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Angela
16-04-19, 04:23
It's raining papers. :)


See: Federico Sánchez-Quinto et alMegalithic tombs in western and northern Neolithic Europe were linked to a kindred societyhttps://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/04/09/1818037116Federico Sánchez-Quinto

"A new phenomenon of constructing distinctive funerary monuments, collectively known as megalithic tombs, emerged around 4500 BCE along the Atlantic façade. The megalithic phenomenon has attracted interest and speculation since medieval times. In particular, the origin, dispersal dynamics, and the role of these constructions within the societies that built them have been debated. We generate genome sequence data from 24 individuals buried in five megaliths and investigate the population history and social dynamics of the groups that buried their dead in megalithic monuments across northwestern Europe in the fourth millennium BCE. Our results show kin relations among the buried individuals and an overrepresentation of males, suggesting that at least some of these funerary monuments were used by patrilineal societies.AbstractPaleogenomic and archaeological studies show that Neolithic lifeways spread from the Fertile Crescent into Europe around 9000 BCE, reaching northwestern Europe by 4000 BCE. Starting around 4500 BCE, a new phenomenon of constructing megalithic monuments, particularly for funerary practices, emerged along the Atlantic façade. While it has been suggested that the emergence of megaliths was associated with the territories of farming communities, the origin and social structure of the groups that erected them has remained largely unknown. We generated genome sequence data from human remains, corresponding to 24 individuals from five megalithic burial sites, encompassing the widespread tradition of megalithic construction in northern and western Europe, and analyzed our results in relation to the existing European paleogenomic data. The various individuals buried in megaliths show genetic affinities with local farming groups within their different chronological contexts. Individuals buried in megaliths display (past) admixture with local hunter-gatherers, similar to that seen in other Neolithic individuals in Europe. In relation to the tomb populations, we find significantly more males than females buried in the megaliths of the British Isles. The genetic data show close kin relationships among the individuals buried within the megaliths, and for the Irish megaliths, we found a kin relation between individuals buried in different megaliths. We also see paternal continuity through time, including the same Y-chromosome haplotypes reoccurring. These observations suggest that the investigated funerary monuments were associated with patrilineal kindred groups. Our genomic investigation provides insight into the people associated with this long-standing megalith funerary tradition, including their social dynamics."

Angela
16-04-19, 04:41
https://i.imgur.com/dZkQeIi.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/Eu9xsBP.png




Ydna and mtDna: Lots of K1a4, and some H1, but not as much as I expected.
https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/04/09/1818037116/tab-figures-data

bicicleur
16-04-19, 08:00
G2a is very rare in megalithic
I2a1b1 seems to be the origin, along with farmers daughters
somewhere in the fringes of Cardial Ware south the Pyrenees and north of Lissabon
and a first spread both along the Atlantic and into the Provence, SE France

halfalp
16-04-19, 08:39
So many I2a y-dna and not that much WHG, just like Globular Amphora. Not once WHG mtdna in those samples.

Ygorcs
16-04-19, 09:46
Paleogenomic and archaeological studies show that Neolithic lifeways spread from the Fertile Crescent into Europe around 9000 BCE >>> Wow, really as early as 9000 BCE or is that a typo?

Angela
16-04-19, 14:55
So many I2a y-dna and not that much WHG, just like Globular Amphora. Not once WHG mtdna in those samples.

There are two U5b2, but it's a small percentage of the total.

bicicleur
16-04-19, 15:39
Paleogenomic and archaeological studies show that Neolithic lifeways spread from the Fertile Crescent into Europe around 9000 BCE >>> Wow, really as early as 9000 BCE or is that a typo?

it must be a typo, 9000 BP

halfalp
16-04-19, 17:29
Before the big cultures of Neolithic Europe such as LBK, Starcevo and Vinca. It seems that there was a primitive neolithic in greece and the balkans, probably already seen in lepenski vir ( archeologically and mtdna H13 ). Maybe even a pre-pottery neolithic, but not as early as 9'000 BCE.

elghund
16-04-19, 19:45
I wonder if all those K1a-195C's in Primrose Grange were actually mtDNA K1a10's. K1a10 is a subclade of K1a-195C and it appears to be concentrated in Britain, Ireland and Scandinavia. Did they test the markers needed to know?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10939

Regio X
16-04-19, 20:52
Paleogenomic and archaeological studies show that Neolithic lifeways spread from the Fertile Crescent into Europe around 9000 BCE >>> Wow, really as early as 9000 BCE or is that a typo?Yep, probably a typo. At best, 10300 ybp. Cyprus is in Europe after all. :)

https://i.imgur.com/RApDMGS.jpg

Ygorcs
16-04-19, 22:51
The various individuals buried in megaliths show genetic affinities with local farming groups within their different chronological contexts. Individuals buried in megaliths display (past) admixture with local hunter-gatherers, similar to that seen in other Neolithic individuals in Europe.

