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View Full Version : Where do Medieval Italian samples from Antonio et al. 2019 come from?



Maciamo
24-01-20, 11:50
Using the Dodecad K12b data provided by Jovialis's Ancient Rome Test v1.0 (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39706-Ancient-Rome-Test-V1-0), I ran each Medieval sample separately against modern populations. As Angela pointed out, many of the skeletons from the Latium region that were tested may have been pilgrims from other parts of Italy or Europe. This should provide better insight for the personal matches of anyone who uses the genetic distance calculator. I have listed the samples by burial location.

Palazzo della Cancelleria, central Rome (771-1411 calCE)

Those samples are very heterogeneous in origin and none seem to be local. R1219 looks Austrian, R1220 may come from Southeast France or the Alps, R1221 and R1224 from Aosta Valley, R1283 from the Marche, R1285 and R1287 from Corsica, Tuscany or Romagna, R1285 and R1286 from Germany, R1288 might be from modern Belgium, and R1289 from northern Spain.



Distance to:
R1219_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


8.84970056
German


10.01800878
Bosnian


10.13850088
Hungarians


11.50648513
Mixed_Germanic





Distance to:
R1220_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


8.04748586
Italy_Aosta_Valley


9.75453536
Italy_Trentino


10.13612352
French


10.41686613
French


10.79907015
Italy_FriuliVG





Distance to:
R1221_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


4.64912579
Italy_Aosta_Valley


6.95658106
Italy_Trentino


7.90496758
Swiss_Italian


8.53031893
Italy_Piedmont


8.58839543
Italy_FriuliVG





Distance to:
R1224_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


4.24054059
Italy_Aosta_Valley


7.26176700
Italy_Trentino


8.26022472
Swiss_Italian


9.49466166
French


9.70334478
French





Distance to:
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


2.87198851
Italy_Marche


4.18285716
Italy_Lazio


4.48059148
Italy_Romagna


6.91392002
Italy_Tuscany





Distance to:
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


4.95855987
France_Corsica


5.72900515
Italy_Romagna


5.73295543
Italy_Marche


6.52601027
Italy_Tuscany





Distance to:
R1286_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


3.95170849
German


5.49035518
Mixed_Germanic


6.10737259
Dutch





Distance to:
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


4.49812139
France_Corsica


4.96607873
Italy_Marche


5.31727374
Italy_Romagna


6.44594865
Italy_Lazio


6.54767058
Italy_Tuscany





Distance to:
R1288_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


8.79032991
Mixed_Germanic


9.14831132
French


9.25266988
German


9.48304276
French


9.75376338
Dutch





Distance to:
R1289_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


5.07975393
Galicia


5.33575674
Baleares


6.34399716
Cataluna


6.67958831
Extremadura


7.09184743
Spaniards



Villa Magna (820-1430 CE) in Anagni (Frosinone)

In contrast to the Cancelleria, most samples here appear to be local or South Italian. The exceptions are R55 and R61 (both North Italian), R62 (French/Belgian), and R63 (Spanish).



Distance to:
R52___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.92471681
Italy_Abruzzo


4.93031297
Italy_Campania


6.18603791
Italy_Sicily


6.22434237
Italy_Marche





Distance to:
R53___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


3.15041274
Italy_Calabria


3.51527325
Italy_Campania


4.07746796
Italy_Sicily


4.36937066
Greek_Crete





Distance to:
R54___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


2.52721698
Italy_Abruzzo


2.61053788
Italy_Apulia


3.75606789
Italy_Campania


3.91256502
Italy_Sicily





Distance to:
R55___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


2.29520807
Italy_Piedmont


2.87308736
Italy_Veneto


2.87533233
Italy_FriuliVG


4.77416171
Italy_Trentino





Distance to:
R56___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


2.25696832
Italy_Campania


3.44506251
Italy_Abruzzo


3.51524181
Italy_Sicily


4.83193995
Italy_Calabria





Distance to:
R57___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


10.70661252
Italy_Abruzzo


11.03871677
Italy_Apulia


11.78143879
Greek


11.98106694
Italy_Sicily


11.99134796
Italy_Campania





Distance to:
R58___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


3.41588144
Italy_Campania


4.75263800
Italy_Apulia


4.96906024
Italy_Abruzzo


5.34821138
Italy_Sicily


5.46218015
Italy_Calabria





Distance to:
R59___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


3.72085286
Italy_Campania


4.38579362
Italy_Abruzzo


4.68549549
Italy_Apulia


5.05756513
Italy_Sicily





Distance to:
R60___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.05517053
Italy_Apulia


4.43348482
Italy_Abruzzo


5.18685107
Italy_Lazio


6.09799295
Italy_Marche





Distance to:
R61___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


6.24222877
Italy_Trentino


6.74439441
Italy_FriuliVG


6.96378579
Swiss_Italian


7.79813033
Italy_Aosta_Valley





Distance to:
R62___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


8.76040524
French


8.84359655
Mixed_Germanic


9.22279784
French


10.40246125
German


10.65894929
Dutch





Distance to:
R63___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.79568805
Galicia


6.83400322
Baleares


7.74857406
Extremadura


7.75888523
Portuguese





Distance to:
R64___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


3.94673853
Italy_Sicily


4.12297053
Italy_Campania


4.22461876
Italy_Abruzzo


4.40196184
Italy_Apulia





Distance to:
R65___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


1.57936886
Italy_Campania


3.26591345
Italy_Calabria


3.46294744
Italy_Sicily


4.43626867
Italy_Abruzzo


4.94872186
Italy_Apulia





Distance to:
R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


3.11799546
Italy_Abruzzo


3.66645142
Italy_Campania


4.80833734
Italy_Apulia


5.40362887
Italy_Sicily




Tivoli Palazzo Cianti(1600-1700 CE)

All samples appear to be relatively local.



Distance to:
R969__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


4.00665172
Italy_Marche


4.09387954
Italy_Abruzzo


4.14478033
Italy_Lazio


5.55050881
Italy_Apulia





Distance to:
R970__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


5.45594025
Italy_Lazio


5.66019272
Italy_Abruzzo


6.13176304
Italy_Marche


6.92250590
Italy_Apulia





Distance to:
R973__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


1.58242335
Italy_Abruzzo


2.75668750
Italy_Campania


3.45154284
Italy_Apulia


3.51985014
Italy_Sicily

Maciamo
24-01-20, 11:55
Here are now the samples for the Late Antiquity.


Mausoleum of Augustus, Rome (300-700 CE)

Very mixed. One German, one North Italian, one Calabrian, one Sicilian and one Jew.



