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bicicleur
26-07-19, 21:17
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334706747_Ancient_Genomes_Reveal_Yamnaya-Related_Ancestry_and_a_Potential_Source_of_Indo-European_Speakers_in_Iron_Age_Tianshan?fbclid=IwAR 1Wt6yIR13teWlrMTkR23Gmilfr7JFkuSKu8H9D2ZHxSAzvpGJW ElcRIoc

Ancient Genomes Reveal Yamnaya-Related Ancestry and a Potential Source of Indo-European Speakers in Iron Age Tianshan
Article (PDF Available) · July 2019 with 29 Reads
Cite this publication
Chao Ning
15.81Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Chuan-Chao Wang
34.93Xiamen University
+ 9
Shizhu Gao
Yang Yang
Show more authors
Abstract
Recent studies of early Bronze Age human ge- nomes revealed a massive population expansion by individuals-related to the Yamnaya culture, from the Pontic Caspian steppe into Western and Eastern Eurasia, likely accompanied by the spread of Indo-European languages [1–5]. The south eastern extent of this migration is currently not known. Modern-day human populations from the Xinjiang region in northwestern China show a com- plex population history, with genetic links to both Eastern and Western Eurasia [6–10]. However, due to the lack of ancient genomic data, it remains unclear which source populations contributed to the Xinjiang population and what was the timing and the number of admixture events. Here, we report the first genome-wide data of 10 ancient in- dividuals from northeastern Xinjiang. They are dated to around 2,200 years ago and were found at the Iron Age Shirenzigou site. We find them to be already genetically admixed between Eastern and Western Eurasians. We also find that the ma- jority of the East Eurasian ancestry in the Shirenzi- gou individuals is-related to northeastern Asian populations, while the West Eurasian ancestry is best presented by $20% to 80% Yamnaya-like ancestry. Our data thus suggest a Western Eurasian steppe origin for at least part of the ancient Xinjiang population. Our findings further- more support a Yamnaya-related origin for the now extinct Tocharian languages in the Tarim Ba- sin, in southern Xinjiang

Dibran
27-07-19, 01:08
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334706747_Ancient_Genomes_Reveal_Yamnaya-Related_Ancestry_and_a_Potential_Source_of_Indo-European_Speakers_in_Iron_Age_Tianshan?fbclid=IwAR 1Wt6yIR13teWlrMTkR23Gmilfr7JFkuSKu8H9D2ZHxSAzvpGJW ElcRIoc

Ancient Genomes Reveal Yamnaya-Related Ancestry and a Potential Source of Indo-European Speakers in Iron Age Tianshan
Article (PDF Available) · July 2019 with 29 Reads
Cite this publication
Chao Ning
15.81Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Chuan-Chao Wang
34.93Xiamen University
+ 9
Shizhu Gao
Yang Yang
Show more authors
Abstract
Recent studies of early Bronze Age human ge- nomes revealed a massive population expansion by individuals-related to the Yamnaya culture, from the Pontic Caspian steppe into Western and Eastern Eurasia, likely accompanied by the spread of Indo-European languages [1–5]. The south eastern extent of this migration is currently not known. Modern-day human populations from the Xinjiang region in northwestern China show a com- plex population history, with genetic links to both Eastern and Western Eurasia [6–10]. However, due to the lack of ancient genomic data, it remains unclear which source populations contributed to the Xinjiang population and what was the timing and the number of admixture events. Here, we report the first genome-wide data of 10 ancient in- dividuals from northeastern Xinjiang. They are dated to around 2,200 years ago and were found at the Iron Age Shirenzigou site. We find them to be already genetically admixed between Eastern and Western Eurasians. We also find that the ma- jority of the East Eurasian ancestry in the Shirenzi- gou individuals is-related to northeastern Asian populations, while the West Eurasian ancestry is best presented by $20% to 80% Yamnaya-like ancestry. Our data thus suggest a Western Eurasian steppe origin for at least part of the ancient Xinjiang population. Our findings further- more support a Yamnaya-related origin for the now extinct Tocharian languages in the Tarim Ba- sin, in southern Xinjiang

Any Y-DNA reads?

Joey37
27-07-19, 02:35
I saw it in Eurogenes...R1b and Q.

Angela
27-07-19, 04:24
Fascinating stuff, Bicicleur. Thanks.

