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martin chaide
20-01-20, 19:08
The best sample of ancient andalusian genetic are the autosomes of 37 individuals from southeast Spain, three from 200 – 400 CE (purple stars), 11 from 400-800 CE (blue stars) and 23 Muslims (green stars) that lived between 1000-1600 CE, adding up 814 autosomes, a number high enough to present a low statistical variance.

The analyses showed that the old Andalusians had a bigger african admixture than the modern iberian population, being their genetics similar in the antiquity and in the middle ages. This indicates that the moorish presence in Spain precede the Islamic conquest, possibly being of roman or punic origin (in the iron age the Iberian genetics is almost 100% western European)

In fact, if you translate the ancient Andalusians individuals from the figure number two in the article:

11760

to the figure beneath you can see clearly than the sephardic Jews (3), that originates in the same region than the Punics (4), are closer to the old Andalusians (1) than the Moroccan Berbers are (6)

11759

Sephardic Jews are not pure, they are mixed with the population (jew or not) of the countries they settled in when expelled from Spain, mostly territories of the Ottoman empire. It can be seen than the sephardic Jews (3) are in the middle way between the Lebanese, Greeks and and Turks (5) and the ancient Andalusians(1). If the modern Sephardics are in the middle way, the simplest mathematics tell us that the original sepharadim should be very close to the old andalusians.


This is not surprising as both, spanish Muslims and Jews, lived in the same territory in the same epoch, and the most probable is that they shared a common origin: the old Punics or Carthaginians. In fact, in XVI century Spain it was believed that the african moors originated in Phoenicia. Those pagan Phoenicians (or Canaanim, as they called themselves), become Jews, then Muslim and finally many of them become catholic Christians.

this is coherent with the book by Paul Wexler former professor of Linguistics at Tel-Aviv University. He argued that the sepharadin had an important berber and arab substrat and based his hypotesis in linguistic, but not in genetics.


Source: The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years.

Carlos
21-01-20, 00:47
Water passed does not move mill

Ygorcs
21-01-20, 04:55
The best sample of ancient andalusian genetic are the autosomes of 37 individuals from southeast Spain, three from 200 – 400 CE (purple stars), 11 from 400-800 CE (blue stars) and 23 Muslims (green stars) that lived between 1000-1600 CE, adding up 814 autosomes, a number high enough to present a low statistical variance.

The analyses showed that the old Andalusians had a bigger african admixture than the modern iberian population, being their genetics similar in the antiquity and in the middle ages. This indicates that the moorish presence in Spain precede the Islamic conquest, possibly being of roman or punic origin (in the iron age the Iberian genetics is almost 100% western European)

In fact, if you translate the ancient Andalusians individuals from the figure number two in the article:

11760

to the figure beneath you can see clearly than the sephardic Jews (3), that originates in the same region than the Punics (4), are closer to the old Andalusians (1) than the Moroccan Berbers are (6)

11759

Sephardic Jews are not pure, they are mixed with the population (jew or not) of the countries they settled in when expelled from Spain, mostly territories of the Ottoman empire. It can be seen than the sephardic Jews (3) are in the middle way between the Lebanese, Greeks and and Turks (5) and the ancient Andalusians(1). If the modern Sephardics are in the middle way, the simplest mathematics tell us that the original sepharadim should be very close to the old andalusians.


This is not surprising as both, spanish Muslims and Jews, lived in the same territory in the same epoch, and the most probable is that they shared a common origin: the old Punics or Carthaginians. In fact, in XVI century Spain it was believed that the african moors originated in Phoenicia. Those pagan Phoenicians (or Canaanim, as they called themselves), become Jews, then Muslim and finally many of them become catholic Christians.

this is coherent with the book by Paul Wexler former professor of Linguistics at Tel-Aviv University. He argued that the sepharadin had an important berber and arab substrat and based his hypotesis in linguistic, but not in genetics.


Source: The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years.




Interesting analysis, most of it sounds plausible enough to be further investigated. I only have one major doubt: is there any historical evidence of a large-scale conversion of Punic people or Roman Africans (considering that the core of Roman Africa was what was Punic territory before) to Judaism to justify the existence of Punic-like Proto-Sephardim in the Maghreb and later in Iberia? Couldn't it be just that Judaeans and Phoenicians were so similar genetically that a mix of ancient Jews with some Europeans and North Africans (and Punic-descended ones, too) would be similar to Punic people already living in North Africa before?

martin chaide
21-01-20, 09:49
Interesting analysis, most of it sounds plausible enough to be further investigated. I only have one major doubt: is there any historical evidence of a large-scale conversion of Punic people or Roman Africans (considering that the core of Roman Africa was what was Punic territory before) to Judaism to justify the existence of Punic-like Proto-Sephardim in the Maghreb and later in Iberia? Couldn't it be just that Judaeans and Phoenicians were so similar genetically that a mix of ancient Jews with some Europeans and North Africans (and Punic-descended ones, too) would be similar to Punic people already living in North Africa before?

thank you. of course it could be, but if you forget religion and think just on genetics, that doesn't make a big difference.

As you say it diserves further investigation. The only thing i did was overlap two graphs and look at the result. I have my own theories about christianity but i do not want to contaminate the forum with fringe theories.

Carlos
23-01-20, 03:34
Let's see what's in this sample of Al-Andalus

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RwP_Ja35Hl0/XijxNux0CJI/AAAAAAAACeo/lIhHUDa97rQPalhuBUCzODVLYrrUpKGEgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PortugueseCordobaCaliphate%2528I12514%2529Breakdow n.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-874Wl1Xoazg/XijxKN-78GI/AAAAAAAACek/SktyaeaqfN0VrtgT_K1WcGupg7VNi3yKwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PortugueseCordobaCaliphate%2528I12514%2529.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-soIwTUTGidw/XijxQb8YpBI/AAAAAAAACes/Oh-kcaFpwG8BilqVS8V8EQJ4FaJG3UqKACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PortugueseCordobaCaliphate%2528I12514%2529PLUS.JPE G

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8Z2Y9wKTBi8/XijyL1ff_rI/AAAAAAAACfA/fMDQaWAyX8UL5jNvBCck15Vf9ODeukmewCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PortugueseCordobaCaliphate%2528I12514%2529E.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-v__2-PkQu5s/XijyPA7TmlI/AAAAAAAACfE/YIiWIHA6OFIXdLpy-UvPYb9WHF1S9Q_vACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PortugueseCordobaCaliphate%2528I12514%2529J.JPEG


https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JPcH53fY1RI/Xij2GAlAtvI/AAAAAAAACfU/_eaC-TNwGnI-HuZ8VNZtyt8rtbgLCZHCwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PortugueseCordobaCaliphate%2528I12514%2529PCAmoder n.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ueqlibTiZD4/Xij36x6OS-I/AAAAAAAACfo/FqGzg04YX7cwLfcNTBbeTR5PCBP8Z0cuwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PortugueseCordobaCaliphate%2528I12514%2529PCAancie nt.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qh9r5B9ybsg/Xij2w-wm6CI/AAAAAAAACfc/CjgDgVe3cMsSfZWVGOyjN2lm-AK5PE8XACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PortugueseCordobaCaliphate%2528I12514%2529MapeDeep Dive.JPEG

As I see that you like Al-Andalus so much here you have both material to write a book. At the moment you cannot create other kits

martin chaide
23-01-20, 15:49
ty very much!

Carlos
24-01-20, 16:58
ty very much!

¿De qué provincia española eres?
Where are you from, what Spanish province?

ratchet_fan
03-07-20, 19:19
How much SSA ancestry did the Moors have? I have read that it was less than modern berbers but there also people who say the Moors had a lot of SSA men who contributed to food, architecture and culture.

Philjames100
03-07-20, 19:23
How much SSA ancestry did the Moors have? I have read that it was less than modern berbers but there also people who say the Moors had a lot of SSA men who contributed to food, architecture and culture.

What food, architecture and culture came to muslim Spain from sub-Saharan Africa?

ratchet_fan
03-07-20, 20:00
What food, architecture and culture came to muslim Spain from sub-Saharan Africa?

I don't think any at all. I think Moors were mostly Berbers with smaller amounts of Arabs. So obviously SSA couldn't have contributed to anything because they weren't present. And the food/architecture/culture the Moors brought to Spain was probably derived in large part from Levantines, Byzantines and Persians. However, Wikipedia has been edited to say there were SSA among them.


As a large and diffuse ethnic group, the Moors consisted mostly of Berbers from Morocco and Western Algeria, sub-Saharan Africans from Mauritania, Northern Senegal, and Western Mali, Arab Bedouins, and Arab elite mostly from Yemen and Syria. Most writings on Moors applied darkness of skin as a trait for any and every Muslim invader of Europe.[58] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors#cite_note-58)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors#Population

Also the typical afrocentrist crap you find on the internet says they contributed to the culture and armies.

https://www.city-data.com/forum/history/1738293-were-moors-black.html

The problem is most people without any understanding of genetics are likely to believe those afrocentrist tales. I actually have a friend who I consider pretty reasonable arguing that people are just trying to deny SSAs their history. Some genetic studies showing Moors as non SSA would be great to argue with him. I think they were probably less SSA before the Arab slave trade.

Philjames100
03-07-20, 20:03
Well Moroccan Neolithic samples are more European-like than modern North Africans.

ratchet_fan
03-07-20, 20:08
What food, architecture and culture came to muslim Spain from sub-Saharan Africa?

On a related note, I had the best food I ever ate on my trip to Spain. Granted I haven't been to Italy and France yet so that might be subject to change.

There does seem to be a goal with making Europeans and their culture more "exotic". I see people attributing the use of sour cream and sauerkraut in Central/Eastern European cuisine to Mongols when there is no evidence that is true and Romans had something similar to sauerkraut. Sour cream probably indigenous to Central/Eastern Europe and not a hard invention at that.

You see similar things on this website with people proposing Myceneans and Minoans came from Iran or comments on Eurogenes blog saying the Roman Empire brought Levant_N ancestry to Europe when it really didn't;t.

Palermo Trapani
03-07-20, 21:10
One of the better papers I have personally read is the one by Olade et al 2019 cited below. 271 ancient Iberians, 171 are post 2,000 BC. I have always been interested in the Muslim conquest from Arabia as it spread across Roman North Africa. Not to go into a tangential thread but Saint Augustine, a great Latin Rite Doctor of the Church was a Bishop in Carthage in late 4th/5th century AD till his Death in 430 AD. And again, the provinces of Numidia, Carthage, Libya were all part of the jurisdiction of the Church of Rome. So I have read pretty much of all of the writings for the Early Church Fathers, both West and East, and in addition to Saint Augustine, there were others from Roman North Africa that were great early theologians. Saint Cyprian of Carthage, Saint Clement of Alexandria (more Eastern) to name others. So what happened in Iberia shows that the Moorish Invaders into Spain were mostly Berber, with Arabs probably ruling the Caliphate. There is no SSA ancestry in the early Muslim conquest (711 AD in Iberia) and you only see it in 2 of the 24 samples in the 10th to 16th century, and even then very little. The Arab-Muslim conquest swept up from Arabia into the Levant and Persia, then across North Africa. It wasn't until the very late 10th century when the Muslim Caliphate in the Magreb began to trade and have contact with Kingdoms in modern Ghana to Sudan, etc, and that is when you see more trade with Kingdoms there and of course purchasing slaves that were SSA's. I have read estimates that the number of Blacks taken as slaves by the Arab-Muslim slave trade to be between 15 and 20 Million, mostly female, for I guess reasons we all know.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230.full

Still the results by Olade et al 2019 show the North African ancestry pre-10th Century was local Berber ancestry. Of course this refutes the notion of the "Moors" as a Black population that is pushed by the Afro Centrist Black American pseudo Scientist. There is no such thing as a Country called Moor, closest thing is Roman Mauritania (Roman province adjacent to Numidia) and Moor was a collective term used by Christian Europe to describe peoples from the Maghreb all the way into Persia. That is a hell of lot of different ethnic groups right there. The only thing they had in common was religion.

Asad ibn al-Furat led the "Sacracen" invasion into Sicily in 827 was a Mesopotamian born in what is modern Turkey (Haran) and the army he led was largely from that region (Syria, Lebanon, Iraq) etc. Which kind of goes to what I was saying the term "Moor" is a general or collective term referring the Muslim invaders of Iberia in 711 AD and Sicily in 827 AD as well as periodic raids into Rome and Southern Italy as well that included peoples from a large swath of territory stretching from Maghreb in NW Africa all the way to modern Iran. Anyway, here is Figure 2 from the Olade et al 2019 paper referenced above that lays it out with DNA analysis of 171 ancient Iberia samples that cover the Roman period, the period just before the Muslim invasion all the way up through the 16th century.

https://i.imgur.com/ws4s0ul.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/6cQ22rw.jpg

ratchet_fan
03-07-20, 21:20
One of the better papers I have personally read is the one by Olade et al 2019 cited below. 271 ancient Iberians, 171 are post 2,000 BC. I have always been interested in the Muslim conquest from Arabia as it spread across Roman North Africa. Not to go into a tangential thread but Saint Augustine, a great Latin Rite Doctor of the Church was a Bishop in Carthage in late 4th/5th century AD till his Death in 430 AD. And again, the provinces of Numidia, Carthage, Libya were all part of the jurisdiction of the Church of Rome. So I have read pretty much of all of the writings for the Early Church Fathers, both West and East, and in addition to Saint Augustine, there were others from Roman North Africa that were great early theologians. Saint Cyprian of Carthage, Saint Clement of Alexandria (more Eastern) to name others. So what happened in Iberia shows that the Moorish Invaders into Spain were mostly Berber, with Arabs probably ruling the Caliphate. There is no SSA ancestry in the early Muslim conquest (711 AD in Iberia) and you only see it in 2 of the 24 samples in the 10th to 16th century, and even then very little. The Arab-Muslim conquest swept up from Arabia into the Levant and Persia, then across North Africa. It wasn't until the very late 10th century when the Muslim Caliphate in the Magreb began to trade and have contact with Kingdoms in modern Ghana to Sudan, etc, and that is when you see more trade with Kingdoms there and of course purchasing slaves that were SSA's. I have read estimates that the number of Blacks taken as slaves by the Arab-Muslim slave trade to be between 15 and 20 Million, mostly female, for I guess reasons we all know.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230.full

Still the results by Olade et al 2019 show the North African ancestry pre-10th Century was local Berber ancestry. Of course this refutes the notion of the "Moors" as a Black population that is pushed by the Afro Centrist Black American pseudo Scientist. There is no such thing as a Country called Moor, closest thing is Roman Mauritania (Roman province adjacent to Numidia) and Moor was a collective term used by Christian Europe to describe peoples from the Maghreb all the way into Persia. That is a hell of lot of different ethnic groups right there. The only thing they had in common was religion.

Asad ibn al-Furat led the "Sacracen" invasion into Sicily in 827 was a Mesopotamian born in what is modern Turkey (Haran) and the army he led was largely from that region (Syria, Lebanon, Iraq) etc. Which kind of goes to what I was saying the term "Moor" is a general or collective term referring the Muslim invaders of Iberia in 711 AD and Sicily in 827 AD as well as periodic raids into Rome and Southern Italy as well that included peoples from a large swath of territory stretching from Maghreb in NW Africa all the way to modern Iran. Anyway, here is Figure 2 from the Olade et al 2019 paper referenced above that lays it out with DNA analysis of 171 ancient Iberia samples that cover the Roman period, the period just before the Muslim invasion all the way up through the 16th century.

https://i.imgur.com/ws4s0ul.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/6cQ22rw.jpg

Thanks. Exactly what I was looking for.

And 15-20 million slaves? That seems high.

Besides their religion they had one other thing in common. It seems this term applied to predominantly West Eurasian people not SSA people.

Also this refutes the claims that North Africa used to be more SSA like (I think we all knew that given the same is true for Egypt).

ratchet_fan
03-07-20, 21:24
Well Moroccan Neolithic samples are more European-like than modern North Africans.

Thanks. I'll try to find that paper.

EDIT: Found it.

https://www.pnas.org/content/115/26/6774
https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/115/26/6774/F2.large.jpg

Am I reading Panel D correctly? Mota is modeled as mostly Anatolia_N plus the component that peaks in BedouinB/Algeria?

Palermo Trapani
03-07-20, 21:54
The slavery I am talking about is basically over the period starting 1,000 AD well into the 15th/16th century, talking about 500-600 year period. Those are numbers that I have seen estimated. I will see if I can find a reputable citation(s) for this and link it.

Palermo Trapani
03-07-20, 22:09
ratchet fan: Here is a book review article about a book on Arab-Muslim slave trade, the number here is 11 to 14 million, most of the men were made eunuchs, and in general the ratio was female heavy in terms of slaverly. The book and author is in the article.

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/01/03/04/reviews/010304.04hochsct.html

A pretty well researched article by Desmond Berg, who I know nothing about, but the article is well written.

https://sovereignnations.com/2018/04/30/history-arab-slave-trade-africa/


So maybe 20 million is too high, but 10-15 million seems pretty reliable an estimate.

Philjames100
03-07-20, 22:11
The Berber Garamantes were already raiding sub-Saharan Africa for slaves before 0 BC.

Ygorcs
03-07-20, 22:20
I don't think any at all. I think Moors were mostly Berbers with smaller amounts of Arabs. So obviously SSA couldn't have contributed to anything because they weren't present. And the food/architecture/culture the Moors brought to Spain was probably derived in large part from Levantines, Byzantines and Persians. However, Wikipedia has been edited to say there were SSA among them.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors#Population

Also the typical afrocentrist crap you find on the internet says they contributed to the culture and armies.

https://www.city-data.com/forum/history/1738293-were-moors-black.html

The problem is most people without any understanding of genetics are likely to believe those afrocentrist tales. I actually have a friend who I consider pretty reasonable arguing that people are just trying to deny SSAs their history. Some genetic studies showing Moors as non SSA would be great to argue with him. I think they were probably less SSA before the Arab slave trade.

I think you're dismissing the Berber contribution (not Persian, Levantine or "Byzantine" i.e. Graeco-Roman/Eastern Roman) too fast.

As for SSA there were certainly SSA or heavily SSA-mixed people in some periods of the history of Al-Andalus. The highly sectarian and dogmatic Almoravids conquered much of Northwestern Africa and then Al-Andalus from what is now roughly in Mauritania or even Senegal. Hard to believe the military and political elite of that dynasty had virtually no SSA types. Don't forget the dynasties that ruled both Northwest Africa and Iberia often extended southward very much into lands that have much more SSA admixture. They probably left very little genetic impact in Iberia, most of the migrants to Iberia had already arrived in previous centuries and were mostly Berbers and Arabized Berbers, not even "Arabs proper" or Levantines.

https://assets.sutori.com/user-uploads/image/bd6659d6-7b46-4cb3-88f5-f9880b04080e/2142b515455828788133c366086baab0.jpeg

Ygorcs
03-07-20, 22:24
comments on Eurogenes blog saying the Roman Empire brought Levant_N ancestry to Europe when it really didn't;t.

Are you sure about that? The Roman Imperial and Late Antiquity DNA samples tell another story, and there is substantially more Levantine admixture in modern Sicily and South Italy than in the BA samples from the same regions.

I think people should strive to not favor either more "exotic" origins for their populations, nor favor more "indigenous" and unadmixed origins for their populations. Just let the evidences speak for themselves.

Palermo Trapani
03-07-20, 22:25
The Berber Garamantes were already raiding sub-Saharan Africa for slaves before 0 BC.

The Garamantes were a Sahara Desert Berber Tribe in what is Modern Libya, correct? So they would have closer interactions with SSA tribes in what is modern Chad, Sudan and Niger? I would think.

Duarte
03-07-20, 22:29
ratchet fan: Here is a book review article about a book on Arab-Muslim slave trade, the number here is 11 to 14 million, most of the men were made eunuchs, and in general the ratio was female heavy in terms of slaverly. The book and author is in the article.

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/01/03/04/reviews/010304.04hochsct.html

A pretty well researched article by Desmond Berg, who I know nothing about, but the article is well written.

https://sovereignnations.com/2018/04/30/history-arab-slave-trade-africa/


So maybe 20 million is too high, but 10-15 million seems pretty reliable an estimate.

Just as a counterpoint to this number, dear friend PTrapani: Brazil received 3.6 million black slaves between 1500 and 1850.

https://i.imgur.com/FpoWfpT.jpg


The Brazilian government's attempt to "whiten" the population marked the 19th century (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9culo_XIX) . The government freed African descendants, but did not provide social assistance to former slaves, who were left to fend for themselves. The slave would be replaced by the European immigrant: between 1870 and 1953, about 5.5 million immigrants (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imigrante) entered Brazil , among whom there was a majority of Italians (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italianos)and Portuguese (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugueses) , the government's favorites, as they were white and Latino (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultura_latina) . [ 61 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-61)
The Brazilian government aspired that immigrants should marry mixed-race (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesti%C3%A7o) and black people (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negros) , to dilute the black race in the Brazilian population. The famous painting "Redenção do Can", made in 1895 (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1895)by Modesto Brocos y Gómez, synthesizes the hovering idea at the time: through miscegenation, Brazilians would become whiter with each generation.
The mass entry of European immigrants in the South and Southeast of Brazil has changed relative to the country's demographics. In a few decades it was found that the population of "black and mixed race" origin was surpassed by the "white" population. Marriage between European and Brazilian immigrants only changed the phenotype (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fen%C3%B3tipo) . Genetically, the Brazilian population remains mixed. [ 62 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-62)
In the censuses, the majority of the Brazilian population continues to be classified as white (49.9%), a considerable portion as brown (43.2%) and a very small number as black (6.3%).