Distance to:
R30___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


3.97577175
Italy_Calabria


6.01773213
Sephardic_Jews


6.37718943
Italy_Sicily


6.43644203
Italy_Campania


6.67999251
Greek_Crete





Distance to:
R31___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


5.19241755
German


5.93676680
Mixed_Germanic


6.03682036
Dutch





Distance to:
R32___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


6.19178205
Italy_Sicily


6.71056525
Italy_Campania


6.96393062
Italy_Abruzzo


7.22982165
Italy_Calabria





Distance to:
R33___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


2.98170029
Italy_Veneto


4.01654299
Italy_Lombardy


4.11704240
Italy_Piedmont


4.61137897
Italy_FriuliVG


4.63166321
Italy_Liguria


5.08936268
Swiss_Italian





Distance to:
R34___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


4.68439964
Sephardic_Jews


5.40817899
Greek_Crete


7.04337791
Italy_Calabria


7.63757160
Ashkenazy_Jews




Crypta Balbi, Rome (400-600 CE)

Four out of seven samples are North Italians. One appears West German or Belgian. One from Abruzzo/Campania. R104 doesn't match any modern population but is closest to population with high European Neolithic Farmer ancestry.



Distance to:
R104__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


13.32309273
Sardinian


17.44959025
Andalucia


18.88248924
Murcia





Distance to:
R105__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


5.18126337
Italy_Piedmont


5.85537531
Italy_Trentino


6.00541827
Italy_Aosta_Valley


6.03021194
Italy_FriuliVG


6.03941873
Italy_Veneto





Distance to:
R106__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


9.86028397
Mixed_Germanic


10.24173813
German


11.79750821
Dutch


11.91622004
French





Distance to:
R107__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


5.46984823
Italy_Abruzzo


5.80777978
Italy_Campania


6.29398824
Italy_Apulia


6.79053054
Italy_Sicily





Distance to:
R108__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


7.17376279
Italy_Aosta_Valley


7.44007124
Italy_Trentino


8.15129536
Italy_FriuliVG


9.07077794
Swiss_Italian





Distance to:
R109__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


4.83398785
Italy_Aosta_Valley


6.22388243
Swiss_Italian


6.50759556
Italy_Trentino


8.28935716
Italy_Piedmont





Distance to:
R110__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


5.16933976
Italy_Lombardy


5.22525239
Swiss_Italian


5.84723782
Italy_Piedmont


6.07875337
Italy_Aosta_Valley


6.56645110
Italy_Trentino




Celio, Rome (400-600 CE)

One local from Lazio and one South Italian.



Distance to:
R35___Late_Antiquity_Celio


2.78705669
Italy_Sicily


3.25545174
Italy_Campania


4.33982864
Italy_Calabria


4.38907504
Italy_Abruzzo





Distance to:
R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio


2.67098933
Italy_Lazio


2.88050343
Italy_Romagna


3.12280611
Italy_Marche



S. Ercolano Necropolis, Ostia (400-600 CE)

All from Lazio, Marche, Abruzzo or Campania.



Distance to:
R117__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


4.56126364
Italy_Campania


5.08336945
Italy_Sicily


5.09341415
Italy_Abruzzo


6.27776433
Italy_Calabria





Distance to:
R118__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


5.05516350
Italy_Marche


6.39966984
Italy_Lazio


7.09165002
Italy_Romagna





Distance to:
R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


2.72502807
Italy_Marche


3.86621831
Italy_Lazio


4.25041174
Italy_Romagna





Distance to:
R121__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


3.87610681
Italy_Lazio


3.97489115
Italy_Abruzzo


4.50175943
Italy_Marche


5.13760917
Italy_Apulia





Distance to:
R122__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


2.95552127
Italy_Campania


3.40354781
Italy_Abruzzo


3.44436133
Italy_Sicily


5.26539754
Italy_Calabria

Angela
24-01-20, 15:03
All of the samples to which I get reasonable hits are the ones which could be labeled Central Italian(possibly mostly "local") or Northern Italian, so it all makes sense.



Distance to:
Angela


6.16793320
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


6.20598904
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


6.88215809
R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


9.01179227
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


9.10498215
R1016_Iron_Age_____Castel_di_Decima


9.25520934
R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


9.40529638
R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio


9.46954592
R33___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


9.61917356
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


9.80181106
R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


9.85873217
R110__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


10.29759195
R118__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


10.76144972
R474__Iron_Age_____Civitavecchia


10.89582948
R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica


10.91793937
R473__Iron_Age_____Civitavecchia


11.16737659
R55___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


11.21531542
R113__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


12.66933700
R52___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


12.94033230
R969__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


13.02701424
R835__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche


13.18377791
R851__Iron_Age_____Ardea


13.22393663
R105__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


13.23101281
R970__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


13.78290245
R121__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


13.98591792
R836__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche



The rest are probably merchants, pilgrims or other travelers.

Salento
24-01-20, 15:59
I’m more Medieval than Modern:



Distance to:
LUPIAE


2.49000000
R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


2.78107893
R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


3.39329162
Italy_Apulia




Rs Top 10


Distance to:
LUPIAE


2.49000000
R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


2.78107893
R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.62665106
R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.66386106
R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.74364838
R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


4.88130106
R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


4.90240757
R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.04985148
R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis


5.10057840
R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.45748110
R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio

torzio
24-01-20, 18:07
@Maciano

For your records, if you want

below is the R1 sample protoVillovan ..................female
born Nis Liburnia and died in Picene lands ( Marche )

using your method




Distance to:
R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


3.19263925
Italy_Veneto


4.59394558
Italy_FriuliVG


4.79243154
Italy_Piedmont


5.36235312
Italy_Emilia


5.41730100
Italy_Liguria


5.48928753
Italy_Lombardy


6.14541374
Italy_Tuscany


6.75545261
Italy_Trentino


6.93031835
Swiss_Italian


7.40857611
Italy_Romagna


10.03419075
Italy_Lazio


10.25871769
Italy_Aosta_Valley


10.51680265
Italy_Marche


10.77139620
France_Corsica


15.87357841
Italy_Abruzzo


16.98590263
Italy_Apulia


18.81695528
Italy_Campania


19.20153028
Italy_Sicily


22.17265551
Italy_Calabria




interesting is

Target: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
Distance: 2.4220% / 2.42202404 | ADC: 0.5x



92.4
Italy_Veneto






7.6
Italy_Apulia




Target: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
Distance: 2.2913% / 2.29129837 | ADC: 0.25x




84.8
Italy_Veneto






10.6
Italy_Apulia






4.6
Italy_FriuliVG




Target: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
Distance: 2.2777% / 2.27773577




79.6
Italy_Veneto






11.8
Italy_Apulia






8.6
Italy_FriuliVG






It would mean that the Apulian "illyrians" came to Apulia ( landing firstly in Foggia lands ) via what Italian scholars state, from the Iapodes Illyrians that lived next to Liburnians ( most likely shipped by Liburnian navy which was the only fleet from modern Corfu to Trieste in the early iron age )

Pax Augusta
24-01-20, 19:04
@Maciano

For your records, if you want

below is the R1 sample protoVillovan ..................female
born Nis Liburnia and died in Picene lands ( Marche )


Where is the evidence that Proto-Villanovan R1 sample was born in "Liburnia"?

