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View Full Version : R1a-CTS1211 > CTS8816 > Y2902 > YP3994 in Albania and in the Balkans



Illyri
03-09-19, 22:44
I am Albanian (my fatherline originates from South Albania). I recently discovered that my Y-Haplogroup is R1a-CTS1211> CTS8816 > Y2902 > YP3994.

R1a-M417represents around 8 % of the male lineages in Albania (9 % among Tosk Albanians only). As such, it is the fourth major male lineage in Albania, naturally coming after E1b-V13 (28 %), R1B-M269 (18,5 %) and J2b-L283 (18 %). R1a’s subclades present in Albania include:

- R-M458 (mainly L1029 Dibra Cluster + L260 > YP1337/YP254);
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- R-Z280 (mainly CTS1211> YP951/ L366/P278.2/Y33*/YP3994 + a little Z92).
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According to the Phylogenetic tree of Haplogroup R1a-Z280, R-CTS8816 > Y2902 is nowadays present in the Slavic countries, Germany, Scandinavia, South France, Spain and Italy and as you can see, the tree’s author raised the question of a possible Gothic expansion of these subclades.
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As a matter of fact, R-Y2902 (formed 4200 ybp TMRCA 2400 ybp) presents a very interesting distribution in Europe since it is also present in places where no Slavic migrations are historically recorded.
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SNP Tracker (Scaled Innovation) shows that its daughter clade R-YP3994 is present in Western Slovakia since the Iron Age. That being said, I do not know how reliable this tracker is and whether it is based on ancient DNA or merely refers to the forming ages of the various subclades.

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In the FTDNA R1a Project, the deep subclade R-YP3994 is currently present in the United Kingdom, in Sicily (Palermo), Albania, Bulgaria (Stara Zagora) and Russia. In addition to me, there is another Çam Albanian (from Gumenica, Greece), who should belong to the same subclade (he did not test beyond R-M198 but is my only YDNA remote "cousin").

The fact that R-YP3994 is present in the Balkans and in South Italy as well could support a Gothic related expansion (but its current geographical spread in Southern Europe could also be the result of the Albanian medieval migrations to Italy and Bulgaria). Although this is no decisive evidence, such hypothesis is not inconsistent with R-YP3994’s forming age, which is 2400 ybp (by reference to R-Y2902's TMRCA).

An administrator from the Albanian DNA Project kindly looked at my results and concluded that this lineage's arrival in Albania could be Gothic related but was more likely brought by the Slavic migrations in the Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages (he pointed out that certain sister subclades under R-Y2902 are exclusively Polish and Russian and doubted that the Goths had such an impact in Eastern Europe). On the other hand, it is also worth noting that the company through which I first tested (up to the CTS8816 level) did not mention the Goths at all and concluded that CTS8816 could have been brought to the Balkans by the Slavs (and/or the Illyrians, which does not seem serious in view of the available ancient DNA evidence).

Any additional information, comments or thoughts on R-YP3994, its place of origin, phylogeny, forming age or TMRCA would be most welcome.

Dibran
04-09-19, 14:19
.........................

In most cases I would say it probably arrived with the Slavic migrations, or at least a Proto-Slav/Balto-Slav that was assimilated in Gothic movements and brought a tad earlier. However, your clade R-YP3994 only has an Italian on Yfull. On R1a project theres a Italian, American, and 2 Russians.

Considering how basal it appears, I don't see how Gothic is out of the question. Gothic in the sense it was assimilated in their movements. However, nothing is certain until you do a BigY test. This will help to determine if you form a cluster with the Italian, or Russian cluster, or maybe even form your own specific Albanian haplotype. There is also a I2-Din clade which is not really found outside Greeks or east European Jews. So for all we know some clades split from Balto-Slavs earlier and joined other cultures.

Ownstyler
04-09-19, 15:28
SNP Tracker (Scaled Innovation) shows that its daughter clade R-YP3994 is present in Western Slovakia since the Iron Age. That being said, I do not know how reliable this tracker is and whether it is based on ancient DNA or merely refers to the forming ages of the various subclades.

You can see most Ancient DNA finds here (https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1TYJrkLXUap0Ip-8EIeTH-uzN4V8&ll=45.49395456132542%2C24.025325085150826&z=6).


Perhaps, it would help a to know R-YP3994’s forming age, which does not appear on www.yfull.com (http://www.yfull.com/).

As Trojet said, the forming age is always the same as the tmrca of the former clade.

It seems the Italian and whoever hid their results from YFull share 5 SNPs. From that, I would estimate that their lines split around 1300-1700 ybp, which points to a Late Anitiquity/Early Middle Ages expansion. This is only based on 1-2 samples, so let's see how you compare once your BigY is ready.

Illyri
04-09-19, 19:09
However, your clade R-YP3994 only has an Italian on Yfull. On R1a project theres a Italian, American, and 2 Russians.

Considering how basal it appears, I don't see how Gothic is out of the question. Gothic in the sense it was assimilated in their movements. However, nothing is certain until you do a BigY test. This will help to determine if you form a cluster with the Italian, or Russian cluster, or maybe even form your own specific Albanian haplotype
Thank you for your insightful analysis. YP3994 is indeed basal (although quite young) and I think this is also reflected by the current geographic spread.

However, there is only one Russian on R1a Project. The other gentlemen is from Bulgaria (Stara Zagora). Of course I am speculating, but he could still belong to an « albanian » cluster since some orthodox Albanians - now probably entirely assimilated - settled in Stara Zagora (and other villages) in the Middle Ages (see Robert Elsie’s Historical Dictionnary of Albania).

And the other participant is from U.K., which -
correct me if I am wrong - could be an indication of an « East germanic » assimilation of YP3994.

But you are right, BigY will probably provide new elements to sort this out.


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Illyri
04-09-19, 19:15
You can see most Ancient DNA finds here (https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1TYJrkLXUap0Ip-8EIeTH-uzN4V8&ll=45.49395456132542%2C24.025325085150826&z=6).



As Trojet said, the forming age is always the same as the tmrca of the former clade.

It seems the Italian and whoever hid their results from YFull share 5 SNPs. From that, I would estimate that their lines split around 1300-1700 ybp, which points to a Late Anitiquity/Early Middle Ages expansion. This is only based on 1-2 samples, so let's see how you compare once your BigY is ready.

Thanks for the Link with Ancient DNA samples.

The person hiding his results could be the British gentleman, since the two other participants in the subclade did not test deep enough from what I can see in the R1a project.

Yes we will see if anything changes with the BigY results.



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AxelHagen
04-09-19, 23:09
Goths were formed in central-eastern Europe from Wielbark culture and before slavic language expansion in Europe. Before in this thread i've seen a quote where this subclade in Northern Italy associated with another Eastern Germanic tribes(Rugii and Heruli). And how east germanic tribes can exist, if they were formed in Poland? Are slavs killed them all?

Illyri
04-09-19, 23:30
And how east germanic tribes can exist, if they were formed in Poland? Are slavs killed them all?

The ethnic landscape likely was very different in 400 BC, i.e. at the time YP3994 formed. Most likely the various peoples living in Central Eastern Europe had more in common than nowadays. In any case, I do not think that there was a lot of "killing" involved (at least none is historically recorded to my knowledge). It was rather cultural assimilation from both sides. East Germans absorbed R1a tribes then migrated. Those who stayed were probably assimilated back during the centuries.

ShpataEMadhe
05-09-19, 21:20
R1a is not to do with the Slavic invasions in the balkans. If you look at the total gheg albanians, they have more r1a (5%) than true south Slavic gene i2a (3.9%) yet south slavs have a lot more i2a than r1a. How can ghegs have more r1a than i2a when south slavs have more than double i2a over r1a if this is all from Slavic invasion?
Also in kosova they have more i2a (6.7%) and only (1.2%) of r1a which shows slavs had a bigger impact there instead of north albania though more testing needs to be done there to get a better picture
Can someone explain the mystery of r1a? Which indo European race was spread around Central and South Europe before Slavic invasion other than illyrians?

Johane Derite
05-09-19, 21:39
R1a is not to do with the Slavic invasions in the balkans. If you look at the total gheg albanians, they have more r1a (5%) than true south Slavic gene i2a (3.9%) yet south slavs have a lot more i2a than r1a. How can ghegs have more r1a than i2a when south slavs have more than double i2a over r1a if this is all from Slavic invasion?
Also in kosova they have more i2a (6.7%) and only (1.2%) of r1a which shows slavs had a bigger impact there instead of north albania though more testing needs to be done there to get a better picture
Can someone explain the mystery of r1a? Which indo European race was spread around Central and South Europe before Slavic invasion other than illyrians?

False on many levels. Tosks have 9.2% R1a, Ghegs have 5%. And they in general show up in zones where there have been or are bulgarian minorities.

Illyri
05-09-19, 22:52
R1a is not to do with the Slavic invasions in the balkans. If you look at the total gheg albanians, they have more r1a (5%) than true south Slavic gene i2a (3.9%) yet south slavs have a lot more i2a than r1a. How can ghegs have more r1a than i2a when south slavs have more than double i2a over r1a if this is all from Slavic invasion?
Also in kosova they have more i2a (6.7%) and only (1.2%) of r1a which shows slavs had a bigger impact there instead of north albania though more testing needs to be done there to get a better picture
Can someone explain the mystery of r1a? Which indo European race was spread around Central and South Europe before Slavic invasion other than illyrians?

As regards the I2a/R1a relation, the proportions of I2a and R1a were perhaps different in the various tribes that invaded the Balkans during the Migrations times and settled in various areas. Although I would personally like R-YP3994 to stem from Illyrians, it seems unlikely given its forming age (around 400 BC). Everything is theoretically possible, but for the time being, ancient DNA samples have revealed no R1a of Illyrian origin.

Illyri
05-09-19, 23:09
False on many levels. Tosks have 9.2% R1a, Ghegs have 5%. And they in general show up in zones where there have been or are bulgarian minorities.

I agree that R1a is more frequent in South Albania (and its level increases going more South). And by the way, I2a-CTS10228 is also higher among Tosk Albanians (10,8%).

But I have no knowledge of existing Bulgarian minorities in Southern Toskëria. Can you be more specific here ? Of course Bulgarian R1a includes R-CTS8816 but it is very diversified (L366, YP340, YP617, Z685, L-1029, Z93, R-M198 [417-]). More generally, I do not think that we can reduce R1a's presence in Albania to Bulgarian minorities, which cannot totally explain the current geographical spread of R-Y2902 (England; South France; Sardinia; Sicily; Central Germany) and R-YP3994 (England; Sicily).

Finally, there have also been medieval Albanian migrations to Bulgaria (as I wrote above), which makes even more difficult to draw conclusions when it comes to specific deep subclades.

Johane Derite
06-09-19, 00:14
I agree that R1a is more frequent in South Albania (and its level increases going more South). And by the way, I2a-CTS10228 is also higher among Tosk Albanians (10,8%).

But I have no knowledge of existing Bulgarian minorities in Southern Toskëria. Can you be more specific here ? Of course Bulgarian R1a includes R-CTS8816 but it is very diversified (L366, YP340, YP617, Z685, L-1029, Z93, R-M198 [417-]). More generally, I do not think that we can reduce R1a's presence in Albania to Bulgarian minorities, which cannot totally explain the current geographical spread of R-Y2902 (England; South France; Sardinia; Sicily; Central Germany) and R-YP3994 (England; Sicily).

Finally, there have also been medieval Albanian migrations to Bulgaria (as I wrote above), which makes even more difficult to draw conclusions when it comes to specific deep subclades.


I'm not as familiar with if there are existing Bulgarian minorities today, but that is why i specified where there "have been or are"

South East Albania has the most old bulgarian toponymy, and it was ravaged early on by the slavic invasions. Around ohrid and Kora was the bulgarian administration and orthodoxy power base called kutmichevitsa. This is why South-East Albania has the highest slav markers.

Also of course, there are many diverse R1a's and i don't want to simplify when some could be goth, maybe even dacian, etc, who knows, but the general idea is that its most likely slav unlike what that commenter was saying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kutmichevitsa

ShpataEMadhe
06-09-19, 12:06
False on many levels. Tosks have 9.2% R1a, Ghegs have 5%. And they in general show up in zones where there have been or are bulgarian minorities.

I never mentioned Tosks, I asked how can ghegs in Albania have more r1a than i2a when south slavs have much more i2a than r1a. Surely r1a is something else not related to Slavic invasion according to this, Slavic invasion probably reduced the r1a number in places around and below ukraine. What groups were living in Ukraine, serbia and further down before the Slavic invasion? R1a must have been in Europe long before Slavic invasion and maybe a few coming afterwards from Asian ottoman groups but I haven't been able to look at the sub clades in European populations. R1a is also found in North Europe (20% in Norway) including Scotland and Iceland!

Can someone split the sub clades or r1a and give a percentage of findings in central Europe, North Europe, South Europe and Asia?

Illyri
06-09-19, 12:29
I'm not as familiar with if there are existing Bulgarian minorities today, but that is why i specified where there "have been or are"

South East Albania has the most old bulgarian toponymy, and it was ravaged early on by the slavic invasions. Around ohrid and Korça was the bulgarian administration and orthodoxy power base called kutmichevitsa. This is why South-East Albania has the highest slav markers.

Also of course, there are many diverse R1a's and i don't want to simplify when some could be goth, maybe even dacian, etc, who knows, but the general idea is that its most likely slav unlike what that commenter was saying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kutmichevitsa

Sorry if my question bothered you. I had well understood what you wrote, but asked since nowadays minorities pop up everywhere in Albania.

In any case, thank you for adding the context. Historical input is always precious.

I agree with you regarding R1a's various origins and the "slav unlike" comment. As for the Bulgarian link, I was a bit misled by the following map :

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showing the various R1a subclades in Eurasia. If I understood correctly the color legend, the map displays mainly R-L1029 in Bulgaria., i.e. a subclade distinct from the R-CTS3402 present in South Albania and Northern Greece.

But said map is most likely inaccurate since R1a in Northern and Middle Albania is not R-L1280 either (but mostly R-L1029 > Albanian Dibra Cluster).


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Kelmendasi
06-09-19, 17:02
I never mentioned Tosks, I asked how can ghegs in Albania have more r1a than i2a when south slavs have much more i2a than r1a. Surely r1a is something else not related to Slavic invasion according to this, Slavic invasion probably reduced the r1a number in places around and below ukraine. What groups were living in Ukraine, serbia and further down before the Slavic invasion? R1a must have been in Europe long before Slavic invasion and maybe a few coming afterwards from Asian ottoman groups but I haven't been able to look at the sub clades in European populations. R1a is also found in North Europe (20% in Norway) including Scotland and Iceland!

Can someone split the sub clades or r1a and give a percentage of findings in central Europe, North Europe, South Europe and Asia?
Ghegs actually have more I2a (~5.3) than R1a (~5%) but as you can see the percentages are almost the same, I assume you meant more R1a than I2a-CTS10228 which is around 3.9% in Ghegs. Ghegs have more R1a simply because the R1a men had more male children than the I2a-CTS10228 men, it's possible that once R1a was more common among early South Slavs but I2a-CTS10228 gradually became more dominant due to things like bottlenecks.

R1a numbers certainly weren't reduced by the Slavic migrations, if anything they were increased. R1a is the dominant marker among Slavs and so it was definitely spread with them. Most R1a clades present in Ghegs, and Tosks for that matter, do seem to be of Slavic origin. It's likely that they arrived during the early medieval and were assimilated by Albanians rather early on. There is a subclade of R1a present in some Ghegs that hasn't been found among Slavs today, that subclade is Y133383 which so far is mainly found in Dibra (both Macedonian and Albanian sides) and is a unique Albanian group. However, it is a subclade of L1029 which seems to be associated with Slavs and so we can assume that it arrived very early on and was assimilated by Albanian speakers. There is also a chance that it arrived via Goths. Also so far no Asiatic or Turkic R1a has been found among Albanians, I personally doubt very much that the Ottoman invasion aided in the spread of R1a since their genetic input as a whole was pretty much inexistant.

R1a in Northern Europe belongs to different clades than those found in Eastern Europe. Northern European R1a is dominated by Z284 which is linked to Proto-Germanic speakers and was mainly spread by Norsemen, there is also some L664 which is also linked to the Germanic peoples. Eastern European R1a is mainly Z280 and M458 which seems to be associated with the Slavs but there may be earlier clades that are of different origin.