A. Papadimitriou
27-07-19, 07:17
The samples are not from the 'Tocharian' speaking area.

bicicleur
27-07-19, 07:39
Our results suggest that the Yamnaya and/or Afanasievo-relatedancestry expanded further south through the Dzungarian Basininto the northern slope of the Tianshan Mountains in Xinjiangsince at least the second millennium BCE and thus support the‘‘Steppe hypothesis’’ for the early peopling of Xinjiang.
their samples are only 2200 years old
and they conclude about an expansion more than 3000 years old?

johen
27-07-19, 18:48
Our results suggest that the Yamnaya and/or Afanasievo-relatedancestry expanded further south through the Dzungarian Basininto the northern slope of the Tianshan Mountains in Xinjiangsince at least the second millennium BCE and thus support the‘‘Steppe hypothesis’’ for the early peopling of Xinjiang.
their samples are only 2200 years old
and they conclude about an expansion more than 3000 years old?
ya, it is a problem to connect the samples to afanasievo expansion and even tocharian. As Mallory said in his cloud paper, the afanasievo culture has not any cereal samples, while tocharian has farming language. Moreover, if afanasievo expanded, the afanasievo culture could be found in northern china as okunevo petroglyph in there.

However, it is possible of the R1b samples to originate in afanasievo. We already have pontic scythian paper that the scythian R1b is close to afanasievo, not yamna. So the R1b people seems to be related with tianshan Hun or saka.

http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/public/2019_Ning_Figure2a.jpg

bicicleur
27-07-19, 20:35
ya, it is a problem to connect the samples to afanasievo expansion and even tocharian. As Mallory said in his cloud paper, the afanasievo culture has not any cereal samples, while tocharian has farming language. Moreover, if afanasievo expanded, the afanasievo culture could be found in northern china as okunevo petroglyph in there.
However, it is possible of the R1b samples to originate in afanasievo. We already have pontic scythian paper that the scythian R1b is close to afanasievo, not yamna. So the R1b people seems to be related with tianshan Hun or saka.
http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/public/2019_Ning_Figure2a.jpg
the Y-DNA is R1b-M269, possibly Z2103
and autosomal it is lacking EEF, just like Yamna, but unlike Sintashta or Andronovo

their Yamna ancestry is very likely
the question is, how do they know these people were already in the Shirenzigou area in the 2nd millenium BC?

Silesian
27-07-19, 21:36
http://images.devs-on.net/Image/0ATVqLYBhsPoBNlS-Region.pnghttp://images.devs-on.net/Image/IpBI9slJg85TU3ol-Region.png

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/tocharians-pca-admixture.png

Migration of R1b and Q1a1b from North? Just how did M15-1 and M15-2 acquire so much Yamnaya component even after . 3300 to 2500 BC?

bicicleur
28-07-19, 08:03
http://images.devs-on.net/Image/0ATVqLYBhsPoBNlS-Region.pnghttp://images.devs-on.net/Image/IpBI9slJg85TU3ol-Region.png

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/tocharians-pca-admixture.png

Migration of R1b and Q1a1b from North? Just how did M15-1 and M15-2 acquire so much Yamnaya component even after . 3300 to 2500 BC?

check the location of Shirenzigou
via the Dzungarian Basin it is connected to the Altaï steppe
it is north of the Gobi desert which seperates it from the Gansu corridor and China proper

maybe they were an Afanasievo/Okunovo or even Yamna/Okunovo mixture,
fugitives for incoming Andronovo

Silesian
28-07-19, 13:03
check the location of Shirenzigou
via the Dzungarian Basin it is connected to the Altaï steppe
it is north of the Gobi desert which seperates it from the Gansu corridor and China proper

maybe they were an Afanasievo/Okunovo or even Yamna/Okunovo mixture,
fugitives for incoming Andronovo
https://postimg.cc/zLjjqk9s

A prime piece of real estate with connection to the steppe. You would think there would be plenty of chariot and horse burials like Sintashta-Arkaim culture 2100–1800 BCE in an expansion 1000 years prior.
The samples look like they were taken nearly around the center of Tocharian A and Tocharian B languages, were spoken. I have really no clue about where the ydna Q samples originate. What branch the R1b samples fall under?
https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/tocharians-y-dna-mtdna.png
http://images.devs-on.net/Image/Y4B9f0adMKJnQguI-Region.png

Joey37
28-07-19, 14:35
Z2103, most likely. The haplogroup listed is M269, not very helpful.

bicicleur
28-07-19, 15:58
first people in the Tarim Basin periphery oasises arrived ca 4 ka

11239

Aaron1981
28-07-19, 16:29
The samples are not from the 'Tocharian' speaking area.

