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View Full Version : Massacre in the Pyrenees: Remains of Neolithic immigrants uncovered in modern Spain



kingjohn
12-02-20, 17:21
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-58483-9

table 1:



CET 1
5–6
n.d.
f
J1c3
(-)
BFT peri and post
Phase I
5311–5218 (MAMS 16159)
a,bHaak et al. 2015 aSzécsényi-Nagy et al. 2017


CET 2
 > 20
m?
m
J1c1b
I2a1a
post
Phase II
3933–3709 (MAMS 16160)
aSzécsényi-Nagy et al. 2017 cVillalba-Mouco et al. 2019


CET 3
30–50
m
m
pre-T2c1d2
R1b1
BFT peri and post
Phase I
5294–5066 (MAMS 16161)
a,bHaak et al. 2015 aSzécsényi-Nagy et al. 2017


CET 4
3.5–4.5
n.d.
m
K1a2a
F*
BFT peri and post
Phase I
5294–5068 (MAMS 16162)
a,bHaak et al. 2015 aSzécsényi-Nagy et al. 2017


CET 5
30–50
m
m
N1a1a1
I2a1b1
BFT peri and post
Phase I
5310–5080 (MAMS 16164)
a,bHaak et al. 2015 aSzécsényi-Nagy et al. 2017


CET 6
25–40
m?
m
U3a1
I2a1a
post
Phase II
3946–3767 (MAMS 16165)
aSzécsényi-Nagy et al. 2017 cVillalba-Mouco et al. 2019


CET 7
3–4
n.d.
f
V
(-)
BFT peri and post
Phase I
5303–5075 (MAMS 16166)
a,bHaak et al. 2015 aSzécsényi-Nagy et al. 2017


CET 8
6–8
n.d.
n.d.
H1
n.d.
post
Phase III
3350–3101 (MAMS 16167)
aSzécsényi-Nagy et al. 2017


CET 9
 > 30
n.d.
n.d.
n.d.
n.d.
post
Phase III
assigned stratigraphically



CET 10
50–70
f
n.d.
K
n.d.
AHT and BFT peri and post
Phase I
5310–5078 (MAMS 16168)
aSzécsényi-Nagy et al. 2017


CET 11
6–7
f?
n.d.
n.d.
n.d.
BFT peri and post
Phase I
5312–5219 (MAMS 16163)



CET 12
30–50
m
n.d.
T2
n.d.
BFT peri and post
Phase I
5218–5034 (MAMS 40100)
aSzécsényi-Nagy et al. 2017


CET 13
 > 20
n.d.
n.d
n.d.
n.d.
AHT and BFT peri and post
Phase I
assigned stratigraphically



CET-F22580
 > 20
n.d.
n.d.
n.d.
n.d.
AHT peri
Phase I
assigned stratigraphically



CET-F22567
 > 20
n.d.
n.d.
n.d.
n.d.
AHT peri
Phase I
assigned stratigraphically

Angela
12-02-20, 17:28
I think we already have some El Trocs samples in our list of ancient samples with K12b coordinates.

bicicleur
12-02-20, 23:37
Indeed, these samples are not new.

kingjohn
13-02-20, 00:43
If those samples are old
I do wonder why they waited till 7th in february 2020 to published this paper..... 🤔

bicicleur
13-02-20, 09:03
the paper is not about the DNA, it is about the violence

kingjohn
13-02-20, 11:32
Ok :thinking:what are your thoughts
On mtdna j1c % nice number
Is it typical for european neolithic?...

p.s
i see no h3 here :disappointed:

Gnarl
13-02-20, 12:10
Hm... You know this dating is at the start or just a little bit before the emergence of the Atlantic Megalith Culture. The people who raised all those standing stones along the Atlantic European coast. And they were a Farmer-WHG mix with WHG DNA very lopsided towards a male contribution. I don't see any young women in the remains. Makes one think.

EDIT: Especially in light of this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39658-A-5700-year-old-human-genome-and-oral-microbiome-from-chewed-birch-pitch?p=593244#post593244 and the fact that the middle neolithic was the time of the WHG resurgence. The oldest Atlantic Megaliths also seems to have been in Iberia, the Cromlech of the Almendres. First phase of construction 6000 - 5000 BC I realize I am speculating from far too few data points here, but could we be seeing a snapshot of the early expansion of the Atlantic Megalith Culture here?

bicicleur
13-02-20, 15:09
Hm... You know this dating is at the start or just a little bit before the emergence of the Atlantic Megalith Culture. The people who raised all those standing stones along the Atlantic European coast. And they were a Farmer-WHG mix with WHG DNA very lopsided towards a male contribution. I don't see any young women in the remains. Makes one think.

EDIT: Especially in light of this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39658-A-5700-year-old-human-genome-and-oral-microbiome-from-chewed-birch-pitch?p=593244#post593244 and the fact that the middle neolithic was the time of the WHG resurgence. The oldest Atlantic Megaliths also seems to have been in Iberia, the Cromlech of the Almendres. First phase of construction 6000 - 5000 BC I realize I am speculating from far too few data points here, but could we be seeing a snapshot of the early expansion of the Atlantic Megalith Culture here?

I agree, I have already made the same observations.
I guess Iberia, particularly the Almendres Cromlech is the origin of the Atlantic Megalithism and it is dominated by 3 subclades of I2 : I2a1a1-M26/L159, I2a1b-M423 and I2a2a2-Y6098.
All 3 of them were present in the Iberian and British Neolithic. I2a1b-M423 is also found in megalithic France and megalithic TRB. Both I2a1a1-M26/L159 and I2a1b-M423 are found in Nuragic Sardegna.
The megalithic was an elite society where male kinship was important.

I don't know whether there was a link with Els Trocs, but we see the same Y-DNA appearing.