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Aspurg
01-05-19, 04:06
It's becoming quite clear to me that due to the age, spread, diversity of Z5018 and archaeological evidence Vatin culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatin_culture) very likely has a connection to Z5018. Of course that almost certainly applies to some other related (E/NE) cultures as well.
Vatin culture is very convenient because other than this being a proto-(Daco) Moesian culture, the Western variant of Vatin culture is considered to have taken part in formation of Illyrians (though originally it was very distinct from some other proto-Illyrian elements such as the likely J-L283 dominated Dinara culture)..

So Western variety of Z5018 is very convenient for some more Western Balkan clades of Z5018 that do not have Central/Eastern Balkan connection (like so many do) such as E-Y145455 in W/N Kosovo Albanians, and E-Y145455>BY6375 found in Southern Albanians who share BY6375 with Swedish YF05464. Western Balkans has high diversity of E-Y145455. There are also some very good other indications for this connection but I won't elaborate on that much right now. E-L241 might have a connection here but it is alot more complicated as is talking about some other clades.

The TMRCA of Z5018 is 3600 ybp and this TMRCA also generally fits very well with Vatin and some other related cultures.

Vatin is very convenient also insofar as the origin of CTS1273 is concerned. Regardless from where the E-CTS1273 may come from, for Z5018 in all viable scenarios it does not impede a Vatin connection.:smile:

As far as Ancient DNA is concerned that will be difficult, because cremation dominated in Vatin culture. A good fit might be the Western variant of Vatin where inhumation was far more common (as it was usually for Illyrian groups), in their older burials cremation too was bit more widespread.

In any case I don't think anyone ever made this sort of prediction/connection but I do it now.:grin:

ELIOV13
04-05-19, 16:21
It seems to me that the theories of Gimbutas are once again valid and, all the descendants of V13, who probably had a homeland on the middle Danube, dispersed with the Indo-European invasions / migrations
https://i.ibb.co/8dCB27J/gim.jpg (https://ibb.co/Gt6Jk5X)

digital_noise
09-05-19, 19:05
Eliov13, do you know your terminal subclade?

ELIOV13
11-05-19, 20:56
yes,y16729

Aspurg
21-08-19, 01:48
Albanians now have a 3rd cluster of E-Y145455, also from Southern Albania, that fits into Western Vatin remnants being pushed way to the South at the time of Bronze Age collapse as stated by some archaeologists. But also at FTDNA under Y145455 now we see a significant diversity under Y145455>Z17293:
E-Y145455>Z17293>BY183689 Irish, Central Bulgaria
E-Y145455>Z17293>BY6238 Ukrainian from Carpathians, NE Romanian

Additionally there is another NW Bulgarian Z17293+ with only 12 STR's but he is 4/12 to both clades so not close to either further indicating ​Z17293's more Eastern affiliation.

The TMRCA of the two clades is still around 3700 ybp, so generally Y145455 remains as one of older Z5018 clades with significant dispersion in MBA. While Western clades might fit into Western Vatin, these Easterners would fit into some Eastern relatives of Vatin culture as they are still 3700 ybp apart despite both being Y145455+. So these news finds do seem to support my thesis here. And logically already Z5018 is very dispersive in MBA/LBA and has to be involved with major Balkan cultures. Interestingly one of these Vatin cousins where I suspect some Z5018 involvement is considered by some to be proto-Dorian.. And there might exist interesting genetic facts to back that up.:smile:

Albanian E-Y6375 is predicted I see based on a very close match with one Greek BY6375+ from Santorini, usually such close matches with Albanians/Vlachs end up being Arvanite/Vlach though Santorini is a bit exotic for those (as is Smyrna though).

Johane Derite
21-08-19, 13:47
Albanians now have a 3rd cluster of E-Y145455, also from Southern Albania, that fits into Western Vatin remnants being pushed way to the South at the time of Bronze Age collapse as stated by some archaeologists. But also at FTDNA under Y145455 now we see a significant diversity under Y145455>Z17293:
E-Y145455>Z17293>BY183689 Irish, Central Bulgaria
E-Y145455>Z17293>BY6238 Ukrainian from Carpathians, NE Romanian

Additionally there is another NW Bulgarian Z17293+ with only 12 STR's but he is 4/12 to both clades so not close to either further indicating ​Z17293's more Eastern affiliation.

The TMRCA of the two clades is still around 3700 ybp, so generally Y145455 remains as one of older Z5018 clades with significant dispersion in MBA. While Western clades might fit into Western Vatin, these Easterners would fit into some Eastern relatives of Vatin culture as they are still 3700 ybp apart despite both being Y145455+. So these news finds do seem to support my thesis here. And logically already Z5018 is very dispersive in MBA/LBA and has to be involved with major Balkan cultures. Interestingly one of these Vatin cousins where I suspect some Z5018 involvement is considered by some to be proto-Dorian.. And there might exist interesting genetic facts to back that up.:smile:

Albanian E-Y6375 is predicted I see based on a very close match with one Greek BY6375+ from Santorini, usually such close matches with Albanians/Vlachs end up being Arvanite/Vlach though Santorini is a bit exotic for those (as is Smyrna though).

Smyrna has a quite large Albanian population that are mostly assimilated today as turks. A big chunk of them are refugees from the Nish sanxhak from 1877-1878.

Can you recommend me some good works on the Vatin culture?

Aspurg
21-08-19, 18:20
Smyrna has a quite large Albanian population that are mostly assimilated today as turks. A big chunk of them are refugees from the Nish sanxhak from 1877-1878.

I was referring to the study of Smyrna Greeks where various typical Albanian clades were found: R-Z2705, E-Y92017, E-Y173822.



Can you recommend me some good works on the Vatin culture?

Well much of it is in Serbian because usually archaeologists deal with cultures from their countries. But some papers in English:
https://www.academia.edu/2250330/WELL_DEFINED_OR_TAKEN_FOR_GRANTED_-_THE_BRONZE_AGE_VATIN_CULTURE_A_CENTURY_AFTER
http://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576%200x002debf3.pdf (some successors)
https://www.academia.edu/8203728/THE_BEGINNING_OF_THE_LATE_BRONZE_AGE_IN_SOUTHERN_B ANAT_AND_THE_END_OF_THE_VATIN_CULTURE_CASE_STUDY_O F_%C5%BDIDOVAR

Johane Derite
21-08-19, 18:35
I was referring to the study of Smyrna Greeks where various typical Albanian clades were found: R-Z2705, E-Y92017, E-Y173822.



Well much of it is in Serbian because usually archaeologists deal with cultures from their countries. But some papers in English:
https://www.academia.edu/2250330/WELL_DEFINED_OR_TAKEN_FOR_GRANTED_-_THE_BRONZE_AGE_VATIN_CULTURE_A_CENTURY_AFTER
http://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576%200x002debf3.pdf (some successors)
https://www.academia.edu/8203728/THE_BEGINNING_OF_THE_LATE_BRONZE_AGE_IN_SOUTHERN_B ANAT_AND_THE_END_OF_THE_VATIN_CULTURE_CASE_STUDY_O F_%C5%BDIDOVAR

Ah right, didn't know about that study. Thanks for the papers, I will make sure to learn more about vatin.

HarryRussell
28-09-19, 22:04
cool topic and forum