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Tomenable
19-07-19, 00:54
DNA of prince Gleb Svyatoslavovich from the grave in Chernihiv cathedral was tested, he was I2a-Din not N1c:

Gleb Svyatoslavovich in this publication about Viking Age DNA is the sample VK542:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/703405v1

If I'm not mistaken, Gleb Svyatoslavovich was directly descended from Rurik himself.

And since he was I2a-Din, it makes the theory about I2a-Din Rurik more probable:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/36980-News-about-Rurikid-Y-DNA-Ingegerd-cheated-on-Yaroslav-I?p=552727&viewfull=1#post552727

In terms of autosomal DNA, Gleb Svyatoslavovich (VK542) was ca. 71% Slavic and 25% South Euro (Table S6):

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/07/17/703405/DC3/embed/media-3.xlsx?download=true

=====

Another Rurikid prince tested in this publication was Izyaslav Ingvarovich - his haplogroup was R1a-L1029.

In terms of autosomal DNA, Izyaslav Ingvarovich (buried in Lutsk) - sample VK541 - was over 95% Slavic.

Tomenable
19-07-19, 00:56
This is actual DNA extracted from bones in Rurikid dynasty's Medieval graves.

Not some N1c from modern people who claim descent from Rurik but can't prove there was no Non-Paternal Event along the way.

Tomenable
19-07-19, 01:41
Ingegerd's mother would be "Polish-like":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrid_of_the_Obotrites

Ingegerd's paternal grandmother as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Awi%C4%99tos%C5%82awa

Ingegerd could be >3/4 Polish-like autosomally.

hrvat22
19-07-19, 12:23
For I2a-Din It may be branch I-Y4460 which is expanding from Kiev area to Hungary, Baltic etc.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia/page5?p=572616&viewfull=1#post572616

https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y4460/


71.1% Poland, 24.6% ↑ Balkan, 1% ↓ Baltic

If this is an autosomal result for that person Balkan autosomal percentage is very likely based on today's living genetics which means that this is a connection in place where they all once lived together, ie. in the south Poland and southwestern Ukraine.

This is the same case when today we see many Ukrainians, Polish, Russians etc having a certain percentage of autosomal Balkan. Only connection that Russians, Ukrainians, Polish etc have with Croatians is in the area of the White Croatia (I2a dinaric, some branch of R1a) from where some common ancestors go to Russia etc, some towards Balkans, because when I wach dna results on youtube almost everyone (Rusian, Ukrainian, Slovakian etc) have some percentage of Balkan autosomalty and as far as I know there are no massive migrations from Balkans to those countries, only explanation is theirs common source which is in the old homeland.

http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf

A. Papadimitriou
20-07-19, 21:06
Nice. But "Polish-like" is not necessarily 'Slavic' exactly.

kmak
22-07-19, 00:49
this family belongs very different paternal ancestor.

oleg I of chernigov and his paternal descendants:R1a1(slavic or baltic branches)


iziaslav II of kiev paternal ancestor of Izyaslav Ingvarovich.

kmak
22-07-19, 00:50
this family belongs very different paternal ancestor.

oleg I of chernigov and his paternal descendants:R1a1(slavic or baltic branches)

iziaslav II of kiev and his paternal descendants:R1a-L1029(this exist over of page)

some rurikid have N1c1 and I2a Y dna.

kmak
22-07-19, 00:51
I never understand that this happened.

ThirdTerm
22-07-19, 03:02
some rurikid have N1c1 and I2a Y dna.


Rurik was a Varangian prince. The Varangians were of Viking stock from Scandinavia (I2a2) who ruled over the Finnic (N1c1) and Slavic (R1a) tribes. Rurik's Finnic (N1c1) ancestry can be explained by the fact that he was a Kven Viking. 68% of Rurik's descendants had hg N1c1, while some Rurikid princes carried I2a and R1a. For instance, Prince Stanislaw Antoni Czetwertynski was found to belong to the I2a2 haplogroup, which is typical for the native population of the Belarussian-Ukrainian Polissiya region. According to the Y-DNA haplogroup chart compiled by the Rurikid DNA Dynasty Project, some R1a Rurikid princes were descendants of Rurik on maternal branches (i.e. the Dunin clan), which is why they didn't inherit N1c1 through the paternal line.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/default.aspx?section=yresults

kmak
22-07-19, 03:37
Rurik was a Varangian prince. The Varangians were of Viking stock from Scandinavia (I2a) who ruled over the Finnic (N1c1) and Slavic (R1a) tribes. Rurik's Finnic (N1c1) ancestry can be explained by the fact that he was a Kven Viking. 68% of Rurik's descendants had hg N1c1, while some Rurikid princes carried I2a and R1a. For instance, Prince Stanislaw Antoni Czetwertynski was found to belong to the I2a2 haplogroup, which is typical for the native population of the Belarussian-Ukrainian Polissiya region.

original Y dna of rurikid dynasty is obscure. according the eupedia oleg I of chernigov have r1a1 and Vladimir II Monomakh
have N1c1 and this page say that some descendants of Vladimir II Monomakh have R1a-L1029. this is interesting but this family have more than this.

Sviatoslav II Iaroslavich is father of Gleb Svyatoslavich and oleg I of chernigov.

Gleb Svyatoslavich have I2a-Din Y dna.

oleg I of chernigov have R1a1 Y dna.

kmak
22-07-19, 03:38
same father different Y dna.

