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Yetos
12-05-19, 15:17
Because last week a lot are heard about Seima Turbino,
and their connection with IE in the other side of map, like Myceneans, which apparently show almost zero Altaic component,
and maybe the lowest Steppe admixture,

I would like to post and discuss about their geneticks and evidences,
so to stop polute other threads, with 'out of thread' posting

many people believe that Seima Turbino was R1a, relative of -Z93,
yet many searchers believe they were N3a -B211

I am hosting a part of work, claiming no rights,
and a link

link
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bbib49

hosting a part, (no rights I own)

<< Another pattern involves the similarity in the range of hg N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya.51 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bib51) Extending across northern Eurasia from Mongolia to the Baltic region, this phenomenon encompasses the cultures of nomadic forest and steppe societies with advanced metal-working technology.51 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bib51) Taken together, these facts hint at the Seima-Turbino metalsmith-traders as the probable primary carriers of hg N3a3’6 lineages. >>

<< N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have been brought to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups, but earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either, given that a study of ancient DNA52 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bib52) revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. >>

blevins13
12-05-19, 17:29
Because last week a lot are heard about Seima Turbino,
and their connection with IE in the other side of map, like Myceneans, which apparently show almost zero Altaic component,
and maybe the lowest Steppe admixture,

I would to post and discuss their geneticks and evidences,
so stop to stop polute other threads, with 'out of thread' posting

many people believe that Seima Turbino was R1a, relative of -Z93,
yet many searchers believe they were N3a -B211

I am hosting a part of work, claiming no rights,
and a link

link
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bbib49

hosting a part, (no rights I own)

<< Another pattern involves the similarity in the range of hg N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya.51 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bib51) Extending across northern Eurasia from Mongolia to the Baltic region, this phenomenon encompasses the cultures of nomadic forest and steppe societies with advanced metal-working technology.51 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bib51) Taken together, these facts hint at the Seima-Turbino metalsmith-traders as the probable primary carriers of hg N3a3’6 lineages. >>

<< N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have been brought to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups, but earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either, given that a study of ancient DNA52 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bib52) revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. >>



I do not know why you hear for it last week since it has been in Eupedia Genetics for many years.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

But it is a good thing that you opened a separate thread for it, so we can shed more light into it.


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johen
12-05-19, 17:59
I think it will be good for some PHD candidate to research seima turbino, which is totally ignored by scholars negligently or intentionally, b/c phd papers should be a theory, not encyclopedia of knowledge.

So far, SM Elunio culture has one Q1a, where caucasoid skulls were found recently, being different from okunevo. As far as I know, I don't know where their culture ends. When it moves westward, no human bones were found. The culture covers south east asia, bronze china, balkan, mayby copper hoard of India, and finally
iberia & british isle at late bronze age.

In shimao step pyramid in china, the Elunio artifacts were found. (shimao and seima, same word origin?)
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33257-upside-down-pyramids (post 9)

Anthony and Eupedia mentioned that some SM artifacts have a striking similarity with mycenaean's.
The most important thing is they have two snake culture, which okunevo and mesomarica culture have, but the other steppe culture don't have. The snake culture is core part of Hidu, which means sunlight, creation to generate and regenerate life and fire cult. The snake is replaced by thunderbolt of Indra and zeus.
It means that andronovo culture would not related with Aryans, even if they were all same people. So many scholars think copper hoard culure belongs to IVC, but I think it is related with SM, connecting to R1a and M73 in India. Therefore, I think circle b and copper hoard people would have east asian admixture.

Actually Mycenaean, Hindu and china bronze culture have so similar artifacts and philosophy, hence, I think they would be same people from altai:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16669-ZEUS-and-altai-petroglyph&

https://www.classics.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/styles/mt_image_medium/public/classics/images/media/collective-ritual-image.jpg?itok=5ROD-EQV

https://www.chinadailyhk.com/attachments/image/152/106/230/413033_122994/413033_122994_800_auto_jpg.jpg
https://www.chinadailyhk.com/articles/58/242/16/1537761232134.html

Aryan sikha:
https://prashantmudgal.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/sikha_thumb_large.jpg
https://prashantmudgal.wordpress.com/2015/11/09/hair-american-indians-buddhist-monks/

Yetos
12-05-19, 19:36
@ johen

the serpent sky exist in Hettites too
the Illuyanka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuyanka
But they appear to be R1b if not wrong

Yet the slain of sky serpent exist even today only the serpent is in Earth.
https://saintgeorgecathedral.net/images/saintgeorge-new.jpg


But Mycaenae and Greek world religious seem to be closer to Hurrian and Urartu ones,
The castrate of Supreme God, the human like, thunder holding God, etc, the human like sun.

MOESAN
12-05-19, 19:42
Seyma-:Turbino culture is an interesting phenomenon; the metals findings are they connected to an unique ethny? Good question...
Grigoryev, whose I don't share every conclusion BTW, considers that the S-T metallurgy has its prototypes in Near-Eastern cultures (the womb of everything), and think that this culture in its expansion mixed with a lot other cultures, to form new ones among whom emerged the Celts, before the emergence of Germanics, Balts and Slavs a bit latter, all of them arrived in Europe relatively late, so. Old theories considered rather the S-T culture was almost exclusively the motor or launcher of future Uralic expansions.
I avow I've not clue to date to prove or disprove an ancient or recent presence of Uralic speakers in N-E Europe or the links of Uralic dialects with Y-N1.
It's possible this brutal expansion of S-M was the fact of peri-Altay tribes very mobile, after they learned well metallurgy from S-E Caspian regions, and that they negociated their skills among foreign tribes, not being numerous enough yet to impose their strength. It would be interesting to know if the unity of metallurgy was tied to unity of domestic culture: maybe it was only some kind of nomadic trade rather than a demic emigration of numerous and homogenous people?

johen
12-05-19, 20:02
@ johen

the serpent sky exist in Hettites too
the Illuyanka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuyanka
But they appear to be R1b if not wrong

As far as I know, Hittites have same type of skull as Greek bronze, extremely close to cromagnon. So it would be R1b. However, we think it could be same situation of scythian, who have now r1b-z2103, r1a z93 and Q1a. Pontic scythian have a sunhead culture of barehead with a long braid. They also used human skull as a dring cup like east scythian and american indian archaeologically. I mean that human was ruled by culture, not body. If humans are raised in wolf culture generation by generation, the humans are nothing but wolves.

