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View Full Version : R1a-CTS1211 > CTS8816 > Y2902 > YP3994 in Albania and in the Balkans



Illyri
03-09-19, 22:44
I am Albanian (my fatherline originates from South Albania). I recently discovered that my Y-Haplogroup is R1a-CTS1211> CTS8816 > Y2902 > YP3994.

R1a-M417represents around 8 % of the male lineages in Albania (9 % among Tosk Albanians only). As such, it is the fourth major male lineage in Albania, naturally coming after E1b-V13 (28 %), R1B-M269 (18,5 %) and J2b-L283 (18 %). R1a’s subclades present in Albania include:

- R-M458 (mainly L1029 Dibra Cluster + L260 > YP1337/YP254);
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- R-Z280 (mainly CTS1211> YP951/ L366/P278.2/Y33*/YP3994 + a little Z92).
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According to the Phylogenetic tree of Haplogroup R1a-Z280, R-CTS8816 > Y2902 is nowadays present in the Slavic countries, Germany, Scandinavia, South France, Spain and Italy and as you can see, the tree’s author raised the question of a possible Gothic expansion of these subclades.
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As a matter of fact, R-Y2902 (formed 4200 ybp TMRCA 2400 ybp) presents a very interesting distribution in Europe since it is also present in places where no Slavic migrations are historically recorded.
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SNP Tracker (Scaled Innovation) shows that its daughter clade R-YP3994 is present in Western Slovakia since the Iron Age. That being said, I do not know how reliable this tracker is and whether it is based on ancient DNA or merely refers to the forming ages of the various subclades.

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In the FTDNA R1a Project, the deep subclade R-YP3994 is currently present in the United Kingdom, in Sicily (Palermo), Albania, Bulgaria (Stara Zagora) and Russia. In addition to me, there is another Çam Albanian (from Gumenica, Greece), who should belong to the same subclade (he did not test beyond R-M198 but is my only YDNA remote "cousin").

The fact that R-YP3994 is present in the Balkans and in South Italy as well could support a Gothic related expansion (but its current geographical spread in Southern Europe could also be the result of the Albanian medieval migrations to Italy and Bulgaria). Although this is no decisive evidence, such hypothesis is not inconsistent with R-YP3994’s forming age, which is 2400 ybp (by reference to R-Y2902's TMRCA).

An administrator from the Albanian DNA Project kindly looked at my results and concluded that this lineage's arrival in Albania could be Gothic related but was more likely brought by the Slavic migrations in the Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages (he pointed out that certain sister subclades under R-Y2902 are exclusively Polish and Russian and doubted that the Goths had such an impact in Eastern Europe). On the other hand, it is also worth noting that the company through which I first tested (up to the CTS8816 level) did not mention the Goths at all and concluded that CTS8816 could have been brought to the Balkans by the Slavs (and/or the Illyrians, which does not seem serious in view of the available ancient DNA evidence).

Any additional information, comments or thoughts on R-YP3994, its place of origin, phylogeny, forming age or TMRCA would be most welcome.

Dibran
04-09-19, 14:19
.........................

In most cases I would say it probably arrived with the Slavic migrations, or at least a Proto-Slav/Balto-Slav that was assimilated in Gothic movements and brought a tad earlier. However, your clade R-YP3994 only has an Italian on Yfull. On R1a project theres a Italian, American, and 2 Russians.

Considering how basal it appears, I don't see how Gothic is out of the question. Gothic in the sense it was assimilated in their movements. However, nothing is certain until you do a BigY test. This will help to determine if you form a cluster with the Italian, or Russian cluster, or maybe even form your own specific Albanian haplotype. There is also a I2-Din clade which is not really found outside Greeks or east European Jews. So for all we know some clades split from Balto-Slavs earlier and joined other cultures.

Ownstyler
04-09-19, 15:28
SNP Tracker (Scaled Innovation) shows that its daughter clade R-YP3994 is present in Western Slovakia since the Iron Age. That being said, I do not know how reliable this tracker is and whether it is based on ancient DNA or merely refers to the forming ages of the various subclades.

You can see most Ancient DNA finds here (https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1TYJrkLXUap0Ip-8EIeTH-uzN4V8&ll=45.49395456132542%2C24.025325085150826&z=6).


Perhaps, it would help a to know R-YP3994’s forming age, which does not appear on www.yfull.com (http://www.yfull.com/).

As Trojet said, the forming age is always the same as the tmrca of the former clade.

It seems the Italian and whoever hid their results from YFull share 5 SNPs. From that, I would estimate that their lines split around 1300-1700 ybp, which points to a Late Anitiquity/Early Middle Ages expansion. This is only based on 1-2 samples, so let's see how you compare once your BigY is ready.

Illyri
04-09-19, 19:09
However, your clade R-YP3994 only has an Italian on Yfull. On R1a project theres a Italian, American, and 2 Russians.

Considering how basal it appears, I don't see how Gothic is out of the question. Gothic in the sense it was assimilated in their movements. However, nothing is certain until you do a BigY test. This will help to determine if you form a cluster with the Italian, or Russian cluster, or maybe even form your own specific Albanian haplotype
Thank you for your insightful analysis. YP3994 is indeed basal (although quite young) and I think this is also reflected by the current geographic spread.

However, there is only one Russian on R1a Project. The other gentlemen is from Bulgaria (Stara Zagora). Of course I am speculating, but he could still belong to an « albanian » cluster since some orthodox Albanians - now probably entirely assimilated - settled in Stara Zagora (and other villages) in the Middle Ages (see Robert Elsie’s Historical Dictionnary of Albania).

And the other participant is from U.K., which -
correct me if I am wrong - could be an indication of an « East germanic » assimilation of YP3994.

But you are right, BigY will probably provide new elements to sort this out.


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Illyri
04-09-19, 19:15
You can see most Ancient DNA finds here (https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1TYJrkLXUap0Ip-8EIeTH-uzN4V8&ll=45.49395456132542%2C24.025325085150826&z=6).



As Trojet said, the forming age is always the same as the tmrca of the former clade.

It seems the Italian and whoever hid their results from YFull share 5 SNPs. From that, I would estimate that their lines split around 1300-1700 ybp, which points to a Late Anitiquity/Early Middle Ages expansion. This is only based on 1-2 samples, so let's see how you compare once your BigY is ready.

Thanks for the Link with Ancient DNA samples.

The person hiding his results could be the British gentleman, since the two other participants in the subclade did not test deep enough from what I can see in the R1a project.

Yes we will see if anything changes with the BigY results.



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AxelHagen
04-09-19, 23:09
Goths were formed in central-eastern Europe from Wielbark culture and before slavic language expansion in Europe. Before in this thread i've seen a quote where this subclade in Northern Italy associated with another Eastern Germanic tribes(Rugii and Heruli). And how east germanic tribes can exist, if they were formed in Poland? Are slavs killed them all?

Illyri
04-09-19, 23:30
And how east germanic tribes can exist, if they were formed in Poland? Are slavs killed them all?

The ethnic landscape likely was very different in 400 BC, i.e. at the time YP3994 formed. Most likely the various peoples living in Central Eastern Europe had more in common than nowadays. In any case, I do not think that there was a lot of "killing" involved (at least none is historically recorded to my knowledge). It was rather cultural assimilation from both sides. East Germans absorbed R1a tribes then migrated. Those who stayed were probably assimilated back during the centuries.