Dibran
22-07-19, 20:11
Rurik was a Varangian prince. The Varangians were of Viking stock from Scandinavia (I2a) who ruled over the Finnic (N1c1) and Slavic (R1a) tribes. Rurik's Finnic (N1c1) ancestry can be explained by the fact that he was a Kven Viking. 68% of Rurik's descendants had hg N1c1, while some Rurikid princes carried I2a and R1a. For instance, Prince Stanislaw Antoni Czetwertynski was found to belong to the I2a2 haplogroup, which is typical for the native population of the Belarussian-Ukrainian Polissiya region. According to the Y-DNA haplogroup chart compiled by the Rurikid DNA Dynasty Project, some R1a Rurikid princes were descendants of Rurik on maternal branches (i.e. the Dunin clan), which is why they didn't inherit N1c1 through the paternal line.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/default.aspx?section=yresults

I2a1b is not Scandinavian. It is just as Slavic, if not moreso(in the case of medieval migrations) than R1a is. It was also during the Viking and later Varangian age, which was hundreds of years after these lineages expanded and were assimilated and moved again. Nothing is certain yet other than both supposed Rurikids belonging to assumingly Slavic clades of both I2 & R1a.

Tomenable
23-07-19, 13:16
Right now this is what the evidence suggests:

Yaroslav the Wise and Ingegerd had three sons, and their descendants belong to:

Izyaslav - his modern descendants are I2a
Sviatoslav - no descendants survived to present-day (?), but Gleb (his son) was I2a (per this study)
Vsevolod - his modern descendants are N1c

^^^
And Vsevolod's N1c is the suspected product of Ingegerd's romance with Olaf II Haraldsson.

The theory about Vsevolod being Olaf's son: https://space-time.ru/space-time/article/view/2226-7271provr_st3-21.2015.71

IMO testing Olaf II Haraldsson's descendants (or his own bones, if they exist) should follow.

=====

But I understand that "Christian supremacists" will deny that Saint Anna could ever cheat: ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingegerd_Olofsdotter_of_Sweden#Sainthood

Fatherland
23-07-19, 14:29
When you look at it, seems more like a case of bastardé offsprings.

Joey37
23-07-19, 14:52
Protestants don't believe in Canonization like Catholics (and to a lesser extent, Orthodox) so leave us out of that, okay? I'm going with L1029 as the original Rurikid line until evidence from males that are further up in the line towards Rurik proves otherwise.

Dibran
23-07-19, 16:58
same father different Y dna.

Someones wife was a very bad girl.

JajarBingan
25-07-19, 12:53
DNA of prince Gleb Svyatoslavovich from the grave in Chernihiv cathedral was tested, he was I2a-Din not N1c:


All genetics aside weren't the Ruriks supposed to be non-Slavs though? I guess they were just acculturated locals in the end, instead of proper vikings.

Dibran
25-07-19, 14:20
All genetics aside weren't the Ruriks supposed to be non-Slavs though? I guess they were just acculturated locals in the end, instead of proper vikings.

Vikings are not a people but a cultural type associated with raiding parties. Perhaps you meant to say Scando-Germanic or Scandinavian. Viking culture is not unique to Scandinavia. There were Finnish, Baltic and Slavic vikings.

Additionally, regardless of the Slavic nature of the lineage, there is no knowing when it was assimilated. Considering Slavs entered those regions around Germany and Scandinavia hundreds of years prior to the Viking age, its possible the lineage was assimilated and moved as a non-slavic speaker. The idea that any haplogroup was only moving until industrialization with one language/culture is absolutely ludicrous.

JajarBingan
25-07-19, 14:38
Vikings are not a people but a cultural type associated with raiding parties. Perhaps you meant to say Scando-Germanic or Scandinavian. Viking culture is not unique to Scandinavia. There were Finnish, Baltic and Slavic vikings.

Additionally, regardless of the Slavic nature of the lineage, there is no knowing when it was assimilated. Considering Slavs entered those regions around Germany and Scandinavia hundreds of years prior to the Viking age, its possible the lineage was assimilated and moved as a non-slavic speaker. The idea that any haplogroup was only moving until industrialization with one language/culture is absolutely ludicrous.

I mean it's possible that it came from Scandinavia, but you'd guess that they left their seed there too. There aren't really any native Y3120 downstreamers there.

Dibran
26-07-19, 20:10
I mean it's possible that it came from Scandinavia, but you'd guess that they left their seed there too. There aren't really any native Y3120 downstreamers there.


Not necessarily saying it originated their, however old I2a1 was found in Motala/Sweden. Even though today all I2a1b in Scandinavians is from Proto-Slavs. Absence doesn't necessarily indicate it was never located there. A proto-Slav could have been assimilated through contacts with Scandinavians and Germans and later descendants moving with these lines under other cultures. Of course the I2a1/R1a vikings were heavily Polish like. Whilst not necessarily an indication of most Slavic like ancestry, its pretty obvious these were probably Rus in most cases. Rus Vikings were mixed with Slavs and some of the most in demand Varangians.