Yetos
12-05-19, 20:28
Seyma-:Turbino culture is an interesting phenomenon; the metals findings are they connected to an unique ethny? Good question...
Grigoryev, whose I don't share every conclusion BTW, considers that the S-T metallurgy has its prototypes in Near-Eastern cultures (the womb of everything), and think that this culture in its expansion mixed with a lot other cultures, to form new ones among whom emerged the Celts, before the emergence of Germanics, Balts and Slavs a bit latter, all of them arrived in Europe relatively late, so. Old theories considered rather the S-T culture was almost exclusively the motor or launcher of future Uralic expansions.
I avow I've not clue to date to prove or disprove an ancient or recent presence of Uralic speakers in N-E Europe or the links of Uralic dialects with Y-N1.
It's possible this brutal expansion of S-M was the fact of peri-Altay tribes very mobile, after they learned well metallurgy from S-E Caspian regions, and that they negociated their skills among foreign tribes, not being numerous enough yet to impose their strength. It would be interesting to know if the unity of metallurgy was tied to unity of domestic culture: maybe it was only some kind of nomadic trade rather than a demic emigration of numerous and homogenous people?


:smile: :smile: :smile:

The question that bothers me 2 years now, after Lazarides papper.
is BMAC and Andronovo,
what exchanges of culture happened there, and when.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/Indo-Iranian_origins.png/260px-Indo-Iranian_origins.png

MOESAN
12-05-19, 21:43
As far as I know, Hittites have same type of skull as Greek bronze, extremely close to cromagnon. So it would be R1b. However, we think it could be same situation of scythian, who have now r1b-z2103, r1a z93 and Q1a. Pontic scythian have a sunhead culture of barehead with a long braid. They also used human skull as a dring cup like east scythian and american indian archaeologically. I mean that human was ruled by culture, not body. If humans are raised in wolf culture generation by generation, the humans are nothing but wolves.

just a detail: where have you had the occasion to see BA Greeks sculls? I doubt they were so 'cromagnoid' at those times. Rather heterogenous I think. ANd for Hittites we know little enough, some of them deformed their skulls, I red.

johen
12-05-19, 21:56
@ johen

the serpent sky exist in Hettites too
the Illuyanka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuyanka
But they appear to be R1b if not wrong

Yet the slain of sky serpent exist even today only the serpent is in Earth.
https://saintgeorgecathedral.net/images/saintgeorge-new.jpg


But Mycaenae and Greek world religious seem to be closer to Hurrian and Urartu ones,
The castrate of Supreme God, the human like, thunder holding God, etc, the human like sun.

Snake is like sun's rays for creation:

https://www.ancient.eu/uploads/images/2356.jpg?v=1485680619
https://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/as/web-large/DT5236.jpg

However, I don't know how the concept is connected to mythology of snake, a ruler of underworld, which is killed by sky god:

The Sky God kills the dragon Illuyanka
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Museum_of_Anatolian_Civilizations082_kopie1jpg.jpg

mexico city was founded at the spot where eagles(means sky) killed snake:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Coat_of_arms_of_Mexico.svg

MOESAN
12-05-19, 22:22
:smile: :smile: :smile:

The question that bothers me 2 years now, after Lazarides papper.
is BMAC and Andronovo,
what exchanges of culture happened there, and when.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/Indo-Iranian_origins.png/260px-Indo-Iranian_origins.png

an extract of a bigger digest, if useful:
[...
In these graves at Gonur, associated with the early settlement of Gonur North, one horse was found. A brick-lined grave pit contained the contorted bodies of ten adult humans who were apparently killed in the grave itself, one of whom fell across a small funeral wagon with solid wooden wheels. The grave also contained a whole dog, a whole camel, and the decapitated body of a horse foal (the reverse of an Aryan horse sacrifice). This grave is thought to have been a sacrificial offering that accompanied a nearby “royal” tomb. The royal tomb contained funeral gifts that included a bronze image of a horse head, probably a pommel decoration on a wooden staff. Another horse head image appeared as a decoration on a crested copper axe of the BMAC type, unfortunately obtained on the art market and now housed in the Louvre. Finally, a BMAC-style seal probably looted from a BMAC cemetery in Bactria (Afghanistan) showed a man riding a galloping equid that looks very much like a horse (see figure 16.3). The design was similar to the contemporary galloping-horse-and-rider image on the Ur III seal of Abbakalla, dated 2040–2050 BCE. Both seals showed a galloping horse, a rider with a hair-knot on the back of his head, and a man walking.
These finds suggest that horses began to appear in Central Asia about 2100–2000 BCE but never were used for food. They appeared only as decorative symbols on high-status objects and, in one case, in a funeral sacrifice. Given their simultaneous appearance across Iran and Mesopotamia, and the position of BMAC between the steppes and the southern civilizations, horses were probably a trade commodity. After chariots were introduced to the princes of the BMAC, Iran, and the Near East around 2000–1900 BCE, the demand for horses could easily have been on the order of tens of thousands of animals annually.17