What's the Tocharian speaking area? Were you there? Maybe you're not a real Greek.

johen
28-07-19, 19:22
https://postimg.cc/zLjjqk9s

A prime piece of real estate with connection to the steppe. You would think there would be plenty of chariot and horse burials like Sintashta-Arkaim culture 2100–1800 BCE in an expansion 1000 years prior.
The samples look like they were taken nearly around the center of Tocharian A and Tocharian B languages, were spoken. I have really no clue about where the ydna Q samples originate. What branch the R1b samples fall under?

http://images.devs-on.net/Image/Y4B9f0adMKJnQguI-Region.png

The culture arrived at china bronze with tons of PIE, penetrating the tocharian zone and gansu corridor.
As Karl zettmar said, okunevo petroglyph was already found in northern china and even near IVC.

Unfortunately, the carrier of the culture seems to be Q by Karasuk or unstoppable seima turbino.
And they created civilization like maya civilization, hence, Harvard scholar K. C. Chang mentioned that chinese and mayan people would have same ancestor. Same thing happened in Vedic civilization.

So chinese scholar should focus upon their bronze age culture to solve IE migration. Furthermore I always think that it is very wrong to seperate ancient people in central asia into west or east eurasian people like modern people by modern genetic tool. Does modern scholar know how they classified themselves?


soviet scholars are convinced that the custom of depositing chariots in the graves of the shang rulers came from the west, as well as the ceremonial significance of the the chariot itself. the finds of sintashta, where the wheels are standing in furrows carefully dug into the soil of the grave-chamber(exaclty in china) as well as the conventionalized rock carvings, confirm this thesis.
http://hl-128-171-57-22.library.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/10125/16897/1/AP-v24n2-145-162.pdf

Silesian
28-07-19, 19:48
The culture arrived at china bronze with tons of PIE, penetrating the tocharian zone and gansu corridor.
As Karl zettmar said, okunevo petroglyph was already found in northern china and even near IVC.

Unfortunately, the carrier of the culture seems to be Q by Karasuk or unstoppable seima turbino.
And they created civilization like maya civilization, hence, Harvard scholar K. C. Chang mentioned that chinese and mayan people would have same ancestor. Same thing happened in Vedic civilization.

So chinese scholar should focus upon their bronze age culture to solve IE migration. Furthermore I always think that it is very wrong to seperate ancient people in central asia into west or east eurasian people like modern people by modern genetic tool. Does modern scholar know how they classified themselves?


http://hl-128-171-57-22.library.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/10125/16897/1/AP-v24n2-145-162.pdf. They did not find wheeled chariots at the site they gathered R 1b samples.However the Tocharians had a word for wheel/wagons concept. Yamnaya-/Afansievo must have had wagons even prior to 5000YBP or 1000 years before Sintashta +/-. to travel the great distances as steppe pastoralists.

Angela
28-07-19, 20:17
. They did not find wheeled chariots at the site they gathered R 1b samples.However the Tocharians had a word for wheel/wagons concept. Yamnaya-/Afansievo must have had wagons even prior to 5000YBP or 1000 years before Sintashta +/-. to travel the great distances as steppe pastoralists.

Perhaps, but not always, I think, pulled by horses. Weren't there a few papers that found a lot of Corded Ware carts were pulled by cows or oxen?

Silesian
28-07-19, 21:04
Perhaps, but not always, I think, pulled by horses. Weren't there a few papers that found a lot of Corded Ware carts were pulled by cows or oxen? Interesting, do you know the age and location?

johen
28-07-19, 21:38
. Yamnaya-/Afansievo must have had wagons even prior to 5000YBP or 1000 years before Sintashta +/-. to travel the great distances as steppe pastoralists.
I think we already discussed in the thread of Caucasus paper that yamna people was not mobile, but wagon burial was just a elite culture by archaeology. Moreover, no wagon was found in afanasievo, but elongated skull elite culture like catacomb, scythian, samartian, and hun.

johen
28-07-19, 23:55
PIE mark?

2nd person in Wall painting of "Tocharian Princes" from Cave of the Sixteen Sword-Bearers:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/qizildonors.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/qizildonors.jpghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/QizilDonors.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/MeRHpLd.jpg

okunevo symbol at the bottom of pottery:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Jia/publication/275275447/figure/fig9/AS:[email protected]/Typological-chronology-of-the-Okunevo.png

kalash mark:
http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/la-1223-pin06-970x500.jpg

Angela
29-07-19, 03:43
Interesting, do you know the age and location?

Silesian, I think now as I have for the last ten years that much of what has been written on forums about Corded Ware Culture is a transposition of the culture of the eastern and much later mobile populations of the steppe, people with metallurgy, onto Corded Ware. Much of it is just anachronistic for Corded Ware.

