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Aspurg
05-01-20, 01:57
I'd rather open my own topic rather than post in another one!



accuser: Aspurg, maternally paternal descendant of commanders of the fortress Hodidid, claimant of direct paternal descent from Greater Cumania, autonomous entity of the Kingdom of Hungary, modern day Hungary.

Oh it seems I am not descended of Hodidjed fort commander. There is a family from Sarajevo with same surname as my maternal family who are but it seems there were 4 separate families with the same surname from Sarajevo 200 years ago who cannot be linked, and surname is based on Ottoman state monopoly of coffee productions which was given to some people for a year or much more. These 4 families are from 4 separate mahallas (quarters) and it is very unlikely a single family can hold onto such lucrative monopoly.

Anyway even if I am not related to that branch still my grandfathers branch were designated in 1781. as kişizade, which means "noble". Only 5 families of Bosnia had this designation. One tested is Spanish I-M26, descended of Spanish muslims. Another from Mostar, historians use this surname to suggest Turkish origin. Another kişizade from Sarajevo are most likely descended from Hungary. Not 100 % but ancestor might be related to a Janissary unit which was stationed at the same place in 1680 from where the other family comes from probably (North of Budapest). I talked to a cousin, to get him tested.

My grandfathers mother is descended from another Sarajevo family which descends of muslims from Sanjak of Pakrac (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjak_of_Pakrac). Again like many they arrived in late 17th century.

Grandmothers family Zavidovici, mid 19th century, some Turkish origin claims, but that village seems to have been composed of locals 400 years ago. But this claim relates to 200 years ago, probably local but have to test.

Grandmothers mother family, moved to Sarajevo from Donji Vakuf century ago. Ancestor 200 years ago mentioned with a surname indicating certain origin from muslims of Timișoara/Temesvar. Certainly arrived from Timișoara after 1716. when the Ottomans lost it. My mtdna I1a1a is from here.

I have lots of foreign ancestry, even unusual for Bosniaks.

So I have more motivation now to ensure my paternal ancestry is also foreign!
Finally my clade is isolated https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A24066/

Unexpectedly I got a Bosniak from Central Bosnia there. Among over 1000 tested Serbs from Bosnia I don't have a single member of my clade, and very unlikely I will. There is another Bosniak from NE Bosnia of my clade but he is descended of my family so surely about 500 years at best from me. And he came from Peshter area.

We'll see how many novels he has, my 14 novels make up 2200 ybp, on YFull they only count novels of best quality. Still we share 12 of best quality.
Bosniaks from Central Bosnia have more native ancestry than Serbs or even Croats, very low Vlach, and Albanian sporadic. It could be some old Illyrian connection but:

Bosniaks from Central Bosnia also have had strong Hungarian influence since Medieval Bosnia, and some migration of muslims from Hungarian areas post Battle of Wiena in 1683. I have such ancestry myself.

Who seems closest to YF67778? There is one study sample:
Bosniak____14 24 14 10 16-18 11 12 13 13 11 29 17 14 20 12 17 11 22
RU281 Cluj_14 24 13 10 16-18 11 12 13 13 11 29 18 14 20 12 18 11 22

So GD=3/19 but they share dys393=14 which is very rare for V13. Karcag family has ordered BigY700, I used to think he may be related to RU281 GD=4/19 dys456=18, but Bosniak has a better case, he also has elevated dys458. If that's true then RU281 and Györfi from Karcag despite being in that region are pretty distant.

In a village where Bosniak is from in 1604. there were people named Gaspar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A1sp%C3%A1r), Galin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A1l), land called Shargan (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/s%C3%A1rk%C3%A1ny).

Also in Central Bosnia there are finds of proto-Magyar N-M2019, and also some Bosniak R-Z326 (which exists in Hungary I can say based on STR's), G-PH1780 (from Hungary where it is found or Anatolia).

So there are already some certain and potential links.

Karcag cousin told me they are of certain Cuman origin. In fact there is another family with same/similar surname, I was told this family is not Cuman.

I've found one of my subcluster dys385b=17 in Vojvodina study. Vojvodina Serbs are descended of Krajina Serbs or Raska Serbs mostly, in first my cousins don't exist, among second there is my cluster but this guy must be 1000 years away, he is not of my family. He looks similar to some Serbian/Bulgarian border region people. As that study had many non-Serbs, Hungarians, Romanians, Roma, this guy might easily be a Hungarian or Banat Romanian (very undertested area).

All that I want is to find a single member of my cluster dys385b=17 in Kunsag. And that would be it. Usually when you probe a population, more common haplotypes pop out, so if the first and only tested from Karcag was my cousin there should be more.. Especially as in the Balkans this cluster is found in some places suggesting Cumano-Pecheneg links..

Trojet
05-01-20, 02:45
We'll see how many novels he has, my 14 novels make up 2200 ybp, on YFull they only count novels of best quality. Still we share 12 of best quality.

No, in addition to Best Quality, they include Acceptable Quality Novels as well. The main criteria is the coordinates of SNPs must fall within the "combBED regions". Not every SNP falls within these regions, however, it doesn't mean they're bad SNPs, they just don't qualify for the Age Estimation formula. You can actually see on YFull if a particular SNP falls within these regions if you search for it and click for more info. See here for a detailed explanation: https://www.yfull.com/faq/what-yfulls-age-estimation-methodology/

I've noticed that your line is overestimating the TMRCA as compared to other samples. For example the average E-Z17107 TMRCA is ~2700 ybp, while your line has it at ~4200 ybp. So I would think the TMRCA of E-A24066 is currently being overestimated as well. It will probably be lowered once the new sample's (YF67778) age estimation is calculated into the TMRCA.

Aspurg
05-01-20, 04:42
My family are from Bijelo Polje, modern Rakonje (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakonje). Attested ancestor died in 1645. from about there. This village is attested in at least two Ottoman defters as "Rakun/Rakon" in 1485. and 1530. But nobody lived there back then. The original name of this village was Spocha or something similar, then in 1485. it received a second new name, these seconds names are always associated with some clan that is taking over.


So where were they? Some made up tradition of Kuchi area descent exists in my family, but it was never to be taken seriously, because it makes no sense for a wealthy family to be some poor people running away for their lives from Kuchi, besides my family is attested pre-battle of Wiena (again you see this event having influence), as only after then these Brda Montenegrin clans started arriving.


Genetics gives clues. There are two families E-A24066+ from central Serbia, but who surely migrated to there from Peshter highlands. One is Dragovic came from Boroštica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boro%C5%A1tica)village 200 years ago, other came from Raždaginja (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C5%BEdaginja)village on Peshter at the same time, third just "Peshter". Unique surnames of the 2nd and 3rd clearly suggest links with the hill Trojan next to Krnja Jela (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krnja_Jela), and deserted village Čarovina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Carovina), next to and belonging to village Baljen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baljen)in 16th century.


So my E-A24066+ is related to multiple places on Peshter, all of these villages are today and have been since 200 or more years Bosniak, more precisely mostly they have been Kelmendi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelmendi_(tribe)), who arrived there in early 18th century as Catholics, later converted to Islam.


But what was there before?
In Ottoman Sipahi defter of 1526. for the battle of Mohacs, among sipahis who were supposed to stay in Sancak of Bosnia (this area belong to Bosnian sandzak), there was a group of Christian sipahis. There were no less than ten timar holders from the nahiya of Barče to the North.
knez Ognan, his timar village Brvenica, second name Zaječić (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaje%C4%8Di%C4%87e).
knez Radoslav, timar village Korutan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan%C4%8Da)
knez Dimitri, timar village Balenova , original name of modern village Baljen in 16th c.


and above them
Hasan Çelebi son of Ahmed-bey silahdar, timar village Krće (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kr%C4%87e)


This small piece of information above explains my ancestry.


1) Knez Ognan was a commander of voynuks from Sjenica area in 1530. His community later settled village Lopiže. In this village there is one distant branch of my own family. The original village belonging to Ognan - Zaječić was taken over by Hasan Çelebi, and when you consider that his village Krće is right next to Zaječić it is obvious these people are connected.
2) Korutan was a village with vojnuk community and village along with Janča whose part it is today this was the base of the father of Hasan Çelebi, Ahmed-bey
3) Baljen the village of 3rd person from the list had an old land called Ahmed in 1571., almost certainly referring to this Ahmed-bey, his son was superior to a Christian sipahi..


Ahmed-bey and Hasan had connections to only this group of Peshter voynuks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynuks)not any other! As is the case with other communities in Ottoman census the mere fact that these come in succession means they are likely tribally connected. Another village where Hasan celebi got some lands is Raždaginja, from where one family related to me came from. His son Mehmed was sipahi who held Krnja Jela village too!! So they could have moved from Krnja Jela/Baljen area to Raždaginja at that time. And this was the general trend to leave Eastern Peshter for Western Peshter because voynuk organisation was flourishing on the Western Peshter highlands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pe%C5%A1ter), and it died out on the Eastern Peshter already in mid-16th century.


The knez Ognan community from Zaječiće is the only community where a similar last name to mine is attested, "Rajkun/Rajkon" in late 16th c. Also in 1485. Zaječiće did not exist which means these people came to there from somewhere, clearly either from Korutan or Baljen direction, their co-tribalists. Korutan voynuks seem not to have left some descendants, and I couldn't find any old families there either.
A24066 is connected to Baljen.
A24066 is also connected to Krnja Jela which was a voynuk village before already in 1485.


So logically we should expect A24066 in knez Ognan's community because of one branch of my family there and because of "Rajkun" there only in this community, and because this community has tribal ties with community with certain A24066 connection as explained above.


Village Rakonje was not settled in 1530. but was settled in late 16th or early 17th century by my ancestors. So these 3 communities were working for Hasan Çelebi son of Ahmed-Bey.


Who is Ahmed-Bey? Ahmed-Bey is the person whos property is Rakonje in 1485.


Ahmed-Bey was şahinci (https://tr.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C5%9Fahinci)(the one who trains the falcons) on the Court of Sultan Mehmed Fatih (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmed_the_Conqueror), sometimes prior to 1463. when he is first attested. He then became the silahdar of Isa-bey Ishaković or Sultan Mehmed. In 1467-68 he became the kapıcıbaşı (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kap%C4%B1c%C4%B1ba%C5%9F%C4%B1)of the Sultan Mehmed.
In 1468/69 he came to Bosnian sanjak and was given a large timar with total worth of 48.527 akçe, in two areas near Novi Pazar with his base being in Korutan/Janča, and Peshter, and in the southern area where he held the nahiye Nikšići (https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=49749), and nearby my village. A very powerful Ottoman figure, maybe only second to Isa-Bey Ishaković in Bosnian sanjak because Sultan's kapıcıbaşı is a very powerful position, often meaning some people are getting executed if he is coming, and he came to the area in 1468 with this title.


This was Ottoman area and an idea that some Christian raya people or even any Muslims could settle on the property of a Commander of the palace guards of Mehmed the Conqeueror is ludicrous, at that time this position was only one at the time in the Ottoman empire. It could only have been somebody who has connections to him and his family. And the only group they really had some ties with are these voynuks where there are already clear E-A24066 associations.


But as explained above Peshter group descends from the Krnja Jela, Baljen region of Peshter. There
1) Krnja Jela , 1571. baština/land called Kuman , the only such baština name I found in at least hundred mile radius.
2) Baljen or earlier Balenova looks quite possibly related to Cuman personal name Balin or Cuman city Balin
3) between these there is village Točilovo, in 1571. a Christian had a name "Togan" or "Tugan" (in Ottoman script o/u cannot be distinguished), in Turkish Dogan is more common form of "hawk", "t" is more Kipchak.


So when he came to Peshter Ahmed-bey kapicibasha hired some voynuks from this area. Possibly then came influence of my clan with this second name Rakon in 1485. So it seems because of this name my clan had some connection to this village even before we settled there later.
However this area was divided between multiple Ottoman Sanjaks.
Pešter was divided between Bosnian Sanjak in the West, and Prizren Sanjak in the East. Originally there were many voynuks in the Eastern Peshter, and few in Western. The situation was reversed few decades after. It seems voynuk organization could not survive in Prizren Sanjak, but it could in Bosnian sandjak where it flourished. So that is why this migration of community of knez Ognan occured, originally from Baljen/Krnja Jela area (Prizren sanjak) they moved to Zaječiće and then later to Lopiže under direction of Ahmed-bey's son. There they would keep this status at least until 1604. and certainly until Cretan War in 1645. and even until Battle of Wiena in 1683 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna).


Then in the chaos these Christian sipahi and voynuk communities who had some autonomy and served the Ottomans dissapeared. And some of my family got this made up Kuchi tradition, because Kuchi tribe people started coming in in large numbers. Both Christian and Muslim, and there are so many families of Kuchi cluster in the area. Also many PH908 families had even more elaborate Kuchi traditions, Kuchi and other Brda clans offered protection in 18th, 19th centuries, they would take revenge for their tribesmen etc.

None of the families related to me from Peshter had any Kuchi tradition, and neither did some of my family branches. If this tradition had any reliability it would have recorded genetic links with these people, and it would have recorded a member of our family who was wealthy in the first half of 17th century but it didn't.

This is only from some published documents, there are more unpublished, and as I can read them, I will find eventually my ancestor and his ancestors. Another thing: our ancestor had a name Paun, this name is usually associated with Romanian language, it did exist sporadically in these areas, but at one point in time namely late 16th century when this person was likely born for some reason this personal name became very common on Peshter!! And sporadic elsewhere, little more common in some Vlach areas (Barče), rare generally. So his personal name itself actually indicates that he was born on Peshter!!


Lejlek mosque in Novi Pazar (https://www.beautifulmosque.com/Lejlek-Mosque-in-Novi-Pazar-Serbia) is the oldest mosque there and it was built by Ahmed-Bey silahdar. He is basically one of founders of Novi Pazar.
Most likely this Turkish family left no living descendants, but I've identified 20 individuals related to him in 16th/17th century.


Some people with whom he had close contacts were Sanjakbey's of Zvornik Sandjak. Because E-A24066 can be connected to him, quite possibly presence of (again should be Bosniak) E-A24066 that is close to my family in Tuzla Canton can be explained through his family's contact with some Zvornik Sanjakbey's. At that time Zvornik Sandjak was a separate Sanjak and it occupied precisely the Tuzla/Zvornik area.

Aspurg
05-01-20, 05:38
No, in addition to Best Quality, they include Acceptable Quality Novels as well. The main criteria is the coordinates of SNPs must fall within the "combBED regions". Not every SNP falls within these regions, however, it doesn't mean they're bad SNPs, they just don't qualify for the Age Estimation formula. You can actually see on YFull if a particular SNP falls within these regions if you search for it and click for more info. See here for a detailed explanation: https://www.yfull.com/faq/what-yfulls-age-estimation-methodology/

I've noticed that your line is overestimating the TMRCA as compared to other samples. For example the average E-Z17107 TMRCA is ~2700 ybp, while your line has it at ~4200 ybp. So I would think the TMRCA of E-A24066 is currently being overestimated as well. It will probably be lowered once the new sample's (YF67778) age estimation is calculated into the TMRCA.

Ah I see,thanks! I know I have about 14 or 15 of best quality and 4 of acceptable quality, and looking at other clades I came to impression that they don't count in TMRCA calculation SNP's of acceptable quality but that didn't add up fully. So that is the key.

Well I saw immediately that I share with YF67778 14 SNP's and I have 18 of my private ones. So I figured TMRCA of 1700 ybp is more realistic. We are 21/111 so not close and it seems our clade mutates more, as indeed I contribute 4200 years to the age of Z17107, far more than the others. I was looking at some of his and mine unique STR's past those that we share and it seems per 111 STR's that I have more of these unique STR's, so I guess he should have less novels, but ofc there are these days far more STR's.

But the YFull formula is such that it only counts novels, so if one happens to have many novels these novels are going to make up TMRCA regardless of how many are shared! That is why it is important that a clade is differentiated, that it has several levels. So when I saw my 18 SNP's I still figured if I counted all of them our TMRCA (my contribution) would reach 2700 ybp which is silly. You can't have 18 SNP's at 150 years/SNP and then 21 year/SNP within the same clade.

So getting more samples and levels matters, you see above under E-Y81971, E-A19238 share 5 SNP's at their level, their 1 novel makes up their TMRCA, but YF16494 only has 2 novels parallel to A19238, this time their 4 and 5 SNP's are counted for Y81971's TMRCA, YF16494 lowered the TMRCA. This system has flaws and more sub-branches help.


Me and YF67778 share DYS510=18 + DYS446=11
Me and E5882 share DYS587=19
YF67778 and E5882 share DYS525=11

It seems E5882 will be above me and YF67778 as we share two of these slow STR's. Also I've noticed we have off-modals at DYS650 but we don't share it. Modal is 21, E5882 has 20, YF67778 has 19, I have "18.a". Probably this STR represents another of our shared SNP's.

Also what should be noted is that per current evidence:
E-Z17107>Y81971 GATAH4=11
E-Z17107>Y30991 GATAH4=12 (I have 11 but this one is recent)
E-Z17107>Y30991>Z38456>BY4435 GATAH4=12
E-Z17107>Y30991>Z38456>BY4461 GATAH4=12

It seems GATAH4=12 defines Y30991. Russian E-Z17107>BY4467 has H4=11, no reading on Y30991. Ukrainian 116695 and their cluster all have H4=12 so it seems chances are Ukrainian is Y30991+, Z38456- going by current data. This SNP cannot be tested at FTDNA, FTDNA's SNP offer is horrible.

There is a new Ossetian E-S26015* clade, negative to main 5 except E-BY20093 and he is very distant to them, probably negative as well ( I suggested they test it). He doesn't seem close to anyone, closest is one Russian, ofc I thought he might be Z17107 due to his H4=12. That's what I wanted to see, some new CTS9320's far to the East. Tested some Caucasians for Z17107, but SNP pack costs only as much as 3 SNP's. Single SNP is abit expensive at FTDNA.. I thought one Georgian at 111 STR's was a match for American Z17107, Z38456 clade, and he looked good but he must be some other CTS9320.

Aspurg
27-01-20, 22:21
Well there is a mountain called Žilindar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BDilindar), situated at the Serbian-Montenegrin border. Around this mountain there is a concentration of Bulgarian toponyms: immediately South there was a village called Dragulin, to the NW Boljare, Peshter, and Boroshtitsa itself from where a cousin little more distant to me is from. Also mentioned Raždaginja, these sport typical Bulgarian zhd, sht instead of Serbian đ (dj) and ć (ch) forms. You'd think looking at these villages that you are in Bulgaria.
My close genetic relatives have direct genetic ties with some of these villages, and in the case of two families from Raždaginja, as I've said their unique surnames clearly point in direction of Cuman traces.

Highest peak (1616 m) is also called Žilindar, a neighboring peak is called Zmijina Glava - Snake's head. How come nobody has ever noticed that jılandar/жыландар (pronounced. zhılandar) is also a snake - in Kazakh and Kyrghyz!!
It is basically phonetically identical. Consonants are identical, vowels are very similar (жыландар - Жилиндар). Turkic languages follow wovel harmony and no "i" can be paired with "a" in a word, rather in this instance only "ı" can. This vowel would be converted into "i".

There is literally no other explanation, and y -> zh phonetic change is typical for Kipchak languages, this cannot derive from Turkish, especially with the "dar" added, Turkish is yılan.

There was a Cuman population from Bulgaria around there, and obviously the only possible such parallel is the 1253./1254. Bulgarian-Cuman raid of the area when they pillaged the St. Peter's monastery. It seems they escaped to Peshter, or as Serbs were generally losers in that war, and where Hungarian king was the arbiter maybe they were forced to accept some foreign population there.
Of course other than E-A24066, nothing else exists there that also exists in Bulgaria and Cumania.

Look forward to some Second Bulgarian Empire results, I think there is at least 40 % chance Asen, Shishmans or Terters were E-A24066.

I need to find these cousins from Bulgaria which do exist (Karachanak et al etc), and I have a pretty good idea where to search..

I was looking to utilize my cousin from Boroštica village on Southern Peshter, and Boroštica is pretty close to Žilindar. So that's where we started expanding from. :cool-v:

Johane Derite
28-01-20, 02:07
Your own family has a tradition of Kuqi which occams razor points to as being true. Peshter is known as a having a large Albanian minority.

These other folk etymologies are much more convoluted and don't have much probability of being true.

Aspurg
28-01-20, 02:58
Your own family has a tradition of Kuqi which occams razor points to as being true. Peshter is known as a having a large Albanian minority.

Do not play troll games with me here Johane, this is my thread and any off-topic will be acted upon. I have explained already that my clan are:
1. Not genetically related to Kuqi
2. Our presence in Lim area predates any Kuqi migration (after Wiena War)
3. Our family was wealthy (laughable to have wealthy family as some runaway people from other places)
4. Something like 10 different haplogroups in the area have this "Kuqi tradition", it was made up in 18th or 19th century as Kuqi were powerful tribe at the time, and they offered some protection.

5. Trojančević (now its public result so I may comment) E-A24066 Raždaginja, hill Trojan next to Krnja Jela with a land Cuman, no Kuqi tradition
6. Čarović (related to the guz above) E-A24066 Raždaginja, Čarovina next to Cuman Baljen, no Kuqi tradition
7. Dragovic E-A24066 Boroshtica, near Žilindar, no Kuqi tradition , closest to him seems a North Macedonian, likely from Kumanovo area (because he is close to some others in the area) Literally every time this cluster is found on Peshter with these Bulgarian traces.

Lutovac for example just counted as as old population. So Kuqi tradition was clearly without any doubt unfortunately made up. Unfortunately I say, because from my POV my ancestry is 10 times better than that of Kuqi or any other katunar. I admit some of us (not all, some branches did not have Kuqi tradition) completely lost our way, making up this tradition while not remembering our notable ancestor from 400 years ago..

