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bicicleur
18-04-19, 18:54
During the medieval period, hundreds of thousands of Europeans migrated to the Near East to take part in the Crusades, and many of them settled in the newly established Christian states along the Eastern Mediterranean coast. Here, we present a genetic snapshot of these events and their aftermath by sequencing the whole genomes of 13 individuals who lived in what is today known as Lebanon between the 3rd and 13th centuries CE. These include nine individuals from the “Crusaders’ pit” in Sidon, a mass burial in South Lebanon identified from the archaeology as the grave of Crusaders killed during a battle in the 13th century CE. We show that all of the Crusaders’ pit individuals were males; some were Western Europeans from diverse origins, some were locals (genetically indistinguishable from present-day Lebanese), and two individuals were a mixture of European and Near Eastern ancestries, providing direct evidence that the Crusaders admixed with the local population. However, these mixtures appear to have had limited genetic consequences since signals of admixture with Europeans are not significant in any Lebanese group today—in particular, Lebanese Christians are today genetically similar to local people who lived during the Roman period which preceded the Crusades by more than four centuries.

https://marlin-prod.literatumonline.com/cms/attachment/2abb791a-5243-47be-a212-c90eeec6dc26/gr3.jpg

https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(19)30111-9?fbclid=IwAR1CM6rNl8kHWwOtbNu2MVJ0ZHtSKo8rByxPUYb m9So5tJz4rEqp-fhUOQM

Mark Polman
18-04-19, 19:09
When I look at those tables, I get confused. I would have put SI 38, SI 42 and SI 45 in "Near Eastern Group". SI 40 and SI 47 in "European Group". And SI 44, SI 39, SI 41 and SI 53 in an "Admixed Group". That would make more sense, wouldn't it?

Angela
18-04-19, 19:44
The component they're using is WHG.

Going on that basis, the only one that might belong in admixed is 44.

There's too much WHG in 39 to be anything but European. Southern Europeans have that much Levant Neo sometimes.

Angela
18-04-19, 19:46
During the medieval period, hundreds of thousands of Europeans migrated to the Near East to take part in the Crusades, and many of them settled in the newly established Christian states along the Eastern Mediterranean coast. Here, we present a genetic snapshot of these events and their aftermath by sequencing the whole genomes of 13 individuals who lived in what is today known as Lebanon between the 3rd and 13th centuries CE. These include nine individuals from the “Crusaders’ pit” in Sidon, a mass burial in South Lebanon identified from the archaeology as the grave of Crusaders killed during a battle in the 13th century CE. We show that all of the Crusaders’ pit individuals were males; some were Western Europeans from diverse origins, some were locals (genetically indistinguishable from present-day Lebanese), and two individuals were a mixture of European and Near Eastern ancestries, providing direct evidence that the Crusaders admixed with the local population. However, these mixtures appear to have had limited genetic consequences since signals of admixture with Europeans are not significant in any Lebanese group today—in particular, Lebanese Christians are today genetically similar to local people who lived during the Roman period which preceded the Crusades by more than four centuries.

https://marlin-prod.literatumonline.com/cms/attachment/2abb791a-5243-47be-a212-c90eeec6dc26/gr3.jpg

https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(19)30111-9?fbclid=IwAR1CM6rNl8kHWwOtbNu2MVJ0ZHtSKo8rByxPUYb m9So5tJz4rEqp-fhUOQM

I'm very interested to read it. Just looking at the Admixture analysis, however, the Modern Near Eastern populations, other than Bedouin B, do seem to have some WHG.

Mark Polman
18-04-19, 20:04
The component they're using is WHG.
Going on that basis, the only one that might belong in admixed is 44.
There's too much WHG in 39 to be anything but European. Southern Europeans have that much Levant Neo sometimes.

Clear about 39, thanks.

markod
18-04-19, 20:39
Why are the unmixed crusaders similar to the Spanish/Basques and Sardinians? I thought 13th century crusaders would be French/English/German. Aquitanians maybe?

https://marlin-prod.literatumonline.com/cms/attachment/46520eff-44cf-44ac-8021-f638e252cbd0/gr1.jpg

Angela
18-04-19, 22:15
Why are the unmixed crusaders similar to the Spanish/Basques and Sardinians? I thought 13th century crusaders would be French/English/German. Aquitanians maybe?

https://marlin-prod.literatumonline.com/cms/attachment/46520eff-44cf-44ac-8021-f638e252cbd0/gr1.jpg

If they're talking about Louis IX's crusader castle in Sidon, yes, it was built by the French king, but he was only there for four years. Plus, the troops they brought to the Holy Land could have been mercenaries. Even if not, the Kingdom of Navarre was allied to the French Crown and their genetics might match.

"His son, King Theobald II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theobald_II_of_Navarre) (1253–70) of Navarre, married Isabella (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_France,_Queen_of_Navarre), daughter of King Louis IX of France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_IX_of_France), and accompanied his saintly father-in-law upon his crusade to Tunis. On the homeward journey, he died at Trapani in Sicily, and was succeeded by his brother, King Henry I (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_I_of_Navarre), who had already assumed the reins of government during his absence, but ruled for only three years (1271–74). His daughter, Queen Joan I (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_I_of_Navarre), ascended as a minor and the country was once again invaded from all sides. The queen and her mother, Blanche of Artois (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanche_of_Artois), sought refuge at the court of King Philip III of France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_III_of_France). His son, the future King Philip IV of France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_IV_of_France), had become engaged to the young sovereign and married her in 1284. From 1276, the time of the negotiations for this marriage, Navarre effectively passed into French control, though not without the French suppression of native resistance in the 1276-1277 War of the Navarreria."



I sincerely doubt there were many Sardinian knights. They were out of European affairs largely since the Roman Age.
https://i2.wp.com/about-history.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/History-of-the-Kingdom-of-Aragon.jpg?fit=974%2C598&ssl=1
These men might also be descended from previous arrivals in the Holy Land who had remained.

As for some Hungarian ancestry:
"The crusade as preached in the thirteenth century was no longer the great enthusiastic movement of 1095, but rather a series of irregular and desultory enterprises. Andrew II, King ofHungary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07547a.htm), and Casimir, Duke of Pomerania (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12225a.htm), set sail from Venice (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15333a.htm) and Spalato (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14207a.htm), while an army of Scandinavians made a tour of Europe (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05607b.htm). The crusaders landed at Saint-Jean d'Acre (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01110b.htm) in 1217, but confined themselves to incursions on Mussulman (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10424a.htm) territory, whereupon Andrew of Hungary returned to Europe (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05607b.htm)."
They didn't stay very long, however. Of those, on balance, who remained, I think the majority of the troops in the Holy Land were brought by the French, although they came from all over. Just look at the First Crusade.

