central Roman (590 AD) ..... 11.7 - SZ36



They haven't found your ideal corpse yet

Salento
04-06-20, 23:35
They haven't found your ideal corpse yet

Maybe it’s because they’re using a EU K15 type of calculator, and I get big distances with that one (many other Italians too).

Salento
04-06-20, 23:49
my Rs Sample results on Various Calculators (coordinates by Jovialis) :)

https://i.imgur.com/iX1IVgh.gif

Jovialis
05-06-20, 00:06
my Rs Sample results on Various Calculators (coordinates by Jovialis) :)

https://i.imgur.com/iX1IVgh.gif

The dodecad calculators seem more consistent with the others and accurate, than Eurogenes K15, or MTA, which is a derivative of Eurogenes K15. According to Davidiski himself, MDLP also apparently adjusts for the "calculator effect". Which is a non-issue (https://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/08/on-so-called-calculator-effect.html) regardless.

Salento
05-06-20, 00:52
The dodecad calculators seem more consistent with the others and accurate, than Eurogenes K15, or MTA, which is a derivative of Eurogenes K15. According to Davidiski himself, MDLP also apparently adjusts for the "calculator effect". Which is a non-issue (https://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/08/on-so-called-calculator-effect.html) regardless.

If you look at the Calculator results above, R1548 (MTA Top Match) shows-up only in Eurogenes K15, in a different position, but with a distance of 9.70 vs MTA 9.74 :)

Carlos
05-06-20, 00:57
Maybe it’s because they’re using a EU K15 type of calculator, and I get big distances with that one (many other Italians too).

I'm more or less the same. Only short distances are seen in Germanic users. They blame it on the cold that their corpses are better preserved. I do not know but perhaps the tests and the gold standard that they used to say it somehow revolved around the Germanic ones and when they obtained short distances they gave it as good for everyone; Even if we did get longer distances, to say the least, I really don't know what's going on.

Jovialis
05-06-20, 01:03
The main issue with these older calculators is that they were made with modern populations as broad regional components. We now know the intricacies of certain areas, rendering certain labels, like "Eastern Mediterranean" as absoultely useless. The only way we can accurately identify our ancestral origins, are to utilize samples of source populations, that no longer exist in unmixed form.

Duarte
05-06-20, 01:07
In fact, the distances obtained in EU K15 are higher than others calculators as I can see in Vahaduo EU K15 modern, whose distances are quite similar to MTA's modern populations:

https://i.imgur.com/d6N73hs.png

https://i.imgur.com/vIWmyyr.png

https://i.imgur.com/qVcGBJt.png

There are no samples of medieval Iberians in the vahaduo EU K15 ancient data. The inclusion of "antonio et all" samples makes me capture only Roman samples from the Iron Age together with samples of BA and IA of other regions, non italics. I only capture a sample of the medieval era when I introduce the coordinates of the European man lost at Zanzibar in 800 AD, which were produced by @tomanable in Gedmatch, which seems quite reasonable to me:

https://i.imgur.com/owKV8wq.png

https://i.imgur.com/A69dqdG.png

https://i.imgur.com/i9JswT5.png

In the Vahaduo EU K15 ancient , these are the samples that I match, below the distance 10:

https://i.imgur.com/evCh0ny.png

Salento
05-06-20, 01:29
@Duarte last night you were Zorro, now you are John Clayton II, Viscount of Greystoke, aka Tarzan :grin:

Duarte
05-06-20, 01:32
@Duarte last night you were Zorro, now you are John Clayton II, Viscount of Greystoke, aka Tarzan :grin:

:good_job::laughing::laughing:
Cheers dear friend @Salento ;)

Jovialis
05-06-20, 01:42
I'm more or less the same. Only short distances are seen in Germanic users. They blame it on the cold that their corpses are better preserved. I do not know but perhaps the tests and the gold standard that they used to say it somehow revolved around the Germanic ones and when they obtained short distances they gave it as good for everyone; Even if we did get longer distances, to say the least, I really don't know what's going on.

Perhaps this is indeed a part of it.

Jovialis
05-06-20, 01:44
Fwiw, I've seen Davidiski refer to MTA, as a "garbage" calculator on Anthrogenica. He's probably just upset that someone took his calculator, tweaked it a bit, and made a ton of money on it. Hey, that's capitalism baby. Pepsi did it to Coca-Cola.

Salento
05-06-20, 01:49
In fact, the distances obtained in EU K15 are higher than others calculators as I can see in Vahaduo EU K15 modern, whose distances are quite similar to MTA's modern populations:

https://i.imgur.com/d6N73hs.png

https://i.imgur.com/vIWmyyr.png

https://i.imgur.com/qVcGBJt.png

There are no samples of medieval Iberians in the vahaduo EU K15 ancient data. The inclusion of "antonio et all" samples makes me capture only Roman samples from the Iron Age together with samples of BA and IA of other regions, non italics. I only capture a sample of the medieval era when I introduce the coordinates of the European man lost at Zanzibar in 800 AD, which were produced by @tomanable in Gedmatch, which seems quite reasonable to me:

https://i.imgur.com/owKV8wq.png

https://i.imgur.com/A69dqdG.png

https://i.imgur.com/i9JswT5.png

In the Vahaduo EU K15 ancient , these are the samples that I match, below the distance 10:

https://i.imgur.com/evCh0ny.png

I think that eventually MTA will change its matching samples calculator, maybe :)

Jovialis
05-06-20, 01:54
I think that eventually MTA will change its matching samples calculator, maybe :)

Here is the PCA with the first match of the various samples from Antonio et. al 2019, circled in red:

https://i.imgur.com/QejVBiQ.png

MTA gives me R1548, as my first as well. I think the main issue with having R1548 as a first match, even at 9+ distance, is that it is too way out there to make sense; there are should be closer samples. It falls outside of the range of Southern Italy. I believe R1548 clusters with Cretan Greeks, if I recall. All of the other calculators, even Eurogenes K15 (mistakenly put as K16 here) put me in the range of Southern Italians. For some reason MTA isn't assigning what should be closer matches before R1548.

Salento
05-06-20, 02:37
Here is the PCA with the first match of the various samples from Antonio et. al 2019, circled in red:

https://i.imgur.com/QejVBiQ.png

MTA gives me R1548, as my first as well. I think the main issue with having R1548 as a first match, even at 9+ distance, is that it is too way out there to make sense; there are should be closer samples. It falls outside of the range of Southern Italy. I believe R1548 clusters with Cretan Greeks, if I recall. All of the other calculators, even Eurogenes K15 (mistakenly put as K16 here) put it in the range of Southern Italians. For some reason MTA isn't assigning what should be closer matches before R1548.


I assume that the reason we both get R1548 as Top Match, is because MTA is associating the sample with the Pugliesi, even though we’re not that close to R1548, I guess ...

Jovialis
05-06-20, 03:46
Based on Dodecad K12b Ancient, they are closest to Greek_Crete. I recall seeing it is the same for Eurogenes K15, as well. However, it puts Puglesi as in the 9+ distance too.



Distance to:
R1548_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo


3.02711083
Greek_Crete


6.65262809
Italy_Calabria


8.67914166
Ashkenazy_Jews


8.73617571
Italy_Campania


8.84331075
Italy_Sicily


8.91266515
Sephardic_Jews


9.47789006
Ashkenazi


9.94129609
Italy_Apulia


10.89483364
Greek_Cappadocia


11.04287814
Italy_Abruzzo


11.50332995
Crimean_Tatar_Coast


12.46487064
Turk_West_BlackSea


12.84234792
Turk_Central_West


13.04451226
Nusayri_Turkey


13.36422089
Greek


13.36713133
Morocco_Jews


13.72470765
Cypriots


13.89522940
Turk_Anatolia


13.95168807
Turk_Central_East


14.53214368
Turk_Southwest


15.01181535
Turk_Northwest


15.53595507
Turk_South


15.67329257
Turk_Central_Black_Sea


15.88400768
Turk_Southeast


16.16440225
Crimean_Tatar_Mountain

Jovialis
05-06-20, 03:55
Here is the PCA with the first match of the various samples from Antonio et. al 2019, circled in red:

https://i.imgur.com/QejVBiQ.png

MTA gives me R1548, as my first as well. I think the main issue with having R1548 as a first match, even at 9+ distance, is that it is too way out there to make sense; there are should be closer samples. It falls outside of the range of Southern Italy. I believe R1548 clusters with Cretan Greeks, if I recall. All of the other calculators, even Eurogenes K15 (mistakenly put as K16 here) put me in the range of Southern Italians. For some reason MTA isn't assigning what should be closer matches before R1548.


https://i.imgur.com/do2EPUk.png

Here is the MTA PCA vs the PCA from Antonio et al. 2019, they are very different in terms of the plots. I think something is off with the MTA PCA, tbh. For example, R65 is not supposed to be south of R1548. Other samples are out of wack, as well.

It is very hard to get these calculators to be accurate. I recently was endeavoring to make one with someone I was coordinating with, and it is not a simple task, unfortunately. Especially when working with Ancient DNA. Nevertheless, Dienekes definitely knew what he was doing, despite, the calculator being 8 years old.

Palermo Trapani
05-06-20, 04:13
Salento/Jovialis: I get R1548 as my closest Roman distance on MTA as well. MTA PCA Plot. So Need to look at this again vs. the other calculators Does this look out of wack to you all?

121501215112152

Jovialis
05-06-20, 04:19
^It looks normal for what MTA gives Southern Italians, nonetheless, it is inaccurate compared to the study, and what other calculators show.

Here is mine:


1. Hellenic Roman Monterotondo (165 AD) ..... 6.889 - R1548 -
Top
99 % match vs all users


2. Hellenic Roman (590 AD) ..... 8.619 - SZ40 - ?
Top
99 % match vs all users


3. Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1100 AD) ..... 8.685 - R65 -
Top
99 % match vs all users


4. Hellenic Roman Marcellino (400 AD) ..... 8.825 - R136 -
Top
99 % match vs all users


5. Hellenic Roman Casale del Dolce (145 AD) ..... 9.223 - R123 -
Top
99 % match vs all users


6. Hellenic Roman / Cretan (580 AD) ..... 10.26 - CL38 -
Top
99 % match vs all users


7. Roman Imperial Palestrina (100 AD) ..... 10.29 - R436 -
Top
99 % match vs all users


8. Hellenic Roman Mausoleo Augusto (500 AD) ..... 10.55 - R34 -
Top
99 % match vs all users


9. Imperial Rome Empire Via Paisiello (100 AD) ..... 10.84 - R114 -
Top
98 % match vs all users


10. Hellenic Roman Marcellino (400 AD) ..... 10.84 - R133 -
Top
99 % match vs all users

Palermo Trapani
05-06-20, 04:31
Jovialis: Ok, thanks, looks like we are in the same basic area code. But I don't get R1548 as 1 in any of the other calculators that you and other Eupedia Team members put together the ancient Roman sample coordinates. So as Salento noted, hopefully they can clean up their model by seeing why it is not providing similar results as the other models provide as they have a good overall product in my view.