Steppe Immigrants in Central Asia Fred Hiebert’s excavations at the walled town of Gonur North in Margiana, dated 2100–2000 BCE, turned up a few sherds of strange pottery, unlike any other pottery at Gonur. It was made with a paddle-and-anvil technique on a cloth-lined form—the clay was pounded over an upright cloth-covered pot to make the basic shape, and then was removed and finished. This is how Sintashta pottery was made. These strange sherds were imported from the steppe. At this stage (equivalent to early Sintashta) there was very little steppe pottery at Gonur, but it was there, at the same time a horse foal was thrown into a sacrificial pit in the Gonur North cemetery. Another possible trace of this early phase of contact were “Abashevo-like” pottery sherds decorated with horizontal channels, found at the tin miners’ camp at Karnab on the lower Zeravshan. Late Abashevo was contemporary with Sintashta.
During the classic phase of the BMAC, 2000–1800 BCE, contact with steppe people became much more visible. Steppe pots were brought into the rural stronghold at Togolok 1 in Margiana, inside the larger palace/temple at Togolok 21, inside the central citadel at Gonur South, and inside the walled palace/temple at Djarkutan in Bactria (figure 16.6). These sherds were clearly from steppe cultures. Similar designs can be found on Sintashta pots at Krivoe Ozero (k. 9, gr. 3; k. 10, gr. 13) but were more common on pottery of early Andronovo (Alakul variant) type, dated after 1900–1800 BCE—pottery like that used by the Andronovo miners at Karnab. Although the amount of steppe pottery in classic BMAC sites is small, it is widespread, and there is no doubt that it derived from northern steppe cultures. In these contexts, dated 2000–1800 BCE, the most likely steppe sources were the Petrovka culture at Tugai or the first Alakul-Andronovo tin miners at Karnab, both located in the Zeravshan valley.18
The Petrovka settlement at Tugai appeared just 27 km downstream (west) of Sarazm, not far from the later site of Samarkand, the greatest caravan trading city of medieval Central Asia. Perhaps Tugai had a similar, if more modest, function in an early north-south trade network. The Petrovka culture (see below) was an eastern offshoot of Sintashta. The Petrovka people at Tugai constructed two copper-smelting ovens, crucibles with copper slag, and at least one dwelling. Their pottery included at least twenty-two pots made with the paddle-and-anvil technique on a cloth-lined form. Most of them were made of clay tempered with crushed shell, the standard mixture for Petrovka potters, but two were tempered with crushed talc/steatite minerals. Talc-tempered clays were typical of Sintashta, Abashevo, and even forest-zone pottery of Ural forager cultures, so these two pots probably were carried to the Zeravshan from the Ural steppes. The pottery shapes and impressed designs were classic early Petrovka (figure 16.7). A substantial group of Petrovka people apparently moved from the Ural-Ishim steppes to Tugai, probably in wagons loaded with pottery and other possessions. They left garbage middens with the bones of cattle, sheep, and goats, but they did not eat horses—although their Petrovka relatives in the northern steppes did. Tugai also contained sherds of wheel-made cups in red-polished and black-polished fabrics typical of the latest phase at Sarazm (IV). The principal activity identified in the small excavated area was copper smelting.19

https://erenow.net/ancient/the-horse-the-wheel-and-language/the-horse-the-wheel-and-language.files/image143.jpg Figure 16.6 A whole steppe pot found inside the walls of the Gonur South town, after Hiebert 1994; steppe sherds with zig-zag decoration found inside the walls of Togolok 1, after Kuzmina 2003; and similar motifs on Sintashta sherds from graves at Krivoe Ozero, Ural steppes, after Vinogradov 2003, figures 39 and 74.

https://erenow.net/ancient/the-horse-the-wheel-and-language/the-horse-the-wheel-and-language.files/image144.jpg Figure 16.7 The Petrovka settlement at Tugai on the Zeravshan River: (top) plan of excavation; (center left) imported redware pottery like that of Sarazm IV; (center right) two coarse ceramic crucibles from the metal-working area; (bottom) Petrovka pottery. Adapted from Avanessova 1996.
The steppe immigrants at Tugai brought chariots with them. A grave at Zardcha-Khalifa 1 km east of Sarazm contained a male buried in a contracted pose on his right side, head to the northwest, in a large oval pit, 3.2 m by 2.1 m, with the skeleton of a ram.20 The grave gifts included three wheel-made Namazga VI ceramic pots, typical of the wares made in Bactrian sites of the BMAC such as Sappali and Dzharkutan; a trough-spouted bronze vessel (typical of BMAC) and fragments of two others; a pair of gold trumpet-shaped earrings; a gold button; a bronze straight-pin with a small cast horse on one end; a stone pestle; two bronze bar bits with looped ends; and two largely complete bone disc-shaped cheekpieces of the Sintashta type, with fragments of two others (figure 16.8). The two bronze bar bits are the oldest known metal bits anywhere. With the four cheekpieces they suggest equipment for a chariot team. The cheekpieces were a specific Sintashta type (the raised bump around the central hole is the key typological detail), though disc-shaped studded cheekpieces also appeared in many Petrovka graves. Stone pestles also frequently appeared in Sintashta and Petrovka graves. The Zardcha-Khalifa grave probably was that of an immigrant from the north who had acquired many BMAC luxury objects. He was buried with the only known BMAC-made pin with the figure of a horse—perhaps made just for him. The Zardcha-Khalifa chief may have been a horse dealer. The Zeravshan valley and the Ferghana valley just to the north might have become the breeding ground at this time for the fine horses for which they were known in later antiquity.
The fabric-impressed pottery and the sacrificed horse foal at Gonur North and perhaps the Abashevo (?) sherds at Karnab represent the exploratory phase of contact and trade between the northern steppes and the southern urban civilizations about 2100–2000 BCE, during the period when the kings of Ur III still dominated Elam. Information and perhaps even cult practices from the south flowed back to early Sintashta societies. On the eastern frontier in Kazakhstan, where Petrovka was budding off from Sintashta, the lure of the south prompted a migration across more than a thousand kilometers of hostile desert. The establishment of the Petrovka metal-working colony at Tugai, probably around 1900 BCE, was the beginning of the second phase, marked by the actual migration of chariot-driving tribes from the north into Central Asia. Sarazm and the irrigation-fed Zaman-Baba villages were abandoned about when the Petrovka miners arrived at Tugai. The steppe tribes quickly appropriated the ore sources of the Zeravshan, and their horses and chariots might have made it impossible for the men of Sarazm to defend themselves.
...] from:
https://erenow.net/ancient/the-horse-the-wheel-and.../16.php (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&ved=2ahUKEwjLiKDA4JbiAhVl8OAKHQE_CJ4QFjAMegQIBhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Ferenow.net%2Fancient%2Fthe-horse-the-wheel-and-language%2F16.php&usg=AOvVaw0hHFAyk8Dg5jMu0WE0hJTO)

blevins13
12-05-19, 22:44
Recent genetic testings of sites in south Siberia and Kazakhstan (Andronovo horizon) would rather support a spreading of the bronze technology via Indo-European migrations eastwards, as this technology was well known for quite a while in western regions putting in question the spread of Uralic languages via Seima-Turbino Culture.


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Yetos
13-05-19, 06:18
@ Moesan

So we see steppe cultures elements, to enter BMAC,
even eliminate parts of irrigated agriculture,
But we do not see element of Near/Middle East cultures to enter steppe cultures,

I know that they share almost same Ydna R1a,
yet since tottaly diferrent cultures shouldn\t that (Ydna) be different?

Yetos
13-05-19, 07:37
The Mettalurgy of Seima turbino


On the book of Roberts and Thorton, ISBN 9781461490173
it is clear that Seima Turbino uses 2 kinds of bronze,
the one is typical the Arsenic bronze which is rather a mettalurgy of steppe, and around Yamnaa to steppe, S Urals
and the other is the mettalurgy of Tin bronze,
the Tin Bronze is connected with S Caucasos and Near/middle east as far as I know.
Yet in Seima Turbino, the Tin as ingredient is from Altai mt, !!!!