ShpataEMadhe
06-09-19, 18:05
Ghegs actually have more I2a (~5.3) than R1a (~5%) but as you can see the percentages are almost the same, I assume you meant more R1a than I2a-CTS10228 which is around 3.9% in Ghegs. Ghegs have more R1a simply because the R1a men had more male children than the I2a-CTS10228 men, it's possible that once R1a was more common among early South Slavs but I2a-CTS10228 gradually became more dominant due to things like bottlenecks.
R1a numbers certainly weren't reduced by the Slavic migrations, if anything they were increased. R1a is the dominant marker among Slavs and so it was definitely spread with them. Most R1a clades present in Ghegs, and Tosks for that matter, do seem to be of Slavic origin. It's likely that they arrived during the early medieval and were assimilated by Albanians rather early on. There is a subclade of R1a present in some Ghegs that hasn't been found among Slavs today, that subclade is Y133383 which so far is mainly found in Dibra (both Macedonian and Albanian sides) and is a unique Albanian group. However, it is a subclade of L1029 which seems to be associated with Slavs and so we can assume that it arrived very early on and was assimilated by Albanian speakers. There is also a chance that it arrived via Goths. Also so far no Asiatic or Turkic R1a has been found among Albanians, I personally doubt very much that the Ottoman invasion aided in the spread of R1a since their genetic input as a whole was pretty much inexistant.
R1a in Northern Europe belongs to different clades than those found in Eastern Europe. Northern European R1a is dominated by Z284 which is linked to Proto-Germanic speakers and was mainly spread by Norsemen, there is also some L664 which is also linked to the Germanic peoples. Eastern European R1a is mainly Z280 and M458 which seems to be associated with the Slavs but there may be earlier clades that are of different origin.
I can't see it. I don't understand how south slavs have so much more i2a than r1a yet albanians have roughly equal, some places have higher r1a than i2a whereas some places like kosova have more i2a than r1a which proves more a bit Slavic input into that particular region of albanians. Also doesn't Bulgaria have more r1a than South slavs yet much less i2a than them?

For me r1a had to have come either before the initial Slavic invasion OR after. Where did North r1a come from, which race exactly were they before the vikings took over? Or did they come after the vikings controlled that land?

i2a invaded Europe and the places where they killed off other races for i2a to become the majority are the true south Slavic nations. This doesn't mean they had to kill everyone, it just meant they needed to be the majority power just like i2a is in Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia etc. As for r1a travelling with the slavs maybe it did but long after the slavs settled in europe and assimilated r1a's around them (so the eastern European clade you're talking about), the ones they left alive. This would make r1a indo European but I don't know which race.

Another theory is that majority i2a came first to Europe during the initial Slavic invasions and then they brought r1a's along with them years later to fill up the newly won land. Maybe after this "peace" period albanians and other balkan countries were more willing to accept slavs (with the new r1a's) but I give this theory a 2/10 because the figures clearly don't add up.

As for Asian r1a it would be nice to know which countries have them most but I reckon the ottoman were mostly j1 anyway, they were continuing the Arab conquests their ancestors had started prior. And you do find a bit of j1 in balkans because of it and especially turkey where its a lot more (10%).
It would be great if someone could make charts of all the major r1a sub clades to make things a bit easier.

Illyri
06-09-19, 18:21
I never mentioned Tosks, I asked how can ghegs in Albania have more r1a than i2a when south slavs have much more i2a than r1a. Surely r1a is something else not related to Slavic invasion according to this, Slavic invasion probably reduced the r1a number in places around and below ukraine. What groups were living in Ukraine, serbia and further down before the Slavic invasion? R1a must have been in Europe long before Slavic invasion and maybe a few coming afterwards from Asian ottoman groups but I haven't been able to look at the sub clades in European populations. R1a is also found in North Europe (20% in Norway) including Scotland and Iceland!

Can someone split the sub clades or r1a and give a percentage of findings in central Europe, North Europe, South Europe and Asia?

There might have been (old) R1a in Europe (and in the Balkans) before the slavic invasions. For example, this could be the case of R1a-Z93 (found in ancient Thrace and formed about 5000 ybp, TMRCA 4700 ybp) and/or of the very ancient R-M198 M417- (forming age 14000 ybp; TMRCA: 8600 ybp) reported on www.eupedia.com (http://www.eupedia.com) to be present in Bulgaria (and in Scotland per https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1a/).

But this could only work for subclades older than 4'500 years and if you look at R1a's subclades nowadays present in the Balkans, most of them are too young to qualify. Croatian searchers (BARAC et alii, EJHG [2003] 11, p. 540) state that the presence of R1a in Croatia's territory was the result of infiltrations occurred during the last 2000 years. One cannot be 100 % sure but when you compare with the ancient DNA finds in Croatia and their estimated ages (E1b-L618: 5485 BC / R1b - Z2103 : 2725 BC / J2n2-L283: 1550 BC), it gives you the impression that the arrival of R1a subclades currently present in our countries is much more recent.

As regards Scandinavian R1a, it stems out from distinct "Nordic" R1a subclades as pointed out by Kelmendasi (R-L664 / R-Z284), which scarce presence in the Balkans is most likely the result of Northmens' raids. In any case, we cannot draw any conclusion based on the situation in Northern Europe since ancient R1a has been found there (see above the link with ancient DNA samples posted by Ownstyler), which is (alas) not the case in Southern Europe.

Illyri
06-09-19, 19:04
For me r1a had to have come either before the initial Slavic invasion OR after. Where did North r1a come from, which race exactly were they before the vikings took over? Or did they come after the vikings controlled that land?

If R1a came before the Slavic expansions, the Goths would be good candidates given the forming ages and TMRCA's of the various subclades. Before them, came the Cimmerians and the Scythians (during the Iron Age). On this website, I found the following summary of migration waves:

"Historically, no other part of Europe was invaded a higher number of times by steppe peoples than the Balkans. Chronologically, the first R1a invaders might have come with the westward expansion of the Sredny Stog culture (from 4200 BCE), which led the way to a succession of steppe migrations that lasted for over 2,000 years until the end of the Yamna culture (3500-2000 BCE). These early invasions from the Steppe were probably conducted in majority by R1b men, accompanied by a small number of R1a. Then came the Thracians (1500 BCE), followed by the Illyrians (around 1200 BCE), and much later the Huns and the Alans (400 CE), the Avars, the Bulgars and the Serbs (all around 600 CE), and the Magyars (900 CE), among others. These peoples originated from different parts of the Eurasian Steppe, anywhere between Eastern Europe and Central Asia, thus contributing to the relatively high diversity of R1a subclades observed in Carpathians and the Balkans today, especially in Bulgaria and Romania. Nevertheless, the vast majority of R1a in Southeast Europe today appears to be of Slavic origin." (see History of "Haplogroup R1a", https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Slavic ).

But again, there is no evidence, such as Ancient DNA, regarding the Illyrians.

As regards, the Nordic R1a-L664/Z284, it seems that it came together with the first R1b migration waves from the Southern Steppe. These first R1a tribes contributed to the Germanic, Celtic and Italic cultures. At least, this is what results from the history of "Haplogroup R1a" published on this website (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Germanic ). You can also find in this article a list of the various subclades present in the Balkanic Countries (but unfortunately without percentages).

Kelmendasi
06-09-19, 20:19
I can't see it. I don't understand how south slavs have so much more i2a than r1a yet albanians have roughly equal, some places have higher r1a than i2a whereas some places like kosova have more i2a than r1a which proves more a bit Slavic input into that particular region of albanians. Also doesn't Bulgaria have more r1a than South slavs yet much less i2a than them?

For me r1a had to have come either before the initial Slavic invasion OR after. Where did North r1a come from, which race exactly were they before the vikings took over? Or did they come after the vikings controlled that land?

i2a invaded Europe and the places where they killed off other races for i2a to become the majority are the true south Slavic nations. This doesn't mean they had to kill everyone, it just meant they needed to be the majority power just like i2a is in Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia etc. As for r1a travelling with the slavs maybe it did but long after the slavs settled in europe and assimilated r1a's around them (so the eastern European clade you're talking about), the ones they left alive. This would make r1a indo European but I don't know which race.

Another theory is that majority i2a came first to Europe during the initial Slavic invasions and then they brought r1a's along with them years later to fill up the newly won land. Maybe after this "peace" period albanians and other balkan countries were more willing to accept slavs (with the new r1a's) but I give this theory a 2/10 because the figures clearly don't add up.

As for Asian r1a it would be nice to know which countries have them most but I reckon the ottoman were mostly j1 anyway, they were continuing the Arab conquests their ancestors had started prior. And you do find a bit of j1 in balkans because of it and especially turkey where its a lot more (10%).
It would be great if someone could make charts of all the major r1a sub clades to make things a bit easier.
Y-DNA frequencies can fluctuate very easily due to natural or unnatural cases such as war, frequency isn't all that important in this case since. Gheg Albanians having roughly an equal amount of R1a and I2a means nothing, those are just frequencies. Bulgarians have around 17.5% R1a whilst around 21.9% I2a, Serbs on the other hand seem to have around 30% I2a and 17% R1a iirc. The frequencies do vary from region to region though.

R1a in the Balkans certainly also arrived prior to the Slavic migrations, a Bronze Age Bulgarian sample for example turned out to be R-Z93. However, the overwhelming majority of Balkan R1a is of Slavic origin since they fall under clades that are common among Slavs and are clearly associated with them. Northern European R1a (Z284 and L664) arrived with Proto-Germanic speakers, so it's a IE marker which originally migrated out of the steppe and so pre-Viking.

I2a didn't invade Europe, a haplogroup can't invade. I2a itself is one of the "original" European haplogroups and originated in Europe, it was one of the WHG markers. The Eastern European R1a clades I was talking about partook in the ethnogenesis of the Slavs, they weren't assimilated by them. If anything I2a-CTS10228 was assimilated by Proto-Slavs, though I think that CTS10228 may have also partook in the Slavic ethnogenesis.

The Ottomans that invaded the Balkans definitely weren't mainly J1, they were probably mainly a mix of J2a and certain other groups like R1a. Balkan J1 doesn't seem to be of Ottoman Turkish origin, most of it arrived between the Bronze Age and Roman Empire. As far as I know a good amount of Turkish J1 isn't even of Arab, or even Semitic for that matter, origin. A large amount of it seems to be of native Anatolian origin.

ShpataEMadhe
06-09-19, 22:06
Y-DNA frequencies can fluctuate very easily due to natural or unnatural cases such as war, frequency isn't all that important in this case since. Gheg Albanians having roughly an equal amount of R1a and I2a means nothing, those are just frequencies. Bulgarians have around 17.5% R1a whilst around 21.9% I2a, Serbs on the other hand seem to have around 30% I2a and 17% R1a iirc. The frequencies do vary from region to region though.
R1a in the Balkans certainly also arrived prior to the Slavic migrations, a Bronze Age Bulgarian sample for example turned out to be R-Z93. However, the overwhelming majority of Balkan R1a is of Slavic origin since they fall under clades that are common among Slavs and are clearly associated with them. Northern European R1a (Z284 and L664) arrived with Proto-Germanic speakers, so it's a IE marker which originally migrated out of the steppe and so pre-Viking.
I2a didn't invade Europe, a haplogroup can't invade. I2a itself is one of the "original" European haplogroups and originated in Europe, it was one of the WHG markers. The Eastern European R1a clades I was talking about partook in the ethnogenesis of the Slavs, they weren't assimilated by them. If anything I2a-CTS10228 was assimilated by Proto-Slavs, though I think that CTS10228 may have also partook in the Slavic ethnogenesis.
The Ottomans that invaded the Balkans definitely weren't mainly J1, they were probably mainly a mix of J2a and certain other groups like R1a. Balkan J1 doesn't seem to be of Ottoman Turkish origin, most of it arrived between the Bronze Age and Roman Empire. As far as I know a good amount of Turkish J1 isn't even of Arab, or even Semitic for that matter, origin. A large amount of it seems to be of native Anatolian origin.
Well, like I said it would be easier to understand if we had charts of all the major r1a sub clades. The slavs definitely invaded Europe and evidence suggests they were mainly i2a. Have any i2a been found in pre slav Europe yet like r1a has been found?
The j1 discussion is off topic but I will say that from the mid 600s onwards arabs invaded a lot of foreign land and changed their history forever such as their language, this wouldn't have been possible without killing off the men or making them flee in order to have the power to change the culture of the land without constant revolts, don't forget in their "religion" they were allowed multiple women so another reason for them to kill the men and take more women for themselves. Also populations were a lot smaller in this period so easier to leave a genetic mark. They did more to their east (Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria etc) but also plenty to their north (Iraq, syria, Iran, Israel, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, East half of turkey, dagestan etc). In fact there is an area in dagestan that has like 90% J1 and these are super religious even today, almost extremist. If there is proof of j1 being in the middle east in abudance or even south Europe before 650 AD then I may accept that most j1 is not from Arab expansion. So if by j1 being native anatolian are you sure you do not mean as in ancestors of post Arab invasion?
As for j2a, yes ottoman may have been some of this too due j2a being widespread in middle East and greece/Turkey at the time from the byzantine empire. But ottoman definitely weren't ethnic greeks, they were clearly angry outcasts in the middle East and for me a lot of them were descendents of former Arab conquerors in the Middle East. Imo Turkey before 650 AD would have been quite similar to Greece with slightly more east influence. A few hundred years later the east of turkey would have had some more j1 after arab input. After the ottomans had taken control I would say j1 in addition to a few other foreign clades would have been as high as 15%. Then the ottoman were taking in balkan boys and raising them in Turkey, over the next few hundred years j1 would have reduced to 10% (war deaths) with j2b, i2a, ev13, r1b increasing filling in the gaps to have the turkey you see today. J1 arabs may have migrated to Turkey over the last 50 years or so too

Illyri
06-09-19, 22:28
You will find a chart with R1a's main subclades per country (for Europe) on this site:

http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r1a-statistic-02-2018-14-new/

The data used to prepare it is supposed to come from Eupedia and FTDNA R1a Project (as of March 2018/7500 samples).
But I do not know whether it is reliable or not.
I tried to post the chart earlier, but it seems that it needs to be authorized first.

By the way, this thread's subject is R1a-CTS1211 in Albania and the Balkans.

Kelmendasi
06-09-19, 22:31
Well, like I said it would be easier to understand if we had charts of all the major r1a sub clades. The slavs definitely invaded Europe and evidence suggests they were mainly i2a. Have any i2a been found in pre slav Europe yet like r1a has been found?
The j1 discussion is off topic but I will say that from the mid 600s onwards arabs invaded a lot of foreign land and changed their history forever such as their language, this wouldn't have been possible without killing off the men or making them flee in order to have the power to change the culture of the land without constant revolts, don't forget in their "religion" they were allowed multiple women so another reason for them to kill the men and take more women for themselves. Also populations were a lot smaller in this period so easier to leave a genetic mark. They did more to their east (Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria etc) but also plenty to their north (Iraq, syria, Iran, Israel, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, East half of turkey, dagestan etc). In fact there is an area in dagestan that has like 90% J1 and these are super religious even today, almost extremist. If there is proof of j1 being in the middle east in abudance or even south Europe before 650 AD then I may accept that most j1 is not from Arab expansion. So if by j1 being native anatolian are you sure you do not mean as in ancestors of post Arab invasion?
As for j2a, yes ottoman may have been some of this too due j2a being widespread in middle East and greece/Turkey at the time from the byzantine empire. But ottoman definitely weren't ethnic greeks, they were clearly angry outcasts in the middle East and for me a lot of them were descendents of former Arab conquerors in the Middle East. Imo Turkey before 650 AD would have been quite similar to Greece with slightly more east influence. A few hundred years later the east of turkey would have had some more j1 after arab input. After the ottomans had taken control I would say j1 in addition to a few other foreign clades would have been as high as 15%. Then the ottoman were taking in balkan boys and raising them in Turkey, over the next few hundred years j1 would have reduced to 10% (war deaths) with j2b, i2a, ev13, r1b increasing filling in the gaps to have the turkey you see today. J1 arabs may have migrated to Turkey over the last 50 years or so too
I see that you aren't all that familiar with these haplogroups and their histories, I would suggest that you read the Eupedia articles and get some sort of idea of these haplogroups.

There have been multiple I2a samples found in Europe that date to periods predating Slavic expansions, in fact most of the I2a samples even predate the expansion of Indo-Europeans as a whole. https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#6/51.000/2.000. The presence of I2 in Europe is older than that of R1a.

The J1 in Dagestan, or the Caucasus as a whole, has nothing to do with Arabs or any other Semitic speaking population. It is an offshoot of J-Z1842 and J-Z1828 which is a native CHG lineage, probably originating someplace around eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus during the Neolithic, Z1842 itself was found in a Kura-Araxes sample from Dagestan. J1 itself originates in the Caucasus region as suggested by the fact that the oldest sample was found in Paleolithic Georgia and J1 reaches highest diversity there. J-Z1828 was found in Bronze Age Anatolia, so J1 was definitely present in Anatolia prior to the Arabs. The J1 found in the Balkans, so far, isn't of Ottoman input. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j_gbbh1psWPgoR8fol-6phvBkDCUKtKeTOJAq4RH6_c/htmlview

Nobody said anything about the Ottomans being Greeks, not all J2a clades are Greek.