ShpataEMadhe
05-09-19, 21:20
R1a is not to do with the Slavic invasions in the balkans. If you look at the total gheg albanians, they have more r1a (5%) than true south Slavic gene i2a (3.9%) yet south slavs have a lot more i2a than r1a. How can ghegs have more r1a than i2a when south slavs have more than double i2a over r1a if this is all from Slavic invasion?
Also in kosova they have more i2a (6.7%) and only (1.2%) of r1a which shows slavs had a bigger impact there instead of north albania though more testing needs to be done there to get a better picture
Can someone explain the mystery of r1a? Which indo European race was spread around Central and South Europe before Slavic invasion other than illyrians?

Johane Derite
05-09-19, 21:39
R1a is not to do with the Slavic invasions in the balkans. If you look at the total gheg albanians, they have more r1a (5%) than true south Slavic gene i2a (3.9%) yet south slavs have a lot more i2a than r1a. How can ghegs have more r1a than i2a when south slavs have more than double i2a over r1a if this is all from Slavic invasion?
Also in kosova they have more i2a (6.7%) and only (1.2%) of r1a which shows slavs had a bigger impact there instead of north albania though more testing needs to be done there to get a better picture
Can someone explain the mystery of r1a? Which indo European race was spread around Central and South Europe before Slavic invasion other than illyrians?

False on many levels. Tosks have 9.2% R1a, Ghegs have 5%. And they in general show up in zones where there have been or are bulgarian minorities.

Illyri
05-09-19, 22:52
R1a is not to do with the Slavic invasions in the balkans. If you look at the total gheg albanians, they have more r1a (5%) than true south Slavic gene i2a (3.9%) yet south slavs have a lot more i2a than r1a. How can ghegs have more r1a than i2a when south slavs have more than double i2a over r1a if this is all from Slavic invasion?
Also in kosova they have more i2a (6.7%) and only (1.2%) of r1a which shows slavs had a bigger impact there instead of north albania though more testing needs to be done there to get a better picture
Can someone explain the mystery of r1a? Which indo European race was spread around Central and South Europe before Slavic invasion other than illyrians?

As regards the I2a/R1a relation, the proportions of I2a and R1a were perhaps different in the various tribes that invaded the Balkans during the Migrations times and settled in various areas. Although I would personally like R-YP3994 to stem from Illyrians, it seems unlikely given its forming age (around 400 BC). Everything is theoretically possible, but for the time being, ancient DNA samples have revealed no R1a of Illyrian origin.

Illyri
05-09-19, 23:09
False on many levels. Tosks have 9.2% R1a, Ghegs have 5%. And they in general show up in zones where there have been or are bulgarian minorities.

I agree that R1a is more frequent in South Albania (and its level increases going more South). And by the way, I2a-CTS10228 is also higher among Tosk Albanians (10,8%).

But I have no knowledge of existing Bulgarian minorities in Southern Toskëria. Can you be more specific here ? Of course Bulgarian R1a includes R-CTS8816 but it is very diversified (L366, YP340, YP617, Z685, L-1029, Z93, R-M198 [417-]). More generally, I do not think that we can reduce R1a's presence in Albania to Bulgarian minorities, which cannot totally explain the current geographical spread of R-Y2902 (England; South France; Sardinia; Sicily; Central Germany) and R-YP3994 (England; Sicily).

Finally, there have also been medieval Albanian migrations to Bulgaria (as I wrote above), which makes even more difficult to draw conclusions when it comes to specific deep subclades.

Johane Derite
06-09-19, 00:14
I agree that R1a is more frequent in South Albania (and its level increases going more South). And by the way, I2a-CTS10228 is also higher among Tosk Albanians (10,8%).

But I have no knowledge of existing Bulgarian minorities in Southern Toskëria. Can you be more specific here ? Of course Bulgarian R1a includes R-CTS8816 but it is very diversified (L366, YP340, YP617, Z685, L-1029, Z93, R-M198 [417-]). More generally, I do not think that we can reduce R1a's presence in Albania to Bulgarian minorities, which cannot totally explain the current geographical spread of R-Y2902 (England; South France; Sardinia; Sicily; Central Germany) and R-YP3994 (England; Sicily).

Finally, there have also been medieval Albanian migrations to Bulgaria (as I wrote above), which makes even more difficult to draw conclusions when it comes to specific deep subclades.


I'm not as familiar with if there are existing Bulgarian minorities today, but that is why i specified where there "have been or are"

South East Albania has the most old bulgarian toponymy, and it was ravaged early on by the slavic invasions. Around ohrid and Kora was the bulgarian administration and orthodoxy power base called kutmichevitsa. This is why South-East Albania has the highest slav markers.

Also of course, there are many diverse R1a's and i don't want to simplify when some could be goth, maybe even dacian, etc, who knows, but the general idea is that its most likely slav unlike what that commenter was saying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kutmichevitsa

ShpataEMadhe
06-09-19, 12:06
False on many levels. Tosks have 9.2% R1a, Ghegs have 5%. And they in general show up in zones where there have been or are bulgarian minorities.

I never mentioned Tosks, I asked how can ghegs in Albania have more r1a than i2a when south slavs have much more i2a than r1a. Surely r1a is something else not related to Slavic invasion according to this, Slavic invasion probably reduced the r1a number in places around and below ukraine. What groups were living in Ukraine, serbia and further down before the Slavic invasion? R1a must have been in Europe long before Slavic invasion and maybe a few coming afterwards from Asian ottoman groups but I haven't been able to look at the sub clades in European populations. R1a is also found in North Europe (20% in Norway) including Scotland and Iceland!

Can someone split the sub clades or r1a and give a percentage of findings in central Europe, North Europe, South Europe and Asia?

Illyri
06-09-19, 12:29
I'm not as familiar with if there are existing Bulgarian minorities today, but that is why i specified where there "have been or are"

South East Albania has the most old bulgarian toponymy, and it was ravaged early on by the slavic invasions. Around ohrid and Korça was the bulgarian administration and orthodoxy power base called kutmichevitsa. This is why South-East Albania has the highest slav markers.

Also of course, there are many diverse R1a's and i don't want to simplify when some could be goth, maybe even dacian, etc, who knows, but the general idea is that its most likely slav unlike what that commenter was saying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kutmichevitsa

Sorry if my question bothered you. I had well understood what you wrote, but asked since nowadays minorities pop up everywhere in Albania.

In any case, thank you for adding the context. Historical input is always precious.

I agree with you regarding R1a's various origins and the "slav unlike" comment. As for the Bulgarian link, I was a bit misled by the following map :

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showing the various R1a subclades in Eurasia. If I understood correctly the color legend, the map displays mainly R-L1029 in Bulgaria., i.e. a subclade distinct from the R-CTS3402 present in South Albania and Northern Greece.

But said map is most likely inaccurate since R1a in Northern and Middle Albania is not R-L1280 either (but mostly R-L1029 > Albanian Dibra Cluster).