Pax Augusta
24-01-20, 19:13
Using the Dodecad K12b data provided by Jovialis's Ancient Rome Test v1.0 (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39706-Ancient-Rome-Test-V1-0), I ran each Medieval sample separately against modern populations. As Angela pointed out, many of the skeletons from the Latium region that were tested may have been pilgrims from other parts of Italy or Europe. This should provide better insight for the personal matches of anyone who uses the genetic distance calculator. I have listed the samples by burial location.

Palazzo della Cancelleria, central Rome (771-1411 calCE)


Rome was the center of Christianity, it is not so strange that there were many foreigners. Not only pilgrims, but also friars, priests, bishops etc. from all over Europe and Italy.

For example, the Palazzo della Cancelleria was part of the Vatican institutions.

torzio
24-01-20, 19:16
Where is the evidence that Proto-Villanovan R1 sample was born in "Liburnia"?
my error, not Nis , but Nin

A Proto-Villanovan female from Martinsicuro in the Adriatic coast (ca. 890 BC), of mtDNA hg. U5a2b, is the earliest mainland sample available showing foreign ancestry:


Martinsicuro is a coastal site located on the border of Le Marche and Abruzzo on central Italy’s Adriatic coast. It is a proto-Villanovan village, situated on a hill above the Tronto river, dating to the late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age (…) finds from the site indicate an affinity with contemporaries in the Balkans, suggesting direct trade contacts and interaction across the Adriatic. In particular, the practice of decorating ceramics with bronze elements was shared between the Nin region in Croatia and Picene region of Italy, including Martinsicuro.
The sample clusters very close to the Early Iron Age sample from Jazinka (ca. 780 BC), from the central Dalmatian onomastic region, on the east Adriatic coast opposite to Marche lands, possibly related to the south-east Dalmatian onomastic region to the south. However, there is no clear boundary between hydrotoponymic regions for the Bronze Age, and it is quite close to the (possibly Venetic-related) Liburnian onomastic region to the north, so the accounts of Martinsicuro belonging to the Liburni in proto-historical times can probably be extrapolated to the Final Bronze Age.

Pax Augusta
24-01-20, 19:42
my error, not Nis , but Nin

A Proto-Villanovan female from Martinsicuro in the Adriatic coast (ca. 890 BC), of mtDNA hg. U5a2b, is the earliest mainland sample available showing foreign ancestry:
Martinsicuro is a coastal site located on the border of Le Marche and Abruzzo on central Italy’s Adriatic coast. It is a proto-Villanovan village, situated on a hill above the Tronto river, dating to the late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age (…) finds from the site indicate an affinity with contemporaries in the Balkans, suggesting direct trade contacts and interaction across the Adriatic. In particular, the practice of decorating ceramics with bronze elements was shared between the Nin region in Croatia and Picene region of Italy, including Martinsicuro.

The sample clusters very close to the Early Iron Age sample from Jazinka (ca. 780 BC), from the central Dalmatian onomastic region, on the east Adriatic coast opposite to Marche lands, possibly related to the south-east Dalmatian onomastic region to the south. However, there is no clear boundary between hydrotoponymic regions for the Bronze Age, and it is quite close to the (possibly Venetic-related) Liburnian onomastic region to the north, so the accounts of Martinsicuro belonging to the Liburni in proto-historical times can probably be extrapolated to the Final Bronze Age.


Where did the text you posted come from? The text comes from blogger Carl Quilles, who is not an academic scholar but at most he can be considered a hobbyist. According to his own biography, he has no university background in this subject. So, no evidence.


This is the original text and it doesn't mention any birth of R1 in the Balkans. The text speaks of an affinity in material culture suggesting trade, interaction and contacts, which is a well-known fact.

https://i.imgur.com/0kBaNE8.png

torzio
24-01-20, 21:24
Where did the text you posted come from? The text comes from blogger Carl Quilles, who is not an academic scholar but at most he can be considered a hobbyist. According to his own biography, he has no university background in this subject. So, no evidence.


This is the original text and it doesn't mention any birth of R1 in the Balkans. The text speaks of an affinity in material culture suggesting trade, interaction and contacts, which is a well-known fact.

https://i.imgur.com/0kBaNE8.png

I think it was via sizzi attachment

torzio
24-01-20, 21:30
I think it was via sizzi attachment

on a lap top now
a sizzi thread attachment in italian ..............I got a english version

Do you think all Villanovan sample are only etruscans ?
even when they held Rome for over 200 years and claimed naples from the greeks ..............or even arriving in Adria on the adriatic coast

hope you do not think that only etruscans can have Villanovan or proto-villanovan

Pax Augusta
24-01-20, 21:33
on a lap top now
a sizzi thread attachment in italian ..............I got a english version

Do you think all Villanovan sample are only etruscans ?
even when they held Rome for over 200 years and claimed naples from the greeks ..............or even arriving in Adria on the adriatic coast

Proto-Villanovan R1 is Proto-Picene/Proto-Italic.

Villanovan R1015 is Etruscan.

torzio
24-01-20, 21:56
Proto-Villanovan R1 is Proto-Picene/Proto-Italic.

Villanovan R1015 is Etruscan.






As long as you do not think every Villanovan is not etruscan .................I will check on R1015





Distance to:
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


9.24585840
Italy_Lombardy


10.47190348
Swiss_Italian


10.59439172
France_Corsica


10.67138183
Italy_Liguria


11.32346900
Italy_Piedmont


11.45354578
Italy_Emilia


12.15522425
Italy_Aosta_Valley


12.35516815
Italy_Trentino


12.48426575
Italy_Veneto


12.52109061
Italy_Tuscany


15.14121316
Italy_FriuliVG


15.18462380
Italy_Romagna


17.92780238
Italy_Marche


18.70868739
Italy_Lazio


23.67064439
Italy_Abruzzo


25.60013410
Italy_Campania


26.16214227
Italy_Apulia


26.41047302
Italy_Sicily


28.64339688
Italy_Calabria






Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
Distance: 8.1764% / 8.17643111 | ADC: 0.5x



56.6
France_Corsica






33.6
Italy_Aosta_Valley






9.8
Swiss_Italian




Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
Distance: 8.1328% / 8.13276039 | ADC: 0.25x




57.6
France_Corsica






42.4
Italy_Aosta_Valley




Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
Distance: 8.1324% / 8.13237277




57.0
France_Corsica






43.0
Italy_Aosta_Valley






At best this person is mostly likely a Gallic-Ligurian mix

HYGILI4K
24-01-20, 22:27
My closest match is R110



3.20856666
R110__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


3.99085204
R474__Iron_Age_____Civitavecchia


6.33544000
R105__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


7.06787097
R55___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


7.72353546
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


7.81421781
R33___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


8.08064973
R109__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


8.43316074
R1016_Iron_Age_____Castel_di_Decima


8.48432083
R473__Iron_Age_____Civitavecchia


8.72169708
R63___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


8.97703737
R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


9.39635036
R1021_Iron_Age_____Boville_Ernica


9.42583683
R1221_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


10.31083411
R851__Iron_Age_____Ardea


10.42913707
R1289_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


10.55089570
R435__Iron_Age_____Palestrina_Colombella


10.67592619
R1224_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


11.06633634
R61___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


12.32318546
R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio


12.76021160
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


12.80834103
R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


13.01039584
R108__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


13.18746754
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


13.89386195
R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


14.11668871
R1220_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria

Pax Augusta
24-01-20, 22:58
As long as you do not think every Villanovan is not etruscan .................I will check on R1015At best this person is mostly likely a Gallic-Ligurian mix


It's not so difficult to understand, Torzio. Trust me. Is Villanovan R1015 at best a Gallic-Ligurian mix? You're so funny. So are you suggesting that in 900 B.C. in Veio, a well-known Etruscan city in southern Etruria, lived both Gauls and Ligurians? There is always something new to learn.