Kelmendasi
06-09-19, 22:34
You will find a chart with R1a's main subclades per country (for Europe) on this site:

http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r1a-statistic-02-2018-14-new/

The data used to prepare it is supposed to come from Eupedia and FTDNA R1a Project (as of March 2018/7500 samples).
But I do not know whether it is reliable or not.
I tried to post the chart earlier, but it seems that it needs to be authorized first.

By the way, this thread's subject is R1a-CTS1211 in Albania and the Balkans.
Sorry for derailing the thread a bit

ShpataEMadhe
06-09-19, 23:20
I see that you aren't all that familiar with these haplogroups and their histories, I would suggest that you read the Eupedia articles and get some sort of idea of these haplogroups.
There have been multiple I2a samples found in Europe that date to periods predating Slavic expansions, in fact most of the I2a samples even predate the expansion of Indo-Europeans as a whole. https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#6/51.000/2.000. The presence of I2 in Europe is older than that of R1a.
The J1 in Dagestan, or the Caucasus as a whole, has nothing to do with Arabs or any other Semitic speaking population. It is an offshoot of J-Z1842 and J-Z1828 which is a native CHG lineage, probably originating someplace around eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus during the Neolithic, Z1842 itself was found in a Kura-Araxes sample from Dagestan. J1 itself originates in the Caucasus region as suggested by the fact that the oldest sample was found in Paleolithic Georgia and J1 reaches highest diversity there. J-Z1828 was found in Bronze Age Anatolia, so J1 was definitely present in Anatolia prior to the Arabs. The J1 found in the Balkans, so far, isn't of Ottoman input. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j_gbbh1psWPgoR8fol-6phvBkDCUKtKeTOJAq4RH6_c/htmlview
Nobody said anything about the Ottomans being Greeks, not all J2a clades are Greek.
Is there somewhere we can continue this discussion properly on this board?

Kelmendasi
06-09-19, 23:47
Is there somewhere we can continue this discussion properly on this board?
Unfortunately I'm not aware of any threads which are really relevant to this discussion. Maybe PM or someone could open up a thread.

Dibran
07-09-19, 13:43
I can't see it. I don't understand how south slavs have so much more i2a than r1a yet albanians have roughly equal, some places have higher r1a than i2a whereas some places like kosova have more i2a than r1a which proves more a bit Slavic input into that particular region of albanians. Also doesn't Bulgaria have more r1a than South slavs yet much less i2a than them?
For me r1a had to have come either before the initial Slavic invasion OR after. Where did North r1a come from, which race exactly were they before the vikings took over? Or did they come after the vikings controlled that land?
i2a invaded Europe and the places where they killed off other races for i2a to become the majority are the true south Slavic nations. This doesn't mean they had to kill everyone, it just meant they needed to be the majority power just like i2a is in Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia etc. As for r1a travelling with the slavs maybe it did but long after the slavs settled in europe and assimilated r1a's around them (so the eastern European clade you're talking about), the ones they left alive. This would make r1a indo European but I don't know which race.
Another theory is that majority i2a came first to Europe during the initial Slavic invasions and then they brought r1a's along with them years later to fill up the newly won land. Maybe after this "peace" period albanians and other balkan countries were more willing to accept slavs (with the new r1a's) but I give this theory a 2/10 because the figures clearly don't add up.
As for Asian r1a it would be nice to know which countries have them most but I reckon the ottoman were mostly j1 anyway, they were continuing the Arab conquests their ancestors had started prior. And you do find a bit of j1 in balkans because of it and especially turkey where its a lot more (10%).
It would be great if someone could make charts of all the major r1a sub clades to make things a bit easier.

Ottoman Turks were not mainly J1. Where did you get that?

They have it sure. However, as far as I have seen(including the recent Macedonia study that samples over 100 Turks) they seem to belong to some variety of J2a. J1 in them is not the same as in Albanians.

Also, J1 has quiet a bit of diversity in Albanians despite how few the samples are. And some of them have huge TMRCA’s which have nothing to do recently with Ottomans.

As far as R1a/I2a, as Kelmendasi said, bottlenecks can cause the frequencies of haplogroup a to grow/decline over time. Now, of course not all R1a/I2a is from Slavs. But it all depends on the subclades.

Some r1a clades are more common than others region to region. Illyri’s clade is not really common at all. Despite its parent possibly being a Balto-Slav. It shows, like Dibra cluster, a subclade that is not common or widespread among Slavs. Think of it like a staircase with each step representing a forefather.

Some clades were more commonly participating in the Slavic migration whilst others could have sprinkled out earlier or later explaining their absence amongst a wider demographic.

The most common L1029 clade in southslavs for instance is YP417. Yet, the most common L1029 in northern Greeks is YP263. It doesn’t mean that they are separate cultures. It just means the early wave of L1029 men to Greece were predominantly YP263. Every clade represents a forefather. The more diverse clades are in a population is usually a good indication of where the line originated or moved in mass.

Of course Goths, Bastarnae, and even Antes mercenaries that protected the Danube limes for Rome all carried R1a either originally or via assimilation in their movements.

So naturally some isolated clades may exist. This doesn’t change the general origin of these lineages around Central/Eastern Europe. Also, majority of the clades are not like these isolated cases. Ergo, typical of the Slavic expansions.

Tutkun Arnaut
07-09-19, 13:56
Ottoman Turks were not mainly J1. Where did you get that?

They have it sure. However, as far as I have seen(including the recent Macedonia study that samples over 100 Turks) they seem to belong to some variety of J2a. J1 in them is not the same as in Albanians.

Also, J1 has quiet a bit of diversity in Albanians despite how few the samples are. And some of them have huge TMRCA’s which have nothing to do recently with Ottomans.

As far as R1a/I2a, as Kelmendasi said, bottlenecks can cause the frequencies of haplogroup a to grow/decline over time. Now, of course not all R1a/I2a is from Slavs. But it all depends on the subclades.

Some r1a clades are more common than others region to region. Illyri’s clade is not really common at all. Despite its parent possibly being a Balto-Slav. It shows, like Dibra cluster, a subclade that is not common or widespread among Slavs. Think of it like a staircase with each step representing a forefather.

Some clades were more commonly participating in the Slavic migration whilst others could have sprinkled out earlier or later explaining their absence amongst a wider demographic.

The most common L1029 clade in southslavs for instance is YP417. Yet, the most common L1029 in northern Greeks is YP263. It doesn’t mean that they are separate cultures. It just means the early wave of L1029 men to Greece were predominantly YP263. Every clade represents a forefather. The more diverse clades are in a population is usually a good indication of where the line originated or moved in mass.

Of course Goths, Bastarnae, and even Antes mercenaries that protected the Danube limes for Rome all carried R1a either originally or via assimilation in their movements.

So naturally some isolated clades may exist. This doesn’t change the general origin of these lineages around Central/Eastern Europe. Also, majority of the clades are not like these isolated cases. Ergo, typical of the Slavic expansions.

I think Turks were mostly J2a. South ALBANIA get lots of it.

Kelmendasi
07-09-19, 14:12
I think Turks were mostly J2a. South ALBANIA get lots of it.
The majority of J2a in Southern Albania, and Albania as a whole, doesn't seem to be of Ottoman Turkish input. Most seems to be of possible Latin origin with others probably being local Balkan lineages that were carried by Illyrians and other locals, a small amount is of Greek origin as well.

ShpataEMadhe
07-09-19, 14:51
I think Turks were mostly J2a. South ALBANIA get lots of it.
This is off topic again but ottoman (osman, uthman etc) were mostly arabs in terms of their father lines, j1 become a big group in middle East from prior arab expansion before ottoman era. Initially they were j1 + j2a + Asian r1a before they started deploying balkan men. J2a was common in Greece, Turkey and parts of Middle east so some would have been j2a too but j2a would have been in South albania from byzantine era anyway. There is no such thing as Turkish ethnicity, they were just greeks with some iranian/middle eastern input from the east and minimal turkic input. THEN they had 10% arab input.

For me most J1 in Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, serbia, Bosnia etc is from ottoman era until j1 is found in balkans before ottoman period, has it been found? Also, as for several different sub clades, how does mutation work and why does it happen?

Also arabs broke into Greece before ottoman period:

"In 904, the Arabs sacked Thessaloniki, their greatest achievement in Greece, while four years later they were defeated by Byzantine general Himerios in the Aegean.[2] Nikephoros Phokas noted in 961 the increase of Arabs in Greece."

Kelmendasi
07-09-19, 15:09
This is off topic again but ottoman (osman, uthman etc) were mostly arabs in terms of their father lines, j1 become a big group in middle East from prior arab expansion before ottoman era. Initially they were j1 + j2a + Asian r1a before they started deploying balkan men. J2a was common in Greece, Turkey and parts of Middle east so some would have been j2a too but j2a would have been in South albania from byzantine era anyway. There is no such thing as Turkish ethnicity, they were just greeks with some iranian/middle eastern input from the east and minimal turkic input. THEN they had 10% arab input.

For me most J1 in Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, serbia, Bosnia etc is from ottoman era until j1 is found in balkans before ottoman period, has it been found? Also, as for several different sub clades, how does mutation work and why does it happen?

Also arabs broke into Greece before ottoman period:

"In 904, the Arabs sacked Thessaloniki, their greatest achievement in Greece, while four years later they were defeated by Byzantine general Himerios in the Aegean.[2] Nikephoros Phokas noted in 961 the increase of Arabs in Greece."
It's very clear that you don't know what you're talking about. Things have been explained to you very clearly but you choose not to understand, you can carry on typing nonsense that makes no sense whatsoever. The J1 isn't from the Ottoman era, no evidence supports that it came then. Most of it came between the Bronze Age and Roman era, with some even possibly coming in during the Neolithic or earlier (as is the case for J-Y19093). Also the Ottoman dynasty wasn't Arab but Turkic in origin.
You seem to have an obsession with linking J1 with Arabs, but you fail to understand that only 1 large clade under P58 can be linked to them, that clade is FGC11. Even some lineages under FGC11 aren't Arab but pre-Arabic, the Balkans is lacking in Arabic clades.
We have already derailed this thread enough, open up another thread if you wish to carry on discussing.

Illyri
07-09-19, 15:23
They have it sure. However, as far as I have seen(including the recent Macedonia study that samples over 100 Turks) they seem to belong to some variety of J2a. J1 in them is not the same as in Albanians.

Can you please post a reference of/or a link to this Macedonia Study ?
I am interested to read about it since Macedonia is the only Balkan country for which I get a percentage higher than 2% in FTDNA's YDNA Ancestral Origins (12 markers, exact match), while with 25 and 37 markers, I have just Albania but at only 0,3 % (genetic distance -1 and -4). Though I do not fully understand how significant these percentages can be.

Ownstyler
07-09-19, 18:19
Can you please post a reference of/or a link to this Macedonia Study ?

It is here (https://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(19)30109-7/fulltext).

ShpataEMadhe
08-09-19, 15:11
Can someone explain to me why Bosnia has almost 3x i2a over r1a and why bulgaria has equal of both.

Illyri
08-09-19, 17:22
Can someone explain to me why Bosnia has almost 3x i2a over r1a and why bulgaria has equal of both.

I do not know for sure but the reasons can be multiple (genetic drift, bottlenecks, more or less succesful expansions after the 7th century). Besides, we also have to take into account that the original genetic make up of said tribes was not identical (which is also reflected by the frequencies and deep subclades present today). Besides, it is worth noting that Slavs and proto-Bulgarians were distinct tribes, although they arrived in Bulgaria almost at the same time. The initial homeland of the proto-Bulgarians was in the foothills of Pamir and Hindu Kush (Balhara for the Indians/Bactria for the Greeks), which could justify some Y DNA differences. Subsequently, they founded their European realms (i) Old Great Bulgaria between the Caucasus, the Caspian Sea and the Dnieper River, (ii) Volga-Kama Bulgaria and (iii) Danubian Bulgaria (Asparukh).

According to Primorac 2011, Bosnian males have 50 % of Hg I and 13,7 % of R1a (while in Croatia, Hg I represents 49 % of the fatherlines and Hg R1a 27 %). In summary, the authors write that:

(i) Hg I (mutation P37) is very ancient in Europe (25'000 ybp);
(ii) it expanded from a Western LGM refugium in the Balkans; and
(iii) it likely contributed to the post LGM peopling of Bosnia and Croatia.

I personally think that this reasoning is not convincing, in terms of continuity, if you look at the young age of the deep subclades present in those territories and at their limited diversity.

11388

Regarding R1a, the authors state that this Hg was possibly introduced in Croatia from the Northern part of Eastern Europe through the widespread of the Corded Ware cultures (3200/2300 BC) down through the more recent Slavic expansions. Finally, they conclude that R1a is the second most frequent haplogroup in the mainland and island populations, which implies that at least some of the founding ancestral groups of Croats originated from populations having possibly migrated from southern Russia 2000 ybp. As for the lower R1a frequency in Bosnia, the authors simply conclude that the Bosnian population shows a smaller portion of genes for the Ukranian refugium.

From what I see in Karachanak's study of 2013, Bulgarians have 20,2 % of I-M423, 18,1 % of E-V13 and 17,5 % of R1a (described in the supporting information as R-M17, 43 % of which being R-M458). The authors write about Bulgarian R1a that this haplogroup could be a signal of various events ranging from early post LGM expansions to more recent Slavic demography.

As I wrote earlier, it all depends from the specific subclades and their age.

Illyri
19-10-19, 22:15
I just noticed on www.yfull.com/tree (v. 7.08) that the subclades under R-CTS8816/Y2902 have been reorganized.
As a result, R-YP3994 does not appear as basal to Y2902 anymore but in the end of the list. Has anyone an idea about the reasons for this reorganization ? What does it mean ?

These changes were all reversed in the new update (v 7.09 21.10.19).

Illyri
19-10-19, 22:58
I also noticed that the YDNA path to R-YP3994 has been updated on SNP tracker.

11479

Of course, it is not really reliable since this simulated route is only calculated based on the geographical origins reported by the modern carriers (and not on ancient DNA) but it is funny to see that, after inclusion of my sample, the founder of R-YP3994 in the Iron Age is located a bit more in the South. He is now supposed to have dwelled by the Danube in central Hungary, at the gateway to the Balkans.

Nik
20-10-19, 01:09
I also noticed that the YDNA path to R-YP3994 has been updated on SNP tracker.

11479

Of course, it is not really reliable since this simulated route is only calculated based on the geographical origins reported by the modern carriers (and not on ancient DNA) but it is funny to see that, after inclusion of my sample, the founder of R-YP3994 in the Iron Age is located a bit more in the South. He is now supposed to have dwelled by the Danube in central Hungary, at the gateway to the Balkans.
The interpretations are still mostly retarded and to be taken with a grain of salt or to completely ignore them for a couple more years like I do until we get ancient DNA.

Just wait until they test some ancient Balkan Dna and call it's North-Eastern shift Slavic.

Illyri
02-11-19, 17:48
However, nothing is certain until you do a BigY test. This will help to determine if you form a cluster with the Italian, or Russian cluster, or maybe even form your own specific Albanian haplotype.

I just received my BigY results. I have 18 private variants. And I cluster with the Sicilian (he is my only BigY match and we share one variant). But it does not say anything about the TMRCA. How can I calculate it ?

Illyri
02-11-19, 17:50
It seems the Italian and whoever hid their results from YFull share 5 SNPs. From that, I would estimate that their lines split around 1300-1700 ybp, which points to a Late Anitiquity/Early Middle Ages expansion. This is only based on 1-2 samples, so let's see how you compare once your BigY is ready.

How to do this comparison ?

Leka
02-11-19, 19:56
Should be around 1500ybp. Not sure thought what’s the case with the hidden sample, you could potentially be closer to him.

Anyway, the Sicilian looks like is with origin from the Balkans. Might be Arberesh.

Illyri
02-11-19, 20:49
Should be around 1500ybp. Not sure thought what’s the case with the hidden sample, you could potentially be closer to him.

Anyway, the Sicilian looks like is with origin from the Balkans. Might be Arberesh.

Would it help to upload the data to Yfull ?
The Sicilian could be arberesh. I found someone with the same family name leading some arberesh fighters during the Italian revolution.

Leka
02-11-19, 20:52
Would it help to upload the data to Yfull ?
The Sicilian could be arberesh. I found someone with the same family name leading some arberesh fighters during the Italian revolution.
Yes, upload it there as well. Lately though they have been slacking around, but I think it's still worth it to purchase their analysis.

Illyri
09-11-19, 00:51
I saw in the recent paper « Ancient Rome : A genetic crossroad... » that Haplogroup R1a (+J1 & E1b) was present in Rome and/or its surroundings during the Imperial period 27-300 BCE (see Supp. Materials, p. 12) and Figure S5.
It is not found anymore in Late Antiquity and during the Medieval period.
11567

Illyri
09-11-19, 01:02
It says there was a substantial Ancestry shift towards Eastern Mediterranean / Near East.