Yetos
13-05-19, 07:43
the wood as main material in Seima Turbino

Interesting is also the wood in chariots,
by understanding that industry mainly uses cheap local products,
Notice Egypt used pappyros for ships.
Seima turbino mobility instrument start might be from areas with enough and strong tree/wood coverage, possibly not the open arid steppe.

bicicleur
13-05-19, 08:26
Recent genetic testings of sites in south Siberia and Kazakhstan (Andronovo horizon) would rather support a spreading of the bronze technology via Indo-European migrations eastwards, as this technology was well known for quite a while in western regions putting in question the spread of Uralic languages via Seima-Turbino Culture.


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in the Han formation period, Q1a-M120 was detected in elite burials

blevins13
13-05-19, 16:06
in the Han formation period, Q1a-M120 was detected in elite burials

Ok but what does this tell us about Seima-Turbino11027


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johen
13-05-19, 17:35
The Mettalurgy of Seima turbino


On the book of Roberts and Thorton, ISBN 9781461490173
it is clear that Seima Turbino uses 2 kinds of bronze,
the one is typical the Arsenic bronze which is rather a mettalurgy of steppe, and around Yamnaa to steppe, S Urals
and the other is the mettalurgy of Tin bronze,
the Tin Bronze is connected with S Caucasos and Near/middle east as far as I know.
Yet in Seima Turbino, the Tin as ingredient is from Altai mt, !!!!

As far as I know, west ural part of ST has arsenic bronze, but east ural part of ST Tin. The place of tin mining in steppe is east kazark and the altai. Sintashta arsenic and seima turbino tin technology originated from south caucasus.
Two technology at the same time and How? I just think they would copy the technology by stealing technologists from the caucasus.
More question is where andronovo tin power came from.

johen
13-05-19, 17:42
the wood as main material in Seima Turbino

Interesting is also the wood in chariots,
by understanding that industry mainly uses cheap local products,
Notice Egypt used pappyros for ships.
Seima turbino mobility instrument start might be from areas with enough and strong tree/wood coverage, possibly not the open arid steppe.

Does the book mention about seima turbino chariot?
Caucasus type chariot was found in china bronze where ST and karasuk entered. In copper hoard near IVC Very sophisticated chariot was found, where I think the ST culture penetrated. As far as I know, no chariots were found in seima turbino tombs.

Yetos
13-05-19, 18:08
Does the book mention about seima turbino chariot?
Caucasus type chariot was found in china bronze where ST and karasuk entered. In copper hoard near IVC Very sophisticated chariot was found, where I think the ST culture penetrated. As far as I know, no chariots were found in seima turbino tombs.


No the book does not mention about chariots,
But most works I 've recently look, say about Forest zones,

areas of more Northern than the arid steppes,

xiaodragon
14-05-19, 20:37
<< Another pattern involves the similarity in the range of hg N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya.51 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bib51) Extending across northern Eurasia from Mongolia to the Baltic region, this phenomenon encompasses the cultures of nomadic forest and steppe societies with advanced metal-working technology.51 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bib51) Taken together, these facts hint at the Seima-Turbino metalsmith-traders as the probable primary carriers of hg N3a3’6 lineages. >>

<< N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have been brought to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups, but earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either, given that a study of ancient DNA52 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bib52) revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. >>

thanks for sharing the information , I find it very helpful in understand the westward spread of the Northern Eurasians. There is a very ancient book "shanhaijing "(山海经) known to the English readership as 'The Book of Mountains and Seas " ,which is believed to have been compiled somewhere around 2300BC . The second and third volumns :the west mountains and the northern mountains (西山经,北山经)detail all the geographical landmarks from the most northern and eastern tip of northeast China all the way to great Caucasos mountain and the peoples or tribes living there . I believe this book can throw great light on the routes the Eurasian steppe people took to spread .

xiaodragon
14-05-19, 22:34
Overall, a considerable proportion of men inhabiting much of the Arctic and temperate zones of western and eastern Eurasia share N3a3’6 lineages that date back to the mid-Holocene (4.5–5.0 kya). This common patrilineal ancestry unites widely different linguistic phyla, including Indo-European, particularly Balto-Slavic, branches of the Altaic, such as the Mongolic, Turkic, Tungusic, and Chukotko-Kamchatkan branches, as well as the Balto-Finnic branch of the Finno-Ugric。

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5005449/#mmc2

xiaodragon
14-05-19, 22:38
This westward spread of the N lineage may be the results of migration of big animal game as well as the deer hunting people.

xiaodragon
15-05-19, 01:05
As far as I know, west ural part of ST has arsenic bronze, but east ural part of ST Tin. The place of tin mining in steppe is east kazark and the altai. Sintashta arsenic and seima turbino tin technology originated from south caucasus.
Two technology at the same time and How? I just think they would copy the technology by stealing technologists from the caucasus.
More question is where andronovo tin power came from. reposted from Johen's comment

markod
15-05-19, 02:15
As far as I know, west ural part of ST has arsenic bronze, but east ural part of ST Tin. The place of tin mining in steppe is east kazark and the altai. Sintashta arsenic and seima turbino tin technology originated from south caucasus.
Two technology at the same time and How? I just think they would copy the technology by stealing technologists from the caucasus.
More question is where andronovo tin power came from. reposted from Johen's comment

We don't have good metal age dates from the Iranian plateau yet, but I believe the local sites to be among the earliest. I'd guess those technologies spread into Inner Asia from there.

johen
15-05-19, 04:31
I think sintashta migration is just a part of huge ST culture migrations. Regarding PIE, the sintashta is a very important position to connect west to south asia. But see their migration,
did they reach the altai by chariot?

see what WSHG did on foot.
They reached whole eurasia. I think they did north east asia also to make altai language family have tons of similar words to tamil. How about EHG? EHG R1a carried late baikal pottery and mtDNA C, being buried like WSHG, who introduced the supine type into east europe. wait and see sumer result also.