"

Godfrey of Bouillon (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06624b.htm), Duke of Lower Lorraine at the head of the people of Lorraine (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09362a.htm), the Germans (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06484b.htm), and the French (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06166a.htm) from the north, followed the valley of the Danube, crossed Hungary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07547a.htm), and arrived at Constantinople (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04301a.htm), 23 December, 1096.
Hugh of Vermandois, brother of King Philip I of France (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06166a.htm), Robert Courte-Heuse, Duke of Normandy, and Count Stephen of Blois, led bands of French (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06166a.htm) and Normans (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11104a.htm) across the Alps and set sail from the ports of Apulia for Dyrrachium (Durazzo (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05209a.htm)), whence they took the "Via Egnatia" to Constantinople (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04301a.htm) and assembled there in May, 1097.
The French (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06166a.htm) from the south, under the leadership of Raymond of Saint-Gilles (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12669c.htm), Count of Toulouse (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14795b.htm), and of Adhemar of Monteil, Bishop (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm) of Puy and papal legate (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09118a.htm), began to fight their way through the longitudinal valleys of the Eastern Alps and, after bloody conflicts with the Slavonians, reached Constantinople (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04301a.htm) at the end of April, 1097.
Lastly, the Normans of Southern Italy (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08208a.htm), won over by the enthusiasm of the bands of crusaders that passed through their country, embarked for Epirus under the command of Bohemond and Tancred (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14442b.htm), one being the eldest son, the other the nephew, of Robert Guiscard (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07072b.htm). Crossing the Byzantine Empire (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03096a.htm), they succeeded in reaching Constantinople (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04301a.htm), 26 April, 1097."


In the next crusade:
"On 21 January, 1188, Philip Augustus (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12001a.htm), King of France (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06166a.htm), and Henry II, Plantagenet (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07220b.htm), became reconciled at Gisors and took the cross (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04517a.htm). On 27 March, at the Diet of Mainz (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09550a.htm), Frederick Barbarossa (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06252b.htm) and a great number of German knights (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03691a.htm)0, made a vow (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15511a.htm) to defend theChristian (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm) cause in Palestine. In Italy (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08208a.htm), Pisa (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12110a.htm) made peace with Genoa (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06419a.htm), Venice (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15333a.htm) with the King of Hungary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07547a.htm), and William of Sicily with the Byzantine Empire (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03096a.htm). Moreover, a Scandinavian fleet consisting of 12,000 warriors sailed around the shores of Europe (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05607b.htm), when passing Portugal (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12297a.htm), it helped to capture Alvor from the [/COLOR]Mohammedans (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10424a.htm). Enthusiasm for the crusade was again wrought up to a high pitch."

There are also the Knights Templar to consider, although you might think they'd be buried with more ceremony.

"[/COLOR]The Templar Order was divided into regions or "tongues" based on the language of the region. They developed over time but the following list gives a good idea of the Tongues:

[*=left]Provence (ie Occitania, the region of the Languedoc speaking Occitan)
[*=left]Auvergne (speaking a dialect of Occitan)
[*=left]Poitou (including Aquitaine, speaking a dialect of Occitan)
[*=left]France
[*=left]Burgundy
[*=left]Portugal
[*=left]Castile
[*=left]Aragon
[*=left]Valencia
[*=left]Sicily & Apulia
[*=left]Rome
[*=left]Tuscany
[*=left]Lombardy
[*=left]England
[*=left]Germany
[*=left]Hungary
[*=left]Poland
[*=left]Czech Lands
[*=left]Jerusalem
[*=left]Tripoli
[*=left]Antioch
[*=left]Cyprus
[*=left]Lesser Armenia


http://www.medievalwarfare.info/templars.htm

Pygmalion
18-04-19, 22:23
Why are the unmixed crusaders similar to the Spanish/Basques and Sardinians? I thought 13th century crusaders would be French/English/German. Aquitanians maybe?

https://marlin-prod.literatumonline.com/cms/attachment/46520eff-44cf-44ac-8021-f638e252cbd0/gr1.jpg



There were many Catalan and Aragonese Knights Templar, Alfonso I of Aragon left them a third of his kingdom, and there were even a few Sardinian ones and a Sardinian ruler, William I Salusio IV, fought in the third crusade presumably bringing with himself a host of local knights, and Gonnario II of Torres went to the Holy Land during the second crusade.

Angela
19-04-19, 03:46
When I look at those tables, I get confused. I would have put SI 38, SI 42 and SI 45 in "Near Eastern Group". SI 40 and SI 47 in "European Group". And SI 44, SI 39, SI 41 and SI 53 in an "Admixed Group". That would make more sense, wouldn't it?






After reading more of the paper and looking at some of the graphs and admixture charts, I'm joining you in your confusion, but only about 41 and 53. I don't know why they're assuming that they're "admixed".


"We found that a mixturebetween a medieval Lebanese and a Croatian or a medievalLebanese and a Hungarian could reproduce the PCAposition of SI-53, while a mixture between a Saudi and aNorwegian, or a Bedouin and a Northern Spanish, couldreproduce the position of SI-41.

Problem is, this is an older sample, when most of the incoming Europeans were French, German, some Spanish, and Southern Italian/Sicilian, not Croatian or Hungarian.

Plus, COULD reproduce the position of these two on a PCA doesn't mean DID produce the position on a PCA.

The following just sounds like gobbledy-gook to me. How is it relevant?
"However, ourresults (Table S6) show that the Europeans have in general adistinct admixture pattern from the one observed in SI-53;among the populations tested, Ashkenazi Jews’ NearEastern ancestry is mostly related to Near Eastern Jews, Sicilians’ European ancestry is related to Italians, and SouthernItalians have Northern Italians as top sources of their European ancestry."

They don't even have Southern Italians/Sicilians on the admixture chart. Did they compare #53 to them somewhere in the Supplement? Did they compare 41 to some people from Crete, for example, or the Dodecanese, both of whom could have been part of the "Byzantines"?

This is one of the earliest ones, dating to the time of the First Crusade or in between the first and second Crusade, when Sicilians and Southern Italians were also in the Holy Land. After all, 53 does plot near Sicilians. It seems a little early for a lot of admixture to have taken place.

Why didn't they try Armenians in any of these combinations? After all, Baldwin of Boulogne married an Armenian princess, and many other of the Crusader kings as well. I think I read most of the Queens of Jerusalem were either wholly or partly Armenian.

The Near Easterners were probably Eastern Christians. When the Crusaders first arrived they couldn't tell the difference between them and the Muslims and slaughtered them both, but as time went on, they were incorporated.



Fwiw, this is the information for S1 53:
ERS3189343 SI-53 Sidon medieval 1025–1154 266974394 19 4.4 387 male T2 R-CTS300

S1 41
ERS3189352 SI-41 Sidon medieval 1187–1266 169086445 11 3 198 male HV0a R-DF27

For S1 41 maybe that changes everything and does show he's admixed?

I have to go over the statistics tomorrow when I'm "fresh". :)

leperrine
19-04-19, 17:22
I'm a direct male descendant of the crusaders. Specifically Roger de Barnesville. They were Normans. Whom Tasso wrote songs of praise about my guy specially. He was killed in combat. My current working theory with the help of others is that my J2a were originally Alans hired by the Romans and later settled in Southern France. Exactly where my paper trail ends about 1,000 years ago.

I wouldn't be surprised if many of the Crusaders had Sarmations and Alans included. Many would argue that the Chivalry/Knights/Arthur legends actually stemmed from these peoples.

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/53352482_1363344620471808_3990787086348189696_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=473185b3567a3a02b5ebad3faee73434&oe=5D42A30E

There's a man from Latakia Syria with my exact J2a1h2a1 etc... haplogroup. Makes you wonder if my crusader ancestor didn't have children when he was there.

Tomenable
19-04-19, 19:07
Aquitanians maybe?

It is possible that they were Aquitanians or French Basques.

Angela
19-04-19, 21:12
Has anyone found where they explain why modern Middle Easterners, including the Lebanese, have WHG where the Lebanese of the Romano period didn't?

Alyan
19-04-19, 21:59
The paper chalked up the extra Steppe to the Ottomans.

Angela
19-04-19, 22:21
The paper chalked up the extra Steppe to the Ottomans.

I don't see any proof of that versus the Crusaders.