Palermo Trapani
05-06-20, 04:55
Jovialis: Just for quick reference I posted a few of the top distances for Dodecad 12, 7B, World 9, MDLP16 and Eurogenes K13 and K15 and they all give different distances and #1 closest than MTA. As you noted, MTA used a modified version of Eurogenes K15 and it is not giving me R1548. In the Eurogenes K15, R1548 is a distance of 12.14 (#43)

Distance to: PalermoTrapani (Dodecad 12B)
2.59038607 R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
2.76190152 R52_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

Distance to: PalermoTrapani (Dodecad 7B)
0.83982141 R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata
1.42656931 R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis

Distance to: PalermoTrapani (Dodecad World 9)
1.10476242 R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio
1.31628264 R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
1.32676298 R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
1.53642442 R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata


Distance to: PalermoTrapani (MDLP 16)
2.96079381 R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
3.04921301 R117_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
3.11865356 R47_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis

Distance to: PalermoTrapani (Eurogenes K13)
2.83136010 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
3.06674094 R52_Lazio_Rome_Late_Medieval_Italy

Distance to: PalermoTrapani (Eurogenes K15)
5.54341050 R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
6.09360320 R835_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marche
6.24213105 R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata

Salento
05-06-20, 04:59
Ancient PCA: default and Top 20:
(my default Ancient PCA is hard to read, many samples are on top of each other)

Default:
https://i.imgur.com/ByDr6rb.jpg

Top 20:
https://i.imgur.com/qxfX3C6.jpg

Palermo Trapani
05-06-20, 05:02
Salento in regards to your post #2665, mine in #2661 has the same issue, hard to read due to samples plotting together.

Salento
05-06-20, 06:00
We could have easily blended in, if we lived in their time :)

Palermo Trapani
05-06-20, 15:27
We could have easily blended in, if we lived in their time :)

Good one, and yes I agree!

bigsnake49
05-06-20, 16:27
So within couple of days not only did we invalidate Gedrosia calculators as trash but now MTA's calculators and PCA plots are highly suspect. Good job comrades!

Angela
05-06-20, 17:39
^^Well, I'd say it's clear that the Gedrosia K3 doesn't work at all, and the others are a bit all over the place.

MTA seems to be extremely close in structure to Eurogenes K15 and in both of them the distances for northern Europeans are good, but not for southern Europeans. Now, someone could say that maybe that's just because northerners are more homogenized and have been subject to fewer population movements.

However, if that is the case, why does the K13 produce closer distances for Southern Europeans. I thought it was acknowledged even by Eurogenes fans that it's a "better" calculator.

Then there's the issue raised by Jovialis that the PCAs based on the Dodecad calculators are closer to the academic models. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but at least with academics there are enough honest ones around checking the complete data sets and algorithms provided that I have more confidence in them.

So, until further notice I'll stick with the dodecad based ones.

Btw, I remember getting the closest distances with K7. Does anyone have a link to the post where the coordinates are posted? I seem to have misplaced them. I don't think they're available for the Thracians etc.

Salento
05-06-20, 20:04
^^Well, I'd say it's clear that the Gedrosia K3 doesn't work at all, and the others are a bit all over the place.

MTA seems to be extremely close in structure to Eurogenes K15 and in both of them the distances for northern Europeans are good, but not for southern Europeans. Now, someone could say that maybe that's just because northerners are more homogenized and have been subject to fewer population movements.

However, if that is the case, why does the K13 produce closer distances for Southern Europeans. I thought it was acknowledged even by Eurogenes fans that it's a "better" calculator.

Then there's the issue raised by Jovialis that the PCAs based on the Dodecad calculators are closer to the academic models. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but at least with academics there are enough honest ones around checking the complete data sets and algorithms provided that I have more confidence in them.

So, until further notice I'll stick with the dodecad based ones.

Btw, I remember getting the closest distances with K7. Does anyone have a link to the post where the coordinates are posted? I seem to have misplaced them. I don't think they're available for the Thracians etc.

R dodecad K7 coordinates link (by Jovialis)

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39706-Ancient-Rome-Test-(Various-Calculators)?p=599924&viewfull=1#post599924


the others:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39706-Ancient-Rome-Test-(Various-Calculators)?p=600178&viewfull=1#post600178

(https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39706-Ancient-Rome-Test-(Various-Calculators)?p=599924&viewfull=1#post599924)

Angela
05-06-20, 21:11
R dodecad K7 coordinates link (by Jovialis)

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39706-Ancient-Rome-Test-(Various-Calculators)?p=599924&viewfull=1#post599924


the others:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39706-Ancient-Rome-Test-(Various-Calculators)?p=600178&viewfull=1#post600178

(https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39706-Ancient-Rome-Test-(Various-Calculators)?p=599924&viewfull=1#post599924)

Thanks, Salento, I appreciate it. :)

Salento
05-06-20, 22:03
Thanks, Salento, I appreciate it. :)

you’re welcome :)

my R Dodecad K7:

https://i.imgur.com/Z4Zi26z.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ZrCLbrd.jpg

bigsnake49
05-06-20, 22:30
Salento it's obvious why you have some great matches with all these ancient peoples. You live in the past and you are a time traveler! No other explanation makes sense:grin:.

bigsnake49
05-06-20, 22:32
Just as a BTW, K13 and K15 are much better for me than Dodecad 12b.

Salento
05-06-20, 23:10
@bigsnake49
I posted the Rs Dodecad K7, not K12 :)
(last post)

... thanks, I get those matches thanks to my Parents, ... I’m sure you get your matches from yours too, lol

Duarte
05-06-20, 23:22
Gedrosia K3 makes me 50% Bedouin + 50% Greek at a distance of 0.0000.

Dodecad K7b makes me 63% English from Kent and 37% Algerian, at a distance of 1.78.



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

63.4%
Kent (1000Genomes)
+
36.6%
Algerian (Dodecad)
@
1.78



In the Dodecad K7b "4 populations approximation" mode, I capture this ones, for example:

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Belorussian_Behar + Hungarians_Behar + Moroccans_Behar + Murcia_1000Genomes @ 1.859773

None of these populations have a direct relationship to my ancestry. Indirectely, maybe, only the old Moroccans and directly the Spanish from Murcia.

I am an Iberian basically Portuguese, but about 25% of my ancestry is from Spain (Galicia + Andalusia). In all calculators that include subpopulations of the Iberian Peninsula, my better results are in the mixed mode than in single mode.

Surely the Gedrosia K3 and Dodecad K7b calculators don't work well on my autosomal raw data.

Angela
06-06-20, 00:35
K7b: I'm closer to some of the Iron Age samples, with distances of 7 and 8, but still not really close on this, and the Protovillanovan is around a 6. Like Bigsnake, I'm sort of betwixt and between.



Distance to:
angela


5.71735953
R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


5.72271789
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


6.11417206
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


6.25399073
R55_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


6.34234184
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


6.88899848
R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio


7.14289857
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


7.36155554
R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


7.63729664
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


7.95746191
R105_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


8.15919114
R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


8.27842980
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima


9.02724210
R110_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


10.27778673
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


10.93756829
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia



Of course, it doesn't contain the Szolad, Collegno, or Balkan Bronze Age samples which usually come up for me.

K12b


Distance to:
angela


6.31505344
Szolad43


6.50777996
I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge


6.58852032
I8475_NE_Iberia_RomP_atypical


6.70063430
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


7.00276374
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


7.63776145
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


7.90661116
scy197_Scythian


8.03440104
Szolad28


8.06378943
I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN


8.27787412
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


8.58760735
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


8.68103680
Collegno36


8.68244205
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


8.83378175
R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


8.84223954
Szolad31


9.29782233
scy192_Scythian


9.30879691
R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


9.34955079
Collegno23


9.53899890
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


9.55127740
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.59662441
I4332_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.74475756
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.81422437
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


9.83482079
France_IA_ERS88


9.84937054
I4054_SE_Iberia_c.3-4CE


10.03918323
R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio


10.16986234
R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


10.17686101
Szolad36


10.59019358
R110_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


10.59060433
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima


10.59666457
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


10.66505977
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.70114013
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.74346778
scy300_Scythian


10.84604536
I12516_SE_Iberia_c.10-16CE


What I find interesting about the above is that in addition to all the Balkan Bronze Age, and what I find to be a surprisingly close relationship to Vucedol, is that I'm at an 8 to one of the Parma Beaker samples, which I'm assuming is the one that isn't all that steppe admixed, and it was found literally in Parma, where my father's family has lived for as long as anyone has records.


K13: it does have the Szolad, Collegno and Balkan Bronze Age samples. My Etruscan samples don't start showing up until around 9.
Before that come Croatia and Hungary Bronze Age and Croatia Iron Age.


2.93497871
SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp


5.41744405
CL36_longobard_north_italy


5.73090743
I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp


6.05641808
R1287_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy


6.08392143
scy300_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2253_ybp


6.59609733
SZ37_Hungary_Langobard_1447_ybp


6.59807548
SZ36_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp


6.86632362
R33_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy


6.93144285
R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy


7.32957707
R55_Lazio_Rome_Late_Medieval_Italy


7.39407871
I7424_morisco_


7.40771220
I7041_Hungary_BA_brother.I7043_4300_ybp


7.55432988
scy305_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2254_ybp


7.63038007
CL23_longobard_north_italy


7.83203039
R36_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity


7.92385007
SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_60th_century


8.08064973
I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp


8.12940342
R1285_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy


8.34281128
R111_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial


8.41153969
col018_col018_M_R1b0Z2123_T2b_


8.50960046
I7425_morisco_


8.62188494
I3499_Croatia_Starcevo_EN_o_4725_ybp


8.71884167
STR535_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp


8.89206388
I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp


8.97791178
SZ32_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp


8.98867621
I12515_iberia_


9.04961878
R474b_Civitavecchia_Etruscan._Iron_Age


9.06077259
col001_col001_


9.11117995
R118_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity


9.28771231
Crusader_SI41_Kingdom_of_Jerusalem_


9.33366488
RISE374_Hungary_Maros.SG_3693_ybp


9.37860864
CL121_longobard_north_italy


9.49464059
R105_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity


9.64738306
ScythianMoldova_SCY300_Moldova_397-209_BC





K15-not good at all...after 5 results it jumps to the 11 distance. It does get me at 5-6 to the Villanovan, but so do they all.


5.85241830
IA_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro_R1


10.18406108
IA_Civitavecchia_R474


10.28697234
BronzAgeBalkan


10.71314146
EMBA_Croatia_I4331


10.73127672
Vucedol_I3499



MKLP K16 isn't even in the running. He must have next to no reference samples.


Distance to:
angela


9.01777134
HungaryGamba_MBA.SG


15.93470113
Maros.SG


16.18324133
Bell_Beaker


17.10485311
Anatolian-Neolithic


17.68219161
Vatya.SG


18.16034416
GermanStuttgart_LBK


18.31556988
Anatolia_Neolithic


18.89555768
Tyrolean_Iceman


19.58309220
Anatolia_Neolithic_1d_rel_I0736


19.91016072
British-Celtic


20.42060724
Bell_Beaker_Germany.SG


20.73815324
Balkan-LBA


21.55132711
Corded_Ware_Proto_Unetice_Poland.SG


21.81025447
Bell_Beaker_Czech.SG


21.83292239
Anatolia_ChL


21.95647513
Unetice


22.00179765
British-AngloSaxon


22.12755748
Remedello_BA.SG


22.45759560
British-IA


23.09048938
BattleAxe_Sweden.SG


23.30482568
Nordic_Iron_Age


23.50348698
HungaryGamba_CA


23.94682442
Unetice_EBA.SG


24.29548312
Irish-BA


24.41342868
Nordic_MN_B.SG

Palermo Trapani
06-06-20, 00:43
Angela: There is an MDLP K16 ancient Roman Sample coordinate source data set that Jovialis and/or others from Eupedia team here put together. It is in the ancient Roman Calculator forum. Just a friendly suggestion, have you run your MDLP 16 coordinates vs. the Ancient Roman sample coordinates that Jovalis/Eupedia team put together. You may get some good matches vs. the Ancient Romans in that source data set. Here are my MDLP 16 (distances < 10) with MDLP source data in the vahaduo spreadsheet plus coordinates for the ancient Romans from Jovialist/Eupedia team. The MDLP 16 coordinates are in Jovialis post #128 in Ancient Rome Test various Calculators forum.