I don't know what the sintashta people did with the worldly-praising chariot.
Moreover, their horse is genetically arctic horse like east scythian horse.

https://abload.de/img/iir_mfa6ns5v.png

Yetos
15-05-19, 08:45
hm

Interesting,

So the Questions now are,


Trialeti culture, known for socketed items,
How much ST could be? or the oposite, ST how much Trialeti can be?

and if Athanashevo is from Yamnaans? arsenic bronze,
How come Okunevo are tin miners and mettalurgists? rather a S caucasos mining,

johen
15-05-19, 18:45
hm

Interesting,

So the Questions now are,


Trialeti culture, known for socketed items,
How much ST could be? or the oposite, ST how much Trialeti can be?

and if Athanashevo is from Yamnaans? arsenic bronze,
How come Okunevo are tin miners and mettalurgists? rather a S caucasos mining,

tracing metals?

Anyway, Afanasievo with 2 Q1a(not outlier) couldn't be from yamna. The afanasievo doesn't have whg and GAC , which yamna samples have. Now 3 options are left regarding the origin of afanasievo.

OKunevo imorted new western mtDNA, which is maybe related with Tin technology. Considering their maximum cruelty, they stole technicians from BMAC? I think it was and is a rule to steal technology and dominate world with maximum brutality.

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/mtdna-ydna-afanasevo-okunevo.jpg
https://abload.de/img/iir_mfa6ns5v.png
And also okunevo culture went down to IVC valley, and its artifact has something to do with ancient Greek.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16669-ZEUS-and-altai-petroglyph (post 10)

johen
16-05-19, 17:38
OKunevo imorted new western mtDNA, which is maybe related with Tin technology. Considering their maximum cruelty, they stole technicians from BMAC? I think it was and is a rule to steal technology and dominate world with maximum brutality.

And also okunevo culture went down to IVC valley, and its artifact has something to do with ancient Greek.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16669-ZEUS-and-altai-petroglyph (post 10)

a finish scholar explained seima turbino phenomenon as a ST network, but looks like he did not know who the altai people were at that time. ST and its relative culture reached china where their cruelty appeared. And this kind of brutal culture continued in east asia:


abstract records on human sacrifice have been revealed by the oracle-bone inscriptions of shang dynasty. human sacrifices carry special symbolic significance in shang dynasty for worshipping spirits. different methods of killing were used in worship rituals. as the inscription reveals, some words are used as the methods of killing of human beings in general. in the meantime, some special characters are used to refer to specific killing methods through analysis of the characters and structures of the language. the lecture will focus on 12 different methods of killing human sacrifice. the methods include beheading, splitting the body into halves, dismembering bodies, beating to death, chopping to death, extracting blood, burying alive, drowning, burning to death, boiling, corpse displaying, exposing body part to hot sun. with the analysis of the different methods of human sacrifice, it is easy to conclude that human sacrifice was a very common religious practice in shang dynasty. these practices reflect the cruelty of the rulers to their subjects and their piety towards the spirits they worship.

xiaodragon
28-05-19, 21:39
chromosomes from a collection of 6,521 samples from 56 populations. The more southerly distributed sub-clade N4 emerged before N2a1 and N3, found mostly in the north, but the latter two display more elaborate branching patterns, indicative of regional contrasts in recent expansions. In particular, a number of prominent and well-defined clades with common N3a3’6 ancestry occur in regionally dissimilar northern Eurasian populations, indicating almost simultaneous regional diversification and expansion within the last 5,000 years. This patrilineal genetic affinity is decoupled from the associated higher degree of language diversity.

https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(16)30160-4

xiaodragon
28-05-19, 21:52
compare two images:
first , Taiwan ,East China (畀南遗址,about 5,300 --2,300BP)
second: Seima Turbino 1111311114
1111511116

Yetos
28-05-19, 21:59
@xiao

your attachment is invalid,

plz reset and replace.

xiaodragon
29-05-19, 05:54
got one email, the first figurine came from Taiwan , China, (畀南遗址由碳十四定年法推算,卑 遗址存在的年代大约是距今5,300至2,300 年前,其中又以距今3,500至2300年前最 兴盛)。Binan Site from Taiwan is dated as 5,300BP to 2,300 BP, its peak day is from 3,500 to 2,300 BP。

xiaodragon
29-05-19, 06:15
<< Another pattern involves the similarity in the range of hg N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya.51 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bib51) Extending across northern Eurasia from Mongolia to the Baltic region, this phenomenon encompasses the cultures of nomadic forest and steppe societies with advanced metal-working technology.51 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bib51) Taken together, these facts hint at the Seima-Turbino metalsmith-traders as the probable primary carriers of hg N3a3’6 lineages. >>

<< N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have been brought to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups, but earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either, given that a study of ancient DNA52 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bib52) revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. >>

xiaodragon
30-05-19, 01:22
many people believe that Seima Turbino was R1a, relative of -Z93,
yet many searchers believe they were N3a -B211

I am hosting a part of work, claiming no rights,
and a link

link
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bbib49

hosting a part, (no rights I own)

<< Another pattern involves the similarity in the range of hg N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya.51 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bib51) Extending across northern Eurasia from Mongolia to the Baltic region, this phenomenon encompasses the cultures of nomadic forest and steppe societies with advanced metal-working technology.51 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bib51) Taken together, these facts hint at the Seima-Turbino metalsmith-traders as the probable primary carriers of hg N3a3’6 lineages. >>
<< N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have been brought to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups, but earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either, given that a study of ancient DNA52 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bib52) revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. >>


the population size started to grow right at the 7,500 year time from Siberia, I think it has something to do with the steady development of agriculture in east end of the Eurasia.
11117

johen
30-05-19, 01:47
got one email, the first figurine came from Taiwan , China, (畀南遗址由碳十四定年法推算,卑 遗址存在的年代大约是距今5,300至2,300 年前,其中又以距今3,500至2300年前最 兴盛)。Binan Site from Taiwan is dated as 5,300BP to 2,300 BP, its peak day is from 3,500 to 2,300 BP。
Can you give us more information or link related with the site?

Seima turbino culture reached erlitou culture( so called Xia dynasty) and far to southeast 2,000bc. Moreover their knives were found in shimao step pyramid in north china:

Figure 4. Drawing of three single-edged knives: a) of the Elunio culture ( one of seima turbino culture), 2000–1800 BC, Russian Altai, length around 220mm; b) from Shimao, 2000–1800 BC, length around 100mm:c) Erlitou, 1700–1600 BC, length around 255mm (drawing by John Rawson).

