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ToBeOrNotToBe
03-07-19, 23:24
Paper just got released, hopefully some treats in store - after such a long time waiting for interesting aDNA papers it better be worth it!

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/7/eaax0061
The ancient Mediterranean port city of Ashkelon, identified as “Philistine” during the Iron Age, underwent a marked cultural change between the Late Bronze and the early Iron Age. It has been long debated whether this change was driven by a substantial movement of people, possibly linked to a larger migration of the so-called “Sea Peoples.” Here, we report genome-wide data of 10 Bronze and Iron Age individuals from Ashkelon. We find that the early Iron Age population was genetically distinct due to a European-related admixture. This genetic signal is no longer detectible in the later Iron Age population. Our results support that a migration event occurred during the Bronze to Iron Age transition in Ashkelon but did not leave a long-lasting genetic signature.

BMW
04-07-19, 02:21
Y-DNA hg T?

torzio
04-07-19, 03:53
Y-DNA hg T?

No T-m184.......there is L-m20 though

elghund
04-07-19, 05:16
Looks like a pretty diverse group


Haplogroups (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/7/eaax0061/tab-figures-data)




Analysis
group
Sampled
tissue
Mean
coverage
(fold)
Carbon
date
Archeological
date
Total
sequenced
reads (×106)

Human
DNA (%)
Genetic
sex
mt
Ychr


ASH029.A0101
ASH_LBA
Petrous
0.14
1622–1522
MBIIC–LBII
86.6
6.9
F
H66a



ASH033.A0101
ASH_LBA
Petrous
0.11
1746–1643
MBIIC–LBII
84.8
2
F
N



ASH034.A0101
ASH_LBA
Petrous
0.42
NA
MBIIC–LBII
81.9
13.7
F
U3b1a



ASH066.A0101
ASH_IA1
Petrous
0.18
1371–1129
Iron I–Post Ramses III
10.5
11.0
M
T2c1c
J


ASH067.A0101
ASH_IA1
Petrous
0.17
1379–1131
Iron I–Post Ramses III
10.9
11.2
M
H92
R1


ASH002/3.A0101
ASH_IA1
Petrous
0.08
1378–1134
Iron I–Post Ramses III
26.9
13
F
I1



ASH068.A0101
ASH_IA1
Petrous
0.27
1284–1126
Iron I–Post Ramses III
11.2
17.6
F
T1a1



ASH008.A0101
ASH_IA2
Petrous
0.7
1257–1042
Iron IIA
126.7
17.2
M
H2c
BT


ASH087.A0101
ASH_IA2
Petrous
0.22
NA
Iron IIA
12.8
15.6
M
H4a1c
L


ASH135.A0101
ASH_IA2
Molar
0.09
NA
Iron IIA
13.3
3.9
F
JT

elghund
04-07-19, 05:29
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/advances/5/7/eaax0061/F3.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

Tomenable
04-07-19, 12:18
I uploaded the samples to GEDmatch:

ASH002 - BT4403215
ASH2-3 - JB1709310
ASH003 - CN4862763
ASH8 - JS7388527
ASH29 - RT1944985
ASH33 - TA5202730
ASH34 - QU1303008
ASH066 - ZN1823578
ASH067 - YU8222286
ASH068 - KS9655052
ASH087 - TS4858801
ASH135 - ZY6893016

Jovialis
04-07-19, 12:41
Some more figures from the study:

https://i.imgur.com/z5GmIO0.png

https://i.imgur.com/At5rCt8.png

Tomenable
04-07-19, 20:50
PCA based on Eurogenes K15 results:

https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

https://i.imgur.com/9ClTvlU.png

^^^ Here their K15 results:


ASH002
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 13.27
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 7.02
West_Med 15.92
West_Asian 22.27
East_Med 41.30
Red_Sea 0
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 0
Sub-Saharan 0.23


ASH2-3
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 12.10
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 16.76
West_Asian 21.66
East_Med 35.91
Red_Sea 12.67
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0.31
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 0.51
Sub-Saharan 0.07


ASH003
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 11.25
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 17.99
West_Asian 18.67
East_Med 34.30
Red_Sea 16.29
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 0
Amerindian 1.51
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 0
Sub-Saharan 0


ASH33
Population
North_Sea 2.95
Atlantic 1.35
Baltic 1.53
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 9.65
West_Asian 14.92
East_Med 51.65
Red_Sea 14.05
South_Asian 1.15
Southeast_Asian 0.38
Siberian 0.38
Amerindian 0.27
Oceanian 1.71
Northeast_African 0
Sub-Saharan 0


ASH34
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 4.63
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 11.88
West_Asian 19.90
East_Med 50.35
Red_Sea 13.24
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 0
Sub-Saharan 0


ASH066
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 10.62
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 12.19
West_Asian 11.12
East_Med 43.27
Red_Sea 15.69
South_Asian 2.56
Southeast_Asian 0.56
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0.34
Northeast_African 3.64
Sub-Saharan 0


ASH29
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 10.87
Baltic 0.87
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 6.16
West_Asian 17.85
East_Med 50.50
Red_Sea 12.65
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0.15
Northeast_African 0.93
Sub-Saharan 0


ASH8
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 0.56
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 7.42
West_Asian 19.82
East_Med 51.96
Red_Sea 16.57
South_Asian 1.22
Southeast_Asian 0.07
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 2.40
Sub-Saharan 0


ASH068
North_Sea 8.10
Atlantic 8.08
Baltic 2.82
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 30.25
West_Asian 15.68
East_Med 27.10
Red_Sea 6.89
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0.13
Siberian 0.06
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 0
Sub-Saharan 0.89


ASH067
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 10.07
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 21.17
West_Asian 18.85
East_Med 46.19
Red_Sea 3.01
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0.71
Northeast_African 0
Sub-Saharan 0


ASH087
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 0
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 17.21
West_Asian 13.54
East_Med 46.88
Red_Sea 18.11
South_Asian 0.86
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 1.67
Amerindian 0.68
Oceanian 0.14
Northeast_African 0.91
Sub-Saharan 0


ASH135
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 0
Baltic 0.92
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 21.06
West_Asian 16.03
East_Med 41.78
Red_Sea 14.91
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 1.49
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 3.81
Sub-Saharan 0

Cato
04-07-19, 20:57
ASH068 seems Sicilian-like

Utilizzando Tapatalk

Tomenable
04-07-19, 20:58
ASH068 seems Sicilian-like

And ASH002 is within Ashkenazi range. I know one AJ guy who plots very close to ASH002 in that K15 PCA.

=====

I think that only these three Philistines were siimilar to European populations (if not counting Cypriots and Jews):

ASH002 - similar to Southern Italians
ASH067 - similar to Insular Greeks
ASH068 - similar to Southern Italians

ASH066 apparently also had high % of WHG but what would be a good model with Euro admix for him in Global25?

Joey37
04-07-19, 23:07
ASH067 with R1 is likely to be R1b-Z2103 or R1a-Z93.

CrazyDonkey
05-07-19, 00:36
https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-ancient-dna-solves-age-old-mystery-of-philistine-origin-1.7433390


It is difficult to pinpoint the exact origin of this part of the early Philistine genome because we don’t have enough samples of ancient DNA from this period in Europe, Feldman says. But the statistical models run by the geneticists show that the most likely scenario is that these individuals derived around 43 percent of their ancestry from people in Bronze Age Greece, and the rest from the original Levantine population of Ashkelon. Other, less likely models, show similarities with the genome of modern Sardinians or with people from Bronze Age Iberia, the study says.

“In the future, as we get more samples from across the region, we will be able to speak more precisely about the source than we can do now,” says Master, the lead archaeologist on the study. But the genetic modeling, coupled with the archaeological evidence already tips the scales heavily in favor of the Aegean hypothesis.

bigsnake49
05-07-19, 00:41
It looks very similar to Lebanon and Jordan samples of the same period to my own untrained eye. They kind of cluster close to them on the PCAs.

Archetype0ne
05-07-19, 00:58
https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-ancient-dna-solves-age-old-mystery-of-philistine-origin-1.7433390

Seems likely that whomever the sea peoples were they left a short lived genetic trace in the Levant.
Personally after reading your quote my money is on the sea peoples being remnants of the armies continuing to pillage after the sack of Troy. They had the ships and they were gathered, maybe they decided to continue waring and pillaging whatever was beyond Asia Minor going all the way to Egypt.

davef
05-07-19, 05:52
PCA based on Eurogenes K15 results:

https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

https://i.imgur.com/9ClTvlU.png

^^^ Here their K15 results:


ASH002
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 13.27
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 7.02
West_Med 15.92
West_Asian 22.27
East_Med 41.30
Red_Sea 0
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 0
Sub-Saharan 0.23


ASH2-3
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 12.10
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 16.76
West_Asian 21.66
East_Med 35.91
Red_Sea 12.67
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0.31
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 0.51
Sub-Saharan 0.07


ASH003
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 11.25
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 17.99
West_Asian 18.67
East_Med 34.30
Red_Sea 16.29
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 0
Amerindian 1.51
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 0
Sub-Saharan 0


ASH33
Population
North_Sea 2.95
Atlantic 1.35
Baltic 1.53
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 9.65
West_Asian 14.92
East_Med 51.65
Red_Sea 14.05
South_Asian 1.15
Southeast_Asian 0.38
Siberian 0.38
Amerindian 0.27
Oceanian 1.71
Northeast_African 0
Sub-Saharan 0


ASH34
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 4.63
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 11.88
West_Asian 19.90
East_Med 50.35
Red_Sea 13.24
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 0
Sub-Saharan 0


ASH066
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 10.62
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 12.19
West_Asian 11.12
East_Med 43.27
Red_Sea 15.69
South_Asian 2.56
Southeast_Asian 0.56
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0.34
Northeast_African 3.64
Sub-Saharan 0


ASH29
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 10.87
Baltic 0.87
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 6.16
West_Asian 17.85
East_Med 50.50
Red_Sea 12.65
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0.15
Northeast_African 0.93
Sub-Saharan 0


ASH8
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 0.56
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 7.42
West_Asian 19.82
East_Med 51.96
Red_Sea 16.57
South_Asian 1.22
Southeast_Asian 0.07
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 2.40
Sub-Saharan 0


ASH068
North_Sea 8.10
Atlantic 8.08
Baltic 2.82
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 30.25
West_Asian 15.68
East_Med 27.10
Red_Sea 6.89
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0.13
Siberian 0.06
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 0
Sub-Saharan 0.89


ASH067
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 10.07
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 21.17
West_Asian 18.85
East_Med 46.19
Red_Sea 3.01
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0.71
Northeast_African 0
Sub-Saharan 0


ASH087
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 0
Baltic 0
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 17.21
West_Asian 13.54
East_Med 46.88
Red_Sea 18.11
South_Asian 0.86
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 1.67
Amerindian 0.68
Oceanian 0.14
Northeast_African 0.91
Sub-Saharan 0


ASH135
North_Sea 0
Atlantic 0
Baltic 0.92
Eastern_Euro 0
West_Med 21.06
West_Asian 16.03
East_Med 41.78
Red_Sea 14.91
South_Asian 0
Southeast_Asian 1.49
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0
Oceanian 0
Northeast_African 3.81
Sub-Saharan 0
Well it looks like some of these are 1/2 Mycenaean (like) 1/2 Levant so perhaps a Mycenaean population mixed heavily with the locals. Im willing to bet these greek settlers are the source of the Southern European ancestry in European Jews

Iseid041
05-07-19, 08:42
Well it looks like some of these are 1/2 Mycenaean (like) 1/2 Levant so perhaps a Mycenaean population mixed heavily with the locals. Im willing to bet these greek settlers are the source of the Southern European ancestry in European JewsThe paper states that the Philistines dissolved into the local population without a trace which indicates European Jews acquired this source outside the Levant.

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Angela
06-07-19, 15:05
The paper states that the Philistines dissolved into the local population without a trace which indicates European Jews acquired this source outside the Levant.

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I haven't yet had time to read the whole paper. However, if they had no "Judean" sample of, say, the pre-Maccabean period, how could we know that with any certainty? The Samaritans and Jews were bitter enemies not only because of religion but because the Jews believed the Samaritans had "foreign" ancestry. The Canaanites and later Phoenicians were not necessarily exactly the same as the Jews.

