PDA

View Full Version : a sample of ~600 shows that 71% of Saudi Arabians carry J1-M267 (J-P58 mutation)



ZTD
16-06-19, 09:52
https://tribusalgeriennes.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/25152058_833016163537216_4579788758459640864_n.png

it's more common among Tribal Arabians areas (reaches 90+%) , and less in the coast areas and holy lands in western Arabia because of Hajj (pilgrimage) and people coming from all over the world and some of them stay and don't go back home
here's a picture of an old man his grand Son is carrying the J1-M267 > J-P58 > J-l858 > FGC1696 > FGC1713 Sheikh of "Mutair" tribe
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdgQ9bXWAAEXqo_.jpg

ShpataEMadhe
07-09-19, 02:06
Yes and they did expand their genes, anyone who says otherwise is in denial

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379148/

What do you think of j1 in dagestan, there is an area with 90% J1, do they look quite arab to you other than their slightly lighter skin tone?

Kelmendasi
07-09-19, 02:21
Yes and they did expand their genes, anyone who says otherwise is in denial

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379148/

What do you think of j1 in dagestan, there is an area with 90% J1, do they look quite arab to you other than their slightly lighter skin tone?
As was explained before, the J1 in Dagestan has nothing to do with the J1 found among Arabs which is mainly under P58>FGC11. J1 in Dagestan belongs mainly to Z1828>Z1842 which is a native CHG (Caucasian Hunter Gatherer) haplogroup. The TMRCA of J1 Dagestanis and J1 Arabs (and other Semites for that matter) is ~18,200ybp placing their common ancestor way back to the Paleolithic, it is absurd to claim that they are related. J1 itself likely stems from the area between Eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus and Iran https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/.

ShpataEMadhe
07-09-19, 03:37
As was explained before, the J1 in Dagestan has nothing to do with the J1 found among Arabs which is mainly under P58>FGC11. J1 in Dagestan belongs mainly to Z1828>Z1842 which is a native CHG (Caucasian Hunter Gatherer) haplogroup. The TMRCA of J1 Dagestanis and J1 Arabs (and other Semites for that matter) is ~18,200ybp placing their common ancestor way back to the Paleolithic, it is absurd to claim that they are related. J1 itself likely stems from the area between Eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus and Iran https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/.
Imo J1 originated in Yemen, no one would move there to harsh conditions nearer the equator from north. Some of these yemen arabs would have moved north out of general curiosity and settled elsewhere but most J1 movement is definitely from Arab expansion year 650+. Mutated sub clades of J1 would have formed over time. It is not a coincidence that so many countries now have Arabic as main language and a lot of J1 (30%+) and even people like Armenians and Israel who rejected islam have over 10% J1. Crime/rape was normal back then, especially in times of conquest and war not to mention Muslim arabs had many wives making it more effective to spread their genes

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d96f0acbe960f31abe191f45aaa1c95f

As for dagestan j1, don't you find it odd how are they kinda extremist when it comes to their religion and have a lot of j1. Almost like a family tradition? Has dagestan j1 actually been found dating back before year 600 in that region? If yes, they could still be arabs who moved out of saudi Arabia and settled there before Islam but then were reunited with the conquests, later russia took over that land and they became more russian culturally/linguistically

Kelmendasi
07-09-19, 04:07
Imo J1 originated in Yemen, no one would move there to harsh conditions nearer the equator from north. Some of these yemen arabs would have moved north out of general curiosity and settled elsewhere but most J1 movement is definitely from Arab expansion year 650+. Mutated sub clades of J1 would have formed over time. It is not a coincidence that so many countries now have Arabic as main language and a lot of J1 (30%+) and even people like Armenians and Israel who rejected islam have over 10% J1. Crime/rape was normal back then, especially in times of conquest and war not to mention Muslim arabs had many wives making it more effective to spread their genes

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d96f0acbe960f31abe191f45aaa1c95f

As for dagestan j1, don't you find it odd how are they kinda extremist when it comes to their religion and have a lot of j1. Almost like a family tradition? Has dagestan j1 actually been found dating back before year 600 in that region? If yes, they could still be arabs who moved out of saudi Arabia and settled there before Islam but then were reunited with the conquests, later russia took over that land and they became more russian culturally/linguistically
You should really read up on Y-DNA haplogroups, I can see that you don’t know much. J1 certainly didn’t originate in Yemen. J1 reaches highest diversity in the area between Eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus and Western Iran as well as the oldest sample being from Palaeolithic Georgia. This all clearly points towards a CHG origin. J1 only migrated south into the Levant during the Chalcolithic or Early Bronze Age where it was then absorbed by Porto-Semites and expanded south with them. Even based on aDNA we see that J1 only pops up during that timeframe (and after) in the Levant.
J-Z1842 was found in Kura-Araxes samples from Dagestan, way before any Arabs. I already told you this but you seem to have trouble understanding. You’ll probably still end up writing nonsense on how somehow the CHG J1 samples are Arabs from Yemen.

ShpataEMadhe
07-09-19, 16:07
You should really read up on Y-DNA haplogroups, I can see that you don’t know much. J1 certainly didn’t originate in Yemen. J1 reaches highest diversity in the area between Eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus and Western Iran as well as the oldest sample being from Palaeolithic Georgia. This all clearly points towards a CHG origin. J1 only migrated south into the Levant during the Chalcolithic or Early Bronze Age where it was then absorbed by Porto-Semites and expanded south with them. Even based on aDNA we see that J1 only pops up during that timeframe (and after) in the Levant.
J-Z1842 was found in Kura-Araxes samples from Dagestan, way before any Arabs. I already told you this but you seem to have trouble understanding. You’ll probably still end up writing nonsense on how somehow the CHG J1 samples are Arabs from Yemen.

Ok but according to you arabs (who are mostly j1 today) did not expand their genetics beyond their land? Really? They somehow managed to change religion and most notable and extreme, the language of so many different lands and did this all peacefully whilst entering foreign land? The real world isn't fairy tales and princesses. The tax they imposed was on purpose so the poor couldn't afford to have families and give up their women to the Muslims who could have multiple. When you have the weapons and the wealth, you can take as many women as you please

Here is what they were doing from the start with muhammad, he had 13 wives+:

"Rayhana was originally a member of the Banu Nadir tribe who married a man from the Banu Qurayza. After the Banu Qurayza were defeated by the armies of Muhammad in the Siege of the Banu Qurayza neighborhood, Rayhana was among those enslaved, while the men were executed."

J1 in North East Africa has been proven to be linked to arabs from yemen/Saudi, if you could explain to me how mutations of haplogroups happen maybe that would explain some different j1 sub clades in the middle east and south europe

Kelmendasi
07-09-19, 16:14
Ok but according to you arabs (who are mostly j1 today) did not expand their genetics beyond their land? Really? They somehow managed to change religion and most notable and extreme, the language of so many different lands and did this all peacefully whilst entering foreign land? The real world isn't fairy tales and princesses. The tax they imposed was on purpose so the poor couldn't afford to have families and give up their women to the Muslims who could have multiple. When you have the weapons and the wealth, you can take as many women as you please

Here is what they were doing from the start with muhammad, he had 13 wives+:

"Rayhana was originally a member of the Banu Nadir tribe who married a man from the Banu Qurayza. After the Banu Qurayza were defeated by the armies of Muhammad in the Siege of the Banu Qurayza neighborhood, Rayhana was among those enslaved, while the men were executed."

