PDA

View Full Version : the origin of al Andalus



martin chaide
20-01-20, 18:08
The best sample of ancient andalusian genetic are the autosomes of 37 individuals from southeast Spain, three from 200 – 400 CE (purple stars), 11 from 400-800 CE (blue stars) and 23 Muslims (green stars) that lived between 1000-1600 CE, adding up 814 autosomes, a number high enough to present a low statistical variance.

The analyses showed that the old Andalusians had a bigger african admixture than the modern iberian population, being their genetics similar in the antiquity and in the middle ages. This indicates that the moorish presence in Spain precede the Islamic conquest, possibly being of roman or punic origin (in the iron age the Iberian genetics is almost 100% western European)

In fact, if you translate the ancient Andalusians individuals from the figure number two in the article:

11760

to the figure beneath you can see clearly than the sephardic Jews (3), that originates in the same region than the Punics (4), are closer to the old Andalusians (1) than the Moroccan Berbers are (6)

11759

Sephardic Jews are not pure, they are mixed with the population (jew or not) of the countries they settled in when expelled from Spain, mostly territories of the Ottoman empire. It can be seen than the sephardic Jews (3) are in the middle way between the Lebanese, Greeks and and Turks (5) and the ancient Andalusians(1). If the modern Sephardics are in the middle way, the simplest mathematics tell us that the original sepharadim should be very close to the old andalusians.


This is not surprising as both, spanish Muslims and Jews, lived in the same territory in the same epoch, and the most probable is that they shared a common origin: the old Punics or Carthaginians. In fact, in XVI century Spain it was believed that the african moors originated in Phoenicia. Those pagan Phoenicians (or Canaanim, as they called themselves), become Jews, then Muslim and finally many of them become catholic Christians.

this is coherent with the book by Paul Wexler former professor of Linguistics at Tel-Aviv University. He argued that the sepharadin had an important berber and arab substrat and based his hypotesis in linguistic, but not in genetics.


Source: The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years.

Carlos
20-01-20, 23:47
Water passed does not move mill

Ygorcs
21-01-20, 03:55
The best sample of ancient andalusian genetic are the autosomes of 37 individuals from southeast Spain, three from 200 – 400 CE (purple stars), 11 from 400-800 CE (blue stars) and 23 Muslims (green stars) that lived between 1000-1600 CE, adding up 814 autosomes, a number high enough to present a low statistical variance.

The analyses showed that the old Andalusians had a bigger african admixture than the modern iberian population, being their genetics similar in the antiquity and in the middle ages. This indicates that the moorish presence in Spain precede the Islamic conquest, possibly being of roman or punic origin (in the iron age the Iberian genetics is almost 100% western European)

In fact, if you translate the ancient Andalusians individuals from the figure number two in the article:

11760

to the figure beneath you can see clearly than the sephardic Jews (3), that originates in the same region than the Punics (4), are closer to the old Andalusians (1) than the Moroccan Berbers are (6)

11759

Sephardic Jews are not pure, they are mixed with the population (jew or not) of the countries they settled in when expelled from Spain, mostly territories of the Ottoman empire. It can be seen than the sephardic Jews (3) are in the middle way between the Lebanese, Greeks and and Turks (5) and the ancient Andalusians(1). If the modern Sephardics are in the middle way, the simplest mathematics tell us that the original sepharadim should be very close to the old andalusians.


This is not surprising as both, spanish Muslims and Jews, lived in the same territory in the same epoch, and the most probable is that they shared a common origin: the old Punics or Carthaginians. In fact, in XVI century Spain it was believed that the african moors originated in Phoenicia. Those pagan Phoenicians (or Canaanim, as they called themselves), become Jews, then Muslim and finally many of them become catholic Christians.

this is coherent with the book by Paul Wexler former professor of Linguistics at Tel-Aviv University. He argued that the sepharadin had an important berber and arab substrat and based his hypotesis in linguistic, but not in genetics.


Source: The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years.




Interesting analysis, most of it sounds plausible enough to be further investigated. I only have one major doubt: is there any historical evidence of a large-scale conversion of Punic people or Roman Africans (considering that the core of Roman Africa was what was Punic territory before) to Judaism to justify the existence of Punic-like Proto-Sephardim in the Maghreb and later in Iberia? Couldn't it be just that Judaeans and Phoenicians were so similar genetically that a mix of ancient Jews with some Europeans and North Africans (and Punic-descended ones, too) would be similar to Punic people already living in North Africa before?

martin chaide
21-01-20, 08:49
Interesting analysis, most of it sounds plausible enough to be further investigated. I only have one major doubt: is there any historical evidence of a large-scale conversion of Punic people or Roman Africans (considering that the core of Roman Africa was what was Punic territory before) to Judaism to justify the existence of Punic-like Proto-Sephardim in the Maghreb and later in Iberia? Couldn't it be just that Judaeans and Phoenicians were so similar genetically that a mix of ancient Jews with some Europeans and North Africans (and Punic-descended ones, too) would be similar to Punic people already living in North Africa before?

thank you. of course it could be, but if you forget religion and think just on genetics, that doesn't make a big difference.

As you say it diserves further investigation. The only thing i did was overlap two graphs and look at the result. I have my own theories about christianity but i do not want to contaminate the forum with fringe theories.

Carlos
23-01-20, 02:34
Let's see what's in this sample of Al-Andalus

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RwP_Ja35Hl0/XijxNux0CJI/AAAAAAAACeo/lIhHUDa97rQPalhuBUCzODVLYrrUpKGEgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PortugueseCordobaCaliphate%2528I12514%2529Breakdow n.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-874Wl1Xoazg/XijxKN-78GI/AAAAAAAACek/SktyaeaqfN0VrtgT_K1WcGupg7VNi3yKwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PortugueseCordobaCaliphate%2528I12514%2529.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-soIwTUTGidw/XijxQb8YpBI/AAAAAAAACes/Oh-kcaFpwG8BilqVS8V8EQJ4FaJG3UqKACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PortugueseCordobaCaliphate%2528I12514%2529PLUS.JPE G

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8Z2Y9wKTBi8/XijyL1ff_rI/AAAAAAAACfA/fMDQaWAyX8UL5jNvBCck15Vf9ODeukmewCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PortugueseCordobaCaliphate%2528I12514%2529E.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-v__2-PkQu5s/XijyPA7TmlI/AAAAAAAACfE/YIiWIHA6OFIXdLpy-UvPYb9WHF1S9Q_vACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PortugueseCordobaCaliphate%2528I12514%2529J.JPEG


https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JPcH53fY1RI/Xij2GAlAtvI/AAAAAAAACfU/_eaC-TNwGnI-HuZ8VNZtyt8rtbgLCZHCwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PortugueseCordobaCaliphate%2528I12514%2529PCAmoder n.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ueqlibTiZD4/Xij36x6OS-I/AAAAAAAACfo/FqGzg04YX7cwLfcNTBbeTR5PCBP8Z0cuwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PortugueseCordobaCaliphate%2528I12514%2529PCAancie nt.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qh9r5B9ybsg/Xij2w-wm6CI/AAAAAAAACfc/CjgDgVe3cMsSfZWVGOyjN2lm-AK5PE8XACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PortugueseCordobaCaliphate%2528I12514%2529MapeDeep Dive.JPEG

As I see that you like Al-Andalus so much here you have both material to write a book. At the moment you cannot create other kits

martin chaide
23-01-20, 14:49
ty very much!

Carlos
24-01-20, 15:58
ty very much!

¿De qué provincia española eres?
Where are you from, what Spanish province?