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/shimao-and-erlitou-new-perspectives-on-the-origins-of-the-bronze-industry-in-central-china/672573C3699701D312E7D2286B973D5F/core-reader


https://static.cambridge.org/resource/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary:20180104010448536-0636:S0003598X16002349:S0003598X16002349_fig4g.gif ?pub-status=live

https://static.cambridge.org/resource/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary-alt:20170920130655-24645-optimisedImage-S0003598X17001776_fig1g.jpg


https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/origins-of-metallurgy-in-china/69E7A6EE63F38C7D5B2B0612E48DE264/core-reader[/QUOTE]

johen
04-06-19, 22:49
Seyma-:Turbino culture is an interesting phenomenon; the metals findings are they connected to an unique ethny? Good question...
Grigoryev, whose I don't share every conclusion BTW, considers that the S-T metallurgy has its prototypes in Near-Eastern cultures (the womb of everything), and think that this culture in its expansion mixed with a lot other cultures, to form new ones among whom emerged the Celts, before the emergence of Germanics, Balts and Slavs a bit latter, all of them arrived in Europe relatively late, so. Old theories considered rather the S-T culture was almost exclusively the motor or launcher of future Uralic expansions.
I avow I've not clue to date to prove or disprove an ancient or recent presence of Uralic speakers in N-E Europe or the links of Uralic dialects with Y-N1.
It's possible this brutal expansion of S-M was the fact of peri-Altay tribes very mobile, after they learned well metallurgy from S-E Caspian regions, and that they negociated their skills among foreign tribes, not being numerous enough yet to impose their strength. It would be interesting to know if the unity of metallurgy was tied to unity of domestic culture: maybe it was only some kind of nomadic trade rather than a demic emigration of numerous and homogenous people?

Are those all related with celtic people?

I think seima turbino culture surely entered south India with altai culture like pyramid/ snake culture/ maybe mayan yoga/ may okunevo sunhead and thunderbolt creator concept/ maybe third eye culture of okunevo, of which petroglyphs were found near IVC according Karl Zettmar. Moreover the culture reached to china bronze where PIE were found: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16669-ZEUS-and-altai-petroglyph&p=572911 (post 17)




breaking metals and handling ideas about bronze age hoards from western iberia also. who brought that?


https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carlo_Bottaini/publication/330798811/figure/fig2/AS:[email protected]/A-Barrenhas-or-Vilela-Seca-hoard-according-to-Villas-Boas-1948-Lam-2-B-Moura-da.ppm
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330798811_Breaking_metals_and_handling_ideas_about _Bronze_Age_Hoards_from_Western_Iberia_Material_pa tterns_invisible_behaviors_and_possible_interpreta tions_In_A_Valera_Ed_Fragmentation_and_depositions _in_Pre_an



Did seima turbino culture land on British isles? Who brought it over there?
Is it possible that british people started to speak IE since then?


https://i2-prod.walesonline.co.uk/incoming/article3407802.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/bronze-age.jpg


https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/treasure-trove-bronze-age-artefacts-3407818


https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Oliver_Dietrich/publication/289671485/figure/fig1/AS:[email protected]/Model-of-the-proposed-spread-of-socketed-axes-from-east-to-west-At-present-radiocarbon.png

johen
05-06-19, 05:42
^
Does somebody know how the following logo to be related with celtic culture?


http://ib.frath.net/w/images/7/73/Armorica.png


china bronze around 1,100bc:


http://39.108.14.143:8009/English/upload/images/2018/11/1215621206.png
http://english.jinshasitemuseum.com/Treasure

johen
06-06-19, 19:52
^
Was celtic people called as Celt, b/c they were using celt(tool)?

seima turbino celts
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Celts_Seima-Turbino_GIM.jpg

MOESAN
07-06-19, 21:35
^
Was celtic people called as Celt, b/c they were using celt(tool)?

seima turbino celts
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Celts_Seima-Turbino_GIM.jpg

t's only a hazard, I think. The english 'celt' is from latin 'celtis' = "chisel" -

MOESAN
07-06-19, 22:28
@Johen
Grigoryev wrote the following:
[...settlements with round plan, ceramics with roller, bone plate armours, developed metallurgy and domesticanimals.During XVI-XV centuries artefacts closely related to Seyma tradition became typical for hoards in Pannonia, France and England. Thus, these bronzes distribution marks the moving of Celts.A new wave of newcomers left F’odorovo culture sites. Some include usually this culture, together withAlakul culture, in Andronovo culture. However, all attempts to find its local roots had no success. But theseroots are in North-Western Iran and South Azerbaijan: cremation in stone boxes and cysts under mounds, clayprops for hearth, oval dishes, polished ware. Complex of metal have analogies in Circumpontic area, but first ofall, in Sumbar culture in South-Western Turkmenistan. Potteries from Central Asia have been found in someF’odorovo sites.Typical F’odorovo artefacts are known up to Dnieper river. However, a contact of F’odorovo tribes withfirst wave of newcomers is more important for us. As a result of this contact new cultures were formed, whichfix this contact and a gradual displacement of these populations to the West: Chernoozerie in Irtish basin,Cherkaskul in the Urals, Suskan and Prikazanskaia in Volga-Kama region, Pozdniakovo in Oka basin. Thesecultures combine cremation and inhumation, mounds and flat burials, bronzes of Seyma and F’odorovo types.Next moving of these tribes to the West leads to forming of Sosnitzkaia culture on the left-bank ofDnieper, Trzciniec-Komarov culture from Dnieper to Vistula and Tumulus culture in Central and NorthernEurope. These cultures reflect localisation of Balts, Slavs and Germans...]

Ancient scholars spoke of possible influences from Siberia and even China upon La Tène; and of strong Scythian technics influences upon the same La Tène; but it's very later than the 16th/15th Centuries BC. But cultural or technical input is not by force an ethnic one. That said the 15th Cy could correspond to the Tumuli culture of Bavaria and Central Europe which is seen as Celtic or Italo-Celtic by a lot of people; Personally I think proto-Celts are older than Tumuli, and linked to Y-R1b-P312. It would not be the first time that some foreign newcomers integrated and even dominated other culture, forming the elite with new artefacts, despite forming only a minority concerning number and loosing its proper language and demic input after some later generations - the mysterious "Illyrians" did maybe the geographical link between Celto-Italics and Steppes of the time? By instance, the "Celtic" Hallstatt elite of Wurttemberg/Bavaria showed 1/4 of physically newcomers of a mix with evident "proto-europoid" types input, maybe not too different from some 'corded' types, close to other newcomers of the same period in High-Austria, Low-Austria, Croatia, Slavonia, Hungary and Silesia; Illyrians are supposed to have cut off Celts and Italics according to some people? Or others ???
among Celts their demic input seems having merely disappeared in La Tène; maybe not their imports? There is no link to the Seyma-Turbino question but it shows demic/ethnic input can be very lighter than the cultural one. People loan and adapt. Celts were very smart at this sport.