European ancestry predominates in the Brazilian population as a whole, in all regions of Brazil, according to the vast majority of all autosomal studies carried out covering the entire population, representing 62% to 77% of the ancestry of the Brazilian population. [ 63 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-wiley1-63)[ 64 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-www1.folha.uol.com.br-64)[ 65 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-alvaro.com.br-65)[ 66 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-bdtd.bce.unb.br-66)[ 67 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-plosone.org-67)[ 68 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-hereditas.com.br-68)[ 69 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-pmid14595874-69) The predominance of European ancestry among Brazilians is explained by the constant arrival of Portuguese colonists, since 1500, which multiplied rapidly mainly through miscegenation (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscigena%C3%A7%C3%A3o)with indigenous and African women, [ 53 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-darcy-53) and this colonization decisively influenced the genetic composition of the current Brazilian. [ 37 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-systematic-37)Between 1872 and 1972, more than 5 million immigrants entered Brazil, 70% from Portugal and Italy and the rest mainly from Spain and Germany. These immigrants settled mainly in the South and Southeast regions and genetic studies show that these are the regions with the greatest European genetics in the country. [ 32 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-msfl2-32)[ 37 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-systematic-37)
The arrival of the Portuguese in the current Brazilian territory led to a reduction in the indigenous population, mainly due to contamination by viruses and bacteria to which the Indians had no immunity. [ 70 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-70)[ 26 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-darcy_1995-26) However, since the beginning of colonization, there was miscegenation between Portuguese men and indigenous women, through the practice of co-mingism, an ancient indigenous practice of incorporating strangers into their community, through the delivery of indigenous girls as wifes. [ 26 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-darcy_1995-26) Nowadays, most Brazilians have some indigenous ancestry, although reduced compared to other countries in Latin America (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Am%C3%A9rica_Latina) . [ 71 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-sephardic-71)This indigenous ancestry is stronger in the Amazon states of the Northern Region, but is present in all other regions of the country. [ 37 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-systematic-37)
Approximately 4 million sub-Saharan Africans were brought to Brazil as slaves over the course of three centuries. [ 29 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-ncbi-29) Although the number of slaves brought to Brazil was large, the internal growth of the black population was very slow. In Brazil, the procreation of slaves was not encouraged, as it was cheaper to bring new slaves (low cost in Africa and high elasticity of supply) than to raise slave children until adolescence (expenses with housing, food, clothing, medicine, etc.). [ 72 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-72) Furthermore, slaves in Brazil had a very low life expectancy, [ 73 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-73)[ 53 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-darcy-53)and even free blacks had comparatively lower demographic growth. [ 74 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-74) Currently, African ancestry is present in all Brazilian regions, with regional variations in intensity. African ancestry is lower than European, but higher than indigenous, in most states. [ 37 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-systematic-37)
Each Brazilian has a unique proportion of Amerindian, European or African ancestors in their genome (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoma) , since the level of mixing varies from individual to individual much more than from region to region. [ 28 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composi%C3%A7%C3%A3o_%C3%A9tnica_do_Brasil#cite_no te-pena1-28)

Palermo Trapani
03-07-20, 22:41
Duarte: Yes, that would be the Transatlantic Slave trade. That is a large number as well, but what often happens in the USA is the Transatlantic Slave trade (European) and its impact today in modern USA politics is always front and center. The Arab-Muslim slave trade started 700 years before the European one and the amount of slaves taken was just as significant. However, the modern USA media does not discuss it nor do many Black Americans discuss it since it would force them to confront, or the ones who embraced say Louis Farrakan's Nation of Islam movement, that the religion of Islam was also imposed on them by an invading Arabs who did enslave untold millions of Blacks from SSA.

Of course some of the Blacks in SSA embraced Islam, without forced conversion, I am sure, but for the ones who didn't, well then slavery was possible when you were from a rival tribe. Mansa Musa from Mali who lived 1280 to 1337 (his name means conquorer) is estimated today by American Economist from sources like (Forbes, WSJ, etc) to be one of the richest men in the world to have ever lived and if he were alive toay, he would be among top 5 richest living today. He conqoured some 24 other Tribes in SSA and acquired all the Gold he could get and Arab accounts, not European sources, document that on a trip to Mali he brought like 12-15,000 Blacks from other SSA tribes/ethnic groups to be sold. In a discussion about Slavery, etc, I pointed this out to a guy on Youtube onetime and I never heard back from him. It destroys the narrative the Europeans did not have willing participants in SSA when the transatlantic slave trade happened. More to the point, Mansa Musa is someone that there is an extensive historical sources on from Arab-Muslims who he traded with and visited on pilgrimages to Mecca and it is clear evidence of Blacks in SSA enslaving other "Black tribes in SSA", not their own people, and selling them into slavery.

ratchet_fan
03-07-20, 22:47
I think you're dismissing the Berber contribution (not Persian, Levantine or "Byzantine" i.e. Graeco-Roman/Eastern Roman) too fast.

As for SSA there were certainly SSA or heavily SSA-mixed people in some periods of the history of Al-Andalus. The highly sectarian and dogmatic Almoravids conquered much of Northwestern Africa and then Al-Andalus from what is now roughly in Mauritania or even Senegal. Hard to believe the military and political elite of that dynasty had virtually no SSA types. Don't forget the dynasties that ruled both Northwest Africa and Iberia often extended southward very much into lands that have much more SSA admixture. They probably left very little genetic impact in Iberia, most of the migrants to Iberia had already arrived in previous centuries and were mostly Berbers and Arabized Berbers, not even "Arabs proper" or Levantines.

https://assets.sutori.com/user-uploads/image/bd6659d6-7b46-4cb3-88f5-f9880b04080e/2142b515455828788133c366086baab0.jpeg

Maybe. But the genes don't show much SSA influence (the samples Palermo posted and modern Iberians). You're probably right that Berbers were the main contributors but some of the contributions to food/architecture does indicate there were West Asian influences as well. Either way even if SSA were present it was in small numbers and I'm not seeing their specific contributions to the food, architecture, and cuisine of the region.

Carlos
04-07-20, 01:49
Ancient andalusian NO
Andalusí for Al Andalus

Andalusian for Andalusia

STOP

Andalusians do not feel that we are heirs nor do we feel a continuity of Al Andalus with our region Andalusia


A defeat and a victory


End

I hope it is clear to you

Philjames100
04-07-20, 02:21
The Garamantes were a Sahara Desert Berber Tribe in what is Modern Libya, correct? So they would have closer interactions with SSA tribes in what is modern Chad, Sudan and Niger? I would think.

Yeah.

"New light on the development of agriculture and its sociopolitical consequences has recently been thrown by P.J. Munson, who carried out archaeological research in the region of Dhar Tichitt-Walata [southern Mauritania]. Radiocarbon dates indicate a sequence of settlements from about 1100 to 300 BC. […] Bones and carbonized plant remains suggest that people lived on the herding of cattle and goats with some hunting of wild animals and a limited amount of fishing. Wild seeds and fruits were collected, and a few impressions of seeds of the millet Pennisetum on the pottery may indicate a limited incipient cultivation. These were Neolithic sites: there were no indications of the use of metal. […]

The final Neolithic phase, dated between about 600 and 300 BC, was one of very serious disturbances. […] Rock paintings of mounted warriors and tifinar inscriptions, as well as pre-Islamic Libyco-Berber tombs, clearly indicate that the culture of the cultivators was destroyed by the nomad invaders from the north ... horse-riding Lybico-Berber nomads.”

‘Ancient Ghana and Mali’, p.11 (https://www.sahistory.org.za/sites/default/files/file%20uploads%20/nehemia_levtzion_ancient_ghana_and_malibook4you.pd f).

Duarte
04-07-20, 02:40
https://i.imgur.com/1T31dR3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jKZvPO8.jpg

Ygorcs
04-07-20, 03:29
Ancient andalusian NO
Andalusí for Al Andalus

Andalusian for Andalusia

STOP

Andalusians do not feel that we are heirs nor do we feel a continuity of Al Andalus with our region Andalusia


A defeat and a victory


End

I hope it is clear to you

Am I sensing some strangely defensive reaction at the fact modern Andalusians may descend from and inherit cultural and genetic traits developed during the time of Al-Andalus before the full completion of the Reconquista, as if that were unexplainably some shame and an outrageous accusation?

bigsnake49
04-07-20, 03:38
Duarte: Yes, that would be the Transatlantic Slave trade. That is a large number as well, but what often happens in the USA is the Transatlantic Slave trade (European) and its impact today in modern USA politics is always front and center. The Arab-Muslim slave trade started 700 years before the European one and the amount of slaves taken was just as significant. However, the modern USA media does not discuss it nor do many Black Americans discuss it since it would force them to confront, or the ones who embraced say Louis Farrakan's Nation of Islam movement, that the religion of Islam was also imposed on them by an invading Arabs who did enslave untold millions of Blacks from SSA.

Of course some of the Blacks in SSA embraced Islam, without forced conversion, I am sure, but for the ones who didn't, well then slavery was possible when you were from a rival tribe. Mansa Musa from Mali who lived 1280 to 1337 (his name means conquorer) is estimated today by American Economist from sources like (Forbes, WSJ, etc) to be one of the richest men in the world to have ever lived and if he were alive toay, he would be among top 5 richest living today. He conqoured some 24 other Tribes in SSA and acquired all the Gold he could get and Arab accounts, not European sources, document that on a trip to Mali he brought like 12-15,000 Blacks from other SSA tribes/ethnic groups to be sold. In a discussion about Slavery, etc, I pointed this out to a guy on Youtube onetime and I never heard back from him. It destroys the narrative the Europeans did not have willing participants in SSA when the transatlantic slave trade happened. More to the point, Mansa Musa is someone that there is an extensive historical sources on from Arab-Muslims who he traded with and visited on pilgrimages to Mecca and it is clear evidence of Blacks in SSA enslaving other "Black tribes in SSA", not their own people, and selling them into slavery.
Both Romans and Greeks had slaves and were engaged in enslaving and trading slaves on a pretty massive scale. So were all the other European populations. I don't excuse it or condone it but I acknowledge it.

Palermo Trapani
04-07-20, 03:46
Both Romans and Greeks had slaves and were engaged in enslaving and trading slaves on a pretty massive scale. So were all the other European populations. I don't excuse it or condone it but I acknowledge it.

No doubt they both did, as did the Persians, Egyptians, the Assyrians, Babylonians, etc. Slavery is as old as humanity. The reality is that it is in the Western Tradition that slavery was ultimately outlawed. Ancient Greece being one of the first to outlaw it, from the Old Testament, Cyrus the Great outlawed it in ancient Persia during his reign. But from medieval times, it is a gradual understanding in the Western Tradition that slavery was unjust. So you kind of furthered the point I was making, slavery did not start with the European Transatlantic slave trade. It was however, that European countries starting in the late 18th century, began to totally outlaw it.

But the main point of the the thread is al-Andalus

Carlos
04-07-20, 05:21
Am I sensing some strangely defensive reaction at the fact modern Andalusians may descend from and inherit cultural and genetic traits developed during the time of Al-Andalus before the full completion of the Reconquista, as if that were unexplainably some shame and an outrageous accusation?

You can think what you want and interpret it or misrepresent my words as you like.


I am an Andalusian of parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, great-grandparents and trastarabuelos.

And I don't know they are pulling the term ancient Andalusians and modern Andalusians out of their sleeve.


Al Andalus is one thing and Andalusia another

Al-Ándalus (in classical Arabic: الأندلس) is the name that the Muslims gave to the Iberian peninsula in the Middle Ages

Andalusia is a Spanish autonomous community recognized as a historical nationality by its Statute of Autonomy, 4 made up of the provinces of Almería, Cádiz, Córdoba, Granada, Huelva, Jaén, Málaga and Seville. Its capital is Seville, seat of the Junta de Andalucía. The seat of the Superior Court of Justice of Andalusia is in Granada.

I repeat to you that Andalusí is not the same as Andalusian, solve the situation with your languages.

andalusí
adjetivo
De al-Andalus o relacionado con la España musulmana.

andaluz, andaluza
(https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGRV_enES876ES876&sxsrf=ALeKk03ETjHoCgktNdFDCJ6Cyl7J_1kzww:159383252 3525&q=c%C3%B3mo+se+pronuncia+andaluz&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAOMIfcRoyS3w8sc9YSmDSWtOXmPU4uIN KMrPK81LzkwsyczPExLmYglJLcoV4pbi5GJPzEtJzCmtsmJRYk ot5lnEKpV8eHNuvkJxqkIBTJMCVA0AccoUNlsAAAA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjumZXr0LLqAhUG4BoKHTgLAxUQ3eEDMAB6BAgIE Ag)adjetivo



1.
Relativo a Andalucía, comunidad autónoma española, o a sus habitantes.

2.
adjetivo · nombre masculino y femenino
[persona] Que es de Andalucía.


Can you interpret this?


One thing exists and is alive and the other only exists in history books, it is not so difficult to understand.


Our heritage in agriculture and livestock and gastronomy comes from the people of the Christian kingdoms who were settling in the reconquered territories, what can find three monuments of the time, I do not know how many words and any other little thing ok but are they already ours? there is no feeling of continuity, remember, war, reconquest, expulsions, America, please, what are you talking about.

Duarte
04-07-20, 05:22
Ancient andalusian NO
Andalusí for Al Andalus

Andalusian for Andalusia

STOP

Andalusians do not feel that we are heirs nor do we feel a continuity of Al Andalus with our region Andalusia


A defeat and a victory


End

I hope it is clear to you

Dear friend @Carlos.
We have no way of choosing our ancestors.
So I say that the importance of Islamic culture in the Iberian Peninsula and in Europe cannot be denied.
I don't have to be happy or sad because I have or don't have autosomal matches with this or that population. I just want the truth. I don't want to deceive myself. It only matters to me to know where I came from. The fact that I don't like a particular culture is no reason for me to deny the importance of this culture in the historical context or say that I have nothing to do with this culture. If I wanted to be deluded I would not do any genetic tests. I would just say: I am Celtic and you cannot prove otherwise.
Think about that and not suffer so, my belived Iberian fellow. Cheers. :good_job::smile:

Carlos
04-07-20, 05:32
Dear friend @Carlos.
We have no way of choosing our ancestors.
So I say that the influence of Islamic culture in the Iberian Peninsula and in Europe cannot be denied.
I don't have to be happy or sad because I have or don't have autosomal matches with this or that population. I just want the truth. I don't want to deceive myself. It only matters to me to know where I came from. The fact that I don't like a particular culture is no reason for me to deny it or say that I have nothing to do with this culture. If I wanted to be deluded I would not do any genetic tests. I would just say: I am Celtic and you cannot prove otherwise.
Think about that and not suffer so, my belived Iberian fellow. Cheers. :good_job::smile:

You can't hopelessly understand it. Al Andalus existed ok but what may seem to come from that time is dead and buried ok but it is already ours.


Let's see if you understand me, there is no feeling of continuity. Andalus was part of the Muslim world, it is another world. Andalusia is an autonomous community of Spain, there is no continuity, we do not feel that continuity but if everything is documented I do not know why we want to refresh an issue that for us is a gap, a before and after.

This is a real nightmare. When they want to give you an identity that is not yours it is horrible, I do not wish it even on my worst enemy.

The islam of the Iberian peninsula was thrown away, an 800-year war, how can you think of any memory or feeling of belonging to that time?

No, no y no

Deird
04-07-20, 05:44
https://i.imgur.com/1T31dR3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jKZvPO8.jpg

Muslims never occupied much in Southern France, it was more a foothold.
Some muslim graves of that time have nevertheless be found.

Deird
04-07-20, 05:47
We have no way of choosing our ancestors.
So I say that the influence of Islamic culture in the Iberian Peninsula and in Europe cannot be denied.

The medieval influence of Islamic culture on Europe is about zero.
And, in fact, exactly the same can be said about the influence of Jewish culture.
Both equate about zero.
The rest is rewriting history.

Duarte
04-07-20, 05:58
The medieval influence of Islamic culture on Europe is about zero.
And, in fact, exactly the same can be said about the influence of Jewish culture.
Both equate about zero.
The rest is rewriting history.

Jews and Mozarabs expelled from Portugal were the first settlers to arrive in Brazil. So, for me they are important. I cannot speak of modern Spain or Portugal.

IMO, the importance of Islamic culture in the Iberian Peninsula and in Europe cannot be denied. The fact that I don't like a particular culture is no reason for me to deny the importance of this culture in the historical context or say that I have nothing to do with this culture.
Cheers.

ratchet_fan
04-07-20, 16:22
No doubt they both did, as did the Persians, Egyptians, the Assyrians, Babylonians, etc. Slavery is as old as humanity. The reality is that it is in the Western Tradition that slavery was ultimately outlawed. Ancient Greece being one of the first to outlaw it, from the Old Testament, Cyrus the Great outlawed it in ancient Persia during his reign. But from medieval times, it is a gradual understanding in the Western Tradition that slavery was unjust. So you kind of furthered the point I was making, slavery did not start with the European Transatlantic slave trade. It was however, that European countries starting in the late 18th century, began to totally outlaw it.

But the main point of the the thread is al-Andalus

Greece and Persia were way ahead of their times. Too bad they couldn't get along(I mean just come to a truce) and spent so much time fighting each other that Arabs and Turks were able to take advantage of the situation.

ratchet_fan
04-07-20, 16:25
The medieval influence of Islamic culture on Europe is about zero.
And, in fact, exactly the same can be said about the influence of Jewish culture.
Both equate about zero.
The rest is rewriting history.

I'm not the biggest fan of that culture but to deny their is influence is wrong. Plenty of goods came through Muslim kingdoms (citrus, spices, dishes such as Turron, arroz con pollo). Not to mention even Gothic architecture borrowed the pointed arch from Islamic architecture.

Carlos
04-07-20, 16:42
I'm not the biggest fan of that culture but to deny their is influence is wrong. Plenty of goods came through Muslim kingdoms (citrus, spices, dishes such as Turron, arroz con pollo). Not to mention even Gothic architecture borrowed the pointed arch from Islamic architecture.

Also cite the influences of European culture on the Muslim world.

Out of the topic. I love rice with seafood with what you want but I can't stand meat rice.

https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3573/3320684798_d9552a115f.jpg

We all influence each other

They may feel that the fast food place is theirs while they eat at no time maybe they are thinking about the U.S.A. I visit him once a year or every two years as a teenager I went more and when I ate there I did not think he was of U.S.A. origin. in fact when I eat I can't think.

ratchet_fan
04-07-20, 16:50
Also cite the influences of European culture on the Muslim world.

Out of the topic. I love rice with seafood with what you want but I can't stand meat rice.

https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3573/3320684798_d9552a115f.jpg

We all influence each other

They may feel that the fast food place is theirs while they eat at no time maybe they are thinking about the U.S.A. I visit him once a year or every two years as a teenager I went more and when I ate there I did not think he was of U.S.A. origin. in fact when I eat I can't think.

I never said they didn't exist. Of course there was plenty of European influence on the Muslim World. And if we consider Byzantine Anatolia as a part of Europe (I would) then that increases even more. However, saying there were SSA influences is rewriting history.

italouruguayan
04-07-20, 17:00
I don't think any at all. I think Moors were mostly Berbers with smaller amounts of Arabs. So obviously SSA couldn't have contributed to anything because they weren't present. And the food/architecture/culture the Moors brought to Spain was probably derived in large part from Levantines, Byzantines and Persians. However, Wikipedia has been edited to say there were SSA among them.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors#Population

Also the typical afrocentrist crap you find on the internet says they contributed to the culture and armies.

https://www.city-data.com/forum/history/1738293-were-moors-black.html

The problem is most people without any understanding of genetics are likely to believe those afrocentrist tales. I actually have a friend who I consider pretty reasonable arguing that people are just trying to deny SSAs their history. Some genetic studies showing Moors as non SSA would be great to argue with him. I think they were probably less SSA before the Arab slave trade.


The idea that the presence of sub-Saharan Africans in Muslim Spain was important seems quite widespread. I remember that I was surprised by a chapter of the famous TV series "Vikings", when the Vikings, before venturing into the Mediterranean for the first time, made a stopover in southern Spain. And the local population looks surprisingly mulatto ...

Carlos
04-07-20, 17:31
Yes, Al Andalus had to be multi-ethnic and there must have been obviously black Muslims, I don't know in what number or degree.

I suffer a lot with the extras that North America uses to illustrate episodes of the history of the Iberian Peninsula, especially in relation to the Discovery and Conquest of America, and yet when it illustrates the same for Portugal, they would say that exactly.

Palermo Trapani
04-07-20, 17:33
The idea that the presence of sub-Saharan Africans in Muslim Spain was important seems quite widespread. I remember that I was surprised by a chapter of the famous TV series "Vikings", when the Vikings, before venturing into the Mediterranean for the first time, made a stopover in southern Spain. And the local population looks surprisingly mulatto ...

TV Shows tend to me done with PC ideology. The great thing about DNA is will tell the story. The Olade et al 2019 paper to me hits on point. There are 171 samples from 2000 BC till the reconquest period in the late 15th. So you go through the Phoenicians having sea ports in Iberia, North Africa, Roman periods in North Africa and Iberia when both were part of the empire up to 711 AD when the Muslim invasion occurrred, no SSA ancestry in no samples, you have to get to the period 10th-16th century were 2 of 24 samples show some SSA ancestry.

So with that many samples, I think basic statistical theory when N=30 are greater, central limit theorem kicks in and the distribution should approximate a normal distribution, could be off if the samples are not representative of the broader population, but still should give us good basis to make inferences. What it tells us is that the invaders in Iberia were Berber-Levant ancestry. As the Umayyad Caliphate expanded further South and started caravans with kingdoms in SSA around 1,000 AD, they acquired more slaves from that part of the world and you see that show up in the data in the period 1000-1600 AD.

So regardless, it refutes the American Black Afro-centrist narrative that the "Moors" who invaded Spain in 711 AD were Black SSA. Not true the same way the Verena J. Schuenemann et al 2017 paper "Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods" refuted the ancient Egyptians were Black SSA.

ratchet_fan
04-07-20, 17:34
Yes, Al Andalus had to be multi-ethnic and there must have been obviously black Muslims, I don't know in what number or degree.

I suffer a lot with the extras that North America uses to illustrate episodes of the history of the Iberian Peninsula, especially in relation to the Discovery and Conquest of America, and yet when it illustrates the same for Portugal, they would say that exactly.