Proto-Villanovan culture is a Bronze Age culture, Villanovan is an Iron Age culture. They are called similarly because the Villanovan culture was discovered earlier than the Proto-Villanovan culture by two different archeologists. Although they have kept these names, further distinctions have been made in recent years by archaeologists, because there's a huge difference between the two. The Villanovan culture is the most ancient phase of the Etruscan civilization, while the proto-Villanovan culture is a supranational bronze culture not only ancestral to the Etruscans.

Angela
24-01-20, 23:25
As long as you do not think every Villanovan is not etruscan .................I will check on R1015





Distance to:
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


9.24585840
Italy_Lombardy


10.47190348
Swiss_Italian


10.59439172
France_Corsica


10.67138183
Italy_Liguria


11.32346900
Italy_Piedmont


11.45354578
Italy_Emilia


12.15522425
Italy_Aosta_Valley


12.35516815
Italy_Trentino


12.48426575
Italy_Veneto


12.52109061
Italy_Tuscany


15.14121316
Italy_FriuliVG


15.18462380
Italy_Romagna


17.92780238
Italy_Marche


18.70868739
Italy_Lazio


23.67064439
Italy_Abruzzo


25.60013410
Italy_Campania


26.16214227
Italy_Apulia


26.41047302
Italy_Sicily


28.64339688
Italy_Calabria






Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
Distance: 8.1764% / 8.17643111 | ADC: 0.5x



56.6
France_Corsica






33.6
Italy_Aosta_Valley






9.8
Swiss_Italian




Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
Distance: 8.1328% / 8.13276039 | ADC: 0.25x




57.6
France_Corsica






42.4
Italy_Aosta_Valley




Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
Distance: 8.1324% / 8.13237277




57.0
France_Corsica






43.0
Italy_Aosta_Valley






At best this person is mostly likely a Gallic-Ligurian mix

Stop making up your own idiosyncratic definitions for these samples. Neither is "Sizzi" an unimpeachable source. From what I've read at his site he doesn't even know that the people with one of the largest proportions of Anatolia Neolithic are Northern Italians.

This sample is an Etruscan, buried in an Etruscan context. What is the difficulty here???

The closest MODERN population is Lombards according to K12b, but the area generally might be described as northwestern Italy as should be clear to anyone who looked at the Antonio et al PCA.
https://i.imgur.com/Nlops9w.png
My match with it:



9.61917356
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia



To reiterate for those who have forgotten, these "modern" results are from a list mistakenly claimed to be from an academic paper but actually the product of samples compiled by this "Sizzi".

Results should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

Using the original Dodecad:


Distance to:
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


5.24512154
North_Italian


8.03976368
N_Italian


8.21257572
Baleares


10.85773457
Galicia


11.64063572
Murcia


12.06155048
Extremadura


12.15138675
Andalucia


12.49035628
TSI30


12.74874111
Castilla_Y_Leon


12.84337962
Spaniards


13.02558636
Portuguese


14.29485922
Spanish


14.48704249
Cataluna


14.48716673
Tuscan


14.59809577
Canarias


15.02812031
Castilla_La_Mancha


15.03589040
Valencia


15.10769340
Cantabria


15.97660790
Aragon


16.59626464
O_Italian


17.91761982
C_Italian


20.96794697
French


21.55915815
French


25.93064596
Greek


26.20529908
Sicilian




9.61917356
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia



As usual, the original dodecad result is congruent with the findings of the academic paper, i.e. Etruscans are between Northern Italians and Iberians.

torzio
24-01-20, 23:37
Stop making up your own idiosyncratic definitions for these samples. Neither is "Sizzi" an unimpeachable source. From what I've read at his site he doesn't even know that the people with one of the largest proportions of Anatolia Neolithic are Northern Italians.

This sample is an Etruscan, buried in an Etruscan context. What is the difficulty here???

The closest MODERN population is Lombards according to K12b, but the area generally might be described as northwestern Italy as should be clear to anyone who looked at the Antonio et al PCA.
https://i.imgur.com/Nlops9w.png
My match with it:



9.61917356
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia



To reiterate for those who have forgotten, these "modern" results are from a list mistakenly claimed to be from an academic paper but actually the product of samples compiled by this "Sizzi".

Results should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

Using the original Dodecad:


Distance to:
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


5.24512154
North_Italian


8.03976368
N_Italian


8.21257572
Baleares


10.85773457
Galicia


11.64063572
Murcia


12.06155048
Extremadura


12.15138675
Andalucia


12.49035628
TSI30


12.74874111
Castilla_Y_Leon


12.84337962
Spaniards


13.02558636
Portuguese


14.29485922
Spanish


14.48704249
Cataluna


14.48716673
Tuscan


14.59809577
Canarias


15.02812031
Castilla_La_Mancha


15.03589040
Valencia


15.10769340
Cantabria


15.97660790
Aragon


16.59626464
O_Italian


17.91761982
C_Italian


20.96794697
French


21.55915815
French


25.93064596
Greek


26.20529908
Sicilian




9.61917356
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia



As usual, the original dodecad result is congruent with the findings of the academic paper, i.e. Etruscans are between Northern Italians and Iberians.

to test yout theory

here is R1 with original dodecad



Distance to:
R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


3.19263925
Italy_Veneto


4.59394558
Italy_FriuliVG


4.79243154
Italy_Piedmont


5.36235312
Italy_Emilia


5.41730100
Italy_Liguria


5.48928753
Italy_Lombardy


6.14541374
Italy_Tuscany


6.75545261
Italy_Trentino


6.93031835
Swiss_Italian


7.40857611
Italy_Romagna


7.51609606
Albanian_North


7.76251248
Albanian_Kosovo


10.03419075
Italy_Lazio


10.25871769
Italy_Aosta_Valley


10.51680265
Italy_Marche


10.77139620
France_Corsica


15.04893352
Bulgarians


15.06029880
Romanians


15.41974708
Bulgarian


15.87357841
Italy_Abruzzo


16.83403101
Greek


16.98590263
Italy_Apulia


18.35866553
Baleares


18.81695528
Italy_Campania


19.20153028
Italy_Sicily




similar to the above




92.6
Italy_Veneto
5.2
Albanian_Kosovo
2.2
Albanian_North
Target: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
Distance: 1.7286% / 1.72862196 | ADC: 0.5x
80.8
Italy_Veneto
9.6
Albanian_North
8.4
Albanian_Kosovo
0.6
Italy_Tuscany
0.6
Nganassan
Target: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
Distance: 0.9911% / 0.99106208 | ADC: 0.25x
83.6
Italy_Veneto
10.6
Albanian_North
3.8
Greek