Angela
06-07-19, 16:08
Everything I know of the Sea Peoples indicates that they were "groups" of people, not necessarily from one place. Plus, as they moved south and east they would change genetically.

One of those samples looks extremely Sardinian to me, and they have been connected to the Sea Peoples. Others could have come from southern Italy. Others could have been from the Aegean. I honestly don't know if at that period there's was a whole bunch of difference between these people.

The really intriguing bit is the yDna "L".

I'll really read the paper in depth later and compare to my books on the Sea Peoples.

I1a3_Young
06-07-19, 17:09
It looks to me like a southern euro migration which formed the Philistine culture. This washed out into the Levantine pop after a few hundred years. Were they fleeing the destruction in southern Europe or were they the people causing the destruction?

There was a R1b1b in the mix, need to look more closely at possible subgroups.

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Iseid041
07-07-19, 01:45
I haven't yet had time to read the whole paper. However, if they had no "Judean" sample of, say, the pre-Maccabean period, how could we know that with any certainty? The Samaritans and Jews were bitter enemies not only because of religion but because the Jews believed the Samaritans had "foreign" ancestry. The Canaanites and later Phoenicians were not necessarily exactly the same as the Jews.
If you look at an ancient map of the Philistines and Judea, Ashkelon is surrounded by Judea. Maybe those Levantine Philistines samples are not Jewish but where did they come from? Either Judea or the northern kingdom of Israel. So basically they would be identical to Jews of that period.

My thinking is there were two possibilities for Jews to obtain South Euro admixture in the Levant, the first would be through the Philistines. This would affect the south Levant only and not Lebanon. But this paper says this is not it the case.

The second is by Alexander the great and the later Greeks after the 4th century BC. But wouldn't that affect Lebanon and western Jordan as well? We are not seeing Greek admixture in Lebanon so it is unlikely that it did for the Jews.



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Angela
08-07-19, 16:25
If you look at an ancient map of the Philistines and Judea, Ashkelon is surrounded by Judea. Maybe those Levantine Philistines samples are not Jewish but where did they come from? Either Judea or the northern kingdom of Israel. So basically they would be identical to Jews of that period.

My thinking is there were two possibilities for Jews to obtain South Euro admixture in the Levant, the first would be through the Philistines. This would affect the south Levant only and not Lebanon. But this paper says this is not it the case.

The second is by Alexander the great and the later Greeks after the 4th century BC. But wouldn't that affect Lebanon and western Jordan as well? We are not seeing Greek admixture in Lebanon so it is unlikely that it did for the Jews.



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I've been thinking about your post.

I had always thought it was a distinct possibility that during the Hellenistic period there was some admixture with the inhabitants of the "Greek" towns; perhaps in the taking of "Greek" wives, for example. That a Judean male would convert is much less plausible, imo. Part of Greek and Roman culture was going to the baths and walking around completely naked. The Jews were circumcised, and the Greeks and Romans considered it an abomination. I doubt they had surgery then to "correct" it. However, you're right: why don't the Lebanese, for, example, or the inland Syrians show this "European" signal?

That's why I always thought that if it did enter western Jewry before the Roman Empire period, it might have been the Philistines.

Now, the authors are basing their conclusion (that there was no lasting "European" impact on Jewish genetics from the Philistines) on the fact that the percentage went down from Iron Age I to Iron age too.

I think we have to remember, however, that they tested way over a hundred samples from that cemetery, and could only get dna from ten of them. So, we may be getting a slightly skewed view. Or, the situation may have been different elsewhere, in one of the other cities. I don't care either way, but I think it's a possibility.

There are a few signs of the Philistines in northern Israel, but it's likely just from mercenaries. Plus, the ten northern tribes were carted off by the Assyrians, and disappeared from history.
"In the western part of the Jezreel Valley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jezreel_Valley), 23 of the 26 Iron Age I sites (12th to 10th centuries BCE) yielded typical Philistine pottery. These sites include Tel Megiddo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Megiddo), Tel Yokneam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Yokneam), Tel Qiri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Qiri), Afula (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afula), Tel Qashish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Qashish), Be'er Tiveon, Hurvat Hazin, Tel Risim, Tel Re'ala, Hurvat Tzror, Tel Sham, Midrakh Oz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrakh_Oz) and Tel Zariq. Scholars have attributed the presence of Philistine pottery in northern Israel to their role as mercenaries for the Egyptians during their military administration of the land in the 12th century BCE. This presence may also indicate further expansion of the Philistines to the valley during the 11th century BCE, or their trade with the Israelites (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites). There are biblical references to Philistines in the valley during the times of the judges. The quantity of Philistine pottery within these sites are still quite small, which means that even if the Philistines did settle the valley they were a minority that blended within the Canaanite population during the 12th century BCE. The Philistines seem to have been present in the southern valley during the 11th century, which may relate to the biblical account of their victory at the Battle of Gilboa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gilboa).[55] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines#cite_note-60)"


Given some of the following it's perhaps not unusual that we are finding mixed "Southern European" like and Levantine like samples.

"The Torah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah) does not record the Philistines as one of the nations to be displaced from Canaan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan). In Genesis 15:18-21 (https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0115.htm#18) the Philistines are absent from the ten nations Abraham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham)'s descendants will displace as well as being absent from the list of nations Moses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses) tells the people they will conquer (Deut 7:1 (https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0507.htm#1), 20:17 (https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0520.htm#17)). God also directed the Israelites (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites) away from the Philistines upon their Exodus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus) from Egypt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt) according to Exodus 13:17 (https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0213.htm#17). In Genesis 21:22-27 (https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0121.htm#22), Abraham agrees to a covenant of kindness with Abimelech (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abimelech), the Philistine king, and his descendants. Abraham's son Isaac (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac)deals with the Philistine king similarly, by concluding a treaty with them in chapter 26 (Genesis 26:28-29 (https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0126.htm#28)).

Judges 13:1 (https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0713.htm#1) tells that the Philistines dominated the Israelites in the times of Samson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson), who fought and killed over a thousand (e.g. Judges 15 (https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0715.htm#1)). According to 1 Samuel 5-6 they even captured the Ark of the Covenant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ark_of_the_Covenant) for a few months.
A few biblical texts, such as the Ark Narrative and stories reflecting the importance of Gath (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gath_(city)), seem to portray Late Iron I and Early Iron II memories.[47] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines#cite_note-52)They are mentioned more than 250 times, the majority in the Deuteronomistic history (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuteronomistic_history), and are depicted as among the arch-enemies of the Israelites, a serious and recurring threat before being subdued by David (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David).[citation needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]
The Bible paints the Philistines as the main enemy of the Israelites (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites) (prior to the rise of the Neo-Assyrian Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Assyrian_Empire) between the 10th century BC and late 7th century BC) with a state of almost perpetual war between the two. The Philistine cities lost their independence to Assyria, and revolts in the following years were all crushed. They were subsequently absorbed into the Neo-Babylonian Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Babylonian_Empire) and the Achaemenid Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire), and disappeared as a distinct ethnic group by the late 5th century BC.[48 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines#cite_note-53)"


In terms of the genetic identity of these particular "Sea Peoples" before their admixture in the various lands they conquered, this is what the authors have to say:

"The best supported one (χ2P = 0.675) infers that ASH_IA1 derivesaround 43% of ancestry from the Greek Bronze Age “Crete_Odigitria_BA” (43.1 ±19.2%) and the rest from the ASH_LBA population. ASH_IA1 could also be modeledwith either the modern “Sardinian” (35.2 ± 17.4%; χ2P = 0.070), the Bronze Age “Iberia_BA” (21.8± 21.1%; χ2P = 0.205), or the Bronze Age “Steppe_MLBA”(15.7 ± 9.1%; χ2P = 0.050) as the second source populationto ASH_LBA. To check whether these results are due to the low coverage ofASH_LBA, we repeated this analysis, but this time, we modeled ASH_IA1 as athree-way mixture of each of the candidate populations, Levant_ChL andIran_ChL. The two latter populations have higher genome coverage and can modelASH_LBA well in combination (table S3). In this analysis, only the modelsincluding “Sardinian,” “Crete_Odigitria_BA,” or “Iberia_BA” as the candidatepopulation provided a good fit (χ2P = 0.715, 49.3 ± 8.5%; χ2P = 0.972, 38.0 ± 22.0%; and χ2P = 0.964, 25.8 ± 9.3%, respectively). Wenote that, because of geographical and temporal sampling gaps, populations thatpotentially contributed the “European-related” admixture in ASH_IA1 could bemissing from the dataset. Therefore, better proxies might be found in thefuture when more data is available. Nonetheless, the tested candidatepopulations from Anatolia, Egypt, and the Levant that did not producewell-fitting models can be excluded as potential sources of the admixtureobserved in ASH_IA1."


I reviewed my books on the Sea Peoples, and there is no mention anywhere of an origin in Iberia for them. However, the Sardinians have often been associated with the Sea Peoples (the Sherden), and so have the people of Crete. The other possibility, and this is highly speculative, is that after Northern Italian like peoples pushed south down the boot of Italy, they might have gone on to Greece as mercenaries, perhaps, unfortunately, having something to do with the end of the palatial civilization. There are certainly numerous artifacts from the Italy of that time in both Greece and the Near East.

We have a dedicated thread to that topic.

Joker
08-07-19, 18:28
Interesting results.

I would suspect a substantial genetic exchange between Philstines and the Israelites, and especially the Judaeans that they lived neck and neck with.
Perhaps the Philistines didn't disappear but like Neanderthals were absorbed into the larger population and their genetic legacy lives on..

This can at least partially explain the decidedly Greek-like genetic cline of Ashkenazi Jews.
On Gedmatch many Ashkenazim light up "east Sicilian" which is strongly Greek admixed, same goes for Abruzzo...

Angela
08-07-19, 20:42
Interesting results.

I would suspect a substantial genetic exchange between Philstines and the Israelites, and especially the Judaeans that they lived neck and neck with.
Perhaps the Philistines didn't disappear but like Neanderthals were absorbed into the larger population and their genetic legacy lives on..

This can at least partially explain the decidedly Greek-like genetic cline of Ashkenazi Jews.
On Gedmatch many Ashkenazim light up "east Sicilian" which is strongly Greek admixed, same goes for Abruzzo...

Same goes for Calabrians. My husband has ancestry from Naples, but also from towns in Calabria built almost on top of Greek ruins and he usually gets Ashkenazi Jews in his top four matches.

Ownstyler
08-07-19, 21:50
Being on the same spot in PCA doesn't mean shared ancestry. One can be half-French and half-Iranian and be close to Greeks on PCA, which does not mean Greek ancestry.

Angela
09-07-19, 00:07
I'm aware. I don't know to which PCA you're referring.

In THIS situation, we're talking about Magna Graecia, are we not? Greater Greece? It was settled by Greeks, the people were Greek Orthodox in religion, and they spoke Greek all the way through the Byzantine Era. In my husband's case, his ancestors spoke Greek until about three hundred years ago. In autosomal analysis my husband, like a lot of Southern Italians/Sicilians, gets Ashkenazi Jews and Greeks in his gedmatch lists. That he and other Italians, especially Southern Italians/Sicilians, have Greek Bronze and Iron Age ancestry is indisputable, although I'm not saying that's their only ancestry.

It's been known for a long time that Ashkenazi Jews have some percentage of East European (6% perhaps?), but a lot more Southern European ancestry than that. They also have "farmer" ancestry, both Anatolian and Iranian, as do Southern Europeans. So, the relationship that shows up in gedmatch results is not surprising at all. Jews have Southern European ancestry; maybe all from Crete or other places in Greece, maybe some from Sardinian like Italian groups in the Iron Age, maybe from Italian women in the Classical Era, etc. Bottom line, they have it, so it should be no surprise that they show up in each other's gedmatch lists as just one example.

As for the Philistines, my quote was not about a PCA. You should re-read it. Even better, read the whole paper. The first Philistines had ancestry from Crete/Greece or Sardinia/Italy or both. That's the conclusion based on statistical analysis. It's not at all just about a PCA.