Yes it was multi ethnic but that doesn't mean there were SSAs(other than small numbers as slaves). I think the genetic data shows that the multi ethnic nature consisted primarily of North Africans, West Asians and Southern Europeans.

ratchet_fan
04-07-20, 17:36
TV Shows tend to me done with PC ideology. The great thing about DNA is will tell the story. The Olade et al 2019 paper to me hits on point. There are 171 samples from 2000 BC till the reconquest period in the late 15th. So you go through the Phoenicians having sea ports in Iberia, North Africa, Roman periods in North Africa and Iberia when both were part of the empire up to 711 AD when the Muslim invasion occurrred, no SSA ancestry in no samples, you have to get to the period 10th-16th century were 2 of 24 samples show some SSA ancestry.

So with that many samples, I think basic statistical theory when N=30 are greater, central limit theorem kicks in and the distribution should approximate a normal distribution, could be off if the samples are not representative of the broader population, but still should give us good basis to make inferences. What it tells us is that the invaders in Iberia were Berber-Levant ancestry. As the Umayyad Caliphate expanded further South and started caravans with kingdoms in SSA around 1,000 AD, they acquired more slaves from that part of the world and you see that show up in the data in the period 1000-1600 AD.

So regardless, it refutes the American Black Afro-centrist narrative that the "Moors" who invaded Spain in 711 AD were Black SSA. Not true the same way the Verena J. Schuenemann et al 2017 paper "Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods" refuted the ancient Egyptians were Black SSA.

Also wrong is this idea that the small number of SSAs had any significant influence on culture. The culture of this period in Spain was a fusion of North African, Arab proper and native European influences.

Carlos
04-07-20, 17:42
There was no such merger if an apparent coexistence loaded with problems and without flavors for non-dominant groups at the time and even among themselves those who dominated there was no consensus and they were arguing and antagonizing each other all the time a pressure cooker that finally had to explode TtoG

Deird
04-07-20, 17:44
IMO, the importance of Islamic culture in the Iberian Peninsula and in Europe cannot be denied.

I repeat. Said "importance of Islamic culture" does not exist.
There's nothing to be denied.



The fact that I don't like a particular culture is no reason for me to deny the importance of this culture in the historical context or say that I have nothing to do with this culture.

Personal feelings are irrelevant.
Historical facts have it that there is just no medieval influence of Islamic culture (especially) in (Western) Europe.

ratchet_fan
04-07-20, 17:51
There was no such merger if an apparent coexistence loaded with problems and without flavors for non-dominant groups at the time and even among themselves those who dominated there was no consensus and they were arguing and antagonizing each other all the time a pressure cooker that finally had to explode TtoG

Clearly it wasn't a peaceful time. I agree with that.

Carlos
04-07-20, 17:54
American cinema is undoubtedly the most watched and the most produced in the world if in the coming years for other types of issues they will want to give references to the African-American community many historical films from many parts of the world including Europe will appear with actors and extras blacks. When I studied film script 20 years ago, the professor suggested the importance of female protagonists in movies and we have seen the evolution of the role of even historical female characters with a male role. If they are fantasy films nothing bothers me but when they are historical films I would like them to be as exact as possible in everything possible.

Deird
04-07-20, 17:55
I'm not the biggest fan of that culture but to deny their is influence is wrong. Plenty of goods came through Muslim kingdoms (citrus, spices, dishes such as Turron, arroz con pollo). Not to mention even Gothic architecture borrowed the pointed arch from Islamic architecture.

This is really ridiculous.
Why would people need muslims to invent Turron or the pointed arch??

Palermo Trapani
04-07-20, 18:25
American cinema is undoubtedly the most watched and the most produced in the world if in the coming years for other types of issues they will want to give references to the African-American community many historical films from many parts of the world including Europe will appear with actors and extras blacks. When I studied film script 20 years ago, the professor suggested the importance of female protagonists in movies and we have seen the evolution of the role of even historical female characters with a male role. If they are fantasy films nothing bothers me but when they are historical films I would like them to be as exact as possible in everything possible.

I agree 100% with what you wrote. Fantasy films or Science-Fi, should have various ethnic groups represented. One of the great things about the original Star Trek was that it had a multi-ethnic cast on the Enterprise in the 23rd century. Having Michelle Nichols (Black-African American) as Uhura and George Takei as Sulu (American of Asian-Japanese ancestry) in the cast was I think a brilliant stroke of casting. It probably helped inspire thousands of young kids to think they could be part of what was then America's goal and space program to reach the moon, which as we know happened in July of 1969. Game of Thrones having different ethnic groups in it was fine, even though it was largely based on the War of the Roses in England, with some references to ancient Rome and Greece and great kingdoms of the Near East.

However, historical revision by inserting ethnic groups into historical characters that are not accurate is nonsense and reflects a political deconstructionist ideology that is so rampant in the entertainment industry as well as many Liberal arts, Education, Sociology departments across American academia today.

Duarte
04-07-20, 18:35
I repeat. Said "importance of Islamic culture" does not exist.
There's nothing to be denied.




Personal feelings are irrelevant.
Historical facts have it that there is just no medieval influence of Islamic culture (especially) in (Western) Europe.

Do not approach the issue of Al-Andalus as if it were a problem exclusive to modern Spaniards or modern Andalusians. Remember that Portugal was in the area of ​​influence of the Al-Andalus Culture. On the other hand, Portugal consolidated itself as a national state before Spain. In addition, Berbers and Jews settled in Iberia long before the Visigoths arrived. Seems that the last ones (Visigoths) are the source of your national pride.

ratchet_fan
04-07-20, 19:01
This is really ridiculous.
Why would people need muslims to invent Turron or the pointed arch??

Why would any people need any people to invent anything? There's a lot Muslims borrowed from Europe. Nobody's saying why would they need Europeans to build that?

Vallicanus
04-07-20, 19:07
The medieval influence of Islamic culture on Europe is about zero.
And, in fact, exactly the same can be said about the influence of Jewish culture.
Both equate about zero.
The rest is rewriting history.

What a biased statement to make.

Anti-Semitic and Islamophobic at the same time!

Philjames100
04-07-20, 19:39
Gothic architecture borrowed the pointed arch from Islamic architecture.

What's the evidence for that?

Angela
04-07-20, 19:39
Deird has clearly never read actual history books in his entire life.

Maybe wikipedia will be less taxing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe



As for Jews not contributing to European culture, that's perhaps even more absurd. What percentage do you think the Jews constitute of the European nobel prize winners?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_West_European_Jews#Academics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_East_European_Jews


If we're to limit ourselves to the medieval period, see:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Judaism/Medieval-European-Judaism-950-1750

Could anyone be more ignorant?

Any more of this and he's going on a long, long, sabbatical.

Philjames100
04-07-20, 19:45
Are the contributions made to medieval science by Muslims actually a part of 'Islamic culture'? What's Islamic about them exactly?

Philjames100
04-07-20, 19:52
People refer to medieval Middle Eastern science as 'Islamic science' https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/magazine/2016/11-12/muslim-medicine-scientific-discovery-islam/

whereas 'Christian science' is just an odd American sect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science

Angela
04-07-20, 19:58
Are the contributions made to medieval science by Muslims actually a part of 'Islamic culture'? What's Islamic about them exactly?

The Islamic culture of the period revered scholarship; they valued and not only saved but translated the treatises of the Greeks and Romans, without which they would have been lost. They also promoted continued experimentation and scientific and engineering development.

The achievements of the individuals of a culture almost always stem from the values and situations made available by that culture.

You could say the same about Renaissance culture in Italy and the Low Countries, or the extraordinary achievements of the U.S. in many spheres.

People don't exist in a vacuum; not even scientists or musicians or artists. They're always a part of their culture even when they think they are going against their culture.

As to your post 58 I disagree with the conclusions of those people. European science (or American), stems from European "Christian" culture and its values, even if it's not recognized.

ratchet_fan
04-07-20, 20:02
What's the evidence for that?

Its not for sure but likely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_architecture#Oriental_influence

Pointed arches are probably older than Islam but they really took off with Islamic architecture. Nothing's for sure but it seems likely.

ratchet_fan
04-07-20, 20:03
People refer to medieval Middle Eastern science as 'Islamic science' https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/magazine/2016/11-12/muslim-medicine-scientific-discovery-islam/

whereas 'Christian science' is just an odd American sect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science

That's a fair point.

Philjames100
04-07-20, 20:32
they valued and not only saved but translated the treatises of the Greeks and Romans, without which they would have been lost.

Well that's not true. Muslims conquered areas that had collections of Greek and Roman texts. Some of these were translated into Arabic, but translation into Arabic isn't what saved them from being lost. And Muslims were only interested in, or only allowed to be interested in, certain types of Greek and Roman texts.

Most Greek texts that we have today were preserved in the Byzantine Empire, and in other parts of Europe in the Middle Ages. Almost all of the translations we have are direct from the original Greek and Latin (and all of the significant texts are direct from Greek and Latin), not from Arabic. Some Arabic translations from Greek were used in western Europe in the earlier Middle Ages, but these were replaced with translations direct from Greek when they became available.

Angela
04-07-20, 20:54
^^Read the freaking article...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe

There are also entire books on it. For goodness sakes' where do you people get your information?

Yes, the Byzantines had them first, but in case you forgot, the Muslims took over the Byzantine Empire and then custody of those manuscripts.

Stop trying to write them and their accomplishments out of history because you don't like them.

You're going to join Deird if you're not careful. There's no place for Nordicist BS here.

Carlos
04-07-20, 21:35
Do not approach the issue of Al-Andalus as if it were a problem exclusive to modern Spaniards or modern Andalusians. Remember that Portugal was in the area of ​​influence of the Al-Andalus Culture. On the other hand, Portugal consolidated itself as a national state before Spain. In addition, Berbers and Jews settled in Iberia long before the Visigoths arrived. Seems that the last ones (Visigoths) are the source of your national pride.

We contemplate the whole story, nobody is in Spain thinking exclusively of the Visigoths.


During Francoism it was obligatory to learn the complete list of the Gothic kings, I did not have that time and they did not make me learn any list, I on my own did learn that of the Roman emperors, really the names of the Gothic kings for Our tastes today are appalling.


The victors have never been given the identity of the defeated who were also expelled; Although they currently find one or two snp or haplogroups or whatever they want from that time, because victory over Al Andalus is not a racial issue, nor are the expulsions, the reasons are different.


That is our feeling, now if someone wants to give other interpretations, they are free to do so, but they will be wrong.


Al Andalus we do not feel ours, it was the enemy that is defeated and expelled, that easy.

Ygorcs
04-07-20, 21:40
One thing exists and is alive and the other only exists in history books, it is not so difficult to understand.

Yes, it is difficult to understand, because the very term ANCESTRY and HERITAGE (whether genetic, cultural, or both) necessarily implies people that only exist now in history books, they're long dead, but they influence later generations on a more obvious or deeper level. By your token, since Germanic tribes and the medieval Germanic kingdoms only exist in history books, then modern Germans and Scandinavians have absolutely no link at all with those ancient populations. And of course they have no continuity at all with the Germanic peoples before their shift to Christianity, right?


If, according to you Al-Andalus was completely different because it belonged to the "Islamic culture", as if Iberians and their culture had simply disappeared because of the PARTIAL (not even total, have you ever heard about Mozarabs?) Islamicization of the region, then I presume that Scandinavia has no links at all to the Viking Era, and Italians are fundamentally different from those pagan Italians with their strange religion and morals, right? Oh, my, how much people can strive to not accept their roots just because of biases that they probably aren't even able to recognize in themselves now!



Our heritage in agriculture and livestock and gastronomy comes from the people of the Christian kingdoms who were settling in the reconquered territories, what can find three monuments of the time, I do not know how many words and any other little thing ok but are they already ours? there is no feeling of continuity, remember, war, reconquest, expulsions, America, please, what are you talking about.


Oh, of course, you modern Andalusians have nothing to do with those ancient people and culture of Al-Andalus... except, of course, the very name of the region, the very name of a large (perhaps even the majority) of toponyms in the region, the very ancient architecture that drives millions of tourists to visit Andalusia every year, a large part of the PEOPLE's ancestors themselves, who simply switched from Christianity to Islam and again to Christianity between the 8th and the 16th centuries, and so on. Oh, yes, almost nothing in common, modern Andalusia is nothing but a bunch of Asturians, Basques and Castillians living over the totally depopulated and forgotten ruins of Al-Andalus, building a society that had absolutely no link with the previous inhabitants of the land. And, of course, millions of people were expelled from Al-Andalus even if the truth is that that expulsion only happened when when all that remained of Al-Andalus was the tiny emirate of Granada, and most Andalusi people had long been under Christian rule and once again Christianized. Yeah, right. lol

(FWIW, you should by know now that many then novel agricultural techniques that allowed Iberia to flourish in the medieval era were brought by those Arabs and Berbers that you want nothing to do with.)


Why do you think you should deny historic and ancestral ties that are just unquestionably obvious if not due to ethnic and religious prejudice? Please let us understand what drives your aim here.



I am an Andalusian of parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, great-grandparents and trastarabuelos.


Yeah, just like there are millions of Britons "of parentsm grandparents, great-grandparents, great-great-grandparents, and trastaruabuelos". That still won't erase the fact that their ethnicity and their national culture was deeply influenced by Celts that already lived in Britain since Antiquity, Germanic migrants that came from what is now Netherlands, Northern Germany and Denmark, and Norman and French people throughout the Middle Ages (especially on a cultural level).


I find it so funny that you guys really think we can't notice the fact that European influences are easily accepted when discussing cultural and genetic changes, but the very moment a North African or Levantine influence is even suggested there comes the splitting of hairs and the nitpicking to deny or diminish it as much as one can possibly get. But of course that has nothing to do with some xenophobia or racism, oh, no, not at all, it's just a "misrepresentation" and "misinterpretation". Perhaps those who also identify with that kind of attitude can pretend they find that explanation convincing.

Palermo Trapani
04-07-20, 21:43
Well that's not true. Muslims conquered areas that had collections of Greek and Roman texts. Some of these were translated into Arabic, but translation into Arabic isn't what saved them from being lost. And Muslims were only interested in, or only allowed to be interested in, certain types of Greek and Roman texts.

Most Greek texts that we have today were preserved in the Byzantine Empire, and in other parts of Europe in the Middle Ages. Almost all of the translations we have are direct from the original Greek and Latin, not from Arabic. Some Arabic translations from Greek were used in western Europe in the earlier Middle Ages, but these were replaced with translations direct from Greek when they became available.

I am going to have to agree with Philjames here and defend the tradition of Christendom, both West and East. So upfront, I am going to fully disclose I am a orthodox Catholic in Doctrine (Nicene Creed and Apostles Creed) even though I will mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, say up front have my faults. So my post that follows is through this context and perspective.

I think the Greek texts were all preserved in the Byzantine-Eastern Churches, Modern Eastern Orthodoxy today. Much of the Tradition in the major Eastern Churches in Antioch and Alexandria were part of the Eastern Churches and tradition. The Council of Nicea (Canon 6) gave a primacy to the Churches in Antioch and Alexandria, in their regions, since Rome has always had a primacy. More to the the point, the Church in Alexandria's Liturgy came from Greek Liturgies and has influence of some of the Great Eastern/Greek Doctors (Saint Basil the Great, Saint Gregory of Nazinianus) and also has influence of the Liturgy of Saint Mark the Evangelist. According to Saint Papias, who Saint Irenaeus writing in about 180AD indicates was a pupil and friend of Saint Poycapr, but a hearer of Saint John the Apostle, Saint Mark was in Rome with Saint Peter and his Gospel reflects the preaching of Saint Peter in Rome. The Historian Eusebius notes Mark was the first Bishop of Alexandria. So we have clear Greek texts in Alexandria.

In Antioch, the Greek Liturgy of Saint James is the basis, but there are Syriac (translations) versions of it as well. So much of the Greek texts, both secular and Ecclesial were preserved in Churches under the jurisdiction of Alexandria and Antioch.

When the Muslims conquered former Christian lands in former Eastern Roman empire, they did translate all the Greek texts into Arabic, that is true. As Western Christendom was cut off from the actual Greek texts held in Monastaries, Chruches in the East, Medieval and renaissance Catholics (Western Church) generally only had access to the Arabic translations as they reconquered lands that were invaded by Muslims.

As for the Western Tradition (Latin Text), we have very little extant Ancient Latin writings secular and Catholic that have survived. Rather translations of the extant actual texts. However, I will point out very clearly whether some here like it or not, it was the Church of Rome that preserved all of the Secular and Ecclesial Latin Texts that have come down to us. This occurred partially with the Church of Rome directly but more so with all the Monastic traditions that developed after the Fall of the Western Roman Empire. I will give a shout out to the Benedectines here, even though I am Dominican educated K-8, the Benedictines who were formed in Central Italy about 530 AD, some 50 years after the collapse in Rome, hand copied all the extant Latin Texts that were available to them and passed them down through the centuries.

So I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the narrative that the the Medieval Europeans only rediscovered ancient knowledge because the Arabs preserved it. A few examples we have of preservation of early manuscripts and Christendom to make my point.

The oldest complete Bible we have is the Codex Vaticanus, from mid 4th century and written in Greek. It is at the Vatican. Another ancient Codex, the Codex Alexandrinus, a Greek Bible from 5th century, is the property of the Church of England and British Museum I believe. While there is no original Latin Vulgate of Saint Jerome, the Codex Amiatius has a copy of the Latin Vulgate (oldest we have) that was produced by the Benedictines in England!, how about that, back when you guys were still, oh well, I will be ecumenical here.:good_job:, it sometime later was transferred to a Monastery in Florence and is displayed in a museum there, my guess is when King Henry the VIII broke away, lots of the earlier Latin Text were sent back to Rome and the rest of Italy.

The other ancient Codex, the Codex Sinaiticus, another Greek OT and NT, is not in one place, most of it is also in the British Museum. It was probably written in the Levant.

So even with my disclosure up front of my personal religious beliefs, I think the what I wrote does indicate the fact that it was the the Church in both West and East that preserved much of the Latin and Greek texts. Since Greek was the lingua franca in many parts of the Eastern Roman empire and it was the Liturgical language of the Church there, Arabs would have been conversant in Greek and thus able to translate those ancient Greek texts from the primary Eastern Christian Greek sources and bring them with them as they expanded West. That is true. But some of the Monks in the West still spoke some Greek as well so some might have also been translated in the West, Latin obviously and those works were translated by the Church in the West. The Arabs-Muslims did take advantage of the ancient knowledge from the Greeks and Latin text and use it to their advantage, yes.

Carlos
04-07-20, 22:01
Yes, it is difficult to understand, because the very term ANCESTRY and HERITAGE (whether genetic, cultural, or both) necessarily implies people that only exist now in history books, they're long dead, but they influence later generations on a more obvious or deeper level. By your token, since Germanic tribes and the medieval Germanic kingdoms only exist in history books, then modern Germans and Scandinavians have absolutely no link at all with those ancient populations. And of course they have no continuity at all with the Germanic peoples before their shift to Christianity, right?


If, according to you Al-Andalus was completely different because it belonged to the "Islamic culture", as if Iberians and their culture had simply disappeared because of the PARTIAL (not even total, have you ever heard about Mozarabs?) Islamicization of the region, then I presume that Scandinavia has no links at all to the Viking Era, and Italians are fundamentally different from those pagan Italians with their strange religion and morals, right? Oh, my, how much people can strive to not accept their roots just because of biases that they probably aren't even able to recognize in themselves now!





Oh, of course, you modern Andalusians have nothing to do with those ancient people and culture of Al-Andalus... except, of course, the very name of the region, the very name of a large (perhaps even the majority) of toponyms in the region, the very ancient architecture that drives millions of tourists to visit Andalusia every year, a large part of the PEOPLE's ancestors themselves, who simply switched from Christianity to Islam and again to Christianity between the 8th and the 16th centuries, and so on. Oh, yes, almost nothing in common, modern Andalusia is nothing but a bunch of Asturians, Basques and Castillians living over the totally depopulated and forgotten ruins of Al-Andalus. Yeah, right. lol

(FWIW, you should by know now that many then novel agricultural techniques that allowed Iberia to flourish in the medieval era were brought by those Arabs and Berbers that you want nothing to do with.)


Why do you think you should deny historic and ancestral ties that are just unquestionably obvious if not due to ethnic and religious prejudice? Please let us understand what drives your aim here.





Yeah, just like there are millions of Britons "of parentsm grandparents, great-grandparents, great-great-grandparents, and trastaruabuelos". That still won't erase the fact that their ethnicity and their national culture was deeply influenced by Celts that already lived in Britain since Antiquity, Germanic migrants that came from what is now Netherlands, Northern Germany and Denmark, and Norman and French people throughout the Middle Ages (especially on a cultural level).


I find it so funny that you guys really think we can't notice the fact that European influences are easily accepted when discussing cultural and genetic changes, but the very moment a North African or Levantine influence is even suggested there comes the splitting of hairs and the nitpicking to deny or diminish it as much as one can possibly get. But of course that has nothing to do with some xenophobia or racism, oh, no, not at all, it's just a "misrepresentation" and "misinterpretation". Perhaps those who also identify with that kind of attitude can pretend they find that explanation convincing.


To begin with, Spain is in Europe, it is not surprising that we feel more empathy with the countries of the continent to which we belong and with which we have always related.

And for everything else I don't have to prove anything to you.


He has had the privilege of knowing first hand as a Spanish citizen how it is, how we see it and how we feel it.


The rest of lucubrations, imaginations or how you would like the thing to be is your problem.

For us, Al Andalus does not have continuity with modern Spain, the Reconquest, expulsions, repopulation does.


Dead and buried

Gap, pit, parenthesis, problem solved, the end.


That's right, accept it, what other interest can you have that is as it is not.

The first time in the history of humanity that it is intended to give the victors the identity of the defeated and expelled.

What should be studied and investigated when or how this confusion is created abroad and what is worse still that lasts to this day.

ratchet_fan
04-07-20, 22:07
Can I ask what would have caused those texts to be lost in the first place had it not been for Arabs?

Palermo Trapani
04-07-20, 22:19
To begin with, Spain is in Europe, it is not surprising that we feel more empathy with the countries of the continent to which we belong and with which we have always related.