J1 in North East Africa has been proven to be linked to arabs from yemen/Saudi, if you could explain to me how mutations of haplogroups happen maybe that would explain some different j1 sub clades in the middle east and south europe
Sure they spread their genetics, but not in the areas you think they did. Arabic genetic input is very rare in places like Anatolia, the Caucasus and Balkans. In some of those regions it's practically nonexistent. They mainly spread their influence around the areas of North Africa, the Arabian peninsula, Levant and areas of Mesopotamia. Read the J1 Eupedia article, and other haplogroup articles.

ShpataEMadhe
08-09-19, 17:06
Sure they spread their genetics, but not in the areas you think they did. Arabic genetic input is very rare in places like Anatolia, the Caucasus and Balkans. In some of those regions it's practically nonexistent. They mainly spread their influence around the areas of North Africa, the Arabian peninsula, Levant and areas of Mesopotamia. Read the J1 Eupedia article, and other haplogroup articles.
Why would they only spread their genes in the East and Spain/portugal but not in the middle East? I cannot take that logic seriously when you look at history, especially considering that middle east was closer to the Arab tribes. So if arabs did not spread j1 into Middle East what did they spread because they spread something

Why do places like Syria, Iran and Azerbaijan have huge amounts of j1? (also Turkey, Armenia, dagestan etc). Do you know the history of the Arab conquests or not?
Yes sure some j1 would be not from conquest, but only a few. You will say that j1 would have also come from Jews but have Jews been confirmed to have had j1 1500 years ago or did they have a different majority before arab conquest? What is the original Jewish haplogroup?

Also ottoman were not turkic, where is your proof for this? They had arab names and used the Arab language, maybe they had some turkic mothers in their ancestral line.

"words of foreign origin heavily outnumbered native Turkish words, with Arabic and Persian vocabulary accounting for up to 88% of the Ottoman vocabulary"

The ottoman (osman/uthman) were continuing the conquests from their ancestors but now into Europe, they were mixed with iranians because arabs had conquered that land a long time ago

"By 651, most of the urban centers in Iranian lands, with the notable exception of the Caspian provinces (Tabaristan) and Transoxiana, had come under the domination of the Arab armies. Many localities fought against the invaders; ultimately, none were successful. In fact, although Arabs had established hegemony over most of the country, many cities rose in rebellion by killing the Arab governor or attacking their garrisons. Eventually, military reinforcements quashed the insurgency and imposed Islamic control. The violent subjugation of Bukhara is a case in point: conversion to Islam was gradual, partially as the result of this violent resistance; however, Zoroastrian scriptures were burnt and many priests were executed. However, the Persians began to reassert themselves by maintaining Persian language and culture. Islam would become the dominant religion late in the Middle Ages."

Please use some common sense here and learn from written history, every single article says that early arabs killed men and kept several women as slaves. All you have to identity is which haplogroups they spread

Kelmendasi
08-09-19, 17:44
Why would they only spread their genes in the East and Spain/portugal but not in the middle East? I cannot take that logic seriously when you look at history, especially considering that middle east was closer to the Arab tribes. So if arabs did not spread j1 into Middle East what did they spread because they spread something

Why do places like Syria, Iran and Azerbaijan have huge amounts of j1? (also Turkey, Armenia, dagestan etc). Do you know the history of the Arab conquests or not?
Yes sure some j1 would be not from conquest, but only a few. You will say that j1 would have also come from Jews but have Jews been confirmed to have had j1 1500 years ago or did they have a different majority before arab conquest? What is the original Jewish haplogroup?

Also ottoman were not turkic, where is your proof for this? They had arab names and used the Arab language, maybe they had some turkic mothers in their ancestral line.

"words of foreign origin heavily outnumbered native Turkish words, with Arabic and Persian vocabulary accounting for up to 88% of the Ottoman vocabulary"

The ottoman (osman/uthman) were continuing the conquests from their ancestors but now into Europe, they were mixed with iranians because arabs had conquered that land a long time ago

"By 651, most of the urban centers in Iranian lands, with the notable exception of the Caspian provinces (Tabaristan) and Transoxiana, had come under the domination of the Arab armies. Many localities fought against the invaders; ultimately, none were successful. In fact, although Arabs had established hegemony over most of the country, many cities rose in rebellion by killing the Arab governor or attacking their garrisons. Eventually, military reinforcements quashed the insurgency and imposed Islamic control. The violent subjugation of Bukhara is a case in point: conversion to Islam was gradual, partially as the result of this violent resistance; however, Zoroastrian scriptures were burnt and many priests were executed. However, the Persians began to reassert themselves by maintaining Persian language and culture. Islam would become the dominant religion late in the Middle Ages."

Please use some common sense here and learn from written history, every single article says that early arabs killed men and kept several women as slaves. All you have to identity is which haplogroups they spread
I have explained things to you very clearly but you still choose to carry on being stubborn and ignorant. Who even mentioned Spain and Portugal? Please stop living in this little fantasy of yours where you just dream things up. I clearly said they spread their influence across the MENA region (Levant, Mesopotamia, Arabian Peninsula and North Africa). I have explained how Caucasian J1 has nothing to do with that of the Arabs and other Semitic speakers, but you'll still carry typing up your fantasies on how local CHG clades are in fact of Arab origin. The Ottomans weren't Arabs but Turks, this is basic knowledge, having Arabs names means nothing. It's also highly likely that they were R-Z93 based on the testing of living descendants.

Please read an article on haplogroups before you type up pure BS that makes no sense, learn how to differentiate subclades.

ShpataEMadhe
10-09-19, 01:02
I have explained things to you very clearly but you still choose to carry on being stubborn and ignorant. Who even mentioned Spain and Portugal? Please stop living in this little fantasy of yours where you just dream things up. I clearly said they spread their influence across the MENA region (Levant, Mesopotamia, Arabian Peninsula and North Africa). I have explained how Caucasian J1 has nothing to do with that of the Arabs and other Semitic speakers, but you'll still carry typing up your fantasies on how local CHG clades are in fact of Arab origin. The Ottomans weren't Arabs but Turks, this is basic knowledge, having Arabs names means nothing. It's also highly likely that they were R-Z93 based on the testing of living descendants.
Please read an article on haplogroups before you type up pure BS that makes no sense, learn how to differentiate subclades.
https://forebears.io/surnames/othman
https://forebears.io/surnames/uthman
https://forebears.io/surnames/osman

There is zero proof that ottoman were turkic, the leader was definitely of arab origin. They came from regions which arabs had destroyed and conquered long ago and their armies always consisted of "volunteers", some of which obviously wouldn't have been arabs, especially later on. Maybe read some history before saying I am not making sense. History states that early arabs killed men and kept women as slaves, a lot of them.