Plus we have some other cousin not in our cluster bit to the North. But around there we see some traces like Shishman too..




These other folk etymologies are much more convoluted and don't have much probability of being true.


This forum is full of your topics where you babble about etymologies of Illyroillyroillyriiiaaan, posing as some linguistically "smart" dude while not having a clue about linguistics.

If you have a problem with one of my etymologies then rationally counter it.

Btw. I can easily demolish some of your linguistic points about Illyrian - Albanian "parallels". So don't troll.


You like many Albanians have a problem. The problem I see in so many peoples. The victim cult. We wuz there beforee, the Slavs came and did bad things to us. Serbs also. We wuz here before Alboz, Alboz are Bessi who came to our land and opressed us, but Slavs were there before.

That is your cult of the Prey.

But I follow the cult of the Hunter.

Cumans were hunters, hunting for the prey, and I have the honor of being descended of these Hunters. Not of Kuqi or other katunars or Slavic turfs. They are below my league.


E-A24066 is found in
Žilindar - Kipchak Snake
Pečenjevce
Karcag


As I've said in another thread 10 years of being Cuman or Pecheneg is above 100 years of being an average Serb, Croat, Bosniak etc. (I rate some Albanian clans higher though). And by the evidence my ancestors were Cumans in 13th, 12th century, and Pechenegs in at least 11th, possibly 10th.

P.S. Yes there are Albanian traces on Peshter. But if not for the chaos in the Ottoman empire after 1683. when my clan lost power, my clan would not have allowed any Kuqi, Vasojevici, etc. nor any Albanian Kelmendi to settle there.

Peshter is Bulgarian for a cave, not Pećina like in Serbo-Croatian, and that land belonged to nobility of Cuman-Bulgarian roots since late Medieval.

So Peshter was Bulgaro-Cuman long before becoming Albanian.:grin:

Aspurg
28-01-20, 03:09
These other folk etymologies are much more convoluted and don't have much probability of being true.

Btw. umm, they are all either likely or certainly true. Unlike bunch of your ridiculous "Illyrian-Albanian parallels" that have been debunked long time ago.:laughing::laughing:

Btw. you might be in numbers around here and well Eupedia is mostly Italian (its ok Italians and Albanians are good friends) so you have some protection here even when you blatantly troll I guess. But lets meet on a place such as Anthrogenica or Apricity.. Please.. I don't have a lot of weight here (nor I have some desire to have it) but I might have much more weight elsewhere..:smile:

I understand your frustration. Vast majority of E-V13 got owned by the Pripyat folks. My folk were hunting these people. If I were almost any other clade of V13 I'd be pissed off too (there are notable exceptions ofc)..

I know you like to troll Serbs about having these or those roots but there is very little of a Serb in me.. I simply like savage nomads more than I like any other people so now wonder I am in this game, If I were PH908 I wouldn't like it. I wouldn't be pissed off if I were some R-Z2705 etc. And this is just the beginning, proving the Cuman-Pecheneg origin, the harder part is making sure that they exist again, otherwise nothing of this makes any sense really..

There is nothing to be said here it is mathematically nearly impossible for a cluster to be found at Kuman-Žilindar - Pečenjevce - Karcag, (with last claiming to be of certain Cuman origin) and NOT be Cumano-Pecheneg.

What needs to be done is test more people from certain areas, just one member of my cluster (385b=17) found in Karcag would prove this connection 100 %.

Aspurg
06-03-20, 01:00
As expected Bosniak had less novels so now the TRMCA is more realistic 1800 ybp.

A new Hungarian Y30991+, Z38456- from Temes area (Timisoara) with BigY! And he doesn't seem A24066 thus far. Maybe he ends up sharing an SNP with us but he is very distant. He shares with A24066 dys510=18, though a Hungarian A24066 whose result should be up there soon has 16 (modal is 17). He too has H4=12 so if this Russian Z17107 is negative for Y30991 then the Ukrainian is Y30991+ and H4=12 defines Y30991. Hopefully I can get these new Hungarian Y30991 BigY's on YFull as well.

So not only Z17107 but also Y30911 has more diversity North of Danube. A24066 is the one that occurs in both areas but it has a historical TMRCA so somebody migrated here, and with this result it seems very clear Balkan A24066 migrated.

There is no V13 clade found that seems more Dacian in dispersal than Z17107 as of now.

Aspurg
25-03-20, 03:19
@Johane Derite

Trolling to no avail :cool-v:, I knew right from the beginning when I saw I have relative in Cuman areas and having nomadic traces elsewhere where this cluster appears that my genetic cluster is not from the Balkan proper. And this new Hungarian does share 2 SNP's with my cluster: Y167028 and A24070! And of course BigY of Cumanian Hungarian who might share anywhere between 13-15+ SNP's should be done soon (and I'm sure more to be found).

There is a second Bosniak family of our cluster it seems they might be related to a medieval Bosnian family. On Y37 what defines Bosniak cluster is the same thing that is seen in Cluj sample from Basarab study (and especially 393 is very reliable STR), so like some other genetics from Hungary this one too came to Central Bosnia in Medieval times. This is what makes Bosniaks different from Croats and Serbs. Interestingly if indeed he is related to this family, this family had contact with Medieval Bosnian family whose names seem kinda Pecheneg or smt. like that. And other Hungarian genetics in central Bosnia is not ordinary but proto-Magyar and Iassic (Jaszsag), this one seems to have Cuman-Pecheneg link. It seems our cluster moved around in Medieval times, was some factor back then.

I bet actually those Ukrainian Z17107, Z38456 dys438=9 are Y30911+ and I wouldn't be surprised at all if they went back from our 11 to 9 (like one of our cluster did on other STR, it's very unusual to see within the same clade mutation on such a slow STR so sharing instability there might be a hint of a link) that is that they share something with us, but I need more STR's/BigY.

I think we likely are Costoboci, and I found one Costoboci archaeological location where there was mingling with the Huns in late 4th century so that might be something I was looking for. Many of those seem to have joined Slavs (like some clades found in Ruthenians, Ukrainian highlanders). I bet those areas (like Cluj) might be our point from where we started spreading (as we are not native anywhere else we are found), and immediately to the North there was Carpathain Kurgan culture (Costoboci, and some other tribes like Ansamenses - Ansamii at the Someș river) and some other basal Z17107's are found there and to the North, Lviv Lipitsa culture (again Costoboci).

Dema
25-03-20, 16:26
Clearly Albanian origin... : D

Progon
04-04-20, 05:06
Most of the subclades of: https://yfull.com/tree/E-Z17107/

are found in Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Albania.

Yet, somehow magically this subclade becomes the best candidate for Dacians.

Aspurg
04-04-20, 20:23
Most of the subclades of: https://yfull.com/tree/E-Z17107/

are found in Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Albania.

YFull tree is not the whole picture, it is missing the Russian Z17107>BY4467, Z38456- result, it is missing Western Ukrainian Z17107+, Z38456- result (likely no relation to Russian). I am trying to secure BigY of that Ukrainain group who is per current evidence likely Y30991+. It is missing the Swedish Z38456>BY4446 results.

Unfortunately for me other Hungarian turned out Z25461>BY4507 in cluster with an Irish. it seems some of his STR's converge with important STR's of my own clade but closer analysis of the new Hungarian A24070 shows the BY4507 Hungarian does not matches us there. No way I could have known this without new Hungarian result. And Z25461 is almost impossible to predict. He has only one distinct STR shared with the Irish and they are 30/111, but this is 6th Hungarian CTS9320 BigY/NGS. So no Cuman connection for me, there still might be a Pecheneg connection though. Because Pečenjevce (where I have relatives) was founded by them and they were mass settled precisely where my cousins seem to pop-up. Well to check that out is very simple. there are other Pecheneg villages in the area, and there are some Hungarians of that origin.. So we'll see. Cluj sample still will certainly cluster with the Bosnians. And in Vojvodina my cluster appear (likely 1000 years away from me). I'll try to get some info on that one. At least the ethnicity because they tested all ethnicities there, even Roma..
The way I distinguish my people from this convergent haplotype is through the subclusters I've identified, I represent one, Bosniak results (hopefully the other Bosniak will do BigY, I know this family will have 2nd but we need BigY from the more distant family) the another.. So he might converge with us on some of these but he cannot converge on additional STR's which define our subclusters. And likely some of his convergent STR's are not that old.

My clade might be some NW Illyrian or might be Triballian. It seems my cluster pops up alot more in Serbian-Bulgarian border area, and that is Triballian and Hungarian is a Daco-Mysian link in such case. Triballi and Dacians were related. Vlachs originate from the Shop, where a non-Slavic zone separated the speakers of Serbo-Croatian from the speakers of Bulgarian languages. That is why Slovenian language is closer to Serbian than Bulgarian.


Yet, somehow magically this subclade becomes the best candidate for Dacians.

All Z17107 Hungarians are East of Danube river. Dacians lived East of Danube. Pannonians lived West of Danube. No exceptions.. So Z17107 has to pop up in Pannonian areas of Hungary for a Pannonian connection. Ukrainian is from Lviv region where Costoboci lived (before some moved little bit to the South). And we know he has some relative in a scientific study of that place as well.

What I see is (like other Albanian E-V13's) is an Albanian E-V13 who wants to be Illyrian at all costs. Well I don't care about Illyrians or Thracians primarily, what I care is to ensure my haplogroup (CTS9320) is in good position against the other competitor haplogroups (including Slavic and Paleobalkan ones). Unlike other E-V13's who were a bit sedentary in Late BA/EIA CTS9320 were some more mobile people. I found already an Ossetian CTS9320* and some more Easterners who seem certain CTS9320 should be probed.

Btw there is a Szekely who is some E-Y161799 (needy BigY) and there is a Serb (of Romanian origin by surname it seems) who is distant from the other Z38456. If those end up being some basal Z38456 well you might be looking at the Carpi (or other Thracian) who brought the Albanian/Dacian language to Albania. Though we'll see where those people end up eventually.

Last book on Dacian reconstruction I have been reading explicitly claims that the Albanian is descended of Dacian. Not convinced they are correct myself but some links can be established, they choose to go for the Dacian link there.. We already know Albanian language can't possibly fit into a whole lot of Illyrian groups, certainly the Pannonian group. Few years ago some Austrian linguists went to Albania and they found out some "Baltoid" connections of Albanian. They got chased off for insulting Enver Hoxha's Illyrian theory and ofc "Baltoid" means Thraco-Dacian. Not saying Albanians have some "Dacoid" connections for that. Z38456 actually is one of the very few possible ones. Certainly the only one with some strong presence in Albanians. So I'd say any Dacian-Albanian connection will either flourish or die through the Z38456.

CTS9320 seems connected to the expansion of Gava culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A1va-Holigrady_culture) , and also some clades seem to be Eastern Hallstant adjacent to the West. Gava people were proto-Daco-Mysian. Gava people pushed into assimilated Noua culture people (Srubnaya so R1a Z93) , Noua is proto-Thracian. Proof? E-CTS9320* in Ossetians. We already have some Bulgarian Z93 clades that seem Srubnaya and not Bulgar/Turkic.

Parts of CTS9320 who were in Eastern Hallstat formed some Illyrian Pannonian tribes. Albanians are a people who have monopoly on R-Z2705 and most of J-L283, they most definitely don't on E-V13 and some of their V13 shows signs of being incomers.

I don't deny various V13 are Illyrian. For example most of Z16988 seem Illyrian/Illyro-Pannonian group. But the Ossetian E-CTS9320* clearly tells you this is no Western haplogroup.. These people bordered the Steppe..

Aspar
05-04-20, 14:32
@Aspurg

I remember you advocated Cuman and other Turkic heritage of your line.
Someone who is apparently very knowledgeable and enthusiastic like you should have picked up by now that your subclade has nothing to do with any Turkic people apart from the reason that with the Hallstatt expansion of CTS9320, the center of gravity for this particular SNP moved to the most eastern expansion of the Hallstatt culture, and for that reason there are some CTS9320* among the Ossetians or other subclades such as Z17107 in various Russians and Ukrainians whom most probably were dispersed with the highly mobile Scythians.
Furthermore, your remarks about various groups of ancient people as important or unimportant are very childish.
Nothing personal but most of us interested in this field should be very realistic with our expectations and draw the line between expectations and reality.
I for example would like to find more about my deeper ancestry no matter what it is originally after all. That wan't make me a better or a weaker person. Bumping self confidence out of some genetic results was never my intention and those who are afraid to not descend from a group whom they deem weak, unlikable etc. should not take a genetic test because it might effect their self confidence.

Furthermore you are: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y30991/ correct?

Both on the Block Tree and YFULL Tree it's very clear that this subclade have nothing to do with any Turks or other Steppe people but with the most eastern expansion of the Hallstatt culture thus it's no wonder that there is much diversity of CTS9320 in Hungary and it's neighborhood. Again, the Scythians, Cimmerians and other Steppe people who expanded west most probably dispersed many CTS9320 further east.

Also, we can't really say what the carriers of these subclades would have been, whether Dacians or Pannonians.
Y30991 looks pretty old in the West Balkans assuming the predictions of YFULL are correct. It's distribution is a Hallstatt influence on the region and dates to the EIA. Therefor, it's distribution looks Pannonian-Western Balkans.

Aspurg
05-04-20, 17:05
@Aspurg

I remember you advocated Cuman and other Turkic heritage of your line.

And I still will explore the Pecheneg option. I do have relatives in a (one of few) village founded and settled by them. And the "clan" in question is the most numerous family there and in literature they are of "unknown origin". We'll see if that pattern continues or not..

I can still claim A24070 is more diverse North of Danube and be fully correct :grin:
a) A24070* Hungarian
b) RU281 Cluj (Basarab study) dys393=14 + dys458=17/18 he clusters with Bosniak because I know due to result of second Bosniak family that their subcluster is defined by these same, and its impossible RU281 is BY4507 because he won't be converging on these additonal STR's..
c) no. 9 Vojvodina (Veselinovic et al.) , my subcluster dys385b=17, yet negative to H4=11 and dys385a=17 mutations within my subcluster. That means up to 1000 years away from me. I don't know what ethnicity he is, but I hope to find out at least that, they did test all people from Vojvodina there as can be see by haplotypes, Serbs, Hungarians, Romanians, Roma, Rusyns... I do know that such haplotypes occur only in Shop (but impossible to know distance to them it could also be 1000 ybp) and Serbs from Vojvodina are by and large of Rascian and Bosnian origin, hardly any have Shop connection..




Someone who is apparently very knowledgeable and enthusiastic like you should have picked up by now that your subclade has nothing to do with any Turkic people

Turkic expansion is recent and great many different clades became part of it at one point or the other. In fact there are originally proto-Turkic clades which were Iranic 2000 years ago etc. So no, insofar V13 is concerned there are no older Turkic clades and there cannot be as Turkic boom was far more recent. One can be of almost any distant origin and still be part of Turkic expansion at one point in time. Some younger V13 clades might be Turkic.



apart from the reason that with the Hallstatt expansion of CTS9320, the center of gravity for this particular SNP moved to the most eastern expansion of the Hallstatt culture, and for that reason there are some CTS9320* among the Ossetians or other subclades such as Z17107 in various Russians and Ukrainians whom most probably were dispersed with the highly mobile Scythians.

You can't look at Z16988 and it's "Western" spread and conclude it is so Western "Hallstat" when there are so many Roman legionaries there. fact E-V13 has never been found in an Indoeuropean Western-central European spectrum and it has likely little or nothing to do with it. Proto-Celtic/Italic included. There is also a basal Z16988 in Moldavia, NW Bulgaria. There are only 3 ethnic Romanian/Moldavian BigY/NGS tests, 10 times less than in Albanians/Serbs etc.. That does create a hole where it shouldn't be.




Furthermore, your remarks about various groups of ancient people as important or unimportant are very childish.

There is nothing childish about the facts. Ottoman Turks conquered the Balkans because they were a mixture of warrior Steppe culture and "warrior" Islamic religion. Similarly Arabians with their warrior Bedouin Islam defeated the Byzantines and Sassanids (who fought each other but still).. Many would say Roman Empire died partly due to Christianity, compared to the old Roman "spirit", ofc Christianity had subsequently "Beserk" times..:laughing:




Nothing personal but most of us interested in this field should be very realistic with our expectations and draw the line between expectations and reality.
I for example would like to find more about my deeper ancestry no matter what it is originally after all. That wan't make me a better or a weaker person.

I wouldn't necessarily, I just pick what I like and disregard the rest. That may be 20 %, 50 % or 90 %. I am a picky person.
Well I speak Turkish (for years before I was even tested).. And my Bosnian cousin is an Islamic scholar who translated Ottoman documents. I assure you for them too Hungaro-Turkic options are attractive as are for most Bosniaks. I am half Bosniak and I spent most of my time with them, not Serbs, so no wonder I go for such connections. Turks are not such "bad guys" for me. In fact I do have likely Turkish origin from few of my maternal lines. I know my great-grandmothers family certainly descends of Muslims from Temes who came to Bosnia after the Ottomans lost Temes in 1716. Maybe my mtdna comes from there.

I can tell you though most Serbs wish to be of Slavic origin. I most definitely don't and never have really. I do like "unusual origins" in general.



Bumping self confidence out of some genetic results was never my intention and those who are afraid to not descend from a group whom they deem weak, unlikable etc. should not take a genetic test because it might effect their self confidence.

I have and always have had a list of "preferred" peoples. It does not matter whether I descend from one or not. I like some of those peoples based on principles they were governed by not necessarily genetic links. If there is some "good" to be found then I view it as something that should be harvested for the future. If not then it should be overlooked.

If I or anyone else happen to find some ancestor they might deem of "unpreferable" stock, consider him non-existent and search for the others.


Btw I am proud of being of distant North African descent and I have no problems whatsover identifying with North Africans (in a way) unlike 99 % of E-V13. In fact I take great pride in being a descendant of Ibero-Maurusians, and I certainly hope Capsians. In comparison to the EEF short, small gracile Meds (And Paleobalkanites were pred. EEF).




Both on the Block Tree and YFULL Tree it's very clear that this subclade have nothing to do with any Turks or other Steppe people but with the most eastern expansion of the Hallstatt culture thus it's no wonder that there is much diversity of CTS9320 in Hungary and it's neighborhood. Again, the Scythians, Cimmerians and other Steppe people who expanded west most probably dispersed many CTS9320 further east.

What about other Carpathian CTS9320's such as BY4507 and it's relatives. Actually as far as I am concerned this Hungarian BY4507 still has a good claim for Cuman relation and I hope we get some results in that direction. I see one Russian who should be certain CTS9320+ by Y111 as maybe related to him.




Also, we can't really say what the carriers of these subclades would have been, whether Dacians or Pannonians.
Y30991 looks pretty old in the West Balkans assuming the predictions of YFULL are correct. It's distribution is a Hallstatt influence on the region and dates to the EIA. Therefor, it's distribution looks Pannonian-Western Balkans.

Nope, there is no strong evidence to associate Hallstat Central Europeans to CTS9320 or any E-V13 clade. These were mostly R1b U152. CTS9320 is Eastern "Hallstat" Gava culture, originally Thracian but some have spilled into the Western areal.

Most of early E-V13 expansions seem proto-Philistine/EBA. Hallstat (mostly R-U152) caused the migration of Sea Peoples packed with E-V13, J-L283, R-PF7562 etc. CTS9320 might have been of of few V13's in those days to cause these migrations alongside R-U152, but even so their role in this is not clear.


Anyway in the case Thracian languages were LBA arrivals which is likely, then CTS9320 is likely proto-Thracian alongside R-Z93 clades and few others. We do have CTS9320* clades in Bulgaria (they occur in Romanians as well but those might be migrants), we do have much greater diversity of various CTS9320 clades in Triballian areas. Don't forget Thracian Greek who is CTS9320* (was active here).


And for Z17107 basal diversity is not in any "Illyrian" areas. As I have said, my A24066 cluster is rare but in the study done by Zgonjanin it was 10 times more common than usual, because they tested Southeast Serbian border region which is heavily under-tested in Serbian Project (because some Serbs are upset they will have cousins in Bulgaria, and they do have them often naturally). STR's are quite clear that my own family migrated from the Shop be it this or that. So current situation for my subclade is far from realistic. And also Bosnian clusters with a NW Romanian, too bad Romanian project has only 100-120 (ethnic Romanian) people tested. Won't find him waiting for Romanians to test.

In Illyrian context obviously it can be in some more NW areas of Illyria.

So we'll see how the tree develops, but our nearest distant relative is Hungarian too. Btw. I think Ukrainians have a good shot at coming between me and Hungarian, too bad they don't have Y111 as our most important STR's are in 68-111, but BigY will tell.

Aspurg
05-04-20, 18:34
And the "clan" in question is the most numerous family there and in literature they are of "unknown origin". We'll see if that pattern continues or not..
.

Something interesting. The tested cousin of mine claims they are taller than the surrounding population of the region, which is shorter than in many other Serb areas. And tested Bosniak related to me said they are tall, all from 5'11" to 6'9", round faced, generally lighter.

Unlike for ex. E-CTS9320>BY105970 of Kelmendi clan who were known to be short on Peshter. And you have this internet Bjelopavlic dude E-Z16988>Z13591 claiming how his shortness is due "to V13". :D That's not some Vlach/Albanian/Paleobalkan thing. Indeed in Eastern Montenegro where there is more E-V13/Paleobalkan admix people are shorter for MNE standards. As Dema puts it, "Albanians are Mediterraneans" , Mediterraneans are supposed to be short people (taller types such as "Atlanto-med" came to be due to IE admixture). Nomads very often had tall stature based sexual selection. Some might say Cumans were short, Cuman burials were most definitely far from short. Not to mention Bulgars.