And for everything else I don't have to prove anything to you.


He has had the privilege of knowing first hand as a Spanish citizen how it is, how we see it and how we feel it.


The rest of lucubrations, imaginations or how you would like the thing to be is your problem.

For us, Al Andalus does not have continuity with modern Spain, the Reconquest, expulsions, repopulation does.


Dead and buried

Gap, pit, parenthesis, problem solved, the end.


That's right, accept it, what other interest can you have that is as it is not.

The first time in the history of humanity that it is intended to give the victors the identity of the defeated and expelled.

What should be studied and investigated when or how this confusion is created abroad and what is worse still that lasts to this day.

Carlos: My opinion, very well said. I have my theories on why what is going on as it relates to your last sentence. I will use an example that I think Will make my point. When Notre Dame in Paris burned, there was a segment in France with allies in other lets say very Pro EU sectors that Notre Dame should not be rebuilt as it was because of where it is in Paris it should not reflect the culture and theology and beliefs of the people who built it. It should be built or rebuilt to reflect modern "secular France" monument to the multitude of modern beliefs, or lack thereof, in today's France. Modern Secular France does not want it to be rebuilt to reflect the past of France when it was recognized throughout Europe as the eldest daughter of the Church. They want it to reflect the eldest daughter of the modernist secularist neo-marxist state.

From my perspective, rebuild it to reflect the culture of what inspired it, medieval Catholic Christendom. It would rather see it burn to the ground to cave in to the militant modern European Secularist. In summary, the reason they don't want to rebuild it because it is a visible reminder of a past in France that does not reflect there modern world view. Yes, men and women had flaws then, as now, but the belief system of what inspired it was the Catholic Faith, not Marxist-deconstructionist Bull Sh.....

So that is my opinion on the subject, just that, not a dogmatic statement of fact.

Deird
04-07-20, 22:29
What's the evidence for that?

Yes, indeed, this is the crux !

Ygorcs
04-07-20, 22:54
As the Umayyad Caliphate expanded further South and started caravans with kingdoms in SSA around 1,000 AD, they acquired more slaves from that part of the world and you see that show up in the data in the period 1000-1600 AD.

The Ummayads fell in 750 A.D., so they couldn't have been the ones expanding towards SSA kingdoms and tribes around 1000 A.D. Who did that were rather the already split successors of the once unified Islamic Empire: the Abbasids, the several dynasties of North Africa, etc.

Not just slaves, though. The Afro-Centrists claims are ridiculously over the top, but I think they have just one rightful demand: that mainstream science really needs to start talking about SSA without the exclusive assumption that all that matters is the slave trade, and rarely if ever do we hear any talk about facts involving the contacts between SSA and other regions except if they revolve around the topic of slave trade. It's like they had no history but the slave trade.

There were certainly many mostly or partly SSA people in the army hosts and political elites of some Arabo-Berber Muslim dynasties, especially the Almoravids, who I think have the best claim as those who brought slightly more SSA influence onto the Northern Maghreb and Iberia, because the origins of the Almoravids are in what is now southern Mauritania. That said, many of those people could've been just Saharawis, who, though of course much darker-skinned than average Iberians, are Berbers with a very different mostly non-SSA origin.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Almoravid_Empire.png

Deird
04-07-20, 22:58
When the Muslims conquered former Christian lands in former Eastern Roman empire, they did translate all the Greek texts into Arabic, that is true. As Western Christendom was cut off from the actual Greek texts held in Monastaries, Chruches in the East, Medieval and renaissance Catholics (Western Church) generally only had access to the Arabic translations as they reconquered lands that were invaded by Muslims.

No, entirely false.
Most of the translations into Arabic were made by Christians, usually Greek or Syriac Christians.
Besides, many texts were still existing in monasteries in France for example in Mont-St-Michel.
It's a proven fact that Medieval Western Catholicism never lost knowledge of all these texts and certainly does not "need" Arabic translations. That BS about Arabic transmission amounts to rewriting history.



So I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the narrative that the the Medieval Europeans only rediscovered ancient knowledge because the Arabs preserved it. A few examples we have of preservation of early manuscripts and Christendom to make my point.

yes, fully agreed !


Since Greek was the lingua franca in many parts of the Eastern Roman empire and it was the Liturgical language of the Church there, Arabs would have been conversant in Greek and thus able to translate those ancient Greek texts from the primary Eastern Christian Greek sources and bring them with them as they expanded West. That is true.

No, that was the Greek and Syriac Christians who did most of the translations.
Muslim Arabs did not contribute anything in this process of translation.

Ygorcs
04-07-20, 22:59
Yes, of course, that's why they immediately gutted down into ashes Alexandria's library, right upon arriving in Egypt. :good_job::good_job:

Do you still believe that pseudo-scientific myth debunken long ago? There was no glori Alexandria library by the time of Christan Egypt, let alone by the time of the Muslim invasion. The great library everyone talks about was probably destroyed by the time of Julius Caesar, either due to violent conquest or an accidental fire. It survived but in an increasingly decadent form due to pure and simple lack of interest. Culture and intellectual priorities were shifting in Late Antiquity, states were becoming much more pressed by economic and military shortcomings. I know, the truth is so much less dramatic and interesting than the pseudo-historic myths that somehow fit the preconceived agendas of people who wish to believe in them, but it is what it is.

The latter versions of it were much smaller in scale, an imperial repression of Egyptian rebels may have destroyed whatever remained of it, and by the time of Christian Egypt it was basically only the so-called "Serapeum", which collected part of the collection of the earlier library alongside a pagan temple. Christians might have plundered and partly destroyed the temple, but it's not conclusively known if they also targeted the library within it or even if there were still books in it. Maybe it was all taken out before the pagan temple was closed off. By the time of the Muslim invasion nothing that could even be compared to the great library of "popular history" was still on.

What kind of books have you been reading? From this comment of yours I'm sure Angela has been reading better ones. Ironically, if someone was really responsible for the sad end of the library of Alexandria, it seems the blame should be placed on the Romans who ruled Egypt for centuries and apparently didn't care much for it.

Ygorcs
04-07-20, 23:28
To begin with, Spain is in Europe, it is not surprising that we feel more empathy with the countries of the continent to which we belong and with which we have always related.

And for everything else I don't have to prove anything to you.


He has had the privilege of knowing first hand as a Spanish citizen how it is, how we see it and how we feel it.


The rest of lucubrations, imaginations or how you would like the thing to be is your problem.

For us, Al Andalus does not have continuity with modern Spain, the Reconquest, expulsions, repopulation does.


Dead and buried

Gap, pit, parenthesis, problem solved, the end.


That's right, accept it, what other interest can you have that is as it is not.

The first time in the history of humanity that it is intended to give the victors the identity of the defeated and expelled.

What should be studied and investigated when or how this confusion is created abroad and what is worse still that lasts to this day.

For me there is a lot that can be said about you and the education you've been given in the fact that it is clear from your writing that you think the "Europeanness" and the "national identity" of Spaniards and Andalusian Spaniards in particular are totally at stake and under risk of being erased if Al-Andalus is accepted as an integral part of their history and as a historic period in which a large part of their ancestors lived (therefore it is part of the nation's history). Is Limpieza de sangre still that popular? I wasn't aware of it, but it seems so when you consider that getting rid of those Muslims (in their majority Muslim Iberians, should I add), and not just of the Muslim-ruled states known as Al-Andalus, was "problem solved" when expulsions and repopulation were enacted. Really nice point of view, but it's particularly interesting coming from someone who the other day was willing to accept some absurd imaginary connection between the Iberian language and Altaic peoples, but is not willing to concede that people who lived in his own country less than 1000 years ago are in any way ancestral to the modern population living in it. Bizarre, but interesting.

No, man, you may rest assured: some drops of blood from people who were once Berbers and Arabs won't make you and your people any less European, and surprisingly people can change to some religion and then change again to some other religion, that won't completely change their genes nor even their culture, and believe it or not the large majority of those Muslims of Al-Andalus that you feel modern Andalusians have nothing to do with were in fact Iberians with a largely Iberian culture and genetic makeup, just like we know now that Levantines didn't suddenly become Arabian because they switched from Eastern Christianity to Islam (and, of course, we also know that in Iberia just like in the Levant a relevant part of the population remained Christian even after centuries of Muslim rule).

This has nothing to do with "identity" or your cherished "European access entry". You're the one mixing modern topics like national identity with long gone historic events. This is actually about history and genetics. Sorry, but one day or another you will simply have to come to grips with the overwhelming evidence that the expulsions and repopulation that you brag so proudly about it to "solve the problem" of Al-Andalus was actually a much more gradual, slow and nuanced affair and involved a lot less expulsion and depopulation than you would like to sever the ties with that dreaded Muslim past once and for good.

Deird
04-07-20, 23:33
Do you still believe that pseudo-scientific myth debunken long ago? There was no glori Alexandria library by the time of Christan Egypt, let alone by the time of the Muslim invasion. The great library everyone talks about was probably destroyed by the time of Julius Caesar, either due to violent conquest or an accidental fire. It survived but in an increasingly decadent form due to pure and simple lack of interest.

The latter versions of it were much smaller in scale, an imperial repression of Egyptian rebels may have destroyed whatever remained of it, and by the time of Christian Egypt it was basically only the so-called "Serapeum", which collected part of the collection of the earlier library alongside a pagan temple. Christians might have plundered and partly destroyed the temple, but it's not conclusively known if they also targeted the library within it or even if there were still books in it. Maybe it was all taken out before the pagan temple was closed off. By the time of the Muslim invasion nothing that could even be compared to the great library of "popular history" was still on.

then, why did Muslims brag about having burned this library, which, according to them, contained nothing of any value, as everything is already in the Qur'an?
Your theory is that there was no library to burn and brag about !?

Carlos
05-07-20, 00:08
For me there is a lot that can be said about you and the education you've been given in the fact that it is clear from your writing that you think the "Europeanness" and the "national identity" of Spaniards and Andalusian Spaniards in particular are totally at stake and under risk of being erased if Al-Andalus is accepted as an integral part of their history and as a historic period in which a large part of their ancestors lived (therefore it is part of the nation's history). Is Limpieza de sangre still that popular? I wasn't aware of it, but it seems so when you consider that getting rid of those Muslims (in their majority Muslim Iberians, should I add), and not just of the Muslim-ruled states known as Al-Andalus, was "problem solved" when expulsions and repopulation were enacted. Really nice point of view, but it's particularly interesting coming from someone who the other day was willing to accept some absurd imaginary connection between the Iberian language and Altaic peoples, but is not willing to concede that people who lived in his own country less than 1000 years ago are in any way ancestral to the modern population living in it. Bizarre, but interesting.

No, man, you may rest assured: some drops of blood from people who were once Berbers and Arabs won't make you and your people any less European, and surprisingly people can change to some religion and then change again to some other religion, that won't completely change their genes nor even their culture, and believe it or not the large majority of those Muslims of Al-Andalus that you feel modern Andalusians have nothing to do with were in fact Iberians with a largely Iberian culture and genetic makeup, just like we know now that Levantines didn't suddenly become Arabian because they switched from Eastern Christianity to Islam (and, of course, we also know that in Iberia just like in the Levant a relevant part of the population remained Christian even after centuries of Muslim rule).

This has nothing to do with "identity" or your cherished "European access entry". You're the one mixing modern topics like national identity with long gone historic events. This is actually about history and genetics. Sorry, but one day or another you will simply have to come to grips with the overwhelming evidence that the expulsions and repopulation that you brag so proudly about it to "solve the problem" of Al-Andalus was actually a much more gradual, slow and nuanced affair and involved a lot less expulsion and depopulation than you would like to sever the ties with that dreaded Muslim past once and for good.

Writing to foreign affairs to see what is failing in relations with Brazil, this cannot be real.


I have been truly surprised that Brazilians know so little about us or draw so many prejudices and misinterpretations about us.


I do not boast of anything, it is the testimony of a native, was he ever that lucky?


The Iberian and Altai thing is not mine, I moved it here to see the opinions.


I did not think that in Brazil they knew us so little or that they saw us with such a biased and strange lens, I do not recognize myself in their words which indicates that they do not know me either.

real expert
05-07-20, 00:21
^^Read the freaking article...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe

There are also entire books on it. For goodness sakes' where do you people get your information?

Yes, the Byzantines had them first, but in case you forgot, the Muslims took over the Byzantine Empire and then custody of those manuscripts.

Stop trying to write them and their accomplishments out of history because you don't like them.

You're going to join Deird if you're not careful. There's no place for Nordicist BS here.



Don't forget Angela, without the Church and the Christian scholars that were often monks, priests the Islamic scholars wouldn't have access to this knowledge of the Classic Greeks and Romans, in the first place. Christian scholars were copying, translating and archiving the ancient knowledge of the Greeks long after the Muslims were ruling and dominating. Keep in mind that anything but Nordicism is being pushed in the academic world that is full of left leaning people who fall over themselves to counter Eurocentrism and white supremacy. Hence, I do think that you heavily overestimate the influence of Nordicism.

It appears to me that you are not aware of the Crusade against European history and heritage that is going on for decades now. Christianity, the Christian heritage and identity of Europe are under massive attack in the West and not Islam and its achievements which are protected by the PC brigades, diversity- police and the liberal intellectual elite. Again the PC brigades, SJWs, the woke elitists and liberals have declared their HOLY WAR on Christian Europe.


We see in front of our eyes history being erased, cultural vandalism taking place, statues being torn down, Christian sacred art being desecrated and defiled by a ruthless mob, all that in the name of diversity, inclusion, respect for other cultures, tolerance and wokeness. In Western schools, documentaries you hear a lot about the Golden Age of Islam while almost nothing about the Christian Byzantine Empire that paved the way for the Golden Age of Islam and played a major role for the emergence of the Renaissance. Yet modern anti- christian scholars rather give credit exclusively to Muslims for the preservation of the so-called lost knowledge and science of ancient Greek philosophers while ignoring Christian Byzantine refugees who brought their knowledge, manuscripts, the Greek language with them to Venice and Florence and helped to start the Renaissance. In all respect Angela, claiming that not Muslims but Christian scholars preserved the Greco-Roman heritage has nothing to do with Nordicism in any form, shape or fashion, it's just a mere fact. The Muslim invaders didn't destroy the hard work of the Christians of mainting the Greco-Roman legacy for centuries, for that you can be grateful, yes. That being said look at the Muslim Turks and their erasure of the rich heritage of the Byzantine Empire.

real expert
05-07-20, 00:34
Let me make one​ thing clear the Arabs or North African Moors , etc. had their own achievements in culture, architecture, science and cuisine. Furthermore, Muslim Moors had a great impact on Southern Europe but in the rest of Europe not so much. However, the contribution of the Muslim scholars concerning the classical work of Aristotle was their excellent commentaries on the difficult work of Aristotle. They made his philosophy and ideas more understandable. Therefore they helped scholars in exploiting them. Having said that Christian Byzantine refugees and scholars who fled to Venice and Florence after the Turks sacked Constantinople, brought the so-called lost work oft he ancient Greeks to the West, to Venice and Florence. The played a bigger role than the Muslim in introducing this forgotten or missing knowledge to Western scholars.


We should be grateful to the Church and their monks who worked their asses and backs off to copy all these classic literatures and libraries. I have seen documentaries about the Golden Age of Islam where Christian Europe was portrayed as dark, dirty, backwards and inferior. In these documentaries they showed two contrasts on one side there were monks living in somber monasteries in Europe that lacked the shining light of the enlightenment of the wonderful Islamic world. Till today is fashionable to teach the myth about the Church being anti-science and to refer to the Medieval times as the Dark Ages. The contributions of the Catholic Church, the Byzantine people and Protestants in art and science like any Christian contributions that made Europe great are being written off from history. Just saying.

ratchet_fan
05-07-20, 01:20
The Ummayads fell in 750 A.D., so they couldn't have been the ones expanding towards SSA kingdoms and tribes around 1000 A.D. Who did that were rather the already split successors of the once unified Islamic Empire: the Abbasids, the several dynasties of North Africa, etc.

Not just slaves, though. The Afro-Centrists claims are ridiculously over the top, but I think they have just one rightful demand: that mainstream science really needs to start talking about SSA without the exclusive assumption that all that matters is the slave trade, and rarely if ever do we hear any talk about facts involving the contacts between SSA and other regions except if they revolve around the topic of slave trade. It's like they had no history but the slave trade.

There were certainly many mostly or partly SSA people in the army hosts and political elites of some Arabo-Berber Muslim dynasties, especially the Almoravids, who I think have the best claim as those who brought slightly more SSA influence onto the Northern Maghreb and Iberia, because the origins of the Almoravids are in what is now southern Mauritania. That said, many of those people could've been just Saharawis, who, though of course much darker-skinned than average Iberians, are Berbers with a very different mostly non-SSA origin.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Almoravid_Empire.png

Well then they should focus on their history and stop trying to claim Egyptian and Moorish history. Or stop coming up with over the top claims of connection to Rome or even more funny Vikings. I'm sure SSA has its own history but they don't seem to care because they keep on trying to steal Eurasian history.

SSA people among the Moors would have been a minority. Nobody can argue against that. And even the more exotic elements among them like you said could have been Saharawis or Saharawi like. And there's no evidence that they were the ones contributing to the culture. The cultural influences were Berber and Levantine (if indeed the pointed arch is an influence).

Palermo Trapani
05-07-20, 01:22
The Ummayads fell in North Africa in terms of their capital, but they were the ones ruling in Spain till 1050. The Abbasids never ruled that far, their territory extended as far as Tunisia, they were always based in the Levant, either Demascus or Baghdad, which they built. It was the Ummayads who ruled from Persia, Turkey all the way to the Maghreb and Spain, but only till 750 AD as you noted. It was a Berber revolt that formed the Baghawata Confederation that rained from 750 till 11th century in what used to by Ummayad Caliphate North Africa. Social Structure in both Ummayad and Abbasid Caliphates Social structure always had Arab-Muslims as 1, 2) Non Arab Muslims, 3) Dhimmis and then slaves. The Berbers got tired of being sent to get killed in the front line troops and rebelled against the Arabs. So not directly the Ummayads but they took over and they did have contacts further South or in the case you have above, trade routes from the South linked up with NW Africa.

I agree Southern Mauritania which stretches down into were West African countries like Senegal are, and Mali borders it as well at its furthest point South. Slavery in Africa is hard to pen down but it might have been Arab-Muslims moved further South along the Nile into East Africa much sooner than further West.

The issue of the Arab-Muslim slave trade is one that has only gotten attention really in the last 20 years. Here is an article from an independent Black Newspaper that puts the number of Black Slaves taken at 10 to 20 million

https://atlantablackstar.com/2014/06/02/10-facts-about-the-arab-enslavement-of-black-people-not-taught-in-schools/

New York Times book review of the Arab-Muslim slave trade, estimates are in line with what was reported in the article in the paper above, citing the work of Dr John Azumah and 2001 book.

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/01/03/04/reviews/010304.04hochsct.html

Both works point out the slave ratio was always heavily female, the men were castrated and served as guards of the Muslim elite and their property, concubines, etc and sent off to fight as well.

Off the top of my head, all the of DNA studies on modern North African DNA when analyzing increase in SSA admixture have always, always, documented that it is female mtdna dominated, which is consistent with what we know about the Arab-Muslim slave trade of Black SSA people. On the other hand, I think the evidence of the European Transatlantic slave trade is just the opposite, it was more Male dominated given the terrible conditions of being sent on ship across the ocean, it was more likely Men would survive. I don't have a cite on that but that is from memory based on historian articles on the European Transatlantic slave trade.

ratchet_fan
05-07-20, 01:23
For me there is a lot that can be said about you and the education you've been given in the fact that it is clear from your writing that you think the "Europeanness" and the "national identity" of Spaniards and Andalusian Spaniards in particular are totally at stake and under risk of being erased if Al-Andalus is accepted as an integral part of their history and as a historic period in which a large part of their ancestors lived (therefore it is part of the nation's history). Is Limpieza de sangre still that popular? I wasn't aware of it, but it seems so when you consider that getting rid of those Muslims (in their majority Muslim Iberians, should I add), and not just of the Muslim-ruled states known as Al-Andalus, was "problem solved" when expulsions and repopulation were enacted. Really nice point of view, but it's particularly interesting coming from someone who the other day was willing to accept some absurd imaginary connection between the Iberian language and Altaic peoples, but is not willing to concede that people who lived in his own country less than 1000 years ago are in any way ancestral to the modern population living in it. Bizarre, but interesting.

No, man, you may rest assured: some drops of blood from people who were once Berbers and Arabs won't make you and your people any less European, and surprisingly people can change to some religion and then change again to some other religion, that won't completely change their genes nor even their culture, and believe it or not the large majority of those Muslims of Al-Andalus that you feel modern Andalusians have nothing to do with were in fact Iberians with a largely Iberian culture and genetic makeup, just like we know now that Levantines didn't suddenly become Arabian because they switched from Eastern Christianity to Islam (and, of course, we also know that in Iberia just like in the Levant a relevant part of the population remained Christian even after centuries of Muslim rule).

This has nothing to do with "identity" or your cherished "European access entry". You're the one mixing modern topics like national identity with long gone historic events. This is actually about history and genetics. Sorry, but one day or another you will simply have to come to grips with the overwhelming evidence that the expulsions and repopulation that you brag so proudly about it to "solve the problem" of Al-Andalus was actually a much more gradual, slow and nuanced affair and involved a lot less expulsion and depopulation than you would like to sever the ties with that dreaded Muslim past once and for good.

Right. The culture was still mostly the product of Europeans (albeit with Berber and Arab influences). Berber and Arab culture has European influence too. People usually influence their neighbors.

Ygorcs
05-07-20, 01:46
Writing to foreign affairs to see what is failing in relations with Brazil, this cannot be real.


I have been truly surprised that Brazilians know so little about us or draw so many prejudices and misinterpretations about us.


I do not boast of anything, it is the testimony of a native, was he ever that lucky?


The Iberian and Altai thing is not mine, I moved it here to see the opinions.