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Kelmendasi
06-09-19, 17:02
I never mentioned Tosks, I asked how can ghegs in Albania have more r1a than i2a when south slavs have much more i2a than r1a. Surely r1a is something else not related to Slavic invasion according to this, Slavic invasion probably reduced the r1a number in places around and below ukraine. What groups were living in Ukraine, serbia and further down before the Slavic invasion? R1a must have been in Europe long before Slavic invasion and maybe a few coming afterwards from Asian ottoman groups but I haven't been able to look at the sub clades in European populations. R1a is also found in North Europe (20% in Norway) including Scotland and Iceland!

Can someone split the sub clades or r1a and give a percentage of findings in central Europe, North Europe, South Europe and Asia?
Ghegs actually have more I2a (~5.3) than R1a (~5%) but as you can see the percentages are almost the same, I assume you meant more R1a than I2a-CTS10228 which is around 3.9% in Ghegs. Ghegs have more R1a simply because the R1a men had more male children than the I2a-CTS10228 men, it's possible that once R1a was more common among early South Slavs but I2a-CTS10228 gradually became more dominant due to things like bottlenecks.

R1a numbers certainly weren't reduced by the Slavic migrations, if anything they were increased. R1a is the dominant marker among Slavs and so it was definitely spread with them. Most R1a clades present in Ghegs, and Tosks for that matter, do seem to be of Slavic origin. It's likely that they arrived during the early medieval and were assimilated by Albanians rather early on. There is a subclade of R1a present in some Ghegs that hasn't been found among Slavs today, that subclade is Y133383 which so far is mainly found in Dibra (both Macedonian and Albanian sides) and is a unique Albanian group. However, it is a subclade of L1029 which seems to be associated with Slavs and so we can assume that it arrived very early on and was assimilated by Albanian speakers. There is also a chance that it arrived via Goths. Also so far no Asiatic or Turkic R1a has been found among Albanians, I personally doubt very much that the Ottoman invasion aided in the spread of R1a since their genetic input as a whole was pretty much inexistant.

R1a in Northern Europe belongs to different clades than those found in Eastern Europe. Northern European R1a is dominated by Z284 which is linked to Proto-Germanic speakers and was mainly spread by Norsemen, there is also some L664 which is also linked to the Germanic peoples. Eastern European R1a is mainly Z280 and M458 which seems to be associated with the Slavs but there may be earlier clades that are of different origin.

ShpataEMadhe
06-09-19, 18:05
Ghegs actually have more I2a (~5.3) than R1a (~5%) but as you can see the percentages are almost the same, I assume you meant more R1a than I2a-CTS10228 which is around 3.9% in Ghegs. Ghegs have more R1a simply because the R1a men had more male children than the I2a-CTS10228 men, it's possible that once R1a was more common among early South Slavs but I2a-CTS10228 gradually became more dominant due to things like bottlenecks.
R1a numbers certainly weren't reduced by the Slavic migrations, if anything they were increased. R1a is the dominant marker among Slavs and so it was definitely spread with them. Most R1a clades present in Ghegs, and Tosks for that matter, do seem to be of Slavic origin. It's likely that they arrived during the early medieval and were assimilated by Albanians rather early on. There is a subclade of R1a present in some Ghegs that hasn't been found among Slavs today, that subclade is Y133383 which so far is mainly found in Dibra (both Macedonian and Albanian sides) and is a unique Albanian group. However, it is a subclade of L1029 which seems to be associated with Slavs and so we can assume that it arrived very early on and was assimilated by Albanian speakers. There is also a chance that it arrived via Goths. Also so far no Asiatic or Turkic R1a has been found among Albanians, I personally doubt very much that the Ottoman invasion aided in the spread of R1a since their genetic input as a whole was pretty much inexistant.
R1a in Northern Europe belongs to different clades than those found in Eastern Europe. Northern European R1a is dominated by Z284 which is linked to Proto-Germanic speakers and was mainly spread by Norsemen, there is also some L664 which is also linked to the Germanic peoples. Eastern European R1a is mainly Z280 and M458 which seems to be associated with the Slavs but there may be earlier clades that are of different origin.
I can't see it. I don't understand how south slavs have so much more i2a than r1a yet albanians have roughly equal, some places have higher r1a than i2a whereas some places like kosova have more i2a than r1a which proves more a bit Slavic input into that particular region of albanians. Also doesn't Bulgaria have more r1a than South slavs yet much less i2a than them?

For me r1a had to have come either before the initial Slavic invasion OR after. Where did North r1a come from, which race exactly were they before the vikings took over? Or did they come after the vikings controlled that land?

i2a invaded Europe and the places where they killed off other races for i2a to become the majority are the true south Slavic nations. This doesn't mean they had to kill everyone, it just meant they needed to be the majority power just like i2a is in Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia etc. As for r1a travelling with the slavs maybe it did but long after the slavs settled in europe and assimilated r1a's around them (so the eastern European clade you're talking about), the ones they left alive. This would make r1a indo European but I don't know which race.

Another theory is that majority i2a came first to Europe during the initial Slavic invasions and then they brought r1a's along with them years later to fill up the newly won land. Maybe after this "peace" period albanians and other balkan countries were more willing to accept slavs (with the new r1a's) but I give this theory a 2/10 because the figures clearly don't add up.

As for Asian r1a it would be nice to know which countries have them most but I reckon the ottoman were mostly j1 anyway, they were continuing the Arab conquests their ancestors had started prior. And you do find a bit of j1 in balkans because of it and especially turkey where its a lot more (10%).
It would be great if someone could make charts of all the major r1a sub clades to make things a bit easier.

Illyri
06-09-19, 18:21
I never mentioned Tosks, I asked how can ghegs in Albania have more r1a than i2a when south slavs have much more i2a than r1a. Surely r1a is something else not related to Slavic invasion according to this, Slavic invasion probably reduced the r1a number in places around and below ukraine. What groups were living in Ukraine, serbia and further down before the Slavic invasion? R1a must have been in Europe long before Slavic invasion and maybe a few coming afterwards from Asian ottoman groups but I haven't been able to look at the sub clades in European populations. R1a is also found in North Europe (20% in Norway) including Scotland and Iceland!

Can someone split the sub clades or r1a and give a percentage of findings in central Europe, North Europe, South Europe and Asia?

There might have been (old) R1a in Europe (and in the Balkans) before the slavic invasions. For example, this could be the case of R1a-Z93 (found in ancient Thrace and formed about 5000 ybp, TMRCA 4700 ybp) and/or of the very ancient R-M198 M417- (forming age 14000 ybp; TMRCA: 8600 ybp) reported on www.eupedia.com (http://www.eupedia.com) to be present in Bulgaria (and in Scotland per https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1a/).

But this could only work for subclades older than 4'500 years and if you look at R1a's subclades nowadays present in the Balkans, most of them are too young to qualify. Croatian searchers (BARAC et alii, EJHG [2003] 11, p. 540) state that the presence of R1a in Croatia's territory was the result of infiltrations occurred during the last 2000 years. One cannot be 100 % sure but when you compare with the ancient DNA finds in Croatia and their estimated ages (E1b-L618: 5485 BC / R1b - Z2103 : 2725 BC / J2n2-L283: 1550 BC), it gives you the impression that the arrival of R1a subclades currently present in our countries is much more recent.