To add on Peshter highlands this personal name "Togan/Tugan" that appears few times, I said "t" is Kipchak, true but this sort of name was never attested in Cumans, related form "Towan" is considered Pecheneg. This and Dorman which also occurs 2 times near Bijelo Polje, some say Cuman (Drman Bulgarian Bolyar) but originally likely Pecheneg, again other than Drman never attested in Cumans, I believe few links with Pechenegs exist (those in Hungary). The mountain name of Žilindar does seem definitely something Kipchak, the thing is there is some other genetics in the area. In Bosniaks from actually near Kumanica monastery there is C-M48, though they match Turks in Turkey, and also in Bosniak from Sjenica D-Y14813 found in a Tatar from Romania, origin from Crimea. Don't know how close he is to this one (could be recent Tatar ancestry if he is only 300 years away). So there are some exotic haplogroups in the area. And still 1253 Bulgarian raid did happen, and these villages such as Raždaginja, Boroštica from where I have cousins do have clear Bulgarian lingustical base. Add to that Boljare.

exercitus
06-04-20, 23:49
Hi Aspurg,
I see that you are very knowledgeable concerning Genetic Genealogy (in my own case it's the opposite actually !!).So, could you please analyze this two Yfull results and give me your opinion, and possibly a plausible explanation why we observe such matches between Romanians and Albanians (considering the cosiderable geographical distance i.e. from Vlore to Botoșani!)!?

-https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y191359/

-https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y150765/

Progon
07-04-20, 13:10
If we go by Y-DNA E-M78* in it's pure ANA form E-M78 descended people would be taller than Steppe Nomads and Mesolithic Euro types. But their autosomal was diluted due to Med admixture.

But, that's not in discussion anyway.

Regarding, Albanian and Dacian theory it's a hype propagated by Serbs after they lost the Caucasian theory card. I mean, i am the type of guy i wouldn't mind if we are descended from Dacians. Nothing wrong with it, but things start to get really fishy when people with extreme hatred toward my people trying to push a hypothesis not holding ground, and being considered as C option after Illyrian and Thracian theories.

If people would be objective, then they'll say that Illyrian is the best candidate, Thracian then Dacian. And the most realistic view would be a Illyrian-Thracian with Epirotic influences and slightly Slavic.

But up to this degree any theories of Albanians descending further North than South Serbia is propaganda. Linguistic evidence, genetic evidence doesn't seem to be in accordance.

Aspurg
08-04-20, 01:58
Something is wrong with this forum, can't log in for dozens of times..


Hi Aspurg,
I see that you are very knowledgeable concerning Genetic Genealogy (in my own case it's the opposite actually !!).So, could you please analyze this two Yfull results and give me your opinion, and possibly a plausible explanation why we observe such matches between Romanians and Albanians (considering the cosiderable geographical distance i.e. from Vlore to Botoșani!)!?


-https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y191359/


-https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y150765/


These matches are completely in line with the dominant scientific consensus (excluding Romanian scientists, often made in Ceausescu era) based on linguistic, archeological, and now genetic evidence that the proto-Romanians formed South of Danube river, and that in successive migrations they colonized modern day Romania. Prior to that Romania was populated by Slavic speaking populations with some Turkics here and there, (excluding ofc Transylvania).


The amount of non-Slavic, non-germanic Y-DNA matches dating to Medieval times between Romanians on one side and Albanians/Serbs/Bulgarians/Greeks on another is enormous. I am familiar with all Romanian haplotypes from studies and FTDNA, and I can say at least 10 % of Romanian Y-DNA has Medieval connections with the Balkans. 10 % of those that can be classified that is, so certainly more.

In fact almost all J-L283 falls in there:
J-L283>Z1043>BY101837 Numerous Basarabs from Bibiu and Gorj as well as ht96 from Niamt, 169 from Ploiesti cluster with Albanians (Thaci-Korbi), Croats, Bosniaks, Greeks, likely Montneegrins/Serbs. This is most the probable Basarab Y-DNA (only Basarab occuring in 2 districts).
J-L283>BY81991 Romanian has TMRCA with Italian at 1850 ybp, but closer are Bulgarians from Tarnovo (still not profiled but they fall certainly there).
J-L283>Y20899 Oradea (study), with Albanians
J-L283>Y85328 with Bulgarian
J-L283>Y40288 I think one guy from here is at this level. Again Serbs, Bulgarians.


Also we see plenty of matches in E-V13, especially with Bulgarians. I'd say over 50 % of (identifiable) Romanian E-V13 has recent Balkan ties. Of there are those who seem Dacian-Getic, often having relatives in Hungarians, Ruthenians, W. Ukrainians.

J-Y150765 seems something else, it might have older presence there. Generally thus far only one Romanian J2a cluster seems to have recent Balkan ties.

Proto-Romanians likely descend from inhabitants of Roman cities in Balkan provinces who migrated to the mountains to escape the chaos and devastation caused by the Hunnic incursions and inability of Romans to ensure security at the time. There they met proto-Albanians from whom they learned the trade of Transhumance, and they excelled at Transhumance probably even more than the Albanians.


So we have an Albanian Z17107* result it seems, Dante takes lot of time to do the STR's, but I reallz want to know his GATAH4. There are some American Z17107 results with H4=11 and I suspected beacuse of these H4=12 is Y30991.




Regarding, Albanian and Dacian theory it's a hype propagated by Serbs after they lost the Caucasian theory card.

Would you point to some serious Serbian source which claims Albanians came from the Caucasus. I am not aware of any. Deretic is a lunatic and nobody sane takes him seriously. When reading some Serbian linguists such as A. Loma he always postulated Albanians descend of a Paleo-Balkan population, though generally he favored Thracian one.




I mean, i am the type of guy i wouldn't mind if we are descended from Dacians. Nothing wrong with it, but things start to get really fishy when people with extreme hatred toward my people trying to push a hypothesis not holding ground, and being considered as C option after Illyrian and Thracian theories.


If people would be objective, then they'll say that Illyrian is the best candidate, Thracian then Dacian. And the most realistic view would be a Illyrian-Thracian with Epirotic influences and slightly Slavic.


But up to this degree any theories of Albanians descending further North than South Serbia is propaganda. Linguistic evidence, genetic evidence doesn't seem to be in accordance.

With the new Albanian Z17107* result it seems lot more likely Albanian Z38456 is there for a long time, so not Dacian. Other than that there are no numerous clusters that could possibly be of Dacian origin. Besides the Dacian option was never likely because Albanian has huge Latin influence, had Albanian descended of Carpi or Costoboci no way Albanian would have had such strong Latin influence. Because these groups were never under Roman control, and they only had some trade contacts with the Romans.

Bulgarian linguist Vladimir Georgiev was the one who pushed for the Dacian origin of Albanian, but he considered the shared non-Latin substrate that Romanian shared with the Albanian to be of Dacian origin, assuming Dacian ancestry of Romanians. We know now that Romanians and Albanians share some genetics but these seem pretty un-Dacian. So likely proto-Romanians and Albanians were somewhere in Central Balkans living next to each other for some period of time.


Some Romanian linguists also pushed for this so they could prove that they are descended of romanized Dacians (Romanian substrate words shared with Albanian => Albanian = Dacian => Romanians descend of Dacians.)


I am being very objective when I say that CTS9320 corresponds very well with with the Gava culture and that this culture was also proto-Dacian/proto-Thracian. I did not mention most of E-V13, you seem to generalize overly. Maybe some clades such as clades of FGC11450 might have some case there, but most others simply do not have a case. Gava culture elements who among others caused the Late Bronze Age collapse from the Hungarian/Slovakians areas reached Albania, Asia Minor/Troy, Northern Greece... And TMRCA of CTS9320 corresponds very well to it. I used to think Basarabi was more likely but TMRCA doesn't correspond so well nor do the migratory paths (possibly some Gava elements later were part of some Basarab movements).
Most of V13 can't have anything to do with Gava culture in a formative sense.


Ah I see finally the Albanian cousin of Bjelopavlici appeared. So both Kuqi and Palbardhi have some close matches in Albanians as onomastics clearly indicate. Kuqi had 50 % + of Albanian names in 1485 whereas although Bjelopavlici had few, the name of their ancestor was very unusual for Slavic standards: "white Paul", the names involving white were alot more common in Albanians as is this construction of surname with two persons (usually son and father).

blevins13
08-04-20, 02:10
These matches are completely in line with the dominant scientific consensus (excluding Romanian scientists, often made in Ceausescu era) based on linguistic, archeological, and now genetic evidence that the proto-Romanians formed South of Danube river, and that in successive migrations they colonized modern day Romania. Prior to that Romania was populated by Slavic speaking populations with some Turkics here and there, (excluding ofc Transylvania).


The amount of non-Slavic, non-germanic Y-DNA matches dating to Medieval timnes between Romanians on one side and Albanians/Serbs/Bulgarians/Greeks on another is enormous. I am familiar with all Romanian haplotypes from studies and FTDNA, and I can say at least 10 % of Romanian Y-DNA has Medieval connections with the Balkans. 10 % of those that can be classified that is, so certainly more.


In fact almost all J-L283 falls in there:
J-J-L283>Z1043>BY101837 Numerous Basarabs from Bibiu and Gorj as well as ht96 from Niamt, 169 from Ploiesti cluster with Albanians (Thaci-Korbi), Croats, Bosniaks, Greeks, likely Montneegrins/Serbs. This is most the probable Basarab Y-DNA (only Basarab occuring in 2 districts).
J-L283>BY81991 Romanian has TMRCA with Italian at 1850 ybp, but much closer are Bulgarians from Tarnovo.
J-L283>Y20899 Oradea (study) with Albanians
J-L283>Y37121 with Bulgarians
J-L283>Y40288 I think one guy from here is at this level.


Also we see plenty of matches in E-V13, especially with Bulgarians. I'd say over 50 % of (identifiable) Romanian E-V13 has recent Balkan ties.

J-Y150765 seems something else, it might have older presence there. Generally thus far only one Romanian J2a cluster seems to have recent Balkan ties.

Proto-Romanians likely descend from inhabitants of Roman cities in Balkan provinces who migrated to the mountains to escape the chaos and devastation caused by the Hunnic incursions and inability of Romans to ensure security at the time. There they met proto-Albanians from whom they learned the trade of Transhumance.


So we have an Albanian Z17107* result it seems, Dante takes lot of time to do the STR's, but I reallz want to know his GATAH4. There are some American Z17107 results with H4=11 and I suspected beacuse of these H4=12 is Y30991.




Would you point to some serious Serbian source which claims Albanians came from the Caucasus. I am not aware of any. Deretic is a lunatic and nobody sane takes him seriously. When reading some Serbian linguists such as A. Loma he always postulated Albanians descend of a Paleo-Balkan population, though generally he favored Thracian one.




With the new Albanian Z17107* result it seems lot more likely Albanian Z38456 is there for a long time, so not Dacian. Other than that there are no numerous clusters that could possibly be of Dacian origin. Besides the Dacian option was never likely because Albanian has huge Latin influence, had Albanian descended of Carpi or Costoboci no way Albanian would have had such strong Latin influence. Because these groups were never under Roman control, and they only had some trade contacts with the Romans.


Bulgarian linguist Vladimir Georgiev was the one who pushed for the Dacian origin of Albanian, but he considered the shared non-Latin substrate that Romanian shared with the Albanian to be of Dacian origin, assuming Dacian ancestry of Romanians. We know now that Romanians and Albanians share some genetics but these seem pretty un-Dacian. So likely proto-Romanians and Albanians were somewhere in Central Balkans living next to each other for some period of time.


Some Romanian linguists also pushed for this so they could prove that they are descended of romanized Dacians (Romanian substrate words shared with Albanian => Albanian = Dacian => Romanians descend of Dacians.)


I am being very objective when I say that CTS9320 corresponds very well with with the Gava culture and that this culture was also proto-Dacian/proto-Thracian. I did not mention most of E-V13, you seem to generalize overly. Maybe some clades such as clades of FGC11450 might have some case there, but most others simply do not have a case. Gava culture elements who among others caused the Late Bronze Age collapse from the Hungarian/Slovakians areas reached Albania, Asia Minor/Troy, Northern Greece... And TMRCA of CTS9320 corresponds very well to it. I used to think Basarabi was more likely but TMRCA doesn't correspond so well nor do the migratory paths (possibly some Gava elements later were part of some Basarab movements).
Most of V13 can't have anything to do with Gava culture in a formative sense.


Ah I see finally the Albanian cousin of Bjelopavlici appeared. So both Kuqi and Palbardhi have some close matches in Albanians as onomastics clearly indicate. Kuqi had 50 % + of Albanian names in 1485 whereas although Bjelopavlici had few, the name of their ancestor was very unusual for Slavic standards: "white Paul", the names involving white were alot more common in Albanians as is this construction of surname with two persons (usually son and father).

Roman Dacian relation was constructed during the period of extreme nationalism.....to support that, they proposed that Albanian came from Carpi ....but this theory holds no water....Modern Romanians came from South Danube (from the Roman Empire logically)

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exercitus
08-04-20, 18:12
Thanks Aspurg very clarifying.
I noticed also some new Albanian samples at the last update at Yfull tree which have impressively TMRCA's > 3000 ybp, so i guess that this evidences further corroborate the Old presence of this Hg in the Balkanic area;

- https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y21878*/

- https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y21045/

also regarding the - indo european hg - R1b;

- https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L52*/

exercitus
08-04-20, 18:40
About the Bjelopavlici\Palbardhi there was also a portion, among those inhabitants in the Defter of 1485, with typical (or likely) Albanian Anthroponyms, but still the majority had Slavic onomastics , so we might conclude that it was a mixed Slavic-Albanian community !!

11940

11941


Concerning Kuci and Piperi the Albanian presence in list of names it's noticable, in the case of Vasojevici, the area around Andrejevica and Plav, the Slavic presence is overwhelming !! So my perplexity consist in the fact that how can we explain that the today Serbians\Bosnians\Montenegrins which have ancestry from the Montenegrin Brda's, have principally Old Balkan Haplogroups ?!

11942

Aspurg
08-04-20, 19:47
Thanks Aspurg very clarifying.
I noticed also some new Albanian samples at the last update at Yfull tree which have impressively TMRCA's > 3000 ybp, so i guess that this evidences further corroborate the Old presence of this Hg in the Balkanic area;


- https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y21878*/


- https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y21045/


also regarding the - indo european hg - R1b;


- https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L52*/


Most definitely J-L283 are pretty old in the Western Balkans area. That R-L52* should be some older migration (like Bell Beaker).





About the Bjelopavlici\Palbardhi there was also a portion, among those inhabitants in the Defter of 1485, with typical (or likely) Albanian Anthroponyms, but still the majority had Slavic onomastics , so we might conclude that it was a mixed Slavic-Albanian community !!




Concerning Kuci and Piperi the Albanian presence in list of names it's noticable, in the case of Vasojevici, the area around Andrejevica and Plav, the Slavic presence is overwhelming !! So my perplexity consist in the fact that how can we explain that the today Serbians\Bosnians\Montenegrins which have ancestry from the Montenegrin Brda's, have principally Old Balkan Haplogroups ?!



It seems your attachment didn't work well, but I've seen that already. The territory of Bjelopavlic tribe was not entirely in the 1485 defter, portion was recorded in 1477 Herzegovina defter. There are Albanian names here and there but they were already slavicised at the time. Also, first time the tribe is mentioned in 1411, and few tribal individuals were mentioned in about 1445 with Slavic names.


In Kuči Albanian influence was large in 1485. With Vasojevici much less, I think Vasojevici are not local there, they likely came from Herzegovina. They have various cousins there, but all of those need to do NGS tests to establish the facts. Even recently a Pole showed up who seem little distant to them, but not as distant to suggest some Slavic connection.


I don't think these were necessarily mixed, maybe some locals here and there under Bjelopavlici. In Kuci area there were 2 villages with entirely Slavic names, those were most likely some I2a Din and R1a people.

It is easy to explain, the area of Dioclea was some sort of "Refugium" for some Palaeobalkanic poeples. There are various other Balkanic hg's in the broader region.

Anyway you might start a theme on it. Not sure if there was one before. What I do know is that there was no problem for Montenegrins or Albanians if one had this or that origin as they often fought together against the Ottomans.


Wow my mtdna, it seems Alanic-Sarmatian.:cool-v: I didn't know the TMRCA was so low, but Russia, N. Europe, also Italy, W. Europe, and importantly North Africa combined with I1a1 Srubnaya find and some I1a* in Iran make it pretty certain this was Alan lineage. I1a1 was found in a proto-Illyrian grave but that must be some lost line due to low TMRCA of I1a1 and spread, some Estonian IA, but this TMRCA of 1650 ybp and spread looks Alan, some clades going to the North. I knew there was some force pushing to look for Nomad links for my Y-DNA lol.

Aspurg
21-04-20, 17:01
This Albanian from Tirana shares a single SNP with Hungarians A19247. But somehow his SNP count is low. Theirs is not too much higher.. I thought maybe Dante low depth reduces the SNP count, but probably not. It does reduce the number of reads. And coverage is great. In some other cases Dante results have more SNP's..

I think I'm back to the old ways... hahahaha I think genetic facts are more likely to become aligned with this than not..

I should have paid more attention to Pechenegs. It turns out there was a Hungarian Pecheneg community in the early 14th century in which (within one of their tribes, community) a name very similar to my surname base occurs. Also in this same community occurs the name Towan related to "Togan" (actuall its gh, and this gh > w) found right where my cluster is found.. That's not going be an accident especially not with this cluster being found in a village founded and settled by the Pechenegs..

Also in Bulgaria in the same village where my surname base occurs there is another Pecheneg name in the same village: Tomir. (Not found anwhere else in Bulgaria). All of these are attested in Pechenegs, not in Cumans (Cumans have compound with Tomir but not alone).. Especially this Orkon, Wrkun, Wrkund etc. forms, already in the Pechenegs from the 10th century.

Bosnia, this Bosnian cluster. It turns out that the first ruler of Bosnia Ban Kulin had a Pecheneg name. Kulin son of Kegen was a Pecheneg from 11th century. It means "foal". Even before looking at few noble Medieval Bosnian families such as Sabančić there was this influence. Btw Sabančić had some sort of blood connection with Vilić and Vilić is A24066. Vilić was a Medieval noble house in Bosnia, and very powerful Ottoman Bey family. This one is from Herzegovina but there were migrations of them from Bosnia to Herzegovina and this cluster is not found in any Serbs from Herzegovina (almost 500 tested). Even Bosnia itself might be derived of it but less likely (Bosnia - Besseni). One mufti actually claimed this, based on writings of one Tatar. But there was Pecheneg influence in Bosnia it seems. Well Bosnians must be rather closely related to Cluj sample (just these 2 STR's are 2 SNP's and there are more) where we have plenty of their traces. Already Bosniaks have some Central Bosnian Nomad clusters, proto-Magyar, Jasz, and obviously somebody has to be Pecheneg too with these Pecheneg influences.

So it could be that some nomads slapped around the locals and created the Bosnia, possibly with Hungarian involvement. None of these is found in Serbs or Croats from Bosnia.. And Bosniaks from central Bosnia descend of original Bosnians in highest percentage. Many Croats from C.Bosnia descend recently from Herzegovina, but many locals as well there.

Well there was Ban Borić just before Kulin, but then again he came from Hungary, and also his name is being possibly connected to Bulgarian..

Plenty of Bessenyei's from Hungary to test, it's a very widespread surname but I have to look more closely at the County where these names occur in 14th century. And, Berende villages also. Two tested don't have any matches, one is E-V13, looks some CTS9320 likely. (this one was tested at Serbian project, not sure he is interested in deeper tests).

Plus there is some Hungarian Z17107 candidate, he happens to be from a Pecheneg settlement. If he is Z17107 then he is related to one Ukrainian clade who's BigY I have been chasing. You see they have H4=12, and generally Z17107 have lower SNP count suggesting some TMRCA of 2700 years as Trojet suggested. Except my clade, namely A24066 where we have more, and we look mutated. Ukrainian clade also looks very mutated and they also mutated on dys438 (just in opposite direction), so I think chances are they do share something at A24066 level.

And ofc this clade is weird in having a possible member from Uzbekistan from one study. My surname base (excluding the suffix designating location) can indeed be derived of this Pecheneg name, just with a loss of semi-wovel at the front. This Pecheneg name in turn might be Avar and relate to the person of "Gostun" and we have such village right next door in Bijelo Polje, and we have Pecheneg name in that village in late 15th century. I'd like to see some people who are old there tested.

Also Hungarian A24070 looks to have some Magyar link, possible relation to Apor.

Aspurg
23-04-20, 19:34
Wow this Cuman convergent haplotype has really hindered me from realizing the things, because I was too focused on them. In one Peshter village near Bolyare, we find individuals with some unique names: Kopun/Kopon and Okor!! As it turns out Kopon/Chopon was one of Pecheneg tribes!!! They ruled modern Wallachia. So my ancestors even knew of what tribe they were... Kopun as a surname existed in areas of Croatia where it betrayed an Italian influence, mostly people who dealt with poultry. Literally no such people in these areas ever had it as a personal name, and I haven't seen it elsewhere used as such. Kopun is stingy rooster, laughable for a personal name lol. Not in one Medieval Serbian document either (with tens of thousands of names) an these Latin influences in Croatia were far from this area. In this instance an individual had this name.