Distance to:
PalermoTrapani


2.96079381
R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


3.04921301
R117_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


3.11865356
R47_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis


4.59205836
R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.66517952
R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


4.68218966
R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.81971991
R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata


4.84487358
R32_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


4.89017382
R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.91000000
R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.96528952
R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.25860248
R121_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


5.41513619
R113_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


5.42099622
R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


5.56534815
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


5.63997340
R52_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.67840647
R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


5.70397230
R64_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.84291879
R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


6.38039967
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


6.44131198
R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


6.57352265
R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio


6.65520097
R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


6.92231175
R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese


7.01396464
R969_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


7.06653380
R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


7.24581258
R45_Imperial_Era_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis


7.44006720
R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina


7.60067102
R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


7.67058016
R51_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis


7.69282133
R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis


7.71791423
R835_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marche


7.82754112
R850_Iron_Age_Ardea


7.94544524
R970_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


8.06820302
R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


8.15206109
R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro


8.54740311
R118_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


8.85757868
R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio


8.86578818
R836_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marche


8.90509405
R125_Imperial_Era_Casale_del_Dolce


8.99794421
R115_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


9.16491680
R50_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis


9.37905112
R1549_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo


9.61169080
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


10.03136082
R133_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro


10.28197452
R30_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto






Target: PalermoTrapani
Distance: 0.9859% / 0.98594242 | ADC: 0.25x



44.4
R117_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia





25.2
R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis





11.8
R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna





10.4
Anatolia_Neolithic_1d_rel_I0736





6.2
R47_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis





2.0
R8_Neolithic_Grotta_Continenza

bigsnake49
06-06-20, 01:43
K7b: I'm closer to some of the Iron Age samples, with distances of 7 and 8, but still not really close on this, and the Protovillanovan is around a 6. Like Bigsnake, I'm sort of betwixt and between.



Distance to:
angela


5.71735953
R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


5.72271789
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


6.11417206
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


6.25399073
R55_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


6.34234184
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


6.88899848
R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio


7.14289857
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


7.36155554
R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


7.63729664
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


7.95746191
R105_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


8.15919114
R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


8.27842980
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima


9.02724210
R110_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


10.27778673
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


10.93756829
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


Of course, it doesn't contain the Szolad, Collegno, or Balkan Bronze Age samples which usually come up for me.

K12b


Distance to:
angela


6.31505344
Szolad43


6.50777996
I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge


6.58852032
I8475_NE_Iberia_RomP_atypical


6.70063430
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


7.00276374
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


7.63776145
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


7.90661116
scy197_Scythian


8.03440104
Szolad28


8.06378943
I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN


8.27787412
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


8.58760735
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


8.68103680
Collegno36


8.68244205
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


8.83378175
R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


8.84223954
Szolad31


9.29782233
scy192_Scythian


9.30879691
R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


9.34955079
Collegno23


9.53899890
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


9.55127740
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.59662441
I4332_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.74475756
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.81422437
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


9.83482079
France_IA_ERS88


9.84937054
I4054_SE_Iberia_c.3-4CE


10.03918323
R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio


10.16986234
R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


10.17686101
Szolad36


10.59019358
R110_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


10.59060433
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima


10.59666457
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


10.66505977
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.70114013
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.74346778
scy300_Scythian


10.84604536
I12516_SE_Iberia_c.10-16CE


What I find interesting about the above is that in addition to all the Balkan Bronze Age, and what I find to be a surprisingly close relationship to Vucedol, is that I'm at an 8 to one of the Parma Beaker samples, which I'm assuming is the one that isn't all that steppe admixed, and it was found literally in Parma, where my father's family has lived for as long as anyone has records.


K13: it does have the Szolad, Collegno and Balkan Bronze Age samples. My Etruscan samples don't start showing up until around 9.
Before that come Croatia and Hungary Bronze Age and Croatia Iron Age.


2.93497871
SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp


5.41744405
CL36_longobard_north_italy


5.73090743
I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp


6.05641808
R1287_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy


6.08392143
scy300_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2253_ybp


6.59609733
SZ37_Hungary_Langobard_1447_ybp


6.59807548
SZ36_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp


6.86632362
R33_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy


6.93144285
R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy


7.32957707
R55_Lazio_Rome_Late_Medieval_Italy


7.39407871
I7424_morisco_


7.40771220
I7041_Hungary_BA_brother.I7043_4300_ybp


7.55432988
scy305_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2254_ybp


7.63038007
CL23_longobard_north_italy


7.83203039
R36_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity


7.92385007
SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_60th_century


8.08064973
I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp


8.12940342
R1285_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy


8.34281128
R111_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial


8.41153969
col018_col018_M_R1b0Z2123_T2b_


8.50960046
I7425_morisco_


8.62188494
I3499_Croatia_Starcevo_EN_o_4725_ybp


8.71884167
STR535_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp


8.89206388
I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp


8.97791178
SZ32_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp


8.98867621
I12515_iberia_


9.04961878
R474b_Civitavecchia_Etruscan._Iron_Age


9.06077259
col001_col001_


9.11117995
R118_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity


9.28771231
Crusader_SI41_Kingdom_of_Jerusalem_


9.33366488
RISE374_Hungary_Maros.SG_3693_ybp


9.37860864
CL121_longobard_north_italy


9.49464059
R105_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity


9.64738306
ScythianMoldova_SCY300_Moldova_397-209_BC





K15-not good at all...after 5 results it jumps to the 11 distance. It does get me at 5-6 to the Villanovan, but so do they all.


5.85241830
IA_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro_R1


10.18406108
IA_Civitavecchia_R474


10.28697234
BronzAgeBalkan


10.71314146
EMBA_Croatia_I4331


10.73127672
Vucedol_I3499



MKLP K16 isn't even in the running. He must have next to no reference samples.


Distance to:
angela


9.01777134
HungaryGamba_MBA.SG


15.93470113
Maros.SG


16.18324133
Bell_Beaker


17.10485311
Anatolian-Neolithic


17.68219161
Vatya.SG


18.16034416
GermanStuttgart_LBK


18.31556988
Anatolia_Neolithic


18.89555768
Tyrolean_Iceman


19.58309220
Anatolia_Neolithic_1d_rel_I0736


19.91016072
British-Celtic


20.42060724
Bell_Beaker_Germany.SG


20.73815324
Balkan-LBA


21.55132711
Corded_Ware_Proto_Unetice_Poland.SG


21.81025447
Bell_Beaker_Czech.SG


21.83292239
Anatolia_ChL


21.95647513
Unetice


22.00179765
British-AngloSaxon


22.12755748
Remedello_BA.SG


22.45759560
British-IA


23.09048938
BattleAxe_Sweden.SG


23.30482568
Nordic_Iron_Age


23.50348698
HungaryGamba_CA


23.94682442
Unetice_EBA.SG


24.29548312
Irish-BA


24.41342868
Nordic_MN_B.SG




Angela you are a mixture, like me, that does not fit neatly to one population or the other. In some calculators I cluster closest to the Greek samples, sometimes the Bulgarian and sometimes Greek_Thessaly.

Angela
06-06-20, 02:19
Angela you are a mixture, like me, that does not fit neatly to one population or the other. In some calculators I cluster closest to the Greek samples, sometimes the Bulgarian and sometimes Greek_Thessaly.

I agree, but in addition I do find it really odd that in K13 I get these kinds of values.



8.62188494
I3499_Croatia_Starcevo_EN_o_4725_ybp



Now, if he really means Starcevo Early Neolithic it's much older than that, so I don't know if there's a mistake somewhere.

The Starčevo culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star%C4%8Devo_culture) is an archaeological culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeological_culture) of Southeastern Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Europe), in what is now Serbia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia), dating to the Neolithic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) period between c. 5500 and 4500 BCE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCE)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star%C4%8Devo%E2%80%93K%C3%B6r%C3%B6s%E2%80%93Cri% C8%99_culture#cite_note-3) (according to other source, between 6200 and 5200 BCE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCE)).

How could I be that close to a sample that old?

At the same time this sample is, I think, when analyzed, close to a modern far northern Italian who somehow wound up with the German forces:



8.71884167
STR535_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp


It's just bizarre to me, as is the fact that I get so many ancient Balkan matches, and as is the fact I'm so close to people falsely labeled Lombards who were found in the graves in Szolad and Collegno, but who were actually a mixed group of Italianate people. I'm closer to them than to modern Italians.

Maybe it's just all down to the fact that there are no reference samples from my part of Italy, or maybe part of the answer is also that certainly my paternal ancestry is very drifted (this was documented by Cavalli-Sforza) but maybe my mother's from the foothills of the Appennini as well.

Angela
06-06-20, 03:32
Forgot the results for World 9. As with most of the calculators which don't have the Szolad, Collegno, and all the Balkan samples, I'm closest to the Protovillanovan.



5.02847890
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


5.31779089
R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


5.74825191
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


5.75670044
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


5.93833310
R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


6.35736581
R55_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


6.83714122
R105_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


7.53388346
R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio


7.61102490
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


7.72309523
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


8.52307456
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima


9.56302776
R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


10.29455196
R110_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


10.74582244
R109_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


11.09371444
R970_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


11.17668108
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


11.30177862
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


11.50442089
R118_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


11.78722614
R1549_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo


11.95373582
R1221_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


12.12062705
R969_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


12.49628745
R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


12.56839687
R61_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


12.60475307
R121_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


12.72669635
R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi



On another thread I looked up all the Late Antiquity and Medieval samples, and they're the ones which come closest to modern Tuscan and Northern Italians, so it all makes sense.

bigsnake49
06-06-20, 05:00
Forgot the results for World 9. As with most of the calculators which don't have the Szolad, Collegno, and all the Balkan samples, I'm closest to the Protovillanovan.



5.02847890
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


5.31779089
R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


5.74825191
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


5.75670044
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


5.93833310
R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


6.35736581
R55_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


6.83714122
R105_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


7.53388346
R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio


7.61102490
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


7.72309523
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


8.52307456
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima


9.56302776
R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


10.29455196
R110_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


10.74582244
R109_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


11.09371444
R970_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


11.17668108
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


11.30177862
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


11.50442089
R118_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


11.78722614
R1549_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo


11.95373582
R1221_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


12.12062705
R969_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


12.49628745
R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


12.56839687
R61_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


12.60475307
R121_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


12.72669635
R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi



On another thread I looked up all the Late Antiquity and Medieval samples, and they're the ones which come closest to modern Tuscan and Northern Italians, so it all makes sense.

You are pretty close to ancient Italian samples so World9 is OK. We all have our favorites. But why are you so far from medieval samples R60 and R61?

Jovialis
06-06-20, 05:27
^It looks normal for what MTA gives Southern Italians, nonetheless, it is inaccurate compared to the study, and what other calculators show.