In the S2 table, I could find :

> R-F1345 (under Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2122).
> R-M207 (but it seems it is R2a);

But neither the article nor the Supp. Materials say anything specific about R1a and how it arrived in Rome.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Illyri
02-04-20, 22:10
On Yfull R-Y2902's TMRCA was recently reduced from 2400 to 2000.
Can someone explain what has changed in their age estimation method ?
There must be a reason but I do not understand it since the figures given by some of its subclades are older than 2000.

Dibran
06-04-20, 05:08
On Yfull R-Y2902's TMRCA was recently reduced from 2400 to 2000.
Can someone explain what has changed in their age estimation method ?
There must be a reason but I do not understand it since the figures given by some of its subclades are older than 2000.

If I'm not mistaken I think its determined by average of the total estimate. Perhaps some new added samples lowered the average.

This happens constantly with my line. Basal L1029 has jumped between 1950-2150ybp.

Right now it's at 2100. May drop back to 2000 with new samples. It all depends. Michal, a project admin of R1a says the accurate TMRCAs are 15% older than yfull estimates. So it could be 2000-2300 years.

td120
06-04-20, 06:28
An upgrade from Hg19 to Hg38 would also change the TMRC slightly.

Illyri
12-04-20, 14:51
If I'm not mistaken I think its determined by average of the total estimate. Perhaps some new added samples lowered the average.

This happens constantly with my line. Basal L1029 has jumped between 1950-2150ybp.

Right now it's at 2100. May drop back to 2000 with new samples. It all depends. Michal, a project admin of R1a says the accurate TMRCAs are 15% older than yfull estimates. So it could be 2000-2300 years.

Thanks Dibran. I also thought that this had to do with new samples and the average age. I have seen your L-1029's age changing a bit over the last months and I would also expect the estimation to change +/- 50/100 years but not 400 years at once. In the case of R-Y2902 the average figure did not change significantly. I had a look on the age calculation on Yfull and it seems the change did not occur because of new samples since the average number of every sample gives a figure higher than 2000. So it does not seem to be a purely arithmetical issue.

I remember that previously Yfull calculated R-Y2902's TMRCA based upon the age of its daughter R-Y3226, which is around 2500 years. Even today, some subclades of R-Y2902 have higher TMRCA's based upon the samples (for example R-Y35192 > 2277 years or R-YP1144 > 2389 years) than their forming age (2000 ybp).

This is what I fail to understand and the reason why I asked if they changed something in their method.

Illyri
05-08-20, 23:48
With the last update a few days ago, R-Y2902's TMRCA jumped 500 years in the past (without addition of a significant number of new samples, just based upon R-Y3226's TMRCA). It is now 2500 ybp. Does anyone understand why ?

Trojet
06-08-20, 15:39
With the last update a few days ago, R-Y2902's TMRCA jumped 500 years in the past (without addition of a significant number of new samples, just based upon R-3226's TMRCA). It is now 2500 ybp. Does anyone understand why ?

Yup, it looks like they made the change to 2500 ybp based on subclade R-Y3226. When clicking "info" next to R-Y2902 TMRCA, towards the bottom it says: "NOTE: Age estimation has been taken from downstream subclade R-Y3226, its age estimation is more (2500 > 1930)"

So basically they're saying its TMRCA cannot be less than the estimated TMRCA of one of its descending lineages. I don't know which one in reality would be more accurate, but I tend to think the average of all descending lineages, especially if there is 10+

Illyri
06-08-20, 22:04
Yup, it looks like they made the change to 2500 ybp based on subclade R-Y3226. When clicking "info" next to R-Y2902 TMRCA, towards the bottom it says: "NOTE: Age estimation has been taken from downstream subclade R-Y3226, its age estimation is more (2500 > 1930)"
So basically they're saying its TMRCA cannot be less than the estimated TMRCA of one of its descending lineages. I don't know which one in reality would be more accurate, but I tend to think the average of all descending lineages, especially if there is 10+

Thanks Trojet.

Yfull changed the TMRCA of R-Y2902 from 2400 ybp to 2000 ybp 4 months ago. And now they reversed it with no clear reason. In FTDNA's R1a-Y1392 Project they write that the branch's age is around 2500 years (and they have more subclades and samples than yfull, but perhaps they also rely on yfull's calculations).

By the way, I am aware that these TMRCA's calculations are only approximative estimates but could it be that the first lineage to split from the parent branch dit it 2500 ybp and the last 1930 ybp ? The MRCA could not have all the subsequent parallel mutations, which must have occurred in different carriers and not necessarily at the same time. Perhaps I do not get this right, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the 12 first ancestors (founders) of R-Y2902 subclades lived between 2500 ybp and 1930 ybp ?

Trojet
09-08-20, 00:23
Thanks Trojet.
Yfull changed the TMRCA of R-Y2902 from 2400 ybp to 2000 ybp 4 months ago. And now they reversed it with no clear reason. In FTDNA's R1a-Y1392 Project they write that the branch's age is around 2500 years (and they have more subclades and samples than yfull, but perhaps they also rely on yfull's calculations).
By the way, I am aware that these TMRCA's calculations are only approximative estimates but could it be that the first lineage to split from the parent branch dit it 2500 ybp and the last 1930 ybp ? The MRCA could not have all the subsequent parallel mutations, which must have occurred in different carriers and not necessarily at the same time. Perhaps I do not get this right, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the 12 first ancestors (founders) of R-Y2902 subclades lived between 2500 ybp and 1930 ybp ?

Yes, based on current research, they are parallel lines, literally brothers that descend from an ancestor who lived between 1930 and 2500 ybp, defined by R-Y2902. At YFull, there is currently 15 of them, as each R-Y2902* forms an independent lineage from the others. Since current NGS technology on average detects a SNP for every three generations, they should've occurred within 100 years. And so it's possible that many of them are in fact descended from one brother who subsequently had multiple sons, and the current technology cannot detect a SNP that joins them. Hopefully future NGS technology will allow the detection of a SNP for every generations. Anyway, this points to a huge demographic expansion of R-Y2902 and its immediate descendants.

Olyve
17-09-20, 21:54
Hello, I appreciate your discussions. I don't have anything to contribute toward your quest but I'm on a similar quest.

My paternal Grandfather immigrated from Greece to US in early 1900s. The family story is that his ancestor(s) came from the mountains of Epirus on today's border of Albania and Greece and his surname derives from that region. We have reliable information that his ancestor left Epirus at least 400 years ago.

The Genographic 2.0 test and subsequent upload to Familytree identifies our Y haplogroup as R-YP321. The last SNP tested is positive for CTS1211; the immediate SNPs downstream (not tested) are CTS8816, Y2902 at RY1392 and YP3994. I think we could be distantly (but sort of closely) related.

One other interesting note is, the Genographic 2.0 study indicated R-M417 from Central Asia is the ancestral lineage for one of the Ashkenazi Levite founding lines. Probably you are aware of this. I don't know to what degree this connects to our more recent ancestry.

Your lineage history interests me. Do you know how many generations of your father's family lived in Albania and how they sustained themselves? Thank you for sharing.

Illyri
21-09-20, 21:00
The Genographic 2.0 test and subsequent upload to Familytree identifies our Y haplogroup as R-YP321. The last SNP tested is positive for CTS1211; the immediate SNPs downstream (not tested) are CTS8816, Y2902 at RY1392 and YP3994. I think we could be distantly (but sort of closely) related.


Based on current estimates our lineages are 4200 years distant from each other if you are confirmed YP321. I guess this is quite distant in time (although the geographical distance is much smaller). There are several distinct lineages under CTS1211 present in Albania. I assume it is the same for northern Greece. Have you thought about testing other SNPs to find your terminal subclade ?

Illyri
21-09-20, 21:14
My paternal Grandfather immigrated from Greece to US in early 1900s. The family story is that his ancestor(s) came from the mountains of Epirus on today's border of Albania and Greece and his surname derives from that region. We have reliable information that his ancestor left Epirus at least 400 years ago.

Your lineage history interests me. Do you know how many generations of your father's family lived in Albania and how they sustained themselves? Thank you for sharing.

My fatherline has been present in Gjirokastër during at least two centuries (I need to do some research in the ottoman defters to go further back in time). It is now present in various city districts and we have no records about coming from elsewhere. The TMRCA with the other Albanian (from Gumenica) and the Sicilian (from Palermo) on yfull is around 1350 ybp. This estimate might give a rough idea about the time when the founder of the lineage arrived in the Balkans.

I do not know what my ancestors did for a living in the remote past. Before the communist regime, they used to transport goods on trade routes between Gjirokastër and other cities.

On your side, do you know how your ancestor sustained himself ? Do you know the name of the village he came came from ?

Olyve
29-10-20, 00:27
Based on current estimates our lineages are 4200 years distant from each other if you are confirmed YP321. I guess this is quite distant in time (although the geographical distance is much smaller). There are several distinct lineages under CTS1211 present in Albania. I assume it is the same for northern Greece. Have you thought about testing other SNPs to find your terminal subclade ?

Illyri, thank you for your comments. I'm completely new to this process; I have much to learn. I do hope to test more SNPs with time, to get more information and when I do, I'll share the information. Our family story is our fatherline came from the rugged mountains of Souli. In the book, Epirus, 4000 Years of Greek History and Civilization, the authors state this region was transected by shepherds with their herds long before there were settlements; shepherds began to settle the region in the mid sixteenth century. It states these settlers came from southern Albania and the plains of Thesprotia and the Souliots were "a mixture of Greeks and Hellenized Albanians". I found reading about the Vlachs to be really interesting and wondered if our family may have been among the Vlachs. Interesting to me is, our family name was adopted from Souli and is shared by many other families. If anyone has thoughts on possible reasons for (what seems to me) this late adoption of our surname, I am interested. Is this common or did more families retain surnames earlier in their history? Is it possible we are from a formerly (enslaved) Slavic group and didn't keep a surname?

Illyri
20-12-20, 17:17
Illyri, thank you for your comments. I'm completely new to this process; I have much to learn. I do hope to test more SNPs with time, to get more information and when I do, I'll share the information. Our family story is our fatherline came from the rugged mountains of Souli. In the book, Epirus, 4000 Years of Greek History and Civilization, the authors state this region was transected by shepherds with their herds long before there were settlements; shepherds began to settle the region in the mid sixteenth century. It states these settlers came from southern Albania and the plains of Thesprotia and the Souliots were "a mixture of Greeks and Hellenized Albanians". I found reading about the Vlachs to be really interesting and wondered if our family may have been among the Vlachs. Interesting to me is, our family name was adopted from Souli and is shared by many other families. If anyone has thoughts on possible reasons for (what seems to me) this late adoption of our surname, I am interested. Is this common or did more families retain surnames earlier in their history? Is it possible we are from a formerly (enslaved) Slavic group and didn't keep a surname?

Hi Olyve, from what I know the region called Epirus - including the mountains of Suli - was settled long before the 16th century.

Among Albanians (and I do not know if the same logic would apply in your case), the lastname would correspond to your father's name or clan name. When someone's lastname refers to a region/town/village, it means that he migrated somewhere else and was called by his place of origin by his new neighbours (to remember the fact that he does not stem from the place where he lives). If we use this logic in your case, it would mean that your ancestor left Suli to settle somewhere else in Greece - which I believe was the case of many Suliots - before migrating to America.

I am not sure what you mean by "(enslaved) Slavic group". I never read about enslaved Slavs in Southern Albania / Northern Greece.

Gannicus
31-12-20, 19:52
Guys, just one question:

Romanians and moldovans have so much I2a and R1a, wich are of the same clades as those found among albanians:

Why couldn't them be dacian?

It doesn't make any sense that romanians are mostly slavic, and now speak romanian.

We know very well how hard it is to assimilate slavs and how easly they assimilated other cultures, so it doesn't make much sense that I2a-M423 and R1a (forgot the clade) are slavic.

It makes sense tho, that:

1) Ostrogoths have it as dacians lived in parts of hungary too, like in Avar Szolad, and assimilated them there, and from there spread them everywere they went.

2) Jugoslavs have them as they could have assimilated many carpathian people/dacians, and then brought them to the balkans.

Now, albanians could have them from slavs or ostrogoths, but in both cases, if what I suggest is true, it would be true.

And what if dacians directly brought it to albania? What would you think about albanians being of dacian origin and R1a + I2a originally?

What are the main challenges to my suggestion?

Thanks in advance.

Illyri
01-01-21, 10:54
[...]

Gannicus, Dacians might have had their share of I2a and R1a (which remains to be proved by ancient samples) but I believe that there are a few objections to your hypothesis.

Romanians and moldovans have so much I2a and R1a, wich are of the same clades as those found among albanians:
Why couldn't them be dacian?

First of all, it would be necessary to specify the similar clades between Romanians/Moldavians and Albanians ? This would certainly help the discussion because comparing at I2a/R1a level is not very meaningful.
I am not an expert on Romanian/Moldavian genetics and a scientific paper would certainly help. What I can say on the similiarity argument (for R1a) concerns my own clade and it is not present in Romania/Moldova. It is pretty much the same for its parent branch R-Y2902 which has only scarce presence in Romania/Moldova (0,52% of the samples in FTDNA and only a couple of predicted lineages in the R-Y1392 project of FTDNA ). In view of this I would say that the similarity is limited and that if the Romanian/Moldavian territories where the place of origin of R-Y2902, I would expect to find more presence and diversity there.

It doesn't make any sense that romanians are mostly slavic, and now speak romanian.
We know very well how hard it is to assimilate slavs and how easly they assimilated other cultures, so it doesn't make much sense that I2a-M423 and R1a (forgot the clade) are slavic.

There are known cases where language and genetics do not correspond. I am not an expert in linguistics but there is also slavic influence in the romanian language. For instance, their word for yes is "da". In short, I do not think that this is a solid argument.

It makes sense tho, that:
1) Ostrogoths have it as dacians lived in parts of hungary too, like in Avar Szolad, and assimilated them there, and from there spread them everywere they went.

First, an Avar sample is not Dacian (at least to my knowledge). Besides, it is debated whether that "avar" sample (SZ1-R1a Z93) is really from the migration period or a bronze age sample (in short, it was not labelled as such in the scientific paper, it seemed to be an ancestor to other (older) samples and it did not match with the two other avar samples found there). But more important, there was no massive Ostrogothic come back to Southern Balkans (neither to Romania / Bulgaria) after settling in Pannonia. Whatever R1a/I2a lineages the Goths might have brought to the Balkans, I think that they would have assimilated them before settling to Pannonia, i.e. during their migration from Scandinavia to the Black Sea and then to the Dabube. That being said, it is true that the Goths formed a polyethnic confederation. In his History of the Goths, Herwig Wolfram mentions that their community comprised Finns, Slavs, Antes, Heruli, Alans, Huns, Taifali, Sarmatians, Aesti, Bastarnae and Romanized Daco-Carpian groups.

2) Jugoslavs have them as they could have assimilated many carpathian people/dacians, and then brought them to the balkans. Now, albanians could have them from slavs or ostrogoths, but in both cases, if what I suggest is true, it would be true.

If the South Slavs assimilated those lineages during their migration to the Balkans they would logically be absent in common Slavs. Then arises the question of knowing who brought them to the North (Poland, Baltic, etc.) and to the East (Russia) ? Finally, what would be the original South Slavic lineages then ? As you might know, R1a and I2a are major haplogroups among Croats, Bosnians and Serbs (at least in terms of frequency).

And what if dacians directly brought it to albania? What would you think about albanians being of dacian origin and R1a + I2a originally?

I have no knowledge of a recorded Dacian migration to Illyricum/Albania. Be it as it may, ancient samples and current figures (frequencies, TMRCAs and diversity) do not support your hypothesis. Today, R1a and I2a are a minority among modern Albanian lineages. If they were to be the "original" Albanians, then why did they shrink and which people brought the dominant haplogroups between Albanians (E-V13, R-Z2103 and J-L283), and the Albanian language in the Northern mountains of Albania which are barely accessible ?