I also stick to my guns that they're wrong about 41, 53 and other things.

This is by "Matt", based on G25, so it might be a bit off, but...

"I'd tentatively agree with Iosif Lazaridis who (I think in a tweet) suggested that these "admixed" samples may be both be within the range of previously existing European populations.
Minimum Euclidean Distances for other samples in the G25 set for the Lebanese Crusader/Medieval "mixed" and "European": https://imgur.com/a/OGANZaD

* SI-41 is very definitely matching with 400-1600 CE Southeast Iberians, and this is not just an artefact of the populations I selected for PCA.

* SI-53 is a pretty close match to Southern Italians, as would be expected from their PCA. (It looks like other people with this genetic composition are just not well represented in the adna panel of largely Roman-Medieval samples I used for the PCA).

* SI-39 and SI-47 are essentially NW European (English, German, Langobard, Viking, Scottish), seem slightly less northern than Norwegians.

* SI-40 is essentially Iberian / Southern French."

Does anyone know where this supposed tweet by Dr. Lazaridis appeared? I'd like to see if he had anything else to say.:disappointed::disappointed: It's not on his twitter account, which I usually check when a new paper comes out.



There's also this:

"SI-41 (1187-1266 CE) "distant from any modern West Eurasian population" as per the authors is in fact a mix between European and NorthWest African and clusters with Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE/Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE/Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE.

Here are his closest G25 populations (scaled) :

SI-41 :
Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE 2.40%
Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE 2.50%
Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE 2.75%
Spanish_Canarias 3.72%


[1] "distance%=2.581 / distance=0.02581" (scaled)

Lebanon_Medieval_Mixed:SI-41

Barcin_N 43.20
Moroccan_North 29.70
Yamnaya_Samara 21.70
WHG 4.65
Yoruba 0.75
Levant_N 0.00
Ganj_Dareh_N 0.00


Global 25 Scaled Neighbour Joing tree (correlation) :

https://i.ibb.co/mTkJJWV/Global25-Scaled-Correlation.jpg (https://ibb.co/mTkJJWV)

As usual, at anthrogenica they're still substituting agendas for analysis.

markod
19-04-19, 22:25
Speaking of WHG, did we ever get an update on those old surveys that reported like 5-25% Y-DNA I all over the Middle East?

Tomenable
20-04-19, 10:21
I've uploaded them to GEDmatch.

GEDmatch Genesis kit numbers of crusaders belonging to European and Admixed groups:

Crusader SI39 - kit number EM9001776
Crusader SI40 - kit number QR8698402
Crusader SI47 - kit number XA2645587
Crusader SI41 - kit number ME3828251
Crusader SI53 - kit number ZX8440629

https://i.imgur.com/vFKaO0l.png

Duarte
20-04-19, 12:20
I've uploaded them to GEDmatch.

GEDmatch Genesis kit numbers of crusaders belonging to European and Admixed groups:

Crusader SI39 - kit number EM9001776
Crusader SI40 - kit number QR8698402
Crusader SI47 - kit number XA2645587
Crusader SI41 - kit number ME3828251
Crusader SI53 - kit number ZX8440629

https://i.imgur.com/vFKaO0l.png

CRUSADER SI-41

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:https://i.imgur.com/DTHhj4J.png

MOESAN
20-04-19, 12:33
I'm a direct male descendant of the crusaders. Specifically Roger de Barnesville. They were Normans. Whom Tasso wrote songs of praise about my guy specially. He was killed in combat. My current working theory with the help of others is that my J2a were originally Alans hired by the Romans and later settled in Southern France. Exactly where my paper trail ends about 1,000 years ago.

I wouldn't be surprised if many of the Crusaders had Sarmations and Alans included. Many would argue that the Chivalry/Knights/Arthur legends actually stemmed from these peoples.

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/53352482_1363344620471808_3990787086348189696_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=473185b3567a3a02b5ebad3faee73434&oe=5D42A30E

There's a man from Latakia Syria with my exact J2a1h2a1 etc... haplogroup. Makes you wonder if my crusader ancestor didn't have children when he was there.

It spite me but I 'm very doubtful that the today distribution of Y-J2 could help to back an Alani trail. And the few ancient Alani we have (for I know) were rather Y-G2(a), even if it can amaze some people.

binx
20-04-19, 12:39
CRUSADER SI-41

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:



CRUSADER SI-41

MDLP K23b Oracle results:https://i.imgur.com/nbuPoY7.png

binx
20-04-19, 13:09
It is possible that they were Aquitanians or French Basques.

The mixed ones? Maybe so but I guess that's because you see it in Gedmatch's oracles but Gedmatch's oracles are not completely accurate.

The first (Crusader SI41) plots between Iberians and Northern Italians, the second (Crusader SI53) plots between Southern Italians and mainland Greeks.


CRUSADER SI-41


MDLP K23b Oracle results:

MDLP K23b Oracle Rev 2014 Sep 16

Kit ME3828251

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
European_Early_Farmers
33.44


2
Caucasian
23.3


3
European_Hunters_Gatherers
13.77


4
North_African
9.38


5
Near_East
7.44


6
South_Central_Asian
3.4


7
East_African
2.77


8
Subsaharian
1.68


9
Ancestral_Altaic
1.51


10
East_Siberian
1.06


11
Austronesian
0.81


12
Archaic_African
0.8


13
Archaic_Human
0.64



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
Portugese ( )
9.82


2
Spanish_Baleares_IBS ( )
10.83


3
French ( )
11.63


4
Italian_Bergamo ( )
12.49


5
Belgian ( )
12.55


6
English_Kent_GBR ( )
12.76


7
South_German ( )
12.78


8
English ( )
12.99


9
Italian_North ( )
13.51


10
Frisian ( )
13.56


11
German-Volga ( )
13.63


12
North_European ( )
13.65


13
English_Cornwall_GBR ( )
13.69


14
Welsh ( )
14.04


15
Spaniard ( )
14.09


16
Irish ( )
14.13


17
CEU ( )
14.39


18
British ( )
14.79


19
Dutch ( )
15.06


20
Spanish_Extremadura_IBS ( )
15.21



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

80.6%
Portugese ( )
+
19.4%
Palestinian ( )
@
2.79


2

72.2%
Portugese ( )
+
27.8%
Moroccan_Jew ( )
@
2.92


3

82%
Portugese ( )
+
18%
Samaritian ( )
@
3.01


4

64.4%
Spanish_Canarias_IBS ( )
+
35.6%
Greek_Peloponnesos ( )
@
3.03


5

81.4%
Portugese ( )
+
18.6%
Lebanese ( )
@
3.06


6

72.8%
Portugese ( )
+
27.2%
Libyan_Jew ( )
@
3.08


7

74.9%
Portugese ( )
+
25.1%
Turk_Jew ( )
@
3.09


8

75.7%
Portugese ( )
+
24.3%
Tunisian_Jew ( )
@
3.1


9

72.5%
Spaniard ( )
+
27.5%
Egyptian_Mansoura ( )
@
3.14


10

84%
Portugese ( )
+
16%
Lebanese_Christian ( )
@
3.15


11

82%
Portugese ( )
+
18%
Lebanese_Muslim ( )
@
3.15


12

72.5%
Spaniard ( )
+
27.5%
Egyptian_Kafar_Sheikh ( )
@
3.16


13

61.2%
Spanish_Galicia_IBS ( )
+
38.8%
Libyan_Jew ( )
@
3.27


14

58.4%
Spanish_Canarias_IBS ( )
+
41.6%
Sicilian_West ( )
@
3.28


15

68.9%
Spanish_Canarias_IBS ( )
+
31.1%
Greek_Phokaia ( )
@
3.3


16

68.9%
Spanish_Cataluna_IBS ( )
+
31.1%
Egyptian_Kafar_Sheikh ( )
@
3.31


17

85.5%
Portugese ( )
+
14.5%
Druze ( )
@
3.32


18

74.4%
Portugese ( )
+
25.6%
Sephardic_Jew ( )
@
3.32


19

84.1%
Portugese ( )
+
15.9%
Lebanese_Druze ( )
@
3.33


20

69%
Spanish_Cataluna_IBS ( )
+
31%
Egyptian_Mansoura ( )
@
3.33



MDLP K16 Modern Oracle results:

MDLP K16 2xOracle and OracleX4

Kit ME3828251

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Neolithic
32.35


2
Caucasian
22.82


3
Steppe
14.22


4
NorthEastEuropean
10.65


5
NorthAfrican
6.45


6
NearEast
5.94


7
EastAfrican
3.63


8
Subsaharian
2.4


9
Indian
1.39


10
Siberian
0.13


11
Arctic
0.02



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
Corsican (Corsica)
7.04


2
Portuguese (Portugal)
7.91


3
Jew (Belmonte)
8.68


4
Italian (NorthIitaly)
8.77


5
Spanish (Baleares)
10


6
Italian (Bergamo)
10


7
Italian (Tuscany)
10.12


8
Provencal (Provence)
10.19


9
Swiss (Switzerland)
10.56


10
Spanish (Extremadura)
10.82


11
Italian (Friul)
11.06


12
Spanish (Spain)
11.15


13
Spanish (Canarias)
11.37


14
Spanish (Murcia)
11.45


15
Spanish (Andalucia)
11.62


16
Spanish (Galicia)
11.84


17
Kosovar (Kosovo)
12.87


18
Spanish (Castilla_y_Leon)
13


19
Italian (Abruzzo)
13


20
Romanian (Gorj)
13.12



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

72.4%
Spanish (Andalucia)
+
27.6%
Egyptian (Egypt)
@
2.43


2

74.5%
Spanish (Andalucia)
+
25.5%
BedouinA (Negev)
@
3.23


3

71.8%
Spanish (Andalucia)
+
28.2%
Arab_Israel (Shefa_Amr)
@
3.25


4

72.6%
Spanish (Andalucia)
+
27.4%
Jordanian (Jordanian)
@
3.38


5

75.9%
Spanish (Baleares)
+
24.1%
Libyan (Libya)
@
3.4


6

74%
Spanish (Andalucia)
+
26%
Palestinian (Israel)
@
3.42


7

72.5%
Spanish (Murcia)
+
27.5%
Samaritan (Israel)
@
3.73


8

61.1%
Spanish (Andalucia)
+
38.9%
Jew (Algeria)
@
3.82


9

69.6%
Spanish (Castilla_y_Leon)
+
30.4%
Samaritan (Israel)
@
3.85


10

79.5%
Jew (Belmonte)
+
20.5%
Basque (France)
@
3.89


11

72.3%
Spanish (Andalucia)
+
27.7%
Samaritan (Israel)
@
3.96


12

64.4%
Spanish (Castilla_la_Mancha)
+
35.6%
Jew (Tunisian)
@
4.01


13

74.2%
Spanish (Andalucia)
+
25.8%
Syrian (Syria)
@
4.01


14

72.4%
Spanish (Andalucia)
+
27.6%
Arab_Israel (Iqrit)
@
4.07


15

69.3%
Spanish (Andalucia)
+
30.7%
Jew (Syria)
@
4.13


16

50.1%
French (SouthFrance)
+
49.9%
Jew (Libya)
@
4.15


17

71.9%
Spanish (Andalucia)
+
28.1%
Lebanese_Muslim (Lebanon)
@
4.16


18

72.4%
Spanish (Murcia)
+
27.6%
Lebanese_Christian (Lebanon)
@
4.22


19

56.7%
French (SouthFrance)
+
43.3%
Egyptian (Mansoura_Cairo)
@
4.25


20

69.5%
Spanish (Castilla_y_Leon)
+
30.5%
Lebanese_Christian (Lebanon)
@
4.32



Gedmatch.Com

EUtest 4-Ancestors Oracle

This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

EUtest Oracle population reference data revised 06 Nov 2012.

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
WEST_MED
23.20


2
ATLANTIC
22.17


3
EAST_MED
18.54


4
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO
12.62


5
MIDDLE_EASTERN
10.18


6
SOUTH_BALTIC
4.35


7
EAST_AFRICAN
3.29


8
EAST_EURO
2.83


9
WEST_AFRICAN
2.54




Finished reading population data. 78 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 PT @ 10.933322
2 North_Italian @ 11.847861
3 ES @ 12.078883
4 Tuscan @ 13.369282
5 FR @ 19.563633
6 South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 20.995182
7 AJ @ 22.030777
8 RO @ 23.914778
9 Serbian @ 24.956110
10 GR @ 25.135830
11 Moroccan @ 25.477522
12 AT @ 25.967180
13 French_Basque @ 26.841650
14 HU @ 28.407112
15 West_&_Central_German @ 28.963449
16 Cornish @ 28.988199
17 NL @ 29.696356
18 Algerian @ 30.153276
19 English @ 30.281355
20 Orcadian @ 32.144806

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% ES +50% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 9.001353


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% ES +25% Moroccan +25% Tuscan @ 5.473464


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Algerian + ES + French_Basque + GR @ 4.874758
2 French_Basque + GR + Moroccan + PT @ 4.910962
3 Algerian + ES + French_Basque + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 4.943409
4 Algerian + French_Basque + Tuscan + Tuscan @ 4.979517
5 ES + French_Basque + GR + Moroccan @ 5.039167
6 Algerian + French_Basque + North_Italian + Tuscan @ 5.048044
7 Algerian + French_Basque + GR + PT @ 5.144810
8 Algerian + French_Basque + PT + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 5.154462
9 French_Basque + Moroccan + PT + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 5.154661
10 French_Basque + Moroccan + Tuscan + Tuscan @ 5.289294
11 ES + French_Basque + Moroccan + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 5.322030
12 Algerian + French_Basque + PT + Tuscan @ 5.362660
13 French_Basque + Moroccan + North_Italian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 5.442145
14 Algerian + ES + French_Basque + Tuscan @ 5.467588
15 ES + ES + Moroccan + Tuscan @ 5.473464
16 Druze + French_Basque + French_Basque + Moroccan @ 5.534194
17 Algerian + ES + ES + Tuscan @ 5.573821
18 ES + ES + Moroccan + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 5.619420
19 French_Basque + PT + PT + Samaritan @ 5.660375
20 French_Basque + Moroccan + South_Italian_&_Sicilian + Tuscan @ 5.665700

Done.

Elapsed time 0.0469 seconds.

Kit Num: ME3828251
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com

Dodecad K12b 4-Ancestors Oracle

This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

The GEDmatch version of Oracle may give slightly different results from Dienekes version. The GEDmatch version uses FST weighting in its calculations.