Here is mine:


1. Hellenic Roman Monterotondo (165 AD) ..... 6.889 - R1548 -
Top
99 %
match vs all users


2. Hellenic Roman (590 AD) ..... 8.619 - SZ40 - ?
Top
99 %
match vs all users


3. Medieval Villa Magna Italy (1100 AD) ..... 8.685 - R65 -
Top
99 %
match vs all users


4. Hellenic Roman Marcellino (400 AD) ..... 8.825 - R136 -
Top
99 %
match vs all users


5. Hellenic Roman Casale del Dolce (145 AD) ..... 9.223 - R123 -
Top
99 %
match vs all users


6. Hellenic Roman / Cretan (580 AD) ..... 10.26 - CL38 -
Top
99 %
match vs all users


7. Roman Imperial Palestrina (100 AD) ..... 10.29 - R436 -
Top
99 %
match vs all users


8. Hellenic Roman Mausoleo Augusto (500 AD) ..... 10.55 - R34 -
Top
99 %
match vs all users


9. Imperial Rome Empire Via Paisiello (100 AD) ..... 10.84 - R114 -
Top
98 %
match vs all users


10. Hellenic Roman Marcellino (400 AD) ..... 10.84 - R133 -
Top
99 %
match vs all users


Below are my Roman results for the various calculators, compared to the MTA top ten matches, I get above:


https://i.imgur.com/KSuOlox.png

Here is the PCA for context:

https://i.imgur.com/QejVBiQ.png

Palermo Trapani
06-06-20, 06:01
Jovialis: Looks really good, your top 25 (default calculator distances) has Iron Age R437 in 4 of the 5. Can you give me an idea where R437 plots in the Antonio et al 2019 PCA plot you have in your post 2684. Imperial Romans show up in all 5 calculators. R1548 your MTA #1 shows up in MDLP and Eurogenes K15 but at 6.09 and 7.92, respectively.

Salento
06-06-20, 06:12
Below are my Roman results for the various calculators, compared to the MTA top ten matches, I get above:


https://i.imgur.com/KSuOlox.png

Here is the PCA for context:

https://i.imgur.com/QejVBiQ.png


...for personal reference, ... reposting mine:
Awesome :)

https://i.imgur.com/iX1IVgh.gif

Angela
06-06-20, 06:14
You are pretty close to ancient Italian samples so World9 is OK. We all have our favorites. But why are you so far from medieval samples R60 and R61?

Why do you think it's my "favorite"? I just forgot to post it with the others. I'm just as "close" to those particular samples on the K7b, and reasonably close on other calculators, sometimes at 7 or 8, sometimes at 9 or 10. I'm reasonably close to the Protovillanovan on all of them. Eurogenes' K15 puts me at 5 to that sample, and mta at 6.

It is what it is.

I'm too "northern", as a half-Emilian, half-Tuscan/eastern Ligurian to be as close to R60, who is closest to a Central Italian, say Lazio, around Rome.



Distance to:
R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


3.68548504
C_Italian


3.79720950
Greek


5.37371380
O_Italian


7.58677797
Ashkenazy_Jews


7.85220988
Sicilian


8.32194689
S_Italian_Sicilian


8.93122612
Tuscan


9.12853767
S_Italian


9.35162018
Ashkenazi


9.91164971
TSI30


15.36518142
Bulgarian


15.67286828
Romanians


16.52076572
Bulgarians


17.30318468
Sephardic_Jews


18.57294807
North_Italian


18.60251327
N_Italian


18.85409239
Morocco_Jews


22.89481164
Canarias


23.53301511
Murcia


24.04138931
Baleares


24.44272489
Brazilian


25.24438155
Andalucia


25.86532041
Extremadura


25.98690247
Turkish


26.38087186
Portuguese



R61 might have been a Spaniard...not everyone staying at a monastery in medieval Italy was necessarily a local...that's a mistake Antonio et al made...I get modern matches to Spaniards too at around 12 sometimes.


Distance to:
R61_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


3.78465322
Baleares


4.90332540
Extremadura


5.22960802
Spaniards


5.33634707
Andalucia


5.43898888
Galicia


6.00987521
Castilla_La_Mancha


6.04446855
Portuguese


6.19277805
N_Italian


6.27826409
Valencia


6.33360877
Cataluna


6.48512143
North_Italian


6.65436699
Spanish


6.84299642
Castilla_Y_Leon


7.52519767
Murcia


8.78342758
Aragon


8.81104988
Cantabria


10.42691709
Brazilian


10.43258357
Canarias


10.51820327
French


10.75682109
French


12.03683098
Bulgarians


13.18857839
Bulgarian


13.88537000
Hungarians


14.45491612
Romanians


14.96811945
TSI30



I'm closer to R55 because he's closest to a North Italian by quite a bit.


Distance to:
R55_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


2.43614449
N_Italian


3.99152853
North_Italian


5.70972854
Bulgarians


6.38165339
Bulgarian


8.09465873
TSI30


8.40484979
Romanians


8.89201327
Baleares


9.04474986
Tuscan


10.79340076
Andalucia


10.95415446
Murcia


11.05927213
Extremadura


11.98421879
Galicia


11.99541162
Portuguese


12.00256223
O_Italian


12.34869629
Spaniards


12.68929864
Canarias


12.69454607
Castilla_La_Mancha


13.25788445
Brazilian


13.44780651
Castilla_Y_Leon


13.60034926
Valencia


13.95254457
Cataluna


13.98633261
Spanish


15.09263065
C_Italian


16.10501475
Aragon


16.32701749
Cantabria



The Protovillanovan, to whom I often get a distance of 5 or 6 and at the most 9, is also closest to a Northern Italian...


4.37930360
N_Italian


5.30590237
North_Italian


5.38946194
Bulgarians


5.63063052
Bulgarian


6.26960924
TSI30


7.13918763
Tuscan


7.55513071
Romanians


9.91564420
O_Italian


10.62405761
Baleares


12.03636158
Murcia


12.34536350
Andalucia


12.70299177
Extremadura


13.00515282
C_Italian


13.25664362
Canarias


13.56814652
Portuguese


13.68254362
Galicia


13.69729900
Brazilian


14.24319487
Spaniards


14.40951075
Castilla_La_Mancha


15.12633465
Castilla_Y_Leon


15.54651086
Valencia


15.89263981
Spanish


16.01798989
Cataluna


17.96470428
Greek


18.01710299
Aragon



I'm always pretty close to 13313, sometimes called Balkan Bronze Age, but which K13 calls Croatia Early Iron Age. This is why:


Distance to:
I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp


5.43453770
Veneto


5.56891372
Piedmont


6.91223553
Friuli-VG


7.23040801
Liguria


7.24876541
Swiss-Italian


7.50322597
Trentino


7.63498527
Lombardy


7.66717679
Emilia


7.95719800
AostaValley


8.89383494
Tuscany


8.92562603
Swiss_Italian


9.82746661
Portuguese


9.86850039
Spanish_Extremadura


10.95161175
Spanish_Galicia


11.07736882
Swiss_French


11.19579385
Spanish_Cataluna


11.31314722
Spanish_Murcia


11.36757230
Spanish_Andalucia


11.74421985
Tuscan


11.75111910
Romagna


11.85622200
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon


12.05249767
Spanish_Valencia


12.38313369
Umbria


12.63928795
Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha


13.00125763
French



Eurogenes K13 gives me this as my closest sample:
SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp,31.64,10.34,24. 24,8.69,21.60,1.59,0.35,0.00,0.00,0.73,0.82,0.00,0 .00

This is why...


Distance to:
SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp


2.62575703
Liguria


3.03894719
Emilia


4.22659437
Tuscany


4.70964967
Lombardy


5.97690555
Veneto


6.10092616
Tuscan


6.29661814
Piedmont


6.76625450
Romagna


7.13887946
Umbria


7.59609110
FrenchCorsica


8.13766551
Lazio


8.31645357
Marche


8.40452259
Friuli-VG


9.23770534
Swiss-Italian


9.48964699
Trentino


9.74243296
Swiss_Italian


11.88159922
Greek_Western-Thrace


12.35136835
Spanish_Extremadura


12.53068633
Portuguese


12.56161614
Albanian_Kosovo


12.60631191
Greek_Central-Macedonia


12.81659861
Albanian_north_Albania


12.89158253
Spanish_Andalucia


13.06767003
Vlach_Central-Macedonia


13.16254530
Kosovo_Albanian


Whoever it was, that person was Italianate, and a very specific type of Italianate, right between a Genovese and an Emiliano, and most certainly not a Langobard. That person is also closer to me than any modern reference Italian sample used so far.

MTA sees that sample as very close to me as well, along with CL36. They're incorrect about something, however, with regard to CL36. The sample was not found in the Langobard sample, but close by and a little while further in time, so that sample is basically a medieval Piemontese.

According to K13, CL36 is closest to an Emilian. The closest samples to me are ones which contain ancestry closest to someone who is a mix of Emilian, Ligurian, and Tuscan, which perfectly describes me.



Distance to:
CL36_longobard_north_italy


4.94730230
Emilia


5.28770271
Liguria


5.49100173
Tuscany


6.41289326
Veneto


7.19644357
Piedmont


7.48601363
Romagna


7.63759124
Lombardy


7.85874672
Tuscan


7.89167916
Umbria


7.93955918
Friuli-VG


8.84095018
Lazio


8.94194610
Marche


9.86773530
Trentino


10.13169285
FrenchCorsica


10.38594242
Swiss-Italian


11.14634021
Greek_Central-Macedonia


11.24960444
Albanian_Kosovo


11.54786560
Swiss_Italian


11.56677036
Kosovo_Albanian


11.70871470
Greek_Western-Thrace


12.02145998
Greek_Eastern-Macedonia


12.21915709
Albanian_north_Albania


12.25450121
Vlach_Central-Macedonia


12.56476024
Albanian


12.70688003
Vlach_North-Macedonia



1. Central Roman (590 AD) ..... 3.614 - SZ43 -
Top
99 % match vs all users

2. Central Roman (630 AD) ..... 4.508 - CL36 - ?
Top
99 % match vs all users

Salento
06-06-20, 06:48
Jovialis: Looks really good, your top 25 (default calculator distances) has Iron Age R437 in 4 of the 5. Can you give me an idea where R437 plots in the Antonio et al 2019 PCA plot you have in your post 2684. Imperial Romans show up in all 5 calculators. R1548 your MTA #1 shows up in MDLP and Eurogenes K15 but at 6.09 and 7.92, respectively.

between Central and Southern Italy, I think.

... link to Jovialis’ post:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39501-Moots-Ancient-Rome-Paper?p=590175&viewfull=1#post590175

Palermo Trapani
06-06-20, 06:53
between Central and Southern italy, I think:

... link to Jovialis’ post:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39501-Moots-Ancient-Rome-Paper?p=590175&viewfull=1#post590175

Thanks Salento! Good to have people here who can find the information quickly.

Salento
06-06-20, 07:05
Thanks Salento! Good to have people here who can find the information quickly.

... Jovialis keeps doing all the hard work, I just happen to remember what he did, :)

Palermo Trapani
06-06-20, 07:16
... Jovialis keeps doing all the hard work, I just happen to remember what he did, :)

Yes he has done a great job with putting together all these coordinates for the various calculators.

Duarte
06-06-20, 14:43
K7b: I'm closer to some of the Iron Age samples, with distances of 7 and 8, but still not really close on this, and the Protovillanovan is around a 6. Like Bigsnake, I'm sort of betwixt and between.



Distance to:
angela


5.71735953
R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


5.72271789
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


6.11417206
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


6.25399073
R55_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


6.34234184
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


6.88899848
R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio


7.14289857
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


7.36155554
R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


7.63729664
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


7.95746191
R105_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


8.15919114
R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


8.27842980
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima


9.02724210
R110_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


10.27778673
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


10.93756829
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


Of course, it doesn't contain the Szolad, Collegno, or Balkan Bronze Age samples which usually come up for me.