ToBeOrNotToBe
09-07-19, 00:45
How does this tie in to that supposed leak that Israelites were heavily EEF if the Philistines didn't contribute? Given the lack of IBD sharing with modern Italians, what else is a better source of this ancestry than the Philistines (and iirc AJs have somewhat greater IBD sharing with Greeks than Italians). The real mystery though is that AJs seem to have a lot more Steppe ancestry than people traditionally assume (which would explain why people like Seth Green aren't at all uncommon). According to Eurogenes:

Ashkenazi_Jew

EEF,29.2
Levant_N,26.6
Yamnaya,24.2
Iran_N,12
Anatolia_N,6
Iberomaurusian,1.2
East_Asian,0.8

That's a lot of Steppe especially as for AJs it would be Corded Ware-derived, not Yamnaya - I also think Yamnaya isn't IE but anyway. Khazarian or Hyksos (who were in a Mitanni-like scenario) in origin?

ToBeOrNotToBe
09-07-19, 00:46
But basically, from the data presented it's almost certain the Philistines were Aegean in origin. And even Netanyahu came out and said the same.

Ownstyler
09-07-19, 00:58
I was responding to Joker's remark on the "Greek-like cline", the only PCA reference in the last comments.

davef
09-07-19, 03:16
How does this tie in to that supposed leak that Israelites were heavily EEF if the Philistines didn't contribute? Given the lack of IBD sharing with modern Italians, what else is a better source of this ancestry than the Philistines (and iirc AJs have somewhat greater IBD sharing with Greeks than Italians). The real mystery though is that AJs seem to have a lot more Steppe ancestry than people traditionally assume (which would explain why people like Seth Green aren't at all uncommon). According to Eurogenes:

Ashkenazi_Jew

EEF,29.2
Levant_N,26.6
Yamnaya,24.2
Iran_N,12
Anatolia_N,6
Iberomaurusian,1.2
East_Asian,0.8

That's a lot of Steppe especially as for AJs it would be Corded Ware-derived, not Yamnaya - I also think Yamnaya isn't IE but anyway. Khazarian or Hyksos (who were in a Mitanni-like scenario) in origin?
All due respect, I doubt that 24.2 steppe is accurate. This model probably needs more EEF /A_Neo and less steppe to be accurate. Levant and Iran neo scores seem about right.

i don't see how small amounts of extra central/ Eastern euro in a Greek/Levantine person can boost up to 24.2 percent steppe

ToBeOrNotToBe
09-07-19, 04:04
All due respect, I doubt that 24.2 steppe is accurate. This model probably needs more EEF /A_Neo and less steppe to be accurate. Levant and Iran neo scores seem about right.

i don't see how small amounts of extra central/ Eastern euro in a Greek/Levantine person can boost up to 24.2 percent steppe

Basically, Khazars and to some extent Indo-Iranians amongst the Hyksos (which definitely would have had a larger contribution in Israel than in say Lebanon). Khazars wouldn't be like Eastern Europeans (very WHG rich) but they would be more like other Steppe pastoralists genetically. With a non-insignificant Mongoloid contribution too, so probably similar to the Scythians. Something needs to explain Ashkenazi pigmentation - to some extent things like red hair has been present in Israel for a long time even preceding the Indo-Iranians (basically Kura-Araxes presumably of the same source as modern North Caucasian rufosity (Google "Chechen redhead"), e.g. I1730 in Jordan dates back to 2400 BC and was a light redhead with blue eyes), though the Indo-Iranian contribution imo is more responsible for the original Israelite rufosity. You can see examples in the Samaritans but all other non-AJ Western Jews have red hair to a decent degree (enough that in medieval Italy and Spain it was associated with Jews). For Ashkenazim it's a whole different level though.

The Khazars, after all, were described by Islamic sources as having white skin, red hair and blue eyes. To me, it's a perfect fit for people like this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Seth_Green_Comic-Con_2011.jpg/1024px-Seth_Green_Comic-Con_2011.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/RERu8JwGU-8/hqdefault.jpg

Angela
09-07-19, 05:33
Oh, God, here we go with the Khazars again. Hasn't the news reached everyone that the Khazar hypothesis is dead and buried?

Angela
09-07-19, 05:37
I was responding to Joker's remark on the "Greek-like cline", the only PCA reference in the last comments.

O.K. I misunderstood.

However, just so we're clear, a person claiming that there is a "cline" in certain populations doesn't "necessarily" mean that the person is relying on a PCA, although that's what this person might have meant and it's easier to see in that way. There is a most definite North/South cline in Italy and one can see it in autosomal results as well as on a PCA.

Yetos
09-07-19, 06:38
I do not know if it helps
I found these

https://www.timesofisrael.com/archaeologists-say-they-found-town-where-future-king-david-took-refuge-from-saul/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/know-thine-enemy-dna-study-solves-ancient-riddle-of-origins-of-the-philistines/



''Cautious not to over-reach from the study’s general impressions, Master said that there are “better matches from Crete,” emphasizing that until there are more samples available, “at the moment we cannot prove the specific location from whence they came.”

Once they arrived in the region that would be named Philistia, the Philistine migrants began intermarrying — or at least “inter-procreating,” quipped Master — with the local population. By 1000 BCE, their genes are almost indistinguishable.

According to Choongwon Jeong of the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History, one of the corresponding authors of the study, by analyzing later Iron Age individuals from Ashkelon, the researchers found that the European-related component could no longer be traced. “Within no more than two centuries, this genetic footprint introduced during the early Iron Age is no longer detectable and seems to be diluted by a local Levantine related gene pool,” said Jeong.

Joker
09-07-19, 12:55
O.K. I misunderstood.

However, just so we're clear, a person claiming that there is a "cline" in certain populations doesn't "necessarily" mean that the person is relying on a PCA, although that's what this person might have meant and it's easier to see in that way. There is a most definite North/South cline in Italy and one can see it in autosomal results as well as on a PCA.

I was referring specifically to autosomal DNA and the Greek-like genetic cline of Ashkenazi Jews toward Peloponnese Greeks/Greek Islanders, especially the Island of Crete.
This also applies towards the former Greek colonies in Sicily and South Italy.
I have no idea what prompted the poster to discuss PCA, since it was never mentioned in my post.

Many haplogroups are found in Ashkenazi Jews that give a clear indication of likely Greco-Roman admixture.
25% of their J2 for instance is J2aM92, this subclade is not present even in Sephardi Jews and highly likely to be of Greco-Roman origin.
This would lead me to the theory that Greco-Roman admixture in the gene pool of European Jewish descendants varies and there were multiple admixture events.


The poster never replied to me directly or quoted me.
I never mentioned PCA, and that was not the intent of my post.

ToBeOrNotToBe
09-07-19, 13:28
Oh, God, here we go with the Khazars again. Hasn't the news reached everyone that the Khazar hypothesis is dead and buried?

Of predominant descent yes. But the idea of partial heritage is still open. I don’t doubt the bulk of AJ ancestry is common to all other Western Jews though, just I think the Khazars are responsible for increased Steppe ancestry and lighter pigmentation amongst AJs as compared to for example Sephardim (who actually mixed a lot more with their surrounding populations than AJs). Most other people would say this was from Eastern Europeans but the paucity of WHG ancestry amongst other things (they are LESS redhaired than AJs by quite a bit) leads me to believe admixture with e.g. Poles was smaller than most think.

Joker
09-07-19, 13:35
I was responding to Joker's remark on the "Greek-like cline", the only PCA reference in the last comments.

You never quoted me or responded to my post directly.
If you did, I would tell you that I never referred to PCA in my post, and the usage of "cline" in population genetics is not synonymous with PCA.
Also, Ashkenazim are not just random lurkers with Graeco-Romans on a PCA, their Jewish/Graeco-Roman interconnections go back to ancient Levant.
At the time of the Maccabean Revolt in 167–160 BCE large populations of Judeans were already Hellenized and assimilated into Greek culture.
Jewish populations have lived in Graeco-Roman Europe for well over 2000 years.
Ashkenazi Haplogroups are also in play, many are of ambiguous origins, like my own paternal Haplogroup of J2aM67.
Go take a look at Crete/Marche and Abruzzo and their levels of J2aM67, is this a mere coincidence?

Angela
09-07-19, 14:47
I was referring specifically to autosomal DNA and the Greek-like genetic cline of Ashkenazi Jews toward Peloponnese Greeks/Greek Islanders, especially the Island of Crete.
This also applies towards the former Greek colonies in Sicily and South Italy.
I have no idea what prompted the poster to discuss PCA, since it was never mentioned in my post.

Many haplogroups are found in Ashkenazi Jews that give a clear indication of likely Greco-Roman admixture.
25% of their J2 for instance is J2aM92, this subclade is not present even in Sephardi Jews and highly likely to be of Greco-Roman origin.
This would lead me to the theory that Greco-Roman admixture in the gene pool of European Jewish descendants varies and there were multiple admixture events.


The poster never replied to me directly or quoted me.
I never mentioned PCA, and that was not the intent of my post.

Thanks for explaining at more length. I myself tried to point out that a genetic "cline" can be seen through other tools than PCAs.

I think it has pretty much become the consensus that "western" Jews, and particularly "Ashkenazi" Jews have a lot of Southern European admixture, Crete/Peloponnese like, or Southern Italian/Hellenistic Roman like or both. The authors won't commit themselves completely as to the source in Philistines without more ancient samples, although Crete is in the "lead", with perhaps a "Sardinian" like population as an alternate. It doesn't matter to me. I have no "theory" to defend or which I prefer. I'll leave it to more ancient dna to make it clearer. Likewise as to whether perhaps in other cities the signal persisted for longer.

Anyway, there were multiple times and places where the admixture could have occurred. I take your point about your particular y Dna line, but I think it's still true, is it not, that more of the yDna is Levantine in origin, and more of the mtDna is "European" in origin?

Joker
09-07-19, 16:38
Thanks for explaining at more length. I myself tried to point out that a genetic "cline" can be seen through other tools than PCAs.

I think it has pretty much become the consensus that "western" Jews, and particularly "Ashkenazi" Jews have a lot of Southern European admixture, Crete/Peloponnese like, or Southern Italian/Hellenistic Roman like or both. The authors won't commit themselves completely as to the source in Philistines without more ancient samples, although Crete is in the "lead", with perhaps a "Sardinian" like population as an alternate. It doesn't matter to me. I have no "theory" to defend or which I prefer. I'll leave it to more ancient dna to make it clearer. Likewise as to whether perhaps in other cities the signal persisted for longer.

Anyway, there were multiple times and places where the admixture could have occurred. I take your point about your particular y Dna line, but I think it's still true, is it not, that more of the yDna is Levantine in origin, and more of the mtDna is "European" in origin?

The European mother's/Levantine father's model of Ashkenazim is crude and not accurate at all, in my opinion.
A GedMatch modeling of 50% Lebanese Christian/50% Northern Italian is misleading and wholly incorrect, in my opinion.
Ashkenazim non European paternal lines look more Transcaucasian/Anatolian/Kurdish/Iranian, than like most most modern Levantine groups.

50% of Ashkenazim J2 is either J2aM67 or J2aM92, both of which may very well be of Southern European origin.

Haplogroup G2 appears almost exclusively in eastern Ashkenazim, comprising approximately 2% of the results (Behar et al. 2004b, Supplementary Material).


Haplogroup G-M201 is found at high frequencies among populations of the Caucasus and Georgia and may have originated in that region (Cinnioglu et al. 2004). The modal haplotype shown in Table 4 was found in 14 out of 34 Ashkenazi results, with an additional 5 results only a single-step mutation away, 10-Locus Haplotype (Behar et al 2004b, supplementary material).
***Can't post the link, my account is under 10 posts.

According to the findings of Behar (2004b, Supplementary Material), R1b comprises 44 out of 442 results, or nearly 10% of Ashkenazi results. Additionally, Behar (2004b) reports that the highly-admixed Dutch Jews have 26.1% R1b results.
Haplogroup I (I-P19) comprises 18 out of 442 results, or approximately 4% of the Ashkenazi results. Thus, haplogroups R1b and I among Ashkenazi Jews comprise almost 15% of the DNA results.