johen
07-06-19, 23:16
t's only a hazard, I think. The english 'celt' is from latin 'celtis' = "chisel" -

So the celts were chisel people. However, the shape of chisel and seima celt is similar.

greek chisel:
https://sites.duke.edu/nashervirtue/files/2016/02/SCmovieGreekChisel-800x571.jpg
https://sites.duke.edu/nashervirtue/stone-carving-tools/

Considering B:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carlo_Bottaini/publication/330798811/figure/fig2/AS:[email protected]/A-Barrenhas-or-Vilela-Seca-hoard-according-to-Villas-Boas-1948-Lam-2-B-Moura-da.ppm
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330798811_Breaking_metals_and_handling_ideas_about _Bronze_Age_Hoards_from_Western_Iberia_Material_pa tterns_invisible_behaviors_and_possible_interpreta tions_In_A_Valera_Ed_Fragmentation_and_depositions _in_Pre_an

The copper hoard people in india also had chisel shape 5, torcs shape 8 artifacts. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Ind_cu_hoard_groups.svg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Hoard_Culture

johen
08-06-19, 01:52
@Johen
Grigoryev wrote the following:
[...settlements with round plan, ceramics with roller, bone plate armours, developed metallurgy and domesticanimals.During XVI-XV centuries artefacts closely related to Seyma tradition became typical for hoards in Pannonia, France and England. Thus, these bronzes distribution marks the moving of Celts.A new wave of newcomers left F’odorovo culture sites. Some include usually this culture, together withAlakul culture, in Andronovo culture. However, all attempts to find its local roots had no success. But theseroots are in North-Western Iran and South Azerbaijan: cremation in stone boxes and cysts under mounds, clayprops for hearth, oval dishes, polished ware. Complex of metal have analogies in Circumpontic area, but first ofall, in Sumbar culture in South-Western Turkmenistan. Potteries from Central Asia have been found in someF’odorovo sites.Typical F’odorovo artefacts are known up to Dnieper river. However, a contact of F’odorovo tribes withfirst wave of newcomers is more important for us. As a result of this contact new cultures were formed, whichfix this contact and a gradual displacement of these populations to the West: Chernoozerie in Irtish basin,Cherkaskul in the Urals, Suskan and Prikazanskaia in Volga-Kama region, Pozdniakovo in Oka basin. Thesecultures combine cremation and inhumation, mounds and flat burials, bronzes of Seyma and F’odorovo types.Next moving of these tribes to the West leads to forming of Sosnitzkaia culture on the left-bank ofDnieper, Trzciniec-Komarov culture from Dnieper to Vistula and Tumulus culture in Central and NorthernEurope. These cultures reflect localisation of Balts, Slavs and Germans...]


I think we don't have any records to prove that yamna, bellbeaker or sintashta spoke PIE. However, I am sure that PIE were found at similar time of the celts, ancient greek, india bronze and china bronze, of which common denominator seems to be seima turbino. I hope Bostonians dig in right place of greece and India this time.

MOESAN
08-06-19, 22:47
I think we don't have any records to prove that yamna, bellbeaker or sintashta spoke PIE. However, I am sure that PIE were found at similar time of the celts, ancient greek, india bronze and china bronze, of which common denominator seems to be seima turbino. I hope Bostonians dig in right place of greece and India this time.

I agree,we don't have any proof. Only more or less reasonable speculations. That said, I copied this extract of Grigoryev, but I'm not persuaded of his accuracy here!
According to the few and little I red and my proper approximations it seems to me PIE preceded the MB and LB times, and was rather at the articulation of MLN and EBA. And I cannot put all these cultures on the same "plan" chronologically -
&: just for the fun (I beg the pardon of all forumers here), did you know the French orteil ('toe') is a deformation of arteil from latin articulus ?(look "articulation"!)

MOESAN
09-06-19, 15:19
So the celts were chisel people. However, the shape of chisel and seima celt is similar.



I did ot pay attention to this affirmation of yours.
NO, we cannot conclude so straightforwards that Celts = people of the celts!
I don't know the term in ancient greek for "celt"; concerning the latin form ("celtis"), it is without link with Celtic reality because the first Celts Latins saw were named 'Galli' by them, not 'Celti': 'Celt' is from Greek 'Keltoi', or I missed something. Maybe not a pan-ethnic term but rather a tribal name?
Perhaps 'Celt' has an ancient link with Germanic 'held'< 'helt' ? (I have not the ancient Germanic form).

johen
09-06-19, 17:06
From Seima-Turbino traditions in Northern France:
https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/9ocphfbyyo2t27q6/images/214-edb5d7ce43.jpg

To china:
https://static.cambridge.org/resource/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary-alt:20170920130655-24645-optimisedImage-S0003598X17001776_fig1g.jpg
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/origins-of-metallurgy-in-china/69E7A6EE63F38C7D5B2B0612E48DE264/core-reader

Seima turbino's maximum brutality and tin weapon supremacy, which reminds me of mongol. They also seems to establish their empire from china bronze to europe like mongol.


There is, probably, one more testimony to the invasion of Central Europe by the Seima-Turbino peoples. On Bronze Age settlements in Saxony, burials are known of skulls and pieces of bones showing signs of cannibalism. Unfortunately, the publication does not define more exactly to which period these finds relate [Grimm, 1997]. In particular, many simi-lar finds have been made in Slovakia, on settlements of the Veterov, Madjarovce and Otomani cultures.They are known on Unětice settlements very rarely.Often, traces of scraping and incisions are visible on bones, and the cooking of body parts is not ex-cluded. Sometimes there are pieces of skull. A cer-emonial mask found on the Nitriansky Hrádok set-tlement, made from the front of a skull, is especiallyinteresting [Furmanek, Jakab, 1997]. It should be noted that the distribution here of bronzes of Seima-Turbino type is dated exactly to this time and found on settlements of this group. The connection of suchrituals with these cultural groups can be demon-strated also by an example from South-WesternPoland, where, at the end of phase Br A2, the NowaGerekwia Group occurs, whose formation is usuallyconnected with the abovementioned cultural devel-opments in Slovakia. At this time both fortified set-tlements and burials on settlements appeared here.Very often there are separate human bones, espe-cially skulls and pieces of skull. It was uncharacter-istic of Unětice culture and is subsequently absentfrom Trzciniec culture.