K12b


Distance to:
angela


6.31505344
Szolad43


6.50777996
I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge


6.58852032
I8475_NE_Iberia_RomP_atypical


6.70063430
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


7.00276374
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


7.63776145
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


7.90661116
scy197_Scythian


8.03440104
Szolad28


8.06378943
I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN


8.27787412
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


8.58760735
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


8.68103680
Collegno36


8.68244205
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


8.83378175
R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


8.84223954
Szolad31


9.29782233
scy192_Scythian


9.30879691
R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


9.34955079
Collegno23


9.53899890
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


9.55127740
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.59662441
I4332_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.74475756
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.81422437
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


9.83482079
France_IA_ERS88


9.84937054
I4054_SE_Iberia_c.3-4CE


10.03918323
R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio


10.16986234
R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


10.17686101
Szolad36


10.59019358
R110_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


10.59060433
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima


10.59666457
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


10.66505977
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.70114013
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.74346778
scy300_Scythian


10.84604536
I12516_SE_Iberia_c.10-16CE


What I find interesting about the above is that in addition to all the Balkan Bronze Age, and what I find to be a surprisingly close relationship to Vucedol, is that I'm at an 8 to one of the Parma Beaker samples, which I'm assuming is the one that isn't all that steppe admixed, and it was found literally in Parma, where my father's family has lived for as long as anyone has records.


K13: it does have the Szolad, Collegno and Balkan Bronze Age samples. My Etruscan samples don't start showing up until around 9.
Before that come Croatia and Hungary Bronze Age and Croatia Iron Age.


2.93497871
SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp


5.41744405
CL36_longobard_north_italy


5.73090743
I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp


6.05641808
R1287_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy


6.08392143
scy300_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2253_ybp


6.59609733
SZ37_Hungary_Langobard_1447_ybp


6.59807548
SZ36_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp


6.86632362
R33_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy


6.93144285
R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy


7.32957707
R55_Lazio_Rome_Late_Medieval_Italy


7.39407871
I7424_morisco_


7.40771220
I7041_Hungary_BA_brother.I7043_4300_ybp


7.55432988
scy305_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2254_ybp


7.63038007
CL23_longobard_north_italy


7.83203039
R36_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity


7.92385007
SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_60th_century


8.08064973
I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp


8.12940342
R1285_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy


8.34281128
R111_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial


8.41153969
col018_col018_M_R1b0Z2123_T2b_


8.50960046
I7425_morisco_


8.62188494
I3499_Croatia_Starcevo_EN_o_4725_ybp


8.71884167
STR535_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp


8.89206388
I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp


8.97791178
SZ32_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp


8.98867621
I12515_iberia_


9.04961878
R474b_Civitavecchia_Etruscan._Iron_Age


9.06077259
col001_col001_


9.11117995
R118_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity


9.28771231
Crusader_SI41_Kingdom_of_Jerusalem_


9.33366488
RISE374_Hungary_Maros.SG_3693_ybp


9.37860864
CL121_longobard_north_italy


9.49464059
R105_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity


9.64738306
ScythianMoldova_SCY300_Moldova_397-209_BC





K15-not good at all...after 5 results it jumps to the 11 distance. It does get me at 5-6 to the Villanovan, but so do they all.


5.85241830
IA_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro_R1


10.18406108
IA_Civitavecchia_R474


10.28697234
BronzAgeBalkan


10.71314146
EMBA_Croatia_I4331


10.73127672
Vucedol_I3499



MKLP K16 isn't even in the running. He must have next to no reference samples.


Distance to:
angela


9.01777134
HungaryGamba_MBA.SG


15.93470113
Maros.SG


16.18324133
Bell_Beaker


17.10485311
Anatolian-Neolithic


17.68219161
Vatya.SG


18.16034416
GermanStuttgart_LBK


18.31556988
Anatolia_Neolithic


18.89555768
Tyrolean_Iceman


19.58309220
Anatolia_Neolithic_1d_rel_I0736


19.91016072
British-Celtic


20.42060724
Bell_Beaker_Germany.SG


20.73815324
Balkan-LBA


21.55132711
Corded_Ware_Proto_Unetice_Poland.SG


21.81025447
Bell_Beaker_Czech.SG


21.83292239
Anatolia_ChL


21.95647513
Unetice


22.00179765
British-AngloSaxon


22.12755748
Remedello_BA.SG


22.45759560
British-IA


23.09048938
BattleAxe_Sweden.SG


23.30482568
Nordic_Iron_Age


23.50348698
HungaryGamba_CA


23.94682442
Unetice_EBA.SG


24.29548312
Irish-BA


24.41342868
Nordic_MN_B.SG




Mine, just for camparsion:

K7b (Only Roman samples by Jovialis):


Distance to:
Duarte


7.40809017
R110_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


7.94598012
R61_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


8.12233341
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima


8.34727500
R109_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


8.36759822
R105_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


8.44770975
R1289_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


8.61048779
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


8.71397728
R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica


8.76621355
R63_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


9.01828698
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


9.14471432
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


9.15770168
R851_Iron_Age_Ardea


9.50033157
R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


9.51973739
R1221_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


10.75185100
R55_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


10.77838578
R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella


11.41226533
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro



K12b Ancient



Distance to:
Duarte


6.29661020
GironaSantJuliadeRamis_I10892


7.04433105
GironaSantJuliadeRamis_I10895


7.10911387
EarlyMedievalAndalusia_I3585


7.44879185
I12516_SE_Iberia_c.10-16CE


7.65793053
I12514_SE_Iberia_c.10-16CE


7.71679338
EarlyMedievalIberiaGranada_I3981


7.93623966
MedievalTaifaofValencia_I12649


7.98459141
R63_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


8.04299695
GironaSantJuliadeRamis_I10852


8.20189003
Roman-SoldierFN_2


8.46322043
I3982_SE_Iberia_c.3-4CE


8.60645107
CrusaderKnightFrenchLebanonCrusaderSI40


9.03262420
I7675_NE_Iberia_c.6-8CE_ES


9.06797662
R110_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


9.06809793
GironaSantJuliadeRamis_I10853


9.11247497
R1289_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


9.35114966
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


9.61505590
CarthagoMaghrebiAndalusia_I7457


9.69586510
I7673_NE_Iberia_c.6-8CE_ES


9.70581269
I12515_SE_Iberia_c.10-16CE


9.70581269
SpaniardCordobaCaliphate_I12515


9.71447374
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


9.81952137
France_BA_NIED


9.91529626
I3584_SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE


10.15667268
I3809_SE_Iberia_c.10-16CE


10.30660953
IberianCordobaCaliphate_I7498


10.39077957
GalloRomanCeltMixIberia_I10866


10.42890694
R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella


10.50049999
R105_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


10.65924481
Collegno94


10.75724872
I3574_SE_Iberia_c.5-8CE


10.92967978
I8343_NE_Iberia_Late_RomP


10.97051503
R109_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


10.99515348
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy



K13 Ancient:



Distance to:
Duarte


6.09658921
I0588_Tanzania_Zanzibar_First_Millenium_1150_ybp


8.24038227
Crusader_SI40_Kingdom_of_Jerusalem_


8.25348411
I12516_iberia_


8.34394990
R63_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy


8.62376368
R435b_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Republic


8.92209617
CL94_Italy_Langobard_1345_ybp


9.25470151
R1021_Lazio_Frosinone_Iron_Age_Latini


9.35311713
R109_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity


9.35986111
I1297_Bulgaria_MP_N_7817_ybp


9.38127923
RISE373_Hungary_Maros.SG_3741_ybp


9.61570590
FN2_Germany_Late_Roman.SG_1650_ybp


9.63605210
I12649_low_quality_


9.75201518
R1289_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy


9.78364452
R474b_Civitavecchia_Etruscan._Iron_Age


10.04314194
R110_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity


10.22253393
I3594_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4175_ybp


10.30758459
France_BA_PIR3037AB


10.31173118
E09538_Germany_Germany_Bell_Beaker_Augsburg_4288_y bp


10.33732074
I6539_Iberia_Bell_Beaker_4200_ybp


10.40913061
France_BA_QUIN234


10.49689002
I6581_Poland_Bell_Beaker_father.I6582_father.I6535 _4251_ybp



K15 Ancient



Distance to:
Duarte


6.76977104
I0588_Tanzania_Zanzibar_800AD_outlier(European)


8.24704796
IA_Prenestina_Colombella_R435


9.21567686
IA_Boville_Ernica_R1021


9.48283713
Swiss_CHE_IA_SX18


10.20174005
IA_Civitavecchia_R474


10.21657477
IA_Civitavecchia_R473


10.64023026
ScythianMoldova_SCY197


10.64999531
RomanSoldier_FN2



MDLP K16 Ancient (included coordinates produced by Jovialis):



Distance to:
Duarte


7.24151227
R63_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


8.35264030
Vatya.SG


8.76741695
Maros.SG


8.96794291
R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella


9.46885949
R1289_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


10.61928435
R109_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


10.79903236
R37_Imperial_Era_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis


10.83567257
R110_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


10.92091113
R116_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


11.30186268
R851_Iron_Age_Ardea


11.45433106
R61_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


11.52602707
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


11.64081612
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


11.67269892
R1288_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


11.85883215
R1220_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


11.88735883
R105_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


12.56787572
R1224_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


12.75842075
R108_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


12.98236111
R1221_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


13.81183550
R62_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


13.84957400
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima


14.01788144
R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica


14.09784735
Bell_Beaker_Germany.SG


14.22527680
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


14.60056163
British-Celtic

Salento
06-06-20, 20:25
https://i.imgur.com/iX1IVgh.gif
https://i.imgur.com/wzJgS70.jpg

bigsnake49
06-06-20, 21:45
Distance to:
Bigsnake49


6.93091625
MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_


7.23815584
scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp


8.93965883
R970_Lazio_Rome_Renaissance_Italy


9.75272270
STR310_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1430_ybp


10.65540239
SZ1.SG_longobard_hungary


10.89223118
SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp


11.31900614
R60_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy


12.23001635
R121_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity


12.29883328
R969_Lazio_Rome_Renaissance_Italy


12.37554847
scy197_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp


12.90686639
SZ37_Hungary_Langobard_1447_ybp


12.91550618
SZ36_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp


12.91969040
R57_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy


13.02544433
Crusader_SI53_Kingdom_of_Jerusalem_


13.16599787
I4131_Hungary_Bell_Beaker_EBA_4289_ybp


13.20845563
SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_60th_century


13.26707202
SZ32_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp


13.67420930
scy305_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2254_ybp


13.81502805
R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy


13.91325986
R36_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity


14.02878469
R1549_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial


14.34534768
scy300_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2253_ybp


14.44032894
R107_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity


14.56092717
R59_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy


14.71336467
R835_Marche_Roman_Imperial




I am not close to any on K13 Ancient

But on K13 Modern:


Distance to:
Bigsnake49


3.93396746
GR_Macedonia


4.17792521
Bulgarian_Thrace


4.51078707
Greek_Northern-Thrace


4.60983731
Macedonian_Greece


4.81396926
Greek_Thessaloniki


4.91988821
Greek_Western-Macedonia


4.93907886
Turk_Thessaloniki


5.00760422
Gagauz


5.01737979
Albanian_Montenegro


5.17606445
Kosovo_Albanian


5.24802820
Macedonian_Southeast


5.29830161
Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central


5.52763060
Pomak_Drama


5.57821656
Macedonian_Central


5.59732079
Turk_Kavala


5.62382432
Albanian_central_Albania


5.64665388
Pomak_Nevrokopi


5.66386794
Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East


5.80937174
Albanian


5.93704472
Pomak_Komotini


5.95047897
Bulgarian_North-Rhodope


6.03971854
Albanian_Kosovo


6.12099665
Bulgarian_Plovdiv


6.18434313
Turk_Kazanlik


6.19860468
Albanian_Albania

Duarte
06-06-20, 21:53
Forgot the results for World 9. As with most of the calculators which don't have the Szolad, Collegno, and all the Balkan samples, I'm closest to the Protovillanovan.