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Atlantic_Med
37.38


2
Caucasus
18.87


3
North_European
17.90


4
Northwest_African
8.67


5
Southwest_Asian
8.44


6
Gedrosia
3.20


7
Sub_Saharan
2.93


8
East_African
2.24




Finished reading population data. 223 populations found.
12 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 N_Italian_Dodecad @ 12.299514
2 North_Italian_HGDP @ 12.791687
3 TSI30_Metspalu @ 13.413296
4 Canarias_1000Genomes @ 13.765563
5 O_Italian_Dodecad @ 14.104577
6 Tuscan_HGDP @ 15.117364
7 Portuguese_Dodecad @ 15.409299
8 C_Italian_Dodecad @ 15.485755
9 Galicia_1000Genomes @ 15.639492
10 Baleares_1000Genomes @ 15.710630
11 Extremadura_1000Genomes @ 15.761408
12 Murcia_1000Genomes @ 16.315159
13 Castilla_Y_Leon_1000Genomes @ 18.206755
14 Andalucia_1000Genomes @ 18.212278
15 Spanish_Dodecad @ 20.188158
16 Spaniards_Behar @ 20.362900
17 Sicilian_Dodecad @ 21.128773
18 Cataluna_1000Genomes @ 21.392902
19 Castilla_La_Mancha_1000Genomes @ 21.554752
20 S_Italian_Sicilian_Dodecad @ 21.791391

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Canarias_1000Genomes +50% O_Italian_Dodecad @ 6.019690


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Canarias_1000Genomes +25% Morocco_Jews_Behar +25% Romanians_Behar @ 4.220470


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Algerian_Dodecad + Hungarians_Behar + O_Italian_Dodecad + Sardinian_HGDP @ 1.762069
2 Algerian_Dodecad + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + French_Basque_HGDP + Greek_Dodecad @ 2.012456
3 Algerian_Dodecad + French_Basque_HGDP + Greek_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar @ 2.043910
4 Algerian_Dodecad + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + C_Italian_Dodecad + Pais_Vasco_1000Genomes @ 2.074777
5 Algerian_Dodecad + N_Italian_Dodecad + North_Italian_HGDP + North_Italian_HGDP @ 2.082418
6 Algerian_Dodecad + German_Dodecad + Greek_Dodecad + Sardinian_HGDP @ 2.126711
7 Algerian_Dodecad + N_Italian_Dodecad + N_Italian_Dodecad + North_Italian_HGDP @ 2.127675
8 Algerian_Dodecad + Bulgarian_Dodecad + French_Basque_HGDP + Greek_Dodecad @ 2.186950
9 Algerian_Dodecad + Ashkenazy_Jews_Behar + Sardinian_HGDP + Swedish_Dodecad @ 2.306883
10 Algerian_Dodecad + Baleares_1000Genomes + North_Italian_HGDP + O_Italian_Dodecad @ 2.323859
11 Algerian_Dodecad + Bulgarians_Yunusbayev + C_Italian_Dodecad + French_Basque_HGDP @ 2.335352
12 Algerian_Dodecad + Cataluna_1000Genomes + North_Italian_HGDP + O_Italian_Dodecad @ 2.340451
13 Algerian_Dodecad + Galicia_1000Genomes + N_Italian_Dodecad + Tuscan_HGDP @ 2.351126
14 Algerian_Dodecad + Bulgarian_Dodecad + C_Italian_Dodecad + Pais_Vasco_1000Genomes @ 2.354181
15 Algerian_Dodecad + North_Italian_HGDP + O_Italian_Dodecad + Spaniards_Behar @ 2.361815
16 Algerian_Dodecad + North_Italian_HGDP + North_Italian_HGDP + North_Italian_HGDP @ 2.381261
17 Algerian_Dodecad + N_Italian_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad + Spaniards_Behar @ 2.385453
18 Algerian_Dodecad + Cataluna_1000Genomes + N_Italian_Dodecad + Tuscan_HGDP @ 2.391614
19 Algerian_Dodecad + Cantabria_1000Genomes + N_Italian_Dodecad + O_Italian_Dodecad @ 2.400987
20 Algerian_Dodecad + Galicia_1000Genomes + North_Italian_HGDP + O_Italian_Dodecad @ 2.404445

Done.

Elapsed time 0.6607 seconds.




CRUSADER SI-53

MDLP K16 Modern 4-Ancestors Oracle

This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

MDLP K16 2xOracle and OracleX4

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
Caucasian
39.67


2
Neolithic
25.52


3
Steppe
15.97


4
NorthEastEuropean
8.64


5
NearEast
4.58


6
Indian
1.98


7
NorthAfrican
1.49




Finished reading population data. 517 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek_Athens @ 4.631577
2 Greek_Macedonia @ 5.709280
3 Italian_SouthItaly @ 5.931551
4 Italian_Abruzzo @ 6.804487
5 Greek_Greece @ 6.823165
6 Jew_Ashkenazi @ 7.005102
7 Sicilian_Sicily @ 7.078771
8 Greek_Greece @ 7.298038
9 Greek_Peloponnes @ 7.436593
10 Greek_Thessaloniki @ 7.967601
11 Albanian_Albania @ 8.130090
12 Jew_Ashkenazim @ 8.270619
13 Maltese_Malta @ 9.200719
14 Jew_Ashkenazi @ 9.324085
15 Jew_Bulgaria @ 10.017204
16 Kosovar_Kosovo @ 10.598590
17 Jew_Italian @ 11.091384
18 Italian_Tuscany @ 11.283480
19 Gagauz_Gagauzia @ 11.334759
20 Jew_Sephardim @ 11.417408

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Armenian_Armenia +50% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.424870


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Armenian_Armenia +25% French_SouthFrance +25% Italian_Bergamo @ 1.881647


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++
1 Armenian_Armenia + Basque_Spain + Gagauz_Gagauzia + Turk_Trabzon @ 1.326637
2 Basque_France + Druze_Mount_Carmel + Georgian_Tbilisi + Kosovar_Kosovo @ 1.371610
3 Basque_France + Jew_Georgia + Macedonian_Macedonia + Turk_Trabzon @ 1.406635
4 Basque_Spain + Druze_Mount_Carmel + Georgian_Tbilisi + Kosovar_Kosovo @ 1.416601
5 Basque_Spain + Druze_Mount_Carmel + Georgian_Tbilisi + Greek_Thessaloniki @ 1.431449
6 Basque_Spain + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Jew_Georgia + Turk_Trabzon @ 1.437274
7 Basque_France + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Jew_Georgia + Turk_Trabzon @ 1.461933
8 Albanian_Albania + Basque_Spain + Druze_Mount_Carmel + Georgian_Tbilisi @ 1.462805
9 Armenian_Vardnis + Basque_France + Greek_Greece + Turk_Trabzon @ 1.464875
10 Basque_Spain + Jew_Georgia + Macedonian_Macedonia + Turk_Trabzon @ 1.476305
11 Armenian_Vardnis + Basque_France + Gagauz_Gagauzia + Turk_Trabzon @ 1.494691
12 Basque_Spain + Druze_Mount_Carmel + Georgian_Tbilisi + Greek_Greece @ 1.497174
13 Basque_France + Druze_Mount_Carmel + Georgian_Tbilisi + Greek_Thessaloniki @ 1.500947
14 Albanian_Albania + Basque_France + Druze_Mount_Carmel + Georgian_Tbilisi @ 1.504532
15 Cypriot_Cyprus + French_SouthFrance + Georgian_Tbilisi + Kosovar_Kosovo @ 1.508135
16 Armenian_Armenia + French_SouthFrance + Provencal_Provence + Turk_Trabzon @ 1.512021
17 Armenian_Armenia + Basque_Spain + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Turk_Trabzon @ 1.542547
18 Armenian_Armenia + Italian_NorthIitaly + Spanish_Pais_Vasco + Turk_Trabzon @ 1.554368
19 Armenian_Armenia + Basque_France + Gagauz_Gagauzia + Turk_Trabzon @ 1.556014
20 Armenian_Vardnis + Basque_Spain + Greek_Greece + Turk_Trabzon @ 1.565091

Done.