Essential changes in metalworking occurred inthe Middle Bronze Age [Megaw, Simpson, 1979, p.207], of which the appearance of arrowheads look-ing back to Seima-Turbino forms is of most interestto us. They have a cast elongated round socket, awide long blade, and a round or rhombic socket-shank. On the socket there are eyes for attachment(Fig. 78.3,4). Some sockets are ornamented withtriangles or zigzags which correspond closely toSeima tradition [Ehrenberg, 1977]. Middle BronzeAge hoards also contain celts with a side eye [Farley,1979]. In addition to objects linked with Seima-Turbino metalworking, metal of Central Europeanorigin occurs in the Wessex complexes, in particu-lar, pins of Unětician types [Megaw, Simpson, 1979, p. 227].
https://www.academia.edu/3742220/Ancient_Indo-Europeans._Chelyabinsk_Rifei_2002

johen
10-06-19, 00:04
I did ot pay attention to this affirmation of yours.
NO, we cannot conclude so straightforwards that Celts = people of the celts!
I don't know the term in ancient greek for "celt"; concerning the latin form ("celtis"), it is without link with Celtic reality because the first Celts Latins saw were named 'Galli' by them, not 'Celti': 'Celt' is from Greek 'Keltoi', or I missed something. Maybe not a pan-ethnic term but rather a tribal name?
Perhaps 'Celt' has an ancient link with Germanic 'held'< 'helt' ? (I have not the ancient Germanic form).

[ The Gauls of Gallia Celtica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallia_Celtica) according to the testimony of Caesar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar) called themselves Celtae in their own language (as distinct from Belgae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae) and Aquitani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquitani)), and Galli in Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin).[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauls#cite_note-2) As is not unusual with ancient ethnonyms, these names came to be applied more widely than their original sense, Celtae being the origin of the term Celts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) itself (in its modern meaning referring to all populations speaking a language of the "Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages)" branch of Indo-European) while Galli is the origin of the adjective Gallic, now referring to all of Gaul.]

Do you know what the celtae means?

johen
10-06-19, 21:10
^
Does somebody know how the following logo to be related with celtic culture?


http://ib.frath.net/w/images/7/73/Armorica.png


china bronze around 1,100bc:


http://39.108.14.143:8009/English/upload/images/2018/11/1215621206.png
http://english.jinshasitemuseum.com/Treasure

a triskelion and torc of Gaul:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Casque_d%27Amfreville_Eure_arri%C3%A8re.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Gold_torque_1.jpg


copper hoard india torc shape 8 :
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Ind_cu_hoard_groups.svg

MOESAN
13-06-19, 22:03
[ The Gauls of Gallia Celtica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallia_Celtica) according to the testimony of Caesar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar) called themselves Celtae in their own language (as distinct from Belgae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae) and Aquitani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquitani)), and Galli in Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin).[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauls#cite_note-2) As is not unusual with ancient ethnonyms, these names came to be applied more widely than their original sense, Celtae being the origin of the term Celts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts) itself (in its modern meaning referring to all populations speaking a language of the "Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages)" branch of Indo-European) while Galli is the origin of the adjective Gallic, now referring to all of Gaul.]

Do you know what the celtae means?

Maybe you're right - in my remembrance, 'Keltoi' was mentioned by Greeks who colonized the Provence in Southeastern Gallia and the term was taken by Latins later under the form 'Celtae' - 'Galati' was to name the Celts of Eastern Europe, maybe without link with Galli - But you can read Wikipedia, for the worth it has or lacks. They mention hypothesis for the name 'Celt' - It is very debated and I have no clues to say which explanation is valuable. I suppose 'Celt' (or one form of it) is an endonyme, withtout solid proof.

MOESAN
13-06-19, 22:07
The Cina symbol and other symbols of close shape (some turning on the opposite direction) seems having been widely spred, as the "swastika' so appreciated by Nazis. I don't know the value we can give to this kind of ressemblances of designs... Fashions were already existing and we cannot always said the depth of their links with ancestry.

johen
16-06-19, 19:28
Maybe you're right - in my remembrance, 'Keltoi' was mentioned by Greeks who colonized the Provence in Southeastern Gallia and the term was taken by Latins later under the form 'Celtae' - 'Galati' was to name the Celts of Eastern Europe, maybe without link with Galli - But you can read Wikipedia, for the worth it has or lacks. They mention hypothesis for the name 'Celt' - It is very debated and I have no clues to say which explanation is valuable. I suppose 'Celt' (or one form of it) is an endonyme, withtout solid proof.

Do you know the origin of the coat of arms of France? Is it from Gaul?
it
I think eagle means sky, and sky is Zeus. Thus the emblem means like a zeus with a thunderbolt.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Insigne_Francum_Napoleonis.svg

"English: Imperial Coat of Arms of the French First Empire(1804-1815), under Napoleon Bonaparte. The Arms depicts a shield with a golden eagle in front of a blue background, within its talons clutching a thunderbolt."

it is same as the emblem of mexico. A snake can be replaced by a thunderbolt.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Coat_of_arms_of_Mexico.svg

see also mycenaean aka zeus burial and scythian enblem.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16669-ZEUS-and-altai-petroglyph/page2 (post 16)

MOESAN
16-06-19, 23:30
I've no knowledge (todate) about symbols and religion of Celts - I read somewhere boar and lark were among their "totemic" animals but without certainty.

johen
17-06-19, 04:01
Do you know the origin of the coat of arms of France? Is it from Gaul?
it
I think eagle means sky, and sky is Zeus. Thus the emblem means like a zeus with a thunderbolt.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Insigne_Francum_Napoleonis.svg

"English: Imperial Coat of Arms of the French First Empire(1804-1815), under Napoleon Bonaparte. The Arms depicts a shield with a golden eagle in front of a blue background, within its talons clutching a thunderbolt."

it is same as the emblem of mexico. A snake can be replaced by a thunderbolt.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Coat_of_arms_of_Mexico.svg

see also mycenaean aka zeus burial and scythian enblem.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16669-ZEUS-and-altai-petroglyph/page2 (post 16)

In ancient greek coins, eagles clutch thunderbolts.
However, the Bonaparte eagle is a symbol of imperial Rome, Jupiter’s bird. In ancient sicily coin and statue from roman britain,
eagle seizes snake like Mexican eagle emblem.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16669-ZEUS-and-altai-petroglyph/page3 (post 28)