Target: R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
Distance: 3.1926% / 3.19263925 | ADC: 2x



100.0
Italy_Veneto







which is better post #5 or this for sample R1 ?

bigsnake49
24-01-20, 23:49
I’m more Medieval than Modern:



Distance to:
LUPIAE


2.49000000
R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


2.78107893
R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


3.39329162
Italy_Apulia




Rs Top 10


Distance to:
LUPIAE


2.49000000
R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


2.78107893
R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.62665106
R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.66386106
R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.74364838
R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


4.88130106
R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


4.90240757
R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.04985148
R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis


5.10057840
R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.45748110
R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio




Damn Salento go back to your own time and quit messing around with time travel!:grin:

torzio
24-01-20, 23:59
if I leave in the Sardinians, Spanish, french and Albanians ....the results for R1015 are



Distance to:
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


9.24585840
Italy_Lombardy


10.47190348
Swiss_Italian


10.59439172
France_Corsica


10.67138183
Italy_Liguria


11.32346900
Italy_Piedmont


11.45354578
Italy_Emilia


12.15522425
Italy_Aosta_Valley


12.35516815
Italy_Trentino


12.48426575
Italy_Veneto


12.52109061
Italy_Tuscany


12.84337962
Spaniards


14.29485922
Spanish


15.14121316
Italy_FriuliVG


15.18462380
Italy_Romagna


17.92780238
Italy_Marche


18.70868739
Italy_Lazio


20.58547789
Albanian_North


20.71231035
Albanian_Kosovo


20.96794697
French


21.55915815
French


23.67064439
Italy_Abruzzo


25.60013410
Italy_Campania


25.93064596
Greek


26.16214227
Italy_Apulia


26.41047302
Italy_Sicily






Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
Distance: 5.5356% / 5.53559013 | ADC: 1x
51.2
Italy_Lombardy
28.4
Spaniards
20.4
France_Corsica

Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
Distance: 3.8825% / 3.88254771 | ADC: 0.5x

57.0
Italy_Lombardy
23.6
Spaniards
11.0
France_Corsica
8.4
Sardinian

Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
Distance: 2.1920% / 2.19198126 | ADC: 0.25x

67.4
Swiss_Italian
20.6
Sardinian
8.2
France_Corsica
3.8
Spanish

Duarte
25-01-20, 01:07
If these coordinates of modern Italians included in the updated DODECAD K12b spreadsheet were produced by the “Sizzi” that writes in link below, they must be disregarded.

https://ilsizzi.wordpress.com/2015/04/09/il-dna-autosomico-europeo/

The man is a racist. This is his conclusion of the "article" contained in the referred link:

“Le distanze genetiche delimitano popoli, etnie, subrazze e razze, alla faccia di chi continua a ripetere come un disco rotto che le razze non esistono. Pensate anche solo alla biodiversità italiana, dove il gruppo settentrionale è ben distinto sia da quello toscano e centrale che da quello meridionale, soprattutto. Quanto basta per poter parlare di gruppi etnici differenti. Figuratevi se dovessimo parlare di gruppi razziali.”

Racists are sick people who should not be given credibility or a platform to spread their absurd ideas.

torzio
25-01-20, 02:19
It's not so difficult to understand, Torzio. Trust me. Is Villanovan R1015 at best a Gallic-Ligurian mix? You're so funny. So are you suggesting that in 900 B.C. in Veio, a well-known Etruscan city in southern Etruria, lived both Gauls and Ligurians? There is always something new to learn.


Proto-Villanovan culture is a Bronze Age culture, Villanovan is an Iron Age culture. They are called similarly because the Villanovan culture was discovered earlier than the Proto-Villanovan culture by two different archeologists. Although they have kept these names, further distinctions have been made in recent years by archaeologists, because there's a huge difference between the two. The Villanovan culture is the most ancient phase of the Etruscan civilization, while the proto-Villanovan culture is a supranational bronze culture not only ancestral to the Etruscans.

I agree the term gallic-ligurian is a bit young

it should be etruscan and or greek for Corsica at that time ..............unsure when the etruscans kicked the greeks out of corsica and took over their olive groves

using dodecad 12 only markers

and these as the source

Italy_Liguria,5.1,0.05,2.014,0.0922,37.89,23.225,0 .2477,0.053,7.89,0.048,23.39,0
Italy_Emilia,6.13,0,1.15,0.1801,37.614,22.757,0.14 ,0.107,7.396,0.25,24.22,0.055
Italy_Romagna,6.08,0,1.87,0.13,34.66,20.98,0.1,0,8 .99,0,27.19,0
Italy_Tuscany,6.12,0.049,1.21,0.139,36.889,21.811, 0.157,0.055,8.206,0,25.364,0
Italy_Lazio,6.725,0,2.67,0.0525,31.7,19.8175,0.257 5,0.07,9.785,0.1725,28.747,0
Italy_Marche,6.421,0.082,2.38,0.048,32.91,18.72,0. 294,0.267,9.802,0,29.042,0.034
Italy_Abruzzo,7.586,0.0283,3.225,0.0383,29.12,16.1 ,0,0.0783,10.91,0.316,32.598,0
Italy_Campania,7.065,0.086,2.818,0.085,28.905,13.7 27,0.111,0.334,12.32,0.02,34.342,0.111

we find that if that sample was truly central italian and heading into southern italian .............then its a migrant , because the result is beyond 5.000

If you disagree , then dodecad numbers are also in error




Distance to:
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


10.67138183
Italy_Liguria


11.45354578
Italy_Emilia


12.52109061
Italy_Tuscany


15.18462380
Italy_Romagna


17.92780238
Italy_Marche


18.70868739
Italy_Lazio


23.67064439
Italy_Abruzzo


25.60013410
Italy_Campania








Target: R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
Distance: 10.6714% / 10.67138183