Corded Ware had stone axes and flint knives, no superior bronze weapons, not even much, if any, copper. Horse remains are rare and I don't remember if any paper even reports remains of the carts. I think a lot of this is conjecture from words in the language. Most burials just have beakers in them, and some stone tools and axes, but not even horse bones. If you search using academia.edu you'll find lots of papers like the following:

See:
https://www.academia.edu/20286495/Social_differentiation_reflected_by_the_Corded_War e_culture_burial_rite_in_the_Carpathian_foothill_a nd_upland_region

Some pots, probably made by local women admitted into the group, and stone axes, and flint arrowheads. That's it.

This is Kristiansen. It's all very general. Lots of talk about wagons and loading belongings on pack animals but no links to actual finds of the wagons. Being constructed of wood they may have rotted away, so there is that to consider.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/12d8/4fc4d5456f288ae5e72dc1decdc63319fd50.pd (https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/12d8/4fc4d5456f288ae5e72dc1decdc63319fd50.pdf)


Diet and mobility in Corded Ware:
Also, the substantial variation present at individual, local and regional levels is highlighted by this study. Such variability excludes any simplistic interpretation of CW economy as dominated by any single mode of subsistence. In combination with recent archaeological information for CW settlement and other studies of diet and mobility for this period, we would conclude that the CW people of southern Germany specifically, and perhaps Central Europe as a whole, continued largely in an agricultural way of life.
Although mobility was relatively high, it was not greatly different from earlier groups of farmers such as the Linearbandkeramik and the contemporary Bell Beaker folk of Western Europe in general and southern Germany in particular [69 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0155083#pone.0155083.ref069), 90 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0155083#pone.0155083.ref090), 93 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0155083#pone.0155083.ref093)].
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0155083

The most mobile members of their society were the women.

There are more detailed and nuanced discussions of the the changes which took place over the 1000 years after their appearance, including the adoption of crop cultivation, which never really ceased. Sorry, I didn't save the links to any of those papers.

As to horses, all the paper says is that "At the Wattendorf settlement in NE Bavaria, for instance, cattle were prominent among the faunal remains, but sheep, goats, pigs and horses were also found. "


It doesn't seem to me that it's likely that most of the wagons were pulled by horses.

Imo, there was a Neolithic collapse, either from a changing climate, or destruction of the soil by over cultivation, or both, then plague. The very wet period on deforested lands made for lots of grass and the incoming people from the steppe with their herds were thus able to survive better. I also have a hunch they had more immunity to the plague. They weren't cowboys of the steppe wielding bronze swords from horseback. That was all fantasy imo.

All of that stuff is much later.

johen
29-07-19, 08:12
PIE mark?

2nd person in Wall painting of "Tocharian Princes" from Cave of the Sixteen Sword-Bearers:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/qizildonors.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/qizildonors.jpghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/QizilDonors.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/MeRHpLd.jpg

okunevo symbol at the bottom of pottery:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Jia/publication/275275447/figure/fig9/AS:[email protected]/Typological-chronology-of-the-Okunevo.png

kalash mark:
http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/la-1223-pin06-970x500.jpg

sunmark is also tocharian tradition?
by the way, yamna people arrived at altai and changed their burial tradition.


Burials in both the xiaohe and the gumugou cemetery were fairly heterogeneous, and the clay-lid wooden coffins in the xiaohe cemetery and the sun-radiating-spokes burials in the gumugou cemetery only took up in a small percentage of each cemetery.The sun-radiating-spokes burials share some features with a similar type of grave, constructed of circular stone kerbs of the stone-pit graves.
........
The sun-radiating-spokes burials might represent an adaption to the local desert environment, which had better access to wood rather than stones. Circular stone kerbs with stone-pit in centre were widely seen in Bronze Age Afanasievo and Andronovo burials, and also in the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age burials along the Tian Shan. The present study suggests a high possibility that the six males buried in the sun-radiating-spokes graves came from the contemporary parallel Andronovo horizon, and kept some of their own ancestry memories in an adapted way.
https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/xinjiang-afanasievo-andronovo-bmac-tian-shan.jpg

Silesian
29-07-19, 11:59
Silesian, I think now as I have for the last ten years that much of what has been written on forums about Corded Ware Culture is a transposition of the culture of the eastern and much later mobile populations of the steppe, people with metallurgy, onto Corded Ware. Much of it is just anachronistic for Corded Ware.

Corded Ware had stone axes and flint knives, no superior bronze weapons, not even much, if any, copper. Horse remains are rare and I don't remember if any paper even reports remains of the carts. I think a lot of this is conjecture from words in the language. Most burials just have beakers in them, and some stone tools and axes, but not even horse bones. If you search using academia.edu you'll find lots of papers like the following:

See:
https://www.academia.edu/20286495/Social_differentiation_reflected_by_the_Corded_War e_culture_burial_rite_in_the_Carpathian_foothill_a nd_upland_region

Some pots, probably made by local women admitted into the group, and stone axes, and flint arrowheads. That's it.