5.02847890
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


5.31779089
R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


5.74825191
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


5.75670044
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


5.93833310
R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


6.35736581
R55_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


6.83714122
R105_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


7.53388346
R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio


7.61102490
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


7.72309523
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


8.52307456
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima


9.56302776
R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


10.29455196
R110_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


10.74582244
R109_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


11.09371444
R970_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


11.17668108
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


11.30177862
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


11.50442089
R118_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


11.78722614
R1549_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo


11.95373582
R1221_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


12.12062705
R969_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


12.49628745
R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


12.56839687
R61_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


12.60475307
R121_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


12.72669635
R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi



On another thread I looked up all the Late Antiquity and Medieval samples, and they're the ones which come closest to modern Tuscan and Northern Italians, so it all makes sense.

I also forgot the Dodecad World 9, @Angela. My results with Roman coordinates produced by Jovialis, for comparison with your results:



Distance to:
Duarte


7.16847962
R110_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


7.81081942
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima


7.81655295
R61_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


8.13585890
R109_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


8.20187174
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


8.21802896
R105_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


8.80968217
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


8.86077310
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


9.06330514
R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica


9.14930052
R1289_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


9.22398504
R851_Iron_Age_Ardea


9.22998375
R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


9.25720260
R63_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


9.61504550
R1221_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


10.41810923
R55_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


11.15616422
R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella


11.35223766
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


11.65641454
R1220_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


12.08578918
R108_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


12.16939604
R1224_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


14.66159609
R116_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


15.86512212
R1219_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


15.99547436
R62_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


16.32805255
R106_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


16.68002998
R37_Imperial_Era_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis

bigsnake49
06-06-20, 22:10
K15 Ancient:


Distance to:
BigSnake49


13.11308507
Swiss_CHE_FN_contaminated_MX298


13.20831556
Swiss_CHE_EBA_SX23


13.37985052
Swiss_DEU_Anselfingen_FN_MX259


13.82611298
Swiss_DEU_Singen_EIA_MX265


14.37711028
MedievalHungarian_DA199


14.49730665
Scythian_SCY311


14.71235535
BR2_Hungary


15.00831103
Bavaria_STR310


15.10327779
Swiss_Corded_Ware_CHE_MX190


15.53361838
Swiss_DEU_Singen_EBA_MX279


15.74293492
France_IA_NOR2B6


15.98595946
Swiss_CHE_FN_steppe_MX304


16.67166758
Swiss_DEU_Singen_EBA_MX252


16.85691549
Swiss_Corded_Ware_CHE_MX198


16.97302271
Swiss_DEU_Singen_EBA_MX258


17.18385871
HallstattCelt_DA112


17.36376111
Swiss_Corded_Ware_CHE_MX188_rel190


17.48240258
Swiss_DEU_Singen_EBA_MX257


17.54208653
Swiss_DEU_Singen_EBA_MX254_relMX286


17.64482644
France_IA_ERS86


17.88690862
Swiss_FRA_Lingolsheim_FN_steppe_SX32


17.95356511
Swiss_DEU_Singen_EBA_MX251


18.76618501
Swiss_Corded_Ware_CHE_MX192_rel195_rel197


18.76647010
Sunghir6


19.03824309
France_IA_COL153i



That's bad!
K15 updated:


Distance to:
BigSnake49


6.99291070
Serbian


7.69027958
Moldavian


7.93629637
Slovenian


8.09855543
South_Serbian


8.20405160
Bosnian


8.24096096
Croat_Bosnia


8.27577791
Romania_Ne


8.32014536
Serbian_Bosnia


8.39892106
Szekely


8.57426965
Romania_Nw


8.58912103
Bosniak


8.82660866
Montenegrin


8.87165712
Hungarian


8.91168895
Croatian


9.26621821
Kaykavian_Croatian


9.32093879
Austrian


10.08127472
Romanian


10.52438597
Romania_Se


10.61493288
Austria-Burgenland


10.63733049
Romania_Sw


11.18911525
Czech


11.22098926
East_German


11.30662638
Austria-Tyrol


11.49264112
Romania_South


11.59915654
Slovak



That's even worse.

Palermo Trapani
06-06-20, 22:12
Salento/Jovialis: I get R1548 as my closest Roman distance on MTA as well. MTA PCA Plot. So Need to look at this again vs. the other calculators Does this look out of wack to you all?

1215012151

My top 25 Distances using Roman Samples for 5 Calculators (MTA from Roman period in attachment in quote above from my earlier post #2661)

121581215912160
1216112162

bigsnake49
06-06-20, 22:16
Dodecad 12b Ancient:


Distance to:
Bigsnake49


3.12413188
scy305_Scythian


6.99109433
Szolad37


9.38147643
Szolad1


10.03873996
Szolad31


10.37333119
I6491_NE_Iberia_RomP


10.42312813
Szolad36


10.63445814
CrusaderKnightApuliaAbruzzoLebanonCrusaderSI53


10.80562354
R1549_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo


10.82065617
R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


11.58068219
R970_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


11.66749330
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


12.00138325
scy192_Scythian


12.06230907
R121_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


12.08745217
Collegno36


12.09941321
I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.17004930
R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio


12.30970349
Szolad43


12.39637044
scy197_Scythian


12.61042029
R969_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


12.80823173
scy300_Scythian


13.10952326
scy301_Scythian


13.32503659
I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN


13.36309470
Szolad20


13.71358451
R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


13.82818499
R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna



I am pretty close to that Scythian

12b Modern:


Distance to:
Bigsnake49


2.77135346
Turk_Macedonia


3.90088452
Gagauz


4.12853485
R.Moldova_Gagauz


4.32381776
Turk_Greece


5.07389397
Albanian_Kosovo


5.32023496
Albanian_North


5.89291100
R.Moldova_South


6.50929336
Turk_Bulgaria


7.51843734
Turk_Romania


7.64808473
Pomak


7.95895722
Bulgarian


8.37008363
Macedonian


8.98593345
Bulgarians


9.31133718
Romanians


10.76731629
Montenegrin


11.14454907
Italy_Lazio


12.03977575
Crimean_Tatar_Coast


12.28287426
Greek


12.35047368
Italy_Romagna


12.58944034
Italy_Apulia


12.60820043
Italy_Marche


12.82268209
Italy_FriuliVG


13.58743169
Crimean_Tatar_Mountain


13.74110612
Italy_Veneto


13.77602481
Italy_Abruzzo




Hmmmmmmmmmm....

bigsnake49
06-06-20, 22:33
World 9 Ancient:


Distance to:
Bigsnake49


40.56650712
Ecuadorian


43.58489647
Athabask


45.34908158
MEX30


47.47639835
PEL30


49.86893823
Colombian


54.95595691
Maya


58.55997951
CLM30


59.30731742
Puerto_Rican


59.84574505
Colombians


60.16292214
Pima


60.46686696
Dominican


62.09249552
WestGreenland


62.45071016
EastGreenland


62.69517685
Karitiana


62.69517685
Surui


62.85352178
Uygur


63.66466210
AthabaskHD4


65.06734665
Hazara


65.58365040
PUR30


66.64008628
Uzbeks


67.66066213
Khasi


67.96223142
PANIYA


69.49983381
Burmanese


70.95857242
Mongol


71.44125699
Garo



Wow!

K7b:



Distance to:
BigSnake49


6.54411186
Bulgarian


6.75613795
O_Italian


7.71630741
Bulgarians


7.81004481
Tuscan


8.82311736
Romanians


9.21538930
TSI30


10.82919203
Greek


10.93532807
C_Italian


12.45605877
N_Italian


14.10770711
North_Italian


17.35964861
S_Italian_Sicilian


18.52362276
Sicilian


19.72649487
Ashkenazy_Jews


19.92588517
Ashkenazi


20.89046194
Baleares


21.80643483
Murcia


21.98691884
Extremadura


22.09546107
Andalucia


22.34091762
Canarias


22.43665305
Galicia


22.48658711
Portuguese


23.13172281
Spaniards


24.29816042
Castilla_Y_Leon


24.43479896
Castilla_La_Mancha


24.73882374
Spanish



Dodecad does not like me. Well I will take Dodecad 12b Ancient and K13 Modern thank you very much.

Angela
06-06-20, 23:47
@BigSnake,
I would suggest redoing World 9 and checking your coordinates for it.

It seems to have broken under the strain.:)

Salento
07-06-20, 01:01
Ötzi (Oetzi)
The Iceman

... he’s not in my Top 100, but he made it in my Deep Dive and Chroma Analysis:

https://i.imgur.com/9yN9ih9.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/AdCFDHp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/7zqbl4n.jpg

Duarte
07-06-20, 01:18
Ötzi (Oetzi)
The Iceman

... he’s not in my Top 100, but he made it in my Deep Dive and Chroma Analysis:

https://i.imgur.com/9yN9ih9.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/AdCFDHp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/7zqbl4n.jpg

Ötzi is not my ancestral cousin. I haven’t chromosome match with him. :indifferent::sad-2:

Salento
07-06-20, 01:31
Ötzi is not my ancestral cousin. I haven’t chromosome match with him. :indifferent::sad-2:

I didn’t know about Ötzi results until I re-uploaded my Raw-Data ... :)

Duarte
07-06-20, 01:34
I didn’t know about Ötzi results until I re-uploaded my Raw-Data ... :)

I did this and....Nothing :sad-2:

Salento
07-06-20, 02:29
Deep Dives of Top Ancient samples of various calculators.

Dodecad K7 R1290 - Dod World-9 R437, Dod K12 R57
MDLP K16 R969
EUrorogenes k15 R56

Top Dodecad K7:
https://i.imgur.com/CjDTBQ8.jpg


Top Dodecad World 9:
https://i.imgur.com/ew7ogyn.jpg


Top Dodecad K12:
https://i.imgur.com/M91S85B.jpg


Top MDLP K16:
https://i.imgur.com/Upg9JaX.jpg


Top Eurogenes K15:
https://i.imgur.com/x0I3kVP.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/wzJgS70.jpg


https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38222-Mytrueancestry-com?p=605176&viewfull=1#post605176

bigsnake49
07-06-20, 02:41
@BigSnake,
I would suggest redoing World 9 and checking your coordinates for it.

It seems to have broken under the strain.:)

I found that for some reason Gedmatch was giving the sorted coordinates. Here are the new results:



Distance to:
Bigsnake49


6.27910025
Bulgarian


7.15968575
O_Italian


7.18436497
Romanians


7.59169283
Bulgarians


7.83090672
Tuscan


8.00181854
TSI30


9.72600123
C_Italian


12.05456345
Greek


12.67766540
N_Italian


13.60210645
North_Italian


16.93260464
Ashkenazy_Jews


17.40353700
Sicilian


17.64571053
S_Italian_Sicilian


18.39011419
S_Italian


18.74825592
Ashkenazi


19.16340523
Baleares


20.29342504
Murcia


20.66739219
Brazilian


20.88748668
Andalucia


20.91332829
Canarias


21.22548233
Extremadura


22.06241374
Portuguese


22.22829503
Galicia


22.76495772
Spaniards


22.97400923
Castilla_La_Mancha

Duarte
07-06-20, 03:37
I also forgot the Dodecad World 9, @Angela. My results with Roman coordinates produced by Jovialis, for comparison with your results:



Distance to:
Duarte


7.16847962
R110_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


7.81081942
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima


7.81655295
R61_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


8.13585890
R109_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


8.20187174
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


8.21802896
R105_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


8.80968217
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


8.86077310
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


9.06330514
R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica


9.14930052
R1289_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


9.22398504
R851_Iron_Age_Ardea


9.22998375
R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


9.25720260
R63_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


9.61504550
R1221_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


10.41810923
R55_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


11.15616422
R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella


11.35223766
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


11.65641454
R1220_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


12.08578918
R108_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


12.16939604
R1224_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


14.66159609
R116_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


15.86512212
R1219_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


15.99547436
R62_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


16.32805255
R106_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


16.68002998
R37_Imperial_Era_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis





WOW.
I had not given much importance to this calculator, but comparing my results with this PCA I was impressed with the accuracy to capture ancestral peoples in my specific case.

https://i.imgur.com/jXnNyZB.png

https://i.imgur.com/GIxFucv.jpg

Very interesting.