TaktikatEMalet
01-01-21, 15:36
Guys, just one question:
Romanians and moldovans have so much I2a and R1a, wich are of the same clades as those found among albanians:
Why couldn't them be dacian?
It doesn't make any sense that romanians are mostly slavic, and now speak romanian.
We know very well how hard it is to assimilate slavs and how easly they assimilated other cultures, so it doesn't make much sense that I2a-M423 and R1a (forgot the clade) are slavic.
It makes sense tho, that:
1) Ostrogoths have it as dacians lived in parts of hungary too, like in Avar Szolad, and assimilated them there, and from there spread them everywere they went.
2) Jugoslavs have them as they could have assimilated many carpathian people/dacians, and then brought them to the balkans.
Now, albanians could have them from slavs or ostrogoths, but in both cases, if what I suggest is true, it would be true.
And what if dacians directly brought it to albania? What would you think about albanians being of dacian origin and R1a + I2a originally?
What are the main challenges to my suggestion?
Thanks in advance.
Very wrong, please study genetics before saying this stuff. I was saying silly things in beginning too

Here is a database of south Slavic y dna https://dnk.poreklo.rs/DNK-projekat/
Here are some databases of Albanian y dna
https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/
http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/

I2a p37 is the most frequent south Slavic y dna, most south slavic countries have 30%+, in Albanians it is ~8%, more in South than North. Maybe you want to speak about i2a m223, about 2.5% of Albanians carry this and it has nothing to do with south Slavs it is more frequent in Albanians than south Slavs I think they have less than 1%. I don't know which tribe brought it to Albanians but was in Europe for thousands of years

Now as for R1a the topic we are discussing, Albanians have 2% z280 (more in south than north again) which is generally believed to have moved with south Slavic migrations. Albanians have more R1a than just 2% but looks like most of this was pre south slavic, could be thracian, dacian etc who knows. It is possible that maybe 3% instead of 2% is south Slavic if you can find definite connection.

Not all R1a in south Slavs is from proto south Slavs some of it is actually earlier central/south European. West Slavic people carry much more Slavic r1a than south Slavs

The reason why Romanians have a lot of south Slavic y dna is because a lot more managed to move there than they did in Albania, you have to remember they pushed out a lot of illyrians and thracians further south when they moved into balkans, not for Slavic migration Albanians maybe would be found further north all the way up to Croatia. If anyone has a database of Romanian y dna please share

As for Ostrogoths they have little to do with i2a p37 and most r1a. Ostrogoths were mostly i1 and in Albanians you will find ~7% i1 people - how much of this is from Ostrogoth migration is unclear could be at least half

Illyri
01-01-21, 16:42
Now as for R1a the topic we are discussing, Albanians have 2% z280 (more in south than north again) which is generally believed to have moved with south Slavic migrations. Albanians have more R1a than just 2% but looks like most of this was pre south slavic, could be thracian, dacian etc who knows. It is possible that maybe 3% instead of 2% is south Slavic if you can find definite connection.
Not all R1a in south Slavs is from proto south Slavs some of it is actually earlier central/south European.


According to Rrënjet, Albanians have 7,4% R1a lineages, with little difference between North (6,6%) and South (8,6 %). 3 % are under M458, 2 % under CTS1211 and 2,2 % unspecified M417 (most likely to be shared among the two precedents). I do not think that you can draw up a real distinction between Z280 and M458, since both were found in central Europe long before the Slavic ethnogenesis. Z280 was found in an ancient sample (1086 BC) in Germany (Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld). There is no real difference with the M458 (MX265) ancient sample found in Switzerland.

Besides, if you read the last study about the Viking world, you will see that there are several Viking samples under CTS1211, one of them (VK274 - 1000 ybp) falling under Y2902 (more precisely PH3519). So based upon ancient DNA, the Normans could also be a possible origin for the South Albanian CTS1211.

Finally, if you look at the TMRCA of the Albanian subclades under L1029, you will not find any figures predating the 7th century. So it is not really possible to distinguish between Slavic and pre-Slavic.

Gannicus
01-01-21, 16:42
[...]

Gannicus, Dacians might have had their share of I2a and R1a (which remains to be proved by ancient samples) but I believe that there are a few objections to your hypothesis.

Romanians and moldovans have so much I2a and R1a, wich are of the same clades as those found among albanians:
Why couldn't them be dacian?

First of all, it would be necessary to specify the similar clades between Romanians/Moldavians and Albanians ? This would certainly help the discussion because comparing at I2a/R1a level is not very meaningful.
I am not an expert on Romanian/Moldavian genetics and a scientific paper would certainly help. What I can say on the similiarity argument (for R1a) concerns my own clade and it is not present in Romania/Moldova. It is pretty much the same for its parent branch R-Y2902 which has only scarce presence in Romania/Moldova (0,52% of the samples in FTDNA and only a couple of predicted lineages in the R-Y1392 project of FTDNA ). In view of this I would say that the similarity is limited and that if the Romanian/Moldavian territories where the place of origin of R-Y2902, I would expect to find more presence and diversity there.

It doesn't make any sense that romanians are mostly slavic, and now speak romanian.
We know very well how hard it is to assimilate slavs and how easly they assimilated other cultures, so it doesn't make much sense that I2a-M423 and R1a (forgot the clade) are slavic.

There are known cases where language and genetics do not correspond. I am not an expert in linguistics but there is also slavic influence in the romanian language. For instance, their word for yes is "da". In short, I do not think that this is a solid argument.

It makes sense tho, that:
1) Ostrogoths have it as dacians lived in parts of hungary too, like in Avar Szolad, and assimilated them there, and from there spread them everywere they went.

First, an Avar sample is not Dacian (at least to my knowledge). Besides, it is debated whether that "avar" sample (SZ1-R1a Z93) is really from the migration period or a bronze age sample (in short, it was not labelled as such in the scientific paper, it seemed to be an ancestor to other (older) samples and it did not match with the two other avar samples found there). But more important, there was not massive Ostrogothic come back to Southern Balkans (neither to Romania / Bulgaria) after settling in Pannonia. Whatever R1a/I2a lineages the Goths might have brought to the Balkans, I think that they would have assimilated them before settling to Pannonia, i.e. during their migration from Scandinavia to the Black Sea and then to the Dabube. That being said, it is true that the Goths formed a polyethnic confederation. In his History of the Goths, Herwig Wolfram mentions that their community comprised Finns, Slavs, Antes, Heruli, Alans, Huns, Taifali, Sarmatians, Aesti, Bastarnae and Romanized Daco-Carpian groups.

2) Jugoslavs have them as they could have assimilated many carpathian people/dacians, and then brought them to the balkans. Now, albanians could have them from slavs or ostrogoths, but in both cases, if what I suggest is true, it would be true.

If the South Slavs assimilated those lineages during their migration to the Balkans they would logically be absent in common Slavs. Then arises the question of knowing who brought them to the North (Poland, Baltic, etc.) and to the East (Russia) ? Finally, what would be the original South Slavic lineages then ? As you might know, R1a and I2a are major haplogroups among Croats, Bosnians and Serbs (at least in terms of frequency).

And what if dacians directly brought it to albania? What would you think about albanians being of dacian origin and R1a + I2a originally?

I have no knowledge of a recorded Dacian migration to Illyricum/Albania. Be it as it may, ancient samples and current figures (frequencies, TMRCAs and diversity) do not support your hypothesis. Today, R1a and I2a are a minority among modern Albanian lineages. If they were to be the "original" Albanians, then why did they shrink and which people brought the dominant haplogroups between Albanians (E-V13, R-Z2103 and J-L283), and the Albanian language in the Northern mountains of Albania which are barely accessible ?

Amazingly helpful post, flm vëlla :)

You are right, I just wanted to stress this possibility as much as I could, to see if it stood any chance, but as we can see it's very unlikely, wich is a good thing, as it makes the circle of the possible suspect ancestors of the albanians get narrower and therefore make us get closer to the truth.

I know it has been rejected since long time, but it is good to verify if anything changed from the last time, maybe thanks to some new study.

It really makes me sad to see the lack of interest from western scholars towards this region and the people that live here, wich sadly leaves too much space to local scholars (wich is no bad per se) but also pseudo-scholars, activists masked as experts and what not.

Well, sorry for having gone off topic, let's get back to R1a.

So in conclusion the best hypothesis is germanized slav? Like it's the case for Dibran's R1a?

Gannicus
01-01-21, 16:55
Very wrong, please study genetics before saying this stuff. I was saying silly things in beginning too

Here is a database of south Slavic y dna https://dnk.poreklo.rs/DNK-projekat/
Here are some databases of Albanian y dna
https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/
http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/

I2a p37 is the most frequent south Slavic y dna, most south slavic countries have 30%+, in Albanians it is ~8%, more in South than North. Maybe you want to speak about i2a m223, about 2.5% of Albanians carry this and it has nothing to do with south Slavs it is more frequent in Albanians than south Slavs I think they have less than 1%. I don't know which tribe brought it to Albanians but was in Europe for thousands of years

Now as for R1a the topic we are discussing, Albanians have 2% z280 (more in south than north again) which is generally believed to have moved with south Slavic migrations. Albanians have more R1a than just 2% but looks like most of this was pre south slavic, could be thracian, dacian etc who knows. It is possible that maybe 3% instead of 2% is south Slavic if you can find definite connection.

Not all R1a in south Slavs is from proto south Slavs some of it is actually earlier central/south European. West Slavic people carry much more Slavic r1a than south Slavs

The reason why Romanians have a lot of south Slavic y dna is because a lot more managed to move there than they did in Albania, you have to remember they pushed out a lot of illyrians and thracians further south when they moved into balkans, not for Slavic migration Albanians maybe would be found further north all the way up to Croatia. If anyone has a database of Romanian y dna please share

As for Ostrogoths they have little to do with i2a p37 and most r1a. Ostrogoths were mostly i1 and in Albanians you will find ~7% i1 people - how much of this is from Ostrogoth migration is unclear could be at least half


Thank you very much for the reply, really appreciate it.

Sorry, I didn't mean to spread false information, I just wanted to stress out as much as possible this possibility.

My problem is I can't really find much information online, the internet is such an amazing platform but it is very hard for me to find quality info.

So, for this, know that your links are very appreciated :)

As for my dacian suggestion, and the R1a and I2a that could potentially be dacian: (talking about that 3-4% that is not slavic)

I believe the main indicator it is not originally albanian is that it's found more among tosks than gegs, the latter being considered overall more well preserved genetically, although it could be due to genetic drifts, as we are talking about 1-2% differences, something very negligible.

Could also be germanic populations that inhabited parts of the balkans in the pre-roman period, who knows.


Little question: what are the most updated studies on illyrian, thracian, dacian and ancient greek genetics?
I can't find anything, dunno if it's me or the lack of material on the internet.

Also what about generic studies about ancient populations as a hole.

It would be amazing if we could adress the "tuscan" autosomal links with albanians, also see with what ancient populations albanians wouold score closer today. (Although we already have a vague idea, just i'd like to research this better)

Illyri
01-01-21, 17:07
Well, sorry for having gone off topic, let's get back to R1a.
So in conclusion the best hypothesis is germanized slav? Like it's the case for Dibran's R1a?

Thank you too. I would say it is one of the possibilities (Slav, Goth or Norman see post # 61 above) but modern distribution and the limited number of samples positive for YP3994 do not allow to hold it as the best. Perhaps new studies (if I am not wrong a massive study for central Europe is supposed to be released soon) and/or new bearers who will go through deep testing will allow to be more precise in the futur. In this respect, a third Albanian (another guy from Çamëria) was tested positive for YP3994 (through snp testing). Hopefully, he will go through deep testing this year, which could be interesting as he shows certain differences in the STR results.

Gannicus
01-01-21, 17:40
Thank you too. I would say it is one on the possibilities (Slav, Goth or Norman see post # 61 above).

Very wrong, please study genetics before saying this stuff. I was saying silly things in beginning too
Here is a database of south Slavic y dna https://dnk.poreklo.rs/DNK-projekat/
Here are some databases of Albanian y dna
https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/
http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/
I2a p37 is the most frequent south Slavic y dna, most south slavic countries have 30%+, in Albanians it is ~8%, more in South than North. Maybe you want to speak about i2a m223, about 2.5% of Albanians carry this and it has nothing to do with south Slavs it is more frequent in Albanians than south Slavs I think they have less than 1%. I don't know which tribe brought it to Albanians but was in Europe for thousands of years
Now as for R1a the topic we are discussing, Albanians have 2% z280 (more in south than north again) which is generally believed to have moved with south Slavic migrations. Albanians have more R1a than just 2% but looks like most of this was pre south slavic, could be thracian, dacian etc who knows. It is possible that maybe 3% instead of 2% is south Slavic if you can find definite connection.
Not all R1a in south Slavs is from proto south Slavs some of it is actually earlier central/south European. West Slavic people carry much more Slavic r1a than south Slavs
The reason why Romanians have a lot of south Slavic y dna is because a lot more managed to move there than they did in Albania, you have to remember they pushed out a lot of illyrians and thracians further south when they moved into balkans, not for Slavic migration Albanians maybe would be found further north all the way up to Croatia. If anyone has a database of Romanian y dna please share
As for Ostrogoths they have little to do with i2a p37 and most r1a. Ostrogoths were mostly i1 and in Albanians you will find ~7% i1 people - how much of this is from Ostrogoth migration is unclear could be at least half
Wow bro, I paid a visit to gjenetika.com
What striked me was:
How clean kosovars were on the 3 main haplogroups.
How low macedonian albanians were on E1b-V13
How low we tosk are on J2b (wich really struck me)
How little external haplos montenegro albanians had (only I1 and J2a if i'm not mistaken)
How high on R1a and I2a greek albanians were (although you'd expect it)
What I don't understand is, why on average albanians got a good 20-25% of little percentages of many different external haplos (J1c, J2a, G2a, T1a, etc) instead of having a good 90% of E-V13, J2b and R1b.
Ofcourse albanians weren't so static genetically, as we all would think + some of these (like T1a) are surely here from ancient times, but it makes me say hatsoff to our brothers in vuksanlekaj, plavë and, guci for how well preserved they are, a real time capsule for how albanians likely were.

Gannicus
01-01-21, 17:44
Btw, I don't wanna sound like someone scared of external haplos like that Fustan guy was.
I value people on the basis of their values not haplogroups xD, just i'm curious to figure this stuff out.

TaktikatEMalet
01-01-21, 19:47
Wow bro, I paid a visit to gjenetika.com
What striked me was:
How clean kosovars were on the 3 main haplogroups.
How low macedonian albanians were on E1b-V13
How low we tosk are on J2b (wich really struck me)
How little external haplos montenegro albanians had (only I1 and J2a if i'm not mistaken)
How high on R1a and I2a greek albanians were (although you'd expect it)
What I don't understand is, why on average albanians got a good 20-25% of little percentages of many different external haplos (J1c, J2a, G2a, T1a, etc) instead of having a good 90% of E-V13, J2b and R1b.
Ofcourse albanians weren't so static genetically, as we all would think + some of these (like T1a) are surely here from ancient times, but it makes me say hatsoff to our brothers in vuksanlekaj, plavë and, guci for how well preserved they are, a real time capsule for how albanians likely were.
It is not a good idea to look at things in such detail when it comes to kosovar albanians, macedonian albanians or even tosk albanians because individually these groups have not had enough tests so the results are skewed. Best to look at the whole picture for now until we get more results.

Right now we can see that north albanians have more j2b l283 whereas south albanians have more foreign influence. Because of this initially I suspected south albania had more ottoman migrants but then saw arbereshe figures (pre ottoman south albanians) and they had even more slavic/greek y dna already as well as italian. So could be a case of south albania being a mix of albanians + epirus (albanians & greeks) though not sure how so much south slavic y dna made its way to south albania and even more in greece! Also, there was this in south albania -

"Apollonia flourished under Roman rule and was noted by Cicero in his Philippicae as magna urbs et gravis, a great and important city. Christianity was established in the city at an early stage, and bishops from Apollonia were present during the First Council of Ephesus (431) and the Council of Chalcedon (451)."

I don't think any country in europe has 90% of continuous y dna over last 2000 years.

TaktikatEMalet
01-01-21, 20:07
According to Rrënjet, Albanians have 7,4% R1a lineages, with little difference between North (6,6%) and South (8,6 %). 3 % are under M458, 2 % under CTS1211 and 2,2 % unspecified M417 (most likely to be shared among the two precedents). I do not think that you can draw up a real distinction between Z280 and M458, since both were found in central Europe long before the Slavic ethnogenesis. Z280 was found in an ancient sample (1086 BC) in Germany (Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld). There is no real difference with the M458 (MX265) ancient sample found in Switzerland.
Besides, if you read the last study about the Viking world, you will see that there are several Viking samples under CTS1211, one of them (VK274 - 1000 ybp) falling under Y2902 (more precisely PH3519). So based upon ancient DNA, the Normans could also be a possible origin for the South Albanian CTS1211.
Finally, if you look at the TMRCA of the Albanian subclades under L1029, you will not find any figures predating the 7th century. So it is not really possible to distinguish between Slavic and pre-Slavic.

Are you able to find a strong amount of L1029 in south slavs, what percentage of R1a in south slavs carry L1029?

Do you suggest it more likely to be a south slavic migration marker than z280?