Here is what Iranians think about that period since they know more about this than we do:

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Persian-people-still-hold-a-grudge-over-the-Arab-conquest-when-Persian-empire-conquered-other-places-including-Arab-lands

https://www.quora.com/What-do-Iranians-think-of-Omar-Second-Caliph

So since you are an expert in this field, if you can find which haplogroup sub clades the early arabs forced into the Iranian people (just as an example) that would be great
Bear in mind that "Islam" was something that was building up for centuries for arabs who felt discriminated and humiliated so they found an out to unleash onto those around them, I am sure you are clever enough to know that man made religion has nothing to do with god, it is politics.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-17ebc3b0b0eeccbd164594a6ab7f2d6d-c

Kelmendasi
10-09-19, 15:17
https://forebears.io/surnames/othman
https://forebears.io/surnames/uthman
https://forebears.io/surnames/osman

There is zero proof that ottoman were turkic, the leader was definitely of arab origin. They came from regions which arabs had destroyed and conquered long ago and their armies always consisted of "volunteers", some of which obviously wouldn't have been arabs, especially later on. Maybe read some history before saying I am not making sense. History states that early arabs killed men and kept women as slaves, a lot of them.

Here is what Iranians think about that period since they know more about this than we do:

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Persian-people-still-hold-a-grudge-over-the-Arab-conquest-when-Persian-empire-conquered-other-places-including-Arab-lands

https://www.quora.com/What-do-Iranians-think-of-Omar-Second-Caliph

So since you are an expert in this field, if you can find which haplogroup sub clades the early arabs forced into the Iranian people (just as an example) that would be great
Bear in mind that "Islam" was something that was building up for centuries for arabs who felt discriminated and humiliated so they found an out to unleash onto those around them, I am sure you are clever enough to know that man made religion has nothing to do with god, it is politics.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-17ebc3b0b0eeccbd164594a6ab7f2d6d-c
Lol are you seriously using Forbears.io as a source? There is no credible historian or academic that believes the Ottoman dynasty was Arabic in origin, it has been proven that they were Turks so I don't know what's the point in discussing this. They came from Central Asia and were Turkic speakers originally adhering to Tengrism and not Islam, nothing to do with Arabs. You really think having names of Arabic origin makes them Arabs? By this logic most Albanians are of Asian origin and most of the medieval nobility was either of Greek or Slavic origin, it makes no sense. Ethnicities and names don't always go hand in hand. I think he should also know that Arabic wasn't all that important of a language in the Ottoman Empire. Arabic was only really used a language for Islamic studies, Ottoman Turkish was the official language. Plus Persian was more widely used in the Empire than Arabic.
You have an obsession with Arabs.

The founder of the dynasty was Osman and his father, according to oral tradition, was a Turk by the name of Ertugrul (a Turkic name btw) who was the leader of the Kayi tribe. The Kayi were an Oghuz tribe from Iran that migrated west into Anatolia in order to escape the Mongols. In Anatolia they entered the service of the Seljuks (a Turkic state btw). Originally the Oghuz were from the area around the Altai mountain range (around Kazakhstan, Mongolia etc). Nothing Arabic here.

I'm not going to spoonfeed you everything, if you want to find out about something do some proper research. I understand that Islam (like other religions) is man made, but I don't see what this has to do with the discussion.

Ownstyler
10-09-19, 20:30
Why do places like Syria, Iran and Azerbaijan have huge amounts of j1? (also Turkey, Armenia, dagestan etc).

Several >4000 year old samples from Central Asia (Turkmenistan) were found just recently by this study (https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/vagheesh/files/eaat7487.full_.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3ZmxpEerou5LwNqBfEmz xzBzVncOwbRpRPIZMeTC-j559m5lSL6ttgXC0). See if you can read it. But be careful: it is actual science.

ShpataEMadhe
11-09-19, 04:11
Lol are you seriously using Forbears.io as a source? There is no credible historian or academic that believes the Ottoman dynasty was Arabic in origin, it has been proven that they were Turks so I don't know what's the point in discussing this. They came from Central Asia and were Turkic speakers originally adhering to Tengrism and not Islam, nothing to do with Arabs. You really think having names of Arabic origin makes them Arabs? By this logic most Albanians are of Asian origin and most of the medieval nobility was either of Greek or Slavic origin, it makes no sense. Ethnicities and names don't always go hand in hand. I think he should also know that Arabic wasn't all that important of a language in the Ottoman Empire. Arabic was only really used a language for Islamic studies, Ottoman Turkish was the official language. Plus Persian was more widely used in the Empire than Arabic.
You have an obsession with Arabs.
The founder of the dynasty was Osman and his father, according to oral tradition, was a Turk by the name of Ertugrul (a Turkic name btw) who was the leader of the Kayi tribe. The Kayi were an Oghuz tribe from Iran that migrated west into Anatolia in order to escape the Mongols. In Anatolia they entered the service of the Seljuks (a Turkic state btw). Originally the Oghuz were from the area around the Altai mountain range (around Kazakhstan, Mongolia etc). Nothing Arabic here.
I'm not going to spoonfeed you everything, if you want to find out about something do some proper research. I understand that Islam (like other religions) is man made, but I don't see what this has to do with the discussion.

Why do you keep making things up, there is zero proof that osman was turkic.

"According to Ottoman tradition, Osman I, founder of Ottoman Empire, was descended from the Kayı tribe.[1][2][3][4] This claim has, however, been called into serious question by many modern historians. The only evidence for the Ottomans' Kayı descent came from genealogies written during the fifteenth century, more than a hundred years after the life of Osman. More significantly, the earliest genealogies written by the Ottomans did not include any reference to Kayı descent at all, indicating that it was fabricated at a later date."

They were from a region that arabs had previously devastated and fully conquered for hundreds of years. The osmans spoke Arabic and Persian, quit lying about them speaking Turkish I already gave you proof of this. Using common logic this implies arab fathers and Persian "mothers", something that would have been happening during and after the conquest of Iran.

As for mongols, they hated islam so that completely rules out turkish even being part mongol. The only (tiny amount) mongol dna you'll find there is from the few peaceful ones from byzantine or before and more from these:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Anatolia

The osmans cared about tengrism yet inflicted islam upon Europe by the sword? Please check your logic. Let's see, which tribes were spreading Islam before? Which tribes wanted to break into byzantine before? As for surnames, of course they matter, MOST surnames are proof of an ancestral line, at least those who aren't stupidly religious. I haven't seen too many albanians with Asian, Greek or Slavic surnames. Those that have them may have had an ancestor from those regions at one point, also surnames tend to change slightly when in different languages/cultures for long period of time

But I am not here to speak about that, I want you, the expert, to find which haplogroup sub clades the arabs added to Iran, Syria after 650, that sort of region.

Kelmendasi
11-09-19, 16:16
Why do you keep making things up, there is zero proof that osman was turkic.

"According to Ottoman tradition, Osman I, founder of Ottoman Empire, was descended from the Kayı tribe.[1][2][3][4] This claim has, however, been called into serious question by many modern historians. The only evidence for the Ottomans' Kayı descent came from genealogies written during the fifteenth century, more than a hundred years after the life of Osman. More significantly, the earliest genealogies written by the Ottomans did not include any reference to Kayı descent at all, indicating that it was fabricated at a later date."

They were from a region that arabs had previously devastated and fully conquered for hundreds of years. The osmans spoke Arabic and Persian, quit lying about them speaking Turkish I already gave you proof of this. Using common logic this implies arab fathers and Persian "mothers", something that would have been happening during and after the conquest of Iran.