R1a1 comprises nearly 12% of Nebel's results (Nebel et al 2005).
How much of this R1a1 is of Eastern Euro or Iranian Origin?
Neither are from the Levant or descendants of the Israelites.

I do agree that Ashkenazim paternal lines are majority non European, but the European paternal haplogroups of Ashkenazim are minimized and largely relegated to the dust bin of population genetics, and very rarely investigated in depth.
Many of the non European "Middle Eastern" paternal haplogroups of Ashkenazi Jews are far from homogeneous to the Levant.

Aspurg
09-07-19, 19:00
R1a1 comprises nearly 12% of Nebel's results (Nebel et al 2005).
How much of this R1a1 is of Eastern Euro or Iranian Origin?
Neither are from the Levant or descendants of the Israelites.


Vast majority of AJ R1a is R-Y2619 under R-Z93>CTS6 with a TMRCA of just 1350 ybp. As CTS6 has significant basal diversity in Iran, it seems they might be of proto-Persian descend, thus far of any Z93 clades CTS6 has by far the biggest claim for that..
So ironically Netanyahu is likely proto-Persian.:grin: Jewish scriptures spoke favorably of Cyrus, so this clade might have been assimilated during that time..
Two R-Z93 clades were found in Khazar burials, and I haven't seen any Jews clustering with them.

Ownstyler
09-07-19, 20:01
All I said is PCA proximity cannot necessarily shared ancestry, which is true. I did not oppose or back any views on the relationship between Ashkenazi Jews and South Europeans. However, making historical inferences from autosomal similarity is also very problematic and the authors actually emphasize the difficulties several times through the paper, even just in regard to their own conclusions, let alone these unrelated theories here.

Yetos
09-07-19, 20:35
All I said is PCA proximity cannot necessarily shared ancestry, which is true. I did not oppose or back any views on the relationship between Ashkenazi Jews and South Europeans. However, making historical inferences from autosomal similarity is also very problematic and the authors actually emphasize the difficulties several times through the paper, even just in regard to their own conclusions, let alone these unrelated theories here.

the strange is that this can not be done,
that little 0-5 % that is found in people who have major even Balkan heritage,
is enough to open theories, until is full analyzed,
and this 0-5% is found notin low % of populations,
But in big %
and I doupt that population in Greece or balkans have origins from AJ's
but that 0-5% is reaching numbers above expected in this area, (unoffially i hear about 40-60%)

Angela
09-07-19, 22:54
All I said is PCA proximity cannot necessarily shared ancestry, which is true. I did not oppose or back any views on the relationship between Ashkenazi Jews and South Europeans. However, making historical inferences from autosomal similarity is also very problematic and the authors actually emphasize the difficulties several times through the paper, even just in regard to their own conclusions, let alone these unrelated theories here.

If two countries are adjacent to each other geographically and plot genetically next to each other on a PCA, then the same ancient populations contributed to both or they contributed to each other genetically. Probably it's both.

That's how it normally works and everyone knows it. It's completely different from the offspring of two parents from far corners of the world, i.e. China and Britain, winding up next to Uighurs.

Ownstyler
10-07-19, 08:44
If two countries are adjacent to each other geographically and plot genetically next to each other on a PCA, then the same ancient populations contributed to both or they contributed to each other genetically. Probably it's both.

That's how it normally works and everyone knows it. It's completely different from the offspring of two parents from far corners of the world, i.e. China and Britain, winding up next to Uighurs.

Yes, but without a full autosomal record of all the populations that have existed in the surrounding region from the time in question until today, it is impossible to confidently determine which populations contributed and when. The data is still thin and there are several competing theories even about the temporary European contribution to Philistines. The permanent European component of a population that lived in Europe for centuries and might have neighbored Philistines 3000 years ago... it might be an entirely unrelated matter, who knows.

Jovialis
10-07-19, 12:26
Here's an article by Razib Kahn, addressing the data set used in the Phillistine paper:

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/07/06/ten-individuals-give-you-the-history-of-whole-populations-yes-they-do/

Joker
10-07-19, 15:57
Basically, Khazars and to some extent Indo-Iranians amongst the Hyksos (which definitely would have had a larger contribution in Israel than in say Lebanon). Khazars wouldn't be like Eastern Europeans (very WHG rich) but they would be more like other Steppe pastoralists genetically. With a non-insignificant Mongoloid contribution too, so probably similar to the Scythians. Something needs to explain Ashkenazi pigmentation - to some extent things like red hair has been present in Israel for a long time even preceding the Indo-Iranians (basically Kura-Araxes presumably of the same source as modern North Caucasian rufosity (Google "Chechen redhead"), e.g. I1730 in Jordan dates back to 2400 BC and was a light redhead with blue eyes), though the Indo-Iranian contribution imo is more responsible for the original Israelite rufosity. You can see examples in the Samaritans but all other non-AJ Western Jews have red hair to a decent degree (enough that in medieval Italy and Spain it was associated with Jews). For Ashkenazim it's a whole different level though.

The Khazars, after all, were described by Islamic sources as having white skin, red hair and blue eyes. To me, it's a perfect fit for people like this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Seth_Green_Comic-Con_2011.jpg/1024px-Seth_Green_Comic-Con_2011.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/RERu8JwGU-8/hqdefault.jpg

Ashkenazim are heavily admixed with Europeans.
One can't look at modern Arabians or Arabized populations of the Levant to infer what ancient Jews may have looked like.

Phenotype does not equal genotype.
Natalie Portman (left) is Ashkenazi Jewish, right is Keira Knightly, she is English, Scottish, Welsh.
Both look like sisters, despite the fact that their genetic backgrounds are quite divergent.https://www.tvovermind.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Portman.jpg

Wheal
10-07-19, 16:52
I am still a firm believer that you have to take "origins" with a grain of salt. In one family, father and mother show zero Jewish ancestry (99% and 98% eu results), and one of five children shows 9%. Other four children show 0% (97-100% eu results). It is the combination of inherited gene's that gives the appearance of origin. Until we have a much greater database

Angela
10-07-19, 17:01
I am still a firm believer that you have to take "origins" with a grain of salt. In one family, father and mother show zero Jewish ancestry (99% and 98% eu results), and one of five children shows 9%. Other four children show 0% (97-100% eu results). It is the combination of inherited gene's that gives the appearance of origin. Until we have a much greater database

Did they test with 23andme, Wheal? One thing they're excellent at is finding Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. I've never seen it wrong. Other companies, like Geno etc., or that stupid Eurogenes "J" test, are TERRIBLE. :)

Wheal
10-07-19, 17:05
No Angela, they tested with FTdna. and all of the children are dna confirmed. I think it is just a combination of early Spanish, German and Russian maybe. It's just odd that no one else in the family shows any percentage at all

kingjohn
10-07-19, 17:10
please people don't make this thread to aschenazi jews origin one
enough in anthrogenica a 750 paper thread on the origin of western jews :(

Wheal
10-07-19, 17:13
Sorry @kingjohn, only meant it as an example of origins, and the hope that old dna samples will increase to give a more clear picture

Angela
11-07-19, 01:05
No Angela, they tested with FTdna. and all of the children are dna confirmed. I think it is just a combination of early Spanish, German and Russian maybe. It's just odd that no one else in the family shows any percentage at all

Same people did the algorithms for both and they both show strange results. No one should take them seriously. Only trust 23andme for that one.

Angela
11-07-19, 01:10
please people don't make this thread to aschenazi jews origin one
enough in anthrogenica a 750 paper thread on the origin of western jews :(

Well, Philistines did live right next to Jews, and there's always been a theory they might have bequeathed some more "western" ancestry to "European" Jews. So it's absolutely not really "off topic".

I totally take your point, however. Some people are deranged on the subject. Don't necessarily believe those people claiming to be Jews on that site, either. Half of it is about Sicilians and Southern Italians. Anthrogenica is teeming with old theapricity users who are secret Nordicists or Orienalists for various bizarre reasons. Now they ruined the reputation of that site they needed a new "home", and they migrated there and especially to that thread.

Don't worry. I won't let that happen to this thread, or to the Italian genetics one either.

holderlin
11-07-19, 07:57
Aegean is what the archaeology strongly suggested as well so when taken together with the DNA it's a home run, which also probably means that the Sea Peoples were from the Aegean too. This not only made intuitive sense but the sparse evidence hinted at this as well.

My hunch is that this did have something to do with the actual events underpinning the Trojan War stories. Whatever this event was it was far reaching. There's several myths revolving around it including the Odyssey, which is nothing more than Trojan War vets getting tangled up in adventure after the War. This is so awesome.

JalkeSchlupp
11-07-19, 19:47
Basically, Khazars and to some extent Indo-Iranians amongst the Hyksos (which definitely would have had a larger contribution in Israel than in say Lebanon). Khazars wouldn't be like Eastern Europeans (very WHG rich) but they would be more like other Steppe pastoralists genetically. With a non-insignificant Mongoloid contribution too, so probably similar to the Scythians. Something needs to explain Ashkenazi pigmentation - to some extent things like red hair has been present in Israel for a long time even preceding the Indo-Iranians (basically Kura-Araxes presumably of the same source as modern North Caucasian rufosity (Google "Chechen redhead"), e.g. I1730 in Jordan dates back to 2400 BC and was a light redhead with blue eyes), though the Indo-Iranian contribution imo is more responsible for the original Israelite rufosity. You can see examples in the Samaritans but all other non-AJ Western Jews have red hair to a decent degree (enough that in medieval Italy and Spain it was associated with Jews). For Ashkenazim it's a whole different level though.

The Khazars, after all, were described by Islamic sources as having white skin, red hair and blue eyes. To me, it's a perfect fit for people like this:



The Samaritans have the highest known carrier rate of R151C in the world. They also have the highest confirmed carrier rate of red hair outside of Northwest Europe. The carrier rate of R151C at 20.5% according the Samaritan sample (n=78) on ALFRED database, while with the Irish sample (n=226) the carrier rate is only 8.9%. According to the Samaritan sample (also n=72) from Krefter/Sammy Issac released on Forum Biodiversity originally 42% of Samaritans carry R151C. In the British Isles and among the Anglo-Celtic diaspora the maximum carrier rate of R151C appears to be 25%. The overall carrier rate of MC1R Variants associated with red hair among Samaritans in the British Isles is similar according to the Krefter spreadsheet.

It is important to notice that the Samaritans currently lack any other MC1R variants, while other Levantine also carry R160W at low frequencies. This clearly points towards the loss of diversity as result of the severe bottleneck the Samaritans population has gone through over the last century, growing eightfold from barely a hundred in the late 19th century to over 800 today. There population was once much larger, reaching 1.2 million in the 4th century. Now only four of the original families exist: Levi, Menasseh, Itamar and Ephraim. These families must have carried R151C at a much higher rate than the general Samaritan population, while lacking R160W. This is the explanation of the Samaritan anomaly.

Back in the early 20th century the Samaritans were found to have a conspicuously high rate of rufosity. In his work Zur Anthropologie der Samaritaner, published in 1927, Polish-Jewish Anthropologist Henryk Szpidbaum found that he observed 29.6% of Samaritan men as having red beards and 7.4% of Samaritan women being red-haired. These figures can match some parts of the British Isles associated most with red hair like Abeerdeenshire. With the four families having such pronounced rufosity it is not unexpected at all that they would have the very high carrier rate of R151C that they do today.

There are plenty of isolated tribes in the mountains of North Africa, West Asia, South/Central, or Central Asia, but no one has gone through the same set of circumstances as the Samaritans. Some of these groups may have preserved more recessive traits than the surrounding population, but none have undergone founder effect specifically with R151C. If the founder effect applied to R160W instead the population would be less rufous as that variant is correlated with red hair 2-3x less.

Jews have a much lower tendency towards red hair than the Modern Samaritans, although historically Samaritans were much less rufous. According to German Biologist Harry Conitzer who studied the inheritance of red hair (Die Rothaarigkeit), the frequency of red hair among Sephardic Jews is .92%. That is based on adult 869 observations from other Anthropologists, who he does not name. This fits into the 0-1% range he gives for Southern Europe. For Ashkenazi Jews he gives 3.36% based on adult 10,665 observations from other Anthropologists which he does not name. Most of these do come from Maurice Fishberg though, or else he could not reach 10,665 based on adult observations. Conitzer states that the 3.36% May be higher than Southern or Central Europeans overall, this is certainly not the case for Northwest Europe, as represented by the Dutch, as Dutch Jews have roughly the exact frequency of red hair as native Dutch based on the extensive 1907 pigmentation survey of Dutch schoolchildren by Louis Bolk (2.56% for Dutch Jews and 2.45% for Dutch gentiles).