Hawk
01-01-21, 20:34
Wow bro, I paid a visit to gjenetika.com
What striked me was:
How clean kosovars were on the 3 main haplogroups.
How low macedonian albanians were on E1b-V13
How low we tosk are on J2b (wich really struck me)
How little external haplos montenegro albanians had (only I1 and J2a if i'm not mistaken)
How high on R1a and I2a greek albanians were (although you'd expect it)
What I don't understand is, why on average albanians got a good 20-25% of little percentages of many different external haplos (J1c, J2a, G2a, T1a, etc) instead of having a good 90% of E-V13, J2b and R1b.
Ofcourse albanians weren't so static genetically, as we all would think + some of these (like T1a) are surely here from ancient times, but it makes me say hatsoff to our brothers in vuksanlekaj, plavë and, guci for how well preserved they are, a real time capsule for how albanians likely were.

According to a peer reviewed scientific paper from 2019, Albanians in Macedonia have ~35% of E-V13, somewhere ~18% R1b and ~13.6% J2b2.

This paper is more reliable. :)


A total of 314 individuals representing the three major ethno-linguistic groups (ethnic Macedonians, Albanians and Turks) in the Republic of North Macedonia were analyzed for Y-SNPs and Y-STRs using minisequencing and fragment analysis. The haplogroup composition differed remarkably between the three groups with dominance of haplogroup I2 in ethnic Macedonians (28.1%), E1b in Albanians (35.3%) and J2a (34.9%) in Turks, respectively. The haplotype analysis using the YFilerPlus kit disclosed a significant reduction in diversity values (DC, GD) for the Turkish subgroup compared to the Macedonian and Albanian speaking populations. The Y-STR based population analysis revealed a similarity of ethnic Macedonians with neighboring Serbians and Bulgarians. The same holds true for the Albanian speakers from Macedonia and Albania, whereas the Turkish minority in North Macedonia stands apart from the population in Turkey.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497319301097

Dibran
01-01-21, 21:31
Are you able to find a strong amount of L1029 in south slavs, what percentage of R1a in south slavs carry L1029?
Do you suggest it more likely to be a south slavic migration marker than z280?


They both were involved with Slavic and atypically non Slavic migrations. In the Iron age things could have been different.
As far as the Balkans M458 only peaks in Bulgarians(7-8%). In other South Slavs its only between 3-5%. Most of that is L1029. And under L1029, YP417 and YP263 dominante(with more in YP417).

Most R1a in Balkan Slavs is Z280 dominant(more diversity). Bulgarians have a 60/40 split Z280>M458. Macedonians probably being somewhat comparable.

L1029 is highest in South East Slavs. M458 outside the Balkans is most diverse among Western Slavs. Though 60+%of M458 among Poles is mostly L260.

Based solely on FTDNA block tree, this is the heatmap for R-L1029.

https://i.postimg.cc/6p0QFLWr/L1029-heatmap.png

As for ancient DNA. Other than MX265 from Switzerland; an upcoming La Tene sample from Iron Age Czech/Bohemia was L1029(in peer review).

All samples thereafter fall in post-migration Northern Europe. Be they Slavic, Viking or German.

Based on diversity it likely originated or diversified somewhere around Central/Central East Europe. So far neither M458 sample predating late antiquity are Slavic.
It remains to be seen whether L1029 in IA Bohemia will split L1029 and be an outlier on the tree or if its on the same level. If its truly La Tene then they likely lived closer to the current TMRCA so its not impossible.

Regardless I think M458 along with I-Y3120 were originally pre-Slavic that became Proto-Slavic and spread from late antiquity onward.
Z280 is more complex. Some branches are Baltic. Some are possibly Germanic(basal branches) and others are linked with Balto-Slavs. But Balto-Slavic is long before "Slavic" and "Baltic" separated from each other.
Here you can find some heatmaps for Z280 subclades.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14018-R1a-haplotree-visualized-geographically/page5

Dibran
01-01-21, 21:57
....

Here's a heatmap of Y2902 based on ftdna samples.

https://i.postimg.cc/d1DjSjC3/y9u0qBx.png

Illyri
01-01-21, 23:57
Are you able to find a strong amount of L1029 in south slavs, what percentage of R1a in south slavs carry L1029?

Dibran answered your question much better than I could and I thank him for that.


Do you suggest it more likely to be a south slavic migration marker than z280?

No. I suggest that, at least for the time being, it is not possible to splitt them like you did.

Besides, it makes no sense to make such a categorization with +4500 years old SNPs (formed long before the Slavic ethnogenesis). You have to look at the terminal subclades, their current distribution, age, etc. For instance, if you look at the Dibra cluster (R-Y133361) for me it is a typical Albanian subclade (whose ancestor might well have been germanic independent from paralell subclades).

Although they seem based on frequencies (and as such might be biaised to some extent), the heatmaps posted by Dibran are helpful to visualize possible migration patterns. As you can see, both R-L1029 and R-Y2902 are not very frequent within South Slavs except Bulgarians. I think that, as regards their distribution in Southern Balkans, they have more similarities than differences.

Illyri
02-01-21, 00:06
Here's a heatmap of Y2902 based on ftdna samples.
https://i.postimg.cc/d1DjSjC3/y9u0qBx.png

Thanks for the map. Helpful as always.
How did you generate it ?
Can you make one for my terminal subclade?

TaktikatEMalet
02-01-21, 02:59
They both were involved with Slavic and atypically non Slavic migrations. In the Iron age things could have been different.
As far as the Balkans M458 only peaks in Bulgarians(7-8%). In other South Slavs its only between 3-5%. Most of that is L1029. And under L1029, YP417 and YP263 dominante(with more in YP417).
Most R1a in Balkan Slavs is Z280 dominant(more diversity). Bulgarians have a 60/40 split Z280>M458. Macedonians probably being somewhat comparable.
L1029 is highest in South East Slavs. M458 outside the Balkans is most diverse among Western Slavs. Though 60+%of M458 among Poles is mostly L260.
Based solely on FTDNA block tree, this is the heatmap for R-L1029.
https://i.postimg.cc/6p0QFLWr/L1029-heatmap.png
As for ancient DNA. Other than MX265 from Switzerland; an upcoming La Tene sample from Iron Age Czech/Bohemia was L1029(in peer review).
All samples thereafter fall in post-migration Northern Europe. Be they Slavic, Viking or German.
Based on diversity it likely originated or diversified somewhere around Central/Central East Europe. So far neither M458 sample predating late antiquity are Slavic.
It remains to be seen whether L1029 in IA Bohemia will split L1029 and be an outlier on the tree or if its on the same level. If its truly La Tene then they likely lived closer to the current TMRCA so its not impossible.
Regardless I think M458 along with I-Y3120 were originally pre-Slavic that became Proto-Slavic and spread from late antiquity onward.
Z280 is more complex. Some branches are Baltic. Some are possibly Germanic(basal branches) and others are linked with Balto-Slavs. But Balto-Slavic is long before "Slavic" and "Baltic" separated from each other.
Here you can find some heatmaps for Z280 subclades.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14018-R1a-haplotree-visualized-geographically/page5
Wow, these are odd maps - from these maps it is hard to argue for any of these being proto south slavic yet they carry plenty today. And surely south slavs carried some of these clades when moving into balkans, it would be cool to know which ones are likeliest. In terms of r1a subclade ratio, how would you sum up the south slavic figures using poreklo? Do they have a major group that stands out above the others?

As for L1029 what do you think is the explanation for this? Is Thracian likely or is it simply a Polish clade? What history can back up this link between the 2 regions. The Thracians were definitely in that area of Bulgaria and others that may have been further north and west could have fled down to this region during the south slavic invasions as a stronghold. Though as we see today there are still small amount of L1029 scattered throughout balkans

Gannicus
02-01-21, 02:59
It is not a good idea to look at things in such detail when it comes to kosovar albanians, macedonian albanians or even tosk albanians because individually these groups have not had enough tests so the results are skewed. Best to look at the whole picture for now until we get more results.

Right now we can see that north albanians have more j2b l283 whereas south albanians have more foreign influence. Because of this initially I suspected south albania had more ottoman migrants but then saw arbereshe figures (pre ottoman south albanians) and they had even more slavic/greek y dna already as well as italian. So could be a case of south albania being a mix of albanians + epirus (albanians & greeks) though not sure how so much south slavic y dna made its way to south albania and even more in greece! Also, there was this in south albania -

"Apollonia flourished under Roman rule and was noted by Cicero in his Philippicae as magna urbs et gravis, a great and important city. Christianity was established in the city at an early stage, and bishops from Apollonia were present during the First Council of Ephesus (431) and the Council of Chalcedon (451)."

I don't think any country in europe has 90% of continuous y dna over last 2000 years.

Wow, very interesting stuff, thank you for sharing.

It's very interesting, we tosks are quite mixed (although not as much as some people try to fantacize)

Speaking as a 12.5% vlach, and having suspects my mother is partially goranje (muslim slav) and coming from poliçan, I am directly affected by this, wich is definitely not a bad thing.

If i'm not mistaken, they say racial diversity increases the genetic richness of a population and consequently it's health (correct me if i'm wrong)

This is one of the reasons why italy is one of the healthiest countries of the world and experiences such a long life expectancy.

Gannicus
02-01-21, 03:06
According to a peer reviewed scientific paper from 2019, Albanians in Macedonia have ~35% of E-V13, somewhere ~18% R1b and ~13.6% J2b2.

This paper is more reliable. :)






Thanks brother, very interesting.

With the little knowledge of genetics I gathered untill now I deduce albanian and slavic/macedonian haplogroups, got more diversity, as both are NOT recent settlers, but are there from thousands of years, whereas turks have less diversity as they settled in the late ottoman period :)

I know i'm causing vomit to experts here, as I just denoted my ignorance with this post (as these are the basises and should be given for granted) but i'm here to learn, step by step.
Cheers!

Gannicus
02-01-21, 03:16
They both were involved with Slavic and atypically non Slavic migrations. In the Iron age things could have been different.
As far as the Balkans M458 only peaks in Bulgarians(7-8%). In other South Slavs its only between 3-5%. Most of that is L1029. And under L1029, YP417 and YP263 dominante(with more in YP417).

Most R1a in Balkan Slavs is Z280 dominant(more diversity). Bulgarians have a 60/40 split Z280>M458. Macedonians probably being somewhat comparable.

L1029 is highest in South East Slavs. M458 outside the Balkans is most diverse among Western Slavs. Though 60+%of M458 among Poles is mostly L260.

Based solely on FTDNA block tree, this is the heatmap for R-L1029.

https://i.postimg.cc/6p0QFLWr/L1029-heatmap.png

As for ancient DNA. Other than MX265 from Switzerland; an upcoming La Tene sample from Iron Age Czech/Bohemia was L1029(in peer review).

All samples thereafter fall in post-migration Northern Europe. Be they Slavic, Viking or German.

Based on diversity it likely originated or diversified somewhere around Central/Central East Europe. So far neither M458 sample predating late antiquity are Slavic.
It remains to be seen whether L1029 in IA Bohemia will split L1029 and be an outlier on the tree or if its on the same level. If its truly La Tene then they likely lived closer to the current TMRCA so its not impossible.

Regardless I think M458 along with I-Y3120 were originally pre-Slavic that became Proto-Slavic and spread from late antiquity onward.
Z280 is more complex. Some branches are Baltic. Some are possibly Germanic(basal branches) and others are linked with Balto-Slavs. But Balto-Slavic is long before "Slavic" and "Baltic" separated from each other.
Here you can find some heatmaps for Z280 subclades.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14018-R1a-haplotree-visualized-geographically/page5

Well, if in my ignorance I could add a thought in regards to this, it makes sense that there is a high concentration of pre-slavic R1a around Poland, otherwise how do you explain the very high levels of R1a among modern poles, compared to south slavs, whose main (I2a) haplogroup supposedly originated in southern poland, wich should come at higher numbers among poles, if the R1a they have today were to be associated with the slavic expansion, therefore with an I2a expansion.

Hope I give a useful isnight, always open for correction.
(Afterall i'm here so that u can cover me with insults and critiques hahahaha)

Gannicus
02-01-21, 03:24
If I can introduce my suggestions to the conversation.

Idk what the data regarding this pre-slavic DNA is, but:

A) if it is mainly found in bulgaria I think it is very likely thracian.

B) if found more among jugoslavs and less or even non existent among bulgarians it's polish, as we would expect south slavs to have brought some of that pre-slavic polish R1a with them, but not bulgarians who never were in poland.

Hope I added something meaningful to the conversation.

Hawk
02-01-21, 14:07
Thanks brother, very interesting.

With the little knowledge of genetics I gathered untill now I deduce albanian and slavic/macedonian haplogroups, got more diversity, as both are NOT recent settlers, but are there from thousands of years, whereas turks have less diversity as they settled in the late ottoman period :)

I know i'm causing vomit to experts here, as I just denoted my ignorance with this post (as these are the basises and should be given for granted) but i'm here to learn, step by step.
Cheers!

No, on contrary you are curious and that's a very valuable attribute to have.

E-V13 is strong among Albanians from all regions, it's the most consistent Y-DNA among Albanian speaking people.

Gannicus
02-01-21, 14:10
No, on contrary you are curious and that's a very valuable attribute to have.
E-V13 is strong among Albanians from all regions, it's the most consistent Y-DNA among Albanian speaking people.
Thank you very much for the compliment, really appreciate it.
Yeah, although data is scattered, and we don't have enough tested people we can conclude so, as it is the one that consistently has the highest percentage among different groups of albanians.
Very interesting stuff!

Dibran
02-01-21, 15:41
If I can introduce my suggestions to the conversation.
Idk what the data regarding this pre-slavic DNA is, but:
A) if it is mainly found in bulgaria I think it is very likely thracian.
B) if found more among jugoslavs and less or even non existent among bulgarians it's polish, as we would expect south slavs to have brought some of that pre-slavic polish R1a with them, but not bulgarians who never were in poland.
Hope I added something meaningful to the conversation.

Pre-Slavic DNA was found in Central Europe for these haplogroups not Bulgaria. Bulgaria is just one of the migration points anywhere between late antiquity and early medieval. Among these migrations mostly Slavs and East Germanic groups.

If M458 and Z280 made it earlier with East La Tene into Thrace, we still have no evidence of that yet.

Dibran
02-01-21, 15:46
Well, if in my ignorance I could add a thought in regards to this, it makes sense that there is a high concentration of pre-slavic R1a around Poland, otherwise how do you explain the very high levels of R1a among modern poles, compared to south slavs, whose main (I2a) haplogroup supposedly originated in southern poland, wich should come at higher numbers among poles, if the R1a they have today were to be associated with the slavic expansion, therefore with an I2a expansion.
Hope I give a useful isnight, always open for correction.
(Afterall i'm here so that u can cover me with insults and critiques hahahaha)

These are modern samples in the heatmap. Ancient DNA is too few to make any concrete statements. However, it does appear at present that M458 and Z280 did have occurrences in pre-Slavic Central Europeans.

If the singular M458* in late Hallstatt and upcoming L1029* in the following lron Age La Tene culture found in Czechia are anything to go by it seems to be found exactly where both are found today.

Though it remains to be seen if most M458 there today is the reault of pre-slavic M458 or back migration to Central Europe later with Slavic tribes who may have had more Eastern branches of the same line. This at least could be likely for YP417 under L1029 which is the most dominant and universal in Slavic L1029.

Some point to Western Russia as the origin of L1029 but there seems little to support this. For one, Western Russia was more subject to gene flow from Poland/West Slavs. Also, despite 10% M458, Russian M458 mostly falls into YP417 under L1029 and YP515 under M458.

The majority of L1029/M458 clades and their diversity, seems to be Central Europe, more specifically Poland, Czechia, East Germany.

TaktikatEMalet
02-01-21, 16:32
These are modern samples in the heatmap. Ancient DNA is too few to make any concrete statements. However, it does appear at present that M458 and Z280 did have occurrences in pre-Slavic Central Europeans.

If the singular M458* in late Hallstatt and upcoming L1029* in the following lron Age La Tene culture found in Czechia are anything to go by it seems to be found exactly where both are found today.

Though it remains to be seen if most M458 there today is the reault of pre-slavic M458 or back migration to Central Europe later with Slavic tribes who may have had more Eastern branches of the same line. This at least could be likely for YP417 under L1029 which is the most dominant and universal in Slavic L1029.

Some point to Western Russia as the origin of L1029 but there seems little to support this. For one, Western Russia was more subject to gene flow from Poland/West Slavs. Also, despite 10% M458, Russian M458 mostly falls into YP417 under L1029 and YP515 under M458.

The majority of L1029/M458 clades and their diversity, seems to be Central Europe, more specifically Poland, Czechia, East Germany.