This is Kristiansen. It's all very general. Lots of talk about wagons and loading belongings on pack animals but no links to actual finds of the wagons. Being constructed of wood they may have rotted away, so there is that to consider.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/12d8/4fc4d5456f288ae5e72dc1decdc63319fd50.pd (https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/12d8/4fc4d5456f288ae5e72dc1decdc63319fd50.pdf)


Diet and mobility in Corded Ware:
Also, the substantial variation present at individual, local and regional levels is highlighted by this study. Such variability excludes any simplistic interpretation of CW economy as dominated by any single mode of subsistence. In combination with recent archaeological information for CW settlement and other studies of diet and mobility for this period, we would conclude that the CW people of southern Germany specifically, and perhaps Central Europe as a whole, continued largely in an agricultural way of life.
Although mobility was relatively high, it was not greatly different from earlier groups of farmers such as the Linearbandkeramik and the contemporary Bell Beaker folk of Western Europe in general and southern Germany in particular [69 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0155083#pone.0155083.ref069), 90 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0155083#pone.0155083.ref090), 93 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0155083#pone.0155083.ref093)].
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0155083

The most mobile members of their society were the women.

There are more detailed and nuanced discussions of the the changes which took place over the 1000 years after their appearance, including the adoption of crop cultivation, which never really ceased. Sorry, I didn't save the links to any of those papers.

As to horses, all the paper says is that "At the Wattendorf settlement in NE Bavaria, for instance, cattle were prominent among the faunal remains, but sheep, goats, pigs and horses were also found. "


It doesn't seem to me that it's likely that most of the wagons were pulled by horses.

Imo, there was a Neolithic collapse, either from a changing climate, or destruction of the soil by over cultivation, or both, then plague. The very wet period on deforested lands made for lots of grass and the incoming people from the steppe with their herds were thus able to survive better. I also have a hunch they had more immunity to the plague. They weren't cowboys of the steppe wielding bronze swords from horseback. That was all fantasy imo.

All of that stuff is much later.

Thank you for your perspective and valuable unbiased input. Very interesting.

bicicleur
29-07-19, 12:59
R1b1a1a2-M269 Tocharians?
No, R1b2-PH155 Huns!
The complete set of aligned Y SNP calls from the Tianshan individuals:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15ecXQf2gRYNfMELt4H5lYuN5G9NXXIWTAhscqvfOPR0/edit?usp=sharing
• M15-2: R-PH200
https://yfull.com/tree/R-PH200/
• MO12: R-PH155
https://yfull.com/tree/R-PH155/
• M15-1: Q-M120
https://yfull.com/tree/Q-M120/
• X3: Q-F5400
https://yfull.com/tree/Q-F5400/
R-PH200 under R-PH155 was found in a supposed "Gepid" (VIM_2, ERS2374341 on the YFull tree) from Serbia from the 6th century CE with an artificially deformed skull who was autosomally at least 20% East Asian, and therefore likely a Hun or with a Hun father, and also a Tian Shan Hun from Uzbekistan from about the year 260 CE. Both Q-M120 and Q-F5400 are East Asian.
Autosomally, these 4 individuals from China are substantially East Asian.
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/they-mixed-up-tocharians-with-huns.html
This raises some interesting questions about the origins of this earliest branch of R1b, which doesn't appear to have migrated westward from the R* homeland until historic period. The first westward movement of R1b appears to have taken place after the LGM, not before 17,100 ybp, and likely later after the Bolling Interstadial ("the End of the Ice Age") at 14,700 ybp.
https://yfull.com/tree/R1b/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15ecXQf2gRYNfMELt4H5lYuN5G9NXXIWTAhscqvfOPR0/edit?fbclid=IwAR1BYMIKPo8OB3vC0G00BNZwpQ5RfL8jboCz UsBkxUJplTg9BQiKsYfDR4c#gid=0

bicicleur
29-07-19, 13:10
if these samples are really Huns, then the dating and the location suggests a link between Xiongnu and Huns

is there DNA available from Xiongnu/Huns to compare with these samples?

johen
29-07-19, 19:32
^^^

As far as I know, Xungnu has not deformed skull culture like Hun.

The Xungnu has 2 type of skulls, mongoloid and paleo-type like jomon or polynesian or american indian. The latter is called as xungnu turk by anthro scholar, which is connected to chandman skull like blackfoot american indian at the late bronze age of west mongolia.
This kind of skull cannot be made by bronze age skull like afanasievo or yamna (gracile CM), whatever their gene have steppe admixture.

