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paul333
03-05-19, 21:57
Is there any news regarding the archaeological investigation of this Battlefield, 1300-1200BC, regarding Isotope and Y DNA results. I understand there were many male victims, remains found.

The reason I ask, is that in using a new tool a SNP Tracker, it indicates that there were possibly subclades of 'Y H2' DNA, (Y21630 +2), showing very near to the area of the Tollense site, in modern Northern Germany during the Bronze age, and that they had arrived from, and were ancestral to Neolithic Sweden since at least around 3,500-3000 BC.

Did they use an old Amber trade path/route into Sweden,and then back to North Germany and beyond, thousands of years ago, I'm sure Isotope and DNA analysis would help, but I cannot find much about it.

Descendants of these Y H2 Bronze age people are later located in the UK, one referenced during the Roman period and another during the medieval periods. The path they took is showing from the same area of Northern Germany,and very close to the Tollense Battle site, during the Bronze age and later.

The Roman period entry,( SNP- FGC31857 ), appears to have entered Britain as a possible Later Germanic mercanary or feoderati. The other medieval ( SNP-BY37188 ) possibly a descendant or invader during the migration period or later, both show a Path of ancestry from a location in Sweden, during the Neolithic period.

The medieval is dated 1,500 years before the present meaning,he possibly lived around AD 500 the period of late fifth, and early sixth century, the very time of 'Beowulf ', and during the early Anglo Saxon migrations from the continent, He may even be linked to the Anglo-Saxon, Sutton Hoo, people,he certainly has the right ancestor path.

Is there any papers, or information publicly available, or scheduled to be released soon ?. The Tollense Valley site, should be producing a large amount of information by now, as its been known from 1997, and excavated from 2007 onwards, yet very little public information is available.??

bicicleur
04-05-19, 09:08
and what is this SNP tracker?

paul333
04-05-19, 12:55
It is the one created by Robert Spencer, scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html or just type SNP Tracker into google.

spruithean
05-05-19, 05:39
Please don't take the info on those SNP trackers as gospel, they are just estimations which find the average location from all samples combined basically.

markod
05-05-19, 07:19
No haploid data yet, but there was supposed to be significant autosomal diversity. Whoever those people were (Urnfielders presumably), it looks like they fell victim to Gothic- and Balto-Slavic invasions.

bicicleur
05-05-19, 11:08
No haploid data yet, but there was supposed to be significant autosomal diversity. Whoever those people were (Urnfielders presumably), it looks like they fell victim to Gothic- and Balto-Slavic invasions.

wasn't it the other way around?
many of the warriors who died on the battlefield came from the south, according to isotope analasis

paul333
05-05-19, 13:30
wasn't it the other way around?
many of the warriors who died on the battlefield came from the south, according to isotope analasis

Not a lot of information is available, all that is certain is that it seems to of been a large scale organised Battle, possibly between two cultures, wether they were preventing/defending a movement North or South may never be known.

The only known facts we have, is it occurred around 1,200BC, and 1300BC, and that weapons used reflect, up to, and, from that period.

There were large movements from the North, from this time onwards, through to the Iron age,which would also ultimately result in the later of these periods being classed as the Germanic age, which then began to be documented, and written about from the Roman period onwards.

There were known movements out from Scandinavia during this period, from North to South, the culture archaeologies reflect this, supported now by new DNA tools.

The Isotope indicating a presence from the South, may of been from a force to prevent this, and may reflect, a possibility that the majority of the victims are from those who lost the battle.

The victors would I'm sure treat their dead, with some respect, and likely not leave their bodies remaining on the battle field to be scavanged etc, the Isotope analysis, may be reflecting this.

paul333
05-05-19, 13:41
Please don't take the info on those SNP trackers as gospel, they are just estimations which find the average location from all samples combined basically.

The information I used has been tested and confirmed as subclades, by a number of proven DNA specialist/experts, they are fact, not estimated.

The SNP Tracker tool is only a method, and means to understand the information. It is an ongoing, and new development. Which is what it says a Track/Path that is helping understand, and interpret the movements of these lower subclades. Its new and can only improve.

markod
05-05-19, 13:44
wasn't it the other way around?
many of the warriors who died on the battlefield came from the south, according to isotope analasis


Not sue, lots of diversity there. But they were quite different from the East Germanics apparently. They could have disappeared before they arrived I suppose.

matty74
05-05-19, 21:00
Not sue, lots of diversity there. But they were quite different from the East Germanics apparently. They could have disappeared before they arrived I suppose.

People were more mobile and connected over long trade routes than previously thought?

bicicleur
06-05-19, 10:14
Not sue, lots of diversity there. But they were quite different from the East Germanics apparently. They could have disappeared before they arrived I suppose.

those southerners were warriors, not traders
they had no bussiness up there, unless there goal was conquest
furthermore, Urnfield was expanding to the north at that time
but it seems, they were not that succesfull in the Baltic in the end

berun
06-05-19, 20:23
weapons could be linked to a given culture or they just fought with bare fists?

spruithean
03-06-19, 03:12
Any news on the Tollense Y-DNA front? It's been a really long time.