What history does this northern R1a have with Bulgaria? How is it to have bypassed all the Serbs and made its way to Bulgaria? Surely must be pre south slavic migration group

Dibran
02-01-21, 17:18
Wow, these are odd maps - from these maps it is hard to argue for any of these being proto south slavic yet they carry plenty today. And surely south slavs carried some of these clades when moving into balkans, it would be cool to know which ones are likeliest. In terms of r1a subclade ratio, how would you sum up the south slavic figures using poreklo? Do they have a major group that stands out above the others?
As for L1029 what do you think is the explanation for this? Is Thracian likely or is it simply a Polish clade? What history can back up this link between the 2 regions. The Thracians were definitely in that area of Bulgaria and others that may have been further north and west could have fled down to this region during the south slavic invasions as a stronghold. Though as we see today there are still small amount of L1029 scattered throughout balkans

Well, some clades can surely be proto-slavic/proto-south Slavic. More probably the former as opposed to the latter. However, alot of it rests on minimal ancient DNA evidence with modern distributions guiding us. Which can be problematic when taking into account industrialization, and the advent of nationalism, and socio-cultural borders.

Considering how much the ethnic landscape can change in a few centuries, there's still a gap over a millennium wide between the only 2 ancient M458/L1029 samples we have and the post migration Viking, Slavic and German samples we have from the 8th-14th centuries.

Just spit balling here, but based on what I have seen it appears out of 18% R1a on poreklo, only about 5% of that is M458. Most of which is YP417 under L1029, and more specifically subclade YP6047 which is found in Croats and Bosnians as well. Though it has a dominant representation amongst Serbs. This and R1a-M458>A11460(a subclade closer to the root of M458) has Serbs forming a clade(1400ybp) and a Pole that is basal who is 2800ybp with them. One of these is a Serb fom Kosova.

Among Bulgarians, they are 60/40(Z280>M458). Their M458 is dominantly L1029. Within L1029, not counting any less common clusters, YP417 and YP263 dominate, with YP417 being higher than YP263. I'm sure they have L260 as well considering it pops up in Albanians. Though L260 seems most rare among Balkan M458 branches. I may be wrong but I think it showed up in Shkoder and some in the South. We also Plan/Pult clans who are also R1a-M417. Most likely CTS3402 under Z280. Not yet confirmed. Have a couple in Mat and one in Kercove that is likely basal Y33* under Z280, which is quite interesting given the tmrxa is Iron Age.

Recently an Albanian from North Dibra was A11460 which is common in Serbs. Though it remains to be seen if hes close to those Serbs or form his own branch. Distribution wise most R1a in South East Slavs has a 60/40(Z280>M458). Among South West Slavs Z280 is more dominant. M458 peaks in Bulgarians, more especially central Bulgaria.

I really don't think L1029 has much to do with Thracians. I wouldn't call it Polish because they didn't even existed when L1029 formed or even when the most recent ancestor lived.

I think the most you can connect L1029 with Thracians, is potentially East La Tene outlier who brought it into Thracians(now that we have it in La Tene coming up). I still think East La Tene was dominant in R1b though so it would have probably still been more common than L1029, even if one managed to go in that direction.

And even still , I am of the opinion that L1029 became assimilated into Proto-Slavs so even if its pre-Slavic origin was East La Tene or something else; its movement in late antiquity and early medieval is most probably associated with Slavic migrations, Viking Culture and maybe Ostrogoths. Central European Celts dissappear from mention by the end of the IA.

I think if any East Germanic or East Celtic peoples are affiliated with M458 or Z280, it would be Bastarnae. There never was a firm agreement on whether they were Germanic, Celtic or Proto-Slavic. They were the most Eastern ones anyways. Theres also the Neuri who are believed to be Proto-Slavic but classified as either Celtic or Baltic by some.

Z280 is however the original Balto-Slavic line as it united Baltic and Slavic branches of R1a. M458 in Balts has no diversity and only dates to late antiquity and early medieval. Most basal M458 branches appear in Poland so I believe M458 may have originated there or around Czechia. Though its just guesswork based on what we have so far.

Here's a list of all the M458/L1029 samples. Alot of the Viking samples were "Polish-like". Though on PCA they appeared Baltic shifted. Viking was a profession afterall and Baltic Vikings were some of the last pagans practicing raiding.


List:

-760 BCE, Late Hallstatt, Singen, Swabia, Germany
-Iron Age La Tene, Bohemia, Czechia(in peer review)
-800 AD, Viking, Galgedil, Funen, Denmark
-900 AD, Viking, Sigtuna, Uppland, Sweden
-900 AD, Viking, Kurewanicha, Zalesye, Russia
-900 AD, Viking, Kopparsvik, Gotland, Sweden
-900 AD, Viking, Kopparsvik, Gotland, Sweden
-900 AD, Viking, Frojel, Gotland, Sweden
-900 AD, Viking, Sandomierz, Lesser Poland, Poland
-900 AD, Viking, Ładoga, Gardariki, Russia
-900 AD, Viking, Skara, Western Götaland, Sweden
-973 AD, Viking, Cedynia, Lebusland, Poland.
-975 AD, Viking, Ciepłe, Pomerania, Poland(2 samples)
-1060 AD, German admixed Slavs?, Wüstung, Saxom Anhalt, Germany(2 samples)
-1158 AD, German, Wüstung, Sax.-Anhalt, Germany
-1100 AD, Usedom, Mecklenburg-V., Germany
-1200 AD, Rus Viking, Łuck, Wolhynia, Ukraine
1400 AD, German-Dutch, Oldenzaal, Overijssel, Netherlands.
1560 AD, Muskovite, Radonież, Moscow, Russia., Sweden.
973 AD, Viking, Cedynia, Lebusland, Poland.
975 AD, Viking, Ciepłe, Pomerania, Poland, twice.
1060 AD, German? Slavic?, Wüstung, Sax.-Anhalt, Germany, twice.
1158 AD, German, Wüstung, Sax.-Anhalt, Germany.
1100 AD, Slavic (postViking?), Usedom, Mecklenburg-V., Germany.
1200 AD, Norse (sic!), Łuck, Wolhynia, Ukraine.
1400 AD, German-Dutch, Oldenzaal, Overijssel, Netherlands.
1560 AD, Muskovite, Radonież, Moscow, Russia

M458 heatmap(may be out of date but includes all branches):

https://i.postimg.cc/x8Qrvvn4/Haplogroup-R1a-M458.png

Gannicus
02-01-21, 17:34
Pre-Slavic DNA was found in Central Europe for these haplogroups not Bulgaria. Bulgaria is just one of the migration points anywhere between late antiquity and early medieval. Among these migrations mostly Slavs and East Germanic groups.

If M458 and Z280 made it earlier with East La Tene into Thrace, we still have no evidence of that yet.

Wow, very interesting, thanks!

Gannicus
02-01-21, 17:37
These are modern samples in the heatmap. Ancient DNA is too few to make any concrete statements. However, it does appear at present that M458 and Z280 did have occurrences in pre-Slavic Central Europeans.

If the singular M458* in late Hallstatt and upcoming L1029* in the following lron Age La Tene culture found in Czechia are anything to go by it seems to be found exactly where both are found today.

Though it remains to be seen if most M458 there today is the reault of pre-slavic M458 or back migration to Central Europe later with Slavic tribes who may have had more Eastern branches of the same line. This at least could be likely for YP417 under L1029 which is the most dominant and universal in Slavic L1029.

Some point to Western Russia as the origin of L1029 but there seems little to support this. For one, Western Russia was more subject to gene flow from Poland/West Slavs. Also, despite 10% M458, Russian M458 mostly falls into YP417 under L1029 and YP515 under M458.

The majority of L1029/M458 clades and their diversity, seems to be Central Europe, more specifically Poland, Czechia, East Germany.

Well, it makes sense that Russian R1a is likely to have come from poland rather than have been local, as slavs weren't present in russia before the kievan rus kingdoms went there, founding in the north the merchantile republic of Novgorod, while in the center the tsardom of muscovy, wich would later unify the surrounding lands and become russia.

Very interesting stuff, thanks for the info!

Dibran
02-01-21, 17:39
What history does this northern R1a have with Bulgaria? How is it to have bypassed all the Serbs and made its way to Bulgaria? Surely must be pre south slavic migration group

I wouldn't say it bypassed Serbs. Most figures average M458 at 5% in Serbs. Some studies showed 4%, and others 6%. Then they have about 13% Z280 which is of course more dominant.

In Serbs most of their M458 is L1029>YP417 and M458>A11460. They have some basal L1029* cases who are negative for most downstream clades. I'm not sure if or how much YP263 that have. Probably not much. Seems YP263 is more prevalent in West Slavs/East Germans and of course South East Slavs. L1029/YP263 is also found in North and South Kavkaz like Adyghe, Shapsough, Dargins etc.

Some branches were probably taken as captives by the Mongols in Central Europe, explaining the Chinese samples in L1029 who share matches with Poles.

I think the only peoples between late antiquity and early medieval we can connect it with from most to least likely are Proto-Slavs, Vikings, East Germanics, Bulgars, Avars and Huns. In the Iron Age, one would assume some sort of Central European affiliation be it Celtic or otherwise based on the only 2 ancient samples we have.

Dibran
02-01-21, 18:33
Thanks for the map. Helpful as always.
How did you generate it ?
Can you make one for my terminal subclade?

It was made by the user ph2ter from Anthrogenica. I can ask him if he can make a map of your clade. It would include only ftdna testers positive YP3994 though. So any from yseq or yfull that didn't test through ftdna won't show on the map.

TaktikatEMalet
02-01-21, 19:50
Well, some clades can surely be proto-slavic/proto-south Slavic. More probably the former as opposed to the latter. However, alot of it rests on minimal ancient DNA evidence with modern distributions guiding us. Which can be problematic when taking into account industrialization, and the advent of nationalism, and socio-cultural borders.
Considering how much the ethnic landscape can change in a few centuries, there's still a gap over a millennium wide between the only 2 ancient M458/L1029 samples we have and the post migration Viking, Slavic and German samples we have from the 8th-14th centuries.
Just spit balling here, but based on what I have seen it appears out of 18% R1a on poreklo, only about 5% of that is M458. Most of which is YP417 under L1029, and more specifically subclade YP6047 which is found in Croats and Bosnians as well. Though it has a dominant representation amongst Serbs. This and R1a-M458>A11460(a subclade closer to the root of M458) has Serbs forming a clade(1400ybp) and a Pole that is basal who is 2800ybp with them. One of these is a Serb fom Kosova.
Among Bulgarians, they are 60/40(Z280>M458). Their M458 is dominantly L1029. Within L1029, not counting any less common clusters, YP417 and YP263 dominate, with YP417 being higher than YP263. I'm sure they have L260 as well considering it pops up in Albanians. Though L260 seems most rare among Balkan M458 branches. I may be wrong but I think it showed up in Shkoder and some in the South. We also Plan/Pult clans who are also R1a-M417. Most likely CTS3402 under Z280. Not yet confirmed. Have a couple in Mat and one in Kercove that is likely basal Y33* under Z280, which is quite interesting given the tmrxa is Iron Age.
Recently an Albanian from North Dibra was A11460 which is common in Serbs. Though it remains to be seen if hes close to those Serbs or form his own branch. Distribution wise most R1a in South East Slavs has a 60/40(Z280>M458). Among South West Slavs Z280 is more dominant. M458 peaks in Bulgarians, more especially central Bulgaria.
I really don't think L1029 has much to do with Thracians. I wouldn't call it Polish because they didn't even existed when L1029 formed or even when the most recent ancestor lived.
I think the most you can connect L1029 with Thracians, is potentially East La Tene outlier who brought it into Thracians(now that we have it in La Tene coming up). I still think East La Tene was dominant in R1b though so it would have probably still been more common than L1029, even if one managed to go in that direction.
And even still , I am of the opinion that L1029 became assimilated into Proto-Slavs so even if its pre-Slavic origin was East La Tene or something else; its movement in late antiquity and early medieval is most probably associated with Slavic migrations, Viking Culture and maybe Ostrogoths. Central European Celts dissappear from mention by the end of the IA.
I think if any East Germanic or East Celtic peoples are affiliated with M458 or Z280, it would be Bastarnae. There never was a firm agreement on whether they were Germanic, Celtic or Proto-Slavic. They were the most Eastern ones anyways. Theres also the Neuri who are believed to be Proto-Slavic but classified as either Celtic or Baltic by some.
Z280 is however the original Balto-Slavic line as it united Baltic and Slavic branches of R1a. M458 in Balts has no diversity and only dates to late antiquity and early medieval. Most basal M458 branches appear in Poland so I believe M458 may have originated there or around Czechia. Though its just guesswork based on what we have so far.
Here's a list of all the M458/L1029 samples. Alot of the Viking samples were "Polish-like". Though on PCA they appeared Baltic shifted. Viking was a profession afterall and Baltic Vikings were some of the last pagans practicing raiding.
List:
-760 BCE, Late Hallstatt, Singen, Swabia, Germany
-Iron Age La Tene, Bohemia, Czechia(in peer review)
-800 AD, Viking, Galgedil, Funen, Denmark
-900 AD, Viking, Sigtuna, Uppland, Sweden
-900 AD, Viking, Kurewanicha, Zalesye, Russia
-900 AD, Viking, Kopparsvik, Gotland, Sweden
-900 AD, Viking, Kopparsvik, Gotland, Sweden
-900 AD, Viking, Frojel, Gotland, Sweden
-900 AD, Viking, Sandomierz, Lesser Poland, Poland
-900 AD, Viking, Ładoga, Gardariki, Russia
-900 AD, Viking, Skara, Western Götaland, Sweden
-973 AD, Viking, Cedynia, Lebusland, Poland.
-975 AD, Viking, Ciepłe, Pomerania, Poland(2 samples)
-1060 AD, German admixed Slavs?, Wüstung, Saxom Anhalt, Germany(2 samples)
-1158 AD, German, Wüstung, Sax.-Anhalt, Germany
-1100 AD, Usedom, Mecklenburg-V., Germany
-1200 AD, Rus Viking, Łuck, Wolhynia, Ukraine
1400 AD, German-Dutch, Oldenzaal, Overijssel, Netherlands.
1560 AD, Muskovite, Radonież, Moscow, Russia., Sweden.
973 AD, Viking, Cedynia, Lebusland, Poland.
975 AD, Viking, Ciepłe, Pomerania, Poland, twice.
1060 AD, German? Slavic?, Wüstung, Sax.-Anhalt, Germany, twice.
1158 AD, German, Wüstung, Sax.-Anhalt, Germany.
1100 AD, Slavic (postViking?), Usedom, Mecklenburg-V., Germany.
1200 AD, Norse (sic!), Łuck, Wolhynia, Ukraine.
1400 AD, German-Dutch, Oldenzaal, Overijssel, Netherlands.
1560 AD, Muskovite, Radonież, Moscow, Russia
M458 heatmap(may be out of date but includes all branches):
https://i.postimg.cc/x8Qrvvn4/Haplogroup-R1a-M458.png
Great stuff, thanks

Looking at these figures it is possible to say that south slavic migrants mainly carried i2a p37 and 20%+ r1a z280 alongside some minor other r1a

If Bulgarians carry more L1029 than Serbs it is highly unlikely it was brought there by them, viking is more likely and possible through the black sea though as far as I'm aware Bulgaria doesn't have much i1 which should have travelled alongside L1029

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_expansion#/media/File%3AViking_Expansion.svg

La tene is another interesting theory but from I have read they were mostly R1b, not sure how strong R1b is in Bulgaria but this is a very very unlikely link, do you have access to a database for Bulgarian dna?

Bastarnae is more probable but what history did they have in Bulgaria? Dacians were in their way. Also Bastarnae should carry i1 in addition to maybe R1b or i2a m223 due to their disputed german or celtic roots?

Dibran
02-01-21, 20:44
Great stuff, thanks
Looking at these figures it is possible to say that south slavic migrants mainly carried i2a p37 and 20%+ r1a z280 alongside some minor other r1a
If Bulgarians carry more L1029 than Serbs it is highly unlikely it was brought there by them, viking is more likely and possible through the black sea though as far as I'm aware Bulgaria doesn't have much i1 which should have travelled alongside L1029
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_expansion#/media/File%3AViking_Expansion.svg
La tene is another interesting theory but from I have read they were mostly R1b, not sure how strong R1b is in Bulgaria but this is a very very unlikely link, do you have access to a database for Bulgarian dna?
Bastarnae is more probable but what history did they have in Bulgaria? Dacians were in their way. Also Bastarnae should carry i1 in addition to maybe R1b or i2a m223 due to their disputed german or celtic roots?


Not certain. I mean they definitely carried all 3. However, I-Y3120 dominance in South Slavs is due to founder effects and bottlenecks. There is more diversity within Z280 among all Slavs, despite I-Y3120 dominating. R1a-L1029 is similar to I-Y3120 in that theres not much diversity in South Slavs(and to some extent East Slavs) though its different in the fact that it did not rise to the same prominence as I-Y3120. I-Y3120 may not be high in West/East Slavs, but it is more diverse in them, suggesting a north south migration between late antiquity and early medieval. Viking L1029 seems more concentrated in the North and British Isles even if very low. If Vikings brought some L1029 to Bulgaria/the Balkans, i imagine it would be Varangian Vikings which had mixed origins. They were used as Byzantine guard, and stationed in Macedonia as well. L1029 in Bulgaria is more likely to be linked to Slavs/Proto-Slavs that came in various intervals between late antiquity to early medieval. Be they Antes Foederati, Ostrogoths, or largely the later Slavic, and Bulgar arrivals that probably absorbed these elements around Central-East Europe.