Moreover Xungnu has typical step tomb as I called upside-down pyramid, being different from this R1b tomb.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33257-upside-down-pyramids

Thus, if Xungnu had R1b, the R1b would have something to do with the following R1b anthropologically:

http://www.ranhaer.org/data/attachment/forum/forumid_97/180909134059b429e3c3e0b7a2.jpg.thumb.jpg
http://www.ranhaer.org/data/attachment/forum/forumid_97/18090913406bf47745e1a5b03e.jpg.thumb.jpg


Molecular evidences of paleogeographical ancestry of neolithic proto-mongolians and their craniofacial reconstruction

Abstract

To give thumbnail sketch of genetic lineage, physical appearance and dietary life of Neolithic proto-Mongolians, two individuals excavated in Dunguljin, Dornod, Eastern Mongolia and Shatar chuluu, Bayankhongor, Western Mongolia were examined for haplotypes/haplogroups of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y chromosome, craniofacial features and carbon/nitrogen stable isotopic signatures. Physical anthropological analysis revealed that Eastern and Western individuals were Mongoloid and Caucasoid, respectively, and were all males by amelogenin-based sex determination. Eastern individual belonged to mtDNA haplogroup D4e5b and Y haplogroup C2 whereas Western individual was affiliated to mtDNA haplogroup N1a1a1a and Y haplogroup R1b, indicating that Eastern and Western individuals had Mongoloid and Caucasoid origins given their patrilineal and matrilineal lineages. In addition, HIrisplex estimation for alleles of pigment-associated SNP markers showed that both individuals had brown eyes, black hair and light brown skin. Interestingly, combining results of HIrisplex estimations and computerized 3D modelling based craniofacial reconstruction, Western proto-Mongolian revealed mixed physical appearance between Mongoloid and Caucasoid, although his patrilineal and matrilineal origins were all Caucasoid. His brown eyes and black hair may imply that alleles of genes determining eye and hair colors were not mutated to reveal light-colored eyes and hair in Neolithic proto-Mongolians. Carbon and nitrogen stable isotopic values of bone collagen were -16.6‰ and 12.8‰ in Eastern Mongoloid and -18.6‰ and 11.3‰ in Western Caucasoid, respectively. This may indicate that the staple diets of Neolithic proto-Mongolians consisted of C3/C4 mixed plant foods with small proportion of C4, mainly millet, and high amount of meat sources, presumably including freshwater fishes. This investigation clearly indicates that Eastern and Western parts of the Mongolian Plateau were occupied by individuals with Mongoloid and Caucasoid genetic lineages, respectively, but were not mixed in their genetic makeups. However, difference of their physical appearance was not so apparent compared to that in modern Asian and European.

Open Access http://www.riss.kr/link?id=T14428880
http://www.ranhaer.org/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=38530&extra=page%3D1

johen
31-07-19, 21:25
R1b1a1a2-M269 Tocharians?
No, R1b2-PH155 Huns!


Regarding the tianshan people origin, Hun, white Hun, Yuezhi, and Xioungnu have been mentioned in other forums.
Looks like they were same paleo-type people , even if their Hg and spoken languages would be different.
As mentioned before, this kind of paleo skull people lived at west mongolia (including altai) even at the late bronze age, being different from modern mongol and modern caucasoid. They all disappeared.

By wiki
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Yueh-ChihMigrations.jpg
Kushan ruler:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Coin_of_Heraios.jpg

Xoungnu:
https://scfh.ru/files/medialibrary/554/554c08b669356782031d648e858a4791.jpg

Ephthalites (white Hun)
https://scfh.ru/files/medialibrary/d0e/d0e840b4bb02f2229d897d224559f388.jpg
https://scfh.ru/files/iblock/c48/c4863b2e9f38dc1f0c75ccb110295f67.jpg

https://scfh.ru/en/papers/we-drank-soma-we-became-immortal-/

maybe connected to china brzone also:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Gold_Mask_%28黄金面罩%29.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanxingdui
https://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~inaasim/Early%20China/Hist%20387_2.htm

https://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~inaasim/Early%20China/jadeservant.jpg
Qin shihuang vs white hun ruler:

http://www2.oberlin.edu/images/Art250/05-0001.JPG

vs

https://scfh.ru/files/medialibrary/804/804f5b22b8842eaed267e28b91dcf969.jpg
https://scfh.ru/en/papers/riders-lost-in-the-himalayas/

johen
06-08-19, 20:00
Regarding the tianshan people origin, Hun, white Hun, Yuezhi, and Xioungnu have been mentioned in other forums.
Looks like they were same paleo-type people , even if their Hg and spoken languages would be different.
As mentioned before, this kind of paleo skull people lived at west mongolia (including altai) even at the late bronze age, being different from modern mongol and modern caucasoid. They all disappeared.