The general impression is that rufosity among modern Samaritians is much higher than related peoples.

ToBeOrNotToBe
11-07-19, 23:33
The Samaritans have the highest known carrier rate of R151C in the world. They also have the highest confirmed carrier rate of red hair outside of Northwest Europe. The carrier rate of R151C at 20.5% according the Samaritan sample (n=78) on ALFRED database, while with the Irish sample (n=226) the carrier rate is only 8.9%. According to the Samaritan sample (also n=72) from Krefter/Sammy Issac released on Forum Biodiversity originally 42% of Samaritans carry R151C. In the British Isles and among the Anglo-Celtic diaspora the maximum carrier rate of R151C appears to be 25%. The overall carrier rate of MC1R Variants associated with red hair among Samaritans in the British Isles is similar according to the Krefter sample.

It is important to notice that the Samaritans currently lack any other MC1R variants, while other Levantine also carry R160W at low frequencies. This clearly points towards the loss of diversity as a result of the severe bottleneck the Samaritans population has gone through over the last century, growing eightfold from barely a hundred in the late 19th century to over 800 today. There population was once much larger, reaching 1.2 million in the 4th century. Now only four of the original families exist: Levi, Menasseh, Itamar and Ephraim. These families must have carried R151C at a much higher rate than the general Samaritan population, while lacking R160W. This is the explanation of the Samaritan anomaly.

Back in the early 20th century the Samaritans were found to have a conspicuously high rate of rufosity. In his work Zur Anthropologie der Samaritaner, published in 1927, Polish-Jewish Anthropologist Henryk Szpidbaum found that he observed 26.9% of Samaritan men as having red beards and 7.4% of Samaritan women being red-haired. These figures can match some parts of the British Isles associated most with red hair like Abeerdeenshire. With the four families having such pronounced rufosity it is not unexpected at all that they would have the very high carrier rate of R151C that they do today.

There are plenty of isolated tribes in the mountains of North Africa, West Asia, South/Central, or Central Asia, but no one has gone through the same set of circumstances as the Samaritans. Some of these groups may have preserved more recessive traits than the surrounding population, but none have undergone founder effect specifically with R151C. If the founder effect applied to R160W instead the population would be less rufous as that variant is correlated with red hair 2-3x less.

Jews have a much lower tendency towards red hair than the Modern Samaritans, although historically Samaritans were much less rufous. According to German Biologist Harry Conitzer who studied the inheritance of red hair (Die Rothaarigkeit), the frequency of red hair among Sephardic Jews is .92%. That is based on adult 869 observations from other Anthropologists, who he does not name. This fits into the 0-1% range he gives for Southern Europe. For Ashkenazi Jews he gives 3.36% based on adult 10,665 observations from other Anthropologists which he does not name. Most of these do come from Maurice Fishberg though, or else he could not reach 10,665 based on adult observations. Conitzer states that 3.36% May be higher than Southern or Central Europeans overall, this is certainly not the case in contiental Northwest Europe, as represented by the Dutch, as Dutch Jews have roughly the exact frequency of red hair as native Dutch based on the extensive 1907 pigmentation survey of Dutch schoolchildren by Louis Bolk (2.56% for Dutch Jews and 2.45% for Dutch gentiles).

The general impression is that rufosity among modern Samaritians is much higher than related peoples.

I really do not trust those statistics, there’s absolutely no way Samaritans are more redhaired than AJs.

MOESAN
11-07-19, 23:54
Ashkenazim are heavily admixed with Europeans.
One can't look at modern Arabians or Arabized populations of the Levant to infer what ancient Jews may have looked like.

Phenotype does not equal genotype.
Natalie Portman (left) is Ashkenazi Jewish, right is Keira Knightly, she is English, Scottish, Welsh.


Both look like sisters, despite the fact that their genetic backgrounds are quite divergent.https://www.tvovermind.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Portman.jpg

only partly right, above: under different angles, and their hair cut, these two pretty woman would look less "identical" (skull) - that said, I agree, yes, phenotype at individual level can confuse us, almost everybdy knows that, or ought to know that -
curiously enough, Portman has a skull and face association, and eyes/orbits settling which evocate furiously the 'long barrow' type of Coon, of a 'mediter' subtype or mean-type which was dominant in Neolithical Britain before BB's, and was well exemplarified among some remote Welsh regions spite not truly dominant there and then!

MOESAN
12-07-19, 00:03
Some details from B. Sergent, which can clear out or complicate the « tableau » (it's not completely out of topic)

digest of mine :
some authors spoke of « proto-latin » languages in southern Italy ; in fact, not «genuine Proto-Latins but a population layer which has preceded the Sabellians expansion, and seemed a link between Latins and Sicules – this layer had been compared by someones to Illyrians when every tribe of the Roman Illyricum was considered Illyrian when in fact, this great West-Adriatic administrative region was the room of three langages, a Venetic (North-Italic), a South-Italic one and the genuine Illyrian, akin to modern Albanian, to ancient Messapian and to other south-central Balkan rather satem langauges – the Khônes tribe of southern Italy would be linked to Khàones of Epirus, and the Sùbaris town would be linked too to towns of Greece. Seemingly there has been a migration from the Balkans to Italy without link with the Apulian one – tribes pushed later by the Messapian arrival – it’s the confusion between true Illyrians or Messapians and these South-Italic people which pushed someones to speake of Illyrian presence in the Elymes country in Southern Italy and Sicily -
on another side, the palaist- root found in Greece, Epirus, Western Thrace, is not a greek term and some authors think the Phillistines would have been the same thing as the Pelasgians – the Pelasgoi name seems come from the so called Pelasgikon, supposed to have been spelled Pelastikon by the Attic people – an hypothesis is that Pelasgians were in fact *Pelastaî, *Pelaistani, the -g- coming from the attraction of the greek word pélagos, the sea – others think in a change of suffixe, but the temptation is great to link Pelastaî/Pelaistani and Pelasgoi, and to see South-Italics in the Pelaistani, or Phillistins -
Egyptians called ‘the North and Sea People a group of pops (pirates) from Egea ; they mentioned a p-r-š-t people, something like Pulašati (Peleset?); the Bible speaks of the Caphtorim island = Creta, source of the Sea People ; ancient Greeks considered some Pelasgians were living in Creta and even were dispersed in diverse places of the Mediterranea sea. The Pulašati raided Egypt under Ramses the 3th around 1153 BC, along with Danuna, surely enough Greeks (Danaeans), and the other people who attacked Egypt were the Šardana (South Balkans too?), Wašaša (somewhere in Greece or Egee ?, more than a close town name or region name there), Sakaluša (Sekeles ?, from Sagalassos, S-W Anatolia?) : ATW, it seems sure the Sea People were from North, close to Greece and W-Anatolia, and Egea of course –
« Pelasgians » were associated with Tyrsenians in sea plundering around Egea, before their dispersion and fading out, leaving their name as generic term for every bad known ancient pop of the surroundings (in Greek at least) – before disappearing complely they took part in Tyrsenian moves and considered as founders of the Agylla town or Caere (= Cerveteri today) in Etruria (Italy)… The evident ressemblances with the modern names like Sardinia, Sicily and Tyrrhens points to Italy: were these folks already settled in Italy then ? If Yes, maybe they kept some counters in their regions of origin, more in East ?
To come back to the Italics, their coming from Balkans into Italy are confusing : South Italics came first, but did they come from N-E by land, or straight away by sea from Epirus or Albania, like their successors Messapians of Illyrian filiation ? Charles, physical anthropologist, thought a pop he called ‘balkano-mediterraneans’ came by North to Italy from the Central Balkans at Chalcolithic (since 2200 BC?): is there a link ? Or is this too early ?
Pelastaî (so Phillistins alias Pelasgians?) had rather Italic personal names, and would have been South-Italics too, despite I don’t think they come with this first colonisation by N-E lands ; Hubert said Illyrians cut off Celts from Italics at or a bit before IA (somewhere around the margins of Austria/Croatia/Hungary?) but Sergent thinks furthermore that Illyrians or Illyrianlike tribes (so more akin to Dacians and Thracians) cut off the Balkan South Italics from other Italics akin to Veneti and Dalmatians-Liburnians -


It seems founding out affiliation of pops and languages, despite it’s difficult, is less hard than to follow accurately the moves of the concerned pops. Italy seems to have been a very agitated place as well as Balkans during Antiquity, and if general moves and directions may be expected, it remains there have surely been a lot of smaller moves of every sort on every direction.


Another question : the Y-R1b-U152/L28 in « Archaic Creta » ? When and where from ?

Joker
12-07-19, 00:05
only partly right, above: under different angles, and their hair cut, these two pretty woman would look less "identical" (skull) - that said, I agree, yes, phenotype at individual level can confuse us, almost everybdy knows that, or ought to know that -
curiously enough, Portman has a skull and face association, and eyes/orbits settling which evocate furiously the 'long barrow' type of Coon, of a 'mediter' subtype or mean-type which was dominant in Neolithical Britain before BB's, and was well exemplarified among some remote Welsh regions spite not truly dominant there and then!

Why did you put the word "identical" in quotes?
Did I say that Natalie Portman was "identical" to Keira Knightly?

I attempted to make a simple point...And it was straightforward, or so I thought...
You probably would have been better off engaging the poster that I was responding to if you were sincerely trying to have a rational or productive dialog.
I didn't join this site to *****.
I'm making a mistake even responding to you right now.
I wont make it twice.
Have a nice day.

MOESAN
12-07-19, 00:19
Why did you put the word "identical" in quotes?
Did I say that Natalie Portman was "identical" to is Keira Knightly?

I attempted to make a simple point...And it was straightforward, or so I thought...
You probably would have been better off engaging the poster that I was responding to if you were sincerely trying to have a rational or productive dialog.
I didn't join this site to *****.
I'm making a mistake even responding to you right now.
I wont make it twice.
Have a nice day.

You have a very thin skin, man.
Don't take my words so strictly; I was rather agreeing with you, but my aim was to point to some possible mistakes, concerning your "readers" more than yourself, when speaking about actresses whose facial aspect can be converging or diverging according to make-up. I never said your examples were 'bad' - You made your point and what I wrote did not contradict it, at the contrary, concerning phenotype and COMPLETE geotype (because phenotypes are greatly genetic too).
I have no reason to offense you, but I like split hairs sometimes, and I accept when my posts are submitted to the same treatment.
I 'll have a nice night.

ToBeOrNotToBe
12-07-19, 01:47
Ashkenazim are heavily admixed with Europeans.
One can't look at modern Arabians or Arabized populations of the Levant to infer what ancient Jews may have looked like.

Phenotype does not equal genotype.
Natalie Portman (left) is Ashkenazi Jewish, right is Keira Knightly, she is English, Scottish, Welsh.
Both look like sisters, despite the fact that their genetic backgrounds are quite divergent.https://www.tvovermind.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Portman.jpg

There is a Northern Mediterranean element in both Anglos and AJs but the rufosity is much more unexpected given AJs have such little WHG this element surely was acquired from a Steppe pastoralist population such as the Khazars (who presumably looked similar to Scythians).

Also, Natalie Portman is just way better than Keira Knightly - not even close

Archetype0ne
12-07-19, 02:11
Aegean is what the archaeology strongly suggested as well so when taken together with the DNA it's a home run, which also probably means that the Sea Peoples were from the Aegean too. This not only made intuitive sense but the sparse evidence hinted at this as well.

My hunch is that this did have something to do with the actual events underpinning the Trojan War stories. Whatever this event was it was far reaching. There's several myths revolving around it including the Odyssey, which is nothing more than Trojan War vets getting tangled up in adventure after the War. This is so awesome.

I am glad I'm not the only one with an affinity for that scenario.

JalkeSchlupp
12-07-19, 06:16
I really do not trust those statistics, there’s absolutely no way Samaritans are more redhaired than AJs.