As regards Scandinavian R1a, it stems out from distinct "Nordic" R1a subclades as pointed out by Kelmendasi (R-L664 / R-Z284), which scarce presence in the Balkans is most likely the result of Northmens' raids. In any case, we cannot draw any conclusion based on the situation in Northern Europe since ancient R1a has been found there (see above the link with ancient DNA samples posted by Ownstyler), which is (alas) not the case in Southern Europe.

Illyri
06-09-19, 19:04
For me r1a had to have come either before the initial Slavic invasion OR after. Where did North r1a come from, which race exactly were they before the vikings took over? Or did they come after the vikings controlled that land?

If R1a came before the Slavic expansions, the Goths would be good candidates given the forming ages and TMRCA's of the various subclades. Before them, came the Cimmerians and the Scythians (during the Iron Age). On this website, I found the following summary of migration waves:

"Historically, no other part of Europe was invaded a higher number of times by steppe peoples than the Balkans. Chronologically, the first R1a invaders might have come with the westward expansion of the Sredny Stog culture (from 4200 BCE), which led the way to a succession of steppe migrations that lasted for over 2,000 years until the end of the Yamna culture (3500-2000 BCE). These early invasions from the Steppe were probably conducted in majority by R1b men, accompanied by a small number of R1a. Then came the Thracians (1500 BCE), followed by the Illyrians (around 1200 BCE), and much later the Huns and the Alans (400 CE), the Avars, the Bulgars and the Serbs (all around 600 CE), and the Magyars (900 CE), among others. These peoples originated from different parts of the Eurasian Steppe, anywhere between Eastern Europe and Central Asia, thus contributing to the relatively high diversity of R1a subclades observed in Carpathians and the Balkans today, especially in Bulgaria and Romania. Nevertheless, the vast majority of R1a in Southeast Europe today appears to be of Slavic origin." (see History of "Haplogroup R1a", https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Slavic ).

But again, there is no evidence, such as Ancient DNA, regarding the Illyrians.

As regards, the Nordic R1a-L664/Z284, it seems that it came together with the first R1b migration waves from the Southern Steppe. These first R1a tribes contributed to the Germanic, Celtic and Italic cultures. At least, this is what results from the history of "Haplogroup R1a" published on this website (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Germanic ). You can also find in this article a list of the various subclades present in the Balkanic Countries (but unfortunately without percentages).

Kelmendasi
06-09-19, 20:19
I can't see it. I don't understand how south slavs have so much more i2a than r1a yet albanians have roughly equal, some places have higher r1a than i2a whereas some places like kosova have more i2a than r1a which proves more a bit Slavic input into that particular region of albanians. Also doesn't Bulgaria have more r1a than South slavs yet much less i2a than them?

For me r1a had to have come either before the initial Slavic invasion OR after. Where did North r1a come from, which race exactly were they before the vikings took over? Or did they come after the vikings controlled that land?

i2a invaded Europe and the places where they killed off other races for i2a to become the majority are the true south Slavic nations. This doesn't mean they had to kill everyone, it just meant they needed to be the majority power just like i2a is in Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia etc. As for r1a travelling with the slavs maybe it did but long after the slavs settled in europe and assimilated r1a's around them (so the eastern European clade you're talking about), the ones they left alive. This would make r1a indo European but I don't know which race.

Another theory is that majority i2a came first to Europe during the initial Slavic invasions and then they brought r1a's along with them years later to fill up the newly won land. Maybe after this "peace" period albanians and other balkan countries were more willing to accept slavs (with the new r1a's) but I give this theory a 2/10 because the figures clearly don't add up.

As for Asian r1a it would be nice to know which countries have them most but I reckon the ottoman were mostly j1 anyway, they were continuing the Arab conquests their ancestors had started prior. And you do find a bit of j1 in balkans because of it and especially turkey where its a lot more (10%).
It would be great if someone could make charts of all the major r1a sub clades to make things a bit easier.
Y-DNA frequencies can fluctuate very easily due to natural or unnatural cases such as war, frequency isn't all that important in this case since. Gheg Albanians having roughly an equal amount of R1a and I2a means nothing, those are just frequencies. Bulgarians have around 17.5% R1a whilst around 21.9% I2a, Serbs on the other hand seem to have around 30% I2a and 17% R1a iirc. The frequencies do vary from region to region though.

R1a in the Balkans certainly also arrived prior to the Slavic migrations, a Bronze Age Bulgarian sample for example turned out to be R-Z93. However, the overwhelming majority of Balkan R1a is of Slavic origin since they fall under clades that are common among Slavs and are clearly associated with them. Northern European R1a (Z284 and L664) arrived with Proto-Germanic speakers, so it's a IE marker which originally migrated out of the steppe and so pre-Viking.

I2a didn't invade Europe, a haplogroup can't invade. I2a itself is one of the "original" European haplogroups and originated in Europe, it was one of the WHG markers. The Eastern European R1a clades I was talking about partook in the ethnogenesis of the Slavs, they weren't assimilated by them. If anything I2a-CTS10228 was assimilated by Proto-Slavs, though I think that CTS10228 may have also partook in the Slavic ethnogenesis.

The Ottomans that invaded the Balkans definitely weren't mainly J1, they were probably mainly a mix of J2a and certain other groups like R1a. Balkan J1 doesn't seem to be of Ottoman Turkish origin, most of it arrived between the Bronze Age and Roman Empire. As far as I know a good amount of Turkish J1 isn't even of Arab, or even Semitic for that matter, origin. A large amount of it seems to be of native Anatolian origin.