By wiki
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Yueh-ChihMigrations.jpg
Kushan ruler:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Coin_of_Heraios.jpg

Xoungnu:
https://scfh.ru/files/medialibrary/554/554c08b669356782031d648e858a4791.jpg

Ephthalites (white Hun)
https://scfh.ru/files/medialibrary/d0e/d0e840b4bb02f2229d897d224559f388.jpg
https://scfh.ru/files/iblock/c48/c4863b2e9f38dc1f0c75ccb110295f67.jpg

https://scfh.ru/en/papers/we-drank-soma-we-became-immortal-/

maybe connected to china brzone also:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Gold_Mask_%28黄金面罩%29.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanxingdui
https://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~inaasim/Early%20China/Hist%20387_2.htm

https://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~inaasim/Early%20China/jadeservant.jpg
Qin shihuang vs white hun ruler:

http://www2.oberlin.edu/images/Art250/05-0001.JPG

vs

https://scfh.ru/files/medialibrary/804/804f5b22b8842eaed267e28b91dcf969.jpg
https://scfh.ru/en/papers/riders-lost-in-the-himalayas/

looks like ancient people at that area had unbalanced skull with big nose:

Arkaim idol in sintashta culture:
http://www.ringingcedarsofrussia.org/theearth/oct12/arkaim-8.jpg

Interesting thing is seima turbino had the same idol like Arkaim idol:
http://www.sarks.fi/fa/PDF/FA19_13.pdf (page 20)

Cyrus
07-08-19, 09:25
According to Sumero-Akkadian sources, the original land of Tocharian was Tukri (Tukrish) in the north of Parhasi (Persia) and east of Guti, so it was probably in the center or east of Iran, it is believed that the name of Tajrish (Tehran) relates to them, the names ancient Tukri kings have Tocharian origin, for example Kikla-palli (Tocharian kokle-walli) means "the king of chariot".

A. Papadimitriou
07-08-19, 13:25
According to Sumero-Akkadian sources, the original land of Tocharian was Tukri (Tukrish) in the north of Parhasi (Persia) and east of Guti, so it was probably in the center or east of Iran, it is believed that the name of Tajrish (Tehran) relates to them, the names ancient Tukri kings have Tocharian origin, for example Kikla-palli (Tocharian kokle-walli) means "the king of chariot".

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Tocharian_languages.svg/1920px-Tocharian_languages.svg.png

They should have sampled that region first during the 6th to 8th century AD and then make speculations about the migration.
I think one word used to refer to themselves in their texts is ārśi.
That ś sound can descend, as far as I understand, from the sounds that are reconstructed traditionally as
*ǵʰ, *gʰ, *gʷʰ and *dTypically it is assumed that the toponym Agni is related to that. In Chinese it's ~Yen-ch’i

Cyrus
07-08-19, 14:50
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Tocharian_languages.svg/1920px-Tocharian_languages.svg.png

They should have sampled that region first during the 6th to 8th century AD and then make speculations about the migration.
I think one word used to refer to themselves in their texts is ārśi.
That ś sound can descend, as far as I understand, from the sounds that are reconstructed traditionally as
*ǵʰ, *gʰ, *gʷʰ and *d
Typically it is assumed that the toponym Agni is related to that. In Chinese it's ~Yen-ch’i

Tocharians actually called their language ārśi (ārśi-käntu "Ārśi language"), it probably related to aryan, ancient Persian also called their language ariya. It is from proto-IE *ar- "free, noble", cognate with Hittite arawa "free, noble". -śi is a suffix in Tocharian: https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol_printable/tokol

MOESAN
07-08-19, 18:34
I wonder if I did not read that Tokharian was an inaccurate ame for Agni-Kuchi, these IE last ones living very later and the former name concerning perhaps another ethnic group. Just to answer to the etymologic proposition of Cyrus.

Cyrus
07-08-19, 20:56
I wonder if I did not read that Tokharian was an inaccurate ame for Agni-Kuchi, these IE last ones living very later and the former name concerning perhaps another ethnic group. Just to answer to the etymologic proposition of Cyrus.
It is really doesn't matter what Tocharians called themselves in 8th century AD, the oldest name is Sumero-Akkadian Tukri, Ancient Greek Tókharoi, Old Persian Tuxāri, Sanskrit Tukhāra and Old Chinese Tokʷar. The name is too old that we see proto-Iranan Spirantization (k>x).