I did not think that in Brazil they knew us so little or that they saw us with such a biased and strange lens, I do not recognize myself in their words which indicates that they do not know me either.

Your English is very convoluted and sometimes hardly coherent to say the least, but if I get what you're saying correctly I really hope you only write ANY WORD in this forum if it is exclusively about Spain and more specifically even about Andalusia, otherwise you'll be viewed as nothing but a hypocrite.

As for how much Brazilians know or do not know about Spain and Spaniards, sorry, but unlike you I sustain no idea that I as an individual am totally representative of the entire people that live in my country, let alone do I pretend I am an authority in the history of my country just because I was born in it.

Besides, you may have some point indeed about Brazil and Brazilians.

Most people here aren't fond of 19th century pseudo-historic national myths created to derive some "pure origin" for their own nation and to differentiate themselves from other populations, thus strengthening the national sentiments promoted by states at that time. Most people here are long past those long debunken and almost always very simplistic legends, and most wouldn't identify as "prejudices" a link between present Iberians and once Muslim Iberians as well as descendants of Berber and Arabo-Berber immigrants dozens of generations ago. That's simply not seen as something to be avoided or hidden, so there cold be no discrimination in saying such a thing when there are evidences of that. At worst it would simply be an incorrect statement, but a prejudiced one? No, why should it be viewed as such? Perhaps in the minds of those who actually​ are prejudiced.

That's perhaps because the history of our formation as a distinct people is too recent, so we do know how peoples are usually formed: it's a messy, complicated process, and lots of mixing and reciprocal influences are involved in it. So, yes, you'll hardly find Brazilians who agrees with you that modern Andalusians and Spaniars at large and Al-Andalus are totally unrelated genetically, historically, linguistically and culturally, because, sorry, the evidences of partial continuity and ancestral relationship are just too obvious and too numerous for anyone who is not personally and emotionally invested in denying that for some bizarre reason that probably has to with those fragile nationalist feelings. It must feel really weird when you feel you have to pretend hundreds of years of your country and your ancestors did not exist (or even that they were not your and your people's ancestors at all) to keep your identity unscathed.

I won't keep this discussion anymore. I think everyone who might form an opinions of his or her own about what's happened here already did so. Nothing more is needed. Enjoy your weekend!

Palermo Trapani
05-07-20, 01:50
No, entirely false.
Most of the translations into Arabic were made by Christians, usually Greek or Syriac Christians.
Besides, many texts were still existing in monasteries in France for example in Mont-St-Michel.
It's a proven fact that Medieval Western Catholicism never lost knowledge of all these texts and certainly does not "need" Arabic translations. That BS about Arabic transmission amounts to rewriting history.




yes, fully agreed !



No, that was the Greek and Syriac Christians who did most of the translations.
Muslim Arabs did not contribute anything in this process of translation.


Deird, those early translations from Greek into "Arab" you sure they were in Arab or other languages. The Levant and areas where Eastern Christendom was strong did not speak Arab, Arab itself developed in Arabia by 4th century and began to spread with the 7th century spread of Islam. I am pretty well versed in the Early Church Fathers and all the extant text are usually in Latin, Greek, Syriac, sometimes Armenian and any other writings from antiquity are in the those languages. However, by the 8th/9th centuries as former Christian Eastern Roman lands were conquered, there was an introduction of Arabic into the Liturgies of the Eastern Churches, so you might be on to something, those Eastern Theologies and Monastaries did start translating there theological, Liturgical and other texts into Arabic.

The Maronite Eastern Church, in Communion with Rome, uses Aramaic (Syriac language), the language Christ spoke, in its Liturgy, the original language spoken their but they later added Liturgical Arabic as well. Probably should have gone back and reviewed the Patristic period of the Early Church, it does seem the Greek and Syriacs in the East did do lots of the translations. After further review, it was the Abbasid's in Baghdad that set up the Al-ma mum school to translate all the ancient Texts of Byzantium and is this area there were 2 groups, the Nestorians (Nestorian doctrine rejected at the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD) and Monophysites (Doctrine rejected at the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD) and both of these groups were once part of the fuller Church and thus both groups had scholars who had translated all the Greek text into Syriac and the Abbasids employed monks from these 2 groups to translate. There is some evidence that Muhammad himself was influenced by Nestorian Christianity.

But I think these works from the East by the medieval period would have been lost to Western Europe, by 1054 Rome and Constantinople were in schism and contact between the 2 would really become non-existant for the most part. As these translated works in Arabic made there way West with the Muslim expansion, say into Iberia, these texts were brought closer to Western Europe and when lands came back in control of Europeans, these Arabic translations were close by.

Still your central point is correct, it was Greek and Syriac speaking Monks who translated the works into Arabic for the Muslim rulers, etc. Not sure how good an article this is, but a quick read of it supports your basic point. It notes by 1,000 AD, the Muslim Caliphates for the most part were no longer interested in translations of any ancient Greek texts, etc. So there you go.

https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/greek-texts-are-translated-arabic

Ygorcs
05-07-20, 01:56
then, why did Muslims brag about having burned this library, which, according to them, contained nothing of any value, as everything is already in the Qur'an?
Your theory is that there was no library to burn and brag about !?

That's nothing but a long debunken and contradictory story based on hearsay written by Gregory bar Hebraeus. He got it so wrong that he mentioned people whose lifetime were decades apart from each other. There were certainly libraries in Alexandria when Muslims conquered it, but "the" Library of Alexandria was gone since centuries before, and that's particularly true if we consider as "the" famous library the huge collection that had once existed, not the spin-off of it that was nothing but an annex of the Serapeum. Go and read about the history of the library of Alexandria. You'll be surprised at how many myths and rumors have been created around it.

Btw It's not MY theory. It is what most modern historians consider is true. But you may cling to outdated and long debunken sources, because usually what they say sounds much more exciting - and, fittingly, they tend to confirm one's own biases.

Carlos
05-07-20, 02:29
[Ygorcs;607395]Your English is very convoluted and sometimes hardly coherent to say the least, but if I get what you're saying correctly I really hope you only write ANY WORD in this forum if it is exclusively about Spain and more specifically even about Andalusia, otherwise you'll be viewed as nothing but a hypocrite.

No comment

As for how much Brazilians know or do not know about Spain and Spaniards, sorry, but unlike you I sustain no idea that I as an individual am totally representative of the entire people that live in my country, let alone do I pretend I am an authority in the history of my country just because I was born in it.

I don't know what you're talking about

Besides, you may have some point indeed about Brazil and Brazilians.

Most people here aren't fond of 19th century pseudo-historic national myths created to derive some "pure origin" for their own nation and to differentiate themselves from other populations, thus strengthening the national sentiments promoted by states at that time. Most people here are long past those long debunken and almost always very simplistic legends, and most wouldn't identify as "prejudices" a link between present Iberians and once Muslim Iberians as well as descendants of Berber and Arabo-Berber immigrants dozens of generations ago. That's simply not seen as something to be avoided or hidden, so there cold be no discrimination in saying such a thing when there are evidences of that. At worst it would simply be an incorrect statement, but a prejudiced one? No, why should it be viewed as such? Perhaps in the minds of those who actually​ are prejudiced.


No one hides the story. You can learn wikipedia by heart and then recite it to the last comma. We do have links with the Middle Ages: The Reconquest.

I have already commented on it in another thread: It would be the first time in the history of humanity that it is intended to give the victors the identity of the defeated and expelled.

That's perhaps because the history of our formation as a distinct people is too recent, so we do know how peoples are usually formed: it's a messy, complicated process, and lots of mixing and reciprocal influences are involved in it. So, yes, you'll hardly find Brazilians who agrees with you that modern Andalusians and Spaniars at large and Al-Andalus are totally unrelated genetically, historically, linguistically and culturally, because, sorry, the evidences of partial continuity and ancestral relationship are just too obvious and too numerous for anyone who is not personally and emotionally invested in denying that for some bizarre reason that probably has to with those fragile nationalist feelings. It must feel really weird when you feel you have to pretend hundreds of years of your country and your ancestors did not exist (or even that they were not your and your people's ancestors at all) to keep your identity unscathed.

It seems that he does not want to understand that Al Andalus and Andalusia are different things.

I won't keep this discussion anymore. I think everyone who might form an opinions of his or her own about what's happened here already did so. Nothing more is needed. Enjoy your weekend!

He wants to force a situation for a modern people, which is not his sentiment, but a period that happened on his soil and which came with foreigners and left with them. Any influence is adapted and made ours to the character ours of people of the Middle Ages with a system and culture with which there is no continuity. To pretend otherwise is to lie.

Duarte
05-07-20, 02:57
Yes, with this we have already finished our little discussion.


I do not understand too well their mentality regarding what I would or would not look like here or there. In this respect, he does seem to speak for many.


I feel that all his theory, data, speculations lose all meaning simply with the testimony of a native, reality always surpasses fantasy.


Think about it when you speak to a native about a subject where you had thrown your expectations based on the theoretical, data, history e.t.c. there is something that will escape you but that I have written in the genes, for that reason my advice is to listen to the opinion of the actor, not the interpreter, which would be his role in this case.

I think I have been very restrained and educated since in this matter it is very easy for a Spaniard to lose his nerve completely.

Regards

My regards to you, native (Of modern Andalusia). :grin:
Have a nice night also.
See you later
Cheers ;)

Angela
05-07-20, 03:38
Yes, it is difficult to understand, because the very term ANCESTRY and HERITAGE (whether genetic, cultural, or both) necessarily implies people that only exist now in history books, they're long dead, but they influence later generations on a more obvious or deeper level. By your token, since Germanic tribes and the medieval Germanic kingdoms only exist in history books, then modern Germans and Scandinavians have absolutely no link at all with those ancient populations. And of course they have no continuity at all with the Germanic peoples before their shift to Christianity, right?


If, according to you Al-Andalus was completely different because it belonged to the "Islamic culture", as if Iberians and their culture had simply disappeared because of the PARTIAL (not even total, have you ever heard about Mozarabs?) Islamicization of the region, then I presume that Scandinavia has no links at all to the Viking Era, and Italians are fundamentally different from those pagan Italians with their strange religion and morals, right? Oh, my, how much people can strive to not accept their roots just because of biases that they probably aren't even able to recognize in themselves now!





Oh, of course, you modern Andalusians have nothing to do with those ancient people and culture of Al-Andalus... except, of course, the very name of the region, the very name of a large (perhaps even the majority) of toponyms in the region, the very ancient architecture that drives millions of tourists to visit Andalusia every year, a large part of the PEOPLE's ancestors themselves, who simply switched from Christianity to Islam and again to Christianity between the 8th and the 16th centuries, and so on. Oh, yes, almost nothing in common, modern Andalusia is nothing but a bunch of Asturians, Basques and Castillians living over the totally depopulated and forgotten ruins of Al-Andalus, building a society that had absolutely no link with the previous inhabitants of the land. And, of course, millions of people were expelled from Al-Andalus even if the truth is that that expulsion only happened when when all that remained of Al-Andalus was the tiny emirate of Granada, and most Andalusi people had long been under Christian rule and once again Christianized. Yeah, right. lol

(FWIW, you should by know now that many then novel agricultural techniques that allowed Iberia to flourish in the medieval era were brought by those Arabs and Berbers that you want nothing to do with.)


Why do you think you should deny historic and ancestral ties that are just unquestionably obvious if not due to ethnic and religious prejudice? Please let us understand what drives your aim here.





Yeah, just like there are millions of Britons "of parentsm grandparents, great-grandparents, great-great-grandparents, and trastaruabuelos". That still won't erase the fact that their ethnicity and their national culture was deeply influenced by Celts that already lived in Britain since Antiquity, Germanic migrants that came from what is now Netherlands, Northern Germany and Denmark, and Norman and French people throughout the Middle Ages (especially on a cultural level).


I find it so funny that you guys really think we can't notice the fact that European influences are easily accepted when discussing cultural and genetic changes, but the very moment a North African or Levantine influence is even suggested there comes the splitting of hairs and the nitpicking to deny or diminish it as much as one can possibly get. But of course that has nothing to do with some xenophobia or racism, oh, no, not at all, it's just a "misrepresentation" and "misinterpretation". Perhaps those who also identify with that kind of attitude can pretend they find that explanation convincing.

Very well argued. It won't do any good, though.

Philjames100
05-07-20, 03:59
Here's some info on translations of ancient Greek works (from the original Greek to Latin) made during the Middle Ages, before Byzantine scholars started migrating to the west:


"Henry Aristippus (1105-1162), a prominent Latin cleric and court figure in the kingdom of Sicily during the reign of William I, brought important Greek philosophical and scientific writings into the intellectual orbit of the medieval Latin west. How he acquired his knowledge of Greek is unknown. His translation of Plato’s Meno was finished sometime between early 1154 and 1160. His translation of Plato’s Phaedo was begun in the spring of 1156 while Aristippus, now archdeacon of Catania, was in camp during William’s siege of Benevento. It was completed in Palermo shortly thereafter and later revised. In 1158 Aristippus returned from a diplomatic mission to Constantinople with gifts to the kingdom from the emperor Manuel I Comnenus that included a copy of the Greek text of Ptolemy’s Almagest (which was then translated by an annonymous translator)… Aristippus translated, from the original Greek, Book 4 of Aristotle’s Meteorology… this remained the standard Latin version until it was superseded in the thirteenth century by William of Moerbeke’s new translation of the entire work.”

link (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LSCPAQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA45&ots=-EfQ6QY5hZ&dq=Henry%20Aristippus%2C&pg=PA45#v=onepage&q&f=false)


"Aristippus gives us evidence of the presence in Norman Sicily of important scientific and philosophical texts such as the Mechanics of Hero, the Optics of Euclid, the Posterior Analytics of Aristotle: "In Siciliy you have the library of Syracuse [...] you have access to the Mechanics of Hero, the Optics of Euclid, the Posterior Analytics of Aristotle and other philosophical works”.

link (http://www.scielo.org.mx/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0185-30582009000100006)


“James of Venice (12th century) was a significant translator of Aristotle of the twelfth century. He has been called the first systematic translator of Aristotle since Boethius. Not much is otherwise known about him. He was active in particular in Constantinople; he translated the Posterior Analytics from Greek to Latin in the period 1125–1150.”

link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_of_Venice)


"By 1278 practically the whole of the Aristotelian corpus existed in translations from the Greek, and much of it had a wide circulation. Apart from three other works of logic in translations done by Boethius, which reappeared about 1115, this wholesale discovery was the result of cultural contacts with Constantinople and a few other Greek centres and the personal initiative of a few scholars. Most notable and first of these was James of Venice, who was in Constantinople and translated the Posterior Analytics, Physics, De Anima (On the Soul), Metaphysics, and several minor texts before or about 1150; other scholars translated anew or for the first time works on ethics, natural philosophy, and logic before 1200. With higher standards of linguistic scholarship, Robert Grosseteste, about 1240, revised and completed the translation of the Nicomachean Ethics and translated On the Heavens for the first time from the Greek.

The Flemish translator William of Moerbeke, active between about 1255 and 1278, completed the Latin Aristotelian corpus; he was the first to translate the Politics and Poetics and to give a full and reliable translation of the books on animals; he also translated anew some books of natural philosophy, and he revised several of the older translations.”

link (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Aristotelianism/The-later-Latin-tradition)


“William of Moerbeke (1215–1286), was a prolific medieval translator of philosophical, medical, and scientific texts from Greek language into Latin, enabled by the period of Latin rule of the Byzantine Empire. … he undertook a complete translation of the works of Aristotle directly from the Greek or, for some portions, a revision of existing translations. William of Moerbeke was the first translator of the Politics (c. 1260) into Latin … William also translated mathematical treatises by Hero of Alexandria and Archimedes. Especially important was his translation of the Elements of Theology of Proclus (made in 1268), because the Elements of Theology is one of the fundamental sources of the revived Neo-Platonic philosophical currents of the 13th century. His translation of Proclus' commentary on Plato's Parmenides which included Plato's dialogue up to 142b in Stephanus pagination made this text available in Latin for the first time. Some important shorter texts of Proclus, such as "On Providence," "On providence and Fate," and "On the Existence of Evil," are preserved only in William of Moerbeke's translation.”

link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_Moerbeke)


“William of Moerbeke in 1260 made a literal Latin translation of Aristotle’s On the Heavens and Meteorology. During the next two decades he translated parts of Aristotle’s Metaphysics, Politics, Rhetoric, and History of Animals, together with cognate treatises on animal psychology and physiology, concluding in 1278 with Poetics. He revised existing Latin versions of other Aristotelian writings, including On Memory and Recall, Physics, Posterior Analytics, and possibly the Nichomachean Ethics.”

link (https://www.britannica.com/biography/William-of-Moerbeke)


“William of Moerbeke's translation of Aristotle's Metaphysics, for example, while it may have been the first complete version, was apparently the third Latin translation to be made from the original text. A translation from Greek into Latin (the so-called Metaphysica Vetus) was in use at Paris as early as 1210 … and a second translation from the Greek (the Translatio Media) seems to have been used by Albert the Great as the basis of his commentary. Many other works of Aristotle were similarly available by the middle of the thirteenth century in translations from the Greek as well as from the Arabic. While the extent of his indebtedness to earlier translators has not yet been precisely determined, William is known to have used some of the existing translations from the Greek in his own work.”

link (https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/william-moerbeke-c-1215-c-1286)

Angela
05-07-20, 04:01
Let me make one​ thing clear the Arabs or North African Moors , etc. had their own achievements in culture, architecture, science and cuisine. Furthermore, Muslim Moors had a great impact on Southern Europe but in the rest of Europe not so much. However, the contribution of the Muslim scholars concerning the classical work of Aristotle was their excellent commentaries on the difficult work of Aristotle. They made his philosophy and ideas more understandable. Therefore they helped scholars in exploiting them. Having said that Christian Byzantine refugees and scholars who fled to Venice and Florence after the Turks sacked Constantinople, brought the so-called lost work oft he ancient Greeks to the West, to Venice and Florence. The played a bigger role than the Muslim in introducing this forgotten or missing knowledge to Western scholars.


We should be grateful to the Church and their monks who worked their asses and backs off to copy all these classic literatures and libraries. I have seen documentaries about the Golden Age of Islam where Christian Europe was portrayed as dark, dirty, backwards and inferior. In these documentaries they showed two contrasts on one side there were monks living in somber monasteries in Europe that lacked the shining light of the enlightenment of the wonderful Islamic world. Till today is fashionable to teach the myth about the Church being anti-science and to refer to the Medieval times as the Dark Ages. The contributions of the Catholic Church, the Byzantine people and Protestants in art and science like any Christian contributions that made Europe great are being written off from history. Just saying.


No one could admire the work of Christian monks and scholars of the Middle Ages more than I do, or be more upset about the constant assault on Eastern Christianity in the Middle East. It's a disgrace that no western country seems to give a damn.

That doesn't mean the Muslim scholars, and Jewish ones as well didn't play their part.

Facts are facts. Some of the people posting here have clearly never read scholarly works on the topic in their lives. They're just spouting the racist, bigoted bilge they were taught at school or have read on racist "anthro" sites.

Get out the books of actual scholarship, people.

Angela
05-07-20, 04:45
No one could admire the work of Christian monks and scholars of the Middle Ages more than I do, or be more upset about the constant assault on Eastern Christianity in the Middle East. It's a disgrace that no western country seems to give a damn.

That doesn't mean the Muslim scholars, and Jewish ones as well didn't play their part.

Facts are facts. Some of the people posting here have clearly never read scholarly works on the topic in their lives. They're just spouting the racist, bigoted bilge they were taught at school or have read on racist "anthro" sites.

Get out the books of actual scholarship, people.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/World_History_Volume_I_To_1800/Vc_0CAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Did+Muslims+preserve+and+pass+on+ancient+Greek+ writings&pg=PT236&printsec=frontcover

https://www.mei.edu/publications/islamic-civilization

The kind of stupidity that has been written in this thread is to be expected, I suppose, from people who don't even know who Avicenna and Averroes were, much less Maimonides, or that some Greek texts have survived ONLY in Arabic translation, or that our whole lyric tradition of love poetry comes from the Arab world.

I learned all of that, by the way, from Catholic nuns who, unlike the idiots filling the internet with rubbish, had masters and doctorates in not only theology, but ancient history and Greek and Latin.

https://www.escholar.manchester.ac.uk/api/datastream?publicationPid=uk-ac-man-scw:1m1561&datastreamId=POST-PEER-REVIEW-PUBLISHERS-DOCUMENT.PDF

Duarte
05-07-20, 05:03
Mozarabs


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozarabs

https://i.imgur.com/O3IrWyz.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/AjOMva3.jpg

“Neither good Christians nor loyal subjects.”

https://i.imgur.com/B8FdReC.jpg

Carlos
05-07-20, 14:29
My regards to you, native (Of modern Andalusia). :grin:
Have a nice night also.
See you later
Cheers ;)

As we usually say: Andalusia there is only one


I think you would like what Andalusia does with any historical excuse to do it with the argument of Al Andalus, but I am sorry, it is not so, because whether or not you like that historical moment we do not feel it ours or with continuity.

I think that many of you would have liked or imagined that what other regions do with any historical excuse Andalusia did with the argument of Al Andalus, but I am sorry, it is not so, because whether or not you like that particular historical moment not we do not feel it is ours or with continuity, but rather something that begins and ends giving us something new and totally different.

They have to know the natives better, their concerns, wishes, desires, feelings, opinion.

Theoretical or learning a history book from memory and then replicating it to the last comma is one thing and the reality of peoples is another.

Andalusia loves you. You will find Al Andalus in history books.

I am sorry to have broken the expectations of so many in the disintegration of Spain, but we are not going to imitate other regions.

Because I see no other explanation in forcing something that does not exist on the part of foreigners to whom a native is saying that the thing is not so and they insist on a present-future link with a period that for us is a finalized parenthesis.

There are no problems with the images of monuments in Al Andalus, they do not produce hives, that is not the point either, the rejection of that historical period does not affect the monuments because they are now ours.

(The images by the way are horrible)

Duarte you do not know the Andalusians and Spaniards at all.

