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Angela
20-12-19, 17:48
We've discussed this before, but there doesn't seem to be a good answer. Undoubtedly, they must have some genes for height, but this distance from the rest of Europe is really recent, so it can't be attributed just to good nutrition in the Modern Era. The "growth spurt" really began in the 50's and accelerated in the 80's.

I know they consume a lot of dairy, but so do the Irish and they're not at all as tall. Was some additive put into the milk around that time, perhaps growth hormones in the feed given to the cattle? Or perhaps that's when they started adding calcium supplement to the milk. So many people believe incorrectly that milk naturally contains a lot of calcium. Or are the cattle a different breed perhaps?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-are-the-dutch-so-tall_b_5544085?guccounter=2

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2014-06-30-111historicalmedianmaleheight.png

I never gave my children milk to drink. That wasn't only a cultural decision, although that was a big part of it. I also knew they put a lot of hormones in food for cows, and it was speculated that's why menarche began so early, among other reasons. They ate enough cheese that they weren't "deprived" of dairy. I didn't see any need to add to it.

spruithean
21-12-19, 16:17
My mother's side is Dutch and most of all my maternal relatives are tall (tallest relative is 6'8"). I'm not entirely sure what caused the increase in height, but there is likely a combination of genetic factors, environmental/epigenetic and just higher quality nutrition post-WWII.

bigsnake49
22-12-19, 16:57
Better nutrition as in more animal protein in the diet could explain the upward height growth of the Dutch. Plenty of cheese and meat in the Dutch diet.

MOESAN
22-12-19, 19:19
- Has the Dutch diet changed so much these last years?
- The graphic shows curious changes in USA and Sweden, that cannot be due uniquely to chnages in diet or selection
- How are made these states? By medical services: they don't distinguish between "autochtones" and post-migrants, maybe?: the origin of migrants has changed in the USA since last war. Sweden has begun to knew new influx of foreigners too, rather of 'europoid' origin spite not homogenous for provenance; Dutch people show also some degree of crossings, sometimes with 'east-asian'like people but more often with SSA people (by origin at least): crossings could play some role?
All this comes to complicate things and to mask the lone effects of diet and lifestyle, without speaking of genes.

Angela
22-12-19, 20:19
- Has the Dutch diet changed so much these last years?
- The graphic shows curious changes in USA and Sweden, that cannot be due uniquely to chnages in diet or selection
- How are made these states? By medical services: they don't distinguish between "autochtones" and post-migrants, maybe?: the origin of migrants has changed in the USA since last war. Sweden has begun to knew new influx of foreigners too, rather of 'europoid' origin spite not homogenous for provenance; Dutch people show also some degree of crossings, sometimes with 'east-asian'like people but more often with SSA people (by origin at least): crossings could play some role?
All this comes to complicate things and to mask the lone effects of diet and lifestyle, without speaking of genes.

The point is that it really only climbed starting around 1980, so it's not just good nutrition. I doubt it changed all that much from, say, the 50s to the 80s. That's why I asked if, around that time, hormones or other supplements were added to the cattle feed or to the dairy products themselves.

For the U.S. the influx of Hispanics, East Asians, South Asians, has definitely lowered the average height. Statistics for the U.S. should always be done by ethnicity.

MOESAN
28-12-19, 14:03
It's true I suspect heavily these new ways to produce cattle and meat as a whole (hormones and Co...).
It could be interesting knowing if physical activity has changed a lot there since the 80's too... Just a track... maybe a no-exit way here, just a try.

lynxbythetv
29-12-19, 07:34
perhaps our belief that certain populations were small is just a snapshot during that period. infact i suspect the reason the dutch are so tall largely goes back to ancient clan leaders taking all the women, sort of like eugenics.

the belgae that the romans faced were a dutch like ethnic group. it was mentioned they were large by caesar.

on one of these anthroboards i did read a post by a greek woman who claimed that the reason why greeks are quite tall is because of the importation of dutch cattle because prior they were quite short.

i suspect haplogroup G and E are the reason why some ethnic groups are quite short.


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lynxbythetv
29-12-19, 07:38
sardinians (G) are small and albanians who exhibit more E are also small. for example youtube "hellbanianz".

spain might paternally be R1B but maternally they are G and E hence short.

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MOESAN
29-12-19, 15:25
good mix of approximations, isn't it?
Belgae were a bit higher statured than Gauls, not so much, as the whole it seems they were shorter than Germanics.
Albanians are not small at all, Ghegs evenless, these last ones rather tall!!!
In ancient times, it was clear that Southern Dutch people were smaller than Northern Dutch people.
I read so much and so often wrong statements about people aspect(s), at means or at individual levels: it become tiring.
It would be good to certain people to read more and over everything to open their own eyes. No offense to anybody.
concerning Y-haplo's, it would ne necessary to know the original pop (if any) where these haplos appeared first, before the numerous partial or complete mixings that human pops underwent. Not easy I think. As often said here by sensitive people, it's long ago that Y-haplo's are disconnected from total auDNA in the most of cases.

Regio X
30-12-19, 00:13
i suspect haplogroup G and E are the reason why some ethnic groups are quite short.

sardinians (G) are small and albanians who exhibit more E are also small. for example youtube "hellbanianz".
spain might paternally be R1B but maternally they are G and E hence short.Well, apart the fact people tend to be a bit shorter in more isolated islands, G frequency in Sardinia is not that high: less than 15%. Most of Sardinians belong actually to I2a1. Ironically, I2a1 is also the most frequent haplogroup among the tallest people in the world. The same way, the women in the related places are short and tall, respectivelly, and as you know they don't have a Y chromosome.
Indeed, NE Italy has a similar G-M201 frequency according to 23andMe, possibly based on its own data: 12%. And, oppositely, NE Italians would be among the tallest in Italy, so...
Now, if you're referring to Autosomal, particularly I don't see a great correlation between EEF % and height in Europe as a whole.

lynxbythetv
09-01-20, 10:57
Well, apart the fact people tend to be a bit shorter in more isolated islands, G frequency in Sardinia is not that high: less than 15%. Most of Sardinians belong actually to I2a1. Ironically, I2a1 is also the most frequent haplogroup among the tallest people in the world. The same way, the women in the related places are short and tall, respectivelly, and as you know they don't have a Y chromosome.
Indeed, NE Italy has a similar G-M201 frequency according to 23andMe, possibly based on its own data: 12%. And, oppositely, NE Italians would be among the tallest in Italy, so...
Now, if you're referring to Autosomal, particularly I don't see a great correlation between EEF % and height in Europe as a whole.

you are correct. somewhere i must of read sardinia was majority G. the L in taller regions might not be paired up with E. for example croatians are L and R1A yet is the female side all L or is it R1B, J2 and L. whats the female lineage in sardinia.

North East italians have higher frequencies of R1B and J2..the female line is J2 whereas the female line further south might have a higher frequency of E, hence shorter.






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