Duarte
07-06-20, 04:20
WOW.
I had not given much importance to this calculator, but comparing my results with this PCA I was impressed with the accuracy to capture ancestral peoples in my specific case.

https://i.imgur.com/jXnNyZB.png

https://i.imgur.com/GIxFucv.jpg

Very interesting.

My MTA’s Deep Dive matches (Antonio et al samples):

https://i.imgur.com/CA3XQXK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/akzPiFb.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/eZ9mvkZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/z8NHohZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bmEqufK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9REUQtU.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/472QuPa.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/viAF40h.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/EtJJBKu.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uB8NZfs.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rUN5vZK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MD6AVVM.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/k9vBmXx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PnYdw0T.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2etlPGF.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/oij0jmz.jpg

Salento
07-06-20, 05:09
maybe, ... Ötzi and SZ1 share some Common Ancestry, ... I guess.

https://i.imgur.com/WBpR9Xf.jpg

Palermo Trapani
07-06-20, 05:13
Salento: What level are you up to now at MTA. I am up to Zeus. I get top 100 I think with this level and it will give me a few extra outlier samples I guess as "Temptation"

Duarte
07-06-20, 05:52
My MTA’s Deep Dive matches (Antonio et al samples):

https://i.imgur.com/CA3XQXK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/akzPiFb.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/eZ9mvkZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/z8NHohZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bmEqufK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9REUQtU.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/472QuPa.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/viAF40h.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/EtJJBKu.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uB8NZfs.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rUN5vZK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MD6AVVM.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/k9vBmXx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PnYdw0T.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2etlPGF.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/oij0jmz.jpg

These friendly Roman WHG improve my distance adjustment on the W9, but they also put me almost entirely in late antiquity/antiquity.
https://i.imgur.com/6ygSIri.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5SiFkwd.png

Salento
07-06-20, 05:55
Salento: What level are you up to now at MTA. I am up to Zeus. I get top 100 I think with this level and it will give me a few extra outlier samples I guess as "Temptation"

... Zeus :)

... I usually bypass the Outliers, ... I haven't checked yet how we relate to the “Outliers”, or what it is all about.

Palermo Trapani
07-06-20, 06:36
Ok, thanks.

Salento
07-06-20, 16:04
I did this and....Nothing :sad-2:

try: ... GedMatch 1 to 1, Ötzi # T882519
(change “value = 7” with 1)

1-to-1 vs Q-Matching vs MTA
(Mexican Standoff) :grin:

Largest Segment:
6.9 cM vs 8.12 cM vs 12.53 cM

Free One-to-One autosomal comparison:

https://i.imgur.com/CrhWP2h.jpg


Tier1 Q-Matching One-to-One (older):

https://i.imgur.com/igj0GK4.jpg


MTA:

https://i.imgur.com/9yN9ih9.jpg

Duarte
07-06-20, 16:58
try: ... GedMatch 1 to 1, Ötzi # T882519
(change “value = 7” with 1)

1-to-1 vs Q-Matching vs MTA
(Mexican Standoff) :grin:

Largest Segment:
6.9 cM vs 8.12 cM vs 12.53 cM

Free One-to-One autosomal comparison:

https://i.imgur.com/CrhWP2h.jpg


Tier1 Q-Matching One-to-One (older):

https://i.imgur.com/igj0GK4.jpg


MTA:

https://i.imgur.com/9yN9ih9.jpg

Very cool.
Below, a little consolation for me. I really wanted to see him on my MTA deep dive. :smile:

https://i.imgur.com/uFr8J8r.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LZ3eoTZ.png

Salento
07-06-20, 18:25
Very cool.
Below, a little consolation for me. I really wanted to see him on my MTA deep dive. :smile:

https://i.imgur.com/uFr8J8r.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LZ3eoTZ.png
https://i.imgur.com/QrbUdmy.jpg

Duarte
07-06-20, 18:32
https://i.imgur.com/QrbUdmy.jpg

Ötzi is "alpha". No woman in Brazil would resist the charm of an alpine warrior and hunter.

Carlos
07-06-20, 19:08
GEDmatch® Autosomal One-to-one Comparison - V1.0


Comparing Kit T882519 (Iceman_2) [Migration - F2 - T] and XXXX (Carlos) [FTDNA]

Segment threshold size will be adjusted dynamically between 200 and 400 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 7.0 cM
Mismatch-bunching Limit will be adjusted dynamically to 60 percent of the segment threshold size for any given segment.



Chr
B37 Start Pos'n
B37 End Pos'n
Centimorgans (cM)
SNPs


8
140,934,805
146,145,702
7.5
269




Largest segment = 7.5 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 7.5 cM (0.208 Pct)
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 7.5

1 shared segments found for this comparison.

144753 SNPs used for this comparison.

42.470 Pct SNPs are full identical

Warning: Kit T882519 contains no DNA data for the X chromosome.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_HCaw2XsAAnJzA.jpg

Angela
07-06-20, 20:57
Hmmm...

He looks like he probably has nits in his hair and beard, his nose is ugly, and he has a meh or worse body. :)

Largest segment = 7.5 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 28.2 cM (0.786 Pct)

6 shared segments found for this comparison.

147157 SNPs used for this comparison.

42.285 Pct SNPs are full identical

Comparison took 0.243 seconds.
CPU time used: 0.032 cpu seconds.


Now we're talking...The Bronzes of Riace...
https://xicomalta.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/bronzes-of-riace.jpg?w=720

Angela
07-06-20, 21:16
Hmmm...

He looks like he probably has nits in his hair and beard, his nose is ugly, and he has a meh or worse body. :)

Largest segment = 7.5 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 28.2 cM (0.786 Pct)

6 shared segments found for this comparison.

147157 SNPs used for this comparison.

42.285 Pct SNPs are full identical

Comparison took 0.243 seconds.
CPU time used: 0.032 cpu seconds.


Now we're talking...The Bronzes of Riace...
https://xicomalta.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/bronzes-of-riace.jpg?w=720

Forgot my husband's results:

Largest segment = 5.7 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 64.7 cM (1.808 Pct)

16 shared segments found for this comparison.

222286 SNPs used for this comparison.

43.090 Pct SNPs are full identical

Comparison took 0.257 seconds.
CPU time used: 0.036 cpu seconds.

Joey37
07-06-20, 23:19
I don't match Otzi-who kind of reminds me of my Dad-but I do match this guy! I had a great-great-great-great-grandfather born in Bath, not far from Cheddar in north-eastern Somersetshire, John Henry Wilkins.12163

Salento
08-06-20, 04:47
Bronze-Age Roman map: Ötzi, ....

https://i.imgur.com/gw6T0Uj.jpg

flupke
08-06-20, 17:55
I am French with all known ancestry from French and Belgian Flanders, same for my wife.

Me:
Frank (4.458)
Visigoth + Saxon (4.891)
Visigoth + Frank (5.15)
Viking Danish + Visigoth (5.491)
Saxon + Frank (5.713)
Viking Norwegian + Visigoth (5.728)
Visigoth (6.41)
Saxon (8.174)
Viking Danish (10.42)
Viking Norwegian (10.7)

My First son:
Viking Danish + Frank (3.008)
Saxon + Frank (3.113)
Visigoth + Celt (3.153)
Celt + Frank (3.255)
Visigoth + Frank (3.69)
Frank (4.628)
Saxon (4.837)
Visigoth (6.199)
Viking Danish (6.536)
Celt (7.744)

My second son:
Viking Norwegian + Visigoth (3.357)
Viking Norwegian + Frank (3.644)
Visigoth + Longobard (4.074)
Longobard + Frank (4.216)
Saxon + Frank (4.863)
Frank (6.368)
Viking Norwegian (6.944)
Saxon (7.281)
Visigoth (7.898)
Longobard (8.131)

OK our Y Haplogroup is I1 L22+ (I1a1b1g2) but why all these Vikings ?

Another question: Our modern population matches are mostly amongst Flemish, Dutch, West Germans, North Germans but also WELSH ??? I Have noticed that a love of Belgians also have Welsh as a match. Sounds rather paradoxal to me. Any explanation ?

Palermo Trapani
10-06-20, 03:40
Salento: Nice Bronze Age map in post #2722. Some of my Bronze Age genetic matches are in Ancient Greece so not showing up on the Ancient Rome Regional Archaeogenetics Map. However, Otzi is now In for me as well.

12182

Salento
10-06-20, 04:31
Salento: Nice Bronze Age map in post #2722. Some of my Bronze Age genetic matches are in Ancient Greece so not showing up on the Ancient Rome Regional Archaeogenetics Map. However, Otzi is now In for me as well.

12182


... nice
I noticed, ... sometimes, re-uploading the Raw-Data makes a difference, refreshing alone won’t cut it :)

Palermo Trapani
10-06-20, 05:33
... nice
I noticed, ... sometimes, re-uploading the Raw-Data makes a difference, refreshing alone won’t cut it :)

Yes I realized that as well. You have to re-upload periodically to get any new Samples MTA has in their data base. R1 in your map is the oldest Iron Age Roman I think in Antonio et al 2019 dating to 900 BC.

Palermo Trapani
10-06-20, 05:49
Salento: I went through the Antonio et al 2019 supplement and it cited in the references in the supplement this paper which I had actually forgot about. I have not been able to get a full copy of the Emery et al 2018 paper but after going through the Antonio Supplement, it has some interesting data.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X17308568?via%3Dihub


From the paper it states that 15 Iron Age samples from Southern Italy were used in the paper linked above Emery et al 2018. Antonio et al 2019 compared the mtdna Haplogroups in their paper to the 15 in the Emery paper. The Emery Iron age samples come from Botromagno, Puglia. I see there was a thread on this paper back in 2018 and you posted in it. Do you know if these samples have ever been made publicly available. If not, maybe Jovialis or Angela know what is the deal with them. Would be really good to see how those show up in MTA and how they plot with the 11 Iron Age in Antonio et al 2019.

Iron Age and Roman Republic (900-27 BCE; n=11)


Among the 11 Iron Age and Roman Republic individuals in the time-series reported here, the
mitochondrial haplogroups H (n=5, 45%), I (n=2), K (n=1), U (n=1), and T (n=2) are represented. In a
study of 15 individuals from Botromagno, in southern Italy, from the same time period (800-500 BCE),
Emery et. al. found similar frequencies of the H haplogroup, at ~46% (7/15 individuals) (64). In contrast
to Iron Age individuals studied here, the U haplogroup was found at much higher levels in Botromagno
individuals, at 40% (6/15 individuals). Among the Botromagno Iron Age individuals, haplogroups V and
J (both n = 1) were also represented, however they were not present in any of the 11 Iron Age individuals
reported here.