As for mongols, they hated islam so that completely rules out turkish even being part mongol. The only (tiny amount) mongol dna you'll find there is from the few peaceful ones from byzantine or before and more from these:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Anatolia

The osmans cared about tengrism yet inflicted islam upon Europe by the sword? Please check your logic. Let's see, which tribes were spreading Islam before? Which tribes wanted to break into byzantine before? As for surnames, of course they matter, MOST surnames are proof of an ancestral line, at least those who aren't stupidly religious. I haven't seen too many albanians with Asian, Greek or Slavic surnames. Those that have them may have had an ancestor from those regions at one point, also surnames tend to change slightly when in different languages/cultures for long period of time

But I am not here to speak about that, I want you, the expert, to find which haplogroup sub clades the arabs added to Iran, Syria after 650, that sort of region.
You know what? Arguing with you is pointless, you are clearly far too deluded and ignorant to be reasoned with. I have been telling you facts that have been proven by every credible and reliable historian but you continue to peddle your borderline fantastical beliefs. You remind me of those extreme Serbs that like to claim that Albanians are Medieval arrivals from the Caucasus and that the Serbs are the true Illyrians, despite every single fact being against that. Anyways, carry on believing your fantasies which are based on hard study on sites like Forbears.io and Quora.

Ownstyler
11-09-19, 21:39
But I am not here to speak about that, I want you, the expert, to find which haplogroup sub clades the arabs added to Iran, Syria after 650, that sort of region.

Don't change the topic. You said J1 in Central Asia and Caucasus is from Arab Muslims. I showed you that it has been found there from 4000 years ago. What do you say now?

ShpataEMadhe
12-09-19, 14:44
You know what? Arguing with you is pointless, you are clearly far too deluded and ignorant to be reasoned with. I have been telling you facts that have been proven by every credible and reliable historian but you continue to peddle your borderline fantastical beliefs. You remind me of those extreme Serbs that like to claim that Albanians are Medieval arrivals from the Caucasus and that the Serbs are the true Illyrians, despite every single fact being against that. Anyways, carry on believing your fantasies which are based on hard study on sites like Forbears.io and Quora.

You clearly haven't read up on Islamic conquest like every reliable historian has, you say osman was mongol when I gave you proof that credible historians disagree, they were not Kayi tribe. Since you are desperate for them to be kayi the kayi tribe was conquered by samanids (persians) which were conquered prior by abbasid caliphate (arabs) so either way the kayi were not real mongols, mongols hated islam which is why they forced the kayi tribe out of the region. Also the ummayad had already pushed into that region prior.

You are too deluded to accept what the arabs did for hundreds of years in North Africa, Spain, portugal and Middle East. Everything is right in front of you but you refuse to accept it. There is nothing fantastical about that period of time, just study it and accept the truth. The osmans were definitely a mix of arab conquered people prior as was the whole point of the Islamic conquest from the start in 640 or whatever. Anyway, here is some history you can read if you want, it's not completely reliable but nothing will be from that period

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://zog.es/Between%2520%2520Two%2520Worlds%2520Kafadar.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj_26utj8vkAhUTiFwKHX6oDvUQFjABegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0lNpSaLoi5Jk3AYiHi77s0&cshid=1568285785736

Serbs cannot be ilyrians when they came much after ilyrians into the region. Why do you keep bringing up albanians in every topic

Again I have to repeat myself, if you can find for me the sub clades arabs imposed into the middle east that would be great, they ruled the region for almost a thousand years

ShpataEMadhe
12-09-19, 15:05
Don't change the topic. You said J1 in Central Asia and Caucasus is from Arab Muslims. I showed you that it has been found there from 4000 years ago. What do you say now?

That doesn't mean it wasn't arabs. They invented Islam in 600 or so but arabs would have obviously been spread out in other areas peacefully prior to that too before religion just like other people were. Are you saying all J1 and other Arab haplogroups found in those regions have been there for 4000 years or just the few you found?

The point I was making is that regions like dagestan have A LOT of J1 and are extremist muslims

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate#/media/File%3AMap_of_expansion_of_Caliphate.svg

Does this map not cover the regions you speak of? Or how about this?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/Abbasids850.png/250px-Abbasids850.png

Is it a coincidence that arabs conquered sicily and it has more j1 than other parts of Italy even after their were expelled? Or let me guess, you will say that this somehow happened 18,000 years ago but they forgot they could go to other parts of italy

Kelmendasi
12-09-19, 18:21
You clearly haven't read up on Islamic conquest like every reliable historian has, you say osman was mongol when I gave you proof that credible historians disagree, they were not Kayi tribe. Since you are desperate for them to be kayi the kayi tribe was conquered by samanids (persians) which were conquered prior by abbasid caliphate (arabs) so either way the kayi were not real mongols, mongols hated islam which is why they forced the kayi tribe out of the region. Also the ummayad had already pushed into that region prior.

You are too deluded to accept what the arabs did for hundreds of years in North Africa, Spain, portugal and Middle East. Everything is right in front of you but you refuse to accept it. There is nothing fantastical about that period of time, just study it and accept the truth. The osmans were definitely a mix of arab conquered people prior as was the whole point of the Islamic conquest from the start in 640 or whatever. Anyway, here is some history you can read if you want, it's not completely reliable but nothing will be from that period

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://zog.es/Between%2520%2520Two%2520Worlds%2520Kafadar.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj_26utj8vkAhUTiFwKHX6oDvUQFjABegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0lNpSaLoi5Jk3AYiHi77s0&cshid=1568285785736

Serbs cannot be ilyrians when they came much after ilyrians into the region. Why do you keep bringing up albanians in every topic

Again I have to repeat myself, if you can find for me the sub clades arabs imposed into the middle east that would be great, they ruled the region for almost a thousand years
Nah I have read up on the Islamic conquest of the Middle East, North Africa and Iberia, I've just read reliable sources and not people's opinions on Quora.com. I didn't say Osman was a Mongol, I don't even know how you even got that (problems with comprehension I guess), he was a Turk (Oghuz to be more specific). The point was that the Ottomans themselves have oral tradition claiming descendance from Turkic tribes, whether or not it was true is irrelevant though it does seem likely that Ertugrul was his father. Btw the Mongols didn't hate Islam, the Mongols were highly tolerant of foreign religions which is why their empire didn't have an official religion. Most of the Mongol hordes actually converted to Islam upon the collapse of the Empire, a people that hate Islam wouldn't do that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YirWYMurJn4, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nGSwgzyiVQ I pray this helps you

Mate, nobody is denying that the Arabs did spread their influence in the areas you mentioned, I even said that they did. You're comprehension is just really bad. Your beliefs are borderline fantastical, you argue that samples dating to over 5,000 years old in the Caucasus and Central Asia are actually Arabs when in reality the early pre-Islamic Arabs weren't all that widespread or advanced and their clades have nothing to do with these ones.

Yes that's precisely it, they can't be Illyrians because they came during the Medieval. Just like how J1 in the Caucasus can't be Arab because it pre-dates them by thousands of years. You're exactly the same as those Serbs, just different delusions.

And I already told you that I'm not going to spoon feed you like a kid, if you want to know something do your own research. Just don't go searching on Quora or Forbears.io

Kelmendasi
12-09-19, 18:32
That doesn't mean it wasn't arabs. They invented Islam in 600 or so but arabs would have obviously been spread out in other areas peacefully prior to that too before religion just like other people were. Are you saying all J1 and other Arab haplogroups found in those regions have been there for 4000 years or just the few you found?