And this Okor person, just as with my own surname base which is similar (my surname can only be viewed in S.Slavic context as some sort of unlikely even pejorative form rather unfitting an old family that mine is, sometimes denotes physical trait in this case it cannot denote that, in any case unusual) betrays Oghur influence. Also linguistically these differences (my surname -Pecheneg names) can be explained in Slavic, loss of frontal vowel so common plus insertion of a vowel to break up the unpronounceable cluster at the front, "rk" cluster can't be pronounced at the start without the addition of a vowel. Consonants are identical as is final vowel. Per Gyula Nemeth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyula_N%C3%A9meth_(linguist)) and Baskakov this tribe's name originates from the title of Kopon/Kopan which is Oghur/Bulgar in origin. And guess what the only two people with such personal names are found in this village and look at this:

Kopan Okorsis , leader under Omurtag who drowned in the Dniepr river.

Also in a village with A24066 we get some really odd for the region Russian names/forms, normal as Pecheneg remnants the Black Hats served Kyev and Ruthenian princes against the Cumans..

So only when I deleted the Cumans, I was able to see a clear and exact sense in these.. It turns out all these traces have nothing to do with Cumans and everything to do with the Pechenegs.. And ofc I got cousins in village founded by them. Btw we find one "Korsin" near that village too in the late 15th century. Never found this name anywhere else.

In 1253. Bulgarians invaded Bijelo Polje, ransacked the area because Ragusians called upon them in the course of their war with Serbia. Serbs were the losing side and Serbian ruler had to sue for peace, with the help of Hungarian king he made peace with Bulgarians. But he had to recognize the Hungarian king as sovereign. Duo to huge amount of Bulgarian traces in Southern Peshter and few near Bijelo Polje area it seems he had to accept the presence of some Bulgarian Bolyar group there. Unlike most people I know all ancestry for the past 400 years and also can guarantee presence and also prominence all the way to the late 15th century.

I see plenty of Romanians have the surname Berendei, so I'm gonna be adding them to Pecheneg Hungarians and some Bulgarians to my list of priorities.. There are only 20 Romanian NGS's ridiculous for a nation of that size, so the only way to get a better picture of them is through studies until more people get tested. We do have Romanian from Cluj county who is certainly related to Bosniaks by STR's, and over there plenty of Pecheneg influence in archaeology.. Two clusters: one Bosniak - NW Romania, the other Upper Lim, Peshter - Shop - Vojvodina. Their TMRCA should be around 1000 years. Btw in one Serbian study where I have these relatives they have some STR's not present in FTDNA Y111. And one of these is a triple backmutation on a slow STR. So they are 100 % related and 100 % there is a cluster defined by a 385b here.. I am more certain in this link than I ever was in Cuman, just crazy how this evidence fits in..

Also it seems dys438 mutates faster in Nomads. R and Q share elevated dys438=11, R1b M269 mutateed to 12, Asian R-M73 mutated back to 10.. I see a large sample of hg's and R1b's and R1a's mutate more there. Ossetian Alan cluster of GG330 mutated back to 9. This convergent Cumanian sample to 11, same as me, other unprofiled Z17107 mutated back.. I already read of the possibility that environments affect mutation rates.

LeoJ
25-04-20, 17:06
These matches are completely in line with the dominant scientific consensus (excluding Romanian scientists, often made in Ceausescu era) based on linguistic, archeological, and now genetic evidence that the proto-Romanians formed South of Danube river, and that in successive migrations they colonized modern day Romania. Prior to that Romania was populated by Slavic speaking populations with some Turkics here and there, (excluding ofc Transylvania). Proto-Romanians likely descend from inhabitants of Roman cities in Balkan provinces who migrated to the mountains to escape the chaos and devastation caused by the Hunnic incursions and inability of Romans to ensure security at the time. There they met proto-Albanians from whom they learned the trade of Transhumance, and they excelled at Transhumance probably even more than the Albanians. With the new Albanian Z17107* result it seems lot more likely Albanian Z38456 is there for a long time, so not Dacian. Other than that there are no numerous clusters that could possibly be of Dacian origin. Besides the Dacian option was never likely because Albanian has huge Latin influence, had Albanian descended of Carpi or Costoboci no way Albanian would have had such strong Latin influence. Because these groups were never under Roman control, and they only had some trade contacts with the Romans. Fair enough. Personally I think you're right. But the proto-romanians were in fact the old north Danube (original Dacia area before conquest) latinized dacians who retreated alongside the romans south Danube (Dacia Aureliana, Moesia Superior, Serdica, Bulgaria), which in medieval times formed the so-called vlachs. So, even south of Danube they have north Danube ancestry. Dacia Aurelie was afterward divided into two: Dacia Mediterranea and Dacia Ripensis. Off course, many wanted and still want for the sake of ideological fixations to force the truth in either ways. In this aspect, the baseline of the romanian historians was and is to confirm (without much consistency imho) the continuity of the romanians inside the former Dacian area. And off course, the basic theorem of the latinization of the dacians, and thus the birth of the romanian peoples.

LeoJ
25-04-20, 17:17
These matches are completely in line with the dominant scientific consensus (excluding Romanian scientists, often made in Ceausescu era) based on linguistic, archeological, and now genetic evidence that the proto-Romanians formed South of Danube river, and that in successive migrations they colonized modern day Romania. Prior to that Romania was populated by Slavic speaking populations with some Turkics here and there, (excluding ofc Transylvania). And what's your opinion on the romanian Transylvania ancestors related to dacians (that area was also inhabited by dacian tribes) ?

Aspurg
29-04-20, 05:34
6. Čarović (related to the guz above) E-A24066 Raždaginja, Čarovina

How the hell did I not notice this before!!! Because of Cumans.. LOOOL So there is this old family from Peshter Čarović. "Char/Čar" basis does not exist anywhere in Medieval Serbian documents. It is encountered few times in Bulgaria in 16th century, and today in few surnames there. Origin?? Turkic. Çağrı -"hawk", but this "ğ" is a Voiced velar fricative so for example in Modern Turkish it is not pronounced (Çarı), And so A24066 is Çarović, aaand A24066 is the main family of Pečenjevce, next to it there is Čekmin/Çekmin, Čekmin is certainly connected to Pečenjevce even in terms of sharing genetics because together with 2 small neighboring villages they are mentioned in 1498.

So in 1167. we have 3 Berendei brothers one of them was Çekman Ça(ğ)rovich.
These names were sooo rare, and their combination especially. This surname in Serbs does not exist other than in my cousins (their close cousins were tested actually, but they must be the same thing). Having these Russian names on Peshter.. these Chagrovichi worked for some Kievan princes I believe.. A24066 is connected to these, a genetic fact. Honestly Serbs and Albanians are far better tested than Russians, Ukrainians when the population size is taken into account.. Even this basal Russian Z17107>BY4467, clearly Z17107 does have some older Eastern connections too already...This Vojvodina dude, I don't think he's Serb (they did test all ethnicities in the study but they didn't specify who's what), and even he were I cannot find any sense for some Shop area family to be in Vojvodina inhabitant. No such migrations. Plus ofc this clade of Z17107*, I can say of all Z17107 only A24066 and these seem so "mutated", even the Hungarian A24070 is not. And indeed they all get around 2700 years, we get more and so will these, and we mutated on dys438, only in opposite directions, if one of us didn't go from 10 then we are certainly related. So I'll be wanting BigY of these. Also there is some other interesting guy, but needs a Pack..

There is only one "kopan" in history and that is the Okorsis.. Apparently Pechenegs were a very mixed people. Actually per some authorities Xopon/Kopon tribe is derived of the title "kopan".

So it seems I am actually the son of Çağr who died in mid 12th century. In any case these names are firmly associated with the Berindei. These places in the region, they could have arrived in early 13th century, for example Berendei are not mentioned as a separate group prior to early 12th century. First Pecheneg main settlement of the Shop was in 1091 after they were defeated. Their remnants then united with these other peoples in a group called the Black Hats.

I see so many Berindeis in Romania even in Cluj where we have some A24066 (he's just more distant to me, close to Bosnian). Romanians are so poorly tested atm, that even testing various Berindeis would make up a good portion of their project.

Some legends say we always had lots of horses.. That the Ottomans chased us to take our horses away.. Wasn't like that mostly, we worked with the Ottomans. But because of these I thought my ancestors were possibly some nomadic people years ago..

LeoJ
29-04-20, 17:10
I see so many Berindeis in Romania even in Cluj where we have some A24066 (he's just more distant to me, close to Bosnian). Romanians are so poorly tested atm, that even testing various Berindeis would make up a good portion of their project. Berindei is quite a common name here in Transilvanya. I had once a work mate with this name. Did you read my above posts ?

Aspurg
29-04-20, 18:53
Berindei is quite a common name here in Transilvanya. I had once a work mate with this name. Did you read my above posts ?

I responded to you in another thread dealing with Dacia.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/37672-Main-Y-haplogroups-on-the-territory-of-Dacia-2000-3000-years-ago/page4?p=602205&viewfull=1#post602205

Yes very interesting to see it is common, even some boyars were Berindei. They appear as a group in 1097, they were united with the remnants of Pechenegs, Uz (Torki) and they often served the Russians against the Cumans.

I was talking about Çağrı loosing ğ but actually there is a hint Çağr proper root retaining the "g" does occur in the Shop area! Village Čagrovac only 10 miles NE from Pečenjevce! Also mentioned in 1498. so no doubt that actually some Berindei Chagrovichi were there in Medieval times! They might have been some local magnates. Pečenjevce, Čekmin, Čagrovac, Berende 1, Berende 2 across the border in Bulgaria.. Chekman Chagrovich a Berendei who were part of federation with the Pechenegs..

Pečenjevce/Čekmin are A24066 my subcluster, and the only similar surname to Cagrovich with a very minor difference (ğ not pronounced in A.Turkish and S.Slavic languages do not like those "h-like" sounds generally so Croats say for themselves often Rvat instead of Hrvat, "I want" - "Ya hoću -> oću" etc.) in existence are also A24066 my subcluster. Those are facts..

Looking at some of these groups, the Uzi were just like their Oghuz cousins so carrying some N-VL73 common in modern Oghuz Anatolian Turks. Pechenegs were it seems different, 3 of their tribes came from Asia, the Kangar ones, but the rest non-Kangar it seems were locals, and looking from anthropological data they had far less mongoloid influence than the Uzi. I didn't expect to see that but apparently Pechenegs resembled Sarmatians with some mongoloid influence. For Cumans, despite the "Polovtsy"/"blonde" claims usually bit more Asian influence is associated. No wonder as the proto-Cuman was a R-M478 clade. Still it seems one R-Z93 clade literally associated with it, "Shari", might have been spreading the "blonde" genes among them.

LeoJ
30-04-20, 21:09
I responded to you in another thread dealing with Dacia. I've read it but still can't point you're opinion about, most are replies to other subjects.

Aspurg
25-07-20, 17:30
At last I know who the oldest member of my family is. Reliable documents trump anything. My family was (until few days ago, now its older) 400 years old and was of high status, of course I was able to find out more. It was just waiting to be discovered.

The family I descend of is clear. Prominent member of that family as recently as 500 years ago on Peshter spoke Torlak/Bulgarian or was still heavily influenced by it. He called the "hare" "zajec" or "zajek", not "zec" like Serbo-Croats do. Most importantly the oldest member of the my family born likely around 1420 had a name 100 % foreign to Serbo-Croats. First time mentioned on the Balkans was in a Bulgarian bolyar from early 13th century. Was very rare in Bulgarians in 15th/16th century, but present in crucial core Bulgarian areas around Tarnovo and Razgrad, few more often near fortresses. Only a descendant of Bulgarian bolyar elite could have carried such a name. Its ultimate origin is Khazar and (Black) Bulgar and ultimately it's Sogdian/Saka derived.

Some of these comments here were bit trollish, but I felt it is "dishonorable" to complain to the mods. You would have done it, in your crying style ofc. So it is obvious we are of different stock as I always thought, and indeed we are.


@ Aspar you came here to have the back of these trolls. I know where you are from, and I know whom you match. Your Bulgarian cousin who shares one SNP with you is still Bronze Age distance to you. I know since I first got tested that I have a close relative in a Bulgarian from Karachanak study, likely another one from another study. Also I have a N.Macedonian (that is Bulgarian) relative. These people are far closer to me than your Bulgarian cousin.. My clade's current tree doesn't reflect reality. Reality is, from a genetic POV, from the order of mutations, my own family is not native in our native area, and not long ago! Long enough for high Medieval though. The fact is the Western Balkan people have done a far better job of testing people than the Easterners and Greeks..
And I'll tell you something, my close genetic relatives will pop up in medieval Bulgarian forts far earlier than the relatives of 90 % of ethnic Bulgarians.

These Bosnians for example have a relative in NW Romania likely 1000 years away (and we have historians claiming founder of the Bosnian state was a Pecheneg like I did), Romanians are practically a non-tested population, but still I found one there and thanks to these Bosnian results I know what defines their clade. And Bosnians from central Bosnia don't have Vlach ancestry, some do have Magyar-like ancestry though. And even I have some basal relative in Vojvodina, whose ethnicity I don't know (in that study over 30 % of tested were not Serbs). But I know he is certainly about or close to 1000 years away from me and all of my relatives bar one, and very unlikely related to him as well. Also there is a Ukrainian (W. Ukraine, one likely SE Poland) cluster of Z17107*, almost certainly Y30991+, finally I got attention there so hopefully I can have their position on the tree. I predict they belong to my clade based on some clear patterns. And if they do so will an Uzbek too. Also our TMRCA is little bit lower due to A24066 higher mutation rate than in other Z17107 clades (one reason why these Ukrainians might split the A24066).

Where my genetics comes from locally there was a Bulgarian enclave in Medieval times in the core of Serbian medieval state. The huge diversity of Bulgarian toponyms is clear. And my ancestors ruled there as local feudals in Medieval times within the Serbian state ofc, but they obviously had significant cultural autonomy. I think Bulgarians must be better tested, especially those from sub-ethnic groups such as Kapantsi etc. I think currently it is largely people testing their own relatives (mothers father, grandparents, greatgrandparents) from their region, which is good but not anywhere near good enough.

Aspurg
25-07-20, 18:20
Y167028 Hungarian's surname seems derived of a Hungarian chief (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apor_(chieftain)). My ancestors (in any case 100 % of my genetic cluster) name from 15h century certainly related and first attested in another Hungarian Conqueror (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huba_(chef_magyar)), leader of a Kabar (Khazar) tribe. Some of these Bulgar traces I found in the region actually point to that tribe. It seems from some data about them that part of Pechenegs were of Bulgar origin.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7_K28GZHdo

https://samoistina.at.ua/2/sudikovo/Shudikovo1-2s.JPG

Shudikova stone from Šudikova monastery, Berane N.Montenegro, found 20 km SW from the area from where my ancestors initially settled, based on onomastic and genetic evidence. Aleksandar Loma (and most) called them clearly Bulgar, per him possibly related to Pagan uprising of 893. That is a group of pagan Bulgars who migrated to there and were received by the semi-pagan Serbs. We don't know exactly their datation, will look into details.

Aspar
26-07-20, 21:35
@ Aspar you came here to have the back of these trolls. I know where you are from, and I know whom you match. Your Bulgarian cousin who shares one SNP with you is still Bronze Age distance to you. I know since I first got tested that I have a close relative in a Bulgarian from Karachanak study, likely another one from another study. Also I have a N.Macedonian (that is Bulgarian) relative. These people are far closer to me than your Bulgarian cousin.. My clade's current tree doesn't reflect reality. Reality is, from a genetic POV, from the order of mutations, my own family is not native in our native area, and not long ago! Long enough for high Medieval though. The fact is the Western Balkan people have done a far better job of testing people than the Easterners and Greeks..
And I'll tell you something, my close genetic relatives will pop up in medieval Bulgarian forts far earlier than the relatives of 90 % of ethnic Bulgarians.

Any reason why I was called upon in this post of yours?

Of course I match Macedonians, both Slavic speaking Macedonians but also speakers of Eastern Romance as evidenced by the cousins in Shtip. Whether we call ourselves Македонци or Machedoni doesn't matter, we are basically the same people, a salad of Romance and Slavic influences. You might want to check Kanchov about this (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_for_the_Macedonians#cite_note-11).

Anyway, I am not sure you can drew conclusions based solely on STR's when it comes to haplogroup such as E-V13. From those SNP tested I can see great diversity of Z17107 in the Carpathian basin and in the Western Balkans. You might have genetic cousins in Bulgaria and Macedonia but nevertheless the center of gravity of Z17107 and the whole CTS9320 I would say is the Carpathian basin so these cousins you have most probably came from that direction. In other words your line is very old in the Central and Western Balkans and you should search your ancient ancestor in the Carpathian basin not in the Steppe I believe. Although assimilation in various incoming peoples from the Steppe is possible nevertheless.

I had a post in another forum which might be of interest for you and which is ultimately connected with the cremation as a funeral rite and the expansion of E-Z1057 from the Carpathian basin:

The following EBA cultures such as Usatovo or Vucedol all practiced inhumations. In Pannonia however it seems that the cremation funeral rites survived and even influenced the Bell Beakers who in turn were known to practice both inhumations and cremation. I would even dare to say that the Chalcolithic and EBA people who lived in Pannonia at the time influenced the Beakers genetically, hence the visible dinaricization of the Beaker's skulls. These practices survived in Pannonia even as late as the Kishaposhtag culture which was a Bell Beaker culture and whose primary funeral rite was the cremation.
What is interesting about the Kishaposhtag culture is that in many ways was a continuation of the culture of Vučedol, especially south of the lake Balaton. Although in Vucedol the inhumations were the norm, an interesting phenomenon was observed in it's latest stage where cremation burials under barrows were observed alongside inhumation. The Serbian archaeologist Nikola Tasic wrote in his "Eneolithic Cultures of Central and West Balkans" that this phenomenon can be interpreted as the beginning of the crisis provoked by the arrival of a new population in the Carpathian basin and the Balkans, a crisis that would eventually bring about the disintegration of the Vucedol culture.
Nevertheless much of the legacy of the Vucedol culture would continue living in the MBA Transdanubian Encrusted Pottery culture or the Inlaid Ceramics Culture that would form on the basis of the Kishaposhtag culture with the participation of populations from the Drava and Sava rivers , representing the traditions of the Vučedol-Zok culture.
The Encrusted Pottery culture influenced to a great extent the cultures of Gyrla Mare, Verbichoara and Tei and there was a migration event from this culture towards the Central Balkans. There is a BA site in North-West Bulgaria dated around 1600-1100 BC with pottery and urns (https://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/2015/11/05/encrusted-pottery-found-bulgaria-necropolis-excavations/#:~:text=Over%2040%20ceramic%20artefacts%20have%20 been%20unearthed&text=The%20settlement%20which%20is%20near,was%20ex cavated%20for%2018%20years.) belonging to the Encrusted Pottery culture.
This Vucedol influence on the Encrusted Pottery culture can be observed in urns in the form of birds that are very similar to the simbol of Vucedol, the Vucedol Dove:

https://i.postimg.cc/qv8Lq328/Vucedol-Culture-ceramic-dove.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


Urns in the form of birds found in Orsoya, North-West Bulgaria:

https://i.postimg.cc/CKv62wRP/201108135022430.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/VshckT8P/201108133622116.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


It's worth mentioning also that in Greek Macedonia along the Vardar/Axios river are found artefacts belonging to Gyrla Mare Culture towards the end of phase D of the Bronze Age (about 1200 BC). The population of the Gyrla-Mare culture migrated (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tK6OAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=danubian+encrusted+pottery&source=bl&ots=YscZx-9PVR&sig=ACfU3U0HZ0qSO5GNFQGhDaELitg8wp0-VA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjEvqTPwqXqAhWEgVwKHcQ1CRAQ6AEwD3oECAgQA Q#v=onepage&q=greek%20vardar%20valley&f=false) south, towards Mycenaean Greece , where the Bronze Age civilization was replaced by the period of the Dark Ages ( Heraclides , Dorian invasion ).

The cremation as was shown already seems that it spread from the Pannonian basin first towards south in the late Vucedol phase(2400-2200 BC) and in the phases BR A1, A2 and B1(1950-1600 BC) according to Reinacke it was already present in Cetina, Vatina and was slowly spreading east towards Transylvania and Dobrugia/Moldova by replacing the previous custom of inhumation practiced by the Ottomány and Wietenberg cultures and possibly a significant shift in population as well causing the disappearance of these cultures and south-east towards Oltenia with Gyrla-Mare or Dubovac-Zuto Brdo group as shown in my previous post.
At last this custom reached Dobrugia and Eastern Wallachia in the Late Bronze Age with the disappearance of the steppe culture of Coslogeni caused by the appearance of a new style ornaments, those of the Channel pottery style with possible further links to Gava-Holihrady culture which in turn was also in great part derived of elements from the Carpathian basin and whose primary funeral rite was the cremation.