It was only later that large amounts of the guard were sourced predominantly from Scandinavians, and Germans.

mihaitzateo
26-07-19, 20:41
Gleb Svyatoslavovich is quite remote from mister Rurik.
All that is known for sure about mister Rurik is that he came from Sweden and had Old Norse as mother tongue.
Normally, he later learned East Slavic.
If Rurik's Y DNA was some I2-a-din that does not proves he was not Swedish ethnic, it could bring more evidence that Goths did actually came from NW Poland and NE Germany and they migrated there from South Sweden.
And Goths brought also I2-din and Dacians, which had also I2-din, were speaking East Germanic.
Aromanians have at least 20% I2-din and Aromanians inter-married, they never mixed to Slavic ethnics, how can I2-din be present at Aromanians/Vlachs?
Simple, from Dacians and Gothic tribes.

mihaitzateo
26-07-19, 20:58
I2a1b is not Scandinavian. It is just as Slavic, if not moreso(in the case of medieval migrations) than R1a is. It was also during the Viking and later Varangian age, which was hundreds of years after these lineages expanded and were assimilated and moved again. Nothing is certain yet other than both supposed Rurikids belonging to assumingly Slavic clades of both I2 & R1a.
I disagree with telling that I2-din is only Slavic.
See that Aromanians also have significant I2-din and they never mixed to Slavic speaking ethnics.
It must be from the Dacians and maybe Gothic tribes.

mihaitzateo
26-07-19, 21:02
Not necessarily saying it originated their, however old I2a1 was found in Motala/Sweden. Even though today all I2a1b in Scandinavians is from Proto-Slavs. Absence doesn't necessarily indicate it was never located there. A proto-Slav could have been assimilated through contacts with Scandinavians and Germans and later descendants moving with these lines under other cultures. Of course the I2a1/R1a vikings were heavily Polish like. Whilst not necessarily an indication of most Slavic like ancestry, its pretty obvious these were probably Rus in most cases. Rus Vikings were mixed with Slavs and some of the most in demand Varangians.

It was only later that large amounts of the guard were sourced predominantly from Scandinavians, and Germans.
Proto-Slavs should have been some South Baltic tribe.
They should have been different from the rest of Baltic-Slavic speakers by being more "Germanic-like" shifted as religion and customs.
Normally, they should have also had a different language.
For example, Slavs have also in their pagan religion a trickster god, as Loki is at Scandos (Veles).
They also have the custom to burn a log on winter solstice.
As Scandos have.
Slavs also had a World Tree, in their pagan religion, as Scandos had:
https://www.slavorum.org/world-tree-and-the-tree-of-life-among-old-slavs/
See, a lot of resemblances between ancient Slavs religion and Scandos religion.
So one can suppose that ancient Slavs were between Baltic-Slavic speakers and North Germanic tribes, as ethnicity.

arvistro
27-07-19, 08:04
Proto-Slavs should have been some South Baltic tribe.
They should have been different from the rest of Baltic-Slavic speakers by being more "Germanic-like" shifted as religion and customs.
Normally, they should have also had a different language.
For example, Slavs have also in their pagan religion a trickster god, as Loki is at Scandos (Veles).
They also have the custom to burn a log on winter solstice.
As Scandos have.
Slavs also had a World Tree, in their pagan religion, as Scandos had:
https://www.slavorum.org/world-tree-and-the-tree-of-life-among-old-slavs/
See, a lot of resemblances between ancient Slavs religion and Scandos religion.
So one can suppose that ancient Slavs were between Baltic-Slavic speakers and North Germanic tribes, as ethnicity.
Balts also have
a trickster in Velnias
custom to burn a log on winter solstice
concept of world tree (as per Latvian folk songs)
:)

mihaitzateo
27-07-19, 20:16
Well it seems that Early East Slavs were quite allied to the Vikings, especially to the Swedish Vikings.
Maybe Early East Slavs were not seeing the things regarding the ethnicity as we are seeing the things today.

td120
27-07-19, 22:33
I disagree with telling that I2-din is only Slavic.
See that Aromanians also have significant I2-din and they never mixed to Slavic speaking ethnics.
It must be from the Dacians and maybe Gothic tribes.

How do we know that?

Dibran
28-07-19, 05:23
W
I disagree with telling that I2-din is only Slavic.
See that Aromanians also have significant I2-din and they never mixed to Slavic speaking ethnics.
It must be from the Dacians and maybe Gothic tribes.

Perfectly natural that they have I2-Din. You really are not understanding the way this works. I’m not saying anyone with this line is a Slav, the same as an I1 African American is not an Anglo-Saxon. However the ancestor most probably was.

The problem you’re not understanding about genetics is the TMRCA. Overwhelming majority of I2a1b-Din, probably nearly 100 percent belongs under CTS10228, the complete entirely of which(outside rare occurrences) falls under Y3120 which dates to 200BC. ALL men of this line regardless of identification descend from ONE man only 2200 years ago. The Proto Slavic ethnogenesis was already under way where this line participated and expanded demographically with the Slavic migrations.

How then was multiple origins for the line? There are some clades that may be more common than others pointing to association with ethnic groups by subclade, but the truth is it’s earliest ancestor was likely Proto Slavic.

You’re wrong about Aromanians. They’re predominantly paleo-Balkan lineages such as R1b,J2b,J2a,V13. R1a/I2a1b form minorities among them. They’re closest to Albanians and Greeks with their YDNA breakdown.

You’re referring to Vlachs, which while Latin speaking and akin to Romanians are far more mixed than Aromanians.

Also you bring up Dacians but the truth is they weren’t Latin speakers and they were mostly no where to be found by the migration. , Aromanians from the southern Balkans including later Vlachs migrated to Romania and assimilated and mixed with the the Slavs and other tribes in the area becoming the Wallachian and later Romanian peoples whom evolved from a mixture of all these.