100.0
Italy_Liguria

torzio
25-01-20, 02:28
using only these

Italy_Tuscany,6.12,0.049,1.21,0.139,36.889,21.811, 0.157,0.055,8.206,0,25.364,0
Italy_Lazio,6.725,0,2.67,0.0525,31.7,19.8175,0.257 5,0.07,9.785,0.1725,28.747,0
Italy_Marche,6.421,0.082,2.38,0.048,32.91,18.72,0. 294,0.267,9.802,0,29.042,0.034
Italy_Abruzzo,7.586,0.0283,3.225,0.0383,29.12,16.1 ,0,0.0783,10.91,0.316,32.598,0
Italy_Campania,7.065,0.086,2.818,0.085,28.905,13.7 27,0.111,0.334,12.32,0.02,34.342,0.111
Italy_Apulia,7.382,0.32,2.812,0.336,26.188,17.186, 0.274,0.266,11.314,0.412,33.356,0.154
Italy_Sicily,7.313,0.482,4.594,0.101,27.216,13.451 ,0.249,0.653,12.095,0.047,33.163,0.635
Italy_Calabria,7.006,0.1308,4.1825,0.0759,27.005,1 1.44083,0.2616,0.5983,13.52416,0.22,35.4525,0.0975


Again ....although Tuscany .......a number of 12.5 is too far




Distance to:
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


12.52109061
Italy_Tuscany


17.92780238
Italy_Marche


18.70868739
Italy_Lazio


23.67064439
Italy_Abruzzo


25.60013410
Italy_Campania


26.16214227
Italy_Apulia


26.41047302
Italy_Sicily


28.64339688
Italy_Calabria

torzio
25-01-20, 02:29
and for north italy



Distance to:
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


9.24585840
Italy_Lombardy


10.47190348
Swiss_Italian


10.67138183
Italy_Liguria


11.32346900
Italy_Piedmont


11.45354578
Italy_Emilia


12.15522425
Italy_Aosta_Valley


12.35516815
Italy_Trentino


12.48426575
Italy_Veneto


15.14121316
Italy_FriuliVG

Salento
25-01-20, 02:37
@Duarte

I just stopped using it,
and everyone should do the same !!!

Angela
25-01-20, 02:53
If these coordinates of modern Italians included in the updated DODECAD K12b spreadsheet were produced by the “Sizzi” that writes in link below, they must be disregarded.

https://ilsizzi.wordpress.com/2015/04/09/il-dna-autosomico-europeo/

The man is a racist. This is his conclusion of the "article" contained in the referred link:

“Le distanze genetiche delimitano popoli, etnie, subrazze e razze, alla faccia di chi continua a ripetere come un disco rotto che le razze non esistono. Pensate anche solo alla biodiversità italiana, dove il gruppo settentrionale è ben distinto sia da quello toscano e centrale che da quello meridionale, soprattutto. Quanto basta per poter parlare di gruppi etnici differenti. Figuratevi se dovessimo parlare di gruppi razziali.”

Racists are sick people who should not be given credibility or a platform to spread their absurd ideas.

Believing that dna gives us the ability to distinguish people of different "races" or what are now called breeding populations doesn't make you a racist, imo. That's what we're doing every day. Are we all racists then? From the little I know of him I think the term might fit, but not for that reason.

In terms of the samples, when dealing with the work product of anyone with an obvious agenda, it behooves one to be cautious because of the possibility that this bias would lead to distortion of the data. That has been the cause of my hesitancy about some of Eurogenes' results. When it's academic samples and there's some degree of transparency there's less concern.

I don't know the source of those samples, so that's one area of concern; the other concern is whether someone like this is to be trusted choosing samples, if it is indeed his work.

I'm going to go back to using the original Dodecad.

For example, these are my closest Medieval matches:


6.16793320
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


6.20598904
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


These are the closest modern populations according to the original dodecad:


Distance to:
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


3.57624104
Tuscan


3.81152201
TSI30


4.75531282
C_Italian


6.83702421
O_Italian


10.65236593
N_Italian


10.91843395
North_Italian


12.61605723
S_Italian_Sicilian


12.63765010
Sicilian


13.09491886
Greek


16.62573006
Ashkenazi


17.11678124
Ashkenazy_Jews


20.15269461
Sephardic_Jews


20.66370973
Baleares


20.77912173
Morocco_Jews


22.13513723
Bulgarians


22.51428213
Bulgarian


22.57344679
Galicia


22.99541041
Romanians


23.18739097
Extremadura


23.21290374
Murcia


23.62890391
Andalucia


23.71828198
Canarias


23.88277203
Portuguese


25.20537443
Castilla_Y_Leon


25.56972624
Spaniards





Distance to:
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


4.18359893
C_Italian


4.39795407
TSI30


4.67375652
Tuscan


6.63923188
O_Italian


10.89065655
N_Italian


11.33756147
North_Italian


11.94195545
Sicilian


12.25031428
S_Italian_Sicilian


13.05106126
Greek


16.05808830
Ashkenazi


16.61078866
Ashkenazy_Jews


19.42127699
Sephardic_Jews


19.69553757
Morocco_Jews


20.62295323
Baleares


22.06728801
Bulgarians


22.38915362
Bulgarian


22.39324452
Galicia


22.69921144
Canarias


22.83699192
Extremadura


22.95221558
Murcia


22.99935216
Romanians


23.42924455
Portuguese


23.44488430
Andalucia


24.96409822
Castilla_Y_Leon


25.63061061
Spaniards



These are the results using the "updated" list of K12b samples:


Distance to:
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


4.95855987
France_Corsica


5.72900515
Italy_Romagna


5.73295543
Italy_Marche


6.52601027
Italy_Tuscany


7.24070466
Italy_Lazio


7.99930566
Italy_Emilia


8.57943659
Italy_Liguria


10.37018436
Italy_Abruzzo


10.86251230
Italy_Lombardy


11.76210041
Italy_Campania


12.19792774
Italy_Piedmont


12.42161332
Italy_Veneto


12.83907707
Albanian_Kosovo


12.91294962
Italy_Apulia


13.07584127
Italy_Sicily


13.09491886
Greek


13.69630607
Albanian_North


14.63272210
Italy_FriuliVG


14.85030850
Swiss_Italian


14.95477500
Italy_Calabria


15.92765394
Italy_Trentino


16.62573006
Ashkenazi


17.11678124
Ashkenazy_Jews


18.65887850
Italy_Aosta_Valley


18.94861736
Greek_Crete





Distance to:
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


4.49812139
France_Corsica


4.96607873
Italy_Marche


5.31727374
Italy_Romagna


6.44594865
Italy_Lazio


6.54767058
Italy_Tuscany


8.04215637
Italy_Emilia


8.47331258
Italy_Liguria


9.53350878
Italy_Abruzzo


11.02661950
Italy_Lombardy


11.16114448
Italy_Campania


12.10129167
Italy_Piedmont


12.10660832
Italy_Sicily


12.24339201
Italy_Apulia


12.35617683
Italy_Veneto


12.73767640
Albanian_Kosovo


13.05106126
Greek


13.52740552
Albanian_North


14.22096119
Italy_Calabria


14.57645828
Italy_FriuliVG


14.99245018
Swiss_Italian


16.04054675
Italy_Trentino


16.05808830
Ashkenazi


16.61078866
Ashkenazy_Jews


18.48370093
Greek_Crete


18.66171417
Italy_Aosta_Valley



The fits aren't as good using the updated samples, and they don't make as much sense to me for samples all from Rome.