Let's imagine that the Franks or Carolingians have made 2 skirmishes in my territory, so I am going to claim to be an independent country? well no, sorry. If the expectations were those in relation to Andalusia with Al Andalus, I'm sorry but no.

Duarte
05-07-20, 16:19
As we usually say: Andalusia there is only one


I think you would like what Andalusia does with any historical excuse to do it with the argument of Al Andalus, but I am sorry, it is not so, because whether or not you like that historical moment we do not feel it ours or with continuity.

I think that many of you would have liked or imagined that what other regions do with any historical excuse Andalusia did with the argument of Al Andalus, but I am sorry, it is not so, because whether or not you like that particular historical moment not we do not feel it is ours or with continuity, but rather something that begins and ends giving us something new and totally different.

They have to know the natives better, their concerns, wishes, desires, feelings, opinion.

Theoretical or learning a history book from memory and then replicating it to the last comma is one thing and the reality of peoples is another.

Andalusia loves you. You will find Al Andalus in history books.

I am sorry to have broken the expectations of so many in the disintegration of Spain, but we are not going to imitate other regions.

Because I see no other explanation in forcing something that does not exist on the part of foreigners to whom a native is saying that the thing is not so and they insist on a present-future link with a period that for us is a finalized parenthesis.

There are no problems with the images of monuments in Al Andalus, they do not produce hives, that is not the point either, the rejection of that historical period does not affect the monuments because they are now ours.

(The images by the way are horrible)

Duarte you do not know the Andalusians and Spaniards at all.

Let's imagine that the Franks or Carolingians have made 2 skirmishes in my territory, so I am going to claim to be an independent country? well no, sorry. If the expectations were those in relation to Andalusia with Al Andalus, I'm sorry but no.

Dear Carlos. I am also a little Andalusian and, greeting you in this moment, I greet all Andalusians in the World. The Andalusian community in Brazil is large and, according to the source below, it appears to be the second largest in the world, being smaller only than that of Andaluzia. Saludos.

https://i.imgur.com/9ZFM1qH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/P6reqU5.jpg
I never looked for my Spanish roots. I am already satisfied with knowing only my Portuguese roots. Joaquim Viegas was the son of Andalusians. He was not a very tall man, but he was a good man who had beautiful blue eyes that gave him the appearance of an angel. Son of impoverished Andalusian emigrants, he made a fortune in the State of Minas Gerais / Brazil and became the patriarch of the Viegas family by marrying Filomela Guerra, a descendant of Portuguese from Trás-os-Montes coming from the border with Galicia. This man and this woman are my maternal great-grandparents. I did not inherit the surnames Viegas and Guerra because in Brazil the children, until the 1960s, inherited only their father's names. Patriarchal tradition. My son was the first of his generation to receive a mother's surname. Following the guidance of the paternal matriarch, my paternal great aunt, he could receive one of his mother's surnames, as long as he kept his father's surname in full (my surname, in this case). My great-aunt was a very wealthy woman and took full command of “the orders of the family” after the death of my paternal grandparents. My father was a proud man, but he was totally submissive to she, a fact that greatly upset my mother, who ended up raising me to be an enemy of the queen. I played this role for a while until I got tired of it and accepted submission (I pretended to accept it. I just wanted the inheritance, lol).

Carlos
05-07-20, 16:43
@Duarte


Cabrón por qué no me habías dicho que eras medio andaluz.




My maternal great-grandmother married the richest man in town, now recently I have learned from family seekers that she met the Spanish nobleman Villalonga who was in the area gathering information with the excuse of writing a book and who finally made a movie based on the life of my great-grandparents, a film from many decades ago that I have not yet been able to locate.


In my maternal family, women are also dominant, but my paternal grandfather was dominant, he was very strict with his children, he had his own farmland, his wife, my paternal grandmother, separated from him in Francoism when it could not be done, perhaps for that reason. my father decided to educate us free like the wind and like the grass that grows only with the sun and rainwater. Once as a child I asked my father what was that tower that was at the top of the mountain and my father answered me: That was what the Moors did when they were here, I answered him and where they are now and he said: we threw them out , I think it was the only time that we could touch in some way and also indirectly the subject of Al Andalus.

--------------------

For everyone in general:

In another vein


Since I see that the testimony of a native is useless, I do not even want to think about the path that interpretations can take when debating other much older times, the Neolithic, the bronze, Yamamama e.t.c.


There is a trick that has just occurred to me in view of the eastern issue of Al Andalus:


All your interpretations of a principle turn completely the opposite and you may find the answers you are looking for.


Good trick, right!

Ygorcs
05-07-20, 19:46
Since I see that the testimony of a native is useless, I do not even want to think about the path that interpretations can take when debating other much older times, the Neolithic, the bronze, Yamamama e.t.c.

Yes, my dear, what else did you think? This is a forum that is supposed to gather people who are interested in science, not in the subjective "testimony" of natives who quite often have an emotional and deeply personal investment on this or that hypothesis about the origins of their people and culture due to interests and premises that are decidedly unscientific, usually learned from myths and interpretations promoted and passed on by earlier generations. Nobody who is born in some land automatically receives all the truth about the history of the place, historical research would be so much easier if that were so. Once again, I stress that what is being discussed here is the history and heritage of a place, not its people's present identity. The testimony of a native doesn't prevail over what historical, genetic and linguistic research show, particularly when it is clearly tainted by nationalist feelings and ethnic pride, which will never conform to truths "inconvenient" to their preferred narrative.

Carlos
06-07-20, 00:56
Ygorcs;607438]Since I see that the testimony of a native is useless, I do not even want to think about the path that interpretations can take when debating other much older times, the Neolithic, the bronze, Yamamama e.t.c.

Yes, my dear, what else did you think? This is a forum that is supposed to gather people who are interested in science, not in the subjective "testimony" of natives who quite often have an emotional and deeply personal investment on this or that hypothesis about the origins of their people and culture due to interests and premises that are decidedly unscientific, usually learned from myths and interpretations promoted and passed on by earlier generations. Nobody who is born in some land automatically receives all the truth about the history of the place, historical research would be so much easier if that were so. Once again, I stress that what is being discussed here is the history and heritage of a place, not its people's present identity. The testimony of a native doesn't prevail over what historical, genetic and linguistic research show, particularly when it is clearly tainted by nationalist feelings and ethnic pride, which will never conform to truths "inconvenient" to their preferred narrative.



https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRaMzrjzXp10kfu0S8jHZLtxMx9QaJ PPZoT1Q&usqp=CAU
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/QGEWnitB9ht_eTfjCWyFQaKz6eCGtCbyJI922vt9i_jYw8X-GPM9E4qhhpNHDKrWKaj4YoRfivGpN4nDR5hYgvek_rUJ6YNUfF R-3BTuUM7AzyEoV_TyDUjaWnM4V0CPrQ

Carlos
08-07-20, 00:14
[Ygorcs;607395]Your English is very convoluted and sometimes hardly coherent to say the least, but if I get what you're saying correctly I really hope you only write ANY WORD in this forum if it is exclusively about Spain and more specifically even about Andalusia, otherwise you'll be viewed as nothing but a hypocrite.

No comment

As for how much Brazilians know or do not know about Spain and Spaniards, sorry, but unlike you I sustain no idea that I as an individual am totally representative of the entire people that live in my country, let alone do I pretend I am an authority in the history of my country just because I was born in it.

I don't know what you're talking about

Besides, you may have some point indeed about Brazil and Brazilians.

Most people here aren't fond of 19th century pseudo-historic national myths created to derive some "pure origin" for their own nation and to differentiate themselves from other populations, thus strengthening the national sentiments promoted by states at that time. Most people here are long past those long debunken and almost always very simplistic legends, and most wouldn't identify as "prejudices" a link between present Iberians and once Muslim Iberians as well as descendants of Berber and Arabo-Berber immigrants dozens of generations ago. That's simply not seen as something to be avoided or hidden, so there cold be no discrimination in saying such a thing when there are evidences of that. At worst it would simply be an incorrect statement, but a prejudiced one? No, why should it be viewed as such? Perhaps in the minds of those who actually​ are prejudiced.


No one hides the story. You can learn wikipedia by heart and then recite it to the last comma. We do have links with the Middle Ages: The Reconquest.

I have already commented on it in another thread: It would be the first time in the history of humanity that it is intended to give the victors the identity of the defeated and expelled.

That's perhaps because the history of our formation as a distinct people is too recent, so we do know how peoples are usually formed: it's a messy, complicated process, and lots of mixing and reciprocal influences are involved in it. So, yes, you'll hardly find Brazilians who agrees with you that modern Andalusians and Spaniars at large and Al-Andalus are totally unrelated genetically, historically, linguistically and culturally, because, sorry, the evidences of partial continuity and ancestral relationship are just too obvious and too numerous for anyone who is not personally and emotionally invested in denying that for some bizarre reason that probably has to with those fragile nationalist feelings. It must feel really weird when you feel you have to pretend hundreds of years of your country and your ancestors did not exist (or even that they were not your and your people's ancestors at all) to keep your identity unscathed.

It seems that he does not want to understand that Al Andalus and Andalusia are different things.

I won't keep this discussion anymore. I think everyone who might form an opinions of his or her own about what's happened here already did so. Nothing more is needed. Enjoy your weekend!

He wants to force a situation for a modern people, which is not his sentiment, but a period that happened on his soil and which came with foreigners and left with them. Any influence is adapted and made ours to the character ours of people of the Middle Ages with a system and culture with which there is no continuity. To pretend otherwise is to lie.



Besides, you may have some point indeed about Brazil and Brazilians.

Here is my point

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZkvUoYaMgVc/XwTyRc28wNI/AAAAAAAAEVU/_1GtvJW7vHcjAvIdv8LE5wvHDSsZtB97QCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/BrazilBot15.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/--Xjfn4PqqF8/XwTyWocf8EI/AAAAAAAAEVY/b-_zarf-rzIBbtzReULmDRvYScAo3UOmACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/BrazilBot17.jpeg

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4370112/

ratchet_fan
08-07-20, 00:19
Besides, you may have some point indeed about Brazil and Brazilians.

Here is my point

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZkvUoYaMgVc/XwTyRc28wNI/AAAAAAAAEVU/_1GtvJW7vHcjAvIdv8LE5wvHDSsZtB97QCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/BrazilBot15.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/--Xjfn4PqqF8/XwTyWocf8EI/AAAAAAAAEVY/b-_zarf-rzIBbtzReULmDRvYScAo3UOmACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/BrazilBot17.jpeg

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4370112/

So your opinion is that European culture is completely indigenous?

Carlos
08-07-20, 00:45
So your opinion is that European culture is completely indigenous?

The culture is made by the peoples and if something works from abroad they make it their own.

It is a very complicated question because if it is answered that it would seem that the contributions of the rest of the world are despised, however, the indigenous people are the ones who make the culture and can also make their own any outside influence, therefore it is always the indigenous people who create their own culture integrating or undoing foreign influences according to whether they are useful or not

The answer is no but yes

Ygorcs
08-07-20, 00:45
So your opinion is that European culture is completely indigenous?

Let it be, ratchet_fan. He will never concede that Al-Andalus was part of European an Iberian history and that the majority of the descendants of the people that lived in Al-Andalus are still there in Spain and Portugal. As he implies, he demands that the usual writing of the nation's History be written by the winners, not by the defeated, and it doesn't matter that the defeated are also many of our (everyone's) ancestors, and their history is also part of our (everyone's, including Spaniards', of course) history and identity whether we hear about it or not, whether we even want to embrace it or not. He wants the history of the winners, not the complete historical account.

The man seems to be still totally brainwashed by the 19th century "official state history" of Spain based on a complete denial of any cultural, social and political continuity whatsoever with the pre-Reconquista society. It's as if the pre-Reconquista population simply vanished in the thin air and was immediately replaced (both physically and socioculturally) by something entirely new and totally "northern", with no links at all to the previous times. The limpieza de sangre was still on people's minds, if not physically, certainly ideologically and culturally: "Muslim" heritage, even if in fact those Muslims were just Islamized Iberians or even simply partially Arabized Iberian Christians (Must'arib > Mozarab), was a spot that should be completely "cleaned" (that's what limpieza means after all). Never mind that if that were really so Spain wouldn't have the largest amount of Arabic loanwords in Europe, and Andalusia wouldn't have most of its main toponyms (river names, city names, geographical landscape names etc.) derived from Arabic or from Arabized forms of older toponyms, and, of course, there is no indication at all that there was a wholesale genocide of the entire population living all over the southern half of Iberia, nor a complete and immediate cultural eradication, instead of a gradual, centuries-long process of Christianization, cultural change and southward migration forming a new sociocultural blend and a new population that was not simply a transplant of the northern Christian kingdoms.

But I advise you all: let it be. It's really important for him to believe that, because Andalusia is not the same as Al-Andalus, then that means the people, society, history and culture of Al-Andalus were totally erased, buried and, as he said, "problem solved" once the Reconquista happened (of course it wasn't an event, but a 300-year-old process, but don't let those details bother you, right?). They got rid of everything that could potentially relate them to those damn Muslims who were, as he also seems to believe, a bunch of "foreigners" (hmm, not quite, but, again, don't let small things like truth get in the way). And now they're all "pure Spaniards", nothing else. It's important for him to be at peace with his own identity, so let's not annoy him much longer. ;-)

Carlos
08-07-20, 00:55
The Reconquest was truly an exceptional job. Everything is documented and everything went to another stage, we don't even remember, it seems that Ygorcs is the one who decides how the peoples of Europe should be and feel.

How great, from the Kingdom of Tartessos to the present day, Al- Andalus a parenthesis of which we keep four and a half monuments as spoils of war.

800 years of wars and the guy wants us to feel feelings and continuity. I have already said that there is not, nor are we sorry, and any influence is already ours.

I am a native, caring, not someone who decides for the peoples from another continent without knowing them.

Ygorcs
08-07-20, 01:55
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4370112/

18th-19th century samples. Probably not indigenous people, but immigrants that somehow ended up in Brazil coming with sailors from the Pacific islands. Or, of course, that may be a misattribution, a mistaken identity given by those who kept the skulls in the mid-late 19th century. They are far too similar to Polynesian people to be descendants of a much earlier migration. Drift and admixture with Amerindians would've made them much less closely related with Polynesians if those Botocudo samples were indeed representatives of an early arrival of Southeast Asians in South America (not to mention that it is extremely improbable they would end up in Minas Gerais, in eastern Brazil, but not in Western South America, i.e. the Pacific coast).

Ygorcs
08-07-20, 01:59
The Reconquest was truly an exceptional job. Everything is documented and everything went to another stage, we don't even remember, it seems that Ygorcs is the one who decides how the peoples of Europe should be and feel.

How great, from the Kingdom of Tartessos to the present day, Al- Andalus a parenthesis of which we keep four and a half monuments as spoils of war.

800 years of wars and the guy wants us to feel feelings and continuity. I have already said that there is not, nor are we sorry, and any influence is already ours.

I am a native, caring, not someone who decides for the peoples from another continent without knowing them.

Ah, now finally you defined it very well: you're talking about feelings and emotional attachments, about national identity as a feeling. We here are talking about something else entirely: history, facts, genetics (and, sorry to break this to you: change in culture and politics don't change genetics suddenly). That's why we're speaking completely different languages. You're caring about how you feel and about how people think they should feel, even if facts and evidences dictate otherwise. You may feel however you wish, but, sorry, another fact that should be presented to you now: facts don't care about your feelings​. ;-)

Duarte
08-07-20, 02:18
18th-19th century samples. Probably not indigenous people, but immigrants that somehow ended up in Brazil coming with sailors from the Pacific islands. Or, of course, that may be a misattribution, a mistaken identity given by those who kept the skulls in the mid-late 19th century. They are far too similar to Polynesian people to be descendants of a much earlier migration. Drift and admixture with Amerindians would've made them much less closely related with Polynesians if those Botocudo samples were indeed representatives of an early arrival of Southeast Asians in South America (not to mention that it is extremely improbable they would end up in Minas Gerais, in eastern Brazil, but not in Western South America, i.e. the Pacific coast).

Perfect analysis @Ygorcs. Anyone who wants to attest to the Polynesian ancestry in the Botocudo Indians knows nothing about the geography of the South American continent. In fact, for this to happen, the Polynesians, after crossing the entire Pacific Ocean, would have climbed the Andes, crossed Patagonia and Pampas, climbed the central Brazilian plateau, reaching the Rio Doce Valley in Minas Gerais and mixed with the local Indians . If that is true it is the most epic story of humanity on the planet.

Not to mention that the botocudos were indigenous peoples from the Southeast of Brazil who offered mayor resistance to the Portuguese colonizers, so they were extinct after successive and continuous conflicts. Why would they have handled the supposed newcomers from Polynesia better?

PS: Polynesians were peoples of the sea. I don't believe they have the ability to climb.

Carlos
08-07-20, 09:33
Ah, now finally you defined it very well: you're talking about feelings and emotional attachments, about national identity as a feeling. We here are talking about something else entirely: history, facts, genetics (and, sorry to break this to you: change in culture and politics don't change genetics suddenly). That's why we're speaking completely different languages. You're caring about how you feel and about how people think they should feel, even if facts and evidences dictate otherwise. You may feel however you wish, but, sorry, another fact that should be presented to you now: facts don't care about your feelings​. ;-)


It is not a political or system change to the same population. It is something that genetics has also demonstrated and that corroborates history.


Ancient natives who were converted to Islam and later returned to Christianity. The colonists of the repopulation that is well documented.


How will the same population be changing systems. Precisely science corroborates the sentiment in this case.

I am 100 x 100 Andalusian. Here are some of my results. I also speak of science.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kl_XuYPSteQ/XvjfN2TuB0I/AAAAAAAAEMo/Ke0Xj9rglpcTPoh7I4ZVjMBBszSRUX44ACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/BichonWHG%252CJPEG.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gpSRcpFUBhU/XvNOO2tf4jI/AAAAAAAAEB0/u-ESt1pHVv0fh3d4AYZe4rodu1k__9MqgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/R1ProtovillanoviaMartinsicuro.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EP-fdk9NzA0/XvjYgzarumI/AAAAAAAAEMQ/MIKRTzbKUN46P4O4dj2K2aaqs0oVB5vYwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/GoyetQ116-1.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rqAndo79vi8/XvNQM4wf83I/AAAAAAAAECA/sl6gp96CsxQv-pGKm1pxL4L5ItqgGpzCQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Altai.Nsiberia.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Q7R0jjVl5uY/XvNeItuGEnI/AAAAAAAAECc/Ls2_M-1U1yAEd4gnzfTZOlXgCQQd2JnGACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/YammnayaI0231.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0Hr4V4QxDgI/XvNeMYUnoeI/AAAAAAAAECk/GqxKZtnyD68ntujkwp3u1Ikv3y3MgeQmACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/VillabrunaEpigravetian.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EC1KZzbWO0w/XvNeP6JaChI/AAAAAAAAECo/8BDBECFEpZIltbdDsGpg8JiKG81E6OjawCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Ust-IshimSiberia.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/--ZVA1WbGWLQ/XvNeUg5aZdI/AAAAAAAAECs/jnUXwozjJo4LQLHx_3BXlmrBo4ANq2ZWACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Ostuni1GrevettianItaly.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GKLX-py24GQ/XvNeYfhUxlI/AAAAAAAAECw/q8dRHGQEbWQhiYEdqB3EVbzhRrIp5W6UgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/LaBra%25C3%25B1aWHG.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8Q_LcSeVKXs/XvNefbCXceI/AAAAAAAAEC8/lqpf4fjL0KsDkJ6AQJZkpXAzRFeSJMI3gCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/I0172eSPERSTEDTMN.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3ItCU0tBHjE/XvNk2rqWfII/AAAAAAAAEEU/lUtWrR5EzQk2qr-hqly2x9UZIgBhbyfhQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Rathlin1IrelandBA-M232268.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ByzoeTd1rPQ/XvPTyLj5I-I/AAAAAAAAEEo/o2gztXge7TwlJK_qhfE4sTXREiMb-uSogCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Gokhem2Sweden.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FHd-WrPIgdE/XvjZgqgRzHI/AAAAAAAAEMc/STkrAaR_WqMfJZjAOqhcBizBYGwHBQ4egCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/HungaryEN-Neolithic-I1506-NE1.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P7UCgxDjCF4/XvPUXU2M5nI/AAAAAAAAEFM/6hkFkNK9RdQgkWv4ZHyW3Eof_SxOM1GJwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PolandHunter-GathererN22.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2KARWoSdoU0/XvPUtmWnHxI/AAAAAAAAEFs/20zAOp__NkcieFAqMK-HTJz7VsanF7IsQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/YammnayaI0231.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dm2Wrf72reA/XvaKHN4wY4I/AAAAAAAAEGI/--fG-x6KTIIAR2d0GiYfIWrItdSFlvZ9gCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/LBKi0054.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ryBL-4voHqc/XvaN8kxXXTI/AAAAAAAAEGc/wKRorHW3mIkqyJb4CVVdrIjuBgx8ahlOgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/CordedWareGermanyI0103.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fyoasBg2UQ4/XvaPCLG0cGI/AAAAAAAAEGw/pTKe7NPd9nICPoN8O3WjD5M_inY2UBzBACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/UneticeI0116.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-M7KLOqWoMTI/XvaRSuY4O7I/AAAAAAAAEHQ/BhqkYJyzINQtw3k8MCrbLaZg4XLiIVKXgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/UneticeI0164.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7TQliayhqpc/XvaVywP4TyI/AAAAAAAAEHg/qlCunei4m_UOiZMkT-cMRQvQsWReoQ79QCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/MNspainI0408.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_AZ7r2EtmnU/XvaWKKJKqtI/AAAAAAAAEH4/LaDuRiYI-0c11UgZ32UhJT4KetWIgfoSgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/CooperAgeSpainI1277.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2Yn2suyqplU/XvaZF2QhOQI/AAAAAAAAEII/vfSbgdd-nqEl-V1GsYiJO8NDoeJmLQaeACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/BeakerNorthItalyI2477.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Zvm9eQEUIwc/XvaaSPSgtiI/AAAAAAAAEIc/S4HYfRstUVgBkALjhD94nO-wgmENK5rqgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/BeakerNoSteppeItalyi2477.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cX-6qEDgfBA/XvagjUuRC8I/AAAAAAAAEJw/xh_20699nso7SmhV65XlmxUZ47ZzaD8KgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/BeakerSouthFranceI3874.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mmj3LBSYQfk/Xvaba2WO82I/AAAAAAAAEIw/f8pnuYeUJGYIW3TA_A5xkK3TVOxZhpdzwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/NeolithicRomaniai2532.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nJEvRDDyNEs/Xvac1gC8a1I/AAAAAAAAEJE/2dr6LNjEi_4VWCskh7kFICs8uvKjdGvDQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/NeolithicOrkneyI2630.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kTjZvPv1Bew/XvafSUkBmLI/AAAAAAAAEJk/kpMlsIU4nR4pemqL8OldPILEsIQFRrcFwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/AndalusianVisigothI3585.JPEG

Ygorcs
08-07-20, 23:43
Yes, but so what? Al-Andalus was in Europe, was part of European history whether people like it or not, and was mostly inhabited by Europeans who were "100% Spaniards" just like you (whatever that is meant to be according you, considering that the majority of Spaniards and Portuguese have 5-15% of North African + Levantine ancestry, but that is ultimately also essential part of what makes someone from Spain or Portugal - again, whether people like it or not). Bosnians and Albanians didn't stop being Europeans and having deep ties to their ancestral customs and history when they converted to Islam, either. Also, in Al-Andalus a sizeable proportion of the population remained Christian, and they were part of a prestiged and populous land, not some forgettable backward zone.