Elapsed time 26.8941 seconds.

MDLP K23b Oracle results:

MDLP K23b Oracle Rev 2014 Sep 16

Kit ZX8440629

Admix Results (sorted):





#





Population
Percent


1
Caucasian
40.53


2
European_Early_Farmers
21.57


3
European_Hunters_Gatherers
12.87


4
Near_East
7.9


5
South_Central_Asian
6.98


6
Ancestral_Altaic
3.19


7
North_African
3.16


8
Arctic
1.75


9
South_Indian
0.94


10
African_Pygmy
0.31


11
East_African
0.28


12
East_Siberian
0.24


13
Archaic_African
0.17


14
Austronesian
0.1



Single Population Sharing:





#





Population (source)
Distance


1
Central_Greek ( )
3.58


2
Greek ( )
4.52


3
Greek_Athens ( )
4.81


4
Greek_Thessaloniki ( )
5


5
Romanian_Jew ( )
5.13


6
Cretan ( )
5.44


7
Greek_Peloponnesos ( )
5.82


8
Albanian_Tirana ( )
5.92


9
Greek_Thessaly ( )
5.93


10
Ashkenazi ( )
6.05


11
Greek_Macedonia ( )
6.34


12
Italian_South ( )
6.38


13
Greek_Phokaia ( )
6.46


14
Greek_Smyrna ( )
6.5


15
Crimean_Tatar_Mountain ( )
7.1


16
Gagauz ( )
7.23


17
Sicilian_Center ( )
7.59


18
Sicilian_East ( )
7.76


19
Ashkenazi_Jew ( )
8.09


20
Sicilian_Siracusa ( )
8.34



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:





#






Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

52.1%
Italian_Abruzzo ( )
+
47.9%
Crimean_Tatar_Coast ( )
@
2.15


2

90.8%
Central_Greek ( )
+
9.2%
Kurd ( )
@
2.3


3

89.7%
Central_Greek ( )
+
10.3%
Kurd_North ( )
@
2.34


4

90.8%
Central_Greek ( )
+
9.2%
Kurd_East ( )
@
2.35


5

90.7%
Central_Greek ( )
+
9.3%
Kurd_South ( )
@
2.38


6

82.1%
Greek_Northwest ( )
+
17.9%
Turk_Trabzon ( )
@
2.41


7

90.2%
Central_Greek ( )
+
9.8%
Azeri ( )
@
2.42


8

91.5%
Central_Greek ( )
+
8.5%
Baku_WGA ( )
@
2.45


9

95.7%
Greek_Athens ( )
+
4.3%
Kalash ( )
@
2.46


10

86.6%
Central_Greek ( )
+
13.4%
Turk_Adana ( )
@
2.46


11

54.7%
Crimean_Tatar_Coast ( )
+
45.3%
Italian_Tuscan ( )
@
2.47


12

92.6%
Greek_Athens ( )
+
7.4%
Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan ( )
@
2.47


13

92.2%
Greek_Athens ( )
+
7.8%
Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan ( )
@
2.48


14

88.3%
Central_Greek ( )
+
11.7%
Iraqi_Chaldean ( )
@
2.48


15

90.2%
Central_Greek ( )
+
9.8%
Uzbekistani_Jew ( )
@
2.5


16

90.1%
Central_Greek ( )
+
9.9%
Iraqi_Mandean ( )
@
2.51


17

91.8%
Central_Greek ( )
+
8.2%
Azeri_Dagestan ( )
@
2.51


18

90.8%
Central_Greek ( )
+
9.2%
Uzbek_Tashkent ( )
@
2.52


19

92.5%
Central_Greek ( )
+
7.5%
Lak ( )
@
2.56


20

88.1%
Central_Greek ( )
+
11.9%
Assyrian_Iraqi ( )
@
2.57

Tomenable
20-04-19, 13:15
The mixed ones? Maybe so but I guess that's because you see it in Gedmatch's oracles

Actually I wrote that before I uploaded them to GEDmatch, so I didn't know their results.

I wrote that based on what other members suggested that they could be from Southern France.

But you are right, the study says they were mixed of European + local Holy Land ancestry.

PS:

They are also already in the Global25 (Eurogenes).

binx
20-04-19, 13:26
They are also already in the Global25 (Eurogenes).


Global25 is undersampled. I don't know how useful it can be with modern-day people.

Mark Polman
20-04-19, 13:43
I'm a direct male descendant of the crusaders. Specifically Roger de Barnesville. They were Normans. Whom Tasso wrote songs of praise about my guy specially. He was killed in combat. My current working theory with the help of others is that my J2a were originally Alans hired by the Romans and later settled in Southern France. Exactly where my paper trail ends about 1,000 years ago.
I wouldn't be surprised if many of the Crusaders had Sarmations and Alans included. Many would argue that the Chivalry/Knights/Arthur legends actually stemmed from these peoples.
There's a man from Latakia Syria with my exact J2a1h2a1 etc... haplogroup. Makes you wonder if my crusader ancestor didn't have children when he was there.

Theoretically speaking, Roger de Barneville might have had Levant ancestry. Did your match and you do research in order to determine whether the Syrian branch was prior or arose during the Crusades, e.g. with BigY on yfull?

brick
20-04-19, 14:13
PCA with Crusader SI39, Crusader SI40, Crusader SI47, Crusader SI41, Crusader SI53 on Eurogenes K15


https://i.imgur.com/8Z6F5J0.jpg

Mark Polman
20-04-19, 14:30
PCA with Crusader SI39, Crusader SI40, Crusader SI47, Crusader SI41, Crusader SI53 on Eurogenes K15

Elucidating, we've five Europeans (2 Germans, Spaniard and 2 Mediterraneans). Let me guess, you are going to show us that the Near Easterners were Christian Armenians? No admixtures?

brick
20-04-19, 14:40
Elucidating, we've five Europeans (2 Germans, Spaniard and 2 Mediterraneans). Let me guess, you are going to show us that the Near Easterners were Christian Armenians? No admixtures?

What are you talking about? Have you at least read the study? It seems not.

kingjohn
20-04-19, 15:17
one of the sidon medieval remains SI-38 was E-L677 } i think it is E-V22
cool :)

Mark Polman
20-04-19, 15:58
What are you talking about? Have you at least read the study? It seems not.

Excuse me for being imprecise in my (supportive) reaction. I read from your analysis that five samples from the pit could be considered as European, although some are put in an admixed group in the paper. I just wondered whether additional observations could be made regarding the samples from the pit which were classified as near eastern.

Angela
20-04-19, 16:13
They seem very close to modern Lebanese, so it might not be very likely. Did anyone run them?

41 is odd. Halfway between the Portuguese and Northern Italians? Did we really get a stray Corsican? Or maybe the other analysis is correct, and he was southeastern Iberian, maybe Baleares?

I still don't see an actual explanation that works for why the WHG in modern Levantines is from the Ottomans.

I'm not very impressed, I must say.

In one way, some of the reactions are pretty funny. Of course number 53 is southern Italian; after all, he's half Levantine! Except, he was probably Greek. :)

t50
20-05-19, 02:52
I'm kind of late to the discussion. Did the researchers provide informtation on the SNPs, so that the terminal SNPs could be discovered on any of these individuals? In particular, I was wondering if anyone knew how to figure out the terminal SNP of the DF27 individual, thought to be from Iberia.