Henry Minor Huxley is the only other Anthropologist to observe the Samaritans.

He found only 6.2% red beards and no red scalp hair, but he included no women and there were fewer men observed. As Szpidbaum was clearly more extensive, I see no reason to emphasize Huxley more.

If you read my explanation clearly you should have no trouble believing. If you have four families among whom red hair is common and they have a lot of children between each other, your going to end up with a larger population where red hair is common.

I got the Szpidbaum statistics from Hans F. K. Günther‘s Rassenkunde des jüdischen Volkes
Pages 153-54. You can access it here: archive.org/details/Guenther-Hans-Rassenkunde-des-juedischen-Volkes-2/page/n154)

Genetic sources you can find here: ALFRED alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/SiteTable1A_working.asp?siteuid=SI663691F)
Sammy Issac Spreadsheet: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iF9hHSjfeUrHXGlYrWxkfdXJcRm5NQQU4GuNtXGrCtw

Add in https:// as I can’t give links yet.

Unexpected does not mean wrong.

ToBeOrNotToBe
12-07-19, 13:16
Henry Minor Huxley is the only other Anthropologist to observe the Samaritans.

He found only 6.2% red beards and no red scalp hair, but he included no women and there were fewer men observed. As Szpidbaum was clearly more extensive, I see no reason to emphasize Huxley more.

If you read my explanation clearly you should have no trouble believing. If you have four families among whom red hair is common and they have a lot of children between each other, your going to end up with a larger population where red hair is common.

I got the Szpidbaum statistics from Hans F. K. Günther‘s Rassenkunde des jüdischen Volkes
Pages 153-54. You can access it here: archive.org/details/Guenther-Hans-Rassenkunde-des-juedischen-Volkes-2/page/n154)

Genetic sources you can find here: ALFRED alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/SiteTable1A_working.asp?siteuid=SI663691F)
Sammy Issac Spreadsheet: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iF9hHSjfeUrHXGlYrWxkfdXJcRm5NQQU4GuNtXGrCtw

Add in https:// as I can’t give links yet.

Unexpected does not mean wrong.

Yeah, I get your point about potential founder effects and data trumping expectations I suppose, but there’s only been limited observation and what’s more 6.2% red beards may include only slightly reddish colour which in a different survey might not make the cut for being red - and this is just beards, not even hair, which would be much less red as a total percentage. Maybe it’s around the same as Ashkenazim, but I would personally want to see much more evidence before believing the levels of rufosity greatly exceeded AJs. It’s all well and good looking at data but without knowing reliability I stand by the fact that big claims require appropriate levels of evidence

Joker
12-07-19, 13:33
There is a Northern Mediterranean element in both Anglos and AJs but the rufosity is much more unexpected given AJs have such little WHG this element surely was acquired from a Steppe pastoralist population such as the Khazars (who presumably looked similar to Scythians).

Also, Natalie Portman is just way better than Keira Knightly - not even close
King John had a point, I don't want to soil a perfectly fine thread about ancient Philistine DNA any further.

Knightly has obvious anorexia issues in my opinion, your preference for Portman is duly noted...
Portman is also brainy and a graduated Harvard with a degree in Psychology.

Where is the evidence of mass Khazar genetic introgression in the Ashkenazi genome?
Ashkenazim look very much like Southern Greeks and South Italians/Sicilians on the autosomal level.
Why is that?

ToBeOrNotToBe
12-07-19, 13:47
King John had a point, I don't want to soil a perfectly fine thread about ancient Philistine DNA any further.

Knightly has obvious anorexia issues in my opinion, your preference for Portman is duly noted...
Portman is also brainy and a graduated Harvard with a degree in Psychology.

Where is the evidence of mass Khazar genetic introgression in the Ashkenazi genome?
Ashkenazim look very much like Southern Greeks and South Italians/Sicilians on the autosomal level.
Why is that?

I would say that the evidence is from Davidski’s modelling of AJs as having surprisingly high Steppe and also the fact that Ashkenazim are so much lighter than Southern Italians/Sicilians/Southern Greeks with a special emphasis on rufosity. Yet WHG is low, hence my belief the population responsible for these distinctions from e.g. Sicilians is that of Steppe pastoralists and the likely candidate being the Khazars. Yet PCA plots are similar, so there must be an offset to the Steppe infusion that Ashkenazim have in extra abundance as compared to Sicilians which I believe is greater West Asian ancestry. So Sicilians would be more Mediterranean and this makes perfect sense phenotypically too.

davef
12-07-19, 13:58
What's the distance score for the model with the high steppe score for Ashkenazi? Just curious

ToBeOrNotToBe
12-07-19, 14:00
What's the distance score for the model with the high steppe score for Ashkenazi? Just curious

Ashkenazi_Jew

EEF,29.2
Levant_N,26.6
Yamnaya,24.2
Iran_N,12
Anatolia_N,6
Iberomaurusian,1.2
East_Asian,0.8

Joker
12-07-19, 14:13
I would say that the evidence is from Davidski’s modelling of AJs as having surprisingly high Steppe and also the fact that Ashkenazim are so much lighter than Southern Italians/Sicilians/Southern Greeks with a special emphasis on rufosity. Yet WHG is low, hence my belief the population responsible for these distinctions from e.g. Sicilians is that of Steppe pastoralists and the likely candidate being the Khazars. Yet PCA plots are similar, so there must be an offset to the Steppe infusion that Ashkenazim have in extra abundance as compared to Sicilians which I believe is greater West Asian ancestry. So Sicilians would be more Mediterranean and this makes perfect sense phenotypically too.

Why not post this in a Khazar hypothesis thread?
Or start another one?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25783-The-Jewish-Khazars

ToBeOrNotToBe
12-07-19, 14:28
Why not post this in a Khazar hypothesis thread?
Or start another one?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25783-The-Jewish-Khazars

Because I’m not that interested to be honest, it’s just the direction the thread went. There isn't really anything else to add about Philistine DNA anyway that hasn’t been covered.

Joker
12-07-19, 14:42
Because I’m not that interested to be honest, it’s just the direction the thread went. There isn't really anything else to add about Philistine DNA anyway that hasn’t been covered.

Sure seems like you have an interest in it.

There isn't really anything else to add about the Khazar hypothesis that hasn’t been covered ad nauseum .
Every wild eyed special interest group from David Duke to Black Hebrew Israelites to BritishIsraelism/Zionists have endlessly opined on the alleged Khazar/Ashkenazi connection.
Nothing good has ever come of it.

To begin with Khazar Khaganate was a massively heterogeneous group and a few ancient Khazar graves and their subsequent DNA analysts tells us little about their multi-ethnic origins.

I'm done, and apologize for steering this thread off into the Twilight Zone.

Angela
12-07-19, 14:47
Ok, ToBeOrNotToBe,

You were asked quite nicely to find a Khazar thread and post there if you must. Now it's a directive.

The next post on the topic will be deleted and you'll get an infraction.

I might even delete the ones already here.

Anyone who takes any notice of any results from Davidski/Eurogenes/Polako about Jews, known for years as a rabid anti-Semite, is off his rocker. The fact that Gedmatch still has his "J" test is tantamount to malpractice. Years ago he said Ashkenazim had such high IQs because of steppe ancestry. Of course, if you believe their high IQs are related to that, it's interesting they're so much higher than the ones of the Eastern Europeans around them. :) This is the kind of stuff which makes me wonder how people can trust his results and conclusions. You might also ask yourself why certain samples disappear from his programs.

ToBeOrNotToBe
12-07-19, 14:57
Ok, ToBeOrNotToBe,

You were asked quite nicely to find a Khazar thread and post there if you must. Now it's a directive.

The next post on the topic will be deleted and you'll get an infraction.

I might even delete the ones already here.

Anyone who takes any notice of any results from Davidski/Eurogenes/Polako about Jews, known for years as a rabid anti-Semite, is off his rocker. The fact that Gedmatch still has his "J" test is tantamount to malpractice. Years ago he said Ashkenazim had such high IQs because of steppe ancestry. Of course, if you believe their high IQs are related to that, it's interesting they're so much higher than the ones of the Eastern Europeans around them. :) This is the kind of stuff which makes me wonder how people can trust his results and conclusions. You might also ask yourself why certain samples disappear from his programs.

If he said that, that’s beyond stupid. I’d actually not trust his modelling if he said something like that

ToBeOrNotToBe
12-07-19, 15:07
Sure seems like you have an interest in it.

There isn't really anything else to add about the Khazar hypothesis that hasn’t been covered ad nauseum .
Every wild eyed special interest group from David Duke to Black Hebrew Israelites to BritishIsraelism/Zionists have endlessly opined on the alleged Khazar/Ashkenazi connection.
Nothing good has ever come of it.

To begin with Khazar Khaganate was a massively heterogeneous group and a few ancient Khazar graves and their subsequent DNA analysts tells us little about their multi-ethnic origins.

I'm done, and apologize for steering this thread off into the Twilight Zone.

I’ll stop now too, but I want to add these anti-Semitic people believe the Khazars are the principal ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews as a way to delegitimise them (and also Khazar sounds kinda evil). I just think there is partial Khazar ancestry, very low double digit as a percentage. I’ve given the reasons why I think so.

But yeah, this’ll be the end on this thread unless someone else brings it up again

Boreas
12-07-19, 19:11
and also Khazar sounds kinda evil

??????????

JalkeSchlupp
12-07-19, 20:39
(Just to get link Privileges)

JalkeSchlupp
12-07-19, 20:42
Yeah, I get your point about potential founder effects and data trumping expectations I suppose, but there’s only been limited observation and what’s more 6.2% red beards may include only slightly reddish colour which in a different survey might not make the cut for being red - and this is just beards, not even hair, which would be much less red as a total percentage. Maybe it’s around the same as Ashkenazim, but I would personally want to see much more evidence before believing the levels of rufosity greatly exceeded AJs. It’s all well and good looking at data but without knowing reliability I stand by the fact that big claims require appropriate levels of evidence



Of the roughly 1,032 beard observations of Ashkenazi Jews between Fishberg, Blechman, Yakowenko, and Weissenberg, about 10.5% were classified as red. This is under the definition of more or less red, including clear auburns, but not brown beards with a slight reddish tinge which would count as chestnut or light chestnut.

Henry Minor Huxley only observed 42 males over 15 for hair color and 32 males over 15 for beard color.
He included grey hair and beard which brings us down to 40 colored hair observations and 27 colored beard observations.

Henryk Szpidbaum observed 27 adult men and 27 adult women. In addition he observed 24 male children and 16 female children. Grey hair was excluded. This leaves us with the same number of colored beard observations, but over twice as many hair color observations.

Henry Minor Huxley is clearly not the better source as regards to pigmentation. Szpidbaum appears to be the most through.

When we take into consideration the men among whom no redheads were found, about 6.3% of the whole Samaritan sample is redheaded. 94 was over half the the Samaritan Population at the Time, so the sample Size is more than sufficient. Actually 29.6% of Samaritan men were redbearded or four individuals of the 27 adult male observations. Günther mistakenly switched the 6 with the 9.

Based on large samples the range for red head hair among Ashkenazi Jews is approximately 2-4%. Modern Samaritans are distinctly above that range, similar to Beddoe’s average for Scotland.They were not always like that, but that is besides the point.

Here is an article of Szpidbaum’s work on the Samaritans in Polish, pages 331-356:

http://rcin.org.pl/Content/50065/WA35_4434_cz167-r1926-t19_Spraw-TNW-wIII-art3.pdf

Reading it should be enough to close your doubts on the matter.

Jovialis
12-07-19, 22:53
https://i.imgur.com/XnCMQgy.png

This sample seems a bit closer to Minoans, than from an earlier one. This was from before the Philistine invasion.

Also, I recall reading from the Canaanite paper, that there has been Eurasian gene flow in the region since 3,800 to 2,200 years ago. This is before the Philistine arrival during the Sea Peoples Invasion. I think it is likely the west to east gene flow since this time is responsible for some of the southern European ancestry as well.

https://i.imgur.com/QnrvhAE.png

https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30276-8


The researchers estimate that new Eurasian people mixed with the Canaanite population about 3,800 to 2,200 years ago at a time when there were many conquests of the region from outside.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170727122039.htm

Archetype0ne
12-07-19, 23:28
https://i.imgur.com/XnCMQgy.png

This sample seems a bit closer to Minoans, than from an earlier one. This was from before the Philistine invasion.