This a very good map of the hotspots and places where the cremation ritual was practiced between the 14th and 9th century BC:


https://i.postimg.cc/q7VR3NkS/csm-CBAB-Karte-f057298fa3.jpg (https://postimg.cc/w12gKTRQ)




As you can see, by the Middle-Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age this custom was widespread in the Balkans, the Carpathian Basin and Northern Italy in particular and the source of spreading was the Carpathian Basin and Pannonia and what was common about all these places and groups is the similarity not only in the funeral rites but also ornaments with the Middle-Danube cultures.
In particular, for Northern Italy, we can observe a similarity with the Terramare Culture:

Comb-shaped pendants (Kammanhänger): (https://www.academia.edu/40913016/MIDDLE_BRONZE_AGE_ENCRUSTED_POTTERY_IN_WESTERN_HUN GARY)
These characteristic ornaments of the Encrusted Pottery culture have a cast, comb-like “body” with
a loop-shaped hanger as “head” and applied with a curving, arm-like middle part.
Comb-shaped pendants have been interpreted as stylized male representations.
All the known pieces of the comb-shaped pendants were recovered to the south of Lake Balaton:
a stray piece found at Bonyhád–Szöcske szántók (Pl. 63. 14), and the articles in the Zalaszabar hoard
(Pl. 62. 1–2). One comb-shaped pendant was found outside of Transdanubia alone: Ladislav Hájek
published a piece from Úherce, Czech Republic, representing a mix of variants a and c. Based on
this artefact, Hájek originates the comb-shaped pendants from the Aunjetitz culture, dating this
particular specimen (and its comparative example from Pusztasárkánytó) to the Aunjetitz period,
while he listed the one of Nagyhangos to the Koszider period.430 Amália Mozsolics – depending
on the shape of the hanger – distinguished two types of the comb-shaped pendants; relating these
artefacts closely to the Nagyhangos assemblage assigned to the BIIIb period. Bernhard Hänsel also
discussed the two types occuring in hoards and placed them to the end of the Danubian Early Bronze
Age (FD III); he pointed out that the references from Switzerland, quoted by Hájek previously,
belong to a much later period (Urnfield culture).431 The distribution of the comb-shaped pendants
and more importantly, the mould found at Lengyel – on the settlement associated with the Encrusted
Pottery culture – proves that these objects were produced locally; and thus the piece of Úherce must
be a local replica of the Transdanubian originals.
Another possible origin for the comb-shaped pendants was the Terramare culture – with
assumed Italian antecedents of the comb-shaped pendant type. However, a recent detailed study
of the Terramare settlements called attention to that this assumption is not certain either, as bone
pendants similar to variants found in the Carpathian Basin appear later, in the 2nd phase of the
Italian Middle Bronze Age (Bronzo Medio). This correlates approximately with the Koszider period
in the Carpathian Basin, whereas the bronze versions in this area only become typical from the 3rd
phase.
Concerning the original use of the comb-shaped pendants, Tibor Kovács collected their
representations on vessels and figurines among the material of the (Szeremle–) Dubovác and
the Cârna culture at the Lower Danube area.

What's interesting here is that the bearers of the Terramare culture in it's initial phases were practicing the inhumation burial and in it's later phase exactly when this comb-shaped pendants appear the cremation starts to be the norm. More recently, Italian archeologist Andrea Cardarelli has proposed (https://www.academia.edu/5808394/The_Collapse_of_the_Terramare_Culture_and_growth_o f_new_economic_and_social_System_during_the_late_B ronze_Age_in_Italy) re-evaluations of contemporaneous Greek accounts, such as that of Dionysius of Halicarnassus, and to link the Terramare culture to the Pelasgians – whom the Greeks generally equated with the Tyrrhenians and specifically, therefore, the Etruscans. This proposal in not without a base and as I've shown earlier, it can be correlated with the archaeological finds along the Vardar/Axios river in Greek Macedonia and who belong to the Trans-Danubian cultures and more specifically, Gyrla-Mare or Dubovac group from the Late Bronze Age. These finds in particular can't be associated with the Doric Greeks who only invaded the area in the 8th century BC, and by historical accounts from the Greeks themselves we know that in Greek Macedonia before the Doric Greeks, the Brygians and the Paeonians lived, especially in the area along the Vardar river.

Therefore I assume that E-Y30977 played a part mostly in the Cetina culture while E-BY3880 in the cultures of the Carpathian basin who later spread towards the Balkans.

Anyway, it's interesting about this Bulgarian like toponyms present in Montenegro. There is certainly a migration in question but when and how? I believe it's somewhere between the First and the Second Bulgarian-Vlach Empire. There are some subclades like this one, E-BY5430 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY5430) that might point to such a migration from the direction of Macedonia and possibly related with the failed uprisings of the Bulgarians.

Aspurg
26-07-20, 23:47
Any reason why I was called upon in this post of yours?

Of course I match Macedonians, both Slavic speaking Macedonians but also speakers of Eastern Romance as evidenced by the cousins in Shtip. Whether we call ourselves Македонци or Machedoni doesn't matter, we are basically the same people, a salad of Romance and Slavic influences. You might want to check Kanchov about this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_for_the_Macedonians#cite_note-11).

No particular reason, well I was just so glad I found this info, and there is more of it, I need some unpublished Ottoman defters from 1485, 1489, 1516. I was looking to find some earlier ancestors that could have lived in 15th century but I didn't see this coming..

I see now there is plenty of argument about this name in Bulgarian and other sources, some say Mongolian origin, then also a loan into Mongolian from Turkic, but it also looks similar to E.Iranic (likely ultimately). It surely came from some nomadic group into Bulgarian language.

About Kanchov I think Macedonians do have a specific identity which includes Vlach groups, in particular Moglen Vlachs seem interesting. Linguistically and genetically they are clearly related to Bulgarians. Far more than to the Serbs. Serbian influence came later with Nemanjici.



Anyway, I am not sure you can drew conclusions based solely on STR's when it comes to haplogroup such as E-V13.

I fully agree, for 95 % of clades or more you can't, however for A24066 clade which doesn't even look like a V13 (before SNP tests many were predicting V12) I can. Because what defines our clade are so many weird STR values, including very slow STR's, and basically no other clade has them. Even this Hungarian which turned out to be another CTS9320, while sharing some of our STR's, even from him we can be clearly differentiated, my cluster and the Bosnian. For some of those scientific paper samples from the Shop region I also have an additional very slow STR, triple back mutation we have (outside of Y111) and that just makes it certain.

And even within our cluster, that is A24066>A24049, we have a string of four specific mutations, and we can see, that the older haplotypes are from Vojvodina and Shop area, and my own branch is youngest.
So my clade is among the lucky ones, the two subclusters we have. But if your take E-A19247, even with Y111 it is not easy to guess..

The Balkan E-Z38456>BY4459 is also to a lesser degree such a clade, they have extremely high dys458=19/20.

The only reason though I have to utilize these more is because some populations aren't well tested yet. I have also a Montenegrin scientific sample of 404 people, but expectedly it showed just 2 people of my own family.



From those SNP tested I can see great diversity of Z17107 in the Carpathian basin and in the Western Balkans. You might have genetic cousins in Bulgaria and Macedonia but nevertheless the center of gravity of Z17107 and the whole CTS9320 I would say is the Carpathian basin so these cousins you have most probably came from that direction. In other words your line is very old in the Central and Western Balkans and you should search your ancient ancestor in the Carpathian basin not in the Steppe I believe. Although assimilation in various incoming peoples from the Steppe is possible nevertheless.

Albanians, Serbs and now Bosniaks are atm best tested, Bulgarians are good too, but it seems Bulgarians are genetically more heterogeneous, so it requires a larger sample to find all of these various clades than it does for Serbs or Albanians where you have huge former tribes, comprising huge chunk of the population. TMRCA of 700-1000 years being 3-5 % of the population.. Multiple such cases.

Regarding the CTS9320, don't forget there is a Western Bulgarian who is CTS9320* (with a bigY), hasn't uploaded to YFull (well he wouldn't gain anything atm). There is another Bulgarian with another haplotype who is CTS9320*, with an SNP Pack. Both of them have matches in Romanians from papers especially the latter (in Szekely too). It's just that as Romanians are so poorly tested we don't see that.

Ofc even Z17107 are old both in the Western Balkans and Carpathian basin.. Though yes it is possible someone was assimilated long time ago. There is one Z17107* Russian from Rostov, so he's pretty far. And ofc the Ossetian CTS9320* I found (I tested him because he was a candidate for Z17107). That Ossetian result was a surprise, maybe he holds more surprises in store (such as not being positive to all CTS9320 level SNP's)..

On the topic of Ancient cultures and CTS9320, especially Z16988 seems Illyrian definitely, though again not seen on the tree there is a Moldovan distant from all, and one Bulgarian too.. It should be Eastern Urnfield/Hallstat, the only other alternative is that it's some Western Vatina people assimilated by the Glasinac J-L283 dominated culture. And as these migrated (J-Z631), they did it too, but thats not likely, and CTS9320 is little bit older than the Glasinac boom. Glasinac though was totally inhumation, and no cremation people, just like their archaeological cousins where J-L283 was found.

On the topic of Dacian vs Pannonian, Danube was the demarcation line. The Tisza-Danube valley which was settled by the Iazyges, but we know from the sources that they pushed out the local Dacians from those areas.. Also when they describe the Dacian funerary ritual I have seen so many authors mentioning "typical Dacian La-Tene funeral".. Dacians are Hallstat descended. So regarding modern Hungary, Western half was Pannonia, Eastern half Dacia. And Danube was a significant demarcation line back in those days.




I had a post in another forum which might be of interest for you and which is ultimately connected with the cremation as a funeral rite and the expansion of E-Z1057 from the Carpathian basin:


I already read that actually, though I'm not on that forum. I do agree that E-V13 has an association with cremation practicing cultures. I still strongly believe E-V13 began in Dalmatia in proto-Cetina phase, and even these people practiced 50 % of cremation. And still although we have so many samples from BA Central Europe, no E-V13. I still maintain that E-V13 began with Dalmatian Neolithic, and proto-Cetina people, then CTS1273 literally migrated to the modern day Romania and very soon after, it spread from there. There is clear evidence Yamnaya variant called Glina III Schneckenberg was very involved with the creation of the proto-Cetina culture. And yes I think CTS1273 could have gone so far from Eastern Herzegovina, because Yamnaya people that visited Eastern Herzegovina were 100 % Nomadic. It seems they were hunting proto-Luwians (R-PF7562) around the Balkans.

Only this is consistent with the spread of V13. BY3880- clades do not seem Balkan in origin, yet great many BY3880's are. And this is especially true for your own clade, where you and this Bulgarian seem to have EBA presence in your regions. Even with TMRCA it coincides with the Glina III EBA assaults.

Some Yugoslav archaeologists made huge errors decades ago when they said there was Ezero culture in Eastern Herzegovina, there were some Ezero elements because Yamnaya nomads must have destroyed the Ezero culture and took something with them. But in recent times, proto-Cetina links with Glina III were more explored.

Of Girla-Mare, Verbiciara and some other related Vatin, Mediana (proto-Dardanian) etc. I agree, I think they were E-V13 heavy and especially various Z5018 clades, which is unlike CTS9320, a MBA clade so it must have been much more important in MBA.

So in general I would say E-V13 is EBA (the initial spread), some clades being MBA, LBA, EIA.

This forum though seems pretty dead anyway.. Might visit some other places..

Aspar
27-07-20, 15:27
@Aspurg

I am not sure about which name you are talking about?

About the Meglen Vlachs, these are descendants of the Vlach-Bulgarians that lived in the region of Meglen during the Second Vlach-Bulgarian Empire. Of these people is also Dobromir Chrys (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobromir_Chrysos). The Eastern Romance speakers were much present in the area not only in Meglen, but also Grevena, Doiran, Korca but it seems they were bulgarised or hellenised en mass. What's left of them is a few mountainous villages. These are my own people as I descend from them and whether Eastern Romance or Bulgarian speaking today, the people of south-eastern North Macedonia and those from the triangle of Kukus, Vodena and Enidze Vardar are the same people. They were like border people between Bulgaria and the Byzantine Empire. In the past they lived all the way down to Grevena but the border changed overtime. We know this because the Greek clerics, John Apokaukos and George Bardanes, writing around 1220, considered Grevena in western Macedonia a barbaric Bulgarian speaking place. Also there is an account (http://ald-bg.narod.ru/biblioteka/Homatian_zaRusaliite.htm) by Demetrios Chomatenos in connection with dances performed by people that lived near the medieval region of Molisc, Μολισκό, near Grevena in Greek Macedonia, exactly where the village of Kontsikon is but also another village with a similar name, that of Koniskos, an account that dates between 1215-1235 AD.The original account is in Greek while the link I posted is a Bulgarian translation of the original account.
In the account Demetrios Chomatenos gives details to an occurrence in which a murder was committed. Namely, during a festival called Rusalia(Ρουσάλια), in which the dancers performed a warrior dance, one of the actors somehow managed to hit a shepherd with a wooden stick. The shepherd without any remorse pulled a knife and gave a blow to the dancer called Chrisil(Χρύσηλος) straight to the hearth killing him on the spot. Then Chomatenos gives details how the Archbishop of Bulgaria(Archbishopric of Ohrid) condemns these games among whom Bota and Brumalia(Βότα και Βρουμάλια) as well as the aforementioned Rusalia(Ρουσάλια) and calls them pagan debauchery. This unfortunate Chrysil had a name with a Greek origin(Chrys) golden, and a typical Bulgarian suffix(il) which can be witnessed in names such as Boril, Strahil and so on.


This account is very important for my people because Rusalia is a national festival that was performed by the Slavic and Eastern Romance speakers in the region of Greek Macedonia plus the south-eastern area of today North Macedonia and south-west Bulgaria.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfHeIxk5G20


Similar dances exist among the Albanians and the Romanians as well but not exactly the same and are not know under the name Rusalia.


And this is important because Rusalia is a legacy directly from the ancient Roman festival called Rosalia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosalia_(festival)). In Imperial-era Macedonia, several inscriptions(both in Latin and Greek) mention the Rosalia as a commemorative festival funded by bequests to groups such as a vicianus, a village or neighborhood association , a legally constituted association, often having a religious character , or symposium, in this sense a drinking and social club. The best account probably comes from an inscription in connection with the Attis myth given by the Christian apologist Arnobius and the happening was in Phrygia:
The next day the dendrophores laid the tree to rest with noisy music that represented the Corybantes, youths who performed armed dances and in mythology served as guardians for infant gods.
These warrior dances are in direct connection with what the Greek general Xenophon witnessed during his stay among the Thracians:

The Greek general and military historian Xenophon during his march within Persia and Thrace in 401-399 BC has added in Anabasis (VI, 1, 4-6): ‘After sacrificing some of the oxen which they have captured and other animals too, they provided a feast which was quite a good one, though they ate reclining on low couches and drunk out of horn cups which they had come across the country. When they had poured the libations and sung the Paean, first of all two Thracians stood up and performed a dance to the flute, wearing full armour. They leapt high into the air with great agility and brandished their swords. In the end one of them, as everybody thought, struck the other one, who fell to the ground, acting all the time. ... Then some more Thracians carried the stripped man out, , as though he was dead, though actually he had not been hurt in the slightest. ...(VII, 4, 4) It was then (in winter) easy to see why the Thracians wear fox skins round their heads and ears, and why they have tunics that cover their legs and not only the upper part of the body, and why, when they are on horseback, they wear long cloaks reaching down to their feet instead of our short coats.’


What's also important from the Chomatenos account is that we find out that some other festivals performed during Roman times was also performed by my ancestors during the time Chomatenos wrote although forgotten today, most probably under pressure from the Church as witnessed in the account. And that is the festival of Brumalia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brumalia) but also the offering of Vota (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Votum). The Balkan Sprachbund is also evidence that there was a great mixing and we can speak of Vlach-Bulgarian people. The lexicon is clearly Slavic derived but the grammar which is the backbone of a language it's nothing Slavic. In fact it's direct inheritance from the Romance languages of the Balkans.

This is a direct evidence of a pre-Slavic connection with the Roman Balkans of my own people and direct legacy in it's folklore. Therefore I as a descendant of these people am certain that my ancient ancestor was a Roman citizen that lived somewhere in the borders of the Roman Empire in the Balkans. Before that we can't speak for certain unless we get more evidences which we don't have atm.

Anyway, the biggest problem we have thus far is the lack of aDNA from the Balkans. The oldest BY3880 we have thus far is the clearly Scythianised Getae sample scy197 hence we can conclude that BY3880-FGC44169 was indeed present in the IA Lower Danube people. These people were probably absorbed en mass by the Slavs of Candesti-Ipotesti culture hence no surprise of the big diversity of E-FGC44169 clades in Bulgarians. Probably my BA Bulgarian cousin's lineage was part of these same Getae people. In that context my own lineage probably should be traced among related people to Getae who penetrated the Central Balkans instead of the Eastern ones.

Of course this is speculation until we get aDNA from EBA, MBA cultures of the Balkans which unfortunately we don't have however my own assumption is that most of the E-V13 clades entered the Balkans at the end of EBA and the beginning of MBA from direction of the Carpathian basin and in that context they should be in close relationship with the Bell Beaker people, not the Yamnaya guys. At the end of the day it seems the Bell Beakers were the big winners, not the Yamnaya people who didn't leave much of a legacy outside of the Balkans evidenced by the Z2103 Yamnaya rich y-dna lineage.

Aspurg
27-07-20, 17:42
@ Aspar

It's Huban, present in Bulgarian as adjective "hubav", in Macedonian without "h". It is old-Bulgarian, being in a bolyar Huban from 1207-1218, though I see Bulgarian linguists connect this with Mongol Ghobay with the same meaning, ultimately likely Eastern Iranian. My ancestors left the Shop more than 750 years ago so them having this name in 15th century means they had it in 13th century too. Considering the Mongols only started assaulting the Europe after the time of Boril, no way it is from them. But among the so called "Black Hats", where remnants of Pechenegs, Uzi (Torkils), Berendei gathered, there were also some tribes hypothesised to have been of Mongol origin, might be another connection to Berendei (archaeologically they mostly descended of Pechenegs) of my own. These people settled in Bulgaria, not only settled but they must have had some higher status, as evidenced by the fact that Ivan Asen II was ktetor of the church in one Berende village. I definitely want people tested from those villages (there are two). In any case it cannot be Ottoman (from Persian xub), as it is attested from before, was not common in Turkish, plus as one Bulgarian linguist said no Anatolian Turk knows what hub is while every Bulgarian does. And it doesn't seem Bulgar from their names. Magyar Conqueror had a name Huba, so potentially it might be related to Bulgarian form, Hungarian sources say it is of unknown or Turkic origin.
This personal name was rare in Bulgarians but present especially around Tarnovo, even next to the Beadnos Fortress (http://visit.guide-bulgaria.com/a/719/beadnos_fortress.htm), so it looks probably through the bolyars it entered the Bulgarian language.
One Martenitsa legend (https://bunt.bg/2020/03/01/za-proizhoda-na-martenitsata-legendata-za-han-kubrat/) mentions Huba as daughter of Kubrat, but I read this was made up 100 years ago. And that the celebration of Martenitsa is paleo-Balkan related.


Thanks for that info about Mogleno-Vlachs. I read about Grevena some time ago, there was one haplotype I was looking into, likely E-CTS9320>BY4404 clade, Greek surname. I saw that mention of Bulgarian speakers there in early 13th century.

Very interesting about Rosalia, it does seem Thraco-Phrygian related. Apparently linguistically Mogleno-Vlachs are closer to Romanians than to Aromanians. Your result thus far seems like the only Moglen proper result, where you have some Aromanians as matches, so looking at that they have some connection. Of course, your people what used to be a very widespread Eastern Romance group, and especially in the area between Serbia and Bulgaria they were very prominent. Linguists attribute their presence to significant differences between Serbo-Croatian and Bulgaro-Macedonian. They were likely massively assimilated only in Medieval, around 1100-1200. And ofc Vlachs played significant influence in creation of II Bulgarian Empire.
You also see Slavic influence in early Vlachs with names such as Dobromir, but also I believe in earliest Thessalian Vlachs we have Slavic names. Major Aromanian Y-DNA lineage is R-YP4278 (10 out of 65 tested from Stip), also found in Herzegovina Serbs who descend from 14th century Vlach Kresojevići tribe.

Of Western Romance speakers, what is left of them is mostly in Dalmatian coastal area (in modern Croats), where they were even a separate group until the Medieval, masters of the sea like the Illyrians/Liburnii. Much of the hinterground was deserted, hence such strong dominance of Slavic DNA today.

About ancient V13, ofc we lack the aDNA required. It is true that the Yamnaya left little legacy but the fact is people like Greeks were Yamnaya derived, and we also have some E-CTS5856* (probably another BY3880*) in Cyprus. And Bell Beaker influence wasn't as large in the Eastern portion. Also it was these Yamnaya related groups that made various incursions in EBA around the Eastern Balkans, Central Balkans, even modern day Albania. That does correspond to various basal BY3880* clades we see today. Cetina culture was actually directly BB influenced but the funerary ritual (which is very important) was of Glina III, and they were politically aligned with the Yamnaya people. With some BB groups next to them they had no interaction. I think Cetina was just the E-Y37092 clade. So as Raf suggested long ago I agree with Cetina, it's just some of these Eastern Cetina relatives such as Belotic-Bela Crkva etc to which he connected the spread of V13 clades actually were not derived from Cetina but from Schneckenberg culture. Similarity with Cetina was due to GS element in Cetina..

The only culture having something BB and being active in the area was Cetina (but it wasn't BB proper in any way). And the second seems J-L283 dominated culture with whom Cetina had almost no contacts. I just don't see BB's carrying basal BY3880 lineages around Central/Eastern Balkans. I have somewhere a map of Glina III incursions (can't find it atm), and does mimic the basal BY3880 (not these younger clades such as Z5018 or CTS9320) spread.

Hopefully there will be aDNA results from there too, but again Romanians lag not only in testing people but in aDNA too, though there are many hundreds or thousands of samples from that timeframe.

Progon
27-07-20, 22:32
How do u explain Sicilians belonging quite a lot under this subclade: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/ => some rare branches under this (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY3880/) which is neither Z5017/Z5018.