Gilchrist
15-11-19, 02:31
Hello, I became interested in SI-41 since he was listed as 97% sample match with a genetic distance of 15.396 and is listed as DF-27. I am DF-27 (which could be the only thing connecting us) but come from Scottish ancestry, so I'm not so sure why he is listed as Iberian. I Gedmatch in Eurogenes 13 as Northern Italian with a single population sharing. Mixed mode is Italian Abruzzo (my mother) and Orcadian ('Scottish' my father). Just saying that DF27 is not strictly Iberian by the thirteenth century. You are all light years ahead of me with this, but just suggesting.

Carlos
15-11-19, 05:15
one of the sidon medieval remains SI-38 was E-L677 } i think it is E-V22
cool :)

Do you have more data? It is a crusader, does not appear on the graph?

Carlos
15-11-19, 05:23
Hello, I became interested in SI-41 since he was listed as 97% sample match with a genetic distance of 15.396 and is listed as DF-27. I am DF-27 (which could be the only thing connecting us) but come from Scottish ancestry, so I'm not so sure why he is listed as Iberian. I Gedmatch in Eurogenes 13 as Northern Italian with a single population sharing. Mixed mode is Italian Abruzzo (my mother) and Orcadian ('Scottish' my father). Just saying that DF27 is not strictly Iberian by the thirteenth century. You are all light years ahead of me with this, but just suggesting.

Hello, I have correspondence with this crusader.

35. Crusader Knight French / Lebanon (1250 AD) ..... 14.61 - SI-40
Top 98%

mtDNA: U5a1g
Y-DNA: R-P311

Modern Group
1. Southwest_French (9.072)
2. Spanish_Aragon (10.55)
3. Spanish_Valencia (11.45)
4. Spanish_Cantabria (11.72)
5. Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha (12.31)
6. Spanish_Andalucia (12.80)
7. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon (12.92)
8. French_Basque (13.15)

Similar Samples
Boscombe Bowmen Amesbury (2300 BC) (9.112)
Iron Age Catalan (620 BC) (10.9)
Roman-Carthago Mix Iberia (80 AD) (10.92)
Vascones Tribe Vasconia (280 BC) (11.31)
Ilergetes Tribe Catalan (200 BC) (11.86)

This would be the Iberian crusader as you say. You can see yours Si40 located to the right, look at the graph.

aci
06-12-19, 17:36
Anyone know of any recent books on the economy of the Medieval Era, Middle Ages, whatever you want to call it. Ive read everything by Miskimin and Spufford, but I was wondering if there was anything more recent, as in not from the 60s.
Not. But you will write its!
Is your transistor spinning?

torzio
06-12-19, 20:16
do we have anything more on this crusader

Sidon Crusader ( 700 yBP - Medieval )


SI-42
Y-DNA: T1a-M70 (xCTS10577, CTS8051, FGC1272, FGC1249, CTS11626, CTS7001, CTS382, FGC1180, PF5521, CTS5499, CTS1599, FGC1517, CTS4435, FGC1200, PF5663, CTS11431, FGC1286, FGC1292, FGC1264, CTS9703, FGC1290, CTS4831, PF7460, CTS10618, PF5571, CTS12114, CTS9717, FGC1291) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-M70/)
mtDNA: J1b1a1

All I have is that he was a Lars/Persian person.............but that could be an error

matadworf
04-04-20, 15:31
SI 53 does seem to have high West Asian and low Red Sea so if we're ruling out a Southern Italian or Greek then could we be looking at someone of mixed Euro/Caucasus heritage rather than Lebanese.

Jovialis
20-10-20, 23:50
I think SI-53 is in fact a Southern Italian, he can be modeled very well with the C6 Mediterranean cluster from Antonio M et al. 2019. Even Isolf Lazaridis agrees that SI-53 falls into the modern and ancient European source population continuum.

I have a very close affinity to SI-53.

SI-41, is indeed an admixed individual, however.

https://i.imgur.com/ngMs9sP.png

https://i.imgur.com/rqUZ928.png

Furthermore, according to the admixture chart in the study, SI-53 has far too little Levant_N to be a mix between Hungarians, and Lebanese, IMO.

Jovialis
21-10-20, 00:14
I think SI-53 is in fact a Southern Italian, he can be modeled very well with the C6 Mediterranean cluster from Antonio M et al. 2019. Even Isolf Lazaridis agrees that SI-53 falls into the modern and ancient European source population continuum.

I have a very close affinity to SI-53.

SI-41, is indeed an admixed individual, however.

https://i.imgur.com/ngMs9sP.png

https://i.imgur.com/rqUZ928.png

Furthermore, according to the admixture chart in the study, SI-53 has far too little Levant_N to be a mix between Hungarians, and Lebanese, IMO.

SI-53's top matches are with Mediterranean-stock Romans, C6:

https://i.imgur.com/G664QgT.png

https://i.imgur.com/o1xvgxG.png

lacreme
21-10-20, 19:15
My Greek friend that I have posted before, a mix of islander+mainlander.He seems to be quite close to SI-53

G25



Distance to:
Chris_scaled


0.02345751
IND_Roopkund_B:I3404


0.02776688
Levant_LBN_MA_o4:SI-53


0.02853196
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR136


0.03053033
ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR49


0.03074305
ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR969


0.03080654
ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR64


0.03081268
ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR835


0.03084855
ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR57


0.03094529
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR117


0.03138511
ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR973


0.03144237
IND_Roopkund_B:I2869


0.03161758
VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA:VK534


0.03183653
ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR56


0.03185663
ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR54


0.03227941
VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA:VK537


0.03248507
ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1290


0.03294157
IND_Roopkund_B:I3405


0.03319056
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36


0.03319961
ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65


0.03424201
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR35


0.03424486
IND_Roopkund_B:I6936


0.03425950
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR121


0.03501539
ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR970


0.03511035
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR137


0.03540495
ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR131



Dodecad K12b


Distance to:
Chris


4.28588381
CrusaderKnightApuliaAbruzzoLebanonCrusaderSI53


4.63219171
R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.05022772
R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


5.34406213
R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.56840193
R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.62346868
R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina


5.64285389
R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis


5.82512661
R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese


6.12218915
R64_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


6.14947152
R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


6.29856333
R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


6.30786018
R836_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marche


6.48573049
R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro


6.92205172
R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


6.97249597
Collegno110


6.99639907
R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


7.29782844
R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


7.37931569
R114_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


7.43180328
R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


7.45076506
R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


7.91697543
R69_Imperial_Era_ANAS


8.10577572
R969_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


8.11352574
R970_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


8.19114766
R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio


8.21347673
R32_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto




Target: Chris
Distance: 1.0722% / 1.07218643 | ADC: 0.25x


59.4
CrusaderKnightApuliaAbruzzoLebanonCrusaderSI53





25.8
R69_Imperial_Era_ANAS





5.8
R32_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto





4.6
RISE397_Kapan_Armenia_2807_years





3.0
RISE412_Noratus_Armenia_2885_years





1.4
Szolad20



Dodecad K7 ancient




Distance to:
Chris


2.78598277
C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche


2.79025088
C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cian ti


3.07597139
C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna


3.23270784
C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna


3.61160629
C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropoli s


3.83717344
C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R64_Villa_Magna


4.77189690
C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R47_Centocelle_Necropoli s


4.92893498
C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R1544_Necropolis_of_Mont e_Agnese


4.97361036
C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R436_Palestrina


5.05517557
C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R65_Villa_Magna


5.20894423
C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia


5.55439466
C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna


5.61166642
C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R58_Villa_Magna


5.73081146
Foggia_MA:VK534


5.77836482
C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necro polis


5.84485244
C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia


5.93225927
C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro


6.02205945
C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R121_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia


6.08287761
C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R32_Mausol e_di_Augusto


6.09573621
C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R60_Villa_Magna


6.12742197
C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna


6.16151767
C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R69_ANAS


6.23693033
C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche


6.24185069
C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna


6.35823089
C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R53_Villa_Magna




Target: Chris
Distance: 0.7319% / 0.73190085 | ADC: 0.25x


69.2
C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche





16.8
C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna





13.4
Armenia_ChL:I1631





0.6
Yamnaya:I0441_Kurmanaevka_III_Buzuluk_Samara

kingjohn
21-10-20, 19:36
SI53 in eurogenes k13
he cluster with italian abruzzo
i agree very likely he was somekind of central italian
( yes as mention above by matadworf (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/54059-matadworf) his red sea % is very low and he do have some caucasus tendency ):thinking:


Kit ZX8440629

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
East_Med
27.77


2
North_Atlantic
20.57


3
West_Asian
19.69


4
West_Med
17.03


5
Baltic
9.63


6
Red_Sea
2.54


7
South_Asian
2.24


8
Oceanian
0.53



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
Italian_Abruzzo
6.02


2
Central_Greek
7.11


3
East_Sicilian
8.55


4
South_Italian
9.27


5
West_Sicilian
9.93


6
Greek_Thessaly
9.98


7
Ashkenazi
11.73


8
Tuscan
13.08


9
Sephardic_Jewish
14.39


10
Italian_Jewish
15.37


11
Bulgarian
16.04


12
Algerian_Jewish
16.37


13
Turkish
17.37


14
Romanian
17.59


15
North_Italian
18.21


16
Tunisian_Jewish
18.47


17
Cyprian
19.23


18
Libyan_Jewish
19.25


19
Lebanese_Muslim
20.81


20
Serbian
21.66



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

85.5%
Italian_Abruzzo
+
14.5%
Lezgin
@
2.93


2

85.9%
Italian_Abruzzo
+
14.1%
Tabassaran
@
3.09


3

83.3%
Italian_Abruzzo
+
16.7%
Kumyk
@
3.17

Salento
26-10-20, 05:46
... top 10 dod K12 Ancient - Apulia
(... Salento_me + Abruzzo on Source)
... notice SI-53Crusader:

https://i.imgur.com/BK0FCTb.jpg

Jovialis
26-10-20, 11:20
SI53 in eurogenes k13
he cluster with italian abruzzo
i agree very likely he was somekind of central italian
( yes as mention above by matadworf (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/54059-matadworf) his red sea % is very low and he do have some caucasus tendency ):thinking:


Kit ZX8440629

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
East_Med
27.77


2
North_Atlantic
20.57


3
West_Asian
19.69


4
West_Med
17.03


5
Baltic
9.63


6
Red_Sea
2.54


7
South_Asian
2.24


8
Oceanian
0.53



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
Italian_Abruzzo
6.02


2
Central_Greek
7.11


3
East_Sicilian
8.55


4
South_Italian
9.27


5
West_Sicilian
9.93


6
Greek_Thessaly
9.98


7
Ashkenazi
11.73


8
Tuscan
13.08


9
Sephardic_Jewish
14.39


10
Italian_Jewish
15.37


11
Bulgarian
16.04


12
Algerian_Jewish
16.37


13
Turkish
17.37


14
Romanian
17.59


15
North_Italian
18.21


16
Tunisian_Jewish
18.47


17
Cyprian
19.23


18
Libyan_Jewish
19.25


19
Lebanese_Muslim
20.81


20
Serbian
21.66



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

85.5%
Italian_Abruzzo
+
14.5%
Lezgin
@
2.93


2

85.9%
Italian_Abruzzo
+
14.1%
Tabassaran
@
3.09


3

83.3%
Italian_Abruzzo
+
16.7%
Kumyk
@
3.17




That's probably just an artifact of using K13, I haven't seen anything striking like that for it in the Dodecad calculators that would suggest that. He looks like a normal Southern Italian sample to me. In the 3D PCA it's X,Y,&Z axis all fall in line perfectly for it. Moreover, SI-53 is indeed very close to Abruzzo. Also, since it will not perfectly fit the sample choosing Abruzzo, the algorithm will arbitrarily pick something like that to try to get the closest possible fit, however, we need to use our discretion to consider if it is a likely scenario. IMO, he was a southern Italian that went off to the Crusades, his paternal and maternal lineages can be found in Europe.

Angela
26-10-20, 15:29
That's probably just an artifact of using K13, I haven't seen anything striking like that for it in the Dodecad calculators that would suggest that. He looks like a normal Southern Italian sample to me. In the 3D PCA it's X,Y,&Z axis all fall in line perfectly for it. Moreover, SI-53 is indeed very close to Abruzzo. Also, since it will not perfectly fit the sample choosing Abruzzo, the algorithm will arbitrarily pick something like that to try to get the closest possible fit, however, we need to use our discretion to consider if it is a likely scenario. IMO, he was a southern Italian that went off to the Crusades, his paternal and maternal lineages can be found in Europe.

Eurogenes' modern calculators are "off", by his own admission. I don't think his ancient ones are all that great either. That's what happens when you cherry pick sources to get the results you want; you don't get consistency.

That's why Dodecad, even though it's older, is so much more consistent.

Pax Augusta
26-10-20, 15:40
SI53 in eurogenes k13
he cluster with italian abruzzo
i agree very likely he was somekind of central italian
( yes as mention above by matadworf (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/54059-matadworf) his red sea % is very low and he do have some caucasus tendency ):thinking:


Kit ZX8440629

Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
East_Med
27.77


2
North_Atlantic
20.57


3
West_Asian
19.69


4
West_Med
17.03


5
Baltic
9.63


6
Red_Sea
2.54


7
South_Asian
2.24


8
Oceanian
0.53



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
Italian_Abruzzo
6.02


2
Central_Greek
7.11


3
East_Sicilian
8.55


4
South_Italian
9.27


5
West_Sicilian
9.93


6
Greek_Thessaly
9.98


7
Ashkenazi
11.73


8
Tuscan
13.08


9
Sephardic_Jewish
14.39


10
Italian_Jewish
15.37


11
Bulgarian
16.04


12
Algerian_Jewish
16.37


13
Turkish
17.37


14
Romanian
17.59


15
North_Italian
18.21


16
Tunisian_Jewish
18.47


17
Cyprian
19.23


18
Libyan_Jewish
19.25


19
Lebanese_Muslim
20.81


20
Serbian
21.66



Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



#

Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

85.5%
Italian_Abruzzo
+
14.5%
Lezgin
@
2.93


2

85.9%
Italian_Abruzzo
+
14.1%
Tabassaran
@
3.09


3

83.3%
Italian_Abruzzo
+
16.7%
Kumyk
@
3.17





Abruzzesi are southern Italian, not central Italian. Distance is 6, not a best fit, it should be seen in a PCA.




85.5%
Italian_Abruzzo
+
14.5%
Lezgin





Eurogenes' modern calculators are "off", by his own admission. I don't think his ancient ones are all that great either. That's what happens when you cherry pick sources to get the results you want; you don't get consistency.

That's why Dodecad, even though it's older, is so much more consistent.


All Eurogenes tools, including the G25, have huge flaws. But Dodecad has a lot of problems as well.