Also, I recall reading from the Canaanite paper, that there has been Eurasian gene flow in the region since 3,800 to 2,200 years ago. This is before the Philistine arrival during the Sea Peoples Invasion. I think it is likely the west to east gene flow since this time is responsible for some of the southern European ancestry as well.

https://i.imgur.com/QnrvhAE.png

https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30276-8

Very interesting perspective mate thanks for sharing.
I am astonished also to the closeness of the sample to Hittite Anatolia. Imo the Hittite Anatolia might have been a conduit for the spread of genes as well as culture(pottery, material technology) into the Levant.

bicicleur
13-07-19, 08:42
https://i.imgur.com/XnCMQgy.png

This sample seems a bit closer to Minoans, than from an earlier one. This was from before the Philistine invasion.

Also, I recall reading from the Canaanite paper, that there has been Eurasian gene flow in the region since 3,800 to 2,200 years ago. This is before the Philistine arrival during the Sea Peoples Invasion. I think it is likely the west to east gene flow since this time is responsible for some of the southern European ancestry as well.

https://i.imgur.com/QnrvhAE.png

https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30276-8

the mitanni ?

Jovialis
13-07-19, 13:28
the mitanni ?

Possible, the paper said it could have come from a number of different sources from the surrounding area:


t is important to note here that Bronze Age Steppe populations used in the model need not be the actual ancestral mixing populations, and the admixture could have involved a population which was itself admixed with a Steppe-like ancestry population. The time period of this mixture overlaps with the decline of the Egyptian empire and its domination over the Levant, leading some of the coastal cities to thrive, including Sidon and Tyre, which established at this time a successful maritime trade network throughout the Mediterranean. The decline in Egypt’s power was also followed by a succession of conquests of the region by distant populations such as the Assyrians, Persians, and Macedonians, any or all of whom could have carried the Steppe-like ancestry observed here in the Levant after the Bronze Age.

https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30276-8

Jovialis
13-07-19, 13:42
What responsibility do archaeologists have when their research about prehistoric finds is appropriated to make 21st-century arguments about ethnicity?


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/when-ancient-dna-gets-politicized-180972639/


To simply report the facts in their research!

How can they be at fault if third-parties completely pervert their findings, and add their own narratives to it?

It is editorial-style journalism, and politicians that are at fault for the radicalization of ethno-nationalists of all stripes, NOT the researchers.

bicicleur
13-07-19, 13:49
To simply report the facts in their research!

How can they be at fault if third-parties completely pervert their findings, and add their own narratives to it?

It is editorial-style journalism, and politicians that are at fault for the radicalization of ethno-nationalists of all stripes, NOT the researchers.

Nethanyanu already used this report to say that Palestinians are newcomers (3200 years ago?) who have no claims whatsoever to make.

Angela
13-07-19, 15:09
That’s nonsense imo. Yes, the Muslim Palestinians/Jordanians may carry ancestry from subsequent migrations from Arabia or other places, but that’s still on a “Canaanite” base. I would like to see Christian Palestinians tested. My hunch is that they’re probably a lot like the Christian Lebanese. Meanwhile, Ashkenazim might be up to 50 percent Southern European and then a few percent Eastern European.

Jovialis
13-07-19, 15:45
That’s nonsense imo. Yes, the Muslim Palestinians/Jordanians may carry ancestry from subsequent migrations from Arabia or other places, but that’s still on a “Canaanite” base. I would like to see Christian Palestinians tested. My hunch is that they’re probably a lot like the Christian Lebanese. Meanwhile, Ashkenazim might be up to 50 percent Southern European and then a few percent Eastern European.

http://i.imgur.com/SaihpnD.jpg

Indeed, Bronze-Age Levantines plot right on top of modern-day Palestinians.

bicicleur
13-07-19, 17:47
that is what the paper says indeed
the genetic trace of the Philistines has dissapeared

that is what he said :

NETANYAHU: ARCHAEOLOGY, DNA PROVE PALESTINIANS NOT NATIVE TO LAND OF ISRAEL
“There’s no connection between the ancient Philistines & the modern Palestinians, whose ancestors came from the Arabian Peninsula to the Land of Israel thousands of years later,” Netanyahu tweeted.
“The Palestinians’ connection to the Land of Israel is nothing compared to the 4,000 year connection that the Jewish people have with the land,” the premiere concluded.

kingjohn
13-07-19, 17:53
that is what the paper says indeed
the genetic trace of the Philistines has dissapeared
nonetheless, Nathanyanu claims the Palestines are the descendants of the Philistine intruders (with emphasis on intruders)
he has to support his voters, the nationalist Jews in Israel and across the Jordan river

indeed but there are 40% of the peoples in israel who don't want him and i am one
of them he is corrupt among other things ......
and aschenazi jews are at least partly share allells with southern europeans so i dont see
his point if i was him i would shut up about this research and wouldn't use it for my personal agenda .....

bicicleur
13-07-19, 18:03
indeed but there are 40% of the peoples in israel who don't want him and i am one
of them he is corrupt among other things ......
and aschenazi jews are at least partly share allells with southern europeans so i dont see
his point if i was him i would shut up about this research and wouldn't use it for my personal agenda .....

yes, I know, it is a specific group, but they are big enough in Israel to bend the laws to their advantage

davef
13-07-19, 19:08
ah forget it, said something dumb. Wish I could delete posts. Dangit!

Angela
13-07-19, 19:25
http://i.imgur.com/SaihpnD.jpg

Indeed, Bronze-Age Levantines plot right on top of modern-day Palestinians.


Thanks for the PCA, Jovialis.

I think the consensus is that the Hebrews of old didn't exterminate the Canaanites, and their descendants are the Lebanese.

I would think some of that old Canaanite ancestry could very well have filled in Palestine after the Jews were mostly deported. Then, it's true, Arabian tribes also migrated into that area.

I can't remember, but maybe you or someone else can. The Palestinians do plot further north than the Arabian tribes, don't they? At least Christian ones?

At any rate, the Ashkenazim, with perhaps 40-60% "European" ancestry really shouldn't be casting any stones. I'm no expert, but truth be told, I think a lot of his support comes from "Eastern Jews".

davef
14-07-19, 07:13
Netanyahu needs to read a few papers and realize that's he's only about half Levantine. Palestinians are genetically very close to ancient levantines and their Arabian ancestry is way less than the European ancestry in Ashkenazis. Netanyahu is doing nothing but spreading crazy political lies to gain votes and power

bicicleur
14-07-19, 10:08
Thanks for the PCA, Jovialis.

I think the consensus is that the Hebrews of old didn't exterminate the Canaanites, and their descendants are the Lebanese.

I would think some of that old Canaanite ancestry could very well have filled in Palestine after the Jews were mostly deported. Then, it's true, Arabian tribes also migrated into that area.

I can't remember, but maybe you or someone else can. The Palestinians do plot further north than the Arabian tribes, don't they? At least Christian ones?

At any rate, the Ashkenazim, with perhaps 40-60% "European" ancestry really shouldn't be casting any stones. I'm no expert, but truth be told, I think a lot of his support comes from "Eastern Jews".

I would think the Lebanese and the Canaanites were already genetically very close since the bronze age.
And what about the Nabateans who moved in after the deportation of the Jews?
Wouldn't they have left a genetic trace?
Archeology suggests the Nabateans were Arab.

Joker
14-07-19, 13:36
What clues do we have to tell us about the possible origins of the Philistines?

Kunulua: Homeland of the Philistine Sea Peoples Finally Found?
https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/kunulua-homeland-philistine-sea-peoples-finally-found-003940



The Sea Peoples were a group of tribes that arose and battled against ancient Mediterranean communities from 1276-1178 BC. At the time the victims of their barrages called them: the Sherden, the Sheklesh, Lukka, Tursha, Peleset and Akawasha (http://www.ancient.eu/Sea_Peoples/). Lack of concrete evidence has left the history of the Sea Peoples to be heavily debated in the archaeological community. Scholars believe that it is likely the identity of the warrior Sea Peoples is Etruscan/Trojan, Italian, Philistine, Mycenaen or even Minoan.
A new study focuses on one of these alleged Sea Peoples – the Philistines (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Philistine-people). The origin of where they came from has also been a longstanding question for archaeologists. The past assumption was that as they were after all, “sea” people, they must be based from a location near water. The new discovery goes against this previously held idea. Tel Tayinat/Tell Tayinat (ancient Kunulua), Turkey was previously thought to have been just one of the many locations invaded by the Philistines, however new research proposes that they may have their origins in the location instead. The common previously held belief was that the Philistines were originally from the Aegean or Cyprus (https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/search-origins-philistines-part-2-001665) regions.
If this new report of the Philistine “base” being the remote site in southeast Turkey is in fact true, than it would show that the Philistines were present when many of the great civilizations collapsed and somehow they were exempt from a similar fate.
Large amounts of pottery and items that are identified as Philistine have been unearthed at Tel Tayinat, a site located near the border of Turkey and Syria. These artifacts have been found amongst the ruins of an ancient city that archaeologists think may be the real hometown of the Philistines. The belief that Tel Tayinat was a Philistine capital came about from the finds of the pottery and other anomalous artifacts at the site, according to Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/life/archaeology/1.676943).


https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/Philistine-pottery.jpg?itok=6MM-bWcT
Examples of Philistine pottery.


When Tel Tayinat was first excavated in the early 1900s the Philistine pottery was thought to be luxury goods imported by the Hittites. However, the Petrographic analyses completed by Professor Timothy Harrison of the University of Toronto’s Department of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations, and his team show that it is more probable that the pottery was locally made.


Other supporting evidence for the Philistine hometown of Tel Tayinat according to the researchers is found in the mysterious "King Taita", ruler of "Walistin" or "Patin." At Tel Tayinat there are several inscriptions referring to the powerful Taita. A 2003 discovery by Kay Kohlmayer of the inscriptions "Taita, King and hero of Patastini" and "Taita, conqueror of Carchemish" led to the reinterpretation of one Luwian (the Hittite language) hieroglyphic sign. That was accompanied by the increasing evidence of John David Hawkins, a Luwian expert, showing that the W’s in the language should be instead read as P’s. Thus “Walistin” would become “Palistin.” Researchers from the current study believe (http://www.haaretz.com/life/archaeology/1.676943) that the new interpretation corresponds with the information on the Peleset Sea Peoples documented by the Egyptians.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/Haddad-temple-syriga.jpg?itok=DYpZnUd1
King Taita is shown on the right relief. Haddad temple, Aleppo, Syria.



Some of the earliest writings on the Philistines are from the 12th Century BC in Egypt. The inscription discussed a battle and then defeat (https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-important-events/battle-delta-ramses-iii-saves-egypt-people-sea-003119) (at the Battle of Delta) of the Sea Peoples (https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/kunulua-homeland-philistine-sea-peoples-finally-found-003940). Petros Koutoupis (https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/search-origins-philistines-part-1-001663#ixzz3mOmBPLJV) wrote last year for Ancient Origins:
“In the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, the inscription specifically identifies an ethnic group from within this confederation and in opposition to the Egyptians called the P-r-s-t which phonetically renders to the Peleset. This is synonymous to the Hebrew ethnic term given to these same peoples of Pelishtim; that is, the Philistines.”

https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/Philistine-captives.jpg?itok=mqMWF5Wl
Philistine captives, Medinet-Habu tomb, Egypt .




Hence there is a mix of evidence showing both Luwian (Hittite) factors as well as Philistine features overlapping in Tel Tayinat. Harrison asserts (http://www.haaretz.com/life/archaeology/1.676943) that this shows the Philistines did not quickly overtake the city, but instead assimilated with the rest of the population over time and eventually made Kunulua their home before setting off to battle with foreign lands.
Professor Gunnar Lehmann of Ben Gurion University, recently conducted a study on coastal sites in Turkey and speaking on Tel Tayinat said (http://www.haaretz.com/life/archaeology/1.676943): "The inscriptions and the monuments of this king are all written in Luwian hieroglyphs, his reliefs are neo-Hittite but the pottery is Aegeanizing," this shows Aegean influences and “It would be very strange indeed if what we have at Tayinat wasn’t [a Philistine hub].”