The point I was making is that regions like dagestan have A LOT of J1 and are extremist muslims

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate#/media/File%3AMap_of_expansion_of_Caliphate.svg

Does this map not cover the regions you speak of? Or how about this?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/Abbasids850.png/250px-Abbasids850.png

Is it a coincidence that arabs conquered sicily and it has more j1 than other parts of Italy even after their were expelled? Or let me guess, you will say that this somehow happened 18,000 years ago but they forgot they could go to other parts of italy
The pre-Islamic Arabs weren't all that advanced or widespread, they were mainly a group of Tribes living around the areas of the Levant and Arabian peninsula. So in short they weren't present in Central Asia or the Caucasus during the Bronze Age. These J1 samples belong to clades that are unrelated to the Arab clades and are of CHG or Iranian Hunter Gatherer origin.

The J1 in Dagestan has been explained more than 3 times for you. Their J1 is of native Caucasian origin. The reason why they are extremist is because of religious and cultural influence from the Arabs. Not genetic.

You need to differentiate between subclades, you're referring to J1 as if all of it is the same. The J1 in Italy/Sicily and the Caucasus isn't the same. The J1 in Italy is mainly of Semitic origin, and so was spread by groups such as the Phoenicians, Jews and Arabs. Whilst most of the J1 in places like Anatolia and the Caucasus is local.

This tree, done by an expert on J1 and linguist from another forum, shows the links between J1 and Semitic:
https://i.imgur.com/kgzk3TB.jpg

Angela
12-09-19, 18:54
Discussions like this always falter because people don't define their terms. It leads to "sloppy" argumentation and conclusions.

People in the Levant are not necessarily actually "Arabs" genetically. I'm thinking of people like the Druse or Christian Lebanese. Even the others may have only minor "Arab" ancestry.

Ydna is not always a good barometer for overall genetic similarity, not even when it's been completely and recently been figured out to recently found subclades.

Semites are a different story, if that's what you mean. Phoenicians, close relatives of Christian Lebanese, were Semites. They didn't have an advanced culture. It was more advanced than that of a lot of countries I could name.

We don't need any more vague and incorrect generalizations with undefined terms.

Kelmendasi
12-09-19, 19:31
Discussions like this always falter because people don't define their terms. It leads to "sloppy" argumentation and conclusions.

People in the Levant are not necessarily actually "Arabs" genetically. I'm thinking of people like the Druse or Christian Lebanese. Even the others may have only minor "Arab" ancestry.

Ydna is not always a good barometer for overall genetic similarity, not even when it's been completely and recently been figured out to recently found subclades.

Semites are a different story, if that's what you mean. Phoenicians, close relatives of Christian Lebanese, were Semites. They didn't have an advanced culture. It was more advanced than that of a lot of countries I could name.

We don't need any more vague and incorrect generalizations with undefined terms.
Sorry but what part of the discussion are you referring to?

Ownstyler
13-09-19, 06:42
The point I was making is that

You were saying that J1 in Central Asia was spread by Arab Muslims who raped/pillaged in that region. I showed you that J1 was there at least 4800 ybp. You were wrong.

ShpataEMadhe
16-09-19, 14:55
You were saying that J1 in Central Asia was spread by Arab Muslims who raped/pillaged in that region. I showed you that J1 was there at least 4800 ybp. You were wrong.

Only very few, an extensive test needs to be done in that region to find out more. I didn't say it was just "rape", they had to stay there after killing the men and have several women slaves to themselves and have many kids. There is no way they managed to change the language of North African countries by just "raping women" and running off, they had to settle there and take the women for themselves, take peoples money, their land etc. A lot of people would have fled into the countrysides/mountains/forests

Also, you failed to explain why sicily has more j1 than the rest of Italy, why would it be Jews when you don't even know what their real sub clade was and there is no real history of Jews only settling in sicily, this is wrong. What history tells us is that arabs conquered sicily and it has more j1 than the rest of Italy.

J1 "Jews" you see today are not Jews just like ashkenazi Jews are not real Jews, half of their land today is arabs, they have had problems with them for a very long time
But here I am still waiting for answers from the experts on this website. Which are the sub clades that arabs put into the middle East post 640 since you like to claim ALL J1 was there before 640

ShpataEMadhe
16-09-19, 16:55
Nah I have read up on the Islamic conquest of the Middle East, North Africa and Iberia, I've just read reliable sources and not people's opinions on Quora.com. I didn't say Osman was a Mongol, I don't even know how you even got that (problems with comprehension I guess), he was a Turk (Oghuz to be more specific). The point was that the Ottomans themselves have oral tradition claiming descendance from Turkic tribes, whether or not it was true is irrelevant though it does seem likely that Ertugrul was his father. Btw the Mongols didn't hate Islam, the Mongols were highly tolerant of foreign religions which is why their empire didn't have an official religion. Most of the Mongol hordes actually converted to Islam upon the collapse of the Empire, a people that hate Islam wouldn't do that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YirWYMurJn4, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nGSwgzyiVQ I pray this helps you
Mate, nobody is denying that the Arabs did spread their influence in the areas you mentioned, I even said that they did. You're comprehension is just really bad. Your beliefs are borderline fantastical, you argue that samples dating to over 5,000 years old in the Caucasus and Central Asia are actually Arabs when in reality the early pre-Islamic Arabs weren't all that widespread or advanced and their clades have nothing to do with these ones.
Yes that's precisely it, they can't be Illyrians because they came during the Medieval. Just like how J1 in the Caucasus can't be Arab because it pre-dates them by thousands of years. You're exactly the same as those Serbs, just different delusions.
And I already told you that I'm not going to spoon feed you like a kid, if you want to know something do your own research. Just don't go searching on Quora or Forbears.io

Wrong!

Real genuine Mongols hated islam/arabs, don't know which ones you speak of

"From the head of the Mongol army, anxious to devastate the perfidious nation of the Saracens, with the good-will support of the Christian faith (...) so that you, who are the rulers of the coasts on the other side of the sea, endeavor to deny a refuge for the Infidels, your enemies and ours, by having your subjects diligently patrol the seas.
— Letter from Hulagu to Saint Louis."

Just to help you out:
Perfidious: deceitful, untrustworthy, evil etc
Saracens: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saracen

"Many new-born children in Italy were named after Mongol rulers, including Hulagu: names such as Can Grande ("Great Khan"), Alaone (Hulagu), Argone (Arghun), and Cassano (Ghazan) are recorded."

Also, in terms of south Europe how many mongol looking people do you see? Very very few, almost non existant, you actually see more in finland. How many syrian/iraqi/egyptian/arab looking men do you see in South europe? A whole lot more that's for sure, check out turkey, bulgaria and greece

Kelmendasi
16-09-19, 18:39
Only very few, an extensive test needs to be done in that region to find out more. I didn't say it was just "rape", they had to stay there after killing the men and have several women slaves to themselves and have many kids. There is no way they managed to change the language of North African countries by just "raping women" and running off, they had to settle there and take the women for themselves, take peoples money, their land etc. A lot of people would have fled into the countrysides/mountains/forests

Also, you failed to explain why sicily has more j1 than the rest of Italy, why would it be Jews when you don't even know what their real sub clade was and there is no real history of Jews only settling in sicily, this is wrong. What history tells us is that arabs conquered sicily and it has more j1 than the rest of Italy.