There may be clades that can be called Vlach or Romanian or Greek but ultimately their forefather was one man from Eastern Europe in 200bc.

mihaitzateo
28-07-19, 14:51
200 BC can be very well a Gothic ethnic, not a Slavic one.
Actually 200 BC fits much better the Gothic migrations, not the Slavic migrations.
Slavic migrations started around 600 AD, not around 200 BC.
We do not know when exactly the Goths started to move South but we know that the legend was telling that the Gothic tribes started to move from South Sweden, this is what Jordanes also tells in his book.
The archaelogical proofs are showing Goths in North Germany and in NW Poland from where they are migrating South.
In regards to mister Rurik, it is atested by various historians that Old Norse was spoken in Kievan Rus.
Also, it was said by various historical sources that mister Rurik came from Sweden.
Old Norse was not Gothic ,since Gothic is East Germanic language and if mister Rurik had some I2-din as paternal line, he could be from the persons from Sweden that still had I2-din.But he was a Swedish ethnic, that had as mother tongue Old Norse.
So we cannot tell that mister Rurik was a Slavic ethnic, just because he had I2-din paternal line.
See that is another thread opened by Tomenable, about Vikings DNA and some or more Vikings are scoring high Polish-like DNA admixture.
Some early Slavs and some Norse people might have lived together, somewhere, before Slavic migration started.
I think is without doubt that mister Rurik was actually a Swedish ethnic.

"According to the Primary Chronicle, Rurik was one of the Rus' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_(people)), a Varangian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian) tribe likened by the chronicler to Danes, Swedes, Angles, and Gotlanders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotlander)."
Gotlanders were the inhabitants of Gotland island, which is in the extreme South of Sweden.
So I2-din might have been rare, around 700 - 800 AD, in South of Sweden, but still present.

td120
28-07-19, 23:22
I see an overwhelming number of German , Scandinavian , Italian and Spanish etc. flags here:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/

Or maybe its carriers among Goths all perished in battle ...

mihaitzateo
29-07-19, 14:55
I see an overwhelming number of German , Scandinavian , Italian and Spanish etc. flags here:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/

Or maybe its carriers among Goths all perished in battle ...
Most samples of this I-Y3120 are found in Poland.Actually, those that appeared 2200 yrs ago are found in Poland.
According to the archaelogical proofs, the migration of the Gothic tribes started from NW Poland.
Also, we can see such samples at Greeks, in a significant percentage.
There is found 1 sample in Italy.
24 are found in Poland, 8 in Germany.
22 in Russia.
21 in Ukraine.
9 in Greece. Too many in Greece, to be from mixing with the Slavs.Is the Goths.8 from these 9 Y DNA found in Greece, are formed 2200 or 2100 years ago.
Is clearly the Goths, not the Slavs.
10 in Serbia.
4 in Croatia.Croatia is well known to have highest R1A from ex-Yugos which is clearly associated with the Slavs.
2 are found in Latvia.
5 in Finland.
So I would say that is actually the Goths and the Varangians that spread most this Y DNA not the Slavs.
In Poland is the Goths that remained there and became Slavizied.
In Ukraine and Russia is the Varangians mostly.
In Serbians,Croats,etc South-Slavs and Greeks is the Goths.

Only those that are formed 1400 YBP till 1300 YBP can be from Slavic migration.
If you look with attention, most are formed 2200 YBP or till 1800 YBP - those are surely Gothic tribes moves.
Those lines formed 1200 or 1000 YBP are from the moves of the Varangians.
For example these 2 samples found in Greece with 1150 YBP formation year:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y153039/
These are Varangians from the Varangian guard, that remained in Byzantine Empire or had children there.

These can be from Slavic ethnics migration but also from Goths that moved North:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A19454/

mihaitzateo
29-07-19, 19:45
DNA of prince Gleb Svyatoslavovich from the grave in Chernihiv cathedral was tested, he was I2a-Din not N1c:

Gleb Svyatoslavovich in this publication about Viking Age DNA is the sample VK542:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/703405v1

If I'm not mistaken, Gleb Svyatoslavovich was directly descended from Rurik himself.

And since he was I2a-Din, it makes the theory about I2a-Din Rurik more probable:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/36980-News-about-Rurikid-Y-DNA-Ingegerd-cheated-on-Yaroslav-I?p=552727&viewfull=1#post552727

In terms of autosomal DNA, Gleb Svyatoslavovich (VK542) was ca. 71% Slavic and 25% South Euro (Table S6):

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/07/17/703405/DC3/embed/media-3.xlsx?download=true

=====

Another Rurikid prince tested in this publication was Izyaslav Ingvarovich - his haplogroup was R1a-L1029.

In terms of autosomal DNA, Izyaslav Ingvarovich (buried in Lutsk) - sample VK541 - was over 95% Slavic.
A short question, how was Gleb Svyatoslavovich (VK542) was ca. 71% Slavic and 25% South Euro?
His mother is 100% Scando+ Slavic so the father of Gleb must be like 45-50% South Euro.
Or his mother was part South Europe?

td120
29-07-19, 21:44
Also, we can see such samples at Greeks, in a significant percentage.

9 in Greece. Too many in Greece, to be from mixing with the Slavs.Is the Goths.

Yep,Greeks have some serious germanic admixture.


8 from these 9 Y DNA found in Greece, are formed 2200 or 2100 years ago.
Is clearly the Goths, not the Slavs.

So I would say that is actually the Goths and the Varangians that spread most this Y DNA not the Slavs.
In Poland is the Goths that remained there and became Slavizied.
In Ukraine and Russia is the Varangians mostly.
In Serbians,Croats,etc South-Slavs and Greeks is the Goths.