Aspar
28-07-20, 16:05
@ Aspar
It's Huban, present in Bulgarian as adjective "hubav", in Macedonian without "h". It is old-Bulgarian, being in a bolyar Huban from 1207-1218, though I see Bulgarian linguists connect this with Mongol Ghobay with the same meaning, ultimately likely Eastern Iranian. My ancestors left the Shop more than 750 years ago so them having this name in 15th century means they had it in 13th century too. Considering the Mongols only started assaulting the Europe after the time of Boril, no way it is from them. But among the so called "Black Hats", where remnants of Pechenegs, Uzi (Torkils), Berendei gathered, there were also some tribes hypothesised to have been of Mongol origin, might be another connection to Berendei (archaeologically they mostly descended of Pechenegs) of my own. These people settled in Bulgaria, not only settled but they must have had some higher status, as evidenced by the fact that Ivan Asen II was ktetor of the church in one Berende village. I definitely want people tested from those villages (there are two). In any case it cannot be Ottoman (from Persian xub), as it is attested from before, was not common in Turkish, plus as one Bulgarian linguist said no Anatolian Turk knows what hub is while every Bulgarian does. And it doesn't seem Bulgar from their names. Magyar Conqueror had a name Huba, so potentially it might be related to Bulgarian form, Hungarian sources say it is of unknown or Turkic origin.
This personal name was rare in Bulgarians but present especially around Tarnovo, even next to the Beadnos Fortress (http://visit.guide-bulgaria.com/a/719/beadnos_fortress.htm), so it looks probably through the bolyars it entered the Bulgarian language.
One Martenitsa legend (https://bunt.bg/2020/03/01/za-proizhoda-na-martenitsata-legendata-za-han-kubrat/) mentions Huba as daughter of Kubrat, but I read this was made up 100 years ago. And that the celebration of Martenitsa is paleo-Balkan related.
Thanks for that info about Mogleno-Vlachs. I read about Grevena some time ago, there was one haplotype I was looking into, likely E-CTS9320>BY4404 clade, Greek surname. I saw that mention of Bulgarian speakers there in early 13th century.
Very interesting about Rosalia, it does seem Thraco-Phrygian related. Apparently linguistically Mogleno-Vlachs are closer to Romanians than to Aromanians. Your result thus far seems like the only Moglen proper result, where you have some Aromanians as matches, so looking at that they have some connection. Of course, your people what used to be a very widespread Eastern Romance group, and especially in the area between Serbia and Bulgaria they were very prominent. Linguists attribute their presence to significant differences between Serbo-Croatian and Bulgaro-Macedonian. They were likely massively assimilated only in Medieval, around 1100-1200. And ofc Vlachs played significant influence in creation of II Bulgarian Empire.
You also see Slavic influence in early Vlachs with names such as Dobromir, but also I believe in earliest Thessalian Vlachs we have Slavic names. Major Aromanian Y-DNA lineage is R-YP4278 (10 out of 65 tested from Stip), also found in Herzegovina Serbs who descend from 14th century Vlach Kresojevići tribe.
Of Western Romance speakers, what is left of them is mostly in Dalmatian coastal area (in modern Croats), where they were even a separate group until the Medieval, masters of the sea like the Illyrians/Liburnii. Much of the hinterground was deserted, hence such strong dominance of Slavic DNA today.
About ancient V13, ofc we lack the aDNA required. It is true that the Yamnaya left little legacy but the fact is people like Greeks were Yamnaya derived, and we also have some E-CTS5856* (probably another BY3880*) in Cyprus. And Bell Beaker influence wasn't as large in the Eastern portion. Also it was these Yamnaya related groups that made various incursions in EBA around the Eastern Balkans, Central Balkans, even modern day Albania. That does correspond to various basal BY3880* clades we see today. Cetina culture was actually directly BB influenced but the funerary ritual (which is very important) was of Glina III, and they were politically aligned with the Yamnaya people. With some BB groups next to them they had no interaction. I think Cetina was just the E-Y37092 clade. So as Raf suggested long ago I agree with Cetina, it's just some of these Eastern Cetina relatives such as Belotic-Bela Crkva etc to which he connected the spread of V13 clades actually were not derived from Cetina but from Schneckenberg culture. Similarity with Cetina was due to GS element in Cetina..
The only culture having something BB and being active in the area was Cetina (but it wasn't BB proper in any way). And the second seems J-L283 dominated culture with whom Cetina had almost no contacts. I just don't see BB's carrying basal BY3880 lineages around Central/Eastern Balkans. I have somewhere a map of Glina III incursions (can't find it atm), and does mimic the basal BY3880 (not these younger clades such as Z5018 or CTS9320) spread.
Hopefully there will be aDNA results from there too, but again Romanians lag not only in testing people but in aDNA too, though there are many hundreds or thousands of samples from that timeframe.

@ Aspar
It's Huban, present in Bulgarian as adjective "hubav", in Macedonian without "h". It is old-Bulgarian, being in a bolyar Huban from 1207-1218, though I see Bulgarian linguists connect this with Mongol Ghobay with the same meaning, ultimately likely Eastern Iranian. My ancestors left the Shop more than 750 years ago so them having this name in 15th century means they had it in 13th century too. Considering the Mongols only started assaulting the Europe after the time of Boril, no way it is from them. But among the so called "Black Hats", where remnants of Pechenegs, Uzi (Torkils), Berendei gathered, there were also some tribes hypothesised to have been of Mongol origin, might be another connection to Berendei (archaeologically they mostly descended of Pechenegs) of my own. These people settled in Bulgaria, not only settled but they must have had some higher status, as evidenced by the fact that Ivan Asen II was ktetor of the church in one Berende village. I definitely want people tested from those villages (there are two). In any case it cannot be Ottoman (from Persian xub), as it is attested from before, was not common in Turkish, plus as one Bulgarian linguist said no Anatolian Turk knows what hub is while every Bulgarian does. And it doesn't seem Bulgar from their names. Magyar Conqueror had a name Huba, so potentially it might be related to Bulgarian form, Hungarian sources say it is of unknown or Turkic origin.
This personal name was rare in Bulgarians but present especially around Tarnovo, even next to the Beadnos Fortress (http://visit.guide-bulgaria.com/a/719/beadnos_fortress.htm), so it looks probably through the bolyars it entered the Bulgarian language.
One Martenitsa legend (https://bunt.bg/2020/03/01/za-proizhoda-na-martenitsata-legendata-za-han-kubrat/) mentions Huba as daughter of Kubrat, but I read this was made up 100 years ago. And that the celebration of Martenitsa is paleo-Balkan related.
Thanks for that info about Mogleno-Vlachs. I read about Grevena some time ago, there was one haplotype I was looking into, likely E-CTS9320>BY4404 clade, Greek surname. I saw that mention of Bulgarian speakers there in early 13th century.
Very interesting about Rosalia, it does seem Thraco-Phrygian related. Apparently linguistically Mogleno-Vlachs are closer to Romanians t
han to Aromanians. Your result thus far seems like the only Moglen proper result, where you have some Aromanians as matches, so looking at that they have some connection. Of course, your people what used to be a very widespread Eastern Romance group, and especially in the area between Serbia and Bulgaria they were very prominent. Linguists attribute their presence to significant differences between Serbo-Croatian and Bulgaro-Macedonian. They were likely massively assimilated only in Medieval, around 1100-1200. And ofc Vlachs played significant influence in creation of II Bulgarian Empire.
You also see Slavic influence in early Vlachs with names such as Dobromir, but also I believe in earliest Thessalian Vlachs we have Slavic names. Major Aromanian Y-DNA lineage is R-YP4278 (10 out of 65 tested from Stip), also found in Herzegovina Serbs who descend from 14th century Vlach Kresojevići tribe.
Of Western Romance speakers, what is left of them is mostly in Dalmatian coastal area (in modern Croats), where they were even a separate group until the Medieval, masters of the sea like the Illyrians/Liburnii. Much of the hinterground was deserted, hence such strong dominance of Slavic DNA today.
About ancient V13, ofc we lack the aDNA required. It is true that the Yamnaya left little legacy but the fact is people like Greeks were Yamnaya derived, and we also have some E-CTS5856* (probably another BY3880*) in Cyprus. And Bell Beaker influence wasn't as large in the Eastern portion. Also it was these Yamnaya related groups that made various incursions in EBA around the Eastern Balkans, Central Balkans, even modern day Albania. That does correspond to various basal BY3880* clades we see today. Cetina culture was actually directly BB influenced but the funerary ritual (which is very important) was of Glina III, and they were politically aligned with the Yamnaya people. With some BB groups next to them they had no interaction. I think Cetina was just the E-Y37092 clade. So as Raf suggested long ago I agree with Cetina, it's just some of these Eastern Cetina relatives such as Belotic-Bela Crkva etc to which he connected the spread of V13 clades actually were not derived from Cetina but from Schneckenberg culture. Similarity with Cetina was due to GS element in Cetina..
The only culture having something BB and being active in the area was Cetina (but it wasn't BB proper in any way). And the second seems J-L283 dominated culture with whom Cetina had almost no contacts. I just don't see BB's carrying basal BY3880 lineages around Central/Eastern Balkans. I have somewhere a map of Glina III incursions (can't find it atm), and does mimic the basal BY3880 (not these younger clades such as Z5018 or CTS9320) spread.
Hopefully there will be aDNA results from there too, but again Romanians lag not only in testing people but in aDNA too, though there are many hundreds or thousands of samples from that timeframe.
Yes 'хубав/убав' is a word in Bulgarian/Macedonian that entered during the last thousand years most probably.
In the Bulgarian Wiktionary I see that it's assumed that the word entered in the middle ages from the Cuman 'ghub' with the same meaning. In that regard it's for sure not from the Mongols who didn't even had an influence and contacts with the Bulgarians but from the Cumans who indeed played major part in the Second Vlach-Bulgarian Empire. Most probably this Huban was himself mostly of Cuman extraction. So my opinion is that this is not a Bulgar word because it's a late loan but rather Cuman one.
Up to the end of the 12th century and the beginning of the 13th the Cumans lived in what is now Wallachia and the land was known as Cumania. That pretty much is clear from historical sources. It seems that the onslaught by the Mongols deserted much of the land and the Cumans migrated mostly in Bulgaria and Hungary. It seems also that the Cumans heavily settled in the Shop region where we find concentration of Cuman derived toponyms such as Kumanovo. This might have led proto-Romanians that lived in the Shop region up to that point and who acted as a border between the Serbs and the Bulgarians to start migrating into Wallachia and other parts of today Romania and Moldova. Probably these proto-Romanians were part of a larger chain that stretched from Danube on the border between Bulgaria, Serbia and Romania all the way down to Macedonia and Thessaly therefore that might explain why the Romanian is closer to the Meglenitic Vlach and not the Aromanian who was not part of this chain but likely was isolated in the mountains of South Albania and Epirus or what was known as Upper Vlachia in the historical sources.
About Martinka it is an ancient tradition that dates to pre-Slavic Balkan as per the most investigators and ethnographers. The relation to the Bulgars is just a modern ethno-romantism who tends to prescribe everything to only one element just because they carry the name of that particular element.
By the way Meglenitic Vlach is not closer to Romanian. It is actually closer both in grammar and lexicon to Aromanian than Romanian. But the Romanian it's closer to Meglenitic than it is to Aromanian. This was spot on by Weigand but also Theodor Capidan who wrote a lot about Meglenitic and Aromanian. The big difference is that Aromanian was more isolated from Slavic speakers and had more influence from Greek and Albanian while Romanian and Meglenitic had more Slavic influence. In that regard it looks like the proto-Romanians who lived in Shop were actually the border between the Bulgarians and the Serbs. Most of the Meglenitic speakers were probably living in Macedonia even before the Slavic migrations. All three groups proto-Romanians, Meglenites and Aromanians probably lived close to the main Roman roads such as the western halfs of Via Militaris and Via Egnatia plus the connection between these two roads along the Morava-Vardar rivers and acted as border men and guards. That the military and the guards were mostly Latin speakers and under Latin administration is a well known fact so my opinion is that this have something to do with Justinian's efforts with strengthening of the defensive lines and the rise of the Coman culture which many historians think it was a culture of Latin speakers. That probably goes hand in hand with great many Latin derived toponyms in Albania and North Macedonia. Plus we have the famous 'Torna torna Fratre' deep in the Balkans that only confirmes that Latin speakers did live south of the Jirecek line.
Therefore the Slavic influence is not a surprise among the Meglen Vlachs and the proto-Romanians because the most affected territories by the Bulgarian expansion were the territories exactly where they lived. On the other hand the Aromanians who lived more isolated in Epirus were less affected and some of their recorded names were typically Latin derived such as the name of a Vlach by the name Constantine Aurelian who was accused of raping a Greek girl and attacking her father in the region of Naupaktos, an account dated to 1221 by John Apokaukos, metropolitan of Naupaktos.
As for basal E-BY3880 clades you might be right and the only way to know this is aDNA from Glina III Schneckenberg. However about Cetina I am sure that I read somewhere that they practiced Cremation as well especially a Cremation cist burial under Tumulus. From the same source I've read that the Dorians who practiced the same Cremation cist burial was inherited directly from Cetina. Plus there are some others elements that point to that direction such as the use of Illyrian spears etc. There is still no official confirmation but I think that Eurogenes/Davidski mentioned on Anthrogenica that in a paper yet to come about the ancient Greeks, there is one Z2103 Mycenaean and other L51 which is the major Bell Beaker line. If these rumors are true than there is also major influence in ancient Greeks that is Bell Beaker in origin and that probably arrived from Cetina culture direction. That was visible even with the existing Mycenaean samples as the youngest of them I9033 dated to 1416-1280 BCE and unlike the other samples unearthed in western Pelloponnese plots northern than the other Mycenaeans in the direction of MBA Croatia. So let's see what the future papers bring.
Although I agree that E-V13 might have steamed from Neolithic Croatia. In my first post you can see that there was a major Vucedol influence south of the Balaton lake under which influence the later Encrusted Pottery Culture evolved and which also developed on the base of Kisapostag culture which was a BB culture. So even though it steamed from the Vucedol culture it's later subclades were probably dispersed from the direction of the Carpathian Basin with some even migrating to the Steppe.
Anyways to not kidnap your thread it was enough speculation from me.

Aspar
28-07-20, 16:48
Also it's interesting what you describe as Bulgarian-like toponymy in the region around Montenegro. Unlike the Greeks the literacy of the medieval Slavic people was on much lower level so we don't have accounts about many such migrations that might given birth to such toponymy.
As a lineage that might have migrated from Bulgarian speaking area to Montenegro i have one in mind: E-BY5430 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY5430). Probably there are more such examples.

It's also interesting that the Serbs have such a low diversity in many lineages. I've read somewhere that during the attacks of the Bulgarians from the First Bulgarian Empire great many Serbs were taken captives and transferred in Bulgaria thus the land of Serbia was greatly deserted. After the collapse of the First Bulgarian Empire and the failed uprisings such as the one of Petar Delyan, probably many Bulgarians and Vlachs did migrated to Serbia and Montenegro under pressure from the Byzantnes thus mixing with the original Serbs there. I always believed that the original Serbs were much like the Croats and Bosnians of today however the mixing with the Bulgarians and Vlachs who migrated there plus mixing with the Torlakian people after the expansion of the Serbian state east of the Morava river made them more Bulgarian-like.

Aspurg
28-07-20, 21:02
@ Aspar

Thanks for that input, I didn't notice this Cuman claim. And it seems quite legit as it refers to Codex Cumanicus. And it seems closer to Bulgarian than Mongol form. Slavicist Wilhelm Tomaschek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Tomaschek) first made this Mongol connection long time ago. I guess CCum wasn't translated back then. There were many bolyars of Cuman extraction, and alongside this Huban was for ex. certain Chernoglav, this is not the Slavic name that was common, but for example in 1282. the Serbs captured Tatar leader Crna Glava or "black head" so likely direct translation from Karabash. In any case it doesn't look Bulgar as it wasn't attested in Bulgars.

Pechenegs were too more Kipchak than Oghuz from what I've read, especially the Berendei, who were often confused with the Cumans by many authors (though they were different).
EDIT: I found this Cuman "ghob/ghub" in Codex Cumanicus, so indeed it must be from such direction. And also the Mongol ghobay is related to it as they all have the same meaning.

Regarding E-BY5430, ofc for some time it is clear to me their ancestry is from Macedonia. Though they do not quite match this Bulgarian toponym concentration, they are from Pljevlja, according to some claims their ancestor was Sipahi Vojin/his kin, who was ktetor of Holy Trinity monastery in Pljevlja (http://Monastery of the Holy Trinity of Pljevlja) in 1590s. So they seem also like some older family like mine.

On the other hand this particular Bulgarian concentration is on the Southern Peshter area, indeed the very name Pešter is Bulgarian (Serbs use Pećina for cave), some people of my cluster tested are directly from some of these, for example one from Boroštica (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boro%C5%A1tica). Also for example Raždaginja (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C5%BEdaginja), you see instantly linguistic difference of Bulgaro-Macedonian sht/zhd vs Serb Ć/Đ (ch/dj), there is indeed in Bulgaria river and village (https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D1%89%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0) with such name.
Also to add Bolyare which doesn't need much explanation, these are mostly concentrated around the mountain I mentioned: Žilindar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BDilindar) which seems surely Kipchak Turkic (https://kk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%96%D1%8B%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%80), meaning "snake", one peak of Zhilindar is called "snakes head"/zmijska glava. In 1254. Bulgarian ruler wanted to take the Dalmatia, he had a pact with Dubrovnik and Hum ruler Radoslav (also Nemanjić), and Bulgarian army came to Bijelo Polje, but eventually after short conflict things were back to normal, and Ragusans got what they wanted. Radoslav dissapeared as did the independence of Zachumlia. Serb ruler apparently swore oath of allegiance to Hungarian ruler back then.

I found indication my family were musellems in the early 16th/late 15th century. That was an old Ottoman cavalry order (from the days of Osman), some Christians were recruited, in this instance it should be an indication they were very good with horses (as two traditions of my family claim).

And it seems my own family weren't even vlach by status. Now when you mention greater Balkan influence in Serbs than in Bosnians/Croats, this is indeed due to many factors. One, Vlach migration from the Central Balkans, then some Slavic Y-DNA locals already in 14th century adopted the Vlach status. most descendants of Herzegovina Medieval Vlach katuns have Slavic Y-DNA, however some do have clearly non-Slavic ancestry. Then the Ottomans came, and basically in late 15th century most of Serbs were Vlachs or they were in such status.
Actually most of Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia migrated as Vlach groups with the Ottomans (Serbs from Herzegovina are very old there though). These people had privileges, their leaders were officially sipahis etc. So no wonder especially Bosnian Bosniaks always referred to Serbs as "Vlachs". For Serbs under the Ottomans being of vlach status was advantageous in many ways. Also Nemanjic expansion Eastwards caused mingling with various Shop/Central Balkan groups, largely Serb I-Z17855 became part of Serbian ethnos.
So due to numerous factors Serbs, indeed originally likely similar to Croats became more SE shifted.

Ofc there were those early Bulgarian incursions, per some Serbia was even totally deserted, but also much of this genetic homogeneity in Serbs is for the same reason as in Albanians, tribal culture and domination of stronger tribes over the weaker tribes. Such culture used to be very common in Montenegro, and in Herzegovina little bit earlier. Still much of Serbs trace their ancestry to Herzegovina and Montenegro. Actually Western half of modern Montenegro is Herzegovina. Montenegro was a small core area of Montenegro 300 years ago..


Regarding the Meglen, very interesting, I find them puzzling. So they are closer to Aromanians. I know in the past some have hypothesized they have some Steppe input, as in Moglen both Pechenegs and Cumans settled. There are some Greeks under I-Y125026>Y128714 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y125026/) , they are from Theodorakion (https://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%86%D0%B8)village not far from you but I guess they aren't of Moglen ancestry. I-Y125026 occurs in some Serbs, Bulgarians too, so should be Slavic, but there is one Bessenyei from Hungary and also one from anonymous Cumanian sample from Hungary so not sure what's their ancestry, especially as in Todorci though most had Slavic names there were few which looked Turkic. This is a clade likely descended of Daco-Celtic Kotini/Anarti and they expanded largely with Slavs, some likely moved with Cumano-Pechenegs.

Thus far Aromanians seem genetically isolated, even their most common J-L283 clade is still very distant from Albanians.

Yes Shop might have been the starting point for Proto-Romanians, I don't deny some potential earlier presence of some Latin groups in Romanian areas (like Transylvania), but it seems Balkan incomers had great influence.

Regarding Cetina, the did practice cremation combined with inhumation. On the other hand their neighbor culture where J-L283 was found practiced exclusively inhumation, as did their direct descendants such as Glasinac culture. Archaeologists say these two were clearly different populations. Thanks to these inhumation burials of Cetina I believe there is enough material to test these eventually. Now regarding their Tumulus burial, both Cetina and Posušje cultures had it. But it's origin is Glina III, almost identical burials. This sort of burial was totally unknown to the BB's. J-L283 were likely originally Bell Beakeroid derived, and you can see in autosomal profile of EBA/LBA Dalmatians that these people are BB derived not Yamnaya. But cyst Tumulus was imposed by the Yamnaya it seems.

Regarding L51 in Greeks, Dorians could have had the L51 easily, because it was the L51 heavy central European groups who were among the instigators of the LBA collapse. That's no surprise but based on linguistics Greek should be distantly related to Armenian and like Armenians originally Z2103.

Yes I read about those unofficial finds, it will be interesting to see what was the exact context etc. Again Greeks are not so well tested so thus far few of these clades have been identified.

Aspurg
08-12-20, 00:27
FYI, the Montenegrin A24066* fella above those Bosnians that has selected Pecheneg as his ethnicity, per his family tradition they identified with an Albanian clan, that's to some extent predominantly Serbian speaking now. So, they most probably hail from the Albanian tribal regions. As for A19235 Hungarians, there is an Albanian from central Albania above them on Yfull as well.

Firstly I'm not "Montenegrin". I wasn't born there neither my father.. Secondly I guess very few members of my clan consuider themselves Montenegrins. We have nothing to do with them.