J1 "Jews" you see today are not Jews just like ashkenazi Jews are not real Jews, half of their land today is arabs, they have had problems with them for a very long time
But here I am still waiting for answers from the experts on this website. Which are the sub clades that arabs put into the middle East post 640 since you like to claim ALL J1 was there before 640
We do know what J1 clade is linked to Jews. Jews for the most part belong to downstreams of J-Y3081 (ZS241), with the most distinctly Jewish clade being Y3081>Y3088 (Z18271) which clearly has origin in the Levant. Arabs on the other hand mainly belong to FGC11 which also seems to have origin around the Levant and Mesopotamia.

The majority of J1 in Sicily belongs to J-YSC76, the presence of this group in Sicily is linked to the Phoenicians. There are also Jewish clusters under YSC76 which are present in Southern Italy as well as one likely Arab cluster YSC76>ZS1585. This suggests that most of the J1 in Sicily arrived from Pre-Arabic Semites from the Levant, with the Arabic conquest only attributing a small amount.

The J1 Jews are in fact Jews, not sure what you're on about mate. J-Y3081 has a very clear association with the Central Semitic languages, especially it's NW Semitic descendants. It's certain that Y3081 and it's subclades were present in the Early Hebrews. The fact that many Jews in Europe and the Middle East carry this cluster is evidence that they are in fact descendants of the Hebrews.

The Arabs spread various clades with them, you can't connect it to one haplogroup. Under J1 the clades most connected to Arabs are FGC11>FGC12, there are other minor groups under YSC234 but those don't seem to be linked to the Proto-Arabs. The Arabs also spread clades under E-M34. M34 itself is also probably the "originally" Proto-Semitic haplogroup, with J1 arriving a little later and being absorbed.

Kelmendasi
16-09-19, 18:51
Wrong!

Real genuine Mongols hated islam/arabs, don't know which ones you speak of

"From the head of the Mongol army, anxious to devastate the perfidious nation of the Saracens, with the good-will support of the Christian faith (...) so that you, who are the rulers of the coasts on the other side of the sea, endeavor to deny a refuge for the Infidels, your enemies and ours, by having your subjects diligently patrol the seas.
— Letter from Hulagu to Saint Louis."

Just to help you out:
Perfidious: deceitful, untrustworthy, evil etc
Saracens: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saracen

"Many new-born children in Italy were named after Mongol rulers, including Hulagu: names such as Can Grande ("Great Khan"), Alaone (Hulagu), Argone (Arghun), and Cassano (Ghazan) are recorded."

Also, in terms of south Europe how many mongol looking people do you see? Very very few, almost non existant, you actually see more in finland. How many syrian/iraqi/egyptian/arab looking men do you see in South europe? A whole lot more that's for sure, check out turkey, bulgaria and greece
Man please, just stop

The Mongols didn't hate Islam. You're arguing that they hated Islam because of what a later Mongol (Ilkhanate) ruler said in regards to the Arabs (Saracens), whom he was at war with? Come on now. They didn't hate Islam, this is evident by the fact that 3/4 of the Mongol Khanates embraced Islam and made it the official religion since it was favoured by them. The 3 Khanates which embraced Islam were the Ilkhanate (Hulagu Khan was the Khan of this Khanate, though it was Buddhist under his rule), Golden Horde and Chagatai Khanate. The only Khanate which didn't embrace Islam was the Yuan dynasty.
You should also know that Genghis Khan himself had Muslim advisers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Mongol_Empire#Islam

The Turks and Mongols aren't the same thing. The original Turkic speakers were somewhat East Asian looking, but with their expansion across Western Asia they absorbed and mixed with the local inhabitants, hence the non-Asiatic appearance of many modern day Turks. The Turks and Mongols left no noticeable genetic input in Southern Europe so there isn't any reason to why they would look Asiatic. Arabs/Semites had no genetic input there either. If you really want to prove that there was genetic input from Arabs, show me Y-DNA or auDNA evidence. Don't talk about appearances, something which can often mean nothing (especially in the Balkans).

Ownstyler
16-09-19, 22:45
I didn't say it was just "rape", they had to stay there after killing the men and have several women slaves to themselves and have many kids. There is no way they managed to change the language of North African countries by just "raping women" and running off, they had to settle there and take the women for themselves, take peoples money, their land etc.

How you imagine it was done does not matter. You are wrong for claiming that it happened so much that it transformed the Y-DNA of Central Asian populations, which it did not.


Only very few, an extensive test needs to be done in that region to find out more.

So far, from Ancient DNA:
non-Arab J1 in Central Asia & Caucasus: "very few".
Arabic J1 in Central Asia & Caucasus: ZERO.


And here are some more than "very few" modern J1 NGS results from YFull (Turkey included in Central Asia & Caucasus):




Branch name
Age
Majority-Muslim Central Asia & Caucasus countries/regions
Majority-Arabic countries


J-Y5353 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y5353/)
6300
35
0


J-S11710 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-ZS11710/)
4800
12
0


J-S2872 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-ZS2872/)
4800
35
0


J-ZS5658 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-ZS5658/)
4600
14
0








J-FGC4745 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-FGC4745/)
5600
0
48


J-BY74 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-BY74/)
4600
0
24


J-FGC11 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-FGC11/)
4600
8
>1200


J-Z18206
4100
0
32



So, over the last 4500 years, ~93% of Central Asian J1 NGS results have ZERO relatives among the thousands of NGS tested Arabs. Now either bring us dozens & hundreds of Central Asian & Caucasus J1 relating to Arabs in the last 1500 years, or stop the spewing non-sense like a repetitive nazi parrot.

ShpataEMadhe
27-09-19, 19:47
Man please, just stop
The Mongols didn't hate Islam. You're arguing that they hated Islam because of what a later Mongol (Ilkhanate) ruler said in regards to the Arabs (Saracens), whom he was at war with? Come on now. They didn't hate Islam, this is evident by the fact that 3/4 of the Mongol Khanates embraced Islam and made it the official religion since it was favoured by them. The 3 Khanates which embraced Islam were the Ilkhanate (Hulagu Khan was the Khan of this Khanate, though it was Buddhist under his rule), Golden Horde and Chagatai Khanate. The only Khanate which didn't embrace Islam was the Yuan dynasty.
You should also know that Genghis Khan himself had Muslim advisers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Mongol_Empire#Islam
The Turks and Mongols aren't the same thing. The original Turkic speakers were somewhat East Asian looking, but with their expansion across Western Asia they absorbed and mixed with the local inhabitants, hence the non-Asiatic appearance of many modern day Turks. The Turks and Mongols left no noticeable genetic input in Southern Europe so there isn't any reason to why they would look Asiatic. Arabs/Semites had no genetic input there either. If you really want to prove that there was genetic input from Arabs, show me Y-DNA or auDNA evidence. Don't talk about appearances, something which can often mean nothing (especially in the Balkans).

Are you serious right now? Read the quote, it sounds like mongols had a problem with Islam for a long time, someone doesn't just say what the leader of the mongols did out of the blue randomly one day. Also, read this

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine–Mongol_alliance

And yes TURKIC people are probably a mix of middle eastern and mongol but middle East would have had arab input from hundreds of years of complete control and conquest, turks and turcs are not the same thing.