ShpataEMadhe
06-09-19, 22:06
Y-DNA frequencies can fluctuate very easily due to natural or unnatural cases such as war, frequency isn't all that important in this case since. Gheg Albanians having roughly an equal amount of R1a and I2a means nothing, those are just frequencies. Bulgarians have around 17.5% R1a whilst around 21.9% I2a, Serbs on the other hand seem to have around 30% I2a and 17% R1a iirc. The frequencies do vary from region to region though.
R1a in the Balkans certainly also arrived prior to the Slavic migrations, a Bronze Age Bulgarian sample for example turned out to be R-Z93. However, the overwhelming majority of Balkan R1a is of Slavic origin since they fall under clades that are common among Slavs and are clearly associated with them. Northern European R1a (Z284 and L664) arrived with Proto-Germanic speakers, so it's a IE marker which originally migrated out of the steppe and so pre-Viking.
I2a didn't invade Europe, a haplogroup can't invade. I2a itself is one of the "original" European haplogroups and originated in Europe, it was one of the WHG markers. The Eastern European R1a clades I was talking about partook in the ethnogenesis of the Slavs, they weren't assimilated by them. If anything I2a-CTS10228 was assimilated by Proto-Slavs, though I think that CTS10228 may have also partook in the Slavic ethnogenesis.
The Ottomans that invaded the Balkans definitely weren't mainly J1, they were probably mainly a mix of J2a and certain other groups like R1a. Balkan J1 doesn't seem to be of Ottoman Turkish origin, most of it arrived between the Bronze Age and Roman Empire. As far as I know a good amount of Turkish J1 isn't even of Arab, or even Semitic for that matter, origin. A large amount of it seems to be of native Anatolian origin.
Well, like I said it would be easier to understand if we had charts of all the major r1a sub clades. The slavs definitely invaded Europe and evidence suggests they were mainly i2a. Have any i2a been found in pre slav Europe yet like r1a has been found?
The j1 discussion is off topic but I will say that from the mid 600s onwards arabs invaded a lot of foreign land and changed their history forever such as their language, this wouldn't have been possible without killing off the men or making them flee in order to have the power to change the culture of the land without constant revolts, don't forget in their "religion" they were allowed multiple women so another reason for them to kill the men and take more women for themselves. Also populations were a lot smaller in this period so easier to leave a genetic mark. They did more to their east (Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria etc) but also plenty to their north (Iraq, syria, Iran, Israel, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, East half of turkey, dagestan etc). In fact there is an area in dagestan that has like 90% J1 and these are super religious even today, almost extremist. If there is proof of j1 being in the middle east in abudance or even south Europe before 650 AD then I may accept that most j1 is not from Arab expansion. So if by j1 being native anatolian are you sure you do not mean as in ancestors of post Arab invasion?
As for j2a, yes ottoman may have been some of this too due j2a being widespread in middle East and greece/Turkey at the time from the byzantine empire. But ottoman definitely weren't ethnic greeks, they were clearly angry outcasts in the middle East and for me a lot of them were descendents of former Arab conquerors in the Middle East. Imo Turkey before 650 AD would have been quite similar to Greece with slightly more east influence. A few hundred years later the east of turkey would have had some more j1 after arab input. After the ottomans had taken control I would say j1 in addition to a few other foreign clades would have been as high as 15%. Then the ottoman were taking in balkan boys and raising them in Turkey, over the next few hundred years j1 would have reduced to 10% (war deaths) with j2b, i2a, ev13, r1b increasing filling in the gaps to have the turkey you see today. J1 arabs may have migrated to Turkey over the last 50 years or so too

Illyri
06-09-19, 22:28
You will find a chart with R1a's main subclades per country (for Europe) on this site:

http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r1a-statistic-02-2018-14-new/

The data used to prepare it is supposed to come from Eupedia and FTDNA R1a Project (as of March 2018/7500 samples).
But I do not know whether it is reliable or not.
I tried to post the chart earlier, but it seems that it needs to be authorized first.

By the way, this thread's subject is R1a-CTS1211 in Albania and the Balkans.

Kelmendasi
06-09-19, 22:31
Well, like I said it would be easier to understand if we had charts of all the major r1a sub clades. The slavs definitely invaded Europe and evidence suggests they were mainly i2a. Have any i2a been found in pre slav Europe yet like r1a has been found?
The j1 discussion is off topic but I will say that from the mid 600s onwards arabs invaded a lot of foreign land and changed their history forever such as their language, this wouldn't have been possible without killing off the men or making them flee in order to have the power to change the culture of the land without constant revolts, don't forget in their "religion" they were allowed multiple women so another reason for them to kill the men and take more women for themselves. Also populations were a lot smaller in this period so easier to leave a genetic mark. They did more to their east (Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria etc) but also plenty to their north (Iraq, syria, Iran, Israel, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, East half of turkey, dagestan etc). In fact there is an area in dagestan that has like 90% J1 and these are super religious even today, almost extremist. If there is proof of j1 being in the middle east in abudance or even south Europe before 650 AD then I may accept that most j1 is not from Arab expansion. So if by j1 being native anatolian are you sure you do not mean as in ancestors of post Arab invasion?
As for j2a, yes ottoman may have been some of this too due j2a being widespread in middle East and greece/Turkey at the time from the byzantine empire. But ottoman definitely weren't ethnic greeks, they were clearly angry outcasts in the middle East and for me a lot of them were descendents of former Arab conquerors in the Middle East. Imo Turkey before 650 AD would have been quite similar to Greece with slightly more east influence. A few hundred years later the east of turkey would have had some more j1 after arab input. After the ottomans had taken control I would say j1 in addition to a few other foreign clades would have been as high as 15%. Then the ottoman were taking in balkan boys and raising them in Turkey, over the next few hundred years j1 would have reduced to 10% (war deaths) with j2b, i2a, ev13, r1b increasing filling in the gaps to have the turkey you see today. J1 arabs may have migrated to Turkey over the last 50 years or so too
I see that you aren't all that familiar with these haplogroups and their histories, I would suggest that you read the Eupedia articles and get some sort of idea of these haplogroups.

There have been multiple I2a samples found in Europe that date to periods predating Slavic expansions, in fact most of the I2a samples even predate the expansion of Indo-Europeans as a whole. https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#6/51.000/2.000. The presence of I2 in Europe is older than that of R1a.

The J1 in Dagestan, or the Caucasus as a whole, has nothing to do with Arabs or any other Semitic speaking population. It is an offshoot of J-Z1842 and J-Z1828 which is a native CHG lineage, probably originating someplace around eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus during the Neolithic, Z1842 itself was found in a Kura-Araxes sample from Dagestan. J1 itself originates in the Caucasus region as suggested by the fact that the oldest sample was found in Paleolithic Georgia and J1 reaches highest diversity there. J-Z1828 was found in Bronze Age Anatolia, so J1 was definitely present in Anatolia prior to the Arabs. The J1 found in the Balkans, so far, isn't of Ottoman input. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j_gbbh1psWPgoR8fol-6phvBkDCUKtKeTOJAq4RH6_c/htmlview

Nobody said anything about the Ottomans being Greeks, not all J2a clades are Greek.

Kelmendasi
06-09-19, 22:34
You will find a chart with R1a's main subclades per country (for Europe) on this site:

http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r1a-statistic-02-2018-14-new/

The data used to prepare it is supposed to come from Eupedia and FTDNA R1a Project (as of March 2018/7500 samples).
But I do not know whether it is reliable or not.
I tried to post the chart earlier, but it seems that it needs to be authorized first.

By the way, this thread's subject is R1a-CTS1211 in Albania and the Balkans.
Sorry for derailing the thread a bit

ShpataEMadhe
06-09-19, 23:20
I see that you aren't all that familiar with these haplogroups and their histories, I would suggest that you read the Eupedia articles and get some sort of idea of these haplogroups.
There have been multiple I2a samples found in Europe that date to periods predating Slavic expansions, in fact most of the I2a samples even predate the expansion of Indo-Europeans as a whole. https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#6/51.000/2.000. The presence of I2 in Europe is older than that of R1a.
The J1 in Dagestan, or the Caucasus as a whole, has nothing to do with Arabs or any other Semitic speaking population. It is an offshoot of J-Z1842 and J-Z1828 which is a native CHG lineage, probably originating someplace around eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus during the Neolithic, Z1842 itself was found in a Kura-Araxes sample from Dagestan. J1 itself originates in the Caucasus region as suggested by the fact that the oldest sample was found in Paleolithic Georgia and J1 reaches highest diversity there. J-Z1828 was found in Bronze Age Anatolia, so J1 was definitely present in Anatolia prior to the Arabs. The J1 found in the Balkans, so far, isn't of Ottoman input. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j_gbbh1psWPgoR8fol-6phvBkDCUKtKeTOJAq4RH6_c/htmlview
Nobody said anything about the Ottomans being Greeks, not all J2a clades are Greek.
Is there somewhere we can continue this discussion properly on this board?