Carlos
09-07-20, 00:22
Yes, but so what? Al-Andalus was in Europe, was part of European history whether people like it or not, and was mostly inhabited by Europeans who were "100% Spaniards" just like you (whatever that is meant to be according you, considering that the majority of Spaniards and Portuguese have 5-15% of North African + Levantine ancestry, but that is ultimately also essential part of what makes someone from Spain or Portugal - again, whether people like it or not). Bosnians and Albanians didn't stop being Europeans and having deep ties to their ancestral customs and history when they converted to Islam, either. Also, in Al-Andalus a sizeable proportion of the population remained Christian, and they were part of a prestiged and populous land, not some forgettable backward zone.

Enrique Vlll repudiated his wives and nobody condemns him and many others.


Why do modern Europeans demand that we have to accept everything?


I totally repudiate and reject Al Andalus to that historical period whose end shows the history as it was, it seems that the Reconquest forgets, look at all that process shapes our character and forms the unity of all the territories of Spain, I can not, it is impossible, since I told him, this is not swallowing all the volumes of the Larousse, this is written in the genes.

Can you continue talking about Al Andalus and its "wonders" It is not a subject that interests me too much, the truth is, I prefer the subjects of Spain or Andalusia, thanks

Duarte
09-07-20, 00:35
Dear friend Carlos. I respect your personal positions and I will not disturb you anymore. But this thread is not about Spain, Portugal or Andalusia. This topic is about Al-Andalus.

Duarte
09-07-20, 00:46
Dear friend Carlos. I respect your personal positions and I will not disturb you anymore. But this thread is not about Spain, Portugal or Andalusia. This topic is about Al-Andalus.

My dear friend Carlos. I said I wouldn't disturb you anymore and I intend to keep my word. Just to end my participation in this thread. Whenever you are expressing a personal position on a specific subject, always use the IMO or IMHO reference. Cheers. :good_job:

Salento
09-07-20, 01:20
Enrique Vlll repudiated his wives and nobody condemns him and many others.


Why do modern Europeans demand that we have to accept everything?


I totally repudiate and reject Al Andalus to that historical period whose end shows the history as it was, it seems that the Reconquest forgets, look at all that process shapes our character and forms the unity of all the territories of Spain, I can not, it is impossible, since I told him, this is not swallowing all the volumes of the Larousse, this is written in the genes.

Can you continue talking about Al Andalus and its "wonders" It is not a subject that interests me too much, the truth is, I prefer the subjects of Spain or Andalusia, thanks

I witnessed the opposite,

I assure you that Catherine of Aragon is highly respected, ... and many people go to Peterborough (England) to see her,

... many Spaniard students and visitors bring flowers and pay their respects to their Queen.

Regio X
09-07-20, 01:43
@Duarte @Ygorcs

This is new, and interesting:
Ancient voyage carried Native Americans’ DNA to remote Pacific islands
"Finding that some Polynesians carry genetic ancestry from South America supports long-held theory that ancient populations met and interbred."

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02055-4

Duarte
09-07-20, 02:02
@Duarte @Ygorcs
This is new, and interesting:
Ancient voyage carried Native Americans’ DNA to remote Pacific islands
"Finding that some Polynesians carry genetic ancestry from South America supports long-held theory that ancient populations met and interbred."
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02055-4

Really fascinating, @Regio. Thank you very much by information. New line of research. Let’s go guys. This is it.

Ygorcs
09-07-20, 02:14
Enrique Vlll repudiated his wives and nobody condemns him and many others.

Yes, but so what? (Besides, I could ask: who the heck does not condemn Henry VIII for the way he repudiated his wives?)
Totally off-topic.


Why do modern Europeans demand that we have to accept everything?

Now that was some really unbelievable leap of logic. From the marriages of Henry VIII straight to the genetic, societal and cultural heritage of entire populations. Of course, these are almost the same thing, perfect comparison.

I totally repudiate and reject Al Andalus to that historical period whose end shows the history as it was, it seems that the Reconquest forgets, look at all that process shapes our character and forms the unity of all the territories of Spain, I can not, it is impossible, since I told him, this is not swallowing all the volumes of the Larousse, this is written in the genes.

Nobody cares if you repudiate it. The topic is not about your feelings or about things that you think are "written" in your genes. And apart from your first sentence, the rest is written in such a confusing and poor English that I honestly didn't understand.

Also, I'm sure many Galicians, Basques and Catalonians wouldn't exactly agree that it was the Reconquista that shaped the unity of all the territories of Spain.


Can you continue talking about Al Andalus and its "wonders" It is not a subject that interests me too much, the truth is, I prefer the subjects of Spain or Andalusia, thanks

If it doesn't interest you, good riddance, you shouldn't be commenting on a thread about Al-Andalus. And, yes, we should continue talking about Al-Andalus (with its wonders and its evils, as we are dealing with history, not with cherry-picked historical myths promoted by some state or its intelligentsia). After all, this is exactly what the thread is about.

ratchet_fan
09-07-20, 02:31
On a related note al-Andalus is where sugar took off in Spain. Is there anything similar to dulce de leche in cookbooks from the time? I've always been interested how that developed.

it seems there's two competing theories about its origins.


Argentinean
Colonial Indonesia (by Dutch? Indonesians?) then perfected by Spanish in the Philippines and then taken to Spain and then to the rest of the world


How do the European dishes similar to this play into this? Independent origin?


Norman confiture de lait
Norwegian hamar-pålegg/haPå
Russian/Eastern European varenaya sgushenka



Varenaya sgushenka is said to have Turkish (Tatar origins) or at least condensed milk is.

https://northstarreports.org/2015/02/16/bliss-in-a-blue-and-white-tin-sweetened-condensed-milk-in-russia-the-north-star-reports-by-marin-ekstrom-sponsored-by-the-college-of-st-scholastica-and-the-middle-ground-journal/ (https://northstarreports.org/2015/02/16/bliss-in-a-blue-and-white-tin-sweetened-condensed-milk-in-russia-the-north-star-reports-by-marin-ekstrom-sponsored-by-the-college-of-st-scholastica-and-the-middle-ground-journal/)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensed_milk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensed_milk)

"According to the writings of Marco Polo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo), in the thirteenth century the Tatars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars) were able to condense milk. Marco Polo reported that ten pounds (4.5 kg) of milk paste was carried by each man, who would subsequently mix the product with water. "

However, the next sentence seems to disagree with that.

"However, this probably refers to the soft Tatar curd (katyk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyk)), which can be made into a drink (ayran (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayran)) by diluting it, and therefore refers to fermented, not fresh, milk concentrate."

It is then attributed to these inventors.

"Nicolas Appert (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Appert) condensed milk in France in 1820,[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensed_milk#cite_note-4) and Gail Borden, Jr. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gail_Borden,_Jr.), in the United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) in 1853, in reaction to difficulties in storing milk for more than a few hours."

So is this product Argentenian or Indonesian? Do any of the European products have a legitimate claim of an independent invention? And if they do is it because of Turkish contributions?

Its such a confusing food to pinpoint the origin of.

Sorry for the tangent. I'm curious about Europe's food history.

Duarte
09-07-20, 02:53
On a related note al-Andalus is where sugar took off in Spain. Is there anything similar to dulce de leche in cookbooks from the time? I've always been interested how that developed.

it seems there's two competing theories about its origins.


Argentinean
Colonial Indonesia (by Dutch? Indonesians?) then perfected by Spanish in the Philippines and then taken to Spain and then to the rest of the world


How do the European dishes similar to this play into this? Independent origin?


Norman confiture de lait
Norwegian hamar-pålegg/haPå
Russian/Eastern European varenaya sgushenka



Varenaya sgushenka is said to have Turkish (Tatar origins) or at least condensed milk is.

https://northstarreports.org/2015/02/16/bliss-in-a-blue-and-white-tin-sweetened-condensed-milk-in-russia-the-north-star-reports-by-marin-ekstrom-sponsored-by-the-college-of-st-scholastica-and-the-middle-ground-journal/ (https://northstarreports.org/2015/02/16/bliss-in-a-blue-and-white-tin-sweetened-condensed-milk-in-russia-the-north-star-reports-by-marin-ekstrom-sponsored-by-the-college-of-st-scholastica-and-the-middle-ground-journal/)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensed_milk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensed_milk)

"According to the writings of Marco Polo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo), in the thirteenth century the Tatars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars) were able to condense milk. Marco Polo reported that ten pounds (4.5 kg) of milk paste was carried by each man, who would subsequently mix the product with water. "

However, the next sentence seems to disagree with that.

"However, this probably refers to the soft Tatar curd (katyk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyk)), which can be made into a drink (ayran (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayran)) by diluting it, and therefore refers to fermented, not fresh, milk concentrate."

It is then attributed to these inventors.

"Nicolas Appert (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Appert) condensed milk in France in 1820,[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensed_milk#cite_note-4) and Gail Borden, Jr. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gail_Borden,_Jr.), in the United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) in 1853, in reaction to difficulties in storing milk for more than a few hours."

So is this product Argentenian or Indonesian? Do any of the European products have a legitimate claim of an independent invention? And if they do is it because of Turkish contributions?

Its such a confusing food to pinpoint the origin of.

Sorry for the tangent. I'm curious about Europe's food history.

I ask apologize for my bairrism and what I'm going to post next is not advertising the products of my state. The best ‘milk sweets’ in the world are produced in the state of Minas Gerais / Brazil and the best of them is the 'Doce de Leite de Viçosa.' I could talk about the cheeses, yogurts and many other dairy products sold throughout Brazil, but that is another story. Here are @Regio X (State of Rio Grande do Sul) and @Ygorcs (State of Ceará) that wouldn't let me to lie.
Cheers :good_job:

https://i.imgur.com/Ni4Tr0F.png

Ygorcs
09-07-20, 03:26
I ask apologize for my bairrism and what I'm going to post next is not advertising the products of my state. The best ‘milk sweets’ in the world are produced in the state of Minas Gerais / Brazil and the best of them is the 'Doce de Leite de Viçosa.' I could talk about the cheeses, yogurts and many other dairy products sold throughout Brazil, but that is another story. Here are @Regio X and @Ygorcs that wouldn't let me to lie.
Cheers :good_job:

I'm a suspect on this, because I love all dairy products and I am Brazilian, so I'm no disinterested party, but I must say I prefer the Brazilian-style doce de leite to Argentina's dulce de leche by far. The dulce de leche tasted to me and also had a texture that reminds me a lot of caremel, very, very sweety, and a more homogeneous, even cream. Brazilian doce de leite is less sweety, with a more heterogeneous texture with some slightly harder bits within the cream, and tastes more milky than sugary. I think it's much batter especially to eat as a dessert on its own, while dulce de leche is delicious mainly spread over mildly salty or not so sweet bread or cookies. That softens the very sweety taste of the dessert, the combined taste is excellent. But Brazilian doce de leite is excellent both on its own or as an accompaniment to bread or cookies, and you can eat much more of it without getting sick of it.

Dulce de leche looks much better, but I'll go with the taste of doce de leite.

https://receitadevovo.com.br/gbau/sistema/receitas/img/doce-de-leite-em-calda.jpg
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/__moMjcyeLMo/SZX15rhB01I/AAAAAAAABxg/f0fpB4GBIBA/s800/Leitinho+7.jpg

"Brazilian style"

https://fromargentinawithlove.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/02/07/dsc09967.jpg
https://i.redd.it/oh8g1i7ik8c41.jpg

"Argentine style"

Duarte
09-07-20, 03:43
I'm a suspect on this, because I love all dairy products and I am Brazilian, so I'm no disinterested party, but I must say I prefer the Brazilian-style doce de leite to Argentina's dulce de leche by far. The dulce de leche tasted to me and also had a texture that reminds me a lot of caremel, very, very sweety, and a more homogeneous, even cream. Brazilian doce de leite is less sweety, with a more heterogeneous texture with some slightly harder bits within the cream, and tastes more milky than sugary. I think it's much batter especially to eat as a dessert on its own, while dulce de leche is delicious mainly spread over mildly salty or not so sweet bread or cookies. That softens the very sweety taste of the dessert, the combined taste is excellent. But Brazilian doce de leite is excellent both on its own or as an accompaniment to bread or cookies, and you can eat much more of it without getting sick of it.

Dulce de leche looks much better, but I'll go with the taste of doce de leite.

https://receitadevovo.com.br/gbau/sistema/receitas/img/doce-de-leite-em-calda.jpg
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/__moMjcyeLMo/SZX15rhB01I/AAAAAAAABxg/f0fpB4GBIBA/s800/Leitinho+7.jpg

"Brazilian style"

https://fromargentinawithlove.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/02/07/dsc09967.jpg
https://i.redd.it/oh8g1i7ik8c41.jpg

"Argentine style"

It seems that in Minas Gerais we produce the sweet in style ‘dulce de leche’ and not in the style ‘doce de leite’ that you are showing in the pics. These pics are the Ceará Style? I’m wrong about that?

Regio X
09-07-20, 04:05
@Duarte
Indeed, Minas Gerais is well known in Brazil for its really great dairy products.
(Agora fiquei com vontade de provar o doce de leite Viçosa, he he he.)

What Ygorcs posted doesn't look the Doce de Leite the way I know it, indeed. What he posted we "gaúchos" call ambrosia:
"É também o nome de um doce originário da Península Ibérica, popular também no interior do Brasil, feito de leite, ovos e açúcar. É um dos doces mais típicos do Rio Grande do Sul. No Brasil, também é conhecido como doce de ovos, ou doce de leite de bolinhas, devido à forma que este possui quando pronto para consumo."
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosia

https://s2.glbimg.com/j7pTp1lonsqYVocikLsk5ZoUSr8=/0x0:450x334/984x0/smart/filters:strip_icc()/s.glbimg.com/po/rc/media/2013/01/11/10_01_43_825_pic.jpg

Ygorcs
09-07-20, 04:09
@Duarte
Indeed, Minas Gerais is well known in Brazil for its really great dairy products.

What Ygorcs posted doesn't look the Doce de Leite the way I know it, indeed. What he posted we "gaúchos" call ambrosia:
"É também o nome de um doce originário da Península Ibérica, popular também no interior do Brasil, feito de leite, ovos e açúcar. É um dos doces mais típicos do Rio Grande do Sul. No Brasil, também é conhecido como doce de ovos, ou doce de leite de bolinhas, devido à forma que este possui quando pronto para consumo."
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosia

https://s2.glbimg.com/j7pTp1lonsqYVocikLsk5ZoUSr8=/0x0:450x334/984x0/smart/filters:strip_icc()/s.glbimg.com/po/rc/media/2013/01/11/10_01_43_825_pic.jpg

No, that doce de leite​ made in the Northeast doesn't take eggs. It's just condensed milk under very hot temperatures. Ambrosia must be something else.

Duarte
09-07-20, 04:12
It seems that in Minas Gerais we produce the sweet in style ‘dulce de leche’ and not in the style ‘doce de leite’ that you are showing in the pics. These pics are the Ceará Style? I’m wrong about that?

See, now in my house:

https://i.imgur.com/w5ABlfK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/c6O2a2w.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/HujS0bW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Qla92bq.jpg

Regio X
09-07-20, 04:20
No, that doce de leite​ made in the Northeast doesn't take eggs. It's just condensed milk under very hot temperatures. Ambrosia must be something else.It's very similar then.

You posted this image:
https://receitadevovo.com.br/gbau/sistema/receitas/img/doce-de-leite-em-calda.jpg

If we go to the recipe of the above (https://receitadevovo.com.br/receitas/doce-de-leite-em-calda), it says:
"5 ovos batidos ligeiramente"

Duarte
09-07-20, 04:44
@Ygorcs @RegioX
Dear fellows, I think that it’s very, but very cool these our little divergences about the ‘sweet’ style. Doce de leite or Dulce de Leche. Doesn’t matter. Our country is really big. We need to visit ourselves more. I love that diversity.
Cheers :)

Ygorcs
09-07-20, 05:13
It's very similar then.

You posted this image:
https://receitadevovo.com.br/gbau/sistema/receitas/img/doce-de-leite-em-calda.jpg

If we go to the recipe of the above (https://receitadevovo.com.br/receitas/doce-de-leite-em-calda), it says:
"5 ovos batidos ligeiramente"

Interesting, so it looks exactly as we sometimes call "doce de leite queimado" ("burned") here, and the texture seems to be very similar (is it creamy despite the harder balls in its midst, though?), but I wonder if it also tastes the same. Is it also less sugary and more milky than the "doce de leite" you know?

Another cultural contrast that I didn't see coming. Brazil is really diverse, many countries unified in one only nation. :-D

But the first question remains: who really created it first?

Ygorcs
09-07-20, 05:15
@Ygorcs @RegioX
Dear fellows, I think that it’s very, but very cool these our little divergences about the ‘sweet’ style. Doce de leite or Dulce de Leche. Doesn’t matter. Our country is really big. We need to visit ourselves more. I love that diversity.
Cheers :)

Agreed. By the way my dream internal tourism trip is to Minas Gerais. I have only visited cities in Ceará (of course, it's where I was born), Pernambuco, Rio Grande do Norte, Pará and Rio Grande do Sul so far (a few hours in Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo inside the airport don't really count). But Minas Gerais is definitely the state I am most curious to visit in Brazil. Let's hope I'll have this dream fulfilled sooner rather than later... after the pandemic, of course. lol

Duarte
09-07-20, 05:26
Agreed. By the way my dream internal tourism trip is to Minas Gerais. I have only visited cities in Ceará (of course, it's where I was born), Pernambuco, Rio Grande do Norte, Pará and Rio Grande do Sul so far (a few hours in Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo inside the airport don't really count). But Minas Gerais is definitely the state I am most curious to visit in Brazil. Let's hope I'll have this dream fulfilled sooner rather than later... after the pandemic, of course. lol

Ceará is very rich. Splendid culture. I know almost the entire coast of Ceará. Unfortunately I don’t know the place that had been nominated as the most beautiful beach in the world: Jericoacoara. If God wants, I will know yet. :good_job:

Regio X
09-07-20, 13:31
@Duarte
Indeed. Brazil is very diverse.
By the way, my first trip with my wife was to Minas Gerais, and the last two were to Northeast (Pernambuco and Alagoas). :)
I've never been in Ceará, but I intend to visit it, of course. My siblings know it well, and certainly loved it.

@Ygorcs
You should visit Minas. It's really great!
As for the doce de leite, yes, ambrosia is not that sweet, and the "balls" are not exactly creamy. But it's very soft, of course, and delicious.
Regarding the origin, Wikipedia says ambrosia is Iberian, but who knows!
A place in Rio Grande do Sul well known by its Portuguese sweets is Pelotas.

http://docesdepelotas.org.br/site/

https://gauchazh.clicrbs.com.br/comportamento/viagem/noticia/2017/05/um-roteiro-pela-historia-dos-doces-de-pelotas-9802695.html

ratchet_fan
09-07-20, 14:40
Those pics are making me hungry. Any insights on the origin though?

Duarte
09-07-20, 17:55
Those pics are making me hungry. Any insights on the origin though?

@ratchet_fan

Milk sweet


The dulce de leche (Spanish) or doce de leite (Portuguese) is a sweet (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doce) milk-based and sugar and traditional in many countries (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pa%C3%ADs) of Latin America (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Am%C3%A9rica_Latina) . It is usually made by boiling milk (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leite) with sugar (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C3%A7%C3%BAcar) or cooking condensed milk (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leite_condensado) , being used in candies (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bala_(doce)) and other sweet foods, such as cakes (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolo) , cookies (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscoito) or ice cream (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorvete)and in some places, it is enjoyed with toast (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrada) or used as a filling for churros (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churros) .
The most common variations of the sweet are pasty and solid (which can be cut into bars or pieces), which differ in consistency.