And the carriers of I-Y3120 among Goths all perished in battle on their conquest westwards.
All Germany samples are from provinces bordering with Slavs(except for the Baden-Wuerttemberg sample which is probably later migration).A yes add one Swiss sample from Bern .

Where are the Italian,French,Iberian samples?

mihaitzateo
30-07-19, 12:52
Yep,Greeks have some serious germanic admixture.



And the carriers of I-Y3120 among Goths all perished in battle on their conquest westwards.
All Germany samples are from provinces bordering with Slavs(except for the Baden-Wuerttemberg sample which is probably later migration).A yes add one Swiss sample from Bern .

Where are the Italian,French,Iberian samples?
Some Visigoth sample from Spain are very close to our days Serbian.
Also,a Crimean Goth scores very close to our days Greeks.
So,that "Germanic" admixture might not have been so high in Gothic people.
And Goths might have not been that uniform on autosomal DNA.
Also, in the areas of Spain where Visigoths settled there is more R1A.
Because as there were Goths that become Slavs were Slavs that become Goths.
Anyway, this discussion is not relevant to this thread, because as I asked above, how is possible that Gleb Svyatoslavovich (VK542) was ca. 71% Slavic and 25% South Euro?
We seen some Varangians were mostly Slavic some mostly Scandos, some mixed.
25% South Euro is weird.

Fatherland
30-07-19, 22:22
Some Visigoth sample from Spain are very close to our days Serbian.
Also,a Crimean Goth scores very close to our days Greeks.
So,that "Germanic" admixture might not have been so high in Gothic people.
And Goths might have not been that uniform on autosomal DNA.
Also, in the areas of Spain where Visigoths settled there is more R1A.
Because as there were Goths that become Slavs were Slavs that become Goths.
Anyway, this discussion is not relevant to this thread, because as I asked above, how is possible that Gleb Svyatoslavovich (VK542) was ca. 71% Slavic and 25% South Euro?
We seen some Varangians were mostly Slavic some mostly Scandos, some mixed.
25% South Euro is weird.


That Visigoth sample was Balkan EV13 mixed with Goth maternal. Take away the Goth maternal side, then it plots pretty much at modern-day Albanians.

VladimirTaraskin
31-07-19, 09:05
Some Visigoth sample from Spain are very close to our days Serbian.
Also,a Crimean Goth scores very close to our days Greeks.
So,that "Germanic" admixture might not have been so high in Gothic people.
And Goths might have not been that uniform on autosomal DNA.
Also, in the areas of Spain where Visigoths settled there is more R1A.
Because as there were Goths that become Slavs were Slavs that become Goths.
Anyway, this discussion is not relevant to this thread, because as I asked above, how is possible that Gleb Svyatoslavovich (VK542) was ca. 71% Slavic and 25% South Euro?
We seen some Varangians were mostly Slavic some mostly Scandos, some mixed.
25% South Euro is weird.




Among the Byzantine authors, the Gothic author Jordanes in his work Getica (written in 550 or 551 AD) describes the Veneti as a "populous nation" whose dwellings begin at the sources of the Vistula and occupy "a great expanse of land". He describes them as the ancestors also of the Sclavenes (a people who appeared on the Byzantine frontier in the early 6th century and who are believed to have been the early South Slavs) and of the Antes. Specifically, he states that the Slavs and the Antes used to be called the Veneti but are now "chiefly" (though, by implication, not exclusively) called Slavs and Antes. He places the Slavs north of a line from the Dniestr to Lake Musianus the location of which is unclear but which has been variously identified with Lake Constance, the Tisa–Danube marshes or the Danube delta. He places the Antes to the east of the Slavs.
Later in Getica he returns to the Veneti stating, again, that though "off-shoots of one stock [these people] have now three names, that is Veneti, Antes and Sclaveni" and noting that they, at one time, had been conquered by the Goths under Ermanaric. Consistent with the view that the Veneti were an umbrella term for these three peoples, he later also recalls the defeat of the Antes at the hands of a Gothic chieftain named Vinitharius, i.e., conqueror of the Veneti.


How did the South European ethnonym pass to the Slavs? Only through the mixing of the Adriatic Veneti with the Slavs. Nothing else. And this mixing was only with I2a-din. That's the simplest explanation. As usual it is the correct one.

hrvat22
31-07-19, 21:24
Most samples of this I-Y3120 are found in Poland.Actually, those that appeared 2200 yrs ago are found in Poland.
According to the archaelogical proofs, the migration of the Gothic tribes started from NW Poland.
Also, we can see such samples at Greeks, in a significant percentage.
There is found 1 sample in Italy.
24 are found in Poland, 8 in Germany.
22 in Russia.
21 in Ukraine.
9 in Greece. Too many in Greece, to be from mixing with the Slavs.Is the Goths.8 from these 9 Y DNA found in Greece, are formed 2200 or 2100 years ago.
Is clearly the Goths, not the Slavs.
10 in Serbia.
4 in Croatia.Croatia is well known to have highest R1A from ex-Yugos which is clearly associated with the Slavs.
2 are found in Latvia.
5 in Finland.
So I would say that is actually the Goths and the Varangians that spread most this Y DNA not the Slavs.
In Poland is the Goths that remained there and became Slavizied.
In Ukraine and Russia is the Varangians mostly.
In Serbians,Croats,etc South-Slavs and Greeks is the Goths.