We are Medieval Serbian nobility descended of Bulgarian Berendei descended nobility.


How many times do I have to debunk your idiocies Skerdilaid?? (btw haven't you been banned from Anthrogenica but you registered another sock-puppet there) There is no A24066 in Albania, in Kuchi tribal region, Albanian tribal regions and chances of it ever existing there are miniscule.

This family tradition is worthless and made up 100 years ago, the older tradition that is 150 years old makes no mention of Kuqi. Facts: -
1. eldest member of my genetic cluster had a completely foreign Cuman name (literally nobody in the Western Balkan other than him had it of data thus far).
2. Other clans surname from a Bulgarian language derived village who never heard of Kuchi is Pecheneg, only such surname in Serbs. Dates at least to 18th century but onomastic evidence of another village related to it suggests 14th century.
3. As is possibly mine. Because it is similar to one of the most common Pecheneg names. It doesn't have parallels.
4. We have relatives 200 km to the East in a village settled by the Pechenegs or Berendei to be precise
5. The Pecheneg clans name settled there is identical to the surname of another family related to me.

Besides do you know how many different families in the area have Kuchi tradition?? Alot, 10 or more hg's.. Kuchi must have been the most genetically diverse place on the planet..:laughing:

Can your brain comprehend 2+2=4??

A24066>A24049 cluster are old population of Peshter highlands who live there from the 13th century.




Regarding BY4526, the Y20805* Serb is with origin from Shkoder region, North Albania. Same thing with the Y20805* Albanian fella. There is another fella with origin from that region (Kuçi area) that identifies as Bosnian today (from Sanxhak) that will most definitely end up being Y20805* as well. So, you have three fellas from the same region sharing a tmrca of 2400ybp.


Again many Serbs have tradition about descending from Shkoder region, in this instance thus far no such people, albeit unlike my clade his is much tougher to spot. But his closest relative is Bulgarian.




Definitely some variance in that zone with both subclades that in no way shape or form fits with the Slavic movements.

You as a longtime promotor of E-V13 = Pelasgian slaves garbage has no business opening your mouth about E-V13. You haven't got a clue about your own haplogroup, the R-Z2705, let alone others.


What we are now seeing is the death of your E-V13 = Pelasgian garbage which is actually equal to spitting at E-V13. And you are administrator of your dying Albanian bloodlines (Albanians from Macedonia and Kosovo) project. Fortunately people at Rrenjet are far more adept than you are. The only person knowledgeable person about genetics you have is Trojet.

CTS9320 is proto-Thracian, proto-Dacian.


New result from North-East Hungary: Z17107+, Z38456-, no links with others.


Russian Z17107, Z38456-, likely Y130991-
Ukrainian cluster Z17107, Z38456-, likely Y130991+
3 Hungarian clades with no close relation to each other.


Btw A24066 exists in Carpathians as explained, just I have Romanians to thank for the lack of such sample thus far at YFull.

As you haven't got a clue about anything you chose to make personal attacks against me on a forum where I can't respond. CTS9320 and Z17107 were born in Carpathians, deal with it.

And chances are good all of your Albanian Z38456 are Carpi..


There is already one Hungarian Besenyo who is E-V13 so why is this some fuss at all.. For those of you who claim that all E-V13 are Pelasgian slaves from Albania it is. I really feel sorry for those Albanian E-V13+ people who is researching their haplogroup..

I see your post had been thanked by rafc, and Riverman.. LOL

I doubt they would have been thanking it had they seen some of your earlier "jewels" you posted about E-V13.

broder
08-12-20, 22:28
Yes, Nobility lol. And I am Santa Clause ;)
Fact remains that we have ethnographic literature that confirm what I stated. According to the traditions that still exist among your family, your ancestor came down to Bjelo Polje from Kuqi area, more specifically from the Drekalovici branch (Popovici). Didn't say you were Montenegrin, I just mentioned it because of the flag on Yfull. I simply informed them because your 'Pecheneg' label may throw them off.
Haplogroup discrepancies are very common in all Albanian clans, so Kuqi in this regard is nothing special. I for example as a Thaç don't belong to the Thaçi cluster from the mother land, but that doesn't mean I am Portuguese. What's important here regarding the cluster in question, is that you originate from that zone. The rest of your drivel is irrelevant.
Don't get emotional on me now for doing my homework, my lost shiptar brother ;)

Aspurg
09-12-20, 00:58
Yes, Nobility lol. And I am Santa Clause ;)
Fact remains that we have ethnographic literature that confirm what I stated. According to the traditions that still exist among your family, your ancestor came down to Bjelo Polje from Kuqi area,

It doesn't matter what recently made up traditions say. He did not come to Bijelo Polje from Kuchi area. My ancestor born in 1570/1580s, died in 1645 being attested in pre Battle of Wiena times of 1683 automatically is extremely unlikely to have arrived from Kuchi or any other Brda region. Anybody with any knowledge knows that very well. His first name also was very Peshterian, most common there at that time, extremely rare in Montenegro, so he was certainly born on Peshter or his father was.

Furthermore my family had in 17th century higher status. Check out what some knowledgeable person said 5 years ago about that Kuchi claim, before DNA.. Because of our wealth he could not have possibly arrived from Kuchi, he must have been in the area for generations..

Genetic results have firmly showed that my family represent the old Medieval population of the Peshter plateau. Families nobody in my family ever expected to be related to came out as genetically close to us. And when WGS tests are done of these it will show 700 years TMRCA in the area. Without my clade ever existing.

The you "conclude" any E-V13 is basically Albanian even if his closest link to Albanians is Early Iron Age. And in this case closest link to Kuchi is Early Bronze Age.

You use that idiotic reasoning for your own 1 man 500 AD cluster. But you search for the SNP after SNP.. But ofc as you dys385=11-11 admin and "patron" of the E-V13 "Pelasgian slaves" all E-V13 is same to you they are.

Based on our results my closest SNP genetic links are:
- 500 ybp Peshter Plateau (Berendei surname) from Bulgarian village,
-- 700 ybp Pedhter plateau Bulgarian derived village
--- Vranje region from a scientific paper likely 700-800 ybp, might even be Bulgarian from the places such as Bosilegrad
---- Pirot area, Serbia-Bulglaria border area, again it is not excluded this individual is Bulgarian
---- North Macedonian, likely NE of the country
----- two families from Pečenjevce, founded by the Pechenegs, who are strongest in the village numerically, and no evidence to suggest they are any migrants unlike various other families who are.
----- ethnic Bulgarian from Sofia
----- person from Vojvodina, unknown ethnicity.

Bosniaks in my clade have a certain relative likely around 1000 years away in Cluj-Napoca capital of Transylvania.

And this more distant Hungarian..

How can one here draw any notion of ethnic Albanian connection here is insanity, also as amongst 1000 commercially tested Albanians and among more than 1000 scientific samples of Albanians A24066 does not appear once..

Yes!! Nobility!:grin: My family were among very very few wealthy non-muslim families in this whole region of Rascia which was under firm Ottoman control. And Ottoman documents bring light on this clan of ours. People who were fief holding crhistian sipahis in 1526 before the battle of Mohacs. The only non-muslims in our region. Again to achieve that your ancestor had to convert to Islam, and even so whether your own ancestors were sipahis or just some peasants is totally another matter..

Evidence points to Bulgarian derived people existing there in pre-Ottoman time. It seems Serbian rulers gave them southern portion of the Peshter as their land, which is where so much of this unusual topology occurs.

Just illustrates how my family after the battle of Wiena struggled for survival for the first time in centuries, when the new wave of new muslim migrants took control of the area.


from Kuqi area, more specifically from the Drekalovici branch (Popovici).

The progenitor of Popovici branch of the Drekalovici lived after our certain ancestor.:laughing::laughing: :laughing: You took it wrong. A member of my family 7 years claimed to descend of Vujadinovici from Medun, not Popovici. Vujadinovici a known Kuchi family came to existance 100 years after our family, which is why years ago I immediately attacked this member of my family in arguments, 7 years ago before the DNA.. I said impossible, and any link with Drekalovici is also impossible as our ancestor was a contemporary of the sons of Drekalovici founder Lale Drekalov, and he had no such son.




Didn't say you were Montenegrin, I just mentioned it because of flag on Yfull. I simply informed them because your 'Pecheneg' label may throw them off.

I have right to carry it also because I am one of the most knowledgeable on the topic of the Pecheneg language, other than my direct paternal ancestry claim which is valid.



Haplogroup discrepancies are very common in all Albanian clans, so Kuqi in this regard is nothing special. I for example as a Thaç don't belong to the Thaçi cluster from the mother land, but that doesn't mean I am Portuguese. What's important here regarding the cluster in question, is that you originate from that zone. The rest of your drivel is irrelevant.
Don't get emotional on me now for doing my homework, my lost shiptar brother ;)

You argument is ridiculous.

My ancestors were attested as sipahis in the Ottoman system in 16th, 17th century. Your Albanian ilk had to mass convert to Islam to gain protection and ability to harass non-muslims at will which is how you managed to spread yourself around Kosovo, that is a fact.

And actually it seems this is how my own ancestors adopted the Kuchi tradition, there is huge number of muslim Kuchi in the area, few Ortodox ones and those were bad days for Christians

Which is why you went on this rant, when I appeared your degenerated patronizing ways on the topic of E-V13 began to crumble. Have you ever wondered who reduced your 1 man 500 AD cluster to nothing in Iron Age. Might have been some E-V13 actually.

There are plenty of other E-V13 you can address, the Kuchi, Bjelopavlici etc. And for many of them Albanian origin is not a problem. Ultimately the main reason Serbs and Albanians are enemies is because of religious background. And many Albanians dislike catholic Albanians.

So as great many Macedonian and Kosovo Albanians whose identity is more religiously based crave for being Ottoman (like Dema), or Turk, shouldn't you be happy that some E-V13 lineage has likely ethnic affinity to people who formed large part of your identity?? :grin: Who bested the Albanians and Serbs.

Your average E-V13 is just a guy making his way throughout centuries.

Remember my forefather is Huban.

You know Bosniaks told me they are all 5'11" to 6'9", and when the Pecenjevce tested appeared, he also boasted of them being a tall family. He said they were taller than others.

Compare that to Kelmendi who settled Peshter in early 1700s, carrying E-Z16988 and R-Z2705. Who were known to have been very short people. (too much of EEF, or it could be some Antiquity era MENA :laughing:).

Again I'm a big strong dude.
Btw Bosniaks might be related to the founder of the Bosnian state Kulin who was likely a Pecheneg per some historians. So it is important for me for that reason too to bring more light. Bosniaks from central Bosnia have no Vlach ancestry.

Actually despite some claims, Pechenegs were strong and taller per archeological remains. As I've said being big was important for the steppe savages, as you must impose yourself upon so many conquered peoples.

The only relation we have is through proto-Albanian Z38456>BY4461 at the time they left Carpathians/Pannonia for the Balkans. Which could have been 2800 ybp, but also 1800 ybp with Carpi or Costoboci.

If these people end up Carpian, they would be an ideal explanation for those theories connecting Albanian language to Dacians.

Deal with it dude: 6 Z17107+, Z38456- clades in Carpathians. Plus some likely basal E-BY4465's in Szekely and Romanians. I am pretty sure Szekely will split E-Y161799, if Romanian ends up at E-Y97307* level or E-BY4465 they are basically Carpi, unless some upstream is found, even if it is they are "suspicious". You are on a very thin ice here and you have more business trying to salvage them from the Carpian jaws than to comment on clades which have nothing to do with your ethnicity.. :laughing:

Why is that wrong?? Some Costoboci/Carpi invasion remnants slapped around some Illyrian remnants in Albanian mountains and Albanians were born. In any case E-BY4465 did not live in the Balkans 3000 ybp as you would have it. Deal with it.

Aspurg
09-12-20, 01:45
My surname in current form is 400 years old+, and our clan name is 535 years old at least.

My family 400+ years ago settled on a land which belonged to 1) a powerful Turkish family since the 15th century 2) and monastery whose wealthy benefactors we were at the time. This Ottoman family had very strong ties to the sipahi clan (fief holding cavalry recognized by the Ottomans) from Peshter which existed in all villages where our genetic relatives are found, and even in one a branch of my own family was found.

It is beyond ludicrous that anyone other than this clan could have settled this land. No muslim would have dared to settle the land of family of commander of Palace Guards of the sultan Mehmed II, who conquered Constantinople. They were the strongest family in the area until at least 17th century.

Because of this links this person was possibly member of my family as well. But that is more speculative.

Just these argument makes any further discussion on the topic of my clans origin completely pointless...

That all places where this clan was found have Bulgarian etymology, as does Peshter itself, that their eldest member was carrying Bulgarian Cuman/Kipchak name of course has its genetic backing with a Bulgarian from Sofia. Also the TMRCA of Bulgarian and N.Macedonian is certainly above the TMRCA of my own branch in Bijelo Polje/Pešter region.

I am alot more Bulgarian by paternal ancestry than most Bulgarians.

So I'm afraid facts speak against your average katunar or peasant status of my family. That irks the Leki who is just a simple man trying to survive in the mountains. Whereas I am descendant of fief holders for centuries.. That irks some some Serbs too. Very Good. I want you to irk you, because I dislike peasantry and peasants, commoners. Since childhood the dislike of commoners was instilled in me. So for me researching Y-DNA history is a competition, who is better?? As by psycho-physical features I am better (which is why for ex. I always dominate in any sort of discussion based on logic, reasoning etc., happened here and elsewhere many times), it is important to be better in Y-DNA, it is an important confirmation of my worldview that worthy descendants of those born to be above must take their place. ofc worthy people of any sort can rise in hierarchy.

In my ideal society no more than 2 % of a population would have a "right to vote".

Generally I do not care for the ancestors of my own who were not of some quality, status etc. Ethnicity or anything else is of secondary importance. For people like Berendei ethnicity is the status. Great many of them were some nobility.

So Leki, to even fanthom being Albanian, I'd have to be descended of Arianiti or alike. But no, I am Charovich genetically connected to a Pecheneg village settled by the Berende Chahrovich clan. Serbs hate "h" sounds of of course it got lost here.. This "h" also got completely lost in modern Turkish, in few Turkic languages it still exists.

Actually one reason I have it Pecheneg at YFull is also not to irritate my relatives from Pečenjevce. Serbs from those areas don't like Bulgarians usually. Even though many are related to them, and were Bulgarians before the battle of Velbužd.

So my cluster exists in Pečenjevce and in MNE/SRB we have Pecheneg surname and I am in full right to have it as "Pecheneg" there.

So the Ottomans conquered the region and one of few Christian people they left some authority to were actually descendants of Berendei. Ataturk would be pleased with that.

Leki you failed to respond to any of my points, ever, which speaks volumes of you as you just respond mentioning the same thing all over again, and you fail to respond to my response to your point. On a serious forum you'd be banned ofc. You are a troll obviously, but my patience is also superhuman, and you will tire before me, no matter how times you repeat something I will come back at you or anyone else one more time than you. Mine will be last. Because I always win.:smile: And even when I happen to lose I still win..

Aspurg
09-12-20, 03:23
Bjelo Polje from Kuqi area, more specifically from the Drekalovici branch (Popovici).


To explain this. One branch of my family in central Serbia had this Popovici claim, but they did not mention Kuchi at all! But in early 17th century and late 16th century on the Peshter plateau, in tribal group I surely descend of, as we have still members of my own family in that village still living there, occurred a surname Popovici, this is of course completely unrelated to any Popovici of Kuchi. But also this family claimed to have arrived there from a village which was named that way only in early 19th century while they claim to have migrated alot before, so I am bit suspicious. So this surname could have circulated in some branches.

So Drekalovici Vujadinovici claim is the only elaborate Kuchi claim, it is complete nonsense. Anyone else in my family just had vaguely Kuchi, so it seems this is where this false tradition was born.


The oldest reliable tradition of my family has been mentioned in a book about Djindjic brotherhood, who became the best man of ours in first half of 19th century, and this tradition has no mention of any Kuchi whatsoever. Actually it mentions the "ancestor riding a horse". So you see Arber katunar friend, horses were very important in my family. Again testament to what we are.


Another interesting thing is generally Albanians, Serbs, Croats etc. are dishonest, double standard people who always support their ethnicity even when they are 100 % wrong. For me that is "honorless", but that is who you are. Same goes for many many others.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC8pM2hkmYk

One of most known members of my family, close associate of Arkan. Arkan went in 1995 to Cazinska Krajina to fight for Fikret Abdic. Here in this video he said of 505th brigade from Buzim that though his opponents they were awesome fighters, extremely brave. When he was killed in mafia engagement few years ago, actually member of Zivinicke Ose, Bosniak special forces unit wrote somewhere that although they were on the opposite sides, he was a real solder, not a sissy.

And now often Bosniaks post this video as one tribute to 505th..

It's good to see my clan members are so brutally honest like I am. I hope it runs in the family, and of course that is an indication we are not of you. When I researched Cuman culture in Hungary, I found that brutal honesty was one of their main traits. Many people have told me that they appreciate my honesty.

I instantly recognize intentions of most of you after few sentences you utter, while many of you are very sneaky, dishonest, with double and triple standards. Part of my own ethnocentrism is to hold my own to account. I believe this is one trait of conquering, offensive peoples.. Untypical of Yugos and Albanians (and many others) which is again part of the reason you were never able to form some longstanding entities.

Again, I don't think I ever wrote an unsubstantiated post here, or elsewhere even when I'm not fully serious. For me that's "dishonorable", for you and most it is not. I take offence at you dismissing my thesis because I never ever claim anything without substance, one dismisses/ridicules usually no substance material. I go to the lengths to demonstrate substance, you show no substance, and yet you say the opposite. Albanian concept of "honor", extend that to Yugo too. Again the difference between a peasant/katunar ilk of yours and fief holder horse rider ilk of mine.:good_job:

Tend your sheeps Sheeptar.

Aspurg
09-12-20, 04:12
Let me end just with the wishes of good luck to Kubrat Pulev against Joshua, even though he is probably going to lose. Yet is is somebody who looks like a Bulgar. Good to see some more Bulgar clades appear in Bulgaria. On Peshter we have a possible occurrence of Bulgar name "Okor", Bulgar chief Okorsis, so I certainly hope I can have some connection there too. Regardless my own fathers helped create Second Bulgarian state in a big way.


https://youtu.be/E0r70qu5fCw?t=134


And little bit related to me. I am so happy Murat Gassiev finally made his debut. I claim Pecheneg and in the Nart sagas, Pechenegs are mentioned as Bædzænæg which I have in my profile, as my Ossetian friends told me when I tested one of them and discovered a new E-CTS9320* branch in Ossetians, the presence of CTS9320 in Ossetians, the only linguistics heirs to Sarmato-Alans, one people with the most superior way of life ever to have existed, and because they assimilated something of their superiority in big part Turks were also superior. And CTS9320 is one of the most high quality if not the most high quality E-V13 lineage. It was very important to find this result in the highest of populations.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMDhZ5zGQk4

And suitably "Albanian Tyson" was his first opponent (he used to be decent some time ago) and he ended up the way nonsense of these Albanian and other enemies of E-V13 is ending up and will end up. Fortunately on an internet forum in a debate, as in real life, this is how some of you would end up once you refuse to behave rationally and stick with with the triple-standard degeneracy. With new E-CTS9320 results, with Ancient Thracian results, they are going to fall apart, and they are going to bow before the E-V13 proto-Dacians/Thracians. They fall apart any time they face me in a debate. They are no match for a worthy son of Bolyars..

broder
09-12-20, 05:52
Man, go take your pills or something.
Can't be bothered with all that nonsense. If you weren't so dishonest about your background, I wouldn't have had to intervene. When I see horseshit, I will call it as such.

Aspurg
09-12-20, 06:28
Can't be bothered with all that nonsense. If you weren't so dishonest about your background,

My background has no connection whatsoever with your people, you claiming it does is what is dishonest to the Nth degree..

Your people (Albanians/proto-Albanians) formed 1000-1400 ybp. Closest genetic link of mine to your people is 2900 ybp. Provide 1000-1400 ybp genetic link as without it there is no Albanian connection.. This is Iron Age not some Medieval links.

You my likely gracile weak chinned friend could be biologically dishonest (partially genetically because of genetic recombination).. The problem is having people like you (and many other varieties dominated by negative traits) in any sort of debate. 95 % of people with your craniofacial and body traits would behave exactly as you behave.. And that is a problem not here on this forum, but everywhere on this planet..


I wouldn't have had to intervene. When I see horseshit, I will call it as such.

Well my ancestors lived with horses and I prefer horseshit to the sheepshit and goatshit.:good_job:

I remember long time ago how Albanians prostrated themselves before me just to gain my approval. Those Albanians wanted to follow the path of quality.

TaktikatEMalet
09-12-20, 14:49
Guys guys, you can't base anything on 1 instance of y dna especially from a dark past, it doesn't determine who is from where you have to look at the wider picture. That 1 y dna could have come from anywhere as rape or even cheating happens

What I will say is v13 has nothing to do with south slavs, they were mostly i2a and r1a people. Sure, some v13 become slavs early on when they became outnumbered in various regions but as a tribal group v13 is balkan we just don't know for sure which ancient tribes it mostly belonged to

Aspurg
09-12-20, 19:31
Guys guys, you can't base anything on 1 instance of y dna especially from a dark past, it doesn't determine who is from where you have to look at the wider picture. That 1 y dna could have come from anywhere as rape or even cheating happens

It doesn't ofc, just in my case I have chosen to make an issue out of my own paternal ancestry if it is Berendei. In such case I want to revive them at all costs. I don't care if it is Albanian, Byzantine, whatever. I have a problem someone attacking me on another forum, where I can't even respond as registration is not allowed. Had he at least presented the genetic fact that A24066 occurs in Bulgarians, N.Macedonians, Romanians but not in Albanians that might have been OK from my POV.