Only problem, of course, is that the original dodecad is missing samples from certain areas.

torzio
25-01-20, 03:21
If these coordinates of modern Italians included in the updated DODECAD K12b spreadsheet were produced by the “Sizzi” that writes in link below, they must be disregarded.

https://ilsizzi.wordpress.com/2015/04/09/il-dna-autosomico-europeo/

The man is a racist. This is his conclusion of the "article" contained in the referred link:

“Le distanze genetiche delimitano popoli, etnie, subrazze e razze, alla faccia di chi continua a ripetere come un disco rotto che le razze non esistono. Pensate anche solo alla biodiversità italiana, dove il gruppo settentrionale è ben distinto sia da quello toscano e centrale che da quello meridionale, soprattutto. Quanto basta per poter parlare di gruppi etnici differenti. Figuratevi se dovessimo parlare di gruppi razziali.”

Racists are sick people who should not be given credibility or a platform to spread their absurd ideas.


can you link me to his K12 data .................as far as I can see he only has K13 and K15
Which means the K12 we have been using has always been dodecad


Only found this
https://ilsizzi.wordpress.com/2018/04/03/a-grande-richiesta-il-breakdown-regionale-italiano/
which is k13

torzio
25-01-20, 03:35
Nobody used Dodecad k12b from what I see on the net, most used is europgenes K13

Athrogenica only use G25 data from what I can see

So, unless someone shows me something else...then the dodecad data was used in this thread and results stand as is

torzio
25-01-20, 03:42
Nobody used Dodecad k12b from what I see on the net, most used is europgenes K13

Athrogenica only use G25 data from what I can see

So, unless someone shows me something else...then the dodecad data was used in this thread and results stand as is

https://yourdnaportal.com/yourgeneticancestry

they do not have K12b ............they do have everything else

Palermo Trapani
25-01-20, 03:48
I went back and ran original Dodecad12 spreadsheet. My top 50 scores. I get similar results to the ones with the Dodecad 12B, except now my South Italian_Siclian distance is 6.18. Thus, I am closer distance wise to 21 Romans starting with R437 (Iron Age) up to Medieval Roman R1290. My closest match is Imperial Roman R131. With the Dodecad 12B Update, My Sicilian score was 4.1 and had 2 other scores of less than that I believe. So as some others have noted, the Dodecad12B update are more accurate. As an FYI, I know nothing about this Sazzi fellow and his blog. Never heard of it till it was mentioned here. But I think if he is the one who did the Dodecad 12B updated spreadsheet, it is more accurate than the original, at least in my particular case.



Distance to:
PalermoTrapani


2.74320980
R131__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


3.34371051
R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


3.96989924
R52___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.16199471
R56___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.28897424
R836__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche


4.28984848
R49___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis


4.75169443
R969__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


4.89823438
R835__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche


4.99327548
R54___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.07506650
R65___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.11293458
R437__Iron_Age_____Palestrina_Selicata


5.11761663
R117__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


5.15501697
R973__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


5.29457269
R122__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


5.50790341
R64___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.57297048
R59___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.59843728
R35___Late_Antiquity_Celio


5.77488528
R58___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.87176294
R118__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


6.10313034
R121__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


6.12587137
R107__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


6.18146423
S_Italian_Sicilian


6.46333505
R113__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


6.62921564
R1544_Imperial_Era__Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese


6.70280538
R436__Imperial_Era__Palestrina


7.18347409
R136__Imperial_Era__Marcellino_&_Pietro


7.19658252
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


7.27409788
R53___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


7.30593594
R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


7.53768532
R60___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


7.64537769
C_Italian


7.73356321
R47___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis


8.48495728
R50___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis


8.50541004
R137__Imperial_Era__Marcellino_&_Pietro


8.60780460
R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


9.21462425
R114__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


9.43943854
R30___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


9.50429903
R970__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


9.50891687
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


9.53776703
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


9.59932289
R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio


9.80881746
R125__Imperial_Era__Casale_del_Dolce


9.86738060
R32___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


9.96273557
R51___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis


10.73444922
R1549_Imperial_Era__Monterotondo


10.83915587
Tuscan


11.27436473
R69___Imperial_Era__ANAS


11.66221677
R1548_Imperial_Era__Monterotondo


11.85414274
R133__Imperial_Era__Marcellino_&_Pietro


12.26351907
R123__Imperial_Era__Casale_del_Dolce

Palermo Trapani
25-01-20, 03:56
Here is my top 50 using K12B updated spreadsheet. I included Roman sources that Jovialis provided and the Italian reference samples and ran top 50. So I still get Sicily at around 6 (surprising) but do get scores for Campania and Abruzzo < 5 (My ancestors are not from there btw, although my family name does seem to populate very heavy in Campania vs Sicilia). So I think the results are reasonably consistent but the K12B updates I think provide better estimates as the variables for the Italian populations are better samples it seems to me. Post 29 above by me is the same run using K12B original data.



Distance to:
PalermoTrapani


2.74320980
R131__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


3.34371051
R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


3.96989924
R52___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.16199471
R56___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


4.28897424
R836__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche


4.28984848
R49___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis


4.43471600
Italy_Campania


4.75169443
R969__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


4.89823438
R835__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche


4.97427660
Italy_Abruzzo


4.99327548
R54___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.07506650
R65___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.11293458
R437__Iron_Age_____Palestrina_Selicata


5.11761663
R117__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


5.15501697
R973__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


5.29457269
R122__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


5.50790341
R64___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.57297048
R59___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.59843728
R35___Late_Antiquity_Celio


5.77488528
R58___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


5.87176294
R118__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


6.06587380
Italy_Sicily


6.10313034
R121__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


6.12587137
R107__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


6.46333505
R113__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


6.62921564
R1544_Imperial_Era__Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese


6.70280538
R436__Imperial_Era__Palestrina


6.82817311
Italy_Apulia


7.18347409
R136__Imperial_Era__Marcellino_&_Pietro


7.18656426
Italy_Calabria


7.19658252
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


7.27409788
R53___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


7.29754740
Italy_Marche


7.30593594
R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


7.53768532
R60___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


7.73356321
R47___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis


8.03091925
Italy_Lazio


8.48495728
R50___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis


8.50541004
R137__Imperial_Era__Marcellino_&_Pietro


8.60780460
R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


9.21462425
R114__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


9.43943854
R30___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


9.50429903
R970__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


9.50891687
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


9.53776703
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


9.59932289
R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio


9.80881746
R125__Imperial_Era__Casale_del_Dolce


9.86738060
R32___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


9.96273557
R51___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis


10.44658317
Italy_Romagna

Johane Derite
25-01-20, 06:11
This is mine. Not so close to any of them:




Distance to:
JD


9.96847531
R969__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


9.99933998
R60___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


10.31137721
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


10.58852209
R1____Iron_Age_____Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


10.68546209
R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio


10.82951984
R121__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


10.87670906
R107__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


11.09423274
R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


11.38183201
R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


11.46652519
R970__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


11.64696956
R59___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


11.65281940
R33___Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto


11.94868194
R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


12.21046273
R836__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche


12.29796731
R835__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche


12.32352628
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


12.37065883
R58___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


12.42960981
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


12.48480276
R1549_Imperial_Era__Monterotondo


12.59679721
R973__Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti


12.63704475
R54___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


13.50418824
R49___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis


13.81486156
R55___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


14.10271960
R57___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


14.14472340
R122__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia

Progon
25-01-20, 15:01
Neither me, it makes sense since how it looks so far i am the least Italian shifted Albanian.

https://i.imgur.com/kV14EeB.png

Dibran
25-01-20, 15:53
I deleted my Gedmatch. Should have probably took my coordinates before doing so lol.