Kelmendasi
06-09-19, 23:47
Is there somewhere we can continue this discussion properly on this board?
Unfortunately I'm not aware of any threads which are really relevant to this discussion. Maybe PM or someone could open up a thread.

Dibran
07-09-19, 13:43
I can't see it. I don't understand how south slavs have so much more i2a than r1a yet albanians have roughly equal, some places have higher r1a than i2a whereas some places like kosova have more i2a than r1a which proves more a bit Slavic input into that particular region of albanians. Also doesn't Bulgaria have more r1a than South slavs yet much less i2a than them?
For me r1a had to have come either before the initial Slavic invasion OR after. Where did North r1a come from, which race exactly were they before the vikings took over? Or did they come after the vikings controlled that land?
i2a invaded Europe and the places where they killed off other races for i2a to become the majority are the true south Slavic nations. This doesn't mean they had to kill everyone, it just meant they needed to be the majority power just like i2a is in Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia etc. As for r1a travelling with the slavs maybe it did but long after the slavs settled in europe and assimilated r1a's around them (so the eastern European clade you're talking about), the ones they left alive. This would make r1a indo European but I don't know which race.
Another theory is that majority i2a came first to Europe during the initial Slavic invasions and then they brought r1a's along with them years later to fill up the newly won land. Maybe after this "peace" period albanians and other balkan countries were more willing to accept slavs (with the new r1a's) but I give this theory a 2/10 because the figures clearly don't add up.
As for Asian r1a it would be nice to know which countries have them most but I reckon the ottoman were mostly j1 anyway, they were continuing the Arab conquests their ancestors had started prior. And you do find a bit of j1 in balkans because of it and especially turkey where its a lot more (10%).
It would be great if someone could make charts of all the major r1a sub clades to make things a bit easier.

Ottoman Turks were not mainly J1. Where did you get that?

They have it sure. However, as far as I have seen(including the recent Macedonia study that samples over 100 Turks) they seem to belong to some variety of J2a. J1 in them is not the same as in Albanians.

Also, J1 has quiet a bit of diversity in Albanians despite how few the samples are. And some of them have huge TMRCA’s which have nothing to do recently with Ottomans.

As far as R1a/I2a, as Kelmendasi said, bottlenecks can cause the frequencies of haplogroup a to grow/decline over time. Now, of course not all R1a/I2a is from Slavs. But it all depends on the subclades.

Some r1a clades are more common than others region to region. Illyri’s clade is not really common at all. Despite its parent possibly being a Balto-Slav. It shows, like Dibra cluster, a subclade that is not common or widespread among Slavs. Think of it like a staircase with each step representing a forefather.

Some clades were more commonly participating in the Slavic migration whilst others could have sprinkled out earlier or later explaining their absence amongst a wider demographic.

The most common L1029 clade in southslavs for instance is YP417. Yet, the most common L1029 in northern Greeks is YP263. It doesn’t mean that they are separate cultures. It just means the early wave of L1029 men to Greece were predominantly YP263. Every clade represents a forefather. The more diverse clades are in a population is usually a good indication of where the line originated or moved in mass.

Of course Goths, Bastarnae, and even Antes mercenaries that protected the Danube limes for Rome all carried R1a either originally or via assimilation in their movements.

So naturally some isolated clades may exist. This doesn’t change the general origin of these lineages around Central/Eastern Europe. Also, majority of the clades are not like these isolated cases. Ergo, typical of the Slavic expansions.

Tutkun Arnaut
07-09-19, 13:56
Ottoman Turks were not mainly J1. Where did you get that?

They have it sure. However, as far as I have seen(including the recent Macedonia study that samples over 100 Turks) they seem to belong to some variety of J2a. J1 in them is not the same as in Albanians.

Also, J1 has quiet a bit of diversity in Albanians despite how few the samples are. And some of them have huge TMRCA’s which have nothing to do recently with Ottomans.

As far as R1a/I2a, as Kelmendasi said, bottlenecks can cause the frequencies of haplogroup a to grow/decline over time. Now, of course not all R1a/I2a is from Slavs. But it all depends on the subclades.

Some r1a clades are more common than others region to region. Illyri’s clade is not really common at all. Despite its parent possibly being a Balto-Slav. It shows, like Dibra cluster, a subclade that is not common or widespread among Slavs. Think of it like a staircase with each step representing a forefather.

Some clades were more commonly participating in the Slavic migration whilst others could have sprinkled out earlier or later explaining their absence amongst a wider demographic.

The most common L1029 clade in southslavs for instance is YP417. Yet, the most common L1029 in northern Greeks is YP263. It doesn’t mean that they are separate cultures. It just means the early wave of L1029 men to Greece were predominantly YP263. Every clade represents a forefather. The more diverse clades are in a population is usually a good indication of where the line originated or moved in mass.

Of course Goths, Bastarnae, and even Antes mercenaries that protected the Danube limes for Rome all carried R1a either originally or via assimilation in their movements.

So naturally some isolated clades may exist. This doesn’t change the general origin of these lineages around Central/Eastern Europe. Also, majority of the clades are not like these isolated cases. Ergo, typical of the Slavic expansions.

I think Turks were mostly J2a. South ALBANIA get lots of it.

Kelmendasi
07-09-19, 14:12
I think Turks were mostly J2a. South ALBANIA get lots of it.
The majority of J2a in Southern Albania, and Albania as a whole, doesn't seem to be of Ottoman Turkish input. Most seems to be of possible Latin origin with others probably being local Balkan lineages that were carried by Illyrians and other locals, a small amount is of Greek origin as well.

ShpataEMadhe
07-09-19, 14:51
I think Turks were mostly J2a. South ALBANIA get lots of it.
This is off topic again but ottoman (osman, uthman etc) were mostly arabs in terms of their father lines, j1 become a big group in middle East from prior arab expansion before ottoman era. Initially they were j1 + j2a + Asian r1a before they started deploying balkan men. J2a was common in Greece, Turkey and parts of Middle east so some would have been j2a too but j2a would have been in South albania from byzantine era anyway. There is no such thing as Turkish ethnicity, they were just greeks with some iranian/middle eastern input from the east and minimal turkic input. THEN they had 10% arab input.

For me most J1 in Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, serbia, Bosnia etc is from ottoman era until j1 is found in balkans before ottoman period, has it been found? Also, as for several different sub clades, how does mutation work and why does it happen?

Also arabs broke into Greece before ottoman period:

"In 904, the Arabs sacked Thessaloniki, their greatest achievement in Greece, while four years later they were defeated by Byzantine general Himerios in the Aegean.[2] Nikephoros Phokas noted in 961 the increase of Arabs in Greece."

Kelmendasi
07-09-19, 15:09
This is off topic again but ottoman (osman, uthman etc) were mostly arabs in terms of their father lines, j1 become a big group in middle East from prior arab expansion before ottoman era. Initially they were j1 + j2a + Asian r1a before they started deploying balkan men. J2a was common in Greece, Turkey and parts of Middle east so some would have been j2a too but j2a would have been in South albania from byzantine era anyway. There is no such thing as Turkish ethnicity, they were just greeks with some iranian/middle eastern input from the east and minimal turkic input. THEN they had 10% arab input.