Salento
10-06-20, 06:31
Salento: I went through the Antonio et al 2019 supplement and it cited in the references in the supplement this paper which I had actually forgot about. I have not been able to get a full copy of the Emery et al 2018 paper but after going through the Antonio Supplement, it has some interesting data.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X17308568?via%3Dihub


From the paper it states that 15 Iron Age samples from Southern Italy were used in the paper linked above Emery et al 2018. Antonio et al 2019 compared the mtdna Haplogroups in their paper to the 15 in the Emery paper. The Emery Iron age samples come from Botromagno, Puglia. I see there was a thread on this paper back in 2018 and you posted in it. Do you know if these samples have ever been made publicly available. If not, maybe Jovialis or Angela know what is the deal with them. Would be really good to see how those show up in MTA and how they plot with the 11 Iron Age in Antonio et al 2019.

Iron Age and Roman Republic (900-27 BCE; n=11)


Among the 11 Iron Age and Roman Republic individuals in the time-series reported here, the
mitochondrial haplogroups H (n=5, 45%), I (n=2), K (n=1), U (n=1), and T (n=2) are represented. In a
study of 15 individuals from Botromagno, in southern Italy, from the same time period (800-500 BCE),
Emery et. al. found similar frequencies of the H haplogroup, at ~46% (7/15 individuals) (64). In contrast
to Iron Age individuals studied here, the U haplogroup was found at much higher levels in Botromagno
individuals, at 40% (6/15 individuals). Among the Botromagno Iron Age individuals, haplogroups V and
J (both n = 1) were also represented, however they were not present in any of the 11 Iron Age individuals
reported here.

I don’t know if the Iron-Age Southern Italians / Pugliesi data and DNA is publicly available, maybe Jovialis or Angela know more about it :)

Salento
10-06-20, 08:08
Interesting ... from the latest Ancient Romans coordinates (by Jovialis) Iron-Age Latin R437 and two Apulians like samples are in my “Single” results:

https://i.imgur.com/wPUQvW1.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/fiZKWvc.jpg


... fyi, Apulia is also R437 Top match in the K36 similarity rate :)


https://i.imgur.com/GHtdi2h.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/967fTty.jpg


https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39501-Moots-Ancient-Rome-Paper?p=590175&viewfull=1#post590175

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39706-Ancient-Rome-Test-(Various-Calculators)/page7?p=605259#post605259

https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

R437_Iron_Age_Praeneste,0,3.76,4.46,1.94,0,1.18,0, 0,5.13,0,0,14.54,0,0,5.51,9.17,0,23.54,0,7.86,0,3. 74,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,8.38,10.78

Palermo Trapani
10-06-20, 14:43
87 K36 score for R437 and Puglia. Wow. Reading my map, that is 82 for West Sicily and Calabria, 83 for Campania, and 81 for Lazio and South East/East Sicily and 80 Malta. The 79 and 76 look like Emila and Tuscany.

Jovialis
10-06-20, 14:54
Salento: I went through the Antonio et al 2019 supplement and it cited in the references in the supplement this paper which I had actually forgot about. I have not been able to get a full copy of the Emery et al 2018 paper but after going through the Antonio Supplement, it has some interesting data.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X17308568?via%3Dihub


From the paper it states that 15 Iron Age samples from Southern Italy were used in the paper linked above Emery et al 2018. Antonio et al 2019 compared the mtdna Haplogroups in their paper to the 15 in the Emery paper. The Emery Iron age samples come from Botromagno, Puglia. I see there was a thread on this paper back in 2018 and you posted in it. Do you know if these samples have ever been made publicly available. If not, maybe Jovialis or Angela know what is the deal with them. Would be really good to see how those show up in MTA and how they plot with the 11 Iron Age in Antonio et al 2019.

Iron Age and Roman Republic (900-27 BCE; n=11)


Among the 11 Iron Age and Roman Republic individuals in the time-series reported here, the
mitochondrial haplogroups H (n=5, 45%), I (n=2), K (n=1), U (n=1), and T (n=2) are represented. In a
study of 15 individuals from Botromagno, in southern Italy, from the same time period (800-500 BCE),
Emery et. al. found similar frequencies of the H haplogroup, at ~46% (7/15 individuals) (64). In contrast
to Iron Age individuals studied here, the U haplogroup was found at much higher levels in Botromagno
individuals, at 40% (6/15 individuals). Among the Botromagno Iron Age individuals, haplogroups V and
J (both n = 1) were also represented, however they were not present in any of the 11 Iron Age individuals
reported here.

Actually, I took a picture from the article about that study that was featured in Archeology, a few issues back. It seems that the estate was composed of local populations, with two outliers that were probably slaves.:


Using isotope analysis, and DNA studies, Prowse's team has also demonstrated that the majority of those interred in the cemetery came from the region. "many people have this idea that when Rome came into the area, they would boot everyone out and then import foreign slaves", Prowse says, "but that's not what happened here. this estate relied more heavily on local populations".

https://i.imgur.com/MdcjGsj.jpg

Salento
10-06-20, 15:25
87 K36 score for R437 and Puglia. Wow. Reading my map, that is 82 for West Sicily and Calabria, 83 for Campania, and 81 for Lazio and South East/East Sicily and 80 Malta. The 79 and 76 look like Emila and Tuscany.

Obviously we don’t know what all Apulians were like in 300 BC, but if the K36 map is right, in our time R437 is a Pizzicato Tarantato, ... heavily bitten by the Tarantula, lol :)

... some MTA deep dive Pugliesi-like and R437:

https://i.imgur.com/KrHIVFM.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NWKTAvw.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/iq9cgY7.jpg

... came from Rome:


https://youtu.be/dzyCwoqOZ9U

Palermo Trapani
10-06-20, 15:34
Actually, I took a picture from the article about that study that was featured in Archeology, a few issues back. It seems that the estate was composed of local populations, with two outliers that were probably slaves.:


Using isotope analysis, and DNA studies, Prowse's team has also demonstrated that the majority of those interred in the cemetery came from the region. "many people have this idea that when Rome came into the area, they would boot everyone out and then import foreign slaves", Prowse says, "but that's not what happened here. this estate relied more heavily on local populations".

https://i.imgur.com/MdcjGsj.jpg


Jovialis: Thanks. My Institution got rid of its Elseiver subscription about 2 years ago so I can't get anything from that group except through inter library loan. Do you know if the Samples in that study will be made available to the public. The 2 From Asia, really? I have read some articles that have come out last 5 years or so that documents Greeks going to China in 3rd Century BC, so maybe that is the link and there was contact even earlier.

Palermo Trapani
10-06-20, 15:37
Salento: Yes, that is a strong match you have with R437, really a strong one. If those other samples from Puglia from Emery et al 2018 are ever made public and are enough quality for MTA to analyze like they did with the Antonio et al 2019 samples, you may have other close matches like R437. Jovialis noted that 13 of the 15 were locals from Puglia vs. 2 immigrants from Asia likely.

Salento
10-06-20, 15:56
Salento: Yes, that is a strong match you have with R437, really a strong one. If those other samples from Puglia from Emery et al 2018 are ever made public and are enough quality for MTA to analyze like they did with the Antonio et al 2019 samples, you may have other close matches like R437. Jovialis noted that 13 of the 15 were locals from Puglia vs. 2 immigrants from Asia likely.

... another Pugliese is probably closer to R437 than me :)

Jovialis
10-06-20, 16:04
Jovialis: Thanks. My Institution got rid of its Elseiver subscription about 2 years ago so I can't get anything from that group except through inter library loan. Do you know if the Samples in that study will be made available to the public. The 2 From Asia, really? I have read some articles that have come out last 5 years or so that documents Greeks going to China in 3rd Century BC, so maybe that is the link and there was contact even earlier.

I tried looking for it, but couldn't find anything.

It is suprising, but those two are negligible, because there is clearly no East Asian genetic legacy left behind in the region. Slaves had very short lives.

Palermo Trapani
10-06-20, 18:10
... another Pugliese is probably closer to R437 than me :)

Ok I think that person probably posts here often, probably even in this thread! Wow that is really, really interesting, 2 people that post here whose ancestors are from Puglia getting close matches like that.

Palermo Trapani
10-06-20, 18:19
I tried looking for it, but couldn't find anything.

It is suprising, but those two are negligible, because there is clearly no East Asian genetic legacy left behind in the region. Slaves had very short lives.

Ok thanks, to bad those samples are not available. Maybe they are doing additional excavations in that area and collecting more samples to analyze (publish additional papers) before releasing them. At least I hope so. Also, I agree, it is surprising. I have never seen any East Asian genetic legacy in any of the comprehensive DNA studies on modern Italy. So they were likely Slaves maybe brought over by the Greeks. I am not aware of any trade routes from Southern Italy to China dating back to that time. The Silk road was linking Persia and China by 500 BC so that could have resulted in some ancient Chinese individuals winding up that far West.

Salento
13-06-20, 03:06
Oetzi (Ötzi) Spotlight
front and back and check out his Ink :)

https://i.imgur.com/l9pO2DN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1jDJXTG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ltI7524.jpg

... I’m over 90% closer than the other matches,

... Scientifically it means that Ötzi in his Prime was Smart and Very Good Looking, lol :grin:

Duarte
13-06-20, 03:25
Oetzi (Ötzi) Spotlight
front and back and check out his Ink :)

https://i.imgur.com/l9pO2DN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1jDJXTG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ltI7524.jpg

... I’m over 90% closer than the other matches,

... Scientifically it means that Ötzi in his Prime was Smart and Very Good Looking, lol :grin:

Congratulations dear friend Salento. Very very cool. You are cousin of a real Native European from Alps. It's a really fascinating feat. :good_job::smile:

Carlos
13-06-20, 03:31
Nothing.


Well, I painted those lines on my hand when I was a teenager. I want to hunt deer on the snowy peaks. I will have lost it in one of my marriages.

matadworf
13-06-20, 03:35
Yeah it's fun and everything but their modern pop averages are inaccurate (at least in my case) and haven't been updated recently. There's no real genetic/historical explanation of specific ancient group samples. For instance; tell me about the Seleucian sample? Is it a Macedonian (Paleo Balkan) sample from the Hellenistic period or something much later. I need more clarity/explanation to take this site seriously.

Salento
13-06-20, 03:59
Congratulations dear friend Salento. Very very cool. You are cousin of a real Native European from Alps. It's a really fascinating feat. :good_job::smile:

https://i.imgur.com/869x3ei.jpg

Duarte
13-06-20, 04:16
https://i.imgur.com/869x3ei.jpg

Thank you:good_job::smile:

Palermo Trapani
13-06-20, 04:51
Salento: Wow, 90% closer than others.:good_job: That is really incredible. I am 56% closer so in the upper half of the distribution. So Otzi is a long lost relative of mine as well, we need to figure out who did him in.

12191

Salento
13-06-20, 04:54
Nothing.
Well, I painted those lines on my hand when I was a teenager. I want to hunt deer on the snowy peaks. I will have lost it in one of my marriages.
They say:

... “ it is thought if you have ancestors stem from the region between Sardinia and the Alps, there is a chance you could be related to Ötzi” ...

https://i.imgur.com/VJXHAmj.jpg

Salento
13-06-20, 05:59
Salento: Wow, 90% closer than others.:good_job: That is really incredible. I am 56% closer so in the upper half of the distribution. So Otzi is a long lost relative of mine as well, we need to figure out who did him in.

12191

It's never too late for Vendetta :)

maybe a clue:
they can’t find Otzi mtDNA in the modern population,

maybe his Tribe was attacked causing heavy casualties, among women too (ending / diminishing Otzi mtDNA line),

he got injured during the battle, and when all was lost he tried to get away, but he died in his way to safety.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4725900/