Source

Milk candy origin is uncertain, but is linked to the rapid expansion in the production of sucrose (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacarose) from sugarcane (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cana-de-a%C3%A7%C3%BAcar) in the Iberian Atlantic islands, in the fifteenth century (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9culo_XV) , and in Brazil (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brasil) , Central America (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Am%C3%A9rica_Central)and Caribbean (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antilhas) from the sixteenth century (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9culo_XVI) and the possibility of its use for milk (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leite) preservation . As a first sweetener (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edulcorante) of large-scale production, the sugar (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C3%A7%C3%BAcar) cane is now used in the conservation of various organic products, including milk (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leite) of cow (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaca) or goat (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabra), giving rise to products similar to current dulce de leche, pasty or solid, throughout Latin America (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Am%C3%A9rica_Latina) and in certain Iberian locations.
An Argentine patriotic version claims that it was invented by Juan Manuel de Rosas (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Manuel_de_Rosas) , an Argentine (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina)politician (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol%C3%ADtica) from the 19th century (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9culo_XIX) . He would be preparing some hot milk on a winter (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverno) afternoon when someone knocked on the door (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porta) . He forgot the pot (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panela) on the fire (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogo) , giving rise to the dulce de leche. [ (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doce_de_leite#cite_note-1) 1 (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doce_de_leite#cite_note-1)] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doce_de_leite#cite_note-1)

Regional variations

In Brazil (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brasil) , the candy is produced on an industrial scale by companies that benefit from dairy products, in addition to artisanal production, when it is sold by small brands. In Argentina (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina) , the most popular brands are La Serenísima and Sancor , while in Venezuela (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela) , the sweet is traditionally made in the city of Coro (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coro_(Venezuela)) , where it is sold pure or with chocolate (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chocolate)(dulce de leche con chocolate). In Mexico (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9xico) , it is called cajeta because of the small wooden (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeira) boxes in which the candy is sold. In this country, the candy is made with half cow (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaca) 's milk (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaca) and half milk ofgoat (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bode)[ 2 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doce_de_leite#cite_note-2) .
In France (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7a) , confiture de lait is also very popular, especially in the Normandy (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normandia) region and can be flavored with hazelnuts or chocolate.

Record Brazil

In August 2014, the city of Ipanema (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipanema_(Minas_Gerais)) recorded the record for the country's biggest milk sweet when preparing the 507.5 kg treat. The fact was registered and certified by RankBrasil (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RankBrasil) and the candy was distributed in the edition of the city's Cheese Festival [ 3 ] (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doce_de_leite#cite_note-3) .

Other names



Dulce de leche (in Spanish (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%ADngua_castelhana) )
Blancmange
Cajeta (in Central America (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Am%C3%A9rica_Central) and Mexico (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9xico) )
Arequipe (in Colombia (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Col%C3%B4mbia) and Venezuela (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela) )


References



↑ (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doce_de_leite#cite_ref-1)«History of the leche de leche | Todo Dulce de leche :: TodoDulcedeLeche.com.ar » (http://tododulcedeleche.com.ar/historia-del-dulce-de-leche/) . tododulcedeleche.com.ar . Retrieved on July 31, 2016
↑ (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doce_de_leite#cite_ref-2)Milk sweets in Latin America (http://www.slowfoodbrasil.com/textos/alimentacao-e-cultura/154-os-doces-de-leite-na-america-latina) Slow F. Brazil
↑ (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doce_de_leite#cite_ref-3)City breaks records with the biggest Minas cheese and the biggest dulce de leche in Brazil (http://noticias.r7.com/videos/cidade-bate-recordes-com-o-maior-queijo-minas-e-o-maior-doce-de-leite-do-brasil/idmedia/53df9fc10cf2a41e184113ed.html)Filed on (https://web.archive.org/web/20140809041450/http://noticias.r7.com/videos/cidade-bate-recordes-com-o-maior-queijo-minas-e-o-maior-doce-de-leite-do-brasil/idmedia/53df9fc10cf2a41e184113ed.html) August 9, 2014, in the Wayback Machine (https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayback_Machine) .Portal R7


Source: Portuguese Wikipedia

https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doce_de_leite

ratchet_fan
09-07-20, 19:50
@Duarte

I have heard that story. However, I have all heard of Turkic and SE Asian origins.

If you understand Spanish

https://www.telam.com.ar/notas/201609/163915-daniel-balmaceda-el-dulce-de-leche-no-es-un-invento-argentino.html

Duarte
09-07-20, 20:41
@Duarte

I have heard that story. However, I have all heard of Turkic and SE Asian origins.

If you understand Spanish

https://www.telam.com.ar/notas/201609/163915-daniel-balmaceda-el-dulce-de-leche-no-es-un-invento-argentino.html

Yes. I understand and read Spanish, so well as my own native Portuguese. Thank you for the link. The interviewee in the report says that the ‘dulce de leche’ was already consumed in Southeast Asia in ancient times and that it would have passed through the Philippines and then reached Acapulco, Mexico, after crossing the Pacific Ocean.

The production of ‘dulce de leche’ in Minas Gerais, Brazil, aimed to take advantage of large surplus amounts of milk, not consumed 'in natura' or in the production of cheese and other milk derivatives.

Just to poke our dear neighbors here in South America: I know this story in which ‘Los Hermanos’ claim for themselves the invention of sweet of milk. It may be, but a country that does not produce a single gram of cane sugar is the inventor of ‘dulce de leche’ seems still strange for me. Brazil is the largest producer and exporter of sugar on the planet. But you can also argue that Switzerland and Belgium don't even produce a gram of cocoa and make the best chocolate in the world. Under that argument, I would be forced to agree with ‘Los Hermanos’ since one thing is not related to the other, lol.

Cheers ;)

ratchet_fan
09-07-20, 21:16
Yes. I understand and read Spanish, so well as my own native Portuguese. Thank you for the link. The interviewee in the report says that the dulce de leche was already consumed in Southeast Asia in ancient times and that it would have passed through the Philippines and then reached Acapulco, Mexico, after crossing the Pacific Ocean.

Just to poke our dear neighbors here in South America: I know this story in which ‘Los Hermanos’ claim for themselves the invention of sweet of milk. It may be, but a country that does not produce a single gram of cane sugar is the inventor of ‘dulce de leche’ seems still strange for me. Brazil is the largest producer and exporter of sugar on the planet. But you can also argue that Switzerland and Belgium don't even produce a gram of cocoa and make the best chocolate in the world. Under that argument, I would be forced to agree with ‘Los Hermanos’ since one thing is not related to the other, lol.
Cheers ;)

I have my doubts on a SE Asian origin. What is the name of this sweet in SE Asia? Also how do we know it wasn't independently invented in France or Spain or Argentina.

This guy says it goes back to 16th century Indonesia.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=https://www.infoallen.com.ar/2016/09/el-dulce-de-leche-es-originario-de.html&prev=search&pto=aue

ratchet_fan
10-07-20, 15:59
Anybody else know about the origin? I researched the Indonesian thing and oculdn't find anything.

Carlos
10-07-20, 17:44
"Originally the dulce de leche was eaten and prepared in Indonesia, in Southeast Asia, and from there it was taken to the Philippine Islands around the 6th century," Balmaceda said.


At that time, the Philippine Islands were under the Spanish crown, so the Philippine sailors of the Pacific exported the 'delicacy' to America, especially to the Acapulco area, Mexico.


"And from there, the dulce de leche began to multiply throughout the continent, each producing its own version"

https://www.lanacion.com.ar/sociedad/en-donde-nacio-realmente-el-dulce-de-leche-nid1941420

In the Spanish networks the version is this.

ratchet_fan
10-07-20, 17:48
"Originally the dulce de leche was eaten and prepared in Indonesia, in Southeast Asia, and from there it was taken to the Philippine Islands around the 6th century," Balmaceda said.


At that time, the Philippine Islands were under the Spanish crown, so the Philippine sailors of the Pacific exported the 'delicacy' to America, especially to the Acapulco area, Mexico.


"And from there, the dulce de leche began to multiply throughout the continent, each producing its own version"

https://www.lanacion.com.ar/sociedad/en-donde-nacio-realmente-el-dulce-de-leche-nid1941420

In the Spanish networks the version is this.

This story seems likely to you? I think it is European personally. Condensed milk is from France. Not hard to figure out to boil it imo.

Carlos
11-07-20, 19:19
The version seems credible to me for the data it offers.

Condensed milk, I imagine, has also had great success worldwide; although I do not know it at all. In Spain at least it is a very integrated product that you already consider your own. With the fad of slimming diets, perhaps younger generations have somewhat forgotten it, perhaps in more urban areas, but in southern Spain it is normal to find it in bars as an alternative to coffee with milk, in this case with condensed milk in less quantity. Of course, I love it, also for desserts.

ratchet_fan
11-07-20, 19:33
The version seems credible to me for the data it offers.

Condensed milk, I imagine, has also had great success worldwide; although I do not know it at all. In Spain at least it is a very integrated product that you already consider your own. With the fad of slimming diets, perhaps younger generations have somewhat forgotten it, perhaps in more urban areas, but in southern Spain it is normal to find it in bars as an alternative to coffee with milk, in this case with condensed milk in less quantity. Of course, I love it, also for desserts.

I didn't see any data on the Indonesian origin. If you read about this good on Dutch, Indonesian, Malaysian and Filipino wikipedia there is not mention of anything similar to dulce de leche. On the other hand condensed milk was invented in France (like a lot of food products) so a European origin seems more likely.

The French have confiture de last.
The Russians have varenaya sgushenka.
Also the Norwegians have two similar products.
- Prim/Mossmor (made from whey): https://www.tine.no/_/recipeimage/w_1280%2Ch_720%2Cc_fill%2Cx_1500%2Cy_1000%2Cg_xy_c enter/recipeimage/358112.jpg
-Gomme (made from curdled sour milk)
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qYaExTIdXAI/UzvqxnFqQSI/AAAAAAAAEdM/AkqP07ZVHRw/s1600/gomme+p%C3%A5+skive+blogg.jpg

Carlos
11-07-20, 23:45
I didn't see any data on the Indonesian origin. If you read about this good on Dutch, Indonesian, Malaysian and Filipino wikipedia there is not mention of anything similar to dulce de leche. On the other hand condensed milk was invented in France (like a lot of food products) so a European origin seems more likely.

The Manila Galleon, also called Nao de China, was the name by which the Spanish ships that crossed the Pacific Ocean once or twice a year between Manila (Philippines) and the ports of New Spain in America, mainly Acapulco, were known. Bahía de Banderas (Nayarit), San Blas (Nayarit) and Cabo San Lucas (Baja California Sur). The name of the galleon varied according to the destination city.

The service was opened in 1565 by the Spanish sailor and friar Andrés de Urdaneta, after discovering the tornaviaje or route back to New Spain through the Pacific Ocean, thanks to the east-facing Kuroshio current

The other great Spanish trade route was that of the Fleet of the Indies that crossed the Atlantic Ocean between Veracruz, Cartagena de Indias, Portobelo, Havana and Seville or Cádiz. Part of the eastern merchandise of the Manila Galleon landed in Acapulco were in turn transported by land to Veracruz, where they embarked in the Indian fleets bound for Spain. For this reason, the ships that sailed from Veracruz were loaded with merchandise from the East from the commercial centers of the Philippines, plus the precious metals and natural resources of Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gale%C3%B3n_de_Manila


I see "dulce de leche" and its expansion in this context and moment I could not tell you why, but on this specific occasion I am convinced by this version

ratchet_fan
11-07-20, 23:58
The Manila Galleon, also called Nao de China, was the name by which the Spanish ships that crossed the Pacific Ocean once or twice a year between Manila (Philippines) and the ports of New Spain in America, mainly Acapulco, were known. Bahía de Banderas (Nayarit), San Blas (Nayarit) and Cabo San Lucas (Baja California Sur). The name of the galleon varied according to the destination city.

The service was opened in 1565 by the Spanish sailor and friar Andrés de Urdaneta, after discovering the tornaviaje or route back to New Spain through the Pacific Ocean, thanks to the east-facing Kuroshio current

The other great Spanish trade route was that of the Fleet of the Indies that crossed the Atlantic Ocean between Veracruz, Cartagena de Indias, Portobelo, Havana and Seville or Cádiz. Part of the eastern merchandise of the Manila Galleon landed in Acapulco were in turn transported by land to Veracruz, where they embarked in the Indian fleets bound for Spain. For this reason, the ships that sailed from Veracruz were loaded with merchandise from the East from the commercial centers of the Philippines, plus the precious metals and natural resources of Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gale%C3%B3n_de_Manila


I see "dulce de leche" and its expansion in this context and moment I could not tell you why, but on this specific occasion I am convinced by this version

Lets agree to disagree. I have a friend who did some more research and found that historian doesn't really have any evidence. There is nothing like dulce de leche in those cuisines and the similar products all have Spanish names.

Carlos
12-07-20, 08:17
Lets agree to disagree. I have a friend who did some more research and found that historian doesn't really have any evidence. There is nothing like dulce de leche in those cuisines and the similar products all have Spanish names.

We have the fried milk that apparently is clear that it is of Spanish origin.

https://www.annarecetasfaciles.com/files/img_8891.jpg

ratchet_fan
12-07-20, 23:03
I've had that before. It's good.

Angela
13-07-20, 01:16
I have no idea who we got it from, if anyone, but we do that as well; it's excellent.

Latte dolce fritto alla ligure.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/-lq4cCEhq8OU/UJ_vvf36MeI/AAAAAAAACY8/U5gpRX-pK1o/lattefritto_thumb%25255B2%25255D.jpg?imgmax=800

Our legend is that Spanish Jews expelled from Spain brought it during their wanderings, along with our sweet rice torta.

http://blog.giallozafferano.it/sissiincucina/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Corretta-e-ritagliata-fetta.jpg

Another version:
https://blog.giallozafferano.it/allacciateilgrembiule/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/torta-di-riso-dolcefb.jpg

In the lunigiana we add more eggs and the method is a little different, so it's dryer.

https://i1.wp.com/www.piccolericette.net/piccolericette/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/3076_Torta.jpg?resize=895%2C616&ssl=1

I wonder if they actually do anything like this in Spain.

ratchet_fan
13-07-20, 01:27
That looks delicious. It seems simple enough to have been invented in multiple places.

I've never had that sweet rice torta but looks great too.

Carlos
13-07-20, 01:52
1 liter of milk, 5 eggs, 3 yolks, 180 gr. sugar, 100 gr. cornstarch, 1/2 lemon zest, 1/2 cinnamon stick, 1/4 vanilla bean. For the batter: Flour, egg and sunflower oil.

There is the simplest way to do it or with eggs and lemon zest as in this recipe from ABC de Sevilla

https://sevilla.abc.es/gurme/recetas/leche-frita/

I remember that my maternal grandmother made fried milk because she talked to her as an adult, since she was not a traditional grandmother and the children did not like it.


I really do not know how Andalusians see us from abroad if there are many topics or not but I have never seen people colder than my family, both maternal and paternal and yet there are other families in the town who are like clans are considered family even if they are third, fourth, or fifth cousins but not mine, they behave as if they were strangers.


I once did but I think I did the simpler version.


They are not dishes that are being made continuously and sometimes even one forgets them since at present we do not need as many calories and perhaps they are remembered at festive times, especially Easter or Christmas.

italouruguayan
13-07-20, 02:05
Hey, wait a minute!
I always heard that the origin of dulce de leche was disputed by Argentines and Uruguayans !! ... :)
Dulce de leche is intimately linked to our culture.
In fact, my breakfast today consisted of coffee with milk and two toasts with dulce de leche ...

Duarte
13-07-20, 02:19
Here in Minas Gerais we produce a delicious coffee flavored milk sweet (doce de leite or dulce de leche). It is not exported. It is just for local consumption. It is a sweet with the purest Arabica coffee from southwest Minas Gerais. It is an organic product from Minas Gerais that I am now tasting.

https://i.imgur.com/x9rlLLc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/iBt5cYT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/I2bLP60.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/aXugsR6.jpg

ratchet_fan
13-07-20, 03:44
Hey, wait a minute!
I always heard that the origin of dulce de leche was disputed by Argentines and Uruguayans !! ... :)
Dulce de leche is intimately linked to our culture.
In fact, my breakfast today consisted of coffee with milk and two toasts with dulce de leche ...

Given that Normandy, Norway and Russia have their own versions and condensed milk was invented in France (and others are saying its Indonesian) its probably an old world product (probably European imo). I just wish we could figure out the true origins.

I love dulce de leche. The Uruguayan bakery near me makes the best donuts and alfajores with it.

Carlos
13-07-20, 13:26
Given that Normandy, Norway and Russia have their own versions and condensed milk was invented in France (and others are saying its Indonesian) its probably an old world product (probably European imo). I just wish we could figure out the true origins.

I love dulce de leche. The Uruguayan bakery near me makes the best donuts and alfajores with it.

Right now I do not remember if I have tried the dulce de leche, it reminds me of Solano caramels and condensed milk is mine; even if a Frenchman invented it.

Carlos
13-07-20, 13:35
Fried milk and other desserts such as Custard are the most sporadic consumption in my house with a long period of time between one elaboration and another.. The most common desserts are flan and custard and yogurt.

http://www.annarecetasfaciles.com/files/flan-de-huevo-3aa-815x458.jpg


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/Bowl_of_natillas_at_Madrid.jpg/368px-Bowl_of_natillas_at_Madrid.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Turkish_strained_yogurt.jpg/800px-Turkish_strained_yogurt.jpg

The flan and the custard were the desserts that my mother had as usual and made in a homemade way, the yogurt we bought, all the other very sporadic desserts.

italouruguayan
14-07-20, 01:20
Given that Normandy, Norway and Russia have their own versions and condensed milk was invented in France (and others are saying its Indonesian) its probably an old world product (probably European imo). I just wish we could figure out the true origins.

I love dulce de leche. The Uruguayan bakery near me makes the best donuts and alfajores with it.


Uruguayans are very few (approximately three and a half million) ... but we are distributed everywhere ... :)

italouruguayan
14-07-20, 01:25
Fried milk and other desserts such as Custard are the most sporadic consumption in my house with a long period of time between one elaboration and another.. The most common desserts are flan and custard and yogurt.

http://www.annarecetasfaciles.com/files/flan-de-huevo-3aa-815x458.jpg


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/Bowl_of_natillas_at_Madrid.jpg/368px-Bowl_of_natillas_at_Madrid.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Turkish_strained_yogurt.jpg/800px-Turkish_strained_yogurt.jpg

The flan and the custard were the desserts that my mother had as usual and made in a homemade way, the yogurt we bought, all the other very sporadic desserts.

OMG!...look at this flan!!!

ratchet_fan
14-07-20, 23:03
The flan looks good but I think there are better deserts from the area.

On a related note why does wikipedia say that torrone/turon is derived from a Central Asian nougat dish? There doesn't seem to be any evidence for that. Are people lying to try to take credit for European dishes now? I actually read some idiots arguing that the majority of European scientists, inventors, chefs, architects, writers and painters hall had some East Asian or SSA ancestry as those components make you more creative. Their evidence was that Pushkin was 1/8 SSA so everybody else might have been too. This attack on European culture is real. Just a bunch of nonsense.

Ailchu
15-07-20, 14:42
The flan looks good but I think there are better deserts from the area.

On a related note why does wikipedia say that torrone/turon is derived from a Central Asian nougat dish? There doesn't seem to be any evidence for that. Are people lying to try to take credit for European dishes now? I actually read some idiots arguing that the majority of European scientists, inventors, chefs, architects, writers and painters hall had some East Asian or SSA ancestry as those components make you more creative. Their evidence was that Pushkin was 1/8 SSA so everybody else might have been too. This attack on European culture is real. Just a bunch of nonsense.

it's a very, very small phenomenon it seems because i almost never heard something like this. however what i can tell you is, that many of those european scientists had jewish roots. is that also an attack on european culture? because from what i've read in the other thread i'm not sure if you people would consider those jews as europeans.

Angela
15-07-20, 16:34
Both of you, enough.

This constant discussion of whether people are taking credit for other people's food or music or whatever is getting old and it just causes needless controversy.

Some things are so simple they probably were invented independently many times around the world. Sometimes ideas travel along trade routes. I think that's great; that's how we learn from one another and improve one's lives.

What difference does it make?

If it's true that we owe our sweet rice torta to the poor Jews kicked out of al Andalus then I'm grateful. I'm also grateful for the oranges and other foodstuffs introduced into Sicily by the Saracens.

"Muslim settlers introduced Italy to the durum wheat they could use for pasta, to rice for risotto, and to sugarcane for dolci. Citrus fruit, spinach, chickpeas, artichokes, and sesame seeds—all of them, plus eggplants for caponata and myriad other ingredients, were brought to Sicily from North Africa."

For the America's it's called the Columbian Exchange. Surely you learned about it in school.

https://learnodo-newtonic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Columbian-Exchange-Chart.jpg

Ailchu
15-07-20, 19:46
Both of you, enough.

This constant discussion of whether people are taking credit for other people's food or music or whatever is getting old and it just causes needless controversy.




do you mean me? i wrote just one comment after reading comment after comment about those afrocentrists, which are an extremely small group compared to other way more dangerous groups, or if certain influences are from europe or not. and so i asked him a legitimate question i think because it is undeniable that many people which he probably does not consider to be european contributed a lot to european society no matter if pasta is chinese or italian or greek.
and it certainly isn't swiss or english so in those regions it's a foreign influence anyway noone cares about the real origin just because it could make the food come from elsewhere or not.

ratchet_fan
15-07-20, 21:46
I'll drop it.

HenryGrayson
07-10-20, 14:44
difficult, did not know it

Carlos
07-10-20, 17:26
The first rural Islamic necropolis in Navarra

https://www.noticiasdenavarra.com/navarra/tudela-y-ribera/2020/10/05/primera-necropolis-islamica-rural-navarra/1083751.html?fbclid=IwAR3kRQ5_mwvGcB3rbJs0b2lTPxw9 I2NVla7vUGCeMRHr0Sb7_7LU8i8IKkI

https://fotos01.noticiasdenavarra.com/2020/10/05/690x278/primera-necropolis-1.jpg


Around 60 graves have been found in the 2019 excavations in Gayarre and Príncipe de Viana de Ribaforada streets in the Maqbara of this riverside town, the first in all of Navarra that has been found in rural areas, since until now they had been found in Tudela (Andalusí necropolis of Herrerias and Mudejar of Torre Monreal) and in Pamplona (Andalusí necropolis of Plaza del Castillo).

Carbon 14 tests would have to be done to determine whether they belong to the Andalusí period (8th-11th centuries) or Mudejar (12th-16th centuries)



The skeleton on the table must be a reproduction, I don't know if it will be made to scale because that head and structure are huge.