Bastarnae are mentioned as being very mixed. At the earliest Bastarnae were used by Alexander's father against the Dardanians. They also raided/looted the Thraco-Odrysians. Theres no concensus on whether they were Germanic, or Celtic. They are referred to as being culturally German, sometimes linguistically Celtic by some of the earliest historians. They are also referred to as Scytho-Sarmatians, and other times simply "other peoples between the Celts and the Germans". Suffice to say they weren't certain. That's probably because they really were a mixed tribal confederation with a Celtic elite. Its believed Bastarnae were from the lower Vistula and correspond with the Zarubintsy Culture.

This culture is also associated with the Proto-Slavs/Pre-Slavs. Its very plausible Bastarnae carried a number of lineages among them. R1b, I2a2, I1, R1a-M458/Z280/Z93, I-Y3120 etc. Their Celtic element was probably dominantly R1b-L51. The Scytho-Sarmatian/Proto-Slavic elements could be correlated with R1a/I-Y3120, who knows. L1029 being in East La Tene and Proto-Slavic from late antiquity onward could reflect a transition phase from East La Tene/Scytho-Sarmatian elements into Zarubintsy and from there moved south with the Proto-Slavs/Slavs into the Balkans. This could be the case for I-Y3120 as well though no ancient DNA with I-Y3120 in La Tene yet.

Some of these lines subclades participated in different loosely related neighboring cultures as well. So without ancient dna no one can make any concrete statements.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarubintsy_culture

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanian%E2%80%93Bastarnic_war

Illyri
02-01-21, 22:10
It was made by the user ph2ter from Anthrogenica. I can ask him if he can make a map of your clade. It would include only ftdna testers positive YP3994 though. So any from yseq or yfull that didn't test through ftdna won't show on the map.

Thanks, I found the thread and will ask him myself.
For yseq and yfull samples, there is another tool online: https://phylogeographer.com/scripts/heatmap.php

If you look at the heatmaps of R-L1029 and R-Y2902, they are slightly different from the ones you posted. I assume that if someone merged both maps, it would give a more accurate vision of the modern distribution.

Dibran
02-01-21, 23:00
Thanks, I found the thread and will ask him myself.
For yseq and yfull samples, there is another tool online: https://phylogeographer.com/scripts/heatmap.php

If you look at the heatmaps of R-L1029 and R-Y2902, they are slightly different from the ones you posted. I assume that if someone merged both maps, it would give a more accurate vision of the modern distribution.

Yes,

Well, as mentioned his maps are based strictly on ftdna sample data from projects.

Phylogeographer uses yfull/yseq data only.

Merging the 2 would be great. However, not sure how it would be done.

Illyri
02-01-21, 23:37
Great stuff, thanks
Looking at these figures it is possible to say that south slavic migrants mainly carried i2a p37 and 20%+ r1a z280 alongside some minor other r1a

As usual, Dibran's posts are detailed, well reasonned and documented and I appreciate them for that. But as such, you cannot accurately summarize them in a one sentence statement.

Whatever R1a lineages, the South Slavs brought in the Balkans, it was not R-M458 and R-Z280 but their various subclades (given the TMRCA of 4500/4800 ybp and the timeframe of their migration). And it is not possible to split their frequencies between R-Z280 and other R1a subclades as you try to do. It is obvious that some ancestors might have been succesful in passing their genes and others not, which can radically change the frequence in more than 1000 years.

To give you a simple example, Serbians have 38 % of I2a-CTS10228 according to their DNA project. Majority of which is PH908, whose ancestor (of whatever ethnicity he was) lived approximately 1550 ybp. While he certainly did not settle alone in the Balkans, for some reasons, many of his companion's lineages went extinct and his descendants were very succesful. And the descendants of this single man are now millions. This shows, to the extent needed, that you cannot rely on current frequencies to find out those prevailing 15 centuries ago.


If Bulgarians carry more L1029 than Serbs it is highly unlikely it was brought there by them

Correct me if I am wrong (since I am not an expert on Slavic history), but Bulgarians and Serbians were different tribes (both their elite and the Slavic population : Antes / Slavs), they do not share exactly the same pre migration homeland and did not necessarily follow the same migration route, which can easily justify certain differencies in haplogroup frequencies.

Illyri
02-01-21, 23:58
Though L260 seems most rare among Balkan M458 branches. I may be wrong but I think it showed up in Shkoder and some in the South. We also Plan/Pult clans who are also R1a-M417. Most likely CTS3402 under Z280. Not yet confirmed. Have a couple in Mat and one in Kercove that is likely basal Y33* under Z280, which is quite interesting given the tmrxa is Iron Age.
Recently an Albanian from North Dibra was A11460 which is common in Serbs. Though it remains to be seen if hes close to those Serbs or form his own branch.

To have a complete picture, there are also a R-Y3226* sample (from Tepelena) and a new R-YP515* sample (from Mallakastër), so two additional founder effects.

Do you know if the Plan/Pult clans intend to test deeper ? It would be very interesting to know their confirmed terminal subclade.

Illyri
03-01-21, 00:04
There is more diversity within Z280 among all Slavs, despite I-Y3120 dominating

Where could I found more precise information on this?
I gave a look on poreklo, but in their summary of 2019 (in english) they only mention 4 subclades for R-Z280 and 3 for R-M458.

Dibran
03-01-21, 00:20
Where could I found more precise information on this?
I gave a look on poreklo, but in their summary of 2019 (in english) they only mention 4 subclades for R-Z280 and 3 for R-M458.

Sorry for my typo. I mean in Slavs in general. Z280 is the dominantly represented R1a in all groups from East to West to South. Diverse in the sense that there are older and more than one clade/branch represented among the population. Compared to M458 which has a West to East cline and has considerable percentages only among West Slavs and some others in Central Europe like East Germans for example. Whereas there's only one major clade in M458(among less common ones) that makes up most of the M458 in East and South Slavs, which is L1029.

Compared to Z280 which has branches that split from eachother in the Iron Age and Bronze Age, that can be found scattered among all the groups; most branches of M458 beside L1029, old basal ones, can be found in Poles/other West Slavs mostly. No Baltic specific or diverse branches of M458 seem to appear outside of Central/Central-East Europe.

Dibran
03-01-21, 00:22
To have a complete picture, there are also a R-Y3226* sample (from Tepelena) and a new R-YP515* sample (from Mallakastër), so two additional founder effects.

Do you know if the Plan/Pult clans intend to test deeper ? It would be very interesting to know their confirmed terminal subclade.

Cool. Yea I knew about the YP515* sample. Pretty interesting. Theres also the Southern cluster of L1029 under YP263(R-FT205939), which also has a guy from Kukes who didn't upload.

TaktikatEMalet
03-01-21, 04:56
Not certain. I mean they definitely carried all 3. However, I-Y3120 dominance in South Slavs is due to founder effects and bottlenecks. There is more diversity within Z280 among all Slavs, despite I-Y3120 dominating. R1a-L1029 is similar to I-Y3120 in that theres not much diversity in South Slavs(and to some extent East Slavs) though its different in the fact that it did not rise to the same prominence as I-Y3120. I-Y3120 may not be high in West/East Slavs, but it is more diverse in them, suggesting a north south migration between late antiquity and early medieval. Viking L1029 seems more concentrated in the North and British Isles even if very low. If Vikings brought some L1029 to Bulgaria/the Balkans, i imagine it would be Varangian Vikings which had mixed origins. They were used as Byzantine guard, and stationed in Macedonia as well. L1029 in Bulgaria is more likely to be linked to Slavs/Proto-Slavs that came in various intervals between late antiquity to early medieval. Be they Antes Foederati, Ostrogoths, or largely the later Slavic, and Bulgar arrivals that probably absorbed these elements around Central-East Europe.
Bastarnae are mentioned as being very mixed. At the earliest Bastarnae were used by Alexander's father against the Dardanians. They also raided/looted the Thraco-Odrysians. Theres no concensus on whether they were Germanic, or Celtic. They are referred to as being culturally German, sometimes linguistically Celtic by some of the earliest historians. They are also referred to as Scytho-Sarmatians, and other times simply "other peoples between the Celts and the Germans". Suffice to say they weren't certain. That's probably because they really were a mixed tribal confederation with a Celtic elite. Its believed Bastarnae were from the lower Vistula and correspond with the Zarubintsy Culture.
This culture is also associated with the Proto-Slavs/Pre-Slavs. Its very plausible Bastarnae carried a number of lineages among them. R1b, I2a2, I1, R1a-M458/Z280/Z93, I-Y3120 etc. Their Celtic element was probably dominantly R1b-L51. The Scytho-Sarmatian/Proto-Slavic elements could be correlated with R1a/I-Y3120, who knows. L1029 being in East La Tene and Proto-Slavic from late antiquity onward could reflect a transition phase from East La Tene/Scytho-Sarmatian elements into Zarubintsy and from there moved south with the Proto-Slavs/Slavs into the Balkans. This could be the case for I-Y3120 as well though no ancient DNA with I-Y3120 in La Tene yet.
Some of these lines subclades participated in different loosely related neighboring cultures as well. So without ancient dna no one can make any concrete statements.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarubintsy_culture
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanian%E2%80%93Bastarnic_war

Very interesting, Dardanian vs Bastarnae war sounds cool

Whichever groups lived in the regions where proto South slavs came from, they cannot be strong on r1b - most r1b in south slavs was assimilated. South slavs took their land and slavicized them such as r1b Z2103 and maybe u152 though there was still italian involvement in upper balkans post Slavic migration.

R1b is quite low in south slavs and some of it would have come from north west from areas like Germany settling into south slavic lands well after the south slavic invasions

TaktikatEMalet
03-01-21, 05:36
As usual, Dibran's posts are detailed, well reasonned and documented and I appreciate them for that. But as such, you cannot accurately summarize them in a one sentence statement.
Whatever R1a lineages, the South Slavs brought in the Balkans, it was not R-M458 and R-Z280 but their various subclades (given the TMRCA of 4500/4800 ybp and the timeframe of their migration). And it is not possible to split their frequencies between R-Z280 and other R1a subclades as you try to do. It is obvious that some ancestors might have been succesful in passing their genes and others not, which can radically change the frequence in more than 1000 years.
To give you a simple example, Serbians have 38 % of I2a-CTS10228 according to their DNA project. Majority of which is PH908, whose ancestor (of whatever ethnicity he was) lived approximately 1550 ybp. While he certainly did not settle alone in the Balkans, for some reasons, many of his companion's lineages went extinct and his descendants were very succesful. And the descendants of this single man are now millions. This shows, to the extent needed, that you cannot rely on current frequencies to find out those prevailing 15 centuries ago.
Correct me if I am wrong (since I am not an expert on Slavic history), but Bulgarians and Serbians were different tribes (both their elite and the Slavic population : Antes / Slavs), they do not share exactly the same pre migration homeland and did not necessarily follow the same migration route, which can easily justify certain differencies in haplogroup frequencies.

Yes, I don't have enough data (from different regions of balkans) on subclades to make better statements

Ancestors not being successful in passing their y dna is the natural flow of life, it means they were less important in defending the culture, language and identity of their people long term. This is why for me, frequency is more important than diversity when it comes to identifying a group to a tribe/culture/country especially in the middle ages because general culture was different to what it is now

If south slavs have majority ph908 then that is the most important reason for them settling the region and holding it down - at least initially before guns became a thing. You say they lost other y dna along the way, that is great but we need proof of that with ancient dna. What we know for sure is ph908 is the major one they passed further down into balkans all the way to Greece. I am here talking about which y dna has been passed onto where and linking it to potential "written" historical events, it is more difficult to do this without ancient dna

I understand the issue with a minor haplogroup existing let's say in Bulgaria but for whatever reason is extinct in Serbs even though hypothetically they brought it to Bulgaria 1000 years ago etc. However, these cases are quite rare and usually means the extinct y dna wasn't a major carrier of the tribe/group in the first place

The problem with relying on diversity in haplogroups is many people died, there have been many wars before guns existed - a lot of men that died didn't have the chance to pass on their y dna so them being important for a few years is not enough in providing the tribe/country with a long term identity and culture and continuous man power

Illyri
06-01-21, 22:47
Yes, I don't have enough data (from different regions of balkans) on subclades to make better statements

You can look at yfull to have an (uncomplete) idea of the subclades today present in the diferent countrees. If you have an account with FTDNA, you can get there similar information consulting their public haplotree. And you can also look at the various DNA projects there. But I aslo wish we had a more complete and detailed picture regarding haplogroups.

Ancestors not being successful in passing their y dna is the natural flow of life, it means they were less important in defending the culture, language and identity of their people long term

I disagree. Today's frequency has not much to do with defending culture, language and identity. In the past, this often meant war in the Balkans and those who fought for culture and identity had more chances to die on the battlefield and leave no/less descendants. To the contrary, one could argue that those who did not fight had more chances to increase the frequency of their haplogroup. Besides, sicknesses and famines - which could bring many lineages to exctinction - have nothing to do with the strive for culture, language and identity.

This is why for me, frequency is more important than diversity when it comes to identifying a group to a tribe/culture/country especially in the middle ages because general culture was different to what it is now

I am not convinced. Today's frequences are not those prevailing 10/15 centuries ago. In addition, I think that to try associating haplogroups and ancient tribes/cultures, it is necessary to include in the analysis diversity, distribution, forming age and TMRCA.

If south slavs have majority ph908 then that is the most important reason for them settling the region and holding it down - at least initially before guns became a thing. You say they lost other y dna along the way, that is great but we need proof of that with ancient dna. What we know for sure is ph908 is the major one they passed further down into balkans all the way to Greece. I am here talking about which y dna has been passed onto where and linking it to potential "written" historical events, it is more difficult to do this without ancient dna

For this to hold, the TMRCA needs be consistent with the settlement of the South Slavs in the Balkans. I do not think that a few hundreds ore even thousand men are the most important reason for the success of the massive migration of the Slavs to the Balkans, unless you assume - like some do - that the region was totally depopulated at the time of their settlement. I am conviced that they lost lineages along the way. It is not unlikely and it would make sense during a period of 15 centuries. There is no reason why ancient tribes should not have a certain diversity among themselves. I agree with you that ancient DNA would be very helpful four our discussions. Hopefully, we will see soon Bronze age, Iron age and antiquity samples from Albania.

I understand the issue with a minor haplogroup existing let's say in Bulgaria but for whatever reason is extinct in Serbs even though hypothetically they brought it to Bulgaria 1000 years ago etc. However, these cases are quite rare and usually means the extinct y dna wasn't a major carrier of the tribe/group in the first place

Do you have knowledge of any migration of the Serbs in Bulgaria ? I do not pretend to be an expert, but there were several tribes among South Slavs migrating to the Balkans (not only Serbs) and they did necessarily have the same composition. After their settlement, they founded distinct kingdoms.

As for exctinction, it can be due to many factors as I wrote above and the fact that a haplogroup's frequency is now tiny, does not mean that it was not more important 1000 years ago. If you have a doubt, look at the neolithic/early farmers lineages and at their current frequencies in the Balkans.

The problem with relying on diversity in haplogroups is many people died, there have been many wars before guns existed - a lot of men that died didn't have the chance to pass on their y dna so them being important for a few years is not enough in providing the tribe/country with a long term identity and culture and continuous man power

Unfortunately, you face the same problem with frequency (which increases after a bottleneck as diversity decreases). I think that frequency is a only reliable indicator of the present situation and says nothing about the situation prior to the bottleneck event. It is speculation to some extent but it still makes sense that a haplogroup has more chances to present higher diversity in the region where its carriers have lived longer and multiplied.

In short, one needs to look at both diversity and frequency at least in my opinon.

TaktikatEMalet
12-01-21, 14:34
@illyri
I agree with most of your points however,

You mention that many died so couldn't pass on their y dna but others were luckier without maybe not doing much. This is not relevant because those who died cannot spread their offspring, culture and language to the new land because as you know, they died.

Anyway, it tends to be commanders who do not die so like I said the invaders who died were not quite as important. Not to mention that you win a war/region with your survivors as those who have died cannot take your people forward even though they would have been very important during the invasion period. It is those that survived that will continue to have kids and pass on the culture/language to the region.

Not all contact between 2 tribes/groups involved conflict, sometimes there was a mutual friendlier agreement - a coming together and of course immigration is also a thing especially in big empires across massive lands. The locals may be unwelcoming to the idea but sometimes they had to accept it. The amount of kids immigrants had usually depended on how they were received by locals. Over time this would have become less of an issue as they learned the language and adapted to the culture.

And yes Bulgaria has plenty of south Slavic input and they speak a south Slavic language.