His argument about Albanian clans being heterogenous applies only to Albanians, and many of them are indeed all over the place genetically, which shows how many traditions are wrong.. On the other hand Serbian/Montenegrin clans are far more homogenous. On a huge number of people tested in Kuchi for example only their E-BY165837 cluster appears while a million of hg has Kuchi tradition, but only E-V13 for this idiot who wants to gather all E-V13 in Malesia Shkoder area so that all of "his Pelasgian slaves" are gathered in one place. Had he read the article where my clan is mentioned better he would have known that our cluster was not found in Kuchi nor in Kuchi families settled abroad. First sentence says we are the aboriginal population of our village..
Btw this Popovici tradition also mentions our clan always having "huge number of horses, Ottomans chasing us to take away our horses.."

So two separate traditions written down mention horses.

Another tradition by other families about my clan in vicinity that used to circle in 19th century and earlier was that we are of Greek or Byzantine origin. As Greek graves usually signify various old things this most likely means just "very old".

Long ago I've noticed his constant dissing of E-V13 "Farmers", similarly of some PH908 Serbian admins/moderators for the same reason, and I have attacked them on their forum regarding this. So I am glad he has done this so we can settle some issues. They have no business commenting anything on E-V13..

lets imagine for a moment he is right, E-V13 are farmers in Illyrian territories. Pelasgians. What would I say?
R-Z2705, J-L283 pack your bags take your Illyrian language with you and disappear from "Illyrian" E-V13 Western Balkan territories.


What I will say is v13 has nothing to do with south slavs, they were mostly i2a and r1a people.

Few have like a few E-L540's.. Also one likely Dacian clade, R-V2896 seems to have spread mostly with Slavs.


Sure, some v13 become slavs early on when they became outnumbered in various regions but as a tribal group v13 is balkan we just don't know for sure which ancient tribes it mostly belonged to

And that is something I absolutely do not want, usual stray local remnant with early assimilation, like so many others. That is one of default ancestries. But as my own clade occurs on a very broad geographic scale. Two clusters of A24066 around 1000 years old are very broadly dispersed, and also to add Hungarian A24070*. Another reason is that I never have rated neither Slavs nor Paleo-Balkanites much. Slavs descend from some sedentary (so significantly "degenerated") IE groups who mixed up with some primitive Hunter gatherers... The only reason why they successfully spread is the timing and that there were numerous.

New Z17107+, Z38456- from NE Hungary is with descend from Slovakia where they were they were one of main Hungarian noble houses. One of branches of the old Hungarian noble Hont-Pazman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hont-P%C3%A1zm%C3%A1ny) house, the Forgach, another branch Benyi is I-M223, which might fit in the old tradition of their Swabian origin. But Forgach are also very old, dating to 12 th century, nothing to do with Vlachs, likely locals in the area.

One thing Leki mentioned is how Hungarians E-A19247 share an SNP with Albanian as to signify that Albania is the home of Z17107 which it is not.

Well we can see now that it is garbage 100 %. They tested huge number of Albanians, tried everything to find some other Z17107's, and yet in Carpathians on a significantly smaller sample of people deep tested there is far more diversity..

At Rrenjet ofc they write that it is IE arrival into Albania. But this guy still persists with his 10+ years old nonsense..

broder
09-12-20, 22:11
No one gives a shit what a complexed, unstable, pimpled faced moron with identity crisis says or thinks he is. Serious researches rely on ethnographic literature for such matters and come to their conclusions.
Simply put for others reading this thread, you're a Serb today with possible Albanian - based on your clan affiliation - or Vlah - based on your most distant ancestors name - paternal origin.
The rest is all in your schizo head.

Aspurg
10-12-20, 00:07
unstable,

I establish the facts, and make a claim. I literally claim basically the same thing for years and nothing other than that. Be it my clan or E-V13 itself. That's called stability.


moron with identity crisis says or thinks he is.

You obviously do otherwise you would not have started the rockus. And prior to you some of your minions also did. There is no identity crisis within me. Principlewise what I am all about is not something most Serbs, Albanians, Romanians etc. can possibly be about..


Serious researches rely on ethnographic literature for such matters and come to their conclusions.

Ethnographic literature in my case is inconclusive and of little help. The highest authority Lutovac called my family simply "the old population" ref. Bihor i Korita book. without labelling us as Kuchi.



Simply put for others reading this thread, you're a Serb today with possible Albanian - based on your clan affiliation - or Vlah - based on your most distant ancestors name - paternal origin.

I am whatever it suits me at a given time.

I wouldn't say I am a Serb. I am not a Christian really.. Serbs are ortodox christians who speak Shtokavian, Bosniaks are muslims who speak Shtokavian, Croats are catholics...

Just to inform you because it is the main reason you and Dema, Derite, Hawk came to troll me because you hate those "bloody Orthodox Christians so much" .. because although you might claim to be nonreligious that is actually the main reason why you hate Serbs, same as Serbs hate you for the same reason.. ofc there are other ethnic issues etc. but that is the main..

I have to admit that my mothers side which includes Turkish Bey ancestry, and various other notable Ottoman ancestry, that likes alot my paternal side. because Serbs do not like Turkics exactly.. It's hard for a selfidentifying Serb to enthusiastically research Turkic links. But I have explained what I do to my clansmen, and I am pleased to say I have their full support on my path and compliments.

First find some Albanian who is closer to me than 1000 ybp which is when Albanians were first mentioned and then talk about Albanians.

Yes personal name of our ancestor is Vlach, not certainly, Paun might be a variant of Paul, shortened form of Pavun. Both names extremely common in the Pešter in late 16th, early 17th century when our ancestor lived, and where our other relatives are. And we do have A24066 in Romania too. However we do not know who he is etc. Might be some Pecheneg.. We'll see..

However my genetic is not connected to a known Vlachs of Sjenica clan, but they are all R-Z2705. Rather my genetics has clear connection with Bulgarian-derived places, and remember we do have a close cousin in Sofia (karachanak et al, and probably another study)


The rest is all in your schizo head.

Pechenegs the schizo, the sado-mazo, and so many other things you name it.

Outside of my head and in the real world once more:
My close brother clan are Čarovići and therefore I am too Čarovič, and Dugeyinci (karachay Togay, tatar Tugey) from Pečenjevce 200 km to the East.
Pečenjevce was settled by the Čagroviči Berende clan. Proof? Čekmin part of Pečenjevce, Čagrovac near Pečenjevce. All mentioned in 1498, and in another unpublished census of around 1470.
Every single historian attributes this village to settlement of the glorious schizo Pechenegs.

In 1167 three sons of the glorious Çağr were:
Monachuk
Toshman
and the eldest Çekman Çağroviç

ğ is pronounced like gh (similar to h), but in languages such as Serbian it is lost. It can disappear or mutate into g (like in Čagrovac). This mutation into Čagrovac is very important because there is no ambiguity here that this is the Berendei clan.
There is only one Chekman mentioned in history and that was glorious Chekman Chagrovich. Who must have been among the Berendei who helped Ivan Asen II to take over Bulgarian Empire. As proven by two additional Berende villages nearby just across the border.

Ivan Asen's son invaded Bijelo Polje in 1254. What unifies my own and our brothers from Pešter genetic results is ultimately Huban born around 1430. Huban comes from the Central Asian Iranic loan into Kipchak meaning pretty. Medieval court Bulgarian name, and ofc remember our Sofia brother andsurely more. We'll throw some party once they get commercially tested.

Now that I presented you my credentials turn on your brain for a change.



complexed,

I am worthy progeny of Chekman, Huban..

PS.
Ahh thats why for you 1000 TMRCA is the same thing as 2000, 3000, 5000. There are Thaci and there are other Thaci? You can't be both real if your TMRCA is over 1000 ybp. Somebody is anas there.. But for you its the same. No, someone is real and someone is anas..


Thaci R-Z2705 thought he controls the research of E-V13 until he crossed roads with an E-V13 Pecheneg. Don't be too hard on yourself, Pechenegs annihilated more people in 2 centuries than Serbs, Albanians, Croats put together in 10.. And we ran our schizo state from Volga to Belgrade. And after into central Serbia.

Besides, I am in contact with various Turks, official channels including knowledgeable people so if they see clear proof here who are you to utter anything??

Remember my distant Hungarian brother, possible descendant of Maygar chieftain Apor. He also shows where our home is.

Progon
10-12-20, 00:35
Why do u have to write such long explanations, i don't get it.

I don't think you are an Albanian but i am also sure you are not Pecheneg as well, some assimilated Vlach maybe.

As for E-V13, it's very clear from Late Neolithic Bulgarian samples last month leak which were all G2a and Chalcolithic R1b that E-V13 never lived in Balkans before MBA-LBA.

Going per patterns, it looks like the three most powerful Illyrian tribes Autariates, Dardanii and Ardiae were mostly or exclusively E-V13 very likely.

For Autariates, atleast their elite was E-V13.

Aspurg
10-12-20, 00:58
Why do u have to write such long explanations, i don't get it.

I don't think you are an Albanian but i am also sure you are not Pecheneg as well, some assimilated Vlach maybe.

If I thought I was Albanian I would have 0 problems with it, I speak basic Albanian (but superb turkish for ex.). Years ago when I took seriously this Kuchi tradition, when some cousin told me of it, I thought yeah I'm a Drekalović until I saw later it made no sense, and DNA result showed E-V13 but 4400 yeas away from them.

Because I don't talk empty. I can do it far longer.


My close brother clan are Čarovići and therefore I am too Čarovič, and Dugeyinci (karachay Togay, tatar Tugey) from Pečenjevce 200 km to the East.
Pečenjevce was settled by the Čagroviči Berende clan. Proof? Čekmin part of Pečenjevce, Čagrovac near Pečenjevce. All mentioned in 1498, and in another unpublished census of around 1470.
Every single historian attributes this village to settlement of the glorious schizo Pechenegs.

In 1167 three sons of the glorious Çağr were:
Monachuk
Toshman
and the eldest Çekman Çağroviç

ğ is pronounced like gh (similar to h), but in languages such as Serbian it is lost. It can disappear or mutate into g (like in Čagrovac). This mutation into Čagrovac is very important because there is no ambiguity here that this is the Berendei clan.
There is only one Chekman mentioned in history and that was glorious Chekman Chagrovich. Who must have been among the Berendei who helped Ivan Asen II to take over Bulgarian Empire. As proven by two additional Berende villages nearby just across the border.

Ivan Asen's son invaded Bijelo Polje in 1254. What unifies my own and our brothers from Pešter genetic results is ultimately Huban born around 1430. Huban comes from the Central Asian Iranic loan into Kipchak meaning pretty. Medieval court Bulgarian name, and ofc remember our Sofia brother andsurely more. We'll throw some party once they get commercially tested.


How do you explain this? Only Čarovići in existence among Serbs have same surname as the Berendei clan settled in Pečenjevce where I also have relatives. Only tested person from Pečenjevce is my brother no more than 1000 years away but also no less than say 800. Around Pečenjevce no relatives.

Dude this is never going to be accident. Further near Ston on Pelješac there is Čarovići toponym to which these Čarovići actually connected themselves. That is related to 1254 event and Bulgarian involvement. Bulgarians were allies of župan Radoslav who held Ston, they tried to topple Serbian ruler. If there is any truth in tradition that Čarovići are related to these Čarovići it is 100 % related to this Bulgarian invasion of Bijelo Polje in 1254.

And I came to that conclusion before I knew of Čarovići, that 4 years ago my closest match was a Bulgarian, I connected that with the 1254. event.

Yeah, I'm likely some assimilated Dacian-Getae or Pannonian by the Pechenegs/Berendei. I don't think my ancestors ever spoke Latin.



As for E-V13, it's very clear from Late Neolithic Bulgarian samples last month leak which were all G2a and Chalcolithic R1b that E-V13 never lived in Balkans before MBA-LBA.

Going per patterns, it looks like the three most powerful Illyrian tribes Autariates, Dardanii and Ardiae were mostly or exclusively E-V13 very likely.

For Autariates, atleast their elite was E-V13.

Never lived or in small number yes.

Autariates ratherwere J-L283, I guess they were J-Z631. What Pribislav told you is true, Glasinac had weak Urnfield. But Ardiaei were Urnfield predominately or totally. Dardanians, plenty of E-V13 yes, but newcomers fro mthe West J-Z631, J-PH1602.

Progon
10-12-20, 01:03
How do you explain the Glasinac chariot with water birds then, well late until Late Iron Age.

The elites in Glasinac were being cremated on a tumuli.

Aspurg
10-12-20, 01:11
, you're a Serb today

When I told all this to several Turks face to face in real life in Turkish. These people know very well who are Pechenegs. They answered me: "so you are a Turk".

And I have to say I'm a Turkic.
12458

Which is why I research this in great detail, and I want such link proven 100 %. Regardless I actually do have from my mother side such ancestry too, in any case we're friends, and I speak Turkish pretty good.

Bosniaks, ah won't troll them I'm sure. For Bosnia I believe it is of importance, some Central Bosnian (real Bosnian) proto-Magyar DNA results, one Jasz, and are these Bessenyei? Kulin founder of Bosnia was quite likely a Bessenyei. Are they connected to that, maybe. I know one thing that cluster doesn't exist in any Serbs tested, or Croats, but it does exist in distant Transylvania. So like various other Bosnians from central Bosnia they can be those arrivals.

Bosnians are similar to Serbs except some of these clusters. So these can be elements which make Bosnia unique!!!! Proto-Bosnians. Who shaped lots of Bosnian identity.

Progon
10-12-20, 01:19
Also, it looks like Kapitan Andreevo E-V13 very likely descends from Gava.

Those weird ritual pits from Kapitan Andreevo can be find a parallel in Gava.

Also, i doubt Cetina is the source of E-V13, it's too late.

It's very likely Dalmatian Cardial but from those who migrated and formed Butmir Culture in Bosnia then being part of Vucedol and in Bronze Age Nugarev Culture and similar ones in Hungary spreading more North and East.

Aspurg
10-12-20, 01:22
How do you explain the Glasinac chariot with water birds then, well late until Late Iron Age.

The elites in Glasinac were being cremated on a tumuli.

Glasinac had continuity since Medium Bronze age, the culture Glasinac was connected to in MBA/LBA was directly connected to J-L283 find.

There was Unrfield influence. Urnfielders tried to take over but it seems they did not succeed mostly. However some may have settled or locals adopted those ways.

Glasinac has plenty of skeletons, there was cremation but generally inhumation was more common. Now ofc there were some Urnfielders.

Ardiaei on the other hand were Urnfield, and so were some others. There was strong Urnfield element in Montenegro areas. Especially the south.

There were many tribes there, I'd have to see in more detail which other tribes were Urnfield. But Ardiaei are very important group. So you may use them as an example.

Aspurg
10-12-20, 01:32
Also, it looks like Kapitan Andreevo E-V13 very likely descends from Gava.

Those weird ritual pits from Kapitan Andreevo can be find a parallel in Gava.

Also, i doubt Cetina is the source of E-V13, it's too late.

It's very likely Dalmatian Cardial but from those who migrated and formed Butmir Culture in Bosnia then being part of Vucedol and in Bronze Age Nugarev Culture and similar ones in Hungary spreading more North and East.

I believe Gava was dominately E-V13. 70 %, 80, 90 %... Probably some border cultures to Gava too. Yes I read on those pits, and will look into them in more detail.

Yes V13 could have been present in Pannonia and many other areas. As for Cetina PH1246 resembles it but my theory on that was that 98% of E-V13 has no links with Cetina. Glina III culture I believe was the one who scattered E-V13 all over Carpathians and Pannonia. Because this Glina III Schneckenberg , which was Yamnaya variant, had ties with Dalmatian Cardial element. Before Cetina existed and then they left, after they left Cetina started emerging in fusion with other cultures. But as these Glina III people were very nomadic if they went back to their home and they did, in Carpathains I assumed they just took the E-V13 there and only small element was left in Dalmatia to form Cetina.

This is something for which there is genetic evidence and archeological evidence. ofc E-V13 could have been there but impossible to know exactly for now. So this Glina III culture is ideal because of time, it corresponds to E-V13 TRMCA. If someone compains of Gava being later etc. this is the explanation, and basically impossible to counter based on evidence.

Aspurg
10-12-20, 01:42
So as explained your trolling really doesn't do anything.. :grin: You, and other Albanians trolling me "you are not true Serb" like you troll other Serbs is like saying to me "you're not a true Colombian, Spaniard", so I can't be buzzed by "for not being a real Slavic Serb".. For me to say that I am a Serb is hard and weird. Only in some very secular sense. I do not deny my history though.

Aspurg
10-12-20, 01:54
Another member of my family (not close), known journalist in Bosnia.
She had an interview with Erdogan some time ago. Can't find it. Berendei interviewing Erdogan, I gotta make this a reality 100 %.

I spent my childhood in Sarajevo from 1992 to 1995. I assure you any experience of war you might have is nothing compared to what was happening there.

Still I myself keep contacts with Montenegro etc. I initiated them myself.

Progon
10-12-20, 09:04
I always thought that E-V13 were IE-zed somewhere in Balkans mingling with R1b-Z2103 but those were G2a, and apparently their males were being disfavored or put in some hardships for leaving an offspring.

To me it looks like E-V13 adopted IE language via female side, during middle or late EBA when their groups were quite small.

Progon
10-12-20, 09:19
I think that the group who burned Mycenae were more related to later classical Illyrians, since burials in Argolis and Mycenae contain cremation on tumuli which has a parallel in Western Balkans. Probably E-V13 picked up R1b-Z2103 and J2b2 on Western Balkans and sailed down in Southern Albania and Peloponesse. While the other group who destroyed Hittite Empire was more related to Proto-Thracians, many E-V13 tribes settled on Thrace, while some others crossed the Bosphorus and invaded the Hittite Empire.

Their world was rather a cruel, world, working mainly as miners and metal-workers, their metal working skills and technology was unmatched by any living group, but their civilization was rather not rich culturally, the Iron Age they brought was rather detested and the past Bronze Age was praised for its colorfulness. But, they paved the way for a new era. The palatial civilizations were gone for good.

Progon
11-12-20, 09:47
I think that the Illyrians or atleast the Urnfield group who heavily influenced Illyrians came from Middle Danube Urnfield group while the Thracians received their influence from Gava related horizont. It's very likely that Albanian language is East Urnfield derived considering it has very little Greek influence and relationship. I would say that during the Bronze Age Proto-Albanoids were living somewhere in between Middle Danube groups and Gava culture.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/MlMLE.jpg

Aspurg
12-12-20, 23:38
I think that the Illyrians or atleast the Urnfield group who heavily influenced Illyrians came from Middle Danube Urnfield group while the Thracians received their influence from Gava related horizont. It's very likely that Albanian language is East Urnfield derived considering it has very little Greek influence and relationship. I would say that during the Bronze Age Proto-Albanoids were living somewhere in between Middle Danube groups and Gava culture.


My distant Z5018 cousin, I'm afraid those of us who look to be Urnfield are not proto-Illyrians..

I took a detailed look at the situation with great many, especially Pannonian, tribes. From before it is known this Pannonian Illyrian linguistic element was Illyrian but somewhat gradient to something else, likely Venetic.

And at the sites of many Pannonian tribes, we see around 1000, 900 BC Urnfielders coming in establishing themselves, but then few centuries after 600, 500 BC Glasinac non-cremating J-L283 start coming in and actually come up with upper hand.

In addition the Messapians who were certainly Illyrian were also hardcore non-Unrfield inhumating non-cremating people..

So these Pannonians generally are likely to great extent Illyrianized Urnfielders plus mostly J-L283 who Illyrianized them..

No wonder in Hungary almost all J-L283 is West of Danube. E-V13 more in the Eastern part with solid presence in the West..

Unrfielders in the West were Venetic like speakers. Their remnant in the Balkans were the Liburnii and Histrii (if Istria is Balkans). Some of these clades like E-Z16988 might be Liburnian related, as they are strong in Croatia, but have some presence in Albania. The answer might be the Liburnian thalassocracy when Liburnians established domination at one period over the Adriatic Sea.

Urnfield in the West were Venetic, Italic, Estruscan, in the East Daco-Thracian...

So it seems Glasinac-Mati people did indeed carry the Illyrians on their shoulders. But their original center was MBA Glasinac.. From there they spread everywhere including Albania (Mati). Interestingly in some of these Illyrianized Urnfield sites such as NW Croatia some Basarabi and Thraco-Cimmerian Eastern influences are found. On Glasinac itself. That might be the explanation for some E-V13's..

Now J-Z631 common in Pannonia and N.Carpathians also makes sense as Glasinac people spreading the Illyrian language...

There are some R-Z2705 level looking Hungarians who fit nicely into that as well.. I doubt R-Z2705 were Urnfield..

Progon
13-12-20, 12:35
Aspurg, i don't agree with you at that point.

The distinctive Glasinac symbol was the chariot with the water birds, very unique during Late Bronze Age - Early Iron Age among Urnfield-related cultures only, especially among Eastern Urnfielders. I will find it extremely strange a non-Urnfield people to adopt that symbol.

Glasinac had continuation in burial customs not on other things, there was a change on weapons and other stuffs. Autariates were defeated by the Celts-Gauls and they seeked refugee in Dacia, while some of them were granted land in Greek Macedonia, South-Western Bulgaria. The only ones they pushed was Triballi more to the east, and Ardiae more to the coasts where they were fighting for the salt mines.

I don't expect all E-V13 to practice cremation btw, Kapitan Andreevo which was full of E-V13 didn't practice cremation, and this culture is from Early Iron Age.