Only those that are formed 1400 YBP till 1300 YBP can be from Slavic migration.
If you look with attention, most are formed 2200 YBP or till 1800 YBP - those are surely Gothic tribes moves.
Those lines formed 1200 or 1000 YBP are from the moves of the Varangians.
For example these 2 samples found in Greece with 1150 YBP formation year:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y153039/
These are Varangians from the Varangian guard, that remained in Byzantine Empire or had children there.

These can be from Slavic ethnics migration but also from Goths that moved North:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A19454/

Croats for now coming from White Croatia.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia

One of genetic candidate for Varangians is I2a branch I-Y4460.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia/page5?p=572616&viewfull=1#post572616

mihaitzateo
31-07-19, 23:01
Among the Byzantine authors, the Gothic author Jordanes in his work Getica (written in 550 or 551 AD) describes the Veneti as a "populous nation" whose dwellings begin at the sources of the Vistula and occupy "a great expanse of land". He describes them as the ancestors also of the Sclavenes (a people who appeared on the Byzantine frontier in the early 6th century and who are believed to have been the early South Slavs) and of the Antes. Specifically, he states that the Slavs and the Antes used to be called the Veneti but are now "chiefly" (though, by implication, not exclusively) called Slavs and Antes. He places the Slavs north of a line from the Dniestr to Lake Musianus the location of which is unclear but which has been variously identified with Lake Constance, the Tisa–Danube marshes or the Danube delta. He places the Antes to the east of the Slavs.
Later in Getica he returns to the Veneti stating, again, that though "off-shoots of one stock [these people] have now three names, that is Veneti, Antes and Sclaveni" and noting that they, at one time, had been conquered by the Goths under Ermanaric. Consistent with the view that the Veneti were an umbrella term for these three peoples, he later also recalls the defeat of the Antes at the hands of a Gothic chieftain named Vinitharius, i.e., conqueror of the Veneti.


How did the South European ethnonym pass to the Slavs? Only through the mixing of the Adriatic Veneti with the Slavs. Nothing else. And this mixing was only with I2a-din. That's the simplest explanation. As usual it is the correct one.
Well the Veneti can be same with the Wends which were the Poles ancestors.
Antes were East of Wends/Veneti ancestors of Eastern Slavs.

torzio
01-08-19, 05:19
Well the Veneti can be same with the Wends which were the Poles ancestors.
Antes were East of Wends/Veneti ancestors of Eastern Slavs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleti

The original wends
They are involved in the wendish crusade against the saxons

mihaitzateo
01-08-19, 21:05
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleti

The original wends
They are involved in the wendish crusade against the saxons
And who were the Veneti?
It seems that Jordanes refers to Vistula Venethi, not to the people from NE Italy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
Back to the subject, that Southern Y DNA seems that Gleb Svyatoslavovich might have had a father from South Slavs which was not his Viking/Polish/Eastern Slav (Sviatoslav II Iaroslavich) supposed father.
If would have been a Greek or a Roman, would have brought some Western DNA also.

Another possibility is that the mother of Gleb Svyatoslavovich was a South Slavic woman or even Ukrainian woman, that had brought that Southern DNA.

The name Sviatoslav II Iaroslavich makes clear that the origin was Viking of Polish or Eastern Slav genetics, see the "Slavich" from the family name.
So these Varangians might have been Swedish native speakers, but it seems they were Polish or Eastern Slavs, as genetics.
So very likely, a North Slavic tribe that have joined the Swedish Vikings, got assimilated as Swedish ethnics and hundreds of years later, some of them came as rulers of Russia.

torzio
01-08-19, 23:02
And who were the Veneti?
It seems that Jordanes refers to Vistula Venethi, not to the people from NE Italy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
Back to the subject, that Southern Y DNA seems that Gleb Svyatoslavovich might have had a father from South Slavs which was not his Viking/Polish/Eastern Slav (Sviatoslav II Iaroslavich) supposed father.
If would have been a Greek or a Roman, would have brought some Western DNA also.

Another possibility is that the mother of Gleb Svyatoslavovich was a South Slavic woman or even Ukrainian woman, that had brought that Southern DNA.

The name Sviatoslav II Iaroslavich makes clear that the origin was Viking of Polish or Eastern Slav genetics, see the "Slavich" from the family name.
So these Varangians might have been Swedish native speakers, but it seems they were Polish or Eastern Slavs, as genetics.
So very likely, a North Slavic tribe that have joined the Swedish Vikings, got assimilated as Swedish ethnics and hundreds of years later, some of them came as rulers of Russia.

I know about Jordanes, who was a goth....the vistula venethi is wrong terminology.....he speaks about the Venedi, a west-baltic tribe living on the corner of the baltic sea and the nogat river. Their neighbours the goths living on both sides of the lower vistula river absorbed them as well as there neighbours the Aestii circa 200AD and then together marched to the black sea.
They are an insignificant tribe

torzio
01-08-19, 23:05
The veleti tribe , who are the original wends are a slav people......they are the first slav people to arrive in poland, coming in from the upper vistula river area.......upper as in slovakia area

Joey37
01-08-19, 23:32
The Veneti were the root of the future West Slavic people. The Goths spread some of their West Baltic R1a into the Mediterranean, as did the Vandals. The idea that the Slavic people magically appeared out of the Pripyat swamps in 500 AD is outdated and wrong.

torzio
02-08-19, 00:17
The Veneti were the root of the future West Slavic people. The Goths spread some of their West Baltic R1a into the Mediterranean, as did the Vandals. The idea that the Slavic people magically appeared out of the Pripyat swamps in 500 AD is outdated and wrong.
Veleti are slavs , the most numerous
Veneti/venedi are west-balts , a insignifixant tribe...they eventually became the old-prussian warmian tribe

A. Papadimitriou
07-08-19, 14:18
W

Perfectly natural that they have I2-Din. You really are not understanding the way this works. I’m not saying anyone with this line is a Slav, the same as an I1 African American is not an Anglo-Saxon. However the ancestor most probably was.