History tells us that invading armies leave genetic input, how much depends on the people, whether they can flee to the suburbs or how tolerant they can be. The romans left genetic input everywhere, arabs left genetic input into all of North Africa and even spain/portugal, there is absolutely NO WAY they didn't leave anything in Middle East, NONE, you cannot be this deluded. We are talking about a time with small populations meaning it was a lot easier to change the dna of a "nation" early on

As for balkans, the slavs left genetic input all the way down to Greece, Bulgaria etc and they weren't even a big empire or massive army. What makes you think the osmans left nothing behind in South Europe with much bigger armies and far more wars, whether you don't think they didn't have Arab father lines like I think you cannot deny genetic input from so many years of conquest, so many men dying, so many people fleeing etc.

For me, most J1, T1a and a few sub clades of e1a/e1b was added to byzantine area from osman conquest, until you can tell me which haplogroups they spread but so far all you have done is deny all input even into middle East from arabs which is complete delusion. And yes I believe south europe would look more "white" today if there was no osman conquest, just not as blonde or ginger like North Europe. There are too many middle eastern looking people in South europe for me to believe the osmans were mongols, they were 100% middle eastern with some Arab father ancestors. Even though mongols had wars in anatolia just look at Turkey today, most of them look like middle eastern people, none look like mongols because mongols time there was short lived whereas osman wasn't

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Anatolia

Anyway, can you give me some numbers for Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Iraq and other Arab league nations. I would be interested to see what their haplogroups are

Kelmendasi
27-09-19, 20:14
Are you serious right now? Read the quote, it sounds like mongols had a problem with Islam for a long time, someone doesn't just say what the leader of the mongols did out of the blue randomly one day. Also, read this

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine–Mongol_alliance

And yes TURKIC people are probably a mix of middle eastern and mongol but middle East would have had arab input from hundreds of years of complete control and conquest, turks and turcs are not the same thing.

History tells us that invading armies leave genetic input, how much depends on the people, whether they can flee to the suburbs or how tolerant they can be. The romans left genetic input everywhere, arabs left genetic input into all of North Africa and even spain/portugal, there is absolutely NO WAY they didn't leave anything in Middle East, NONE, you cannot be this deluded. We are talking about a time with small populations meaning it was a lot easier to change the dna of a "nation" early on

As for balkans, the slavs left genetic input all the way down to Greece, Bulgaria etc and they weren't even a big empire or massive army. What makes you think the osmans left nothing behind in South Europe with much bigger armies and far more wars, whether you don't think they didn't have Arab father lines like I think you cannot deny genetic input from so many years of conquest, so many men dying, so many people fleeing etc.

For me, most J1, T1a and a few sub clades of e1a/e1b was added to byzantine area from osman conquest, until you can tell me which haplogroups they spread but so far all you have done is deny all input even into middle East from arabs which is complete delusion. And yes I believe south europe would look more "white" today if there was no osman conquest, just not as blonde or ginger like North Europe. There are too many middle eastern looking people in South europe for me to believe the osmans were mongols, they were 100% middle eastern with some Arab father ancestors. Even though mongols had wars in anatolia just look at Turkey today, most of them look like middle eastern people, none look like mongols because mongols time there was short lived whereas osman wasn't

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Anatolia

Anyway, can you give me some numbers for Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Iraq and other Arab league nations. I would be interested to see what their haplogroups are
I can't be asked to deal with you. The evidence has been provided for you, if you're smart enough you'll be able to see it.

ShpataEMadhe
29-09-19, 14:39
I can't be asked to deal with you. The evidence has been provided for you, if you're smart enough you'll be able to see it.

Ok.

J2a-m67 is also found in Arab lands so maybe some of that would have been spread with Islamic conquests too

These as well:

J2a1-F3133 is found in Anatolia, Syria, Iran, Central Asia and Saudi Arabia

J2a1-PF5169 is a rare subclade that has been found in Saudi Arabia, Switzerland, southern Germany and England

Kelmendasi
29-09-19, 16:26
Ok.

J2a-m67 is also found in Arab lands so maybe some of that would have been spread with Islamic conquests too

These as well:

J2a1-F3133 is found in Anatolia, Syria, Iran, Central Asia and Saudi Arabia

J2a1-PF5169 is a rare subclade that has been found in Saudi Arabia, Switzerland, southern Germany and England
You do realise that these clades have TMRCAs of over 9,000 years, right?

Create a new thread if you're going to carry on talking about this, this thread has been completely derailed

ShpataEMadhe
02-10-19, 06:50
You do realise that these clades have TMRCAs of over 9,000 years, right?
Create a new thread if you're going to carry on talking about this, this thread has been completely derailed

Have none of these been found in middle east though, like at all? I don't believe that

Also j2b m205 definitely seems from osman conquest, it seems to have broken into cyprus, serbia (in particular close to the borders of Hungary where many wars took place) and bosnia/croatia at a fair percentage and seems lacking elsewhere in Europe. Probably from a few of their many soldiers who were recruited from all sorts of Middle Eastern backgrounds

Kelmendasi
02-10-19, 16:16
Have none of these been found in middle east though, like at all? I don't believe that

Also j2b m205 definitely seems from osman conquest, it seems to have broken into cyprus, serbia (in particular close to the borders of Hungary where many wars took place) and bosnia/croatia at a fair percentage and seems lacking elsewhere in Europe. Probably from a few of their many soldiers who were recruited from all sorts of Middle Eastern backgrounds
Well yes, but it means nothing if they share a TMRCA of over 3,000 years with the Middle Eastern samples. And this is the case for most of the samples.

And how is J-M205 in Europe definitely a result of Ottoman conquest, any evidence to back up your statement? The Serbian J-M205 samples fall under Y22059 for the most part, the connection between this cluster and the Middle Eastern ones is 5,000 years old judging by Yfull. So already your Medieval expansion theory seems very unlikely. As for location, most these Serbs are from Bosnia or Krajina as far as I know. Many of them also seem to have Montenegrin origin from the Krici clan which was originally a Vlach clan. There are also 2 Albanians (from Kosovo and Malesia e Madhe) that are under Y22059 and are distant from the Serbs and other South Slavs, so they don't have any recent relation. Their relation seems to be at least 1,000 years old.

Despite the distant relation between Y22059 and the Middle Eastern clans, we can assume that it arrived to the Balkans from the Middle East based on the distribution of other M205 clades. However, an arrival during the Ottoman conquest makes very little sense. It far more likely that it arrived during the Roman or Byzantine times and that they originally spoke a Central Semitic language (perhaps belonging to the Canaanite branch). They were most probably Latin speaking when they arrived in the Balkans and were then assimilated by locals and then Slavs.

Dema
02-10-19, 22:14
I would advice to ignore this TR0LL ShpataeMadhe, guy has mental issues. Also by getting 5-6 negatives per reply its obvious others are realizing this also.
I have read few of his posts before, its not worth to debate with someone who has such a low knowledge and who is filled with various propagandas and conspiracy theories. He is just confused.

ShpataEMadhe
04-10-19, 21:15
I would advice to ignore this TR0LL ShpataeMadhe, guy has mental issues. Also by getting 5-6 negatives per reply its obvious others are realizing this also.
I have read few of his posts before, its not worth to debate with someone who has such a low knowledge and who is filled with various propagandas and conspiracy theories. He is just confused.