MOESAN
08-08-19, 20:42
It is really doesn't matter what Tocharians called themselves in 8th century AD, the oldest name is Sumero-Akkadian Tukri, Ancient Greek Tókharoi, Old Persian Tuxāri, Sanskrit Tukhāra and Old Chinese Tokʷar. The name is too old that we see proto-Iranan Spirantization (k>x).

tHE QUESTION REMAINS/ IS THIS NAME TUKRI APPLIED TO THE REAL ANCESTORS OF THE AGNI-KUCHI OF OUR ERA speaking these I-E languages?
according to what I read, it was unsure.

Cyrus
08-08-19, 22:11
tHE QUESTION REMAINS/ IS THIS NAME TUKRI APPLIED TO THE REAL ANCESTORS OF THE AGNI-KUCHI OF OUR ERA speaking these I-E languages?
according to what I read, it was unsure.

It is not important that the word Tukri is similar to Tochari, the important point is that names of some Tukri kings sound Tocharian. Of course Old Chinese Tokʷar and Old Persian Tuxari are important, the second one shows the original name was Tukri, because kr consonant cluster could be just changed to xr/xar in Iranian and the first one shows a similar name existed as far as China, we read about Tukri in Elamite and Sumero-Akkadian sources in the second half of the 3rd millennium BC.

johen
14-08-19, 05:37
Regarding the tianshan people origin, Hun, white Hun, Yuezhi, and Xioungnu have been mentioned in other forums.
Looks like they were same paleo-type people , even if their Hg and spoken languages would be different.
As mentioned before, this kind of paleo skull people lived at west mongolia (including altai) even at the late bronze age, being different from modern mongol and modern caucasoid. They all disappeared.

By wiki

Kushan ruler:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Coin_of_Heraios.jpg

Xoungnu:
https://scfh.ru/files/medialibrary/554/554c08b669356782031d648e858a4791.jpg

According to another research, Tianshan Hun and west xoungnu also have afanasievo admixture(????).
Likewise, modern south asian also possibly don't have bronze-age steppe admixture.

However, important thing is they have both east and west gene like ANE. So ancient people skulls over there make people confusing. By anthro data, UP type chandman skull at west mongolia clusters with Xoungnu and american Indian. They seems to be intermediate like okunevo skull to connected to american indian.


https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/afanasevo-namazga-devils-gate-xiongnu-huns-tianshan-admixture.png

Inland-coastal bifurcation of southern East Asians revealed by Hmong-Mien genomic history (https://doi.org/10.1101/730903), by Xia et al. bioRxiv (2019).

johen
18-08-19, 17:59
Regarding the tianshan(Shirenzigou) people origin, Hun(R1b2-PH155) Huns, white Hun, Yuezhi, and Xioungnu have been mentioned in other forums.
Looks like they were same paleo-type people , even if their Hg and spoken languages would be different.
As mentioned before, this kind of paleo skull people lived at west mongolia (including altai) even at the late bronze age, being different from modern mongol and modern caucasoid. They all disappeared.

By wiki
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Yueh-ChihMigrations.jpg
Kushan ruler:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Coin_of_Heraios.jpg

Xoungnu:
https://scfh.ru/files/medialibrary/554/554c08b669356782031d648e858a4791.jpg

Ephthalites (white Hun)
https://scfh.ru/files/medialibrary/d0e/d0e840b4bb02f2229d897d224559f388.jpg
https://scfh.ru/files/iblock/c48/c4863b2e9f38dc1f0c75ccb110295f67.jpg

https://scfh.ru/en/papers/we-drank-soma-we-became-immortal-/

maybe connected to china brzone also:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Gold_Mask_%28黄金面罩%29.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanxingdui
https://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~inaasim/Early%20China/Hist%20387_2.htm

https://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~inaasim/Early%20China/jadeservant.jpg
Qin shihuang vs white hun ruler:

http://www2.oberlin.edu/images/Art250/05-0001.JPG

vs

https://scfh.ru/files/medialibrary/804/804f5b22b8842eaed267e28b91dcf969.jpg
https://scfh.ru/en/papers/riders-lost-in-the-himalayas/

anthropologically paleo skull, genetically paleo Hg


Y chromosome haplogroup assignments of Shirenzigou samples:

SRZ_M15-1: R1b2b2 - Y92825
SRZ_M012: R1b2 - B1/BY14364/BY14573/BY14586/PH491/Y141794
SRZ_X3: Q1a2a2b1 - F4917/F4956
SRZ_M15-2: Q1a1a - F4734/F750/Y693
SRZ_M8R1: O - CTS7553/M1759
SRZ_M4: R1a1a1b - F3044
according to anthrogenica