Then it seems that the hypothesis that at least some of the WHG resurgence was related to the expansion of Megolithic people along the Atlantic is not substantiated. Also, I don't know how to interpret the fact that the individuals show "genetic affinities with local farming groups within their different chronological contexts". Was it then just a new (more maritime0 economic trend and a new sociocultural way of the elites to show power and prestige, and therefore it spread more as a cultural phenomenon than as the expansion of any particular population?

Angela
16-04-19, 23:49
Then it seems that the hypothesis that at least some of the WHG resurgence was related to the expansion of Megolithic people along the Atlantic is not substantiated. Also, I don't know how to interpret the fact that the individuals show "genetic affinities with local farming groups within their different chronological contexts". Was it then just a new (more maritime0 economic trend and a new sociocultural way of the elites to show power and prestige, and therefore it spread more as a cultural phenomenon than as the expansion of any particular population?

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That's what it seems like to me.

bicicleur
17-04-19, 08:09
Then it seems that the hypothesis that at least some of the WHG resurgence was related to the expansion of Megolithic people along the Atlantic is not substantiated. Also, I don't know how to interpret the fact that the individuals show "genetic affinities with local farming groups within their different chronological contexts". Was it then just a new (more maritime0 economic trend and a new sociocultural way of the elites to show power and prestige, and therefore it spread more as a cultural phenomenon than as the expansion of any particular population?

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there is the wide spread of I2a1b1-L161 which seems to be widespread from Iberia to Scandinavia along with megaliths (but also in Esperstedt)
and there are also more local subclades of I2a, like I2a2a1a1a-L1195 in the British Isles and I2a1a1-M26 which expanded from Iberia to Sardegna

but all of these sublcades seem to have admixed with farmers before megalithism
I2a1b1-L161 was in Els Trocs 7,3 ka

O Neill
17-04-19, 20:47
Couple of things that still dont sit right with me
1 Gobekli Tepe. If these farmers built Gobekli why wait 6 or 7 thousand years before building something else ?

2 What language were these farmers speaking and why would they dump it for the language of Nomadic horse riding herders ?
Were talking advanced boat building and constuction technology along with farming knowlege and trade.
To then completely adopt another language ? makes no sense ?

Id say its still wide open regarding WHG, PIE and farmers concerning Language, Metal working boat building and such like.
It changes daily and right now WHG is not even being given megalithic building to its credit.

Somebody should start a poll because i feel theres a few more twists and turns to go yet.

How do know WHG didnt land in turkey around 11000bc From ships Teach PIE to the Pie People, and enslave farmers to grow food on there land ;)

CrazyDonkey
20-04-19, 00:03
Paleogenomic and archaeological studies show that Neolithic lifeways spread from the Fertile Crescent into Europe around 9000 BCE >>> Wow, really as early as 9000 BCE or is that a typo?

9000 BCE from the Fertile Crescent...

Joey37
20-04-19, 02:43
J1c represent! Wow, Neolithic only had 1000 years in south Sweden before Corded Ware showed up.

Maleth
06-05-19, 22:30
Funny that the Maltese Megalithic s are not even mentioned not even on the map. First megalithic temple dates 7000 YBP. What kind of study was this?!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalithic_Temples_of_Malta

bicicleur
06-05-19, 22:48
Funny that the Maltese Megalithic s are not even mentioned not even on the map. First megalithic temple dates 7000 YBP. What kind of study was this?!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalithic_Temples_of_Malta

what can you tell if you don't have Maltese DNA from this period and there are no clear connections with megalithic sites elsewhere?

Maleth
07-05-19, 21:50
what can you tell if you don't have Maltese DNA from this period and there are no clear connections with megalithic sites elsewhere?

Of course, Good reasons to conclude they do not exist.

MOESAN
10-05-19, 23:20
G2a is very rare in megalithic
I2a1b1 seems to be the origin, along with farmers daughters
somewhere in the fringes of Cardial Ware south the Pyrenees and north of Lissabon
and a first spread both along the Atlantic and into the Provence, SE France

Is not there a rising of Y-I2a2 among Megalithers too?