For me most J1 in Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, serbia, Bosnia etc is from ottoman era until j1 is found in balkans before ottoman period, has it been found? Also, as for several different sub clades, how does mutation work and why does it happen?

Also arabs broke into Greece before ottoman period:

"In 904, the Arabs sacked Thessaloniki, their greatest achievement in Greece, while four years later they were defeated by Byzantine general Himerios in the Aegean.[2] Nikephoros Phokas noted in 961 the increase of Arabs in Greece."
It's very clear that you don't know what you're talking about. Things have been explained to you very clearly but you choose not to understand, you can carry on typing nonsense that makes no sense whatsoever. The J1 isn't from the Ottoman era, no evidence supports that it came then. Most of it came between the Bronze Age and Roman era, with some even possibly coming in during the Neolithic or earlier (as is the case for J-Y19093). Also the Ottoman dynasty wasn't Arab but Turkic in origin.
You seem to have an obsession with linking J1 with Arabs, but you fail to understand that only 1 large clade under P58 can be linked to them, that clade is FGC11. Even some lineages under FGC11 aren't Arab but pre-Arabic, the Balkans is lacking in Arabic clades.
We have already derailed this thread enough, open up another thread if you wish to carry on discussing.

Illyri
07-09-19, 15:23
They have it sure. However, as far as I have seen(including the recent Macedonia study that samples over 100 Turks) they seem to belong to some variety of J2a. J1 in them is not the same as in Albanians.

Can you please post a reference of/or a link to this Macedonia Study ?
I am interested to read about it since Macedonia is the only Balkan country for which I get a percentage higher than 2% in FTDNA's YDNA Ancestral Origins (12 markers, exact match), while with 25 and 37 markers, I have just Albania but at only 0,3 % (genetic distance -1 and -4). Though I do not fully understand how significant these percentages can be.

Ownstyler
07-09-19, 18:19
Can you please post a reference of/or a link to this Macedonia Study ?

It is here (https://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(19)30109-7/fulltext).

ShpataEMadhe
08-09-19, 15:11
Can someone explain to me why Bosnia has almost 3x i2a over r1a and why bulgaria has equal of both.

Illyri
08-09-19, 17:22
Can someone explain to me why Bosnia has almost 3x i2a over r1a and why bulgaria has equal of both.

I do not know for sure but the reasons can be multiple (genetic drift, bottlenecks, more or less succesful expansions after the 7th century). Besides, we also have to take into account that the original genetic make up of said tribes was not identical (which is also reflected by the frequencies and deep subclades present today). Besides, it is worth noting that Slavs and proto-Bulgarians were distinct tribes, although they arrived in Bulgaria almost at the same time. The initial homeland of the proto-Bulgarians was in the foothills of Pamir and Hindu Kush (Balhara for the Indians/Bactria for the Greeks), which could justify some Y DNA differences. Subsequently, they founded their European realms (i) Old Great Bulgaria between the Caucasus, the Caspian Sea and the Dnieper River, (ii) Volga-Kama Bulgaria and (iii) Danubian Bulgaria (Asparukh).

According to Primorac 2011, Bosnian males have 50 % of Hg I and 13,7 % of R1a (while in Croatia, Hg I represents 49 % of the fatherlines and Hg R1a 27 %). In summary, the authors write that:

(i) Hg I (mutation P37) is very ancient in Europe (25'000 ybp);
(ii) it expanded from a Western LGM refugium in the Balkans; and
(iii) it likely contributed to the post LGM peopling of Bosnia and Croatia.

I personally think that this reasoning is not convincing, in terms of continuity, if you look at the young age of the deep subclades present in those territories and at their limited diversity.

11388

Regarding R1a, the authors state that this Hg was possibly introduced in Croatia from the Northern part of Eastern Europe through the widespread of the Corded Ware cultures (3200/2300 BC) down through the more recent Slavic expansions. Finally, they conclude that R1a is the second most frequent haplogroup in the mainland and island populations, which implies that at least some of the founding ancestral groups of Croats originated from populations having possibly migrated from southern Russia 2000 ybp. As for the lower R1a frequency in Bosnia, the authors simply conclude that the Bosnian population shows a smaller portion of genes for the Ukranian refugium.

From what I see in Karachanak's study of 2013, Bulgarians have 20,2 % of I-M423, 18,1 % of E-V13 and 17,5 % of R1a (described in the supporting information as R-M17, 43 % of which being R-M458). The authors write about Bulgarian R1a that this haplogroup could be a signal of various events ranging from early post LGM expansions to more recent Slavic demography.

As I wrote earlier, it all depends from the specific subclades and their age.

Illyri
19-10-19, 22:15
I just noticed on www.yfull.com/tree (v. 7.08) that the subclades under R-CTS8816/Y2902 have been reorganized.
As a result, R-YP3994 does not appear as basal to Y2902 anymore but in the end of the list. Has anyone an idea about the reasons for this reorganization ? What does it mean ?

These changes were all reversed in the new update (v 7.09 21.10.19).

Illyri
19-10-19, 22:58
I also noticed that the YDNA path to R-YP3994 has been updated on SNP tracker.

11479

Of course, it is not really reliable since this simulated route is only calculated based on the geographical origins reported by the modern carriers (and not on ancient DNA) but it is funny to see that, after inclusion of my sample, the founder of R-YP3994 in the Iron Age is located a bit more in the South. He is now supposed to have dwelled by the Danube in central Hungary, at the gateway to the Balkans.

Nik
20-10-19, 01:09
I also noticed that the YDNA path to R-YP3994 has been updated on SNP tracker.

11479

Of course, it is not really reliable since this simulated route is only calculated based on the geographical origins reported by the modern carriers (and not on ancient DNA) but it is funny to see that, after inclusion of my sample, the founder of R-YP3994 in the Iron Age is located a bit more in the South. He is now supposed to have dwelled by the Danube in central Hungary, at the gateway to the Balkans.
The interpretations are still mostly retarded and to be taken with a grain of salt or to completely ignore them for a couple more years like I do until we get ancient DNA.

Just wait until they test some ancient Balkan Dna and call it's North-Eastern shift Slavic.

Illyri
02-11-19, 17:48
However, nothing is certain until you do a BigY test. This will help to determine if you form a cluster with the Italian, or Russian cluster, or maybe even form your own specific Albanian haplotype.

I just received my BigY results. I have 18 private variants. And I cluster with the Sicilian (he is my only BigY match and we share one variant). But it does not say anything about the TMRCA. How can I calculate it ?

Illyri
02-11-19, 17:50
It seems the Italian and whoever hid their results from YFull share 5 SNPs. From that, I would estimate that their lines split around 1300-1700 ybp, which points to a Late Anitiquity/Early Middle Ages expansion. This is only based on 1-2 samples, so let's see how you compare once your BigY is ready.

How to do this comparison ?

Leka
02-11-19, 19:56
Should be around 1500ybp. Not sure thought what’s the case with the hidden sample, you could potentially be closer to him.

Anyway, the Sicilian looks like is with origin from the Balkans. Might be Arberesh.