The problem you’re not understanding about genetics is the TMRCA. Overwhelming majority of I2a1b-Din, probably nearly 100 percent belongs under CTS10228, the complete entirely of which(outside rare occurrences) falls under Y3120 which dates to 200BC. ALL men of this line regardless of identification descend from ONE man only 2200 years ago. The Proto Slavic ethnogenesis was already under way where this line participated and expanded demographically with the Slavic migrations.


These estimates may change though and they have changed in the past too.
Concerning 'paleo-Balkan' lineages you should see the subclades. Even if an haplogroup is 'paleo-Balkan' back migrations are possible.
A 'Greek' lineage returning to Greece as a Goth, Bulgar, Slav,Vlach, Albanian and whatnot is something that could have happened.

Johane Derite
07-08-19, 15:41
Venetic people were not slavs or balts. Their language is an isolate branch in between italo-celtic and illyric branch.

kmak
10-08-19, 17:55
other rurikid member such as vladimir the great,ivan the teribble has tested?

mihaitzateo
13-08-19, 12:49
The most weird thing is that Gleb Svyatoslavovich has 25% South Euro autosomal DNA while his mother was, according to Tomenable, Polish-like, so 100% North Europe and Baltic.
It results that Gleb's father had 40-50% South Euro if Gleb was not adopted.
@Tomenable : how do you explain this?

MOESAN
15-08-19, 23:25
It's not sure the southern Veneti language was in between Celtic and Italic, it seems they were rather on the Italic side, the Latino-Faliscan one, and was an archaic form stayed longer in North in proximity of proto-Germanic (according to B. Sergent, early Italic kept in its first stage more ties with proto-Germanic and with proto-Slavic than did Celtic) ; things are not clear at all; I don't exclude first veneti being part of Lusacian culture at Urnfields times (West the Vistula/Wisla), separated from ancestors of Qw- Latins by the coming of Osco-Umbrians (P- Italics) : here I 'd need the help of a knowledged archeologist; it's possible the Germanics applied the name of this ethny to other close neighbours in Poland, a bit further East, among them Balto-Slavic tribes, or proto-Baltic and/or proto-Slavs; when true Veneti left the North to go towards South, under diverse pressions, this name, evolved in Venedi, applied later to the remnant of neighbours, possibly Balts and/or Slavs; this way of unprecise namings is common, Germanics applied the 'walah' terminology to a lot of foreign pops everywhere when at first it qualified a Celtic tribe only! (Welsh, Wallach... even maybe Gaul) - this Venedi can explain the Wend term, applied today to a Slavic group in East-Germany -

torzio
16-08-19, 01:51
Venetic people were not slavs or balts. Their language is an isolate branch in between italo-celtic and illyric branch.
Venedi are on the baltic sea and are a west-baltic people,
Briitany veneti are in NW france and are a gaulish people and then you have adriatic veneti.....which are called venetic in BC times......although italians call them Paleo-veneti
Yes they are mixed with histri illyrians , nori illyrians and libiurnian illyrians

torzio
16-08-19, 04:24
It's not sure the southern Veneti language was in between Celtic and Italic, it seems they were rather on the Italic side, the Latino-Faliscan one, and was an archaic form stayed longer in North in proximity of proto-Germanic (according to B. Sergent, early Italic kept in its first stage more ties with proto-Germanic and with proto-Slavic than did Celtic) ; things are not clear at all; I don't exclude first veneti being part of Lusacian culture at Urnfields times (West the Vistula/Wisla), separated from ancestors of Qw- Latins by the coming of Osco-Umbrians (P- Italics) : here I 'd need the help of a knowledged archeologist; it's possible the Germanics applied the name of this ethny to other close neighbours in Poland, a bit further East, among them Balto-Slavic tribes, or proto-Baltic and/or proto-Slavs; when true Veneti left the North to go towards South, under diverse pressions, this name, evolved in Venedi, applied later to the remnant of neighbours, possibly Balts and/or Slavs; this way of unprecise namings is common, Germanics applied the 'walah' terminology to a lot of foreign pops everywhere when at first it qualified a Celtic tribe only! (Welsh, Wallach... even maybe Gaul) - this Venedi can explain the Wend term, applied today to a Slavic group in East-Germany -

if you have a more recent paper than this below......let me know
The only issue I have is that the town Oderzo was an shared illyrian/venetic trading town.........it was a place amber was traded , as the illyrians got the amber in modern Vienna and traded in oderzo

https://www.academia.edu/5857512/On_the_linguistic_classification_of_Venetic?email_ work_card=view-paper

mihaitzateo
16-08-19, 17:16
I do not think people from Veneto , Italy have significant East European or NE European or Baltic admixture, that the Slavs brought.

Now back to the thread, that Southern DMA of Gleb is West/East Balkanic ?