Joker
14-07-19, 14:19
Netanyahu needs to read a few papers and realize that's he's only about half Levantine. Palestinians are genetically very close to ancient levantines and their Arabian ancestry is way less than the European ancestry in Ashkenazis. Netanyahu is doing nothing but spreading crazy political lies to gain votes and power
Not going to get into to Middle Eastern politics.

50% Levant ancestry is not supported by any actual reputable studies of the Ashkenazim genome..
Not all papers are created equal on the subject of Ashkenazi Jews; in fact nearly all are actually quite biased, and their reference populations are purposely skewed to give the appearance of a greater Levantine in component in Ashkenazi Jews.
The simplest way they do this is by excluding Greek and Sicilian/South Italian samples from their reference populations.
Nearly all papers on Ashkenazi Jews rely on this bit of trickery, and most people never read the supplementary material of these papers and just copy and paste a link of the paper onto a post to try and make some point.

James Xue et al DID use the aforementioned populations in his study of Ashkenazim.
The time and place of European admixture in Ashkenazi Jewish history

​https://i.ibb.co/HTfgPyR/journal-pgen-1006644-t001.png

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006644


finally, we considered GLOBETROTTER [21 (https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006644#pgen.1006644.ref021)], which can infer both the contribution of each ancestral source and the admixture time. The first step in a GLOBETROTTER analysis is running CHROMOPAINTER [20 (https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006644#pgen.1006644.ref020)], in order to determine the proportion of ancestry of each individual that is “copied” from each other individual in the dataset. Then, an ancestry profile for each population is reconstructed, representing the contribution of each other population to its ancestry [21 (https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006644#pgen.1006644.ref021), 22 (https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006644#pgen.1006644.ref022)]. The inferred ancestry profile for AJ was 5% Western EU, 10% Eastern EU, 30% Levant, and 55% Southern EU. The combined Western and Eastern EU component is in line with our other estimates, as well as the dominance of the Southern EU component. However, the overall European ancestry, ≈70% (or ≈67% after calibration by simulations; S1 Text (https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006644#pgen.1006644.s008) section 5), is about 15% higher than the LAI-based estimate, as well as our previous results based on whole-genome sequencing [9 (https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006644#pgen.1006644.ref009)]. Our detailed simulations (S1 Text (https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006644#pgen.1006644.s008) section 5) demonstrate that evidence exists to support either estimate. Possibly, the true fraction of EU ancestry is midway around ≈60%.
A massive flaw in Xue's study was not using reference populations from the Caucasus...

Angela
14-07-19, 15:02
Not going to get into to Middle Eastern politics.

50% Levant ancestry is not supported by any actual reputable studies of the Ashkenazim genome..
Not all papers are created equal on the subject of Ashkenazi Jews; in fact nearly all are actually quite biased, and their reference populations are purposely skewed to give the appearance of a greater Levantine in component in Ashkenazi Jews.
The simplest way they do this is by excluding Greek and Sicilian/South Italian samples from their reference populations.
Nearly all papers on Ashkenazi Jews rely on this bit of trickery, and most people never read the supplementary material of these papers and just copy and paste a link of the paper onto a post to try and make some point.

James Xue et al DID use the aforementioned populations in his study of Ashkenazim.
The time and place of European admixture in Ashkenazi Jewish history

​https://i.ibb.co/HTfgPyR/journal-pgen-1006644-t001.png

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006644


A massive flaw in Xue's study was not using reference populations from the Caucasus...

We've discussed Xue et al extensively on this site. This is not new material to us. It's always a good idea to check our research tool.

This is the last time we discussed Xue's work on the topic:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35705-Time-and-place-of-European-admixture-into-Ashkenazi-Jews?highlight=Xue

This was perhaps the first time:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31220-Carmi-Xue-paper-on-The-Time-and-Place-of-European-Gene-Flow-into-Ashkenazi-Jews?highlight=Xue




That's why I put an upper limit of about 60% for "European" ancestry, i.e. based on that paper, which is what you get if you read the quote you yourself provided carefully. You don't need Caucasus ancestry because there's plenty of that in the population sources from which Jews would have plausibly received it, i.e. Italian and Greek populations and Levant populations.

Joker
14-07-19, 21:46
We've discussed Xue et al extensively on this site. This is not new material to us. It's always a good idea to check our research tool.

This is the last time we discussed Xue's work on the topic:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35705-Time-and-place-of-European-admixture-into-Ashkenazi-Jews?highlight=Xue

This was perhaps the first time:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31220-Carmi-Xue-paper-on-The-Time-and-Place-of-European-Gene-Flow-into-Ashkenazi-Jews?highlight=Xue




That's why I put an upper limit of about 60% for "European" ancestry, i.e. based on that paper, which is what you get if you read the quote you yourself provided carefully. You don't need Caucasus ancestry because there's plenty of that in the population sources from which Jews would have plausibly received it, i.e. Italian and Greek populations and Levant populations.

Firstly, you did not even mention my point about nearly every single study of Ashkenazi Jews leaving out
South Italian and Sicilian/Greek populations.
Contrasting Ashkenazi Jews with Northern Italians, Sardinians, French, Slavs, on one side and Jewish and and Middle eastern Groups on the other is fraudulent science and totally biased.

Focusing endlessly on Y-dna studies of Ashkenazim as though their 44 autosomes and mtDNA are utterly irrelevant is also scientific malpractice and subterfuge.

Secondly, one needs Caucuses ancestry in a reference population if a study is going to opine on previous studies that showed Ashkenazim affinity to Transcaucasus populations.


Before discussing the historical implications of our results, we point out two general lessons that emerge from the analysis. The first is that AJ genetics defies simple demographic theories. Hypotheses such as a wholly Khazar, Turkish, or Middle-Eastern origin have been disqualified [4 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5380316/#pgen.1006644.ref004)–7 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5380316/#pgen.1006644.ref007), 17 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5380316/#pgen.1006644.ref017), 55 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5380316/#pgen.1006644.ref055)], but even a model of a single Middle-Eastern and European admixture event cannot account for all of our observations.

Thirdly, 60% EU ancestry in Ashkenazi is not the "upper limit" of Ashkenazi EU admix; it one fairly well done study that has a realistic average.

I have no idea why you chose to be so rude to me.
I realize Xue's study isn't new.
My take on it certainly has some value compared to the tripe being slung on this very thread.

I'm 46 years old Angela, with a fatal stage 4 lung disease, and I don't need this negativity when I was sincerely trying to have a reasonable dialog.
Some sites actually deserve to have a massive influx of ****** and tin foil hat types.

This will be my last post.
Thank you.

Angela
14-07-19, 21:53
I'm sincerely sorry to hear about your illness. I wish you well.



If a little snarkiness crept into my tone it's because I took exception to what seemed to me an attitude that you and only you have the right answers, not anyone here, or on any site, or the academics, only you. That isn't the type of attitude which is conducive to the type of rational discussion you claim to want.

Before assuming that everyone here is the "tin foil hat" type, perhaps it isn't such a bad idea to search the site to see how people have approached it.

davef
15-07-19, 05:57
Firstly, you did not even mention my point about nearly every single study of Ashkenazi Jews leaving out
South Italian and Sicilian/Greek populations.
Contrasting Ashkenazi Jews with Northern Italians, Sardinians, French, Slavs, on one side and Jewish and and Middle eastern Groups on the other is fraudulent science and totally biased.

Focusing endlessly on Y-dna studies of Ashkenazim as though their 44 autosomes and mtDNA are utterly irrelevant is also scientific malpractice and subterfuge.

Secondly, one needs Caucuses ancestry in a reference population if a study is going to opine on previous studies that showed Ashkenazim affinity to Transcaucasus populations.



Thirdly, 60% EU ancestry in Ashkenazi is not the "upper limit" of Ashkenazi EU admix; it one fairly well done study that has a realistic average.

I have no idea why you chose to be so rude to me.
I realize Xue's study isn't new.
My take on it certainly has some value compared to the tripe being slung on this very thread.

I'm 46 years old Angela, with a fatal stage 4 lung disease, and I don't need this negativity when I was sincerely trying to have a reasonable dialog.
Some sites actually deserve to have a massive influx of ****** and tin foil hat types.

This will be my last post.
Thank you.
You have my thoughts! Live out your days to the fullest and don't let this disease prevent you from doing so!

I see your point. There's no IBD between European Jews and north Italians (and Sardinians were isolated on their island for who knows how long) so neither can be the source of Southern European ancestry in European Jews. The Xue paper did a better job using sicilians and Greeks who are clearly closer to the Hellenic populations who one would bet are responsible for the south euro in European Jews.



There are people on other forums who attempt to model European Jews using medieval north Italians from collegno but I don't understand why given the lack of IBD sharing (it's just an EEF connection-Im preeeety sure medieval north Italians were mostly EEF like the modern ones and their common EEF ancestry with European Jews was clocked as "medieval north Italian ancestry"). It would be better to use mycenaneans, the Iberian Eporiuon or the newly acquired philistine genomes to model the Southern European ancestry in European Jews.

Ygorcs
15-07-19, 09:19
I haven't yet had time to read the whole paper. However, if they had no "Judean" sample of, say, the pre-Maccabean period, how could we know that with any certainty? The Samaritans and Jews were bitter enemies not only because of religion but because the Jews believed the Samaritans had "foreign" ancestry. The Canaanites and later Phoenicians were not necessarily exactly the same as the Jews.

Previous studies dated the European+Levantine admixture in Ashkenazi Jews to some 1000-1500 years ago, but I have more than once seen Razib Khan, for instance, saying that these admixture dating estimates often pick up only the latest important admixture, not the earlier ones. I think it is unlikely most of the European admixture in Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews would have come from the ancient Philistines, because even the latter had a pretty diluted (~43%) estimated European ancestry, let alone the Jews, who would have certainly not mixed so much with them to the point of becoming virtually like them (I also doubt the Philistines were ever that numerous, they were mostly a seafaring people concentrated in a few coastal cities). But I could accept some of the European admixture in Jews preceding the Jewish diaspora in the Roman Empire era.

Ygorcs
15-07-19, 09:34
Everything I know of the Sea Peoples indicates that they were "groups" of people, not necessarily from one place. Plus, as they moved south and east they would change genetically.

One of those samples looks extremely Sardinian to me, and they have been connected to the Sea Peoples. Others could have come from southern Italy. Others could have been from the Aegean. I honestly don't know if at that period there's was a whole bunch of difference between these people.

The really intriguing bit is the yDna "L".

I'll really read the paper in depth later and compare to my books on the Sea Peoples.

The main thing to be reminded about the Philistines is that archaeologists had already long seen a lot of similarities of the Philistine material culture with that of the contemporary Aegean, including Minoan and particularly Mycenaean elements, so the Philistines may have absorbed some other elements of Sea Peoples from elsewhere, but the bulk of them or at least their most culturally influential groups were probably from Greece.

Jovialis
15-07-19, 18:00
A bigger issue is one mooted by many Biblical scholars: what were the origins of the Israelites? The standard narrative implies they were exogenous, with Abraham being from Ur (southern Mesopotamia), with a sojourn in Egypt. But most non-fundamentalist scholars believe that the Hebrews emerged organically out of the Canaanites. The relevance of genetics is clear then: at some point in the near future the origins of the people of Judaea will become more clear. My bet is that it does turn out that they’re mostly Canaanite, though I wouldn’t be surprised by some exogenous signal, as one sees with the Philistines, who by the time of genotyping seems to have been heavily Levantine, and eventually were likely absorbed..

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/07/04/the-genetic-origins-of-the-philistines/


I think so as well, the original Israelites were probably mostly Canaanite. With some exogenous Eurasian admixture, as it had been trickling in since 1800 BC.

Aaron1981
23-07-19, 02:34
What more is there to discuss here? R1b-M269+ was a singluar thrust by the northern Philistines from the Bronze Age collapse in the Aegean, and after a few hundred years local ancestry, or related ancestry inland, reclaimed the territory. YDNA L, T, J2, J1, or whatever iteration comes from the paper are all local and unrelated to the real Philistines.