Progon
25-01-20, 16:14
I deleted my Gedmatch. Should have probably took my coordinates before doing so lol.

You did well. Stick with G25, it's more accurate. Gedmatch calculators like Dodecad k12b are outdated, they assign percentages and components without context.

IMO, whole genome sequencing + combination of IBD sharing will be the future of genealogical genetics.

Dibran
25-01-20, 17:40
You did well. Stick with G25, it's more accurate. Gedmatch calculators like Dodecad k12b are outdated, they assign percentages and components without context.

IMO, whole genome sequencing + combination of IBD sharing will be the future of genealogical genetics.

I agree. An example of how autosomal calculators can be flawed is a half Polish and Half Lebanese coming out Romanian in admixture calculators. I think this is exactly what happens in these autosomal calculators. People take the results too literally.

MyHeritage has a cool clustering feature that creates DNA match clusters, not only on who you match, but your matches also matching you and each other. I am not sure if it is as accurate as IBD but my break down was fairly accurate I thought.

Angela
25-01-20, 18:11
Right, there's a good plan: let's blindly trust the program created by another, better known racist. Also, let's pretend that every method doesn't have its flaws.

For those who are humor challenged, that was sarcasm.

Dibran
25-01-20, 19:18
Right, there's a good plan: let's blindly trust the program created by another, better known racist. Also, let's pretend that every method doesn't have its flaws.

For those who are humor challenged, that was sarcasm.

I never said these other methods are not without flaws. Nothing is perfect. I am not privy to the personal beliefs of the guy who created the program. Can we try to judge the science and its accuracy whilst not using the creators personal beliefs to judge the efficacy of the G25 coordinates or IBD?

Is he including something in his program that somehow negates its efficacy as a tool?

I am not as vested in this as others given my schedule, however, almost everyone agrees G25 and IBD are far more useful for real relatedness.

If Gedmatch admixture calculators are more accurate can you explain why mixing a Pole with a Lebanese person would produce a "Romanian Shifted" child? Should he believe he is actually Romanian, or acknowledge the flaws in the tool being used and therefore use other tools that may accurately gauge their ancestry? If I were to listen to half of these calculators, I am Greco-Italian. Yet, IBD and autocluster was more accurate in my case.

Maybe everyone else is different based on the calculator etc.

Angela
25-01-20, 22:14
Oh, please.

I suggest you start looking all these things up in Coop's new book.

All pop gen tools have their benefits and minuses. To think that IBD is the complete answer shows a complete misunderstanding of the science. All of them are subject to manipulation in numerous ways, one of which is the selective inclusion of certain samples and not others. There are many other ways.

When you get a witness on the stand, the first thing you do is test their credibility. If you can show the witness is a known liar and has a bias against the defendant, for example, he's an impeached witness whose testimony should be submitted to the strongest possible scrutiny.

Does that mean it's impossible the person's testimony is true? No, it doesn't, but it means the jury are fools if they don't take that into account.

Another huge red flag is when information for each and every sample, and the runs for each and every analysis run are not provided. Providing them is called transparency, and is why an academic paper or amateur programs which provide them are more to be trusted than those which don't.

Anyone who hasn't figured out that his tools are skewed toward East Europeans is probably in the market for the Brooklyn Bridge at a really great price.

The level of naiete out there about this and thousands of other sources of "information" floating around on the internet is truly unbelievable.

Carlos
06-02-20, 00:14
Distance to:
Carlos


16.42307736
Italy_Tuscany


22.35444828
Italy_Marche


22.46340232
Italy_Lazio


28.15513327
Italy_Abruzzo


30.13375297
Italy_Apulia


30.77117915
Italy_Campania


30.89016454
Italy_Sicily


33.77888164
Italy_Calabria

Carlos
06-02-20, 00:33
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UcEy00edepQ/XjsxNoK8oZI/AAAAAAAACrE/RjUhB5eMnU4aaG_u-zOAwZC4PecuD_KRgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/R105LateAntiquityMausoleodiAugusto.jpeg

Whit MTA

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mlwSCVsRxQA/XjsxbMCsguI/AAAAAAAACrQ/jn7rm0We-4Mi70acUDEc-KS5XOWx8YMkwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/R105MTAmodernpopulations.jpeg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ETamcDr6JGY/Xjs5RmtHXiI/AAAAAAAACvM/sepAjNRVR8I6Q3NjMwV9xGVGXOOM4FanwCEwYBhgL/s1600/R105pca.jpeg
R105 PCA

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GW_zdA5fbDg/Xjs4PI-U9hI/AAAAAAAACvA/KnsvBRp-a4gvPQFDOcPTCnegOyz4qvX-wCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/R105Iberian.jpeg

Comparison of my own kit (gray) with the R105 sample (white)
Green Match
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-x27SuucloHY/Xjs9GexaLdI/AAAAAAAACvY/TfBpWMDNxNoRs0vMv5LSkfomo3VEeWaAQCEwYBhgL/s1600/kitscolors.jpeg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dQKjBoWz5cI/Xjs9O-IoYoI/AAAAAAAACvc/nWZEjZKKH-ou7SIg9SLwTH8S3WjhoZiWQCEwYBhgL/s1600/R105miKIT.jpeg

The result with modern populations that has been published in the sample thread R105

Perhaps now it is in a hard process and everyone puts their good intentions and after all the only thing we look for specialists and amateurs is that the results will one day have a quality of excellence.
According to MTA, it has patented its calculation system and says not to use the K calculators


At the moment between these two results of the R105 sample I am left with the MTA version

Angela
06-02-20, 01:54
Until mta releases a white paper completely laying bare their "patented" algorithm, I'll reserve judgment.

For everyone's information, Dienekes dumped all the data for his calculator ten years ago. That's one of the reasons I trust it; he always practised complete transparency. It's also, of course, why there are so many copies around.

It's also true that for the years he was active, I never caught him in a lie. You might disagree here and there but the analysis was honest, and I'm the most skeptical person you can imagine.