MOESAN
16-08-19, 20:23
if you have a more recent paper than this below......let me know
The only issue I have is that the town Oderzo was an shared illyrian/venetic trading town.........it was a place amber was traded , as the illyrians got the amber in modern Vienna and traded in oderzo

https://www.academia.edu/5857512/On_the_linguistic_classification_of_Venetic?email_ work_card=view-paper

Thanks for the link: I had a glance at it, very quickly; it needs more acute reading to weight the diverse ressemblances/differences - ATW you 're right: Sergent's book is of just before the 2000's, yours is of 2012 (seemingly) -

Dibran
20-09-19, 15:02
I see an overwhelming number of German , Scandinavian , Italian and Spanish etc. flags here:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/

Or maybe its carriers among Goths all perished in battle ...

Overwhelming?? Where did you get Spanish?? This is the breakdown not including unknown kits on Y-full. All come from one man in 200BC....

Northern/Western/South Western Europe - Italy(2), Sweden(3), Germany(8), Switzerland(1)

Central/East/North-East/South-East Europe - Russia(25), Poland(22), Ukraine(19), Serbia(12), Bulgaria(10), Bosnia(10), Belarus(9), Croatia(9), Hungary(7), Montenegro(6), Czech(6), Slovak(4), Romania(4), Moldova(3), Lithuania(3), Latvia(2),

Greece(12 - most of which forms an older Greek specific branch shared with E-European Jews)

Also, Y-Full only listed full genome sequenced tests uploaded. There are testers in FTDNA who arent on Y-Full, including YSEQ testers. I2a1b-CTS10228 is overwhelmingly dominated by Slavs.

Even L1029 is more common in west Slavs, Germans, Scandinavians with a wider spread all over europe, even a couple cases in England and you don't see anyone denying its demographic expansion with Slavs. The case is even more obvious with I2a1b.

Dibran
20-09-19, 15:06
..............

Dude, just stop. You have been educated, and spoon-fed detail by detail on I2a1b-Din and its Slavic origin. Its earliest ancestor being in western europe during the neolithic doesn't mean they stayed there. Almost 100 percent of I2a1b men today are all Slavs and most of these men descend from one man in 200BC. Beginning to sound like a broken record. On 2 genetics sites, spewing your same nonsense that people who have way more understanding of genetics than you or me have told you already.

I2a1b is big in Romania, we get it. You don't wan't to acknowledge Slavs had a big impact in your land. Don't think anyone falls for your game though. You're willfully ignorant.

Dibran
20-09-19, 15:21
These estimates may change though and they have changed in the past too.
Concerning 'paleo-Balkan' lineages you should see the subclades. Even if an haplogroup is 'paleo-Balkan' back migrations are possible.
A 'Greek' lineage returning to Greece as a Goth, Bulgar, Slav,Vlach, Albanian and whatnot is something that could have happened.

Could have sure. These are not one of those cases. The only branch we can say had no participation in Slavic migrations may well be the Greek Isolate branch shared with some East European Jews.

Nearly 100 percent of I2a1b carriers are Slavic, and even the non-Slavs have common ancestors within the last 1500-2000 years. The only Paleo-Balkan lines alive today that are I2, are I2a2a clades minimally found in Albanians, Greeks, and Bulgarians. The Greek cluster could have entered the Balkans earlier with a Proto-Slavic/Balto-Slavic guy that could have arrived with Bastarnae into Macedonia during the time of Phillip.

This is largely specific to mostly Greeks for now. So old Baltic, and Proto-Slavic guys who joined Greek colonies on the black sea coast could have also brought it to Greece.

This isn't the case for the rest of it which matches perfectly with the Slavic migration, even more so than some Balto-Slavic R1a branches. People just aren't comfortable with the idea they don't descend from their paleo-proto-ancestor of their nation. Y-Chromosome is just a fraction of thousands and thousands of Y & X ancestors who contributed generations of genes to us.

My own line is probably Proto-Slavic too. Yet I have a Albanian haplotype/founder effect. Last 1200 years ancestor was most likely Albanian, before that most likely Slavic. So my ancestors participated in the late proto-Albanian/Albanian ethnogenesis and expanded from there. Yet, his ancestor was not Illyrian. Every ethnogenesis involved mixing.

No point in making mental hurdles. Doesn't make anyone special to be descended from this guy or the next. Cool yea, special no. Every man makes himself. I am sure there are plenty pathetic ****** who descend from Kings and great men descended from the poor or down trodden. People cling to the past. Those people never knew or had anything to do with us.

MOESAN
20-09-19, 22:37
if you have a more recent paper than this below......let me know
The only issue I have is that the town Oderzo was an shared illyrian/venetic trading town.........it was a place amber was traded , as the illyrians got the amber in modern Vienna and traded in oderzo

https://www.academia.edu/5857512/On_the_linguistic_classification_of_Venetic?email_ work_card=view-paper

I read it. Interesting. I stay puzzled, sure of nothing.
the paper speaks of the Celtic Veneti of Brittany. What it says is often true, but the explanations of the causes of breton Venetic (Vannetais or Gwenedeg) appearent closeness to old Venetic trends are a bit too quickly made. Gwenedeg is the dialect I speak, and the [dj] to[zh] evolution in it is exceptionnel and purely individual, under French evolution. And French as a whole is closer to modern Slavic phonetic evolutions than ths Breton dialect, you can trust in me. So the continental Celts had some ties with Slavs? Or it's rather a similar substrata influence? Or it is just hazard (I don't like it, it's true).

MOESAN
20-09-19, 22:40
"to rely on me", better!
ATW, I'm not sure at all old continental Venetic influence is responsible for Slavics evolution. I doubt.