Illyri
02-11-19, 20:49
Should be around 1500ybp. Not sure thought what’s the case with the hidden sample, you could potentially be closer to him.

Anyway, the Sicilian looks like is with origin from the Balkans. Might be Arberesh.

Would it help to upload the data to Yfull ?
The Sicilian could be arberesh. I found someone with the same family name leading some arberesh fighters during the Italian revolution.

Leka
02-11-19, 20:52
Would it help to upload the data to Yfull ?
The Sicilian could be arberesh. I found someone with the same family name leading some arberesh fighters during the Italian revolution.
Yes, upload it there as well. Lately though they have been slacking around, but I think it's still worth it to purchase their analysis.

Illyri
08-11-19, 23:51
I saw in the recent paper « Ancient Rome : A genetic crossroad... » that Haplogroup R1a (+J1 & E1b) was present in Rome and/or its surroundings during the Imperial period 27-300 BCE (see Supp. Materials, p. 12) and Figure S5.
It is not found anymore in Late Antiquity and during the Medieval period.
11567

Illyri
09-11-19, 00:02
It says there was a substantial Ancestry shift towards Eastern Mediterranean / Near East.

In the S2 table, I could find :

> R-F1345 (under Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2122).
> R-M207 (but it seems it is R2a);

But neither the article nor the Supp. Materials say anything specific about R1a and how it arrived in Rome.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Illyri
02-04-20, 22:10
On Yfull R-Y2902's TMRCA was recently reduced from 2400 to 2000.
Can someone explain what has changed in their age estimation method ?
There must be a reason but I do not understand it since the figures given by some of its subclades are older than 2000.

Dibran
06-04-20, 05:08
On Yfull R-Y2902's TMRCA was recently reduced from 2400 to 2000.
Can someone explain what has changed in their age estimation method ?
There must be a reason but I do not understand it since the figures given by some of its subclades are older than 2000.

If I'm not mistaken I think its determined by average of the total estimate. Perhaps some new added samples lowered the average.

This happens constantly with my line. Basal L1029 has jumped between 1950-2150ybp.

Right now it's at 2100. May drop back to 2000 with new samples. It all depends. Michal, a project admin of R1a says the accurate TMRCAs are 15% older than yfull estimates. So it could be 2000-2300 years.

td120
06-04-20, 06:28
An upgrade from Hg19 to Hg38 would also change the TMRC slightly.

Illyri
12-04-20, 14:51
If I'm not mistaken I think its determined by average of the total estimate. Perhaps some new added samples lowered the average.

This happens constantly with my line. Basal L1029 has jumped between 1950-2150ybp.

Right now it's at 2100. May drop back to 2000 with new samples. It all depends. Michal, a project admin of R1a says the accurate TMRCAs are 15% older than yfull estimates. So it could be 2000-2300 years.

Thanks Dibran. I also thought that this had to do with new samples and the average age. I have seen your L-1029's age changing a bit over the last months and I would also expect the estimation to change +/- 50/100 years but not 400 years at once. In the case of R-Y2902 the average figure did not change significantly. I had a look on the age calculation on Yfull and it seems the change did not occur because of new samples since the average number of every sample gives a figure higher than 2000. So it does not seem to be a purely arithmetical issue.

I remember that previously Yfull calculated R-Y2902's TMRCA based upon the age of its daughter R-Y3226, which is around 2500 years. Even today, some subclades of R-Y2902 have higher TMRCA's based upon the samples (for example R-Y35192 > 2277 years or R-YP1144 > 2389 years) than their forming age (2000 ybp).

This is what I fail to understand and the reason why I asked if they changed something in their method.

Illyri
05-08-20, 23:48
With the last update a few days ago, R-Y2902's TMRCA jumped 500 years in the past (without addition of a significant number of new samples, just based upon R-Y3226's TMRCA). It is now 2500 ybp. Does anyone understand why ?

Trojet
06-08-20, 15:39
With the last update a few days ago, R-Y2902's TMRCA jumped 500 years in the past (without addition of a significant number of new samples, just based upon R-3226's TMRCA). It is now 2500 ybp. Does anyone understand why ?

Yup, it looks like they made the change to 2500 ybp based on subclade R-Y3226. When clicking "info" next to R-Y2902 TMRCA, towards the bottom it says: "NOTE: Age estimation has been taken from downstream subclade R-Y3226, its age estimation is more (2500 > 1930)"

So basically they're saying its TMRCA cannot be less than the estimated TMRCA of one of its descending lineages. I don't know which one in reality would be more accurate, but I tend to think the average of all descending lineages, especially if there is 10+

Illyri
06-08-20, 22:04
Yup, it looks like they made the change to 2500 ybp based on subclade R-Y3226. When clicking "info" next to R-Y2902 TMRCA, towards the bottom it says: "NOTE: Age estimation has been taken from downstream subclade R-Y3226, its age estimation is more (2500 > 1930)"
So basically they're saying its TMRCA cannot be less than the estimated TMRCA of one of its descending lineages. I don't know which one in reality would be more accurate, but I tend to think the average of all descending lineages, especially if there is 10+

Thanks Trojet.

Yfull changed the TMRCA of R-Y2902 from 2400 ybp to 2000 ybp 4 months ago. And now they reversed it with no clear reason. In FTDNA's R1a-Y1392 Project they write that the branch's age is around 2500 years (and they have more subclades and samples than yfull, but perhaps they also rely on yfull's calculations).

By the way, I am aware that these TMRCA's calculations are only approximative estimates but could it be that the first lineage to split from the parent branch dit it 2500 ybp and the last 1930 ybp ? The MRCA could not have all the subsequent parallel mutations, which must have occurred in different carriers and not necessarily at the same time. Perhaps I do not get this right, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the 12 first ancestors (founders) of R-Y2902 subclades lived between 2500 ybp and 1930 ybp ?

Trojet
09-08-20, 00:23
Thanks Trojet.
Yfull changed the TMRCA of R-Y2902 from 2400 ybp to 2000 ybp 4 months ago. And now they reversed it with no clear reason. In FTDNA's R1a-Y1392 Project they write that the branch's age is around 2500 years (and they have more subclades and samples than yfull, but perhaps they also rely on yfull's calculations).
By the way, I am aware that these TMRCA's calculations are only approximative estimates but could it be that the first lineage to split from the parent branch dit it 2500 ybp and the last 1930 ybp ? The MRCA could not have all the subsequent parallel mutations, which must have occurred in different carriers and not necessarily at the same time. Perhaps I do not get this right, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the 12 first ancestors (founders) of R-Y2902 subclades lived between 2500 ybp and 1930 ybp ?

Yes, based on current research, they are parallel lines, literally brothers that descend from an ancestor who lived between 1930 and 2500 ybp, defined by R-Y2902. At YFull, there is currently 15 of them, as each R-Y2902* forms an independent lineage from the others. Since current NGS technology on average detects a SNP for every three generations, they should've occurred within 100 years. And so it's possible that many of them are in fact descended from one brother who subsequently had multiple sons, and the current technology cannot detect a SNP that joins them. Hopefully future NGS technology will allow the detection of a SNP for every generations. Anyway, this points to a huge demographic expansion of R-Y2902 and its immediate descendants.