Mental issues as in I want to find out why so many middle eastern looking people in South Europe, ok. Have you ever been to Bulgaria before? Go visit sometime

Are you another one of those deluded people who think the arabs did nothing in the middle east, they just snapped their fingers and magically everyone started speaking the same language. For some dumb ass reason they were only interested in sex when in North Africa and Spain/Portugal according to you.
Read some real history and try to understand what happened in the past

A lot of the "smaller" sub clades you see in South Europe today are from osman conquest, they set up garrisons all over the place

Explain this amount of j1 in Serbs I think, can't read the language but I think it is serbian dna project. Bear in mind that the ratio doesn't make sense for that much J1 to be pre osman conquest because they have only 1% r1b and not enough e1b or j2b to explain the ratio. Not to mention the graph doesn't say which j2b or e1b they have, do you have the full data?

http://i.imgur.com/8p5XcVn.png

Kelmendasi
04-10-19, 22:52
Explain this amount of j1 in Serbs I think, can't read the language but I think it is serbian dna project. Bear in mind that the ratio doesn't make sense for that much J1 to be pre osman conquest because they have only 1% r1b and not enough e1b or j2b to explain the ratio. Not to mention the graph doesn't say which j2b or e1b they have, do you have the full data?

http://i.imgur.com/8p5XcVn.png
If you don't know what it is or what it shows then don't post. The graph shows the Y-DNA percentages of Serbs from Bosnia, it's from 2016 and the sample size is only 97 so it isn't very accurate. More recent results show that Serbs from Bosnia have around 2-3% R1b and even less J1. Serbs as a whole have around 6.5% R1b. Ratios mean little to nothing, stop typing nonsense.

ShpataEMadhe
09-10-19, 15:36
If you don't know what it is or what it shows then don't post. The graph shows the Y-DNA percentages of Serbs from Bosnia, it's from 2016 and the sample size is only 97 so it isn't very accurate. More recent results show that Serbs from Bosnia have around 2-3% R1b and even less J1. Serbs as a whole have around 6.5% R1b. Ratios mean little to nothing, stop typing nonsense.

The j1 ratio is still too high, compare it to people around them with high r1b and low j1. Why would ratio mean nothing and how does data being from 2016 mean it is innacurate? That my friend, is utter nonsense

Kelmendasi
09-10-19, 16:05
The j1 ratio is still too high, compare it to people around them with high r1b and low j1. Why would ratio mean nothing and how does data being from 2016 mean it is innacurate? That my friend, is utter nonsense
Reasoning with you is pointless

Dibran
09-10-19, 20:46
...................

You really know zilch about genetics dude. Please, take a seat and think about all the precious time you wasted. Go get a DNA test. I will laugh if you get J1. Using your stunted logic, you may just commit suicide at the idea. Kelmendasi knows a world more about genetics than you. Its like a high school dropout arguing with a college grad on the importance of education.

Dema
10-10-19, 15:53
Mental issues



Because you were spamming this thread with lots of disinformations and lies about J2-M205.


Also most of stuff that Kelmendasi wrote about J2-M205 are disinformations or simply outdated theories that are discarded these days.

I wont answer to any of you because as its obvious this is J1 section and not J2 section. It would be direct spam and i would ask few of you Albanians that like to write like that to consider your behavior and start to behave more mature.

I opened J2-M205 thread in Eupedia and you are free to write anything there or ask questions, but dont spam J1 thread with J2b out of a sky for no reason.
Or best of all would be if you guys would not mention J2-M205 at all.


@ShpataEmadhe, now please tell me that you are not tested at all?? Also i havent seen your picture in classification thread since you like to comment so much on other people look?

ShpataEMadhe
20-10-19, 13:43
You really know zilch about genetics dude. Please, take a seat and think about all the precious time you wasted. Go get a DNA test. I will laugh if you get J1. Using your stunted logic, you may just commit suicide at the idea. Kelmendasi knows a world more about genetics than you. Its like a high school dropout arguing with a college grad on the importance of education.

Chances of me being J1 are almost impossible since my grandad was blonde

If I was J1 though I definitely wouldn't spread it in albania, I'd have a british or american wife instead since there are a lot more of them left whereas albanian population has been endangered for a very long time

Now stop going off topic and tell me which sub clades the arabs spread into the middle East from 650, since I know zilch about genetics and you know a lot more

ZTD
20-10-19, 14:31
https://tribusalgeriennes.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/25152058_833016163537216_4579788758459640864_n.png

it's more common among Tribal Arabians areas (reaches 90+%) , and less in the coast areas and holy lands in western Arabia because of Hajj (pilgrimage) and people coming from all over the world and some of them stay and don't go back home
here's a picture of an old man his grand Son is carrying the J1-M267 > J-P58 > J-l858 > FGC1696 > FGC1713 Sheikh of "Mutair" tribe
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdgQ9bXWAAEXqo_.jpg



here's the study's paper in English for those interested in reading it
https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/track?uri=urn%3Aaaid%3Ascds%3AUS%3Aca35bf92-6ab6-40ff-8fc5-870696768a94

Kelmendasi
20-10-19, 14:37
Chances of me being J1 are almost impossible since my grandad was blonde
This sums up your level of intelligence and understanding pretty well....

Dibran
20-10-19, 23:17
Chances of me being J1 are almost impossible since my grandad was blonde

If I was J1 though I definitely wouldn't spread it in albania, I'd have a british or american wife instead

Now stop going off topic and tell me which sub clades the arabs spread into the middle East from 650 since I know zilch about genetics and you know a lot more


At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.” ~Billy Madison.

jokes aside, you just proved you are absolutely clueless. Get a DNA test I dare you.

ShpataEMadhe
21-10-19, 17:00
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.” ~Billy Madison.

jokes aside, you just proved you are absolutely clueless. Get a DNA test I dare you.

I'm not a big fan of needles or hospitals so I usually avoid blood tests but I'll get it before I have kids or something like that

Kelmendasi
21-10-19, 17:05
I'm not a big fan of needles or hospitals so I usually avoid blood tests but I'll get it before I have kids or something like that
You're joking aren't you....

DNA tests don't involve needles or hospitals lol, you either spit in a tube or swab the inside of your cheek. Anyways, I don't think you'll ever test, you're too insecure.

ShpataEMadhe
21-10-19, 18:05
You're joking aren't you....

DNA tests don't involve needles or hospitals lol, you either spit in a tube or swab the inside of your cheek. Anyways, I don't think you'll ever test, you're too insecure.

Like I said before I think about having kids. Besides, I don't have any spare cash lying around so unless I rob a bank or start cooking meth the test ain't happening anytime soon

Dibran
21-10-19, 20:17
Like I said before I think about having kids. Besides, I don't have any spare cash lying around so unless I rob a bank or start cooking meth the test ain't happening anytime soon

You must really be poor if you would have to cook meth to afford a 50-80 dollar Y-DNA test. Stop t-rolling and bugger off.

ShpataEMadhe
29-10-19, 23:59
You must really be poor if you would have to cook meth to afford a 50-80 dollar Y-DNA test. Stop t-rolling and bugger off